View Full Version : I think I ruffled some feathers...oops.
As an avid hunter and fisherman, I visit the Georgia Outdoor Network forum from time to time. Sometimes, I make the mistake of entering the Firearms Discussion Forum. This is usually a mistake. Here's an ongoing thread where I simply posted some info that I had previously compiled in order to help a newbie with his first AR purchase. It went downhill quickly as the fudds clung to their pet brands. How'd I do with keeping my calm and stating the facts?
ETA: I'm the one posting as "Bullseye_Doc_Holiday"
http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?p=6006404&posted=1#post6006404
Haven't read the thread yet, but two cliches spring to mind in cases like this. The first is "pearls before swine" and the second is "situational awareness".
All you can do is give people the rod, bait, and boat, you can't catch the fish for them. By the same token, there are many places online that are populated by people that really don't care, and it's best to assess that situation first and then move on.
Appalachian
05-18-11, 09:08
Predictable but entertaining.
My favorite moron is: " I'm very happy with my Rock River Arms - all of them. I also have a Colt that is pretty sloppy compared to them (Upper/lower fit is pretty loose, trigger is sloppy, finish is not as smooth)"
And I swear I will pistol whip the next guy that applies "Tier 1" to any item in a conversation just so he can say "Tier 1" (not directed at the OP, at the mo-rons elsewhere in my life..). Another previously meaningful term that has been wo' the **** out as of late. FMR
r/
AT
ComeAndTakeIt
05-18-11, 09:10
I read the thread and got a good laugh at the cliche responses. Your post was good. It surprised me too that you put RRA in a lower tier than S&W, Stag, etc. LOL... when I saw that, I knew the guy with the Jeep avatar was going to be all over it because in like post 3, all he had to say was that he had RRA and "RRA makes a good AR".
His response to you was classic.
You did well keeping your cool. The thing is, most folks just don't 'get it'. Your point was made so clear, yet so many miss it out of
1) denial that they made a mistake in buying their RRA (or other lesser quality brand) when they could have had DD or BCM for the same money
or
2) "I've never had an issue, therefore, all other rifles of the same make must be great too." <--- logical fallacy made by soooo many.
I pretty much scanned through a lot of that, but it seems like a penis measuring contest. You are stating extremely helpful facts when no one is really taking the time to read what you have to say. Thick headed people...
Ive stopped giving advice to guys seeing as how this is generally what happens. Or I spend an hour or so going over what to get and why and then they come back with a bargain bin CMMG gun and ask me what to do to upgrade it and get mad when I say to sell it.
Haven't read the thread yet, but two cliches spring to mind in cases like this. The first is "pearls before swine" and the second is "situational awareness".
All you can do is give people the rod, bait, and boat, you can't catch the fish for them. By the same token, there are many places online that are populated by people that really don't care, and it's best to assess that situation first and then move on.
So right, Rob. I can only imagine how you've felt with the feedback you've gotten from "the chart". Oh well.
And I swear I will pistol whip the next guy that-
SHENANIGANS.
Fun topic. Nicely demonstrates why my list of visited forums has been reduced to two.
-B
Your "Tiers" were interesting but only differentiating between T2 and T3 (which is what the idea is to avoid both). T1 was spot on. Good info and I want to know where you found the DD deal. Dang! Shoot me a PM next time.
I woulda dropped BM down from what I've heard here but there is a lot of unsubstantiated BM hate. Mine served me well, but it was a postban A2 made before all the cool kids came along and when colt had goofy pins and non-M-16 carriers. (NO Bushmaster is not BCM/DD/etc... They also don't cause Satan to appear when firing--it is possible to acknowledge another product as superior without calling it crap).
Regardless, the advice you gave was spot on.
ChetPunisher
05-18-11, 10:47
Not to cause any arguments, but why do you list Spikes in your bad category?
Mentioning "Spikes" is guaranteed to cause an argument.
Get ready for that bite on your fishing line......the predators will hit hard and fast...
Your "Tiers" were interesting but only differentiating between T2 and T3 (which is what the idea is to avoid both). T1 was spot on. Good info and I want to know where you found the DD deal. Dang! Shoot me a PM next time.
