View Full Version : Anderson Manufacturing AM-15M416 Review
texascoqui
05-17-11, 18:31
Hello all. Wanted to post a user review of a (relatively) new AR manufacturer so that anyone interested might have more to go on. There isn’t much out there on this manufacturer so hopefully this will help…
Warning: Lengthy Review
Background
I am in the army (soft MOS) and used to be a police officer and have become very comfortable and familiar with the M16/AR15 platform. For my first personal AR I wanted a rifle of high quality, reliability and value. Somewhere along my research I came a cross the DI vs. Piston discussion. Drawing from personal experience with the Army -issued rifles I saw merit in the piston design and started leaning in that direction and was looking hard at a POF. Needless to say, the price was hurting my conscience but, I believe in the cry once philosophy.
I then ran across the Fail Zero brand of components and I liked the argument: Piston-like reliability, greater “inherent” accuracy due to fewer inertial movements (piston), and easier maintenance because there would be no oil in the upper. The only problem was that I would have to home-build this rifle as the components don’t come in a complete rifle (to my knowledge). This would require a learning curve and an investment in some tools.
Shortly after that, I came across Anderson Manufacturing and their offerings.
Anderson Manufacturing is based in Hebron, KY. They have been in the machining business for over 40 years but, because of the downturn in the economy were going to have to shut down until they decided to enter the AR-15 market. At first they produced OEM parts for other manufacturers, but then decided that they could produce a better rifle under their own brand. The “better” part--in my opinion--came in the form of a proprietary treatment of the upper, BCG, and barrel called RF85. RF85 is the treatment produced by Better Than New for the racing industry. In a nutshell, the performance claims are almost exactly like those of Fail Zero. Also, they apparently will only sell matched uppers/lowers in order to assure tight fit. Lastly they only use 7075 aluminum for their upper and lower receivers. Their story and claims of quality assurance helped me decide to take a chance on a new manufacturer. (Plus I’m a sucker for a good underdog story)
Anyway, SPECS HERE (http://www.atdmachineshop.com/m4.htm)
Arrival
I purchased the rifle from Bud’s Gun Shop as they were a little less than retail: $1150 shipped. Here’s what came (minus the owners manual which is nothing more than photo copied pages bound in a clear report cover--no problem there since shiny booklets drive up costs)
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_T0XAb2EwpQs/TdL2ItE6p9I/AAAAAAAAABM/sf_iMi6KOus/s800/DSCN0281.JPG
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_T0XAb2EwpQs/TdL-Ke81BJI/AAAAAAAAAB8/3aSBlf4yDd0/s640/DSCN0269.JPG
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_T0XAb2EwpQs/TdL5Bz7oWbI/AAAAAAAAABk/bpb6ixg-ses/s800/DSCN0280.JPG
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_T0XAb2EwpQs/TdL5IPtg01I/AAAAAAAAABo/ojLoSv4tofc/s800/DSCN0293.JPG
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_T0XAb2EwpQs/TdL5Qy19COI/AAAAAAAAABs/Ggmtl8sn47A/s800/DSCN0294.JPG
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_T0XAb2EwpQs/TdL5Zcz7p0I/AAAAAAAAABw/mS29obEn9_s/s800/DSCN0299.JPG
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_T0XAb2EwpQs/TdL5bapyy5I/AAAAAAAAAB0/x7yD0JSySNI/s800/DSCN0300.JPG
Initial Inspection
Not horrible but, less than spectacular. The first thing I noticed was a strange divot (approx. 1mm deep) in the upper receiver’s left side.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_T0XAb2EwpQs/TdL-5vF--OI/AAAAAAAAACA/8R1qzu7o5oo/s800/DSCN0275.JPG
I had mixed feeling about this because while I new this was probably only cosmetic and would not affect performance I had high expectations for my little underdog rifle.
Next, I noticed that the upper-receiver/hand-guard rail alignment was off.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_T0XAb2EwpQs/TdL-8Op-3YI/AAAAAAAAACE/XkMxuUGjAgw/s800/DSCN0285.JPG
Again, detrimental? No. but easily caught by a final inspection process. I assumed the threads had been factory secured with some sort of thread glue (more on this later) and thought I might overcome the mis-alignment by adjusting the sights.
Other than these two (actually three but, read on) issues the rifle felt solid. The upper and lower fit very well with virtually no wobble and only the slightest thread of observable light from the opposite side. Proprietary components such as the free float tube and rails are very solid and perfectly finished. The trigger is definitely better than the Army issued rifles I have had to use. I would estimate about 1-2 mm of travel before a clean break. The travel is a little creepy if I’m really taking my time but, under stressful conditions it’s a non-factor anyway. The flash hider is of the type which has a flatter side for prone shooting; it was timed correctly.
The RF85 treatment is undetectable to the eye or to the touch. This was very surprising to me and a little underwhelming. I though there would be some super slick feeling or something but it honestly felt no different than any other BCG I have handled. The proof would have to be in the pudding.
I wiped the rifle down and cleaned the BCG and bolt with dish-soap and water (you read that correctly--its in the owner’s manual) and dried it off, shot an email off about the issues I found and went to the range the next day.
Range Report #1
The good: 150 rounds from a bone-dry bolt with zero FTF/FTE
The Bad: Hand guard “walked” until it was turing freely
The ugly: The upper rail-screw closest to the upper receiver was actually hitting the gas tube under it.
I started the day with the tried and true--if possibly unnecessary--barrel break in: shoot, clean, repeat. Incidentally, accuracy was horrible for the first ten rounds; don’t know what that was about. After the break in was complete however, it was shooting very “acceptable” 1 inch groups at 50 yrds. with open sights. (actually best group was 0.5 inch). Everything was going great and when I felt the sights were shooting well at 50 I moved back to 100.
At that point I had to push the windage all the way to the left to stay on paper. This was due to the rail misalignment. It was clear I would have to make alignment adjustments my self. Then, on the last ten rounds of the day I was missing every shot. Puzzled, I gave the rifle a good once over and discovered that the hand guard had loosened and was spinning freely. Additionally, when I turned the hand guard I noticed that it was hitting something at the “top” of the revolution. Some additional tinkering revealed that the rear-most rail screw was the culprit. So now I had to back the screw out in order to align the rail properly. Again, not catastrophic but definitely not spectacular.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_T0XAb2EwpQs/TdL-9o8UgXI/AAAAAAAAACI/Iyc5Admnxe4/s800/DSCN0289.JPG
On the upside, the rifle cycled 150 times without any oil at all with no hiccups. While I concede that this is not conclusive assurance of utmost reliability I felt that the treatment was doing what it claims to do. I will run it harder next time and continue to asses the treatment’s effectiveness.
The Call
That same day I received a call from Tom Steffner, V.P. of sales at Anderson Manufacturing. Mind you, it’s Saturday. The conversation ended with him stating that he wanted me to send the complete upper back and he would send me a new one via FedEx. Hmm! That was cool! A personal call, on a Saturday from the V.P. of sales and a commitment to send a new part. Ok, now I wasn’t feeling so bad about going with a newcomer company. Maybe the QA issue wasn’t systemic and I just got the rifle that slipped through the cracks. To boot, in a subsequent email he stated that I would receive my new upper with an extended charging handle and some extra railing for my trouble.
The New Upper (that wasn’t)
Well, I sent it via USPS 2-3 day mail and received it via UPS ground. Total turn around was eight days. Not bad but, not what was stated. What I pulled out of the box was my original upper parts attached to a new upper receiver. Again, not bad but, not what was stated. Well, at least there were the little bonus pieces for my trouble right? Nope, nowhere to be found. There must have been a disconnect between sales and the floor or something. The hand guard was tight with the rails well aligned and the new upper receiver is flawless but, now I wondering if they just torked the rail screw down into the gas tube or something and what about their commitment to make sure the upper and lower receivers are “matched”? Well, can’t have it all, I guess.
In Tom’s defense, later emails concluded with a recommitment to send the extra goodies. These parts arrived today as promised; fit and finish are superb. Conclusion up to this point: good intentions do not a great company make. I don’t feel that I’ve been wronged but I gotta wonder if going with a top tier manufacturer, or building my own would have made me a happier AR owner from the beginning. :confused: I told Tom that I would be reviewing the rifle and my experience with A.M. With very few reviews out there, I would think every bit of good publicity would be carefully guarded, especially since most consumers place high value on end-user reviews.
Range Report #2
Not much to report here. Another 150 rounds through a bone-dry bolt with zero failures. Best accuracy form MBUS sights is 3-inch 10-round groups at 100 yds. with four rounds within 1 inch of each other. When I get glass on this rifle and it breaks in all the way I suspect 1 inch groups will be easy. I’m very happy with accuracy. The rifle is now what it is supposed to be and overall I’m satisfied.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_T0XAb2EwpQs/TdL_Zl5wiiI/AAAAAAAAACM/NGmvsq8gQRg/s800/DSCN0041.JPG
Conclusion
If you don’t care to “troubleshoot” your purchases this isn’t the manufacturer for you. While they obviously have the ability to put out a very good product, I think they are suffering from “mom and pop” syndrome. I’m sure they are used to dealing with industry but, if they are going to earn their place among the top tier AR manufacturers they are going to have to shift their thinking to meet the high demands of the consumer market. They have a great philosophy, high quality potential and good intentions. IMHO they need a serious revising of their QA program and better communication between departments. At this point I will wait to see what others’ experiences are before making a decision to purchase from them again.
Hope this helps someone.
This is what happens when a machine shop thinks it knows how to make a rifle. Instead of concentrating on some wonder finish, they should have hired someone that knows how to make an AR and trained there employees.
Well at least they made it right somewhat.
Seems like they just threw parts together though.
Hello all. Wanted to post a user review of a (relatively) new AR manufacturer so that anyone interested might have more to go on. There isn’t much out there on this manufacturer so hopefully this will help…
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_T0XAb2EwpQs/TdL5IPtg01I/AAAAAAAAABo/ojLoSv4tofc/s800/DSCN0293.JPG
If you don’t care to “troubleshoot” your purchases this isn’t the manufacturer for you. While they obviously have the ability to put out a very good product, I think they are suffering from “mom and pop” syndrome. I’m sure they are used to dealing with industry but, if they are going to earn their place among the top tier AR manufacturers they are going to have to shift their thinking to meet the high demands of the consumer market. They have a great philosophy, high quality potential and good intentions. IMHO they need a serious revising of their QA program and better communication between departments. At this point I will wait to see what others’ experiences are before making a decision to purchase from them again.
Hope this helps someone.
Looks like M4 ramps on the barrel extension and not on the receiver. Not a great start for a company with "high quality potential."
A couple of questions:
What ammo did you use, and why were you running it bone-dry?
Eurodriver
05-17-11, 21:40
LOL, thanks for letting me know (like I didn't already) to never even give these guys a second look. What a joke. This is the absolute worst review of a new product I have ever seen.
At first I thought you were advertising, but if you work for the company you'd be fired immediately. :jester:
Edit: Thats not to say your review itself was of bad quality. Just the product.
A couple of questions:
What ammo did you use, and why were you running it bone-dry?
Didn't you see the big green tag that says DO NOT OIL?
Leonidas24
05-17-11, 21:52
Before anyone else gets to it, a few questions:
1. Is the barrel chrome lined?
2. FA or SA bolt carrier?
3. Buffer weight?
4. Barrel steel? Nvm, it's 4140.
5. Receiver extension mil-spec or commercial diameter?
6. HPT/MPI?
The only time I will ever listen to any of the magic, "no oil" finish and treatment sales pitches is when the owner of the company in question assures me that his personal automobile's engine has said finish/treatment etc on the internals, and he's been driving without oil for a year without any problems.
Until then, all these finishes NEED oil, it's just a matter of when. And that is, in my experience, FAR sooner than any of the salesmen are willing to admit.
Didn't you see the big green tag that says DO NOT OIL?
Yes. Skimmed over the part of the text pertaining to the finish on the bolt carrier, and didn't catch it.
Whootsinator
05-17-11, 22:16
Great, ANOTHER company from my state spilling shit into the market... Only this time it's about twenty minutes away from my door! :bad: We already have Double Star, we don't need these guys.
