View Full Version : A tribute to Carlos Hathcock: Examining the infamous "shot through a scope" shot...
Hi guys, recently I read two books based on the legendary life and career of Carlos Hathcock.
For those who are not familiar w/ this truly amazing gentlemen, wiki has a good summary and I'm quoting it's actual text on the "shot through a scope" by Carlos Hathcock which has been the source of much debate, and interest as to whether this is really fact or fiction.
"One of Hathcock's most famous accomplishments was shooting an enemy sniper through the enemy's own scope, hitting him in the eye and killing him. Hathcock and John Roland Burke, his spotter, were stalking the enemy sniper in the jungle near Hill 55, the firebase from which Hathcock was operating. The sniper had already killed several Marines and was believed to have been sent specifically to kill Hathcock. When Hathcock saw a flash of light (light reflecting off the enemy sniper's scope) in the bushes, he fired at it, shooting through the scope and killing the sniper. Surveying the situation, Hathcock concluded that the only feasible way he could have put the bullet straight down the enemy's scope and through his eye would have been if both snipers were zeroing in on each other at the same time and Hathcock fired first, which gave him only a few seconds to act. Given the flight time of rounds at long ranges, both snipers could easily have killed one another."(Wikipedia:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Hathcock)
After being wildly curious about this topic, and then watching Mythbusters all but call this humble warrior a liar while trying to confirm or deny this "shot through a scope" kill, I went ahead and started to formulate how I might try this for myself and incorporate the gun I love, the AR15...and in this case, specifically a light precision AR suited for the particular task at hand.
Mythbuster footage:
http://splodetv.com/shot-through-scope-myth
**Basically their attempt was garbage since they did not acct. for the optic that the NVA sniper would have been using vs. the much, much more robust modern day optics.
Mythbusters footage take 2
So the shortbus riders amended their procedures and revisited the myth and produced this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCV75G88-cs&feature=related
Upon even further researching...I came across a better attempt at shining light on the possibility of this and after watching this video concluded I would be at least attempting to evaluate this on my own the best way I could:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9As6AMGifSY
So now you guys should be pretty well caught up or versed on this topic and so I present to you my own personal tests, findings, and ultimately conclusion on whether Carlos Hathcock's "Shot through a scope" kill could be possible in real life.
The setup and procedure:
I used both modern day 3-9x typical hunting optics as well as modern day red dot's that from all accounts are very close to what the NVA's optic would have been like to shot through vs. the modern variable optics being no where close to what the NVA sniper would have been using and all should agree on that point.
I spent several days constructing the overall setup and how I would record it so that I could document it, and share it with others. I used 3 camera's in the testing, all shots were fired from 100yds on the tee. Both my SPR and my make shift optic device had bubble levels that were raised to the same height and then leveled perfectly. Now considering that in order to do this evaluation the way I did, sub MOA precision is mandatory for each shot given the objective lenses are what they are, and the distance being covered...Between the shooter, the AR15, and the ammo, this turned out to be quite a challenge even @ 100yds. If you note I was just slightly off the only one I didn't get just where I wanted it, and it missed it's intended mark by no more than 1/4". So with that said, I couldn't use FMJ or really anything but a few loads and I picked the hornady 55gr. vmax since I knew it would land where I wanted it to every last time.
Here is the entire setup just prior to testing.:
http://i54.tinypic.com/2mfm1lk.jpg
http://i52.tinypic.com/14uergj.jpg
Zeroing the gun perfectly for these particular shots....note the two diff. groups, with the final 2 zeroing shots being those two on the upper circle that perfectly split across the bullseye from one another.
http://i54.tinypic.com/2cfpnuv.jpg
Results and conclusion:
My Youtube video...Carlos Hathcock's "shot through a scope" using a SPR:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3gBbYAngJQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3gBbYAngJQ)
Various shots of the aftermath and a few "money shots" captured from still frames of the video footage.
