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View Full Version : Why doesn't anyone VIDEO all these excellent classes I read about here???



Rmplstlskn
10-09-07, 16:49
Just an observation...

I see all these AAR's that show they were great classes, some with pics, but none have any VIDEO.

It seems that someone taking VIDEO of these classes and then put them on DVD for the participants to buy (or sell outright) would be a great plus to aid in correcting mistakes. Watching yourself is a great tool, as most professional sports realize. It could also give the trainers a way to have a debriefing with the class after each day to point out areas of weakness...

Is there a market for this service? Would you, as a class participant, pay $30 or so to get a DVD of the class? Would you buy a DVD of a Vickers or Rogers class?

Just some thoughts I had...

Rmpl

Jay Cunningham
10-09-07, 16:55
I would imagine that the hard-working fellas who put these courses on might be short-changed by having their training presented for free.

Rmplstlskn
10-09-07, 17:00
I would imagine that the hard-working fellas who put these courses on might be short-changed by having their training presented for free.

Who said FREE? I'm talking about additional PROFIT and PRODUCT for the TRAINER and additional SERVICE to the PARTICIPANT by offering an "AAV" (After Action VIDEO) they can go back to whenever they want to refresh and learn more...

Sort of like all my old Gunsite VHS tapes I converted to DVD format not too far back so I could watch them without hooking up that dinosaur VCR...

I'm not an altruist....

Rmpl

Submariner
10-09-07, 17:09
(Potential) Liability.

OK. Two words.;)

vcpk9
10-09-07, 17:39
Pay for the class and bring your own video camera along.

Derek_Connor
10-09-07, 19:07
the teachers are too busy teaching...........students are too busy learning

abnartyguy
10-09-07, 19:39
I bought a couple of these DVD's off of Amazon before i went to one of Hackathorn's classes and found it to be a great source for a train up for the real thing. A DVD is a good thing but there is no replacement for the real thing! later!
-ZM

Treehopr
10-09-07, 19:50
Some classes (or instructors rather) do allow students to video tape. However, for me the purpose of going to a class is to learn and practice the physical skill sets they're teaching under their guidance.

Investing all your energy in to watching people do stuff rather than doing it isn't why most people take the time and money to go to classes. Imagine going to a swim class and not getting in the water because you want to video tape the other swimmers.

A big reason many of my fellow classmates over the years decided to go to a school or class is so they can do things they normally can't on their home ranges such as shooting on the move, working in shoot houses, shooting under low light conditions, from vehicles, etc.

FWIW- Bennie Cooley and Scott Reitz both have some of their curriculum on video.

Paul Howe made extensive use of video recording and playback in a recent 5 day class I took.

Every instructor I've ever trained with encouraged the use of pen and paper for note taking. There are undoubtedly things I have missed that might have been caught had a video camera been available but there are many things I was able to pick up because I was actively absorbing the information rather than passively running a video camera.

That said, if Pat Rogers or Larry Vickers had video of a class they taught I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

VA_Dinger
10-09-07, 20:03
Templar has posted a few videos from the Vickers Tactical AK & Battle Rifle classes. I posted two from a VT 3-day pistol/carbine that we held back in Decemeber.

Do a search for those classes.

SuicideHz
10-09-07, 20:57
with places like youtube, only ONE video would have to make it out to "train" everyone out there. It's not like it used to be where it was difficult to copy or share trade secrets like these.

Jay Cunningham
10-09-07, 21:13
Who said FREE? I'm talking about additional PROFIT and PRODUCT for the TRAINER and additional SERVICE to the PARTICIPANT by offering an "AAV" (After Action VIDEO) they can go back to whenever they want to refresh and learn more...

Sort of like all my old Gunsite VHS tapes I converted to DVD format not too far back so I could watch them without hooking up that dinosaur VCR...

I'm not an altruist....

Rmpl

It's called bootlegging and youtube.

The trainers eyeball you and correct you right there. It's up to you to practice correctly what you have been shown. Have a buddy video you while you practice.

Hawkeye
10-09-07, 21:16
the teachers are too busy teaching...........students are too busy learning


Pretty much it.

John_Wayne777
10-09-07, 21:59
with places like youtube, only ONE video would have to make it out to "train" everyone out there. It's not like it used to be where it was difficult to copy or share trade secrets like these.

I've seen videos and I've done the real life training many times. There's no way in heck anyone who watches a video can get even a fraction of the benefit of the training without having been there.