At least Accurate Armory is on better track, so there might be hope for a quality KY rifle yet.
sounds like a bad way to spend $1150.
Eurodriver
05-18-11, 01:43
Link to Oak Ridge Testing Results
http://www.atdmachineshop.com/Letter-steffner.pdf
http://www.atdmachineshop.com/rf85.htm
I'm interested in this coating, and your test of 150 rounds.
Mike Pannone fired over 2,400 rounds in a standard BCM 14.5" upper with no lubricant and no malfunctions.
Why is this RF85 necessary?
Looks like M4 ramps on the barrel extension and not on the receiver. Not a great start for a company with "high quality potential."
Good catch I didn’t notice that! This company clearly knows nothing about making a rifle.
Before anyone else gets to it, a few questions:
1. Is the barrel chrome lined?
2. FA or SA bolt carrier?
3. Buffer weight?
4. Barrel steel? Nvm, it's 4140.
5. Receiver extension mil-spec or commercial diameter?
6. HPT/MPI?
My guess would be no on all.
Why is this RF85 necessary?
It’s not.
I considered getting one of these as my first AR but after researching I have settled on DD M4 V5. Picking it up today. :) Hope I made the right choice on my first AR.
I considered getting one of these as my first AR but after researching I have settled on DD M4 V5. Picking it up today. :) Hope I made the right choice on my first AR.
You Did.
Looks like M4 ramps on the barrel extension and not on the receiver. Not a great start for a company with "high quality potential."
Correct. M4 barrel extension with an A3 receiver.
Pass.
C4
Great, ANOTHER company from my state spilling shit into the market... Only this time it's about twenty minutes away from my door! :bad: We already have Double Star, we don't need these guys.
At least Accurate Armory is on better track, so there might be hope for a quality KY rifle yet.
Pretty much my thoughts exactly. Since they are so close why don't you go see if you can smack some sense into them
mkmckinley
05-18-11, 21:46
Holy crap, this might be the best first post I've ever seen. This carbine looks like a pretty decent example of the fact that all ARs are not created equally.
texascoqui
05-19-11, 20:08
Hello again all and thanks for responding to my review...
This is what happens when a machine shop thinks it knows how to make a rifle. Instead of concentrating on some wonder finish, they should have hired someone that knows how to make an AR and trained there employees.
I honestly didn't think the review was as bad as all that. I hope you all don't miss the positives I mention about the rifle. Like I concluded originally, overall I'm satisfied with the "Final" quality of the parts. IMHO Anderson Manufacturing's problem is not one of quality, but quality assurance. I imagine that even the top tier manufacturers have products that wouldn't pass a close final inspection; it's having that process in place which would have saved A.M. the embarrassment in this case.
I really believe they are committed to producing an excellent rifle, they just need to up their game a little.
Looks like M4 ramps on the barrel extension and not on the receiver. Not a great start for a company with "high quality potential."
I too noticed this upon first inspection and felt a little let down ( my fault for going with an unknown manufacturer). It would be nice to have the cuts in the receiver however, from what I read, they are not necessarily essential to a well-running rifle.
Also, I reassembled the rifle without the BCG and placed a loaded magazine in it just to see if the bullets' path necessarily struck that part of the upper receiver before being pushed into the chamber. To my surprise, it does not. The tip of the bullet is always "caught" by the barrel's feed ramps. So, while i'm sure they can't hurt, at least in a semi-auto it doesn't seem essential.
Before anyone else gets to it, a few questions:
1. Is the barrel chrome lined?
2. FA or SA bolt carrier?
3. Buffer weight?
4. Barrel steel? Nvm, it's 4140.
5. Receiver extension mil-spec or commercial diameter?
6. HPT/MPI?
Barrel is not chrome lined but, treated with the RF85. If independent tests are to be believed this will effectively extend the life of the barrel by 1.5 times.
Bolt is SA
Don't have a scale and the buffer is not marked so, I'll assume H
**
Receiver extension is not slanted in the rear and has thicker threads toward the rear so I'm gonna say Mil-Spec
Link to Oak Ridge Testing Results
http://www.atdmachineshop.com/Letter-steffner.pdf
http://www.atdmachineshop.com/rf85.htm
I'm interested in this coating, and your test of 150 rounds.
Mike Pannone fired over 2,400 rounds in a standard BCM 14.5" upper with no lubricant and no malfunctions.
Why is this RF85 necessary?
Read this article and by far this was the most surprising read about the AR platform I've ever come across. Thought I did a lot of research but somehow I missed this one. Thanks for the reference.
In light of it, my 300 round "test" does seem to fall very short of conclusive and I'll continue to reserve my opinion on the RF85 treatment until I have a MUCH higher round count.
I will be making the modifications recommended in the study.
Thanks again for everyone's input.
I think H buffers are usually marked 'H'. Unmarked ones are generally CAR buffers. Safe to assume that that's a CAR buffer, assuming they didn't swap one of the steel weights for a tungsten.
yes, as a general rule if there are no markings on the buffer, it is a carbine buffer
as for the overall "quality" of the rifle, I would be VERY disappointed if I were you. Its good that they tried to make right the worst of the wrongs, but there are still MANY more that should never have been there in the first place.
if they are going to earn their place among the top tier AR manufacturers they are going to have to shift their thinking to meet the high demands of the consumer market
this is one of the biggest understatements I have read in a while IMO. Based on what I see here, I thing one would be better off or at least as good going with an RRA or Bushmaster
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_T0XAb2EwpQs/TdL5IPtg01I/AAAAAAAAABo/ojLoSv4tofc/s800/DSCN0293.JPG
Honestly, as a machinist, I wouldn't have sold that Upper. It drives me crazy to see "chatter" marks on parts.
Years ago when I started in this trade an owner of the company I worked at told me "workmanship" is the last line on every Quality Control sheet. It's just as important to have a nice looking part as a dimensionally good part.
Mike in MN
To be quite honest I did not find any positives but some big negatives. No I don’t consider the coating a big plus. I would rather have known good parts that were assembled properly. Its one thing for the home builder to use an A3 upper with an M4 ramped barrel, it is quite other for a manufacture to do so. For the money you spent you could have gotten a very nice carbine from a company that knows what it is doing.
Yikes! $1150 for that is just a flat out ripoff.
According to this video (http://www.rf85.com/), the RF85 stuff increases the cyclic rate of fire of an AR-15 by 23%. Taken by itself, this is not a good thing.
And frankly, I question the veracity of this claim. The videos were clearly taken with a Casio high speed camera like mine, which is a consumer-grade item, and I would think that Oak Ridge National Laboratory would have better equipment than I do.
In the video, we see the "untreated" BCG slow down rapidly when it encounters the top round in the mag, and then bounce off the barrel extension. The "treated" BCG doesn't slow down and doesn't bounce. This is not the behavior of an identically-configured rifle firing substantially similar ammunition, with the only variable change being less friction. Note that the "untreated" BCG was relatively clean and lubricated with CLP. Again, it did not behave as such.
Using their stated cycling time of 108 milliseconds for the untreated BCG, plus my own observations of 12ms between shots on full auto using an M16A1 FCG, the "untreated" rifle cycled at exactly 500rpm. Their stated cycle time for the treated BCG was 83ms, which gives us a cyclic ROF of 638rpm. Both of these are low for a standard M4 type weapon firing 5.56mm ammunition, or even the same weapon firing weak .223 ammunition.
Finally, I observed some video skipping in the "untreated" BCG. I've never had this problem with my several Casio high speed cameras. It occurs right as the bolt is moving into battery. If this was a video error, the test would definitely need to be redone.
In fact, basing rate of fire claims on an examination of a single shot is very shaky; the results can vary from shot to shot. I fire 5 or 10 shots on video before making definitive ROF statements.
I think I'd rather use a Bushmaster than that POS.
Anderson Manufacturing has since hired a gunsmith to work within their firearms area..... that would be me.....
the mistakes that went out with this paticular firearm have been addressed and will not show up in the future.
as far as the M4 cuts in the star chamber but not the receiver this is because the barrels are purchased from ER Shaw and that is the star chamber they use and ADM makes the receivers in house.... In non-full auto or burst fire AR's feed ramps cut in the receiver are not needed if you are using a good quality magazine (like the P-mags that come with the rifles we sell).
Thank you OP for the honest review...
Littlelebowski
07-13-11, 17:38
And Colts are going for $200 less.....
as far as the M4 cuts in the star chamber but not the receiver this is because the barrels are purchased from ER Shaw and that is the star chamber they use and ADM makes the receivers in house....
Thank you OP for the honest review...
And ADM can’t cut M4 ramps?
And ADM can’t cut M4 ramps?
It is being discussed for future runs on receivers....
And Colts are going for $200 less.....
Until QC improves greatly, this is about the best thing said in this thread so far.
Until QC improves greatly, this is about the best thing said in this thread so far.
it has improved greatly....just saying...that is one of the reasons why I am there
Littlelebowski
07-13-11, 20:07
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=84821
it has improved greatly....just saying...that is one of the reasons why I am there
Not to be a contrary ass or anything, but there's a lot more that has to happen before that is *proven* then just showing up on an internet board and saying that it's so.
Not to be a contrary ass or anything, but there's a lot more that has to happen before that is *proven* then just showing up on an internet board and saying that it's so.
Granted...and only time will tell...but I can answer for myself and say..I will do my best to make it so....
I would have sent that back within five minutes of receiving it. That said, im not into that fancy stuff, I know CLP and DI work so that's what im sticking with... in ARs at least.
GermanSynergy
07-13-11, 22:31
I would have been very unhappy getting a carbine that looked like it was assembled by a drunken hippo, considering one can buy a new Colt 6920 for less. PASS.
That quality is crap..sorry..but it is..NO oil treatment...yea right....give me a break
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070101184039/scifi/images/b/b3/Agent_Smith.jpg
"Ahh Mr Anderson, you dissapoint me..."
Mr. Goodtimes
07-14-11, 00:38
What a piece of shit. So these ass hats give the market a rifle with a 4140 non chrome lined barrel coated in some proprietary unicorn tears wonder coating; no M4 feed ramps, a rail that's on sideways and a giant green tag that reads "DO NOT LUBRICATE." Oh and it costs $200 more than a Colt.
This rifle is the biggest over priced piece of FAIL I have seen in a while. If I were you I would have boxed that piece of shit back up, sent it back to the clowns that assembled it and demanded my money back. Maybe it's best that Anderson Manufacturing goes out of business.
Anderson Manufacturing has since hired a gunsmith to work within their firearms area..... that would be me.....
the mistakes that went out with this paticular firearm have been addressed and will not show up in the future.
as far as the M4 cuts in the star chamber but not the receiver this is because the barrels are purchased from ER Shaw and that is the star chamber they use and ADM makes the receivers in house.... In non-full auto or burst fire AR's feed ramps cut in the receiver are not needed if you are using a good quality magazine (like the P-mags that come with the rifles we sell).
Thank you OP for the honest review...
First, I believe you have to put your affiliation with this company in your signature line.
Second: You call yourself a gunsmith and call it a "star chamber?" What in **** is a "star chamber"?
Use correct nomenclature if you want to be taken seriously.
$1150 for a piece of crap like this? You've got to be kidding....
First, I believe you have to put your affiliation with this company in your signature line.
Second: You call yourself a gunsmith and call it a "star chamber?" What in **** is a "star chamber"?
Use correct nomenclature if you want to be taken seriously.
$1150 for a piece of crap like this? You've got to be kidding....
a barrel extension...
Littlelebowski
07-14-11, 06:06
I wouldn't be surprised if this wonder finish came off with ordinary cleaning solvents like brake cleaner.
Anderson Manufacturing has since hired a gunsmith to work within their firearms area....
With all due respect..... A manufacturing engineer should be used in these situations, not a gunsmith...
Name 1 professional team who uses this coating in their engines..... NHRA Top Fuel or FunnyCar???? NASCAR Cup Team????
BTW, for $150 more, you can buy a Colt 6940. WITH sights.
The problem with this steaming pile of poo, is that the assumptions behind it are flawed: And is an example of yet another unscrupulous and/or misguided manufacturer taking advantage of mythology about the AR system.
No lube?
Morons....