I woulda dropped BM down from what I've heard here but there is a lot of unsubstantiated BM hate. Mine served me well, but it was a postban A2 made before all the cool kids came along and when colt had goofy pins and non-M-16 carriers. (NO Bushmaster is not BCM/DD/etc... They also don't cause Satan to appear when firing--it is possible to acknowledge another product as superior without calling it crap).
Regardless, the advice you gave was spot on.
See here for details on the build and pricing: http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=74763
For me, the biggest differentiator between RRA and other mid-tier (oops, I used that word) is the barrel. 4140 steel and lack of chrome lining as a standard is just stupid. That's why they go in the bottom. When I first got into AR's, Bushmaster was the way to go because they were the most affordable rifle that used "proper" barrel steel. However, since then Colt has started using common sense (pricing, pin sizes), and BCM, DD, and Noveske have come on the scene offering better-spec'd products for similar/better pricing.
Chet, PM sent. Let's not derail this.
http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?p=6006404&posted=1#post6006404
A most enjoyable read. I love how some people throw out military experience as a qualifier for weapons expertise (post #17). It just ain't so (speaking as a Marine myself). There's a big difference between "use" and intricate knowledge.
Hand you average Marine or Ranger an RRA or a Noveske, and they will kill with either. No questions asked. Now ask them to point out the differences and I'll bet you get mostly nothin'.
I knew far less about the AR platform back then than I do now. Not because of the Internetz, but because I took a genuine interest and had the money to build my own (and the time to learn).
ChetPunisher
05-18-11, 11:13
I think the way he made his list ruffed the feathers. Good, Bad, and Ugly... I get the reference, but when you throw in hard earned money and people's needs versus wants, I think you run into people who are gonna get mad. I have a Spikes, I like my rifle. But I ain't gonna go hate on someone because of his experience or opinions. Thanks for the PM BTW.
Chet
Certainly an entertaining read. Posting the facts and giving people an opportunity to see "on paper" what constitutes a "good" rifle always produces some jackwad who is so blinded by the fact that he owns a Brand X that has never had a failure in all of the 900 rounds he has put through it in 4 years time.
I used to own a DPMS, it was a piece of crap. Nothing about it looked or felt quality. I think a baby rattle would make less noise when you shook it then the rifle did. I couldn't hit an elephant if it were standing infront of me at 20 yards with that thing. The FSB was out of alignment(I assume from an over torqued barrel)and one of the gas key screws backed out on me after 50 rounds, yes 50 friggin rounds. That was the beginning of the end for me with that brand. Was a waste of the $700 I spent on it. Wish I had found this site before I had gone out and done that. My eyes are no longer obscured by the sheeps wool and I will spend my hard earned money on something that is far less likely to fail, if ever, then some crap ass brand. My life may never depend on my rifle, but if it does I will sleep safe at night knowing that when I flick the safety off and squeeze, it will go bang.
I always liken the rifle brand debate to that of motorcycle helmets. I love when people say I need the cheapest helmet I can get. To which I always say, "If you want to trust your life to a $100 helmet go right ahead. I will spend the $500-$1000 on a known brand of quality that is proven." Over the years I have tested the specified purpose of helmets at the race track. Every one of which cost well over $400 and all of which literally saved my life. There's a reason the professionals in many fields use certain items whether it be rifles, motorcycle helmets, heck even guitars. So because of that I'll stick with what has been proven to work under extreme conditions by those who rely on someting to work every time.
I thought you stated cold hard facts quite well.
Although i do think your choice of category names was what ruffled the feathers most.
maybe if you would have labeled them;
good= ok i guess, if you like boring reliability and quality, and if you depend on your weapon with your life.
bad= SUPER HAPPY, DUMBLEDORE MAGIC, FACE PUNCH, AWESOME
ugly= THOR'S HAMMER POWER, BALLS-KICK, TEAR YOU A NEW ONE....ROAR!!!!
lol and don't forget about fit and finish...insert shiny, polished, glint, mystifying, rainbow-like, arcane, and vorpal, when describing the latter two category weapons.
:jester:
Nobody_Special
05-18-11, 12:48
I'll never understand why people get so upset when they are told that their AR is not the best. I, like many on here bought a Stag before I knew any better. When I read stuff here stating Stag is of lesser quality than DD, BCM or the others, instead of whining and saying my Stag has been flawless, I researched why. Facts is facts and numbers don't lie. So now I own a BCM.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I know how the OP feels.
http://www.floridashootersnetwork.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=88978
In this case a store is trying to do a good thing but at the same time is being deceptive in my opinion. Apparently the staff thinks I should just STFU.