Here is the perfectly executed model of the lot....perfect shot placement and a perfect through and through that just vaporized the internal components and glass, note in the video how little the actual optic moves when shot. Bottom line is that is one dead NVA sniper behind that optic.
http://i53.tinypic.com/2iiwm02.jpg
http://i54.tinypic.com/dyz4w.jpg
Another perfect through and through and this would be the last 100% successful "shot through a scope" of the day which was more than enough and was tickled to get two really spectacular results in them which go a long way into putting validity into the original acct. of Carlos's shot.
http://i52.tinypic.com/2j2xf1g.jpg
More carnage...
http://i52.tinypic.com/16ao8q0.jpg
Few action stills....
http://i51.tinypic.com/6pq9ud.jpg
http://i55.tinypic.com/5by4b6.jpg
http://i51.tinypic.com/2wg57qs.jpg
As you can see somewhat in the pics and video that I failed to exit any of the variable powered scopes however the last one filmed in the sniper's pov really came close but no cigar. It went through the red dots like a knife threw hot butter but on the very far left one was the one mistake I made and I hit the optic but it was low and to the left by about 1/4" results in not actually going lens to lens through. Ultimately, I concluded for myself that at least nobody can ever say he is a liar given that this is in my estimation a very achievable shot when looking specifically at his reported shot. This would mean shooting through a non modern optic with a larger caliber at a cpl. hundred yds. and while it would be tough as hell to hit the actual objective lens at that distance, it's certainly doable...just maybe not repeatable, one shot to the next.
chavez_e_chavez
05-18-11, 18:05
that one hell of a recreation!!! The video link will not work, i really want to see that!! About how long did it take to do the whole experiment? What did you shoot, some barska scopes??
jonconsiglio
05-18-11, 18:25
I don't know....
Mythbusters..... The Wikipedia of cable TV. :suicide:
Very kind of you to go through all that and share with everyone.
I've never had any doubt that the shot could and did happen, but seeing more confirmation makes for some nice icing anyway.
All it takes is skill, a bit more skill, oh, and some skill helps. Then 'mabe' a dash of luck and a pinch of excellent scenario, which with skill, one can healp create.
Obviously Carlos Hathcock had it in spades.
chavez_e_chavez
05-18-11, 18:51
I don't know....
You dont know what??:jester:
Holy shite, Trident....that is just outstanding! I love it! When I read the book many, many years ago, I knew right then and there that someone would challenge the claim. I didn't care, I was going to believe it no matter what. I intentionally ignored those Mythbusters episodes...mattered not to me.
-Pete
jonconsiglio
05-18-11, 19:09
You dont know what??:jester:
I had typed something about an interview I saw with him, but can't remember exactly what he said.
It was a lucky and ideal situation for the shot. I believe he was using a 30-06, plus can you imagine the scope he was using? They went into detail on one of those shows about a few other of his few hundred kills and not only did the guy possess great ability, he had the mindset and held his shit together when it mattered most.
I don't know about anyone elses experiences here, but when someone is trying to kill you, it makes the simplest of tasks much more complicated and reactions have to be in split seconds.
I don't follow this stuff at all, but it's interesting to watch if there's a show about it.
ICANHITHIMMAN
05-18-11, 19:13
lol trident you got alot of time on your hands pretty cool way to spend the day
i seen the mythbuster episode. But damn, i didn't think anyone would actually go out and try it themselves. Pretty impressive.
I had typed something about an interview I saw with him, but can't remember exactly what he said.
Excerpted:
Carlos served in Viet Nam in 1966-1967, and again in 1969. On his first tour, he used primarily
the Winchester Model 70 Target rifle in .30-06, with an 8X Unertl target scope having outside
adjustments. Speaking of this combination, he noted, "I loved it. I thought it was great, at the
time." Was the scope reliable in its adjustments and return to zero? "Yes, it worked well. I did
take off the recoil springs, however. I preferred returning the scope to battery myself each time I
shot, because then I knew it went back to the same place each time." [Readers may recall that
Hathcock had extensive competitive experience with this rifle/scope combination prior to his
arrival in Viet Nam.] Despite his prior exposure to handloaded target ammunition in .300 Win.
Mag. for competition, Carlos commented that the accuracy of the rifle was good with issued Lake
City Match ammo. and that he never used handloads to enhance accuracy. However, the Unertl
target scopes did have a tendency to fog in wet weather, which hampered his effectiveness.
chavez_e_chavez
05-18-11, 19:49
I had typed something about an interview I saw with him, but can't remember exactly what he said.
