View Full Version : Oakland PD recalls new sidearms....
http://www.foxreno.com/news/27972227/detail.html
ETA... A quote from a guy on another forum. The article states that they were 9mm's, but the guns were Gen4 G22's.
I work for the Oakland School Police, and can answer some of these questions.
They are doing range quals this week. Some of the gen 4 guns were experiencing double feeds and stovepipe malfunctions. Some guns had the problems go away after changing recoil springs, some did not get fixed by swapping out the spring. A lot experienced problems with lights attached to the rail. Thus, the recall of all 800 or so Glocks.
The news (if you can believe it) was wrong about the caliber. OPD has never issued Glock 17's. They switched from the gen 3 Glock 22 to gen 4's.
Glock's official statement on this event: "Limp Wristing";)
They should be looking at extractors and ejectors too. Over focus on the RSAs is a mistake IMO based on learnings in recent months.
Robb Jensen
05-21-11, 06:01
Sample of 1:
My Glock 22 Gen 4 without the counter bored slide for the recoil spring (very early Gen 4) has 5400 rounds though it without 1 stoppage (3500 rounds with a Surefire X300 on it, 500 rounds with a Streamlight TLR-2). 4500 rounds of that was with the original unmarked recoil spring.
It now has the new 0 1 1 recoil spring in it and continues to run 100% with all ammo tested.
So...I'm thinking ... should I get the Gen 3 Glock 21 now, or wait until they put out a Gen 4 version.
I bought a Gen 4 Glock 26 and it performs flawlessly and I've got around 600 rounds through it.
Robb Jensen
05-21-11, 06:39
So...I'm thinking ... should I get the Gen 3 Glock 21 now, or wait until they put out a Gen 4 version.
I bought a Gen 4 Glock 26 and it performs flawlessly and I've got around 600 rounds through it.
The large frame Glocks (20s, 21s, 29s & 30s) were designed to be 10mms so shooting much lower pressured .45ACP in them is easy on them. Personally I like the Glock 21SF with the standard style mag catch and Glock rail not the picatinny rail. The Gen 4 grip texture would be preferred over the Gen 3.
Thanks, I'm trying to decide between the Glock 21 and the 21SF. I have fairly large hands, for instance, I have to buy XL gloves.
This is too bad. It's like glock caved to the collective stupidity of the gun realm and ****ed up a good thing.
Thanks, I'm trying to decide between the Glock 21 and the 21SF. I have fairly large hands, for instance, I have to buy XL gloves.
In deciding between the two, try firing both and see how you do. I don't have large hands, but I really like, and do well with, my Gen 3 "big butt" G21. While my hand definitely displaces differently on its larger frame (particularly compared to my G17/G19/G34), I find that I actually have a very effective natural index with the large frame.
I've resolved the slight slipperiness when hands are wet issue inherent to the Gen 3 frame size/texture (or relative lack thereof) with a mountain bike innertube grip sleeve. It's thin, and provides just the right amount of tackiness. I'm satisfied to the point that I've pretty much ended my quest for a Gen 3 RTF 2, and/or my interest in the upcoming Gen4 G21SF.
Best, Jon
Robb Jensen
05-21-11, 07:53
This is too bad. It's like glock caved to the collective stupidity of the gun realm and ****ed up a good thing.
Or possibly it's a software problem not a hardware problem. Some should only carry revolvers.....
I've resolved the slight slipperiness when hands are wet issue inherent to the Gen 3 frame size/texture
Best, Jon
Have you tried Talon grips? Hickok45 loves them.
Or possibly it's a software problem not a hardware problem. Some should only carry revolvers.....
Are you saying all the glock problems are shooter induced?
Are you saying all the glock problems are shooter induced?
holy shit, lets take what someone said and blow it out of proportion by saying "all glock problems".
Rob, too bad you don't work on weekends. A buddy and I are swinging by to pick up a HK45 today.
Happy Velocirapture Day
Poor engrish skill on my part, by all I meant the OPD problems.
Or possibly it's a software problem not a hardware problem. Some should only carry revolvers.....
I doubt that it's a software problem. The Officers had Gen3 G22's before, so they are familiar with Glocks. If they were just touching Glocks for the first time, then I can see that it might be a software issue.
According to the local CBS news channel, 400 gen4 G22 40 S&W are being recalled and their gen3 G22 are re-issued back to the officers. The reporter stated it was the RSA that was causing the malfunctions.
Gas operated shotguns are starting to replace recoil operated ones in LE due to the various attachements that are put on them. I wonder if we'll see new gas operated pistols on the market to help compensate for the numerous attachments that we put on our pistols now days. Might make it easier for reddot sights too.
Beat Trash
05-21-11, 11:34
It's a good thing that Oakland PD still had their old guns to re-issue...
dwhitehorne
05-21-11, 11:57
It's a good thing that Oakland PD still had their old guns to re-issue...