Ash556
Typical got to spend $1000-1500 or it's no good! :rolleyes: Well unlike most of the folks here not everyone can spend that kind of cash!:) Not everyone wants $1000 wurth of gagets on there rifle either!:bad:
Let me put this whole "Mil Spec" crap to rest once and for all. Unless your one of the luck few that can afford to buy and actually own a M16/M4 your gun is not "Mil Spec"! It may have mil spec parts and some testing that meets Mil spec but thats it! You have a Commercially manufactured AR! I actually own 3 "Mil spec" rifle -not US spec but they are true Mil spec rifles! I also own many other Commercial grade rifles! A rifle is a rifle! Some better quality then others! Thats the way things are! You need to quit being so hung up on the Mil spec, cause Mil spec doesn't always mean better! Not one of you will say a Comercially made custom gun isn't better then any Mil spec gun cause I've held and shot some truely excellant custom guns that no "Mil Spec" gun could even compare too ever! Another point if your "Mil Spec" gun is so great then why do you spend thousands on changing it?:rolleyes:
Ash556
Typical got to spend $1000-1500 or it's no good! :rolleyes: Well unlike most of the folks here not everyone can spend that kind of cash!:) Not everyone wants $1000 wurth of gagets on there rifle either!:bad:
You are right. You do not need to spend $1500 to get a first rate gun. Typically $900-$1k buys you something REALLY nice (Colt, BCM, Etc). The problem or "trap" that most fall into is that BM, RRA, DPMS, etc are typically in this same price range. Now if you could get a BM M4 for say $600 then this argument would hold water.
Let me put this whole "Mil Spec" crap to rest once and for all. Unless your one of the luck few that can afford to buy and actually own a M16/M4 your gun is not "Mil Spec"! It may have mil spec parts and some testing that meets Mil spec but thats it! You have a Commercially manufactured AR!
Correct. Unless Uncle Sam hands you the weapon it is not truly mil-spec. Truth is though that the parts Colt uses to build issued M4's and the parts used to build a 6920 (for instance) are the same. The issued M4 has a 14.5" barrel and a FA fire control group. The 6920 has a 16" barrel and a SA FCG. That's about it.
I actually own 3 "Mil spec" rifle -not US spec but they are true Mil spec rifles! I also own many other Commercial grade rifles! A rifle is a rifle! Some better quality then others! Thats the way things are! You need to quit being so hung up on the Mil spec, cause Mil spec doesn't always mean better!
Mil-Spec means that the item (weapon, can opener, etc) conforms to a set standard. A list or reqs. Are there better things than "mil-spec" of course. How many of these "upgrades" to the TDP are there in the commercial world? Not many.
Not one of you will say a Comercially made custom gun isn't better then any Mil spec gun cause I've held and shot some truely excellant custom guns that no "Mil Spec" gun could even compare too ever! Another point if your "Mil Spec" gun is so great then why do you spend thousands on changing it?:rolleyes:
Depends on what you are doing with said weapon. Is a dedicated Varmint AR better than a Colt 6920 for varmint hunting? Sure is. Is the 6920 a better defensive weapon that the varmint gun? Yes.
When building or buying an AR, it is really important to look at the TDP and figure out what parts of the document are important and why. Not all the things that the TDP calls out really matter. Some do though. Barrel steel, bolt steel, testing done, gas port size, build quality, etc are items of concern for a fighting weapon.
I am not sure who is spending "thousands" to change a mil-spec weapon. Got a link?
C4
The_War_Wagon
05-18-11, 16:28
Ive stopped giving advice to guys seeing as how this is generally what happens. Or I spend an hour or so going over what to get and why and then they come back with a bargain bin CMMG gun and ask me what to do to upgrade it and get mad when I say to sell it.
You're nicer than me. I usually offer 'em a hundred dollar bill for it.
...and ask if they have change. :D
I read some of those replies on that other site... and I thought immeadiately of Forrest Gump...but wiht a twist "bubba is as bubba does".
haha. I know what it's like.
