View Full Version : CQB multidimensional targeting system
Here is the overview diagram
http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/3400/mularget.png
Basic idea
It is an image relaying device which accepts image from the scope/sight viewfinder and relaying the image to the back monitor and two sides monitor. More advance model would have sensor for determining self position and dynamically turn on only one viewer at any time. It would be even better to achieve multiple reflections with nothing but lens, mirrors and additional light sources.
Here is a scenario
Imagine yourself getting pindown on a ground beind an obstacle during a gun battle, you could not stand up and you are unable to line up yourself with your rifle. You could only expose your rifle just above the obstacle to initiate a suppressed fire.
With the side monitor/viewer, you are able to clearly see your enemies have retreated behind their covers, now you take your time to aim carefully with your side monitor without exposing yourself....
I've seen a picture of something like this. It was used for BRM PMI so that the coach could observe the shooters point of aim.
I always though something like this would be cool adapted to a small camera for rifle mounted cameras.
Sounds like the Concealed Engagement Unit by Aimpoint.
Sounds like the Concealed Engagement Unit by Aimpoint.
Aimpoint CEU seems to be designed for the right side concealment only.
Aimpoint CEU seems to be designed for the right side concealment only.
From the description on Aimpoint's site:
The CEU easily rotates from side to side, letting the operator safely look around either right or left-hand corners.
However, as I understand it, you have to remove the CEU from the rifle in order to be able to use your sights/RDS the old fashioned way.
From the description on Aimpoint's site:
However, as I understand it, you have to remove the CEU from the rifle in order to be able to use your sights/RDS the old fashioned way.
Too much manual manipulations.
Isn't that the idea behind the Samson Anglesight?
http://www.samson-mfg.com/ar-15_html/product/AS-STD.html
Isn't that the idea behind the Samson Anglesight?
http://www.samson-mfg.com/ar-15_html/product/AS-STD.html
Thanks. That is exactly what I was imagining. I knew using basic lens system is possible to create such a sight. Although one of my original requirement was zero manual manipulation.
militarymoron
05-17-11, 21:09
i did a writeup on the anglesight here:
http://www.militarymorons.com/weapons/ar.optics3.html#accutact
it's a simple matter to rotate it for left and right side use - i don't think a three-way beamsplitter for 'zero manual manipulation' would work.
EXCELLENT WRITEUP!!! I LOVE YOUR INSIGHTS!!
Your experiences with ANGLESIGHT give me invaluable insights about the limitation of using lens/mirrors/prism lightsplitter for reflecting images to two different ports.
The obvious advantages of this design are simple, robust, shockproof and require no external power. However the limitation is also because it is a simple design: You have no control of how much light go into each port when looking through a dark/shade area through the rear port. Another drawback is the field of view is rather limited.
It would seems a more complex solution is needed to address these issues. One of the solution is integrating electronic and additional lens to balance the lights into these two ports. But I would not know how to address the limited field of view problem.
Another solution (my first post) is to utilize 100% electronic imaging system (with real time image enhancing capability and may be even high speed recording), should be able to address these issue. However the power requirement and durability of such a device would need further thoughts and examinations to better understand the problem. Perhaps the power source could be concealed in a rifle stock....
I still think zero manual manipulation is an important requirement in a CQB where every microsecond count. This feature could be easily implemented by the proposed electronic imaging system.
i did a writeup on the anglesight here:
http://www.militarymorons.com/weapons/ar.optics3.html#accutact
it's a simple matter to rotate it for left and right side use - i don't think a three-way beamsplitter for 'zero manual manipulation' would work.
This device would allow a new gun fighting style that previous would not be possible. Imagine continuous zeroing on target while viewing angle rapidly changing, then one could practice on targets shooting continuously while quickly moving behind a cover in the shortest amount of time.
Another solution (my first post) is to utilize 100% electronic imaging system (with real time image enhancing capability and may be even high speed recording), should be able to address these issue. However the power requirement and durability of such a device would need further thoughts and examinations to better understand the problem. Perhaps the power source could be concealed in a rifle stock....