My $900 dollar SW MP15 has better quality than that..No lube...its like slick 50 or whatever else wonder additive in cars....im still up on this NO LUBE REQUIRED:lol::lol::lol::lol::suicide2::suicide2::suicide2::lol::lol::lol:
TacticalIntervention
07-19-11, 14:10
I have agreed to TxE the system and give them feedback on what is good and bad.
The RF85 treatment is one of the main reasons I have agreed to this as its been used recently in auto racing to very good results.
I found talking with the Anderson Group on the phone great as they came off as wanting to do what ever it talkes to make a great AR System
wolf_walker
07-19-11, 17:10
Not taking any side, but odds are this is a legitimate friction reducing treatment (there are quite a few these days), and it probly does work.
Here for example. http://www.circletrack.com/drivetraintech/ctrp_0902_quick_change_rear_end/index.html I don't drive in circles but I've set the gear mesh on enough rear diffs to appreciate what they are talking about.
I also know this is no indication of weather it's suitable or beneficial for a firearm, especially an AR. I can certainly see why someone would think (and hope) so however. Looking forward to hearing further reviews.
As someone that's been through this as recently as a year ago when our product (the modular selector) first came out, I urge you gents to be patient and give it a fair chance.
There can be preconceived notions and prejudice against a new product from a relatively unknown company. We (Battle Arms) are thankful that most of you guys on m4c gave us and the product a chance and time before kicking us in the butt, but there were doubters and naysayers, and we understand the reasons very well. The folks on m4c did not jump on the negativity bandwagon and run us out of town.
Now that our position in the industry is much stronger, we are almost immune to this one time only experience with this specific product. When we come out with something new, we may go through it again :jester:
A company is going to make mistakes along the way, some in the beginning, as long as it's willing to learn from them, it will make good products and, we as consumers, can benefit from it ;)
wolf_walker
07-19-11, 18:14
You guys all have pretty big balls to pony up the dough and time and especially to submit to criticism like this. My hats off to all you guys that do so.
wetidlerjr
07-19-11, 19:55
As someone that's been through this as recently as a year ago when our product (the modular selector) first came out, I urge you gents to be patient and give it a fair chance.
There can be preconceived notions and prejudice against a new product from a relatively unknown company. We (Battle Arms) are thankful that most of you guys on m4c gave us and the product a chance and time before kicking us in the butt, but there were doubters and naysayers, and we understand the reasons very well. The folks on m4c did not jump on the negativity bandwagon and run us out of town.
Now that our position in the industry is much stronger, we are almost immune to this one time only experience with this specific product. When we come out with something new, we may go through it again :jester:
A company is going to make mistakes along the way, some in the beginning, as long as it's willing to learn from them, it will make good products and, we as consumers, can benefit from it ;)
Well said ! :thank_you2:
I have agreed to TxE the system and give them feedback on what is good and bad.
The RF85 treatment is one of the main reasons I have agreed to this as its been used recently in auto racing to very good results.
I found talking with the Anderson Group on the phone great as they came off as wanting to do what ever it talkes to make a great AR System
My only thing is racing cars and guns are completely different animals...the pressures we are dealing with in a rifle is so much more than what an engine produces...thats why I am so weary about this no lube treatment....I wish the best of luck for them...i do
Here's one of the major problems with "no lube":
Lubrication provides five functions to a machine with clearanced parts:
1. Reducing friction
2. Cooling
3. Cushioning impacts
4. Cleaning
5. Corrosion protection
1, 4 and 5 can be assumed away, based on the assumption that this miracle treatment actually does reduce friction, will persist infinitely, effectively protects against all forms of corrosion (including mechanical corrosion of the miracle treatment itself, which stretches incredulity) and the gas piston minimizes the need for #4 on the BCG, itself.
I'lll even grant a partial on #2, even though it's been repeatedly proven by non-piston fanatics that the heat difference at the BCG is fairly insignificant.
However, what, precisely will compensate for the impact cushioning in the upper, that is normally taken up by lube? Also, how about the LPK area? is that also to be lube-free?
Also, what is the life of this miracle treatment? Does it exceed the life expectancy of the underlying metal?
wolf_walker
07-19-11, 22:32
Those are excellent points. As was referenced in the article where much success was had in a helical cut ring and pinion gear differential setup treated with this stuff, it was not no lube, but much less lube, was needed. In this case parasitic drag reduction is a big plus, along with the reduced op temp from lowered friction.
If not "no lube" perhaps "less" lube is feasible?
We aren't using WD40 (willingly) because it'd have to be used quite often as it's not much of a lube, we use better lubes, that have to be applied less often. Surely a coating that reduced the amount/frequency of lubrication is a worthy venture, no?
It's a thought. Reducing friction has been a big thing to engineers for many decades now.
There, I just made an outline for the marketing department of the next outfit to sell a piston gun and/or one with a low friction coating.
:)
Again...we are talking race cars to guns....guns have more pressure operating pressure than a rear end/transmision/engine in a race car
Also in the test conducted by Oak Ridge National Lab...they fired 19 mags if i read correctly with 20 rounds...thats only 380 rnds of ammo
If this treatment suppose to last the lifetime of the rifle...I want to see 5000+ rnd test. I want to see a complete take down/inspection, wear mark tests etc.
When you look at the video of the two firing test..you can clearly see that the untreated video is "cut" slowed down and the other video is not :suicide2:
RF85 reduces friction 85%, so where is the 15% wear going to in the gun without any other lubricant? If it requires no lube on the gun, then why on earth are they putting gear oil still in the rear end? The temp in the rear end doesnt reach operating temps like an AR doing three 30rnd mag dumps.
I am just trying to point out some issues with the data that is presented here in front of us. Again YOU CAN NOT REFERENCE RACE CAR BEHAVIORS TO WEAPONS, it is not valid...especially since they are still using oil with RF85 treated components
wolf_walker
07-20-11, 07:36
Like I said, less oil, less often, sounds appealing to me. Car isn't a gun but s machine is a machine. I'm interested in how it works out.
Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk
The coating is apparently being used in rear end differentials with gear oil. If the coating is so good, run the rear end without any oil and see what happens. Call any of the rear axle/differential manufacturers and see if they are ok with running their products "dry".
I keep hearing "racing industry" come up.. Who????
Who specifically uses this stuff in racing??? Name one professional team who uses it. The rear end mfgr. that AM got a "testimonial" from makes products for dirt late models and sportsman racers.
Not one Cup team uses these products, most all use steel axle housings (non-quick change) and carriers from Strange Engineering in Illinois.
Where are the professional Formula 1, NASCAR, NHRA racers who use this coating in lieu of oil/lubrication????
For T&E purposes, I will provide uncoated Top Fuel pistons to any coating company who feels their product will last in a Nitro burning hemi. Combustion chamber pressures can exceed 70,000psi in the cylinder.
We can run the pistons in September @ the Charlotte NHRA race, and post the T&E results with photos here on M4C.
PM me if you are interested.
wolf_walker
07-20-11, 09:17
All I could find in the amount of time I was willing to spend searching for it was the above linked circle track article.
And nothing survives long in a top fuel motor is my understanding, no?
Isn't much of a test. All someone has to do is shoot the gun. A lot.
We build M96 Porsche motors that use coated pistons, not with this stuff, but similar. I've done high output turbo gas and diesel using thermal barrier coatings on piston tops. They work. In an engine.
I'm all ears about there performance in a firearm.
TacticalIntervention
07-20-11, 09:30
Well time will tell as I plan to beat the s..t out of thier M4 and shoot as many rounds as I can as fast as I can
And nothing survives long in a top fuel motor is my understanding, no?
We build M96 Porsche motors that use coated pistons, not with this stuff, but similar. I've done high output turbo gas and diesel using thermal barrier coatings on piston tops. They work. In an engine.
I'm all ears about there performance in a firearm.
There are basically 2 coatings that live in the nitro environment. Because of these coatings (and proper tuning) , the engines and components are living longer than ever. Pistons are used for several events, not several runs.
Turbo Gas and Diesel engines do not come close to generating the strains and stresses that are put on a nitro engine.
The engineering and technology available today for professional racing is astonishing. Some of it would greatly benefit the firearms industry and raise the performance level of some firearms platforms IMO, providing the proper engineering, application, and documented T&E were performed.
Not miracle "solutions" with little knowledge and no backing data such as has been presented
Well time will tell as I plan to beat the s..t out of thier M4 and shoot as many rounds as I can as fast as I can
^This
Should be good. Eagerly await the report. My guess is it will be good for a few laughs.
H
wolf_walker
07-20-11, 12:27
There are basically 2 coatings that live in the nitro environment. Because of these coatings (and proper tuning) , the engines and components are living longer than ever. Pistons are used for several events, not several runs.
Turbo Gas and Diesel engines do not come close to generating the strains and stresses that are put on a nitro engine.
The engineering and technology available today for professional racing is astonishing. Some of it would greatly benefit the firearms industry and raise the performance level of some firearms platforms IMO, providing the proper engineering, application, and documented T&E were performed.
Not miracle "solutions" with little knowledge and no backing data such as has been presented
Pretty impressive you can re-use pistons now with some coatings. I've seen pistons and spark plugs with one run on them from years back, wasn't pretty. Big money racing is a bit quicker to adopt than firearms guys though. Not un-rightfully so I suppose, life and death and all. But that's what most of us civi's are for, long slow T and E.
Have you thought about having some weapon parts coated with the stuff your using on top fuel pistons just for the heck of it to see how they do or are the serious one's cost prohibitive still?
Have you thought about having some weapon parts coated with the stuff your using on top fuel pistons just for the heck of it to see how they do or are the serious one's cost prohibitive still?
This...............
texascoqui
08-03-11, 13:59
Hello all. I'm pleased to see the conversation this has generated. Hopefully this has helped AM understand the impact of one user's review and given them the feedback they need to fine tune their products.
Since the initial review I have only had the opportunity to shoot once more and that was only another 70 rounds of Lake City Green Tip.
AND...
Some fancy Hornady match ammo through a hastily mounted 12X...
Here's the pic of the 5-shot group at 100:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-4Bd3QAb8nP8/TjmXUBKdYoI/AAAAAAAAADc/HIbCWHgOHsY/s640/IMG_0648.JPG
This was an unpleasant read, for multiple reasons
comments about machining chatter, geez I have seen colts that look like they were made with a 10 year old dull high speed steel endmill,
Seems to shoot good,
it is way too bad it is a total piece of shit:confused:
keyboard diarrhea. I want my time back.
Littlelebowski
08-03-11, 15:32
This was an unpleasant read, for multiple reasons
comments about machining chatter, geez I have seen colts that look like they were made with a 10 year old dull high speed steel endmill,
Seems to shoot good,
it is way too bad it is a total piece of shit:confused:
keyboard diarrhea. I want my time back.
Whereas your comments above are the epitome of "eloquent."
It looks like a rifle I could put together for about $800 but mine would have a better barrel.
wolf_walker
08-03-11, 19:30
It looks like a rifle I could put together for about $800 but mine would have a better barrel.
Yeah but you'd have to oil it.. :D
GermanSynergy
08-03-11, 19:40
A 10 shot group is a better gauge of accuracy, FYI.
In terms of "fine tuning", they need to get their shit together in a market saturated with high quality AR's at a lower price point. (This isn't directed at you, just a general statement).
The original rifle looks like it was made in a sweat shop in Southern China.
Hello all. I'm pleased to see the conversation this has generated. Hopefully this has helped AM understand the impact of one user's review and given them the feedback they need to fine tune their products.
Since the initial review I have only had the opportunity to shoot once more and that was only another 70 rounds of Lake City Green Tip.
AND...
Some fancy Hornady match ammo through a hastily mounted 12X...
Here's the pic of the 5-shot group at 100:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-4Bd3QAb8nP8/TjmXUBKdYoI/AAAAAAAAADc/HIbCWHgOHsY/s640/IMG_0648.JPG
I considered getting one of these as my first AR but after researching I have settled on DD M4 V5. Picking it up today. :) Hope I made the right choice on my first AR.
Yes you did.
This was an unpleasant read, for multiple reasons
comments about machining chatter, geez I have seen colts that look like they were made with a 10 year old dull high speed steel endmill,
Seems to shoot good,
it is way too bad it is a total piece of shit:confused:
keyboard diarrhea. I want my time back.