There's a guy on youtube called "theARMORYchannel"
I commented on one of his videos how dpms is shit (as well as how he makes bs vids or re-makes older vids just to create more ad revenue)
and this was the response i got back lol:
"you have to be and asshole right?
so i do the same video just to make money?
thats typical comin from a guy with 67 subs. dicks like you **** up u tube for everyone. were starting a troll list and me and another of the few big channels will display the list on all of are channels just to make sure the whole gun community know who all you guys are. what did you get to many wedgies in school so you have to start shit with people that are miles away? good luck on your channel growing before the word gets out.
dude once again just cause some people had a bad time with there rifle dont condem the whole batch!!!
DPMS would have been out of business years ago!! if what you say is true i have the money to by good rifles and i picked to DPMS cause of my research!!
i cant stand assholes like you that spread roomers and blow it all out of proportion!!!
SO **** OFF!! ****EN TROLL MOTHER ****ER.
your channels done!! im putting on my front page about your rude ASS!!!
DPMS used by:
ATF
FBI
US MARINES!!! BLOW ME"
Mind you not only is this guy telling all his viewers that DPMS is a great rifle, but he's also pushing UTG accessories. When i told him that UTG is airsoft crap, he had a few more things to say to me:
"LOL WHAT A FAGGOT YOU ARE MAN!! GO SUCK YOUR DOGS COCK!!! AND SHOVE A UTG RAIL UP YOUR ASS. THE ONLY THING THATS AIRSOFT IS YOU DICK!! "
Too bad i pulled these from my emails, so i can't put exactly what i said to him. Needlessly to say, he got butthurt and blocked me soon after he sent me these messages. :jester:
chavez_e_chavez
05-18-11, 18:50
you pointed out valid information..I take that thread with a grain of salt..Really you buy what you can afford and also they will defend what they bought to make them self feel better!!...Some people still and will always think DPMS is the best, but hey, if that makes them sleep well then more power to them.THEY GOT A PANTHER ON THEM!!!!! I have a DD on a noveske lower and I did all of my research on here "m4carbine.net"!! To me shes a top notch rifle and goes BANg every time I ask her to..
haha. I know what it's like.
There's a guy on youtube called "theARMORYchannel"
I commented on one of his videos how dpms is shit (as well as how he makes bs vids or re-makes older vids just to create more ad revenue)
The OP demonstrated the proper way to educate people. You should follow his lead rather than try and impress the crowd.
The OP demonstrated the proper way to educate people. You should follow his lead rather than try and impress the crowd.
I don't see why. When i'm trying to educate them from what i've learned and to have him come back and insult me. Don't really see the need to be polite anymore.
Ash556
Typical got to spend $1000-1500 or it's no good! :rolleyes: Well unlike most of the folks here not everyone can spend that kind of cash!:) Not everyone wants $1000 wurth of gagets on there rifle either!:bad:
Let me put this whole "Mil Spec" crap to rest once and for all. Unless your one of the luck few that can afford to buy and actually own a M16/M4 your gun is not "Mil Spec"! It may have mil spec parts and some testing that meets Mil spec but thats it! You have a Commercially manufactured AR! I actually own 3 "Mil spec" rifle -not US spec but they are true Mil spec rifles! I also own many other Commercial grade rifles! A rifle is a rifle! Some better quality then others! Thats the way things are! You need to quit being so hung up on the Mil spec, cause Mil spec doesn't always mean better! Not one of you will say a Comercially made custom gun isn't better then any Mil spec gun cause I've held and shot some truely excellant custom guns that no "Mil Spec" gun could even compare too ever! Another point if your "Mil Spec" gun is so great then why do you spend thousands on changing it?:rolleyes:
Why are you here, on this forum?
You'll never convince anyone by being a jerk. If they're doing it, its obivous they aren't going to listen. Don't waste your time. It only impacts people's view of you (and in a negative way) when you respond in kind.
William B.
05-18-11, 19:58
Let me put this whole "Mil Spec" crap to rest once and for all.