Cornershot APR? (http://www.cornershot.com/default.asp?catid={71B41A9F-3052-49FB-A498-F039CA6DF358})
If this was a viable tactic/technique/style of fighting, then I'm sure someone would be teaching it. The fact that no one does teach it (or at least teaches it on a regular basis) should be a huge indicator that it might not be a great way of fighting.
If you think it is, then now's your chance to develop this new piece of gear and a fighting style to go with it.
This device would allow a new gun fighting style that previous would not be possible. Imagine continuous zeroing on target while viewing angle rapidly changing, then one could practice on targets shooting continuously while quickly moving behind a cover in the shortest amount of time.
Have you ever done any CQB/offensive room clearing with 4-8 of your friends? It is dynamic in nature and you are moving. Speed and suprise are your friends. So holding up the "flow" to peak around a corner or into a room just isn't going to work.
The other main issue is that your gun has to be pointed around a blind corner to see what is there. This a perfect time for someone to grab your barrel.
IMHO, this type of device is more geared toward ONE man defensive clearing (where you have all the time in the world).
C4
Cornershot APR? (http://www.cornershot.com/default.asp?catid={71B41A9F-3052-49FB-A498-F039CA6DF358})
Cornershot APR is a rifle specifically designed for this purpose. I proposed an accessory that could be mounted on any conventional rifles.
This fighting technique has not been wildly adapted because there is no equipment ever exist that would allow fighters to have continuously target zeroing while quickly transition from one fighting position to another fighting position.
If this was a viable tactic/technique/style of fighting, then I'm sure someone would be teaching it. The fact that no one does teach it (or at least teaches it on a regular basis) should be a huge indicator that it might not be a great way of fighting.
If you think it is, then now's your chance to develop this new piece of gear and a fighting style to go with it.
Magic_Salad0892
05-20-11, 17:31
Have you ever done any CQB/offensive room clearing with 4-8 of your friends? It is dynamic in nature and you are moving. Speed and suprise are your friends. So holding up the "flow" to peak around a corner or into a room just isn't going to work.
The other main issue is that your gun has to be pointed around a blind corner to see what is there. This a perfect time for someone to grab your barrel.
IMHO, this type of device is more geared toward ONE man defensive clearing (where you have all the time in the world).
C4
Even in that scenario, I'd prefer to do it alone, so that If I was attacked I could fight back. Being around a corner allows you to be disarmed, and in a more relaxed mindset IMO, since your focused on observing through your sight.
Whereas when you're coming around a corner, you're in a more offensive mindset. Which (for me) would allow me to react faster.
Unless you're trying to take down a sniper, I don't see a practical application for this thing.
An Undocumented Worker
05-20-11, 17:52
Even in that scenario, I'd prefer to do it alone, so that If I was attacked I could fight back. Being around a corner allows you to be disarmed, and in a more relaxed mindset IMO, since your focused on observing through your sight.
Whereas when you're coming around a corner, you're in a more offensive mindset. Which (for me) would allow me to react faster.
Unless you're trying to take down a sniper, I don't see a practical application for this thing.
Such a device might be more aplicable in a situation where one is pinned down in a foxhole/bunker/behind a berm etc and unable to get a shot off due to suppressive fire from the enemy. This device would allow you to fire back without exposing much of yourself.
But then you have the issue of having your weapon disabled or hands injured when they shoot your weapon.
I thought this was what we have Pvt's for...
:D
You would not just observing through your sight. It would be like viewing through an aimpoint red dot sight where both of your eyes are opened and you would still have your side visions. What's different from an aimpoint red dot sight is that you would still be able to stay on your intended target + observing your surrounding while transitioning from one viewing angle to another viewing angle.
You may even expose your rifle at an unexpected angle. For example, near the floor and point upward for zeroing targets easily.