It was a lucky and ideal situation for the shot. I believe he was using a 30-06, plus can you imagine the scope he was using? They went into detail on one of those shows about a few other of his few hundred kills and not only did the guy possess great ability, he had the mindset and held his shit together when it mattered most.
I don't know about anyone elses experiences here, but when someone is trying to kill you, it makes the simplest of tasks much more complicated and reactions have to be in split seconds.
I don't follow this stuff at all, but it's interesting to watch if there's a show about it.
totally agree with you!! This was a Awesome sniper-vs-sniper duel and WE WON!!!!! Great documentary I watched on it..
That is awesome!
Great job Trident!
Cameron
Ferris2son
05-18-11, 22:35
History Channel
Sniper-Inside the Crosshairs
Great show. They looked at great shots in history and tried to duplicate them. They got the same results as Trident reports.
They featured two Hathcock incidents. The second was a 16 kill incident with an M-14, at night.
Great show.
Army Chief
05-18-11, 22:47
Very much enjoyed reading this report.
I would have never thought to do this, much less set up the shots, though I too was left to wonder what (if anything) the Mythbusters experiments really proved when I saw them on television.
Nice work on the video, too - well worth the time.
AC
xrayoneone
05-18-11, 22:59
I believe the 16 kills at night with an M14 were done by Chuck Mawhinney, all head shots they said.
DiabhailGadhar
05-18-11, 23:41
Was it just me or did the last shot send a cold chill up your spine? Nice video work that last couple of seconds really brought the lethality of that man (legend or hero would have also fit here) home...SEMPER FI and RIP!
For those of you that haven't read any of the books on that walking weapon I HIGHLY recommend them!
I had the privilege of meeting GySgt. Hathcock twice before he passed away in 1999.
Hell of a man.
I'd like to see someone pick up one of the PSO-1 scopes, which would be very similar to what was mounted on a SVD, and try it out.
ThirdWatcher
05-19-11, 01:03
... and then watching Mythbusters all but call this humble warrior a liar while trying to confirm or deny this "shot through a scope" kill...
I'm a Mythbusters fan, but I figured they just got it wrong in that episode. While I never had the honor of meeting GySgt. Hathcock, I have read his book a few times over the years and no way in hell do I believe he so much as embellished a single word in it.
kaiservontexas
05-19-11, 01:18
Mythbusters LOL bunch of crap
My friend with a chemistry degree watches that show just to debunk it.
As for the Win. Pre-64 Model 70
Well I own one.
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=15751&page=6
Yep .30-06
Only difference is in the scope.
And I have no doubt he popped that enemy in the eye through the scope. Rifle is sub-MOA feed the right ammo.
I was blown away the first time I saw reports of shooting a NVA sniper through the scope. More recently on the History channel I saw another show about Carlos Hathcock where they duplicated the feat of shooting through a scope. The episode also told the story of Carlos Hathcock shooting a NVA general. It essentially was a suicide mission, but Hathcock got away!. I would like to have met him but never did. I understand he was a trainer for the Virginia Beach Police. I do know a retired Officer who worked with Hathcock.
justin_247
05-19-11, 06:10
After being wildly curious about this topic, and then watching Mythbusters all but call this humble warrior a liar while trying to confirm or deny this "shot through a scope" kill,
Mythbusters was testing the Saving Private Ryan scene, I thought...
Any benchrest shooter will tell you mythbusters got it wrong...that ding-dong just didn't shoot straight on that episode.
Anyway, the amazing part of Hathcock's book (i got a signed copy:) ) was the patience and distance he traveled in that open field, soiling himself to get in range, make the shot and run like hell for cover.
as a deer hunter, the being still & motionless part for so long would probably have kept me from ever being a sniper if i wanted to...way to wired.
I always thought that the mythbusters major error was the range. I may be totally of base, but one would think that a bullet shot from 100-150 yards would have a better chance of making it through the optic. At such a close range the energy dump upon impact would shatter the glass, and the projectile (or at lease cause some major deflection). For example, when shooting a .223/5.56 in water the projectile barely makes it into the water before denigrating whereas a 45APC could travel much further.
In any event my first thoughts when seeing your video were about our potential enemies. Who would want to invade a country who's citizens take these types of shots for recreation.
TC
This thread is full of win. Nice Job.
Great post, thanks for sharing.