Good job. Now that you've put this issue to rest your job here is done and you can move on to another forum and spread this wealth there instead, right? :ph34r:
First, I am still new to AR's and took a lot of crap my first time around but I will say thanks to all the thick headed tell it like it is sob's on this site. (That's a compliment by the way!) I too get a laugh now at why some people will spend $800 on a pos rifle build and then spend another thousand on optics to then complain it doesn't shoot straight. It took about a day of reading to learn the ins and outs of what makes a quality rifle. Why it is possible to spend only a $100-200 more than a crap build to get a good solid basic AR that is good to go. I do not understand why people will spend $xx dollars on garbage and not just wait a paycheck if needed to buy something worth the money. I feel sorry for that group a little but then I also feel if you won't spend a hour to research something as important as a firearm of anytype is, you deserve what you get. I only hope my life is never dependant upon their choice of rifle. I really want to give a swift buttstock to the head and ask the f-ing idiot how much did you really pay for that pos? Like many others have said...it is not worth the conversation usually. People make bad decisions all the time and like also stated...they then have too talk up their crap purchases to help make them feel better about it all. Thanks again too all the people that make this site what it is!
Hey, you tried to help. You can lead a horse to water...........
When I post from my experience in the Corps or some other topic I don't get all worked up if someone gets bent or tweaks, I just move on.
If you’re simply giving your best advice, based upon training and experience and you take arrows move on. Odds are someone took your post to heart but didn’t reply.
Ash556
Typical got to spend $1000-1500 or it's no good! :rolleyes: Well unlike most of the folks here not everyone can spend that kind of cash!:) Not everyone wants $1000 wurth of gagets on there rifle either!:bad:
Let me put this whole "Mil Spec" crap to rest once and for all. Unless your one of the luck few that can afford to buy and actually own a M16/M4 your gun is not "Mil Spec"! It may have mil spec parts and some testing that meets Mil spec but thats it! You have a Commercially manufactured AR! I actually own 3 "Mil spec" rifle -not US spec but they are true Mil spec rifles! I also own many other Commercial grade rifles! A rifle is a rifle! Some better quality then others! Thats the way things are! You need to quit being so hung up on the Mil spec, cause Mil spec doesn't always mean better! :
I'm really glad you settled this for us. I mean we have so many Mods, SMEs, current Mil., former Mil., LEOs and tier 1 (yes I said it) shooters here and all these years all we needed is for you to show up and straighten us out.
Not one of you will say a Comercially made custom gun isn't better then any Mil spec gun cause I've held and shot some truely excellant custom guns that no "Mil Spec" gun could even compare too ever! Another point if your "Mil Spec" gun is so great then why do you spend thousands on changing it?
If you're talking 1911s I'll give you some credit, concerning ARs, then yes I'll say it! Are you really going to tell us that a Baer or Wilson AR is better than a Colt, BCM or DD? Even as good as Noveske is they still don't meet as many specs as Colt, BCM or DD. Rob, where's the "chart":D. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you somewhat, but if I understand your post the way I read it then you need to wake up and smell the sh!t your shoveling.
qcfmike
First, I am still new to AR's and took a lot of crap my first time around but I will say thanks to all the thick headed tell it like it is sob's on this site. (That's a compliment by the way!) I too get a laugh now at why some people will spend $800 on a pos rifle build and then spend another thousand on optics to then complain it doesn't shoot straight. It took about a day of reading to learn the ins and outs of what makes a quality rifle. Why it is possible to spend only a $100-200 more than a crap build to get a good solid basic AR that is good to go. I do not understand why people will spend $xx dollars on garbage and not just wait a paycheck if needed to buy something worth the money. I feel sorry for that group a little but then I also feel if you won't spend a hour to research something as important as a firearm of anytype is, you deserve what you get. I only hope my life is never dependant upon their choice of rifle. I really want to give a swift buttstock to the head and ask the f-ing idiot how much did you really pay for that pos? Like many others have said...it is not worth the conversation usually. People make bad decisions all the time and like also stated...they then have too talk up their crap purchases to help make them feel better about it all. Thanks again too all the people that make this site what it is!
How refreshing, a new guy that gets it. Thank you qcfmike, good on you.
Avenger29
Why are you here, on this forum?
Good question
Colt LE6920
Good job. Now that you've put this issue to rest your job here is done and you can move on to another forum and spread this wealth there instead, right?
This.
Mauser KAR98K
05-18-11, 23:42
My favorite quote from there is one of the posters saying that AR15dotCOM has LOTS of good info.:sarcastic::jester:
I think fate had a hand in bringing me here instead of the "other" forum; they didn't want a hotmail account as a register email address, or whatever. So, I'm here amongst the better, and apparently well informed shooters.
Good post to the OP, and the list was another ray of sunshine to dry the concrete of what I learned here. Also to know that I'm not going to miss much when I start creating my new M4, funds willing.