There's not a whole lot of top secret proprietary stuff that goes on at most training courses. There aren't many proprietary drills, and there's no magical fairy dust that hits you when you've seen somebody like Larry Vickers explain something to you.

The benefit of a training course is to be required to perform under the supervision of an expert instructor who can zero in on what you are doing wrong, correct you, and then make you do it the right way. The benefit of training is in doing the drills while being held accountable by the instructor. The learning comes when Larry asks you how that window tastes and tells you to try doing X and then making sure you actually do it. Having a buddy watch you shoot is great and all, but I don't have many buddies who have that critical teacher's eye that lets them see what I'm doing wrong and the experience to correct it.

No video can hope to approach even a fraction of that. You can learn things from videos, that's true...but anyone who would not take a training course because they saw the video would be a fool. I hate to sound vulgar about this, but it's a fitting analogy:

Watching a video of a training course may help you learn a couple of things, but it is no more a suitable replacement for having been there than a porn site is for snuggling up with a real woman. The real thing is incomparably better and a whole hell of a lot more fun.

As to why people don't video courses, there just isn't time. The instructors and the students are typically very busy during a course and have enough to worry about without having a video camera to run.

Persec is also a concern. There are some people who don't need/want their picture on the internet. That has to be respected.

Business_Casual
10-09-07, 22:15
What are you guys talking about? There are plenty of trainers that offer videos. There are plenty of videos already out there. Valhalla (sp?) just released a bunch of new videos.

???

M_P

rob_s
10-10-07, 04:59
I actually think it wouldn't be a bad idea to offer a video of a class that you were in. For one thing, you could go back and look at it and remind yourself of all the things you forgot. :p

Robb Jensen
10-10-07, 05:47
If someone where to take just a few video snippets from a training class things......... whats said/shown could easily be taken out of context and could make the trainer and methods look bad.

If it was a production grade video (made for the purpose of sales) that's a whole different animal.

John_Wayne777
10-10-07, 07:23
If it was a production grade video (made for the purpose of sales) that's a whole different animal.

...and a whole lot of work, too.

markm
10-10-07, 08:00
Just have the New England Patriots record it for you! :D

gyp_c2
10-10-07, 21:33
...because if you took video without permission, you might wind up as a target for a box drill with all the students working at the same time...:D
It'd be a major distraction from the classwork...and I certainly wouldn't volunteer to spend my classtime screwin' with somethin' besides what I have on my plate...http://emoticons4u.com/smoking/rauch06.gif

Rmplstlskn
10-11-07, 14:13
Now that I storyboard it in my head what video from a live, not staged for video class would be like, I see less value to my original idea and post... :(

First, it would not focus on any one individual, as many would be on the line at the same time, therefore value of a video to the class student for an AAV would be limited as other shooters and other obstructions may make that person unseen or needed detail hidden.

Therefore, little use as an AAV...

Plus, too disjointed and uncontextual for PRODUCTION and SALES.

Oh well, I was just thinking how to take my interest in digital video and DVD authoring and turn into a way to be around MORE GUNS for MORE TIME and maybe even make a few bucks along the way. Also, I never intended to imply that one could be a STUDENT on the line and film at the same time, as it is impossible. I was thinking of a dedicated video tech doing the shooting while the students did their shooting, pun intended, then providing AAV for the class at the end of the day for REVIEW, if exhaustion didn't hit them first.

Just thinking of ways I could get into more firearm training action doing stuff I enjoy and am good at...

Rmpl

gyp_c2
10-11-07, 18:41
...maybe you could contact some trainers directly and ask for their input...Maybe you'll get lucky and accomplish some training goals and/or get a shove in the right direction...http://emoticons4u.com/smoking/rauch06.gif

Pat_Rogers
10-11-07, 19:36
I'm not a fan of vid as a teaching tool.
Having said that, if no one in the class is photo sensitive i have no problem with short snippets or still photography for non commercial use..
I would not permit anyone to video the class. Nada. NFE.

How could a student film the class? If they weren't shooting. they better be hydrating, urinating or jammin' mags.
Additionally, i don't need distractions on the line (as in watching the photographer etc.).

When i went to Bill Rogers in 93 he filmed students performing certain drills. He playd it back at dinner, then erased it. You could keep it if you wanted it, but no commercial use was permitted.

unknownsailor
10-11-07, 21:46
I have 4 short snippets from one of Pat's classes. 1 "wave of death", one of Pat shooting a box drill, one of transitions, and one of moving from 7 to 3.