Evil1969SS>LS6
05-19-11, 08:53
Never personally met him but, my dad's best friend was good pals Carlos for many years....I remember when I was younger, he always talked about him, until later realizing who he actually was. He's deff. a legend
I did the same thing a few years ago with my 6.5-284. I had a cheap scope that went tits-up. The particular scope I used may have been a bit beefier, but the bullet came out of the erector tube right past the turret housing and exited the main tube right before the eye-piece. Would have been a head shot if somebody were behind the rifle. I wanted to try it two or three times, but didn't feel like shooting up more scopes.
Mythbusters LOL bunch of crap
My friend with a chemistry degree watches that show just to debunk it.
As for the Win. Pre-64 Model 70
Well I own one.
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=15751&page=6
Yep .30-06
Only difference is in the scope.
And I have no doubt he popped that enemy in the eye through the scope. Rifle is sub-MOA feed the right ammo.
I'm pretty sure the 70s used by our guys in Vietnam were target models with medium-heavy barrels and a wee bit different stock. Also believe they were pre-war models. Yours just has in common that its a Model 70 and .30-06. Still a sweet rifle and a great story behind it! Treasure it!
http://www.texasbrigadearmory.com/images/M70-A.700.jpg
Very cool Trident. Nice photography and awesome effort.
I've never doubted Hathcock made the shot. Saw a show on the military channel about him some time ago. Wish I could remember the name of it.
Dist. Expert 26
05-19-11, 15:21
No doubt that shots possible, the mythbusters would be hard pressed to figure out which end the bullet comes out of.
As for Carlos Hathcock, well no disrespect meant, as he was definitely a great sniper, but I've heard from some of our snipers that a lot of his stories are BS, specifically the 3-day skull drag and the 2000+ yard shot with an M2 (not even feasible given the equipment available and the accuracy of the weapon)
Chuck Mawhinney is the guy to talk about. He killed 16 NVA in under a minute using an M14 and a 1st gen starlite scope, as well as having 103 confirmed kills. Just my .02
The M2 shot was at 1000 yards, sand-bagged with a 10x Unertl. Having met and talked to him myself, he is far from a braggart and I would suspect BS on others before him.
It has been ten+ years since I've read the book but I thought there were photos of the gun set up and the dead guy/kid on the bike.
I'd say its shitty to call into question the Gunny's honor.
Nice write up and experiment, OP. I don't doubt he did it.
Thanks for the kind words guys, and I'm glad some enjoyed viewing it.
Few more pics including some of that last optic shot....so, so close to actually busting through a big boy optic. I have to think that if I can land a barnes 55gr. TSX or a Hornady 62 gr. TAP Barrier round just perfectly or the same as in this example shown below, it would go through to through. I would hope the TSX actually does turn into a huge wadcutter once it hits that first thick front lens.
As you can see a Vmax blew everything outta the way up til the very rear lens where it put a nice wallop on it as denoted by the shattered glass and ripped apart internals. All things considered, I was extremely impressed with damage a 55gr. Vmax @ 100yds did to this specific example/optic when I inspected them in more detail.
http://i53.tinypic.com/332qe5z.jpg
http://i52.tinypic.com/10y2mo9.jpg
Fragments that actually made contact with rear lens...
http://i54.tinypic.com/2hp7x1j.jpg
Mass grave:
http://i52.tinypic.com/2j15wrb.jpg
Few more "money shots"..consecutive individual video frames
http://i51.tinypic.com/f23n61.jpg
http://i52.tinypic.com/qph2j9.jpg
Even if the shot never happened the man still has 93 confirmed kills and I'm sure MANY more that were never confirmed...
ThirdWatcher
05-20-11, 04:32
I'd say its shitty to call into question the Gunny's honor.
... especially since he's not here to defend himself.
GSgt.Carlos Hathcock was riding in an APC that struck a mine and set it on fire. He was burned over a good part of his body while pulling Marines from the wreckage. Regardless of what anyone may think of his stories, that selfless act itself makes him a great hero
Dist. Expert 26
05-20-11, 09:50
There is no doubt that the man is certainly a hero, that was never called into question. I'm just relaying the opinions of professionals who say that some of Gunny Hathcock's stories are not entirely plausible. Sorry if I offended anyone, but I'm just trying to offer a different side of the story.