I'm the type that it must be the best quality, no compromise. I want it to run without fail with the prescribed maintenance. Price is a litigating factor, and saving and waiting can ease the qualms of buyer's remorse. So, yeah, my next boom-stick will be Mil-Spec, and beyond if possible, with the goal of being my go-to weapon for SHTF events, sport, play, and if possible, work. Rather slay to recoup cash than spend more on inflation to replace parts while inflating anxieties. Save and get it right the first damn time. During that time, research, ask, confirm, and research again before pulling the trigger.
On a side note, BM used to be good...until the ban went away.
That reminds me of the pissing contests 1911 people get into. Colt 1991A1 vs. Springfield Milspec. Wilson vs. Les Baer. Taurus vs. Anything.
Then if you really want to get a pissing match going debate Glock vs. Smith M&P vs. XD at one of those three sites.
The way I look at it if you want the closest to a milspec rifle get a Colt 6920. If you want something similar with maybe different features there are plenty to choose from many in the same price range. You can always go cheaper and skimp. Most will probably work fine for what most peoples uses are.
One rifle that intrigues me is Smiths sport rifle that comes with no foward assist or dust cover. I probably would not use it for duty purposes but it would do just fine for shooting tin cans and as an affordable HD rifle. Now if we get our way and the chief approves personal rifles on duty Colt is my first choice. Other may be better for some but for me a 6520 would be my favorite. I would not turn down something from BCM or DD. I would certainly not crap on someone for buying a Smith and optimizing it and/or shooting the piss out of it proving its reliability. As much as I like our Colts at work we have had two end up with loose barrels.
OneInchPunch
05-18-11, 23:56
haha. I know what it's like.
There's a guy on youtube called "theARMORYchannel"
I commented on one of his videos how dpms is shit (as well as how he makes bs vids or re-makes older vids just to create more ad revenue)
and this was the response i got back lol:
"you have to be and asshole right?
so i do the same video just to make money?
thats typical comin from a guy with 67 subs. dicks like you **** up u tube for everyone. were starting a troll list and me and another of the few big channels will display the list on all of are channels just to make sure the whole gun community know who all you guys are. what did you get to many wedgies in school so you have to start shit with people that are miles away? good luck on your channel growing before the word gets out.
dude once again just cause some people had a bad time with there rifle dont condem the whole batch!!!
DPMS would have been out of business years ago!! if what you say is true i have the money to by good rifles and i picked to DPMS cause of my research!!
i cant stand assholes like you that spread roomers and blow it all out of proportion!!!
SO **** OFF!! ****EN TROLL MOTHER ****ER.
your channels done!! im putting on my front page about your rude ASS!!!
DPMS used by:
ATF
FBI
US MARINES!!! BLOW ME"
Mind you not only is this guy telling all his viewers that DPMS is a great rifle, but he's also pushing UTG accessories. When i told him that UTG is airsoft crap, he had a few more things to say to me:
"LOL WHAT A FAGGOT YOU ARE MAN!! GO SUCK YOUR DOGS COCK!!! AND SHOVE A UTG RAIL UP YOUR ASS. THE ONLY THING THATS AIRSOFT IS YOU DICK!! "
Too bad i pulled these from my emails, so i can't put exactly what i said to him. Needlessly to say, he got butthurt and blocked me soon after he sent me these messages. :jester:
i saw that, i tried to post something as well and he asked for specific examples of the DPMS being poor quality, so i went to the printed M4chart and went down the list for him...needless to say, he ignored it and then insulted me in a very similar way. i am now also blocked. oh well, he was kind of funny but i should have known better when he pulled out a Rock Island 1911 and immediately started comparing it to his Colt.....:rolleyes:
as for me ill stick with DD, oh and thanks to all the experience guys like the OP who helped me decide to sell my BM and buy a DD. it really is better to listen to you guys than to test the waters yourself. thanks again.
OIP
**** em…
Let them have their DPMS, RRA zombie apocalypse rifles.
To the op:
Nicely done. You handle people's dumbassery better than I.
My first AR was a DPMS. It was the Sportical. I appreciate that rifle for what it was... a step. I shot it, and would get various malfunctions. After I bought the rifle, I started reading about what I had, and why it was not reliable....yea...my procedure was bass-ackwards. So... I took it apart, changed out the barrel, gas block,bolt carrier grp, upper receiver...and it dawned on me that I didn't have a DPMS anymore. Thank you Bravo Company for the parts, and multiple carbines since. :D
I feel a twinge of guilt knowing that I sold my sportical parts to others. But I justify it by saying, some don't need mil-spec, and then some others need to learn the hard way.