Pat has his shorty LMT MRP, so it's from a while back.

I'm a a data pack rat. What can I say? :cool:

Anyway, having been a student of one of these "cool classes" (FINALLY!), I was to busy hydrating/urinating when off the line to even think about breaking out the camera. I had one with me, too, which is the ironic part.

Treehopr
10-12-07, 20:27
I'm not a fan of vid as a teaching tool.

Pat, not to take this thread off track but can you elaborate?

What do you see as the disadvantages?

Respectfully,

treehopr

hldhard
10-12-07, 21:11
When I shoot alone at the house I have video taped myself. Just to see if I was making any mistakes I didn't know about.
As far as videoing a class. I have let students video. But I would designate a certain drill for taping. Or a block of time. That way I don't have to worry about the distraction. The best way is to have one person film some of the training and make copies to give away at the end.

SHIVAN
10-12-07, 22:52
Then videos like this get out, and all the classes get booked for want of doing that......:p :p :p

http://youtube.com/watch?v=s5iCubSn4D4&mode=related&search=Maadi%20ak47

they
10-15-07, 23:31
The few "tactical training" vids I have seen were either:

1) Short segments of classes by respected trainers, Vicker's MP44:D

2) Longer video by bozos. "Risks Inc" type shit.

This is just an observation of the "tactical" vids, as their are quite a few very informative "shooting" vids on the net, Todd Jarret's vids for instance.

Rob Pincus
11-10-07, 14:45
If you look at the Valhalla Videos, one of them (Shooting in REalistic Environments) tried to follow a course with real students during a large portion of the DVD... I decided that it didn't work well at all.

I'm not going to sell a video from a camera on a tripod "watching the course".... the production value would be too low and 40-50% of the time would be lost to drill work, etc in a typical class. The truth is that, done properly, a 1.5 hr DVD can put out a day (or more) worth of training information... given that the student can pause, review, watch it again a week later, try the drills on their own, etc., you can cover a lot of ground quickly... Of course, the student doesn't get any direct feedback on their situations, equipment, etc... just generic concept and information on the given topic.

Producing a training video is nothing like putting on a course... while the content is the same, the dynamics are completely different. The value is there if an instructor dedicates 1-2 days and then a production team puts dozens of man-hours into editing, graphics, sound and packaging and then a retail operation does what it needs to advertise and deliver the product to a consumer for $20-$30.... but don't think that it is as easy as setting up a camera and burning a disk on iMovie. I wish it were!

For the current series that I am doing (Personal Defense Video Series, co-branded with NRA, SAF and Guns & Ammo), I am investing about 30 days a year (4-5 days per quarter taping, 2 days per quarter production meetings in Minneapolis, plus dozens of hours reviewing rough edits and preparing shot lists, etc....), but we're are going to have over 1 million videos distributed (mostly through NRA) by the end of the 1st quarter 2008, so it is worth it. We started the project in November of '06 and have taped 8 videos in their entirety and have 3 edited and deliverable. We have 7 more scheduled for taping by the end of APril '08... as the series moves on, I have invited other trainers to get involved and we are expanding topis beyond pistol shooting as well.

Recently, I did a 1.25 hour DVD for SWAT Magazine, due to be released soon, and the entire project took over 2 months, with 1 day of taping, about 30 hours of editing, a few hours of package design and about 10hrs of DVD production work.

All that said, I agree that DVDs will never replace actual courses, but there is a lot of value for the student.
I like the advice given above about using the videos (and it applies to books as well) as a preparation for attending formal training.... but they won't replace the latter.


I am not against students video'ing courses for their own use... and the SF guys often tape key parts of our ECQCA courses to take back to the members of units who couldn't attend training sessions. If, however, a 3 day course showed up on YouTube, I'd probably address the issue. A few Torrent rips of the DVDs have shown up... I figure that anyone who really values the info will do the right thing and buy a copy or at least buy a different title or book or something. The fact is that between articles in magazines, the VTC newsletter, the new Podcast and forums like these I put out plenty of free information... a lot of leads back to business that makes it possible to keep the information flowing!

During courses themselves, video is invaluable for debrief of high-level reality based training, but not that useful if you're only doing square range shooting drills.