Lots of AR's these days "shoot good."
They also "shoot good" for less money, and are assembled by people who know what they hell they're doing and how to choose quality components.
The comments here may be "harsh," but what is one to expect in a market saturated with everyone and their grandmother coming out with an AR? If you expect people to pay over 1,000 for a product, when you charge more for your product than other companies that are more knowledgeable and have an established track record, you better make damn sure you've done your homework.
The burden is on the company to prove that they have a reason to exist when they decide to dive into an extremely competitive marketplace. I, as a consumer, have no obligations to hold a company's hand, read them a story at night, and tuck them in before bed.
texascoqui
08-03-11, 22:43
Ahhhhh. Capitalism!!! Breath it in fellas, breath it in!!!
wetidlerjr
08-04-11, 06:39
This was an unpleasant read, for multiple reasons
comments about machining chatter, geez I have seen colts that look like they were made with a 10 year old dull high speed steel endmill,
Seems to shoot good,
it is way too bad it is a total piece of shit:confused:
keyboard diarrhea. I want my time back.
Life is hard; wear a helmet. :cool:
Last year these guys set up a bunch of troll acounts at barfcom to push their product(got busted too).Here's a "review" i found on Youtube,i guess some "foreign governments" have them in service.Also,they come with Magpul "clips" :laugh:.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qg3Eqh_wAkA
Are they like clips for potato bags?
Are they like clips for potato bags?
You know better Duffy,they're for the microwave popcorn!Tactics like they used it was piss's me off.Claiming to be the "best" ect...right off the bat.You are honest about your products,i purchased one and was WAY more happy with it than i would have believed!No B.S and pure quality/inovation is what i like ;).
Last year these guys set up a bunch of troll acounts at barfcom to push their product(got busted too).Here's a "review" i found on Youtube,i guess some "foreign governments" have them in service.Also,they come with Magpul "clips" :laugh:.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qg3Eqh_wAkA
I've yet to see a "review" by Jeff where he didn't like the product he was supposed to be testing. They are ads, more than anything; his followers get quite aggressive when you bring up this fact.
I'm even less impressed by this thing after seeing that video. What OEM's? Lots in circulation, what are the figures? Foreign governments? What foreign governments and in what capacity? More unsubstantiated fudd bullshit.
You know better Duffy,they're for the microwave popcorn!Tactics like they used it was piss's me off.Claiming to be the "best" ect...right off the bat.You are honest about your products,i purchased one and was WAY more happy with it than i would have believed!No B.S and pure quality/inovation is what i like ;).
Ah, so sorry! :D Thank you for your kind words :)
TacticalIntervention
08-04-11, 10:09
Just an update because of PM questions on this.
No rifle has arrived yet but Leupold has sent me a scope so I can also do precision testing on rifle when it arrives
I promise full and severe testing/reporting on the rifle when it shows up
TacticalIntervention
09-16-11, 13:32
OK, Stan Pate and I, both from US National F TR Team, have had one of these rifles for about three weeks now. Accuarcy is outstanding.
The rifles are running very well. I have around 500 rds through mine without cleaning with only two malfunctions that where caused by a single bad magazine of a different manufacture. With good magazines the rifle is running very well. Stan has had zero malfunctions with the P Mags. He put a big old 20x scope on his and shot for groups with 82 grain Bergers. Groups were all under .50 moa with several in the .25 moa. Mine has a 1.5-5 MK4 on it and is holding 1" groups for 20 rds at 100 yards. Thats the best I can do with the CQB reticle in that scope so not a perfect test on my part.
The future ARs I am told will have M4 feed ramps.
The fit and finish of the rifles are very good.
The metal treatment feels slick but not oily. It does not come off in your hands.
My plan over next month ( Minus leaving end of next week for US F Class Nationals) is to beat snot out of this rifle and see how long it goes without cleaning.
Will keep this up to date best I can but dont expect anything for 2-3 weeks
eternal24k
09-16-11, 14:32
any photos of the wear (or lack of?) on bcg?
TacticalIntervention
09-16-11, 16:51
After it starts to get gummy or I hit near 3000 rounds I will tear down, clean and then do photos. Too soon to check because part of this is how long it goes without problems
TacticalIntervention
10-07-11, 18:29
1500 rds, still running great. Still have not cleaned it
TacticalIntervention
11-05-11, 13:18
OK I promissed to beat the crap out of the Anderson rifles and I have.
In this process, Stan Pate, also of US National F TR Team, and I where invited back to Andersons to beat up a couple of rifles.
We spent two days throwing the rifles in mud and water, then shooting the rifles while still dripping wet( We let water run out of gas system before shooting for safety). I lost count of how many times we stomped and or dropped the rifles in some serious sand/clay mud and then shot them. We NEVER CLEANED OR OILED THE RIFLES. The rifles performed very well.
We also toured the manufacturing plant and I have to tell you I was surprized but who other top AR type rifles Andersons was making uppers and lowers for. The plant is huge and they where making all kinds of serious equipment from Up Armor kits for Humvees, to Vault doors to highly procise DOD contracts. We where impressed.
Andersons filmed our shooting and a short segment should air on The Outdoor Channel some time between Thanksgiving and Christmas. When I find dates I will update this thread.
Now the real important stuff. Anderson's has listened to you and I. They now have M4 feedramps on all its ARs. Every part inside is current Milspec. The barrels are now there own spec with the RF85 treatment. I am working with them to treat a 1911 to see how the treatment holds up to a hand built daily use beat to death pistol.
Accuaracy of the rifles is fantastic. Stan made up some handloads for a 16" and was getting .25 moa groups, with a massive high power ( looked ridiculous on tops scope) just for group testing. I was just shooting crummy ammo with a MK4 1.5-5 scope on it and held 3" circle from magazine prone at 100 yards for 30 rds.
In the beat/mud tests we used a 20" Anderson with MK4 3.5-10 Coyotee colored M110 scope, with Alumina Covers and a MK4 1.5-5 on a 16" Anderson.
One of the most impressive thing was I kept dropping the 20" with 3.5-10 MK4 into 2.5-3' of water and not even the scope caps leaked. Lense where still dry after two days of mud and water on them
I am impressed!
It will be interesting to see how their new .308 will hold up.
Hopefully it will be a good product for them...and us.
Every part inside is current Milspec.
This term is often used with the best intentions, but can create problems. Is this per the manufacturer? What specs for what parts?
Every part inside is current Milspec.
Any part coated with RF85 could not possibly be milspec as the coating is not part of the spec.
Whether or not is it better than milspec is another matter but this term gets brandished a bit too much IMO.
TacticalIntervention
12-19-11, 11:46
Words aside the system just freakin works great.
Took apart the 16" and carefully looked at all the parts after right at 2500 rds without cleaning. Cleaned with soap and water and use compressed air to dry off. All normal wear surfaces look new still.
As to Milspec. Just repeating what they said. I am more of a shooter trainer than metal guy. They use current mil spec parts/materials and then RF85 treat them. Its not a coating. This may end up a game changer.
I am sending them a 1911 to have RF85 treatment done to see how it works on a hard use carry pistol.
On the rifles I have ordered a 308 with 26" bbl to compete in F TR Class and that should tell me just how accurate thier system can be
eternal24k
12-19-11, 11:49
Words aside the system just freakin works great.
Took apart the 16" and carefully looked at all the parts after right at 2500 rds without cleaning. Cleaned with soap and water and use compressed air to dry off. All normal wear surfaces look new still.
how about some pics?
Also looking forward to a review and pics of the 1911 if you get it done
Words aside the system just freakin works great.
Took apart the 16" and carefully looked at all the parts after right at 2500 rds without cleaning. Cleaned with soap and water and use compressed air to dry off. All normal wear surfaces look new still.
As to Milspec. Just repeating what they said. I am more of a shooter trainer than metal guy. They use current mil spec parts/materials and then RF85 treat them. Its not a coating. This may end up a game changer.
I am sending them a 1911 to have RF85 treatment done to see how it works on a hard use carry pistol.
On the rifles I have ordered a 308 with 26" bbl to compete in F TR Class and that should tell me just how accurate thier system can be
Where are you located?
TacticalIntervention
12-22-11, 20:04
Bay Area of California
OK I promissed to beat the crap out of the Anderson rifles and I have.
In this process, Stan Pate, also of US National F TR Team, and I where invited back to Andersons to beat up a couple of rifles.
We spent two days throwing the rifles in mud and water, then shooting the rifles while still dripping wet( We let water run out of gas system before shooting for safety). I lost count of how many times we stomped and or dropped the rifles in some serious sand/clay mud and then shot them. We NEVER CLEANED OR OILED THE RIFLES. The rifles performed very well.
We also toured the manufacturing plant and I have to tell you I was surprized but who other top AR type rifles Andersons was making uppers and lowers for. The plant is huge and they where making all kinds of serious equipment from Up Armor kits for Humvees, to Vault doors to highly procise DOD contracts. We where impressed.
Andersons filmed our shooting and a short segment should air on The Outdoor Channel some time between Thanksgiving and Christmas. When I find dates I will update this thread.
Now the real important stuff. Anderson's has listened to you and I. They now have M4 feedramps on all its ARs. Every part inside is current Milspec. The barrels are now there own spec with the RF85 treatment. I am working with them to treat a 1911 to see how the treatment holds up to a hand built daily use beat to death pistol.
Accuaracy of the rifles is fantastic. Stan made up some handloads for a 16" and was getting .25 moa groups, with a massive high power ( looked ridiculous on tops scope) just for group testing. I was just shooting crummy ammo with a MK4 1.5-5 scope on it and held 3" circle from magazine prone at 100 yards for 30 rds.
In the beat/mud tests we used a 20" Anderson with MK4 3.5-10 Coyotee colored M110 scope, with Alumina Covers and a MK4 1.5-5 on a 16" Anderson.
One of the most impressive thing was I kept dropping the 20" with 3.5-10 MK4 into 2.5-3' of water and not even the scope caps leaked. Lense where still dry after two days of mud and water on them
I am impressed!
I know Stan and he is going to let me try out his rifle.
Any idea on the filmed portion? I'd like to check it out.
TacticalIntervention
01-06-12, 14:12
They where airing on Outdoor Channel. Its a very short segment and I have no idea of when it airs.
Stan had a video up on facebook a while back I think this is it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpSnUHuYPOM&context=C3d619c5ADOEgsToPDskL-xNw-DHX90i0am0_wvVTS
TacticalIntervention
01-06-12, 20:42
Before anyone asks, neither Stan or I where paid for that. We became sold while beating the products up
Any update on your experience with Anderson Manufacturing?
I've been looking at some 308's and no one seems to have any of Anderson/s in stock.
Mr.Anderson
11-01-12, 19:01
I found these guys while searching for a stripped lower to build.
Of course, I would LIKE to buy the lower from "Anderson" due to the most OBVIOUS reason 1st :D
But... I cannot justify it based on name alone if the quality is not up to snuff.
I'm thinking that the stripped lower is of the same quality as any other lower? (w/in reason, of course between comparable lowers)
The lower and a LPK is the only thing I'm looking at right now to buy from them.
I like the name and the logo heh.
I got a stripped Anderson lower, it went together fine with a DD lower parts kit and a BCM mid upper. Got it cheap, it works like any other stripped lower I've built
Mr.Anderson
11-01-12, 19:09
*ETA*
What's the finish like? If it's 7075 forged aluminum, it's the same as any big brand, right?
Finish looks good it looks as good as my lmt lower
Mr.Anderson
11-01-12, 19:36
haha
looks like I'm not the only one having prob' with the site tonight!
PM inbound
I just bought one of their stripped lowers at a gun show. I knew nothing about them, but it was only 85$ and the machineing looked very clean.
I put it together with a CMT/stag parts kit and it is all a really nice fit and finish.
That said after reading the OP review I am embarrassed to own this lower.
Mr.Anderson
11-01-12, 21:21
Like I said, I'm just looking at the ... "roll mark"? I guess it's called?
I like the "symbol" of the horse and think it's pretty cool I could have my last name on my lower receiver w/out having to pay "extra" for engraving.
AS LONG as the lower is made to mil spec or better. Which, I believe it is. I'm waiting for someone to clarify on the whole 7075 T6(?) forged aluminum being the same as say, Colt, for example. Which, I believe it is.
