View Full Version : Saiga-12, good gun?
I posted this on a shotgun website a couple of days ago and I got only 1 response. It was a very positive response. I'm looking to get a Saiga 12ga, with NJ compliant hunting stock. I have a WInchester 120, Rem 870, Mossberg 590 and Mossberg 930 (semi auto). Is the Saiga at least as reliable as my Mossberg 930, which is very reliable? I know they are popular but I haven't looked into them till now, and reliability is my number 1 concern. No use having a semi auto if it's gonna jam on you.
Thanks for your help.
I had one but sold it ,I had it for about 8 years never once gave me a problem.
the only thing I did not like is the mag swap under movement ,it took a little to get use to.I sold it and went back to the 870 tactical .I can load it faster.
It was a fun weapon to blast and the on lookers always amazed ,But for me it did not fit my needs in a defense shotgun .
Did it go through diff types of ammo reliably like 00 buck and light birdshot? I think it has an adjustment for light and heavy loads, right?
If the mag works like on the Saiga 7.62x39 rifle then I see why that would be a challenge. I always gotta align my Saiga rifle mag just right for it to click in correctly. Thanks.
If you didn't happen to get a Vodka special yes they will eat most ammo. There was a run of shotguns that had misaligned gas ports that was giving guys fits but if you send it back to one of the factory certified shops they will take care of that issue under warranty. They also use different gas port configurations and sizes as well as how many ports they actually have. Some have 2 ports that are quite large other have 3 ports of medium size (mine is this way) and then they had 4 port guns with small ports. If everything is lined up correctly all seem to shoot equally well. Loading can be a bit tricky but you can get used to it. There are several companies making gas plugs that are very adjustable and bolt polishing makes a big difference. I love mine it's a hoot to shoot. I happen to live in Michigan so I can play with my 20 round drum mags for fun but man it eats ammo quick. I would suggest you try forum.saiga-12.com for alot of info. But just as it is here read the sticky's and try the search before asking alot of questions or you might get reprimanded quickly. There are even guys making a LRBHO which makes the mag changes easier as you're not compressing the mag springs with the first shell hitting the bolt. On your Saiga rifle are you using surplus mags or mags made specifically for the Saiga? Could be part of your problem changing mags. Surplus mags take some filing to the mag release and the mag itself to work smoothly.
Some are reliable, some need work. I've purchased two. The first was converted when I bought it. It ran poorly for the first 100 or so rounds, then ran OK. It would benefit from a bolt polish and an MD Arms gas regulator. The second was as imported and ran right out of the box.
I would highly recommend reading the Siaga-12 forum before purchasing one.
Just_Plain_T.
05-20-11, 14:45
It takes practice to be good at reloads, but once you're good your reloading is far faster than conventional shotgun reloading.
Mine has been reliable, just needed to be placed on gas setting 2 for some lighter birdshot loads. Not one hiccup outside of that, though I also recommend reading up on the Saiga 12 forums.
I've had mine for 4 years. Used it as imported for most of that time, did my own conversion later.
Really man just go to www.forum.saiga-12.com and you'll find everything you need to know. I have a quadrail on mine now but am seriously considering putting wood furniture on it as it's just too SEXY . Mine will dump the whole 5 round mag before the 2nd shell hits the ground (sometimes before the 1st one hits but I can't do it every time). If I could SBS it I would but we aren't allowed to do that in Michigan.
They can be hit and miss. I had some serious gas issues with mine until I installed an aftermarket adjustable gas regulator.
I don't wanna roll the dice to see if I get a good one. My Mossberg 930 is very reliable. Maybe I should just leave it at that and save $800. Just curious, several people have mentioned that it cycles very fast. Is that something that is unique to this gun, or better on this gun than most? And why is that? Is it because the shell just travels up about an inch from the mag instead of backwards 2 3/4 inches from a mag tube on a conventional semi, therefore being in position to get chambered faster?
Alaskapopo
05-21-11, 00:13
I posted this on a shotgun website a couple of days ago and I got only 1 response. It was a very positive response. I'm looking to get a Saiga 12ga, with NJ compliant hunting stock. I have a WInchester 120, Rem 870, Mossberg 590 and Mossberg 930 (semi auto). Is the Saiga at least as reliable as my Mossberg 930, which is very reliable? I know they are popular but I haven't looked into them till now, and reliability is my number 1 concern. No use having a semi auto if it's gonna jam on you.