I admit, mil-spec isn't for everyone. Some just do not care what they are shooting as long as the logo looks cool. I don't know if I would recommend a high quality rifle to people who are just going to shoot "40-100" rounds per year out of it. It will simply be a showpiece in their glass doored gun cabinet they made in wood shop.
If fact, to all the "40-100" shooters... I advise you all to buy DPMS, ROCK RIVER, OLYMPIC, BUSHMASTER, CMMG. They will suit you fine. You don't need a better carbine. Let the people who's job it is to shoot, buy the milspec rifles. Their lives depend on them.
kaiservontexas
05-19-11, 01:26
I have learned:
1) I have learned people who know me in person will listen. I have eaten my lemon and drank my lemonade . . . nevermind anything else.
Ok nevermind that covers it.
Mr. Biggles
05-19-11, 03:28
Never mind, link fixed.
Good read. Sadly that kind of stuff is what a lot of newbies like me get when looking for a rifle. I just got my first AR 15 last week. I did a lot of research and for my budget I went with a S&W M&P 15A from CDNN for $870 shipped.
So far I've enjoyed it immensely. I know it's a mid pack rifle but seems like a good value to me. What if anything is seriously deficient that I should look to correct?
Thanks
The OP demonstrated the proper way to educate people. You should follow his lead rather than try and impress the crowd.
The ratio of your posts that are critical of this site and it's members:not is tipping so far to the former over the latter that I'm having a hard time figuring out why you're still here.
Not every internut forum is for everyone. This site is a tough-love kind of thing, and other sites are for molly-coddling. Typically those that need the molly-coddling are offended by the tough love and lash out, while those that are up for it appreciate the frankness.
Rather than constantly bitching about it, why not either change it or move on?
I guess my post on that forum was out of line as well! There you have it below, as admittedly I am not an AR15 "expert" nor have I compiled a list of what's necessary for a "proper" rifle. I do hunt with them and have had a working copy or 3 in my hands for a few years or so. However I certainly would not want anyone shooting at me with any of the junk rifles out there, my dad always told me in the end "its not the arrow its the Indian". Also its a shame that the OP got so upset by the responses on GON that he felt the need to vent his frustrations on this forum.
I had a colt with a barrel where they pulled something through the barrel and produced a "straight" land on top of the twist, I had a Bushmaster that you had to run the rear sight almost all the way over to the left to get it to hit the center at 50. I have a RRA lower that has been shot several thousand rounds and it's trigger still feels fine to me, its feels better than a stock LMT trigger. I am replacing the LMT with a geissele. A chromed 1-9 RRA upper I owned held its own against a Noveske with 55 grain XM193, but there you have it, with no castle nut staking it was just junk after all.
My experience is in actually owning and using the rifles but I have not surfed all the AR15 web sites so I am not an internet expert. Also I agree with Chuckdog how do these junk manufacturers stay in business anyway, its just amazing? Actually hitting something with the rifle is kind of important to me, I reload for them as well, so accuracy ranks pretty high on my list as well.
Finally I really like the 6.8SPC idea, just cannot embrace it as there does not seem to be anything I cannot kill in Georgia with a 62 grain TSX.
Junk manufacturers stay in business because what they are producing are largely props and replicas. The average annual round count for most AR owners is so ridiculously low that they ARE better served with the lesser guns because they will never push the gun to it's limits and if it does break all it will do is ruin their afternoon at the range.
For those with a need or desire, perceived or real, to put greater numbers of rounds or greater amounts of stress on their firearms, better is better. This is why the reports we do hear of the lesser brands failing tend to be things like "Dept. X took their 25 carbines from brand Y to school Z and saw a 75% failure rate".
It is simple manufacturing economics. You know how people always joke that their cars and electronics fail right as the warranty is up? It's not a joke, it's a fact. These companies design their products to mitigate risk, and risk to them is having to send you a free one if it fails during the warranty period. Lower AR manufacturers do the same thing in simply making a product intended for the (light) use it's likely to see. Think Black and Decker or Crafstman vs. Makita or Dewalt power tools. B&D works great for the home user once or twice a year but goes TU the first day on a jobsite.