I'm not looking into getting anything else from them, except, MAYBE the LPK. I'm still researching to see if there is much of a difference between any of them. Barring, of course, match triggers, etc.
The lowers are fine. I have built about 25 of them and have never had any spec problems with the holes. I have used parts kits from Daniel Defense, G&R and Colt in the lowers. Finish is good and they seem to be tight on any upper receiver that you put on it (not that it is an issue).
I have an Anderson lower on my 18 inch precision gun. Magpul UBR and Colt LPK with a Geissele SD-E.
Taprackngo
11-02-12, 01:10
Great review, although I can't help but wonder with Colt's at only $995 they would have been a much better choice. Hope it shoots well for you.
Taprackngo
11-02-12, 01:15
Great review, although I can't help but wonder with Colt's at only $995 they would have been a much better choice. Hope it shoots well for you.
Our SWAT team uses the Anderson line of rifles with a custom 10" barrel and suppressor. They are really amazing rifles. I just purchased my own and got rid of my Armalite because I got a heck of a buyer.
FeltaDorce
01-14-13, 18:47
Isn't Anderson the manufacturer that got caught making fake accounts at Arfcom to ask about their lowers? Why is no one suspicious of the OP or the "machinist that was hired to fix all this" or the "whole SWAT team" guy on this post? This whole thread is fishy.....
I bought an Anderson lower right before Newtown and will be using it for my first build. The fit is very tight with a Noveske MUR. The finish is excellent. No machining marks to speak of. All things being equal, I would say it is a solid lower.
However, all things are not equal, and if any good lower wasnt worth it's weight in gold right now I would dump this one and choose something else for my first build. Reputation means something, and this company doesnt have a very good one.
That said, if I stumbled upon another one somehow I would pay $200 for it without thinking twice. What can I say, I am a whore for a good lower right now...
Isn't Anderson the manufacturer that got caught making fake accounts at Arfcom to ask about their lowers? Why is no one suspicious of the OP or the "machinist that was hired to fix all this" or the "whole SWAT team" guy on this post? This whole thread is fishy.....
Yeah real fishy coming from the guy who works at the department where the SWAT team uses the rifles. I'm not SWAT but am on K9 so I'm issued a G36.
Obviously if this is how new members are treated I'd imagine its a great forum.
I'd be more than happy to post pictures if your heart so desires.
I'll also make sure to post a picture as soon as they finish mine this week.
But yes, several departments around here are going to their rifles because they are local, and yes the SWAT team all got rid of the MP5s for them.
ffhounddog
01-14-13, 19:35
Yeah real fishy coming from the guy who works at the department where the SWAT team uses the rifles. I'm not SWAT but am on K9 so I'm issued a G36.
Obviously if this is how new members are treated I'd imagine its a great forum.
I'd be more than happy to post pictures if your heart so desires.
I'll also make sure to post a picture as soon as they finish mine this week.
But yes, several departments around here are going to their rifles because they are local, and yes the SWAT team all got rid of the MP5s for them.
K9 with a HK G36 and SWAT with MP5's? Seems backwards.
K9 with a HK G36 and SWAT with MP5's? Seems backwards.
How is it backwards. SWAT used to be outfitted with MP5s and several members with the G36. When the team switched to the custom Anderson Rifles with 10" Barrels/suppressers, the G36s were distributed to certain members of the department. Everyone else in the department either carries actual M16s or Rock River AR15s.
How long have you been a cop ffhound dog? In an active shooter scenario my G36 will be much more beneficial than a dog. And are you saying SWAT teams don't use MP5s?
SWAT Teams using MP5s. Shocking isn't it.
I simply come here to speak of my experience with Anderson Rifles, but apparently it's Tabboo to be a new guy and offer his opinion on a rifle he has shot several times and just purchased a personal one to add to the gun collection. It appears even more Tabboo to carry a G36 if you have a dog according to some.
And as you see our SWAT Team used MP5s. Shocking isn't it.
I simply come here to speak of my experience with Anderson Rifles, but apparently it's Tabboo to be a new guy and offer his opinion on a rifle he has shot several times and just purchased a personal one to add to the gun collection. It appears even more Tabboo to carry a G36 if you have a dog according to some.
What department do you work for?
What department do you work for?
You have been PMed reference info and answer to your question.
ffhounddog
01-14-13, 20:48
How is it backwards. SWAT used to be outfitted with MP5s and several members with the G36. When the team switched to the custom Anderson Rifles with 10" Barrels/suppressers, the G36s were distributed to certain members of the department. Everyone else in the department either carries actual M16s or Rock River AR15s.
How long have you been a cop ffhound dog? In an active shooter scenario my G36 will be much more beneficial than a dog. And are you saying SWAT teams don't use MP5s?
Just seemed backwards because most SWAT that I have been around would have a carbine before they would take a MP5. Most people with a MP5 would have other missions to do like the medic or breecher. You did not mention any AR's just G36 and MP5's. Just seemed from the post that SWAT had MP5's and the rest of the officers had G36's
Not a police officer just a Soldier who has trained other nation's police officers and soldiers.
Just seemed backwards because most SWAT that I have been around would have a carbine before they would take a MP5. Most people with a MP5 would have other missions to do like the medic or breecher. You did not mention any AR's just G36 and MP5's. Just seemed from the post that SWAT had MP5's and the rest of the officers had G36's
Not a police officer just a Soldier who has trained other nation's police officers and soldiers.
Ok I see your point and appreciate it. I was just shocked when I tried to talk about my experience with the rifle. Am I bias? Possibly, because we use the rifle. I just didn't expect people would jump up and down and start speaking of fishy scams because I happened to have fired it.
And like I stated in a PM to another member I was being vague due to our work policy on Internet use and speaking about who we are and the department. It's for our protection.
Either way I just spent money on one and am excited to get it this week. For those that would rather purchase a different rifle, by all means go ahead. I used to have a STAG Arms I built, moved onto Armalite and now am excited to have moved on to Anderson.
Relyt, if you were shocked that we would be skeptical of you, as a first time poster, posting positively and presumably knowingly about a known shyster product like Anderson, then you are either a tad naive or delusional. What exactly were you expecting? We have all seen the BS that Anderson laid out there, as you have, so are we just supposed to assume that some new poster with Anderson experiene and a SWAT/K9 background is on the up and up?
Because of the problems I have seen in the thread I have not experienced. No where did I say to go buy an Anderson and sell your BM, Smith, Double Star yada yada yada.
I also never said they were the greatest guns on the planet just worked amazingly well for us. I'm excited to receive mine and that I'm surprised about the negativity this thread has brought.
To each his own though.
Our SWAT team did not go with the R85 treatment so I will be interested to see what it potentially offers.
ramairthree
01-14-13, 22:52
I used two of their lowers in builds this fall.
They were fine.
(and, I would have bought ten times as many if I had known how bare the shelves would be now)
I once had a question for them and via their website the customer service emailed back immediately.
That is the only direct experience I can relay with this company.
Because of the problems I have seen in the thread I have not experienced. No where did I say to go buy an Anderson and sell your BM, Smith, Double Star yada yada yada.
I also never said they were the greatest guns on the planet just worked amazingly well for us. I'm excited to receive mine and that I'm surprised about the negativity this thread has brought.
To each his own though.
Our SWAT team did not go with the R85 treatment so I will be interested to see what it potentially offers.
The negativity is high because some people on here, like you, don't only shoot as a hobby but depend their life on the rifle. When a rifle you depend on to defend yourself with comes looking like this, it is unacceptable. I have nothing against Anderson but hopefully they pay more attention and put together rifles that they would use to protect themselves and others. If it's working for your department now maybe they have improved.
The negativity is high because some people on here, like you, don't only shoot as a hobby but depend their life on the rifle. When a rifle you depend on to defend yourself with comes looking like this, it is unacceptable. I have nothing against Anderson but hopefully they pay more attention and put together rifles that they would use to protect themselves and others. If it's working for your department now maybe they have improved.
You're right and we could have this debate all day. Like you I'm sure, I have a plethora of guns. My favorite is a KimberCustom TLE RL ii. Is it by far the best and most accurate 45 I have? Yes, but would I trust it over a glock? No. Glocks are idiot proof. Lol.
SWAT took a chance with the rifle and had a lot of feedback into developing their final product. Like I said, it's not a standard one you can order from them. However, they deemed it life saving practical.
Yes some complained I'm sure about losing fully auto MP5s that can group the size of a fist in a blink if an eye, but some just hate changed. To me, I love owning a rifle that was developed "down the street."
That's why I also used to buy double star products. Support ping home town and surrounding areas. I'm sorry others have had a problem but in my experience up to this moment, I've been in love.
Relyt,
Hopefully you can see where the questions about this company are coming from. A lot of members here use their tools in defense of themselves or others. So quality of parts, quality control, business practices, etc all come into play here. Your agency is getting good, working rifles. That's a good thing. The issue is what about the rifles they sell to others? The ones they don't take the extra time to check and double check to make sure it meet a common standard of reliability.
Also, just ignore ffdumbdog. It will help you out in the long run. ;)
Picked up my Anderson Rifle today. First of all, customer service was great. They took me back to Armory and showed them finishing the rifle for me. I asked them to place an additional 2 picatinny rails down the sides of the rifle so I had more than just the top and bottom (they did.) I then saw that they also had the tactical charging handle that was also RF85 treated. I asked them to take out the regular charging handle and throw in that one. They did no problem.
They gave me a walk around of the factory for a 2nd time. During the tour (no I did not take pictures so I'm sure 90% of you won't believe me), but they area producing rifles in a HUGE order for a brand name company. They are the budget ARs by are not stamped Anderson... May have a horse on it though.
Anyway, without further wait here is my new baby that I took to our range.
Did anything band stand out to me with it during my 100 round volley? No. I enjoyed it and it shot incredibly great groupings. Yes, I forgot to take a picture of that too. We sighted it in at 25 yards so we made sure that we shot about 1 1/2 low. Magpul sights I purchased on my own and I am rather pleased with.
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t38/Tystib03/IMG_0807_zps034bdd1d.jpg
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t38/Tystib03/IMG_0804_zps189f0f37.jpg
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t38/Tystib03/IMG_0803_zpsa4912241.jpg
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t38/Tystib03/IMG_0802_zps00fa5254.jpg
In the third pic the upper and lower look severely misaligned. What horse roll mark did you see? Horse head or body? GH
Maybe not misaligned for function but it the raised area through the mag release looks sloppy. GH
FeltaDorce
01-15-13, 17:16
You have got to be effing kidding me.... "Anderson is so cool that they make Colt lowers?!"
Now I am absolutely certain that anything in this thread is total and complete BS, probably being put here on fake accounts started by people at Anderson.
Here's a tip for you: Instead of spending all day making fake accounts and BS stories about how many "SWAT Teams" all use these and how "Anderson is gearing up for Govt contracts" and whatnot, why not actually go out and try to make a decent rifle? Then let them speak for themselves.
Littlelebowski
01-15-13, 17:30
I'd buy a lower right now but SWAT endorsements mean nothing to me nowadays.
endorsed by Cooder County SWAT Team!!!!
In the third pic the upper and lower look severely misaligned.
Exactly. And that is a matched set of upper/lower from the same company. Egad. How embarrassing.
I consider myself very fortunate that my Noveske MUR fits perfectly with the one Anderson lower that I have (there is no such misalignment). This is not the first such misalignment that I have seen with Anderson lowers. If I got another one I would make sure I used another MUR with it.
You have got to be effing kidding me.... "Anderson is so cool that they make Colt lowers?!"
Now I am absolutely certain that anything in this thread is total and complete BS, probably being put here on fake accounts started by people at Anderson.
Here's a tip for you: Instead of spending all day making fake accounts and BS stories about how many "SWAT Teams" all use these and how "Anderson is gearing up for Govt contracts" and whatnot, why not actually go out and try to make a decent rifle? Then let them speak for themselves.
Lol that's fine that you think I'm spending all day making fake accounts. I don't have any reason to lie and have realized I don't care about your opinion any more.
Wouldn't it make sense for the SWAT TEAMS that are located in surrounding counties to use a hometown rifle? Sure why not.