Thanks for your help.
A properly set up Saiga 12 makes all other shotgun obsolete. By properly set up I mean with a mag well from R&R that allows you to reload as fast as an AR15. That and a good compensator and optic. But the down side a tricked out Saiga is expensive. I have 3k into mine from R&R targets. But there is simply no comparision with tube guns. I can reload a fresh 12 round mag in 3 seconds. To give you an idea at a recent three gun match on a stage with 15 targets I ran it in 10.6 or so seconds. The next fastest person (all using tube guns) was at 26 seconds.
The biggest issue for reliablity with these guns when using bird shot is to use shells with good slick hulls like Winchester double AA's. I have never had an issue with slugs or buck either.
Here is mine.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/shotguns/Saiga12RR.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/shotguns/saiga12gauge.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/shotguns/safety.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/shotguns/Magrelease.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yh8QCaCQzy0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djh4dFWUCr0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrNftrfOiZ0
moses in maine
05-21-11, 08:54
A properly set up Saiga 12 makes all other shotgun obsolete. By properly set up I mean with a mag well from R&R that allows you to reload as fast as an AR15. That and a good compensator and optic. But the down side a tricked out Saiga is expensive. I have 3k into mine from R&R targets. But there is simply no comparision with tube guns. I can reload a fresh 12 round mag in 3 seconds. To give you an idea at a recent three gun match on a stage with 15 targets I ran it in 10.6 or so seconds. The next fastest person (all using tube guns) was at 26 seconds.
The biggest issue for reliablity with these guns when using bird shot is to use shells with good slick hulls like Winchester double AA's. I have never had an issue with slugs or buck either.
Here is mine.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/shotguns/Saiga12RR.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/shotguns/saiga12gauge.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/shotguns/safety.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/shotguns/Magrelease.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yh8QCaCQzy0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djh4dFWUCr0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrNftrfOiZ0
Thats very nice set up you have there !
? were those sure fire 12 round mags you running in that saiga ? I just got my first saiga back in febuary , I have not had a chance to shoot it yet , but i got a bunch of the sure fire 8 , 10 , and 12 round mags . so are the sure fire mags in your opinion GTG ? does the fact that they do not have metal feed lips make them more prone to fail ?
thanks !
Alaskapopo
05-21-11, 11:24
The mags are 12 rounders and they haved worked well for me. They have been modified by Rob at R&R targets so they work with his magwell and they will no longer work in a standard gun. (top of mag has to be removed and a whole cut for the mag catch)
Pat
The things that it takes to get a M4C lurker out of their hole.. ;)
Both of my Saigas ran without issue out of the box. I bought my first years before the current spike in cost, at the time one could pick up either Saiga 12s or 20s for $250-380 per.. I don't know if I'd have bought one at current prices.
There were a number of early models that were quite unreliable, unaffectionately known as "vodka specials", as a previous poster mentioned. No longer a problem with more current production.
The manufacturing tolerances are not extremely consistent, so functionality with any particular load may vary from gun to gun. Mine shot whatever I loaded in them. Others may have difficulty with some birdshot loads, such as with some of the cheap universal Walmart stuff, for example. It's just necessary to find those that work well on your individual gun. Winchester AA's are one of the better choices for light loads. Buckshot loads don't seem to have the feeding issues that some report on the light stuff.
The gas piston may require cleaning for proper function anywhere from several hundred to several thousand rounds. That said, on my range Saiga I haven't cleaned the piston in around 2,800 rounds, more out of curiosity than anything, and despite incredible amounts of fouling, I have yet to encounter any issues with it impacting function.
The only problems I've experienced have been with aftermarket box mags. AGP Gen 1s can have feeding issues. Both of mine required disassembly and sanding for proper function, and I keep them only for range use. AGP Gen 2s are good, though the factory Izhmash 5 and 8 round mags are built like tanks (metal internal reinforcement, Russian milspec polymer/springs, etc), and might be the best choice if one is willing to pay the cost. The Izhmash 8s will run you $120-$150 per mag, and are hard to find. Many report good experiences with the Surefire 10 and 12 rounders, though I can't speak from experience. Some report deformation of shells left in 10 and 12 round mags for prolonged periods of time, inhibiting proper feeding, as well as tensile strength issues with the springs on some brands of 12 rounders left loaded, though I've had neither of these issues with 10 round AGP Gen 2s.