It would make more sense if you throw a ball, a smoke grenade or a flash grenade as a distraction, before you expose your rifle for targets. Or you have your partner expose his rifle just enough for suppressive fire, then you expose your rifle for searching targets.
The tactics I mentioned is for scenarios where you already known there are hostile elements in the room but not sure how many and where they would be.
Even in that scenario, I'd prefer to do it alone, so that If I was attacked I could fight back. Being around a corner allows you to be disarmed, and in a more relaxed mindset IMO, since your focused on observing through your sight.
Whereas when you're coming around a corner, you're in a more offensive mindset. Which (for me) would allow me to react faster.
Unless you're trying to take down a sniper, I don't see a practical application for this thing.
Magic_Salad0892
05-20-11, 20:52
You would not just observing through your sight. It would be like viewing through an aimpoint red dot sight where both of your eyes are opened and you would still have your side visions. What's different from an aimpoint red dot sight is that you would still be able to stay on your intended target + observing your surrounding while transitioning from one viewing angle to another viewing angle.
I got that part, I understand how the product is used.
You may even expose your rifle at an unexpected angle. For example, near the floor and point upward for zeroing targets easily.
I can't imagine you'd be able to control your rifle fast, precise, or controllably if you were to do that, and in the very unlikely ''sniper'' scenario I mentioned earlier - I'd imagine the assailant would need to be right in front of you, or they'd shoot your gun, (off hand cover) or shoot you. (port side)
It would make more sense if you throw a ball, a smoke grenade or a flash grenade as a distraction, before you expose your rifle for targets. Or you have your partner expose his rifle just enough for suppressive fire, then you expose your rifle for searching targets.
There are MUCH better tactics than this already developed.
The tactics I mentioned is for scenarios where you already known there are hostile elements in the room but not sure how many and where they would be.
There are MUCH better tactics than this already developed, in the military scenario, they'd pop out of cover and fire, where they'd have more control over the weapon. In the LEO scenario they'd need to be able to disorient and arrest people before they're able to resist. In the civilian scenario the distance would be too close for them NOT to notice you, and retaliate.
Responses in red. No offence meant, by anything I've said.
This fighting technique has not been wildly adapted because there is no equipment ever exist that would allow fighters to have continuously target zeroing while quickly transition from one fighting position to another fighting position.
The only weapon systems I can think of that meets your requirement of allowing "fighters to have continuously target zeroing while quickly transition from one fighting position to another fighting position" come on tanks and aircraft. Perhaps you can tell us a bit about your experience and where you're coming from on this. I can't think of any type of situaton I'd be in where I wouldn't want my eyes on the target I was shooting at, esp since I'm a civilian again. And if I'm moving from one position to another, then that's my main concern so that I can get back into the fight effectively.
These are all from my limited imagination.
Perhaps you can tell us a bit about your experience and where you're coming from on this. .
So I'm going to assume you have zero to very little experience in which to base your scenarios on. Gunfights and battles don't really happen the way you are thinking, at least not that often. Sorry, but your idea just isn't that great. You've already been shown some available options to what you want that will give you an idea of how your idea will/will not work. Try them out and then see what you think of this type of accessory for fighting.
There are far better tactics and techniques out there that have been proven time and again over the years and there are many reasons this isn't taught or used.
(the above are my opinions only based on my experience only)
http://www.shootaroundcorners.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_rPfHpVqz8..._embedded#at=28 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_rPfHpVqz8&feature=player_embedded#at=28)
This is the most effective corner sighting system I have seen so far. It has a clearly defined role and it is not designed to replace any existing targeting system.
This is also a drawback because it is not design as a corner targeting system, it is a corner sighting system only. As a result of this limitation, this sighting system is effective only within extreme close quarter distance, anything beyond 50+ yards would be difficult to zero on the target.
Miniature video cam (what fl lens?) on a RDS with wire link to those gamer glasses with a built-in heads up display? Of course there is also batteries to consider. No direct view unless you one o'clock mount another sight. Maybe you cam the one o'clock sight? Eat your heart out Rube Goldberg.:D
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