And in no way shape or form am I making a rifle. Just bought one and use it. I'm not part of the company so I'm not going to say who they are making them for because I'm not sure when they will release that info. Believe it or not, no weight on my shoulders. I just had a good time taking a walk through of the factory's and seeing there two separate production rifles. One for Anderson and one for someone else.
To each his own. I'm going to work now, you know the one that requires me to work 3rd shift and not make rifles.
Five_Point_Five_Six
01-15-13, 18:42
http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd28/ideasoforder/Skeptical-Cat.jpg
I will share some unbiased information about this company without getting into the BS going on here.....
Anderson DOES make uppers and lowers for other larger manufacturers. I know this first hand. Although I believe that they should stick to making parts and not complete rifles, their lowers and uppers are very well built. I have never experienced an issue like the above picture with the upper and lowers not matching.
I was digging around in my parts pile this weekend and put this lower together from spare parts I had lying around.
UBR Stock
Colt lower parts kit minus FCG
Daniel Defense FCG
Crappy Ergo grip
KNS pins ( I never used these before as all my guns have Geissele triggers in them)
http://i1014.photobucket.com/albums/af269/CoryCop25/ARs/B8D718FE-ACB3-4853-ABA7-24E6E4976DD6-2833-000001FC5EBCCB23.jpg
http://i1014.photobucket.com/albums/af269/CoryCop25/ARs/CCB4EEB5-746F-4537-8EC8-7569740DE7D7-2833-000001FC5BE1640E.jpg
^^^^^^It is relevant. Another member with a higher post count and obviously respect also can confirm Anderson makes parts for larger gun manufacturers as I was saying. They don't make the entire weapon but they do make a decent amount of it. Heck I think Wilson or Walter actually makes the barrel.
Heaven forbid I actually like the gun. I'll apologize ahead of time if I don't like the same music as you too.
So far what I have established out of this very upstanding and classy forum is that:
1) When a person mentions a couple SWAT Team use the weapon he is lying and insane.
B) I guess you'd also be shocked to hear the military generally goes with the lowest bidder.
2). If I am purchasing a rifle from them, I'm actually the VP and probably not really buying the rifle even after posting pictures.
3). Mention that the machine shop has a contract to produce parts for a major manufacturer I must be insane. Even though others have mentioned that they do AND I took the tour of the facility and saw it myself.
I wonder if anyone will believe Toyota, Lexus, and Scion have parts produced in the same factory. Or heck, what about the new SUBARU Brz AND SCION Frs. Guess what, some of the parts in those identical cars are stamped subaru and some Toyota. Yes, in BOTH of them!!!
I'll leave this conversation with the following and will try my best not to waste as much time on this website. I'm sorry for the good members out there but what a heck of a way to welcome a new member. There are several forums I have been on for years and the quality of people is bar none and very impressive. I recently joined another gun forum for .45s after that collection and once again the people seemed very helpful and awesome as we were all there for the same reason. However, in less than 2 days on here I have ran into several members and topics that have been viewed that just shock me.
Will this rant fall on deaf ears? Probably. After all, it seems some people just want to have a giant &:@- measuring contest.
Hey guys, guess what, I don't have an EOTECH on my rifle. It's probably because I am part owner of VORTEX SPARC and enjoy the product.
For those of you with an open mind, keep building and having fun with your hobby. I more than love my gun collection and plan to keep growing it. I will just ask permission from some of these type a personality jack nuts before I add anything else to my Winchester Safe. I am allowed to have a winchester safe correct?
Does the maxwell rib bother me? Well now that I notice it I may run up and talk to them but from my understanding, it is cosmetic only. As for the gun it self, there is no play in the connection and it was grouping very impressively. Now that I have optics on I may swing up and compare its grouping to the G36 being we don't have iron sights on the G
Maybe not misaligned for function but it the raised area through the mag release looks sloppy. GH
The mag release is a custom one I bought which was engraved. Did not come from Anderson.
really? http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t38/Tystib03/IMG_0803_zpsa4912241.jpg
I am part owner of VORTEX SPARC
IF this is the case, you need to disclose that in your signature line, per forum policy, please.
The DoD goes to the lowest competitive bidder capable of producing an item to spec AND in the quantities required, plus a wheelbarrow full of other specifics that puts that makes the oft-misused "lowest bidder" line a gross oversimplification and a rhetorical non-starter. Until you're more experienced with DoD procurement practices in general, and DoD small-arms procurement in particular, I'd avoid using that as a rhetorical gambit, particularly in comparison to local LE agency procurement practices.
"My other internet forum exeperiences were X, ergo ALL of my internet forum experiences should be X..." is a helluva leap in logic. Also, drop the idea that post-count indicates an ability to contribute; it does not. What it DOES indicate is how familiar with forum policy/practice any given member may be, and yours gives a pretty good read on why you think your symbolism-over-substance argument should be swaying folks, and why you're getting visibly upset that it isn't.
I read this thing from the beginning: If you want to take personal affront at what is a healthy and reasonable level of skepticism regarding their complete guns, that's your call, just like what gun you buy or what safe you use. Folks get emotionally attached to their purchases, be they good or ill; it happens.
There's no shortage of companies that make decent or better-than-decent components, but can't put a gun together. If they've changed any of the major red flags I saw on Page 1, alone, you need to cop to the fact that you've done NOTHING to show their improvement of their product, choosing instead to engage in verbal fencing that lacks evidence. You put up photos of the exterior of your gun; how about some of the interior, and a list of technical specifications to show that they're doing something besides hobby-guns?
The fact that they could miss something as glaringly obvious as the upper/lower matching up like that makes it entirely reasonable to wonder what else they might have missed. Take a step away from fretting over folks talking smack about your baby, and provide something concrete that indicates that they've managed to put together something better than that bucket of smashed sphincters on Page 1.
If any of the folks that work there still refer to a barrel extension as a "star chamber...," then skepticism isn't just reasonable, it's virtually required.
GH41, you quoted an entire post, with photo....to only post two bloody words ("Not relevant.")? Stop wasting our bandwidth, please.
No I'm not part owner of SPARC. I was saying that by me simply speaking of a specific product, I am accused of being the VP.
At no point did I ever say gun x was better than y or z. I was just stating I purchased anew gun and was rather excited. I bought it because we use it and I think it is more than cool to have a gun with the same city you live in/ around posted on it. I don't see the wrong in it.
From what I understand the rifles have improved. They did a lot of q&a with several departments to ultimately decide what to fix.
If you guys don't like my rifle, that is fine. I don't like corevvettes. My comparing this forum to others in not a misnomer. We are all/ should be gun enthusiast here to have a good time and talk about items.
This is where my defense nature comes in. When I am accused that brand x can not be used by TEAM y when poster z does not live around, work for, or watched the teams in action.
Heaven forbid I got on here and said that I carry 2 glocks to work and this turned into a SIG is better than colt that is better than glock etc
I came from the old school M16A1 and A2 era. Didn't know much about how they worked. If I had a major problem I would just take it to the armorer.
Flash forward to last year. I thought it was time to get back into the black rifle arena but was smart enough to know what I didn't know.
This site and others helped me to know what to look for in a quality weapon, and what particulars I should never compromise on.
I compiled a list of every manufacturer I could find and researched every one of them in depth.
Anderson Arms was one of the first companies I crossed off the list.
One bit of advice to a newcomer in this arena is to to your research before you make the purchase, not after.
Mr.Anderson
01-16-13, 18:54
The ONLY reason(s) I was looking to get an Anderson Lower was, for the name (as I've already beat to death) and they were available.
After seeing the "3rd picture" I'm certainly glad I made the decision I made;
And that was to forgo building a rifle and I went and bought a BCM 20" from G&R (can't say enough about those folks!).
Relyt, you mentioned two things that bugged me, even as someone that is new to the "engineering" side of the AR, if you will.
I used to have a STAG Arms I built
I may be off base here because of the disclaimer "I Built", but I have a STAG Arms factory gun. And having bought the BCM I can definitely tell you there IS a difference in AR's!
Which leads me to the second thing;
Wouldn't it make sense for the SWAT TEAMS that are located in surrounding counties to use a hometown rifle? Sure why not.
I couldn't disagree more...
I would expect someone in harms way to A: want to use the ABSOLUTE BEST they could and B: not give money to people making sub par equipment (at darn near the same price as some of the better known, trusted, and tested, brands) just because they are local. I mean... I used to buy all my gas when I lived in KY from a mom & pop gas station (paying $0.20 more per gal!) trying to keep my money "local". So I know where you're coming from with that.
But I would NOT apply this to something that not only am I staking MY life upon, but those of my peers and citizens.
I know Corycop personally. I'm positive that his observation is indeed UN-biased and I know how much time he has spent researching this stuff. IF I would have spent some of my time researching, I wouldn't have bought my STAG :D
And, I can't blame that on Cory either, haha - as I bought the STAG w/out discussing it with him. And, of course, he had the "Tier 1 vs Others" talk with me afterwards. And I did not turn into a defensive buyer. I learned from it. As we ALL should when we make a mistake.
Relyt, ya gotta put on your thick skin when you come here :)
But it's all for the best. Far as I can tell some of THE BEST in the biz are on these forums. And if someone calls BS or says something is junk, I'm prone to believe them. Here. I like that.
The ONLY reason(s) I was looking to get an Anderson Lower was, for the name (as I've already beat to death) and they were available.
After seeing the "3rd picture" I'm certainly glad I made the decision I made;
And that was to forgo building a rifle and I went and bought a BCM 20" from G&R (can't say enough about those folks!).
Relyt, you mentioned two things that bugged me, even as someone that is new to the "engineering" side of the AR, if you will.
I may be off base here because of the disclaimer "I Built", but I have a STAG Arms factory gun. And having bought the BCM I can definitely tell you there IS a difference in AR's!
Which leads me to the second thing;
I couldn't disagree more...
I would expect someone in harms way to A: want to use the ABSOLUTE BEST they could and B: not give money to people making sub par equipment (at darn near the same price as some of the better known, trusted, and tested, brands) just because they are local. I mean... I used to buy all my gas when I lived in KY from a mom & pop gas station (paying $0.20 more per gal!) trying to keep my money "local". So I know where you're coming from with that.
But I would NOT apply this to something that not only am I staking MY life upon, but those of my peers and citizens.
I know Corycop personally. I'm positive that his observation is indeed UN-biased and I know how much time he has spent researching this stuff. IF I would have spent some of my time researching, I wouldn't have bought my STAG :D
And, I can't blame that on Cory either, haha - as I bought the STAG w/out discussing it with him. And, of course, he had the "Tier 1 vs Others" talk with me afterwards. And I did not turn into a defensive buyer. I learned from it. As we ALL should when we make a mistake.
Relyt, ya gotta put on your thick skin when you come here :)
But it's all for the best. Far as I can tell some of THE BEST in the biz are on these forums. And if someone calls BS or says something is junk, I'm prone to believe them. Here. I like that.
The Stag arms I build was more like placing a stag arm lower with an (I forget up receiver)... That build was junk and hence why I got rid of it quick. The wobble was terrible and any time I tried to feed steel brass (yes I know bad idea) not one round would fire.) I then stepped up to the Armalite which was also sold to me as an Armalite upper and a lower. It was nice, but also had a touch of wobble. I found the opportunity to trade in to a local gun shop where they take care of the local cops. He gave me the almost exact amount I needed for the Anderson Arms.
To further the above comment:
I don't doubt that I need thick skin, and trust me I have it.... I have to deal with @$$ clows on a nightly basis, have to deal with people that "know the law better than me", have to make traffic stops on cars that have turned into fights more than once etc. and in the past week have dealt with some cases and scenarios that I won't even tell my wife about.
Much like people in the military, and other cops on here, I have plenty of thickness. I go to these forums to escape and when I want to drink a beverage the last thing I need is a bunch of negative nancys.
But as of now I will humble myself and say the following because I am sure to an extent I WAS ON THE DEFENSE... I just paid XXXXX amount of money for a rifle (which I still love and was getting great groupings with). Do I know the Anderson's personally? Yes. Do I work for them, no? Has he ever mentioned or told me anything about ANY forum or website? No. I happened to have to walk my dog around his factory on an Alarm drop the other night and thats when I decided it was new rifle time.