The mags are rock and lock like other Saigas and AKs. Loading full mags on a closed bolt has been a reported difficulty, though I didn't have an issue with it. Could be mag design, or simply the inherent differences in tolerances from gun to gun. Some Saiga gunsmiths do a mod specifically to make loading on a closed bolt easier with 8 and 10 round magazines, though again, my Saigas didn't have an issue with that even prior to the trip to Tromix.
As earlier posters noted, there are aftermarket gas regulators available to adjust your gas up or down depending on the needs of your individual gun. Functionality and recoil on any given load can change noticeably, depending on your gas setting.
Good mags are perhaps your biggest concern as far as reliability goes. As far as modifications, there are pros out there that are willing to do nearly anything you can think up to a Saiga, from basic reliability tweaks to truly crazy stuff. Tromix, R&R, Etac, Red Jacket, Cadiz.. though the legal modifications are more limited in NJ. Take a look around the Saiga-12.com forums, and search the information that has been posted. There are a a few people there who know a lot.
As I mentioned earlier the "vodka specials" were the ones that gave guys fits as most of them had gas ports partially covered up or completely covered up this issue has been resolved as far as I have heard and can be easily remedied if you happened to get one as Cadiz will take it and fix it and tune it for you under the warranty. The gas ports being partially blocked was why it would be hit and miss with light loads. Mine worked right out of the box and I've had mine for 2 years now and it's a 3 port gun. I got mine for around $400.00 new so if I had to spend $800.00 for one I might take a hard look at the Turkish 12ga that looks like an AR. Tony Rumore has one already in SBS form and says it's a very promising shotgun.
On your Saiga rifle are you using surplus mags or mags made specifically for the Saiga? Could be part of your problem changing mags. Surplus mags take some filing to the mag release and the mag itself to work smoothly.
They are Izhmash oem mags. I just tried it and it wasn't as bad as I remember. But if I try to insert it slightly tilted to the left or right it won't go in. Part of the prob is that I'm used to the ar15 ergonomics. I have a similar prob on my mini 14 and m1a.
I've had four, individuals from several different importers. They are more friendly to tinker with than most shotguns. If you like a project, they are well worth your time.
Mine ran reliably right out of the box. I sent the couple that I purchased and one of my friends to a certain gun smith that converts them and they came back all screwed up. Only one of them shot when they got back and the cover would fly off of it when it did. I have not gotten back around to taking them back to him. I would not buy something/anything from him again. Again, the guns were rock solid reliable before they left so I would definately buy a new one again.
BCMaDdIcT13
01-04-12, 19:16
My S-12 SBS 8" Will built me is GTG. With a MD-20 drum and 00 buck = total destruction.
I just received mine from my FFL.
I plan to shoot Saturday.http://img.tapatalk.com/18fe9fbd-1d62-5878.jpg
iPad/Tapatalk
I'm inclined to share my experiences with the Saiga 12 as I've had my stripped farther than most and I've had enough time to gauge different aspects and functions with it.
If you're used to a Benelli or even a nice 1100, this is not going to be a familiar gun to you. In fit, function, and controls it's all AK baby! This is a good and bad thing. No one buys AK's because of the ergonomics or controls, and likewise no one should expect better on the Saiga. This things are rough.
The so called Vodka Specials are so of an exaggeration imo. Yes, sometimes there are goofy things, grind marks on the barrel for instance, some barrels are glued and pressed into the receiver with the force of Thor's hammer - others practically fall out with the cross pin removed.
My S12 started as a 24". It was the only one I could find locally before the ban scare. I picked it up, and immediately decided 24" would NOT do. These are not light guns by any means. I managed with very little online assistance to removed the barrel, cut it to 18.1", add two gas ports to the existing two for a total of four, drill all four out to 3/32", and re-thread the muzzle in it's metric call out. I noted little online assistance because very few people strip these guns down to the bare receiver.
Note: IT WAS A BITCH TO GET THE BARREL BACK IN.
That said, I'll never take one down that far again, just no thank you. There are shops that work on Saigas and I'd happily send to them for that work.
Note: There are a lot of shops that are doing Saiga work, I'd be aware of who you are asking to what and for how much. A lot of the "conversion" is extremely simple and if you can't handle it, you might want to reconsider owning this gun.