Someone with an RRA mad, check
Someone mentioning an obscure caliber piston gun, check.
Someone mentioning "tier", check
Someone mentioning that their ____ is awesome, check.
Someone mentioning the DEA contract, check.
M-16 carrier comments, check.
When you get into the local forums you get into people who just don't care. They buy what their local shop says is good, and their local shop doesn't sell a bad gun. It is a different type of person. And let's be honest, for how most of those guys shoot, it is likely that the 100 rounds a year they run through their ____ are failure free, they just have no bearing on how you are shooting and the needs you have for a rifle that looks like theirs.
I guess my post on that forum was out of line as well! There you have it below, as admittedly I am not an AR15 "expert" nor have I compiled a list of what's necessary for a "proper" rifle. I do hunt with them and have had a working copy or 3 in my hands for a few years or so. However I certainly would not want anyone shooting at me with any of the junk rifles out there, my dad always told me in the end "its not the arrow its the Indian". Also its a shame that the OP got so upset by the responses on GON that he felt the need to vent his frustrations on this forum.
Jimmy, I really didn't take issue with your post there or here, except that I didn't post this here because I was upset or to vent. I found the conversation to be entertaining and enlightening, so I shared it. Others here have found it the same.
FWIW, I typed that up for a police officer that knew nothing about AR's. He contacted me because another officer at his department was trying to sell him a used home-built rifle for over $1k. That could be a good or bad deal for him depending upon what parts were in it. I saw a similar "newbie-in-need" on GON, so I simply copied and pasted from what I had send the officer. You and I differ in both opinion and uses for our rifles. That's ok. That disagreement doesn't mean we can't be friends.
However, one person's experiences with a brand or rifle also don't dictate said rifle's quality. My experiences are a bit more than personal because of my years working at a range/shop, seeing hundreds or maybe even a thousand or more AR's work and not-work; Digging into them and fixing them for customers; building new rifles from the ground up; and yes, even reading others' experiences online. If there's one thing the internet's good for, it's sharing information. However, a person has to be able to sift the good information fromthe bad.
NoveskeFan
05-19-11, 08:41
"Unless you intend to shoot 80+ grain match bullets, I wouldn't recommend the 1/7 either. I shoot small game with 40 gr. bullets and a 1/7 may over stabilize the lighter framed short 40's and cause them to come apart in flight."
I have never heard of over stailized bullets coming apart. Does this happen? I have heard people say bullets start to break apart due to wind resistance, but never looked into it since they still hit the target.
The ratio of your posts that are critical of this site and it's members:not is tipping so far to the former over the latter that I'm having a hard time figuring out why you're still here.
Not every internut forum is for everyone. This site is a tough-love kind of thing, and other sites are for molly-coddling. Typically those that need the molly-coddling are offended by the tough love and lash out, while those that are up for it appreciate the frankness.
Rather than constantly bitching about it, why not either change it or move on?
that's exactly what I did. demonstrate to one member a better way to convey information than his method.
Please: somebody make this stop
SWATcop556
05-19-11, 10:27
Done.
GunnutAF,
This post is just as silly as your other posts when it comes to this subject. From now on stay out them because all you do is regurgitate the same old argumentative crap over and over.
Ash556
Typical got to spend $1000-1500 or it's no good! :rolleyes: Well unlike most of the folks here not everyone can spend that kind of cash!:) Not everyone wants $1000 wurth of gagets on there rifle either!:bad:
Let me put this whole "Mil Spec" crap to rest once and for all. Unless your one of the luck few that can afford to buy and actually own a M16/M4 your gun is not "Mil Spec"! It may have mil spec parts and some testing that meets Mil spec but thats it! You have a Commercially manufactured AR! I actually own 3 "Mil spec" rifle -not US spec but they are true Mil spec rifles! I also own many other Commercial grade rifles! A rifle is a rifle! Some better quality then others! Thats the way things are! You need to quit being so hung up on the Mil spec, cause Mil spec doesn't always mean better! Not one of you will say a Comercially made custom gun isn't better then any Mil spec gun cause I've held and shot some truely excellant custom guns that no "Mil Spec" gun could even compare too ever! Another point if your "Mil Spec" gun is so great then why do you spend thousands on changing it?:rolleyes:
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