Anyway since I will be a humble individual, swallow the pride etc I will do the following: I have a couple questions, and as another member requested, let me strip it down and take some iPhone photos to see if you guys notice anything else. And I will try to give a little better of a review. Im still debating on worrying about the offset as TO ME its not a deal breaker as long as it effects performance.
1) The offset in picture 3. From what I understand, that will not effect performance correct? (As of right now I have had 0 firing problems out of the 100ish rounds shot.)
1b) I actually did a search of ARs online and found quite a few pictures (don't make me go back and refind all of them) from bushmaster to DPMS, to STAG etc where the offset to that pieces was considerably notable too.
2) I did notice that when I racked my first round into the chamber, I didn't let it do the full slingshot effect as I was "babying the rifle." I had to hit the forward assist for it to feed into the chamber. I actually had to give the forward assist a pretty good smack to get it to go. Other than that, once I put on my big boy pants and actually pulled the charging handle, I never had any problem.
3) The forward assist made me start thinking, so while at home (with a safe backdrop) I began sliding the chamber closed in an effort to force myself to have to use the forward assist. 2 things I noticed. Pmags without window you have to hit the forward assist a touch more. Pmags without window was an easy press... same for the ol' metal mags.
4) My next post will be pictures of rifle in several pieces. Let me know what else to take pictures of and maybe we can turn this conversation civil.
I'd like to see the feed ramps, carrier key, the buffer tube is on straight and not canted, and end plate staking.
I'd like to see the feed ramps, carrier key, the buffer tube is on straight and not canted, and end plate staking.
Ok, while I take a few photos and wait for them to upload I will leave 2 eye candy pictures (the collection and my partner). Give me a few seconds to 'wipe it down'... I wanted to see how many rounds I could get through without a malfunction so let me at least 'touch up' a few things because you will see our FEDERAL XM193 BALL 55Grain Metal Case Boat-Tail gunk all over it (what we use just for training). Turns out I also sent down range quite a few American Eagle Dirty Rounds.... So the gun is not Marine Corps Standard Clean but you get an idea of at least HOW THINGS LOOK in the next two posts after this one.
The mis-alighment I saw on the first page has been absolutely corrected. And yes I agree, I am now not thrilled about the offset part in picture 3 and I may go talk to them about it. However, the gun has absolutely NOOOOOO wobble and fits very well. I hope these pictures do justice in me at least trying to show I am here to learn/help.
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t38/Tystib03/IMG_0829_zps70f22eba.jpg
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t38/Tystib03/FraserA.jpg
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t38/Tystib03/IMG_0850_zps52637470.jpg
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t38/Tystib03/IMG_0849_zps08d3ff7e.jpg
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t38/Tystib03/IMG_0848_zps154efb82.jpg
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t38/Tystib03/IMG_0846_zps9f407253.jpg
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t38/Tystib03/IMG_0840_zpsbc1ff12d.jpg
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t38/Tystib03/IMG_0839_zps24ba4fc9.jpg
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t38/Tystib03/IMG_0814_zpsaed4e9e5.jpg
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t38/Tystib03/IMG_0813_zps78e19631.jpg
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t38/Tystib03/IMG_0812_zps6c1025d6.jpg
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t38/Tystib03/IMG_0811_zps220c48cf.jpg
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t38/Tystib03/IMG_0810_zps795d0426.jpg
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t38/Tystib03/IMG_0806_zpsb15c6215.jpg
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t38/Tystib03/IMG_0838_zpsfdd53c02.jpg
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t38/Tystib03/IMG_0834_zps577a42ab.jpg
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t38/Tystib03/IMG_0824_zps71f2041b.jpg
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t38/Tystib03/IMG_0823_zpsb73e8592.jpg
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t38/Tystib03/IMG_0822_zps451c1332.jpg
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t38/Tystib03/IMG_0821_zps67ec9c15.jpg
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t38/Tystib03/IMG_0817_zpsecc22438.jpg
Brother, I hope that Anderson lasts you a long time. Just make sure you COMPLETELY dry it out after cleaning it. Especially since they recommend AGAINST using oil on it (RF 85 treatment).
Don't ask me how I know this. :(
ffhounddog
01-17-13, 06:03
Just a suggestion but I would get the bolt carrier key restaked. One screw has a light staking and the other from the picture none at all. Other than that shoot it and make sure it is good to go before you use it insted of the G36.
Have fun and stay safe.
It's hard to tell from your pictures, but it doesn't look like your castle nut is staked.
Unless you plan on switching out your end plate for something else soon, I'd get that staked.
Just a suggestion but I would get the bolt carrier key restaked. One screw has a light staking and the other from the picture none at all. Other than that shoot it and make sure it is good to go before you use it insted of the G36.
Have fun and stay safe.
It's not my work rifle. The G36 goes to work with me every day as it was the one issued to me. I enjoy having burst fire on that one.
The Anderson is just a rifle for the safe.
Thanks for the info guys. The picture doesn't not show the correct staking in the bolt carrier... Maybe due to lighting/ color/ iPhone 5 camera. It is however a light staking. I may run it up to our armorer today and have them make it a touch deeper.
Can you post another picture of the FCG? Hard to be sure from the photo, but looks like the legs of the hammer spring might be on the wrong side of the trigger pin.
I didn't read the entire thread so I don't know if this was mentioned but.. yeah... I would never purchase anything from a shady company like Anderson. They make false claims for one thing but not only that over on TOS one of their employees (vice president I believe) went onto the board with a post count of 1 and started acting like a happy customer claiming how amazing the rifles, they require no lube, and the US Military is adopting Anderson Manufacturing rifles as the "new DOD mil spec". Not even kidding.
Somebody then tracked the name of the poster back to Anderson Manufacturing and it was proven that it was an employee once again making false claims.
Again, do not know if this was mentioned but here's the thread (forgive me for linking but this is important):
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/520530_Anderson_Manufacturing.html
Anderson Manufacturing is a huge fraud. Don't support these scam artists!
Thanks for the link dj. I can't believe their VP actually tried to pull some crap like that. That's low.
If one of their Execs. sinks that far there's no telling how bad the weapons they build could actulally be.
Personally I would run, not walk, far far away from Anderson Arms.
Relyt there is a large potential upside to your purchase.
Even though there is little possibility of an AWB there is still a LOT of panic buying going on out there. I'll be willing to bet you could get more than you paid for your rifle.
If you're not in a hurry you could wait until prices go back to normal and the shelves are restocked, then buy a reliable rifle from a reputable manufacturer.
The money you save could be put into accessories or ammo.
Just sayin'
I didn't read the entire thread so I don't know if this was mentioned but.. yeah... I would never purchase anything from a shady company like Anderson. They make false claims for one thing but not only that over on TOS one of their employees (vice president I believe) went onto the board with a post count of 1 and started acting like a happy customer claiming how amazing the rifles, they require no lube, and the US Military is adopting Anderson Manufacturing rifles as the "new DOD mil spec". Not even kidding.
Somebody then tracked the name of the poster back to Anderson Manufacturing and it was proven that it was an employee once again making false claims.
Again, do not know if this was mentioned but here's the thread (forgive me for linking but this is important):
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/520530_Anderson_Manufacturing.html
Anderson Manufacturing is a huge fraud. Don't support these scam artists!
^^This... plus the poor or absent staking(which is soooo easy to do correctly), and misaligned upper/lower makes one wonder if anything they claim as specs on their products is true. All signs point to run far away from Anderson.
Yes, I will post pics again of what you want later. Off to work for me.
In reference to the above post, the staking is there, just hard to see in the lighting picture.
I will continue to shoot the rifle and see how I like it compared to the others I used to own. Right now I plan to keep it. I haven't had a chance to speak with him about the small misalignment but I do plan on doing that.
The way I look at it at the moment is I am happy. I know this is opening another box of worms, but heck my Kimber isn't even "perfect." It had a break in period and unlike a glock you can't ride it hard and put it away wet.
As for the claims and the VP etc, I do not know him, and I was unfamilire with the claims until reading that thread.
Regardless, who now a days can you trust or is "perfect". We have Presidents who lie, Generals who have affairs with book writers, championship athletes who dope, firefighters who burn down houses, and normal everyday people who break the law and smoke dope or whatever else.
Was he trying to promote his product? Sure, just like anyone on here would. What marketing director doesn't try to make their product seen like the end all be all?
All I did was buy an Anderson product and say that I have enjoyed shooting it thus far and spoke about my tour of the facility.
Here's the first quote from the VP of Anderson.
"Anderson is a New to the AR market, they make a ton of receivers and other parts for other OEMS. They are also the only company with the new RF-85 tech. I here this is about to become the new DOD Mil-Spec. Thier guns are some of the best on the market."
Red flag#1: If he's a VP of the company, why is he referring to Anderson in the third person? Instead of using "they and their" why didn't he say we and our company? Is he ashamed of the company or just being plain deceitful?
Red flag#2: RF-85 is going to be the "New DOD Mil-Spec" Really??? That's just shamelessly promoting something supported by nothing more than conjecture.
Red flag#3 If he is a VP his grammar sucks. Here and hear have two totally different meanings.
If you want to promote your product just come out and say it's yours, don't pretend to be a third party giving some kind of review.
Here's the first quote from the VP of Anderson.
"Anderson is a New to the AR market, they make a ton of receivers and other parts for other OEMS. They are also the only company with the new RF-85 tech. I here this is about to become the new DOD Mil-Spec. Thier guns are some of the best on the market."
Red flag#1: If he's a VP of the company, why is he referring to Anderson in the third person? Instead of using "they and their" why didn't he say we and our company? Is he ashamed of the company or just being plain deceitful?
Red flag#2: RF-85 is going to be the "New DOD Mil-Spec" Really??? That's just shamelessly promoting something supported by nothing more than conjecture.
Red flag#3 If he is a VP his grammar sucks. Here and hear have two totally different meanings.
If you want to promote your product just come out and say it's yours, don't pretend to be a third party giving some kind of review.
I don't disagree.
Thank you to the member who wrote me with positive information and ways to check for things links to articles on how-to, etc.
As I've said a million times (ok maybe 5), I enjoy the fact that I have something made "down the road" from me. I didn't come here to be told what a huge mistake I made, that I'm a liar blah blah blah. I came here for the same fact that everyone else did.... they like M4 style rifles/ guns and or are gun collectors.
Can you post another picture of the FCG? Hard to be sure from the photo, but looks like the legs of the hammer spring might be on the wrong side of the trigger pin.
Hammer spring is correct.
I know still not the best picture. Have had 0 light primer strikes and legs are coming from bottom and resting on top
Littlelebowski
01-18-13, 08:03
Relyt, I appreciate what you're saying dude but you're right and you're wrong. Yeah, it's good to support local businesses. No, that "matched" lower and upper is not acceptable. Yes, your honesty and forthrightness rocks.
Do yourself a favor, move that grip out forward and get a good 2 point sling. I would also recommend taking a good basic carbine class.
Stay safe. Stop arguing here.
Relyt, I appreciate what you're saying dude but you're right and you're wrong. Yeah, it's good to support local businesses. No, that "matched" lower and upper is not acceptable. Yes, your honesty and forthrightness rocks.
Do yourself a favor, move that grip out forward and get a good 2 point sling. I would also recommend taking a good basic carbine class.
Stay safe. Stop arguing here.
Not trying to argue. Just trying to state that I still enjoy my rifle. I've shot it more without a hiccup, the accuracy is still great, no malfunctions, and I'm making sure I don't clean to figure out this R85 thing.
If you knew me you'd realize I am completely into technology, new ideas and possible innovations. Your right. The unmatched upper and lower is unacceptable.
I've been to plenty of classes about shooting and tactics, active shooter scenarios etc. I just am now getting into the tweaking, building, and upgrading of rifles. I've done cars, 45s and this rifle now seems to be the new hobby.
And yes I took offense to people calling my new purchase garbage. The same anyone would be if they bought a new car and the first comment is that car is $hit.
As stated, due to a private message sent to me I have learned a ton on specs how to do specific things and so on.
Littlelebowski
01-19-13, 22:57
Relyt, good on you, bro. Don't take the internet too seriously.