Anyhow, by opening the now 4 gas ports to 3/32" I intentionally "over-gassed" my gun. I put quotes because a lot of the conventional knowledge on the Saiga-12 forum is very wrong. I was both to open up to 3/32 and to NEVER DO THAT!!!!!! Well, I did and it works great. I am using the "Autoplug" a cool auto regulating gas system addition, there is nothing wrong with the manual versions though.
Note: Almost all of the "Saiga is unreliable" people tried using a stock gun with walmart bulk loads. By opening the ports I can shoot this stuff as well as 3" slugs. I do suggest the Tac-47 autoplug though only if you have enough gas to make light loads work. Lots of people get a gas plug and expect it to solve all their problems.
The main issue with the Saiga I have is reloads. While, yes, it is possible to swap in a 8 or 10 or 12 round mag or drum, it's VERY VERY VERY difficult to do on a closed bolt!!
Note: VERY DIFFICULT at rest, I estimate near impossible under stress
The supporting issue is the there is no Last Round Bolt Hold Open on factory guns with aftermarket mags. There is an aftermarket LRBHO, but I've read poor reviews regarding install.
So what you have is a gun that is difficult to load on a close bolt, and does not have bolt hold open. Fantastic! Good idea Russia! :)
I have come to the following conclusion on the Saiga-12... It's best used for:
Three Gun / Race / Competition
If you're going to really modify this gun, go for it. IMO, the only major modification needed is a mag-well. In fact, absolutely VITAL. While LRBHO is cool and all, the Rock And Lock method of putting the mag in sucks compared to just straight in - drop free. And it always will.
SBS
There is no better option for a breaching or short barreled semi-auto shot gun. A 12" that still has the ability to quickly load 5-12-20 fresh rounds is unbeatable (read: has a mag-well). This however requires custom piston work, custom gas port work, and this adds up. Don't forget the tax stamp, and you're into a $1500-2000+ SBS.
Fun Range Toy
If mag changes under pressure are not an issue, get one of those heavy and impractical 20 round drums and have a great time!
Having owned one for awhile now, I can not possible recommend it as a Personal or Home defense gun, it's rough from the factory, and it's finicky unless you really get into it. Even then without a good mag-well (which doesn't really exist, TAC-47 has a nice looking on, but it's $190 or so and I haven't seen a single one reviewed yet). Mags are also an issue SGM, AGP, MD-Drums, Promag, Factory Izmesh, and others all work, only SGM appears to work with mag-wells. IMO this is not good enough, I need to know mags will be available for the gun and one company is not good enough for me.
If you put a mag well on it (newest Russian guns are getting the default), mags that are reliable, and put a lot of time into learning the gun, it's probably great. I'm just not in love with it yet.
R and R makes one hell of a saiga 12. I run a Russian polymer magwell on both my s12's. Surefire mags require a back shim to take out the slop. A saiga 12 is a great shotgun to tinker on. I have a functional automatic last round bolt hold open on my first s12.
I run a Russian polymer magwell on both my s12's.
...
I have a functional automatic last round bolt hold open on my first s12.
Pretty much required imo. I'm going to look into the OE Russian magwell and see what it takes to get factory 5 rounds and other mags to work in it. One thing I like about the Tac47 is it's mag release button and it hold the grip as well. I'm not crazy about how it attaches by tapping very thin sheet metal or the price!
The Knuckle
02-21-12, 23:42
I have a functional automatic last round bolt hold open on my first s12.
Can you elaborate on this?
It was an early accessory sold on saiga 12 forum. It uses a right sided armature to pivot a modified bolt hold open. Requies a slight modification to the right side of the magazine. Required a lot of tuning, and the guy stopped making them because people complained too much.
Can anyone give me some reliable places to purchase one from? Thanks
Tromix
RJF
Have a S-12 8" SBS for Will about 3 years old and never a failure.
20rds. of 00 buck in a MD-20 drum. Whats not to like.:D
Just compelted a CT-compliant conversion on mine using a Dragunov stock (we can't have pistol grips on semi-autos in CT). The FCG conversion was the easiest part--modifying the stock to fit took well over an hour and I'm not 100% happy with it, but it will do for now. Next up is a trip to the range to see how she shoots. :D
They all take some tweaking, but well worth the effort.
blue5t1050
04-22-12, 17:04
Thanks for the info!
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