Just for clarification, the M2 shot he was accredited with having made was at 2500 yards. Even with a purpose built sniper rifle, hits at that range are extremely tricky to pull off. I find it hard to believe that anyone, regardless of skill, can make a machine gun fire accurately enough to hit a man at that distance with a single shot.
Very interesting thread Trident. Thanks for taking the time to test it out. I thoroughly enjoyed it.
One thing to remember about Carlos and his time in theater was that he was operating in an extremely target rich environment....and he specifically did "chores" for the CIA like giving a particular frenchman who was working for the NVA to help torture and "interrogate" downed American airmen a dirtnap w. a 30-06 to the dome, as well as any other mission that required the U.S.'s best sniper at that time.
He was put in the position to be a winner far more than the avg. joe, and chose to win every damn time. That combined w. by all accounts world class shooting ability, and ice cubes in his veins, made these unbelievable sniper kill/shots possible.
Men like Carlos don't come around too often, I don't believe in the easter bunny, santa clause, or the tooth fairy....but sure as hell believe in Carlos Hathcock:cool:
SoulStealer
05-20-11, 10:26
great thread...thanks Trident
He did one thing that in my jugement is very unusual. He wore the white feather and became known by that name. This allowed the NVA to target him. It is my understanding that snipers are normally annomyous during their time in theater. It could be that he wore the white feather to psyche out the enemy or he could have been wanting recognition. Myself, I will credit it to the former. One thing is obvious, is that he was aware of his (rather unique) ability.
Man, I hate punditry. I would have to say that some of what occurred, particularly with the 2500yd M2 shot, has been lost to both legend and time. I have no doubt that the narrative provided in Henderson's book was somewhat embellished and incorrect on some details. Gunny Hathcock also eventually lost the ability to recall details and so legend takes over some of the realities of his exploits.
Like others here, I had an opportunity to talk to "the Gunny" years ago (among a small group of 5 or 6 guys, not one on one). Henderson's book had just been published, so it was a popular topic of conversation. He specifically told us that the shot on the kid riding the bike was "lucky". The M2 "clicked over" right onto the bike (his description was similar to that, though I cannot remember the words he used - I believe he was referring to the T&E) and the shot knocked over the bike. The POI on the first shot allowed him to make the follow up killshot. HE put it down to luck. The shot was confirmed by his spotter AND (apparently) 2 NCO's in the patrol that collected the weapons from the road where the boy was shot (or so we were told).
Hathcock was quiet and unassuming. The man was a walking battle scar and yet he told no "war stories" to us. He just answered our questions politely and with some obvious affection - I felt like a younger brother.
My Scout Sniper School certificate hangs in my office - signed by Carlos Hathcock (I'm dating myself). I believe the man I met to have the utmost integrity. What he did on the battlefield went above and beyond what most of us can imagine doing. Details and distances are largely meaningless to me at this point.
Pictures speaks volumes, or at least they do for me....these are some of the coolest shots of Carlos while in Vietnam.
Check out their starlight scopes....busting NVA/VC ass after dark:cool:
http://my-universe.at.ua/CarlosHathcock.jpg
Optic on a .50 cal...kinda cool if your into that sort of thing I guess;)
http://www.opticstalk.com/uploads/3182/300px-Carlos_Hathcock-M2.jpg
http://snipershots.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Carlos-Hathcock-300x225.jpg
heavytank2
05-20-11, 18:33
Really? Mythbusters better stick to the unmanly topics. Both of them have questionable sexuality at best.
I just used a standard RRA chrome lined 1/9 twist middy with XM193 to make a 2" group at 225 yards (4 shots), one of them a bullseye. 9x scope, no float. Surprised the hell out of me.
Carlos had a .30-06 bolt gun. You do the math.
... especially since he's not here to defend himself.
I agree.
http://www.snipercentral.com/latimes.htm
Cool thread, good shooting as usual. You really took your time to set up and execute this. Thanks for sharing.
justin_247
05-21-11, 10:10
Please ignore the original post. My apologies.
It should be noted that Mythbusters revisited the myth and confirmed that it could have happened.