What he said. I am not proud that I chose the Anderson lower that I did, but I am damned sure going to make it run as good as I possibly can. Just because their name is trash doesnt mean my rig has to be. If your gun works for you, thats all that matters.
What he said. I am not proud that I chose the Anderson lower that I did, but I am damned sure going to make it run as good as I possibly can. Just because their name is trash doesnt mean my rig has to be. If your gun works for you, thats all that matters.
I too have purchased a anderson stripped, now that im not to elated about, but i believe it will be fine as im making A2 style with fixed buttstock, round handgaurd, and not switching from 223/556 ammo. I dont trust that crappy RF-85 B.S., guns have been cleaned and oil for decades and centuries, until i see OVERWHELMING evidence that proves to be superior to the status quo will not think otherwise. Thank you for the most informational review too. I hope in the future they improve standards to surpass customers expectations and become a affordable quality player in the game. I am too a cheerer for the underdog.
Relyt, if you were shocked that we would be skeptical of you, as a first time poster, posting positively and presumably knowingly about a known shyster product like Anderson, then you are either a tad naive or delusional. What exactly were you expecting? We have all seen the BS that Anderson laid out there, as you have, so are we just supposed to assume that some new poster with Anderson experiene and a SWAT/K9 background is on the up and up?
No but you people seem to be very unwelcoming to any new member who posts something they actually have a ton of knowledge about. I have an idea why not try to be welcoming and ask nice questions instead of trashing people who you don't even know anything about. It is amazingly rude and really how much do any of you people know about the weapon since none of you have used it. This site is very biased about certain things and with some quality research before people open their mouths maybe they wouldn't look like a*ses so much.
Littlelebowski
05-14-13, 06:19
No but you people seem to be very unwelcoming to any new member who posts something they actually have a ton of knowledge about. I have an idea why not try to be welcoming and ask nice questions instead of trashing people who you don't even know anything about. It is amazingly rude and really how much do any of you people know about the weapon since none of you have used it. This site is very biased about certain things and with some quality research before people open their mouths maybe they wouldn't look like a*ses so much.
How about realizing that you are not the bearer of anything new (search and see) and not being so thin skinned? Good lord, you'd think anyone with military service wouldn't be so whiney.
I have an idea why not try to be welcoming and ask nice questions instead of trashing people
I just re-read the ENTIRE thread. People were not trashed, aspects of the company and their product had some sharp questions asked of it, deservedly so, and people have had questions put to some decisions that they've made, deservedly so.
Last post was in bloody March, and you want to post here for no better reason than to intentionally stir up some person-to-person nonsense, 7 weeks later....?
Nuh-uh.
Drop it.
A newbie - but joined recently b/c of the Anderson Manufacturing reviews. I think a separation of questionable tactics by one of their staff on this forum vs. the quality of their products is in order ...
I recently bought one of their stripped lowers while on vacation in Tennessee. SHOCKED! - beyond belief! - to see it priced less - by about 1/2! - than an e-ordered polymer lower from New Frontier Armory in NV. With the 10.00 transfer fee - 1/3 of what I pay locally - I could justify using it as a paperweight and get my money's worth.
35 minutes installing a quality LPK back home and pinning it to a 5.56 Stag Arms full upper, the fit is .... PERFECT! No difference - visual or functional - from the Stag Arms lower that was OEM-matched to the same upper brand new. I found ZERO indications of anything but the highest quality machining on all exterior surfaces - save but a miniscule "scuff" of milling chatter - un-noticed when first looking perpendicular at the area - and covered by the upper part of the hand grip when installed. Mag well appears to be cut by wire EDM - but not sure. Every magazine I seated - metal or Magpul P-Mags - fit like a glove.
I also make note of the "keyhole" forging mark on the Lower - on the "passenger side" rear trigger guard point - it's from Cerro Forge!!!
I have personal experience with several extreme-quality forging houses in the USA from my employment days - and Cerro - IMPO - never failed to impress - aluminum, brass or other materials. Not the cheapest - but their quality was consistently impeccable. My employer bought hundreds of thousands of "raw" forgings from them in my 30+ years there - assorted sizes for valve parts, etc. - and the net reject rate was in the 0.000x percent range ... (Similar parts - not requiring the strength of a "forging" - were always sourced from top-shelf die casting shops - and with the different process, "raw" aluminum die-cast parts were typically rejected in the 2-4% range ... )
I remember the small gun shop where I bought this stripped lower having 6 available on-the-spot. My mistake - in retrospect - was not buying every single one of them!!
Regards,
Oh, BTW, I think Anderson's "super-slick", no-lube needed coating claim is quite a stretch! Flies right in the face of everything science knows about the benefit of proper "lubrication" of high-heat, mechanical parts & assemblies. My respected, ex-military M16/AR15 gurus would no more run their rifles dry than they would drive their cars without engine oil. They might as well say their coating is made from compound of 'ol fashioned snake oil ... The gas rings on the bolt - IN PARTICULAR - take a ferocious beating!!! Personally, I micro-inject 15W-50 Castrol Syntec synthetic oil in the BC access holes - and all surfaces coated with this stuff are almost "like new" clean after ~2,500 rounds. Never *dripping* wet with oil, naturally - just well coated. Everywhere. In fact, I "juice" all of my rifles with synthetic oil at all metal-to-metal points - e.g., a "schmear" of synthetic wheel bearing grease where the BCG rides on the upper receiver surfaces - has served me perfectly well so far! (Fingers crossed!)
TacticalIntervention
05-02-14, 10:49
I have not posted on here in a long time but here are my thoughts after reading the whole thread again and using weapons system for about three years.
1. Cerro is the manufacture of the forgings Anderson uses. The Cerro rep told me so and the Keyhole supports it.
2. Anderson makes many high quality components for other companies that people seem to worship. I saw the parts being made with others names on them.
3. Anderson is its own worse enemy by selling lowers and uppers so cheaply without the RF85 treatments.
Now from use of the rifles with RF85.
In my experience it allows more time between cleanings and does not need as much lube to run. I know they say no lube but mine work better with red grease on lugs and light oil on all other moving parts. RF85 sure keeps carbon build up down.
I see no wear on my 5.56's but the 6.8's showed wear fairly fast without lube. I run with the red grease and no wear.
I clean my RF85 rifles with standard Hoppes #9. They clean fast and then I lightly lube them. They are wearing less than non RF85 treated weapons.
The RF85 in the barrel I don't know about except these barrels shoot well and clean easily.
Dissecting the rifles and none of this has not been told to Anderson directly:
Free float tubes work but not offering features to level of most any good brand free float fore end. I removed all of mine and used, LaRue, Troy or other operator designed fore ends.
On the Uppers and Lowers sold. Damm good deal. I bough and built ten of them. Not one problem putting them together. There uppers and lowers are as good as any on the planet.
My last on this is my advice is for Anderson to quit selling parts, dump the fore ends. Put a great trigger and top notch barrel in the system and price as LaRue, PWS or LMT do there top of the line stuff and be happy making as good as it gets. The rifles would then get a following of people looking for the best at any price
If you think that making a few changes will allow them to change the price structure and then price it with the likes of others you mentioned, then you aren't really in tune with marketing and certainly not the AR market.
I have not posted on here in a long time but here are my thoughts after reading the whole thread again and using weapons system for about three years.
1. Cerro is the manufacture of the forgings Anderson uses. The Cerro rep told me so and the Keyhole supports it.
2. Anderson makes many high quality components for other companies that people seem to worship. I saw the parts being made with others names on them.
3. Anderson is its own worse enemy by selling lowers and uppers so cheaply without the RF85 treatments.
Now from use of the rifles with RF85.
In my experience it allows more time between cleanings and does not need as much lube to run. I know they say no lube but mine work better with red grease on lugs and light oil on all other moving parts. RF85 sure keeps carbon build up down.
I see no wear on my 5.56's but the 6.8's showed wear fairly fast without lube. I run with the red grease and no wear.
I clean my RF85 rifles with standard Hoppes #9. They clean fast and then I lightly lube them. They are wearing less than non RF85 treated weapons.
The RF85 in the barrel I don't know about except these barrels shoot well and clean easily.
Dissecting the rifles and none of this has not been told to Anderson directly:
Free float tubes work but not offering features to level of most any good brand free float fore end. I removed all of mine and used, LaRue, Troy or other operator designed fore ends.
On the Uppers and Lowers sold. Damm good deal. I bough and built ten of them. Not one problem putting them together. There uppers and lowers are as good as any on the planet.
My last on this is my advice is for Anderson to quit selling parts, dump the fore ends. Put a great trigger and top notch barrel in the system and price as LaRue, PWS or LMT do there top of the line stuff and be happy making as good as it gets. The rifles would then get a following of people looking for the best at any price
TacticalIntervention
05-02-14, 15:35
If you think that making a few changes will allow them to change the price structure and then price it with the likes of others you mentioned, then you aren't really in tune with marketing and certainly not the AR market.
I may not have explained myself well enough
My advice to them since the start was to only make the best possible and then charge accordingly
Certainly they hurt there image by not doing that and blowing out parts at cheap prices
It may be too late to change the business plan to some but it certainly would not hurt to make the improvements and see where it goes
Improvement and the betterment of product should always be a goal and you are 100% correct on that. Also, as some of us know, timing is very important as well.
The blowing out of parts at cheap prices is certainly something that will make people wonder....
I may not have explained myself well enough
My advice to them since the start was to only make the best possible and then charge accordingly
Certainly they hurt there image by not doing that and blowing out parts at cheap prices
It may be too late to change the business plan to some but it certainly would not hurt to make the improvements and see where it goes
Whoever said they think the lower was wire EDM'd doesn't know much about the process.
It'd take a heck of a lot longer and make it more expensive than they are currently priced at.
Additionally, I owned one (with full RF85 treatment) and it did not fare well in class. Gummed up at around 1200 rounds or so. Also, bolt release was machined out of spec and the paddle was almost impossible to get to release the bolt. The gun got sent back and items were replaced. Customer service was great and the barrel was very accurate, but IMO they've got a long way to go before they can be compared to Larue and the likes.
Again, this is just one persons experience, but I feel these problems were severe enough that the rifle should not have made it out the door.
TacticalIntervention
05-02-14, 20:19
Whoever said they think the lower was wire EDM'd doesn't know much about the process.
It'd take a heck of a lot longer and make it more expensive than they are currently priced at.
Additionally, I owned one (with full RF85 treatment) and it did not fare well in class. Gummed up at around 1200 rounds or so. Also, bolt release was machined out of spec and the paddle was almost impossible to get to release the bolt. The gun got sent back and items were replaced. Customer service was great and the barrel was very accurate, but IMO they've got a long way to go before they can be compared to Larue and the likes.
Again, this is just one persons experience, but I feel these problems were severe enough that the rifle should not have made it out the door.
I toured the Anderson facility a couple of years ago and at that point there where CNC Machined
The company has pretty much every type of machining process but I think CNC is what they use
Read most of this thread after watching a few You Tube reviews one that shot or claimed to have shot 2,500 Rounds, NO LUBE!!! Anderson RF85 AM-15 Rifle Torture Test (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbcaZlNIPTk) dry not a drop of oil, in about 4 or 5 hours, with as many shooters. They had four failure to feed each time the shooter had been holding onto the mag like it was a fore grip as the gun was getting hot. They also did a follow up video Anderson RF85 Aftermath: Did We Wear it Out? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWKgXFGGe34&t=10s) that showed that the gun was filthy after their test but after cleaning appeared to only have normal wear. Over all very impressive. Than I read this thread and lot of what I have read here appeared to be a lot of negatives based on what seemed to be contempt prior to investigation. Along with a few others that apparently think advances in technology is just pixie dust. If there were any posts from anyone that has, had or used an RF85 treated Anderson rifle and said the RF85 was BS or that their Anderson was a POS. I missed them. It seems only a few like you have any real experience with the RF85 treated rifles. It's been a few years since you started this thread, what do you think of your rifle now.
Your pics are gone so I missed your collection and partner eye candy. How did your build go? Are you happy with your Anderson lower?
Are you still with Anderson? What do you think of their quality control now have you seen any problems or is their quality control up to par? Was unclear if you have one of their rifles if so what are your impressions?
This thread is like 8-9 years old and Anderson has a pretty well established reputation.
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