-RJP

Sidewinder6
11-10-07, 17:36
I have to say I much prefer the videos of the Jihadis suffering from premature detonation of mortar rounds in the tube etc. :D

Hootiewho
11-10-07, 17:48
It might not be a bad idea for the trainers to have a stationary camera or two set up; then replay the tape for instruction to the class to point out mistakes or bad form. Just the same as in sports, when you have the replay it is hard to argue with the camera and it would give others a good "what not to do". Then the tapes could be destroyed or reviewed for the trainers to maybe adjust their course of instruction.

Rob Pincus
11-10-07, 18:48
Hootie,

For some of the reasons you cite, we have 16 digital video cameras running at all times at VTC in the mazes and the square range to replay specific incidents. We run specific higher quality vid for thing s we know that we are going to debrief (I have hundreds of mini-DV tapes in archive over the past 8 years or so of video in this manner) and, of course, bring in professional crews for TV and DVD projects.

Harv
11-10-07, 20:41
Ha.. I got video of me doing some drills in one of Pat's classes....

But like Cpt Miller said in Saving Pvt Ryan..." I keep that one for myself"

You want to use video.. video tape yourself doing drills.. then use it as a learning tool to see if your doing it right... watching me "F*&^ Up" one of Pat's drill is not going to make you better... (Just make you feel better about yourself..);)

yasnevo
11-10-07, 23:18
I barely have time to scribble notes of what we are doing in the class in between rotations to shoot muchless shoot video of the class. Yeah, I will say that video is a great course seller, but, its hard to take notes, slam water, load mags, and snap a few pics...
video... is hard to sqeeze in there.

However, I will say that video is a great teaching tool. Often when you tell a student he does/did something, they may become defensive or not quite understand what you are meaning. Video takes all that out and its clear in living color. Paul Howe uses video to point out what the student does and then demonstrates how to correct it.


Anyone else?

Y-

Sam
11-11-07, 11:04
Occasionally we'd have a student bring his spouse along and video taped a large portions of many drills that we shoot during our Hackathorn and LAV classes. But the video is for our own consumption only.

Bulldog1967
11-11-07, 11:24
Training Videos CAN be useful, if done RIGHT.

I am a professional video producer/editor by trade, and have produced commercials/politicals/ AND training videos.

Recording a class with a video camera isn't making a "training video", its documenting it.

Recording a proper training video involves planning, scripting, proper lighting and excellent audio. In all my years of watching others examples of firearms "training videos" I have yet to see a proper example of all of these required elements come together. It requires time, money, and the technical know how.


Anyone who thinks they can go down to the local circuit city, buy a digital video camera, and produce a proper training video is fooling themselves.

Hootiewho
11-11-07, 14:08
Training Videos CAN be useful, if done RIGHT.

I am a professional video producer/editor by trade, and have produced commercials/politicals/ AND training videos.

Recording a class with a video camera isn't making a "training video", its documenting it.

Recording a proper training video involves planning, scripting, proper lighting and excellent audio. In all my years of watching others examples of firearms "training videos" I have yet to see a proper example of all of these required elements come together. It requires time, money, and the technical know how.


Anyone who thinks they can go down to the local circuit city, buy a digital video camera, and produce a proper training video is fooling themselves.


I'd have to argue with you on that one; I have made some great "training videos" before and they didn't involve planning, scripting, proper lighting, and excellent audio. At least all my buddies thought they were pretty good. It is amazing what you can do with a good tripod and a little alcohol.:D

Just kiddin..........

C4IGrant
11-11-07, 14:25
I would imagine that the hard-working fellas who put these courses on might be short-changed by having their training presented for free.


Agree (even for $30-$100).


C4

User Name
11-11-07, 14:27
Lenny McGill has always offered the highest quality cutting edge videos. :)

Rob Pincus
11-12-07, 16:37
For those interested, I can offer this as an option:

I invite you to check the Combat Focus Podcast (http://www.switchpod.com/p13003.html).... the second episode was just uploaded today. The Podcast features audio excerpts from courses.

CarlosDJackal
11-12-07, 16:57
I personally don't think that videotaping a lot of these courses would do it justice. If I were one of the instructors in question (alas, I am not :( ), I probably would not want to do this.

I have quite a few firearms training videos and I've only watched them once. I would say that what I've seen is not helpful for me not because of the content of the Instructors; but because a video cannot provide me with the feedback I need to perform some of these techniques properly.

IMHO, learning a particular technique improperly in the first place is much less desirable than not learning them at all (until I can attend the actual class, anyway). :) JM2CWYMMV.