I usually think the mythbuster's do a fair job. However if has anything to do w. a firearm, they go Insta-shortbus rider:D
Sniper's POV ret. cam....
http://i55.tinypic.com/9hs95e.jpg
Just adding a little historical info. Depending on what kind of scopes the NVA had available it might have been a PU scope of ww2 vintage and later. This is whats inside them as Ive had to rebuild a couple. Pretty stout what with the internal lense assembly being made of solid steel but the middle lense only being less than 1/4 inch in diameter. Not good for light transmission.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/snekrz/Mosin%20Nagant/pusplode.jpg
Wow, did you forget to include in your pic the kitchen sink located in that optic as well:D That is a ton of internals!
Thanks very much for sharing that with us, now I do really want to take Templar's suggestion and try and find one of these PU types to evaluate.
I read Carlo's book when it first came out and have watched video taped interviews of him. He always struck me as a humble person with no need to be a braggart or lie about his job. He also won the Wimbelton Cup 1000yd match at Camp Perry. IIRC it was in 1965 before he went to Vietnam so he was very well versed in long range shooting before going overseas.
And thanks Trident for your efforts in recreating the shot.
JB
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/snekrz/Mosin%20Nagant/pusplode.jpg
Damn. That looks like that little transister radio I took apart when I was 10 years old. I never did get that SOB back together again.
the coolest shots of Carlos while in Vietnam.
Check out their starlight scopes....busting NVA/VC ass after dark:cool:
http://my-universe.at.ua/CarlosHathcock.jpg
Not even close, Bill Lancaster's pic of 25th ID snipers in 1969
http://snipershots.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Carlos-Hathcock-300x225.jpg
BOLO again, LCPL Dalton Gunderson and RTO LCPL Jerry Dunomes, 3/7 Marines, Operation Virginia 1966
Not to sharp shoot anybodies efforts on anything here, but the thoughts I had when reading this thread...
Just because the bullet went through the scope, doesn't mean he wasn't just aiming center mass to the head (unless he stated otherwise, I don't know). The scope impact could have been coincidental.
Since a 55 grain 5.56 bullet won't act the same as a 147 grain bullet (or whatever pill the '06 was slinging down range), I think I would go about it this way:
...estimate the velocity of the projectile he was using at the range he shot the target
...handload a cartridge that would achieve the target velocity with the correct bullet type and weight at 50 yards or so.
..and I would have assumed the optic to be a PU or something similar..so shoot into a similar optic
kantstudien
04-14-13, 03:54
Wow, people still watch Mythbusters?
The Mythbusters motto: If we can't replicate it, it's IMPOSSIBLE!
:rolleyes:
Great tests!
Hathcock wouldn't be the legend he is unless there were doubters.....haters gonna hate.
I first met Gunny when he used to come and give the Effects of weather class at the Sniper Instructor School ( talk about dating yourself) at Quantico. Later when I ran the 2ed Mar Div School at Stone Bay we used to go up to Gunny's place in Va Beach spend the night at his house and drive him down for Graduation and to sign the Students books. ( Which I never knew at that time He did not get a dime for the soft copies of the book published only the hard copies).
He was neither a braggart or a liar. He was one of the most honorable Marines I ever met and a true legend of the Corps.
When I graduated from SSIS he wasn't able to come to our graduation. The replacement guest speaker was a good guy, but everyone just wanted to meet Gunny.
Later when I ran the 2ed Mar Div School at Stone Bay we used to go up to Gunny's place in Va Beach spend the night at his house and drive him down for Graduation and to sign the Students books.
The meeting I described earlier in this thread took place at one of these graduations (Stone Bay). I was quite possibly one of your students.
Here's a pic from my graduation with Gunny Hathcock as the guest speaker. The Marine on the right is Sgt. Smith. An *awsome* instructor who was (I heard) later killed in a car crash.
Semper Fi and RIP to both.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/13733808/PD_0043.jpg
Awesome sir!
The only thing mythbusters proves is that they can get good ratings.
After reading about him I was as impressed by his character as much as his talent. I like to think he was the filthy guy with the big scope who walked out of the bush to thumb a ride on Plantation Road in 1969.
5cary yes Smitty was a good friend and a great instructor and devote of the Gunny and yes he died in his beloved Corvette at a high rate of speed. That means you probably remember some of the other instructors. Rodriquiz, Krist, Hunt, Langdon, and of course Hambone, who taught marksmanship
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