I'm surprised they didn't trade them in on the new Glocks. Probably kept them around until the transition was complete. David
"Trash It's a good thing that Oakland PD still had their old guns to re-issue..."
Not really, as one of the reasons why OPD transitioned was because of persistent malfunctions with their previous 3rd gen G22's when lights were mounted...
So...I'm thinking ... should I get the Gen 3 Glock 21 now, or wait until they put out a Gen 4 version.
I went G21 SF, with pic light rail. I'm no Glock expert, so I went with tried and true, Gen 3 . Igunz got me a vickers mag release which I do like and see as an improvement.
In the end, Glock will fix whatever flaws they induce with new Gen's, they are too simple of a gun and easy to fix as a whole.
Here is a local news story...
http://www.ktvu.com/news/27972227/detail.html
B
Beat Trash
05-22-11, 12:07
Not really, as one of the reasons why OPD transitioned was because of persistent malfunctions with their previous 3rd gen G22's when lights were mounted...
Did not know that. Sounds like their Officers are screwed either way, taking a gamble on their guns functioning.
Now would be a good time for the regional S&W LE rep to make a visit with some T&E M&P40's...
It will be interesting to see how Glock handles this situation. One of the primary complaints of late has been Glocks inability to admit that their products are not perfect.
After seeing and shooting several hundred of their recent production Gen 3 17's and 22's, I would sooner switch back to my old 92F than carry one of their current offerings.
I detest the "generation" nomenclature, even though Glock has itself begun use of it. Even within the "generations" themselves, there have been a number of subtle changes in various components that provide far more useful diagnostic utility and correlations than the major categorization. Most folks will have no clue, and just extrapolate good or bad information far beyond its applicability.
OPD does have at least 1 M&P 40 that they had been testing prior to this media release.
-Randy
Wow. This may hurt our proposal to upgrade our Swat guns to gen 4. I will be keeping an eye on this for a little while.
It's a good thing that Oakland PD still had their old guns to re-issue...
Not all of them...some were showing up on the used market a little while ago:
http://calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=6124678
-- Michael
If S&W pulled it's corporate head out of its rectum, they could dominate the LE market, yet it continues to appear that S&W's corporate "leadership" is inexplicably intent on destroying all the goodwill and market share that S&W's superb LE reps have tried to generate for the company. The factory needs to stop LYING to agencies, start making deliveries when PROMISED, and ensure the CORRECT product is shipped...rather than ride in like a knight on shining armor to save the day, S&W's corporate weasels are proving they can be just as insolent and insipid as Glock and SIG have been of late--maximize profit by screwing end-users.
crazymoose
05-22-11, 23:10
Or possibly it's a software problem not a hardware problem. Some should only carry revolvers.....
Whenever I hear that a police department (usually a large one) is having problems with a particular weapon, this is also my first suspicion. Having said that, large departments also simply represent a larger sample size and are more likely to have issues, simply as a function of the numbers.
Not really, as one of the reasons why OPD transitioned was because of persistent malfunctions with their previous 3rd gen G22's when lights were mounted...
I would leave the light off the weapon, in that case.
I would leave the light off the weapon, in that case.
That would be my solution.
Best, Jon
Regardless of whether the malfunctions are a hardware or software issue, the only way to correctly diagnose the problem is to eliminate variables and perform controlled testing, which rarely happens. Due to budget & time constraints, most often the solution is to simply blame the product and demand corrective action from the manufacturer. I'm not saying this is what happened with the OPD issue, but I've seen it before.
There are several variables to consider. Does it happpen with multiple ammo types? Are the guns correctly cleaned and lubricated? Are the malfunctions happening across the board, or only with officers that are lucky to shoot 70% even when the gun works perfectly?
While it stands to reason that a good system will withstand marginal ammo, poor maintenance and incompetent handling, they should at least prove that those variables aren't at play here.
Glock will most likely correct the problems associated with the Gen 4's, but they're not gonna ever admit to a problem. Sadly, cops and citizens are going to trust their lives to them while the issue(s) are resolved. Let's hope they don't contribute to any deaths in the interim. :(
INTrooper4255
05-25-11, 22:58
Our Department, (ISP) had the same issue with the Glock 22 when we transitioned from our Beretta 96's to the G22. We started having all kinds of problems and Glock tried the "limp wristing" story also. They ended up taking the G22's back and giving us G17's since they fit in the same holsters.:confused:
Folks, OPD has been trying to find solutions for their problematic 3rd gen G22's for several years. This is not a new issue, as documented by many other agencies. Recently another large Northern CA LE agency has reported similar problems and has done detailed diagnostic tests. After performing all the upgrades and maintenance that Glock recommended, the problems persisted--up to 40% of the agency's 3rd gen G22's were exhibiting malfunctions when shooting Win 180 gr RA40T--not exactly an exotic or unusual ammunition choice. There are longstanding problems with 3rd gen G22's, there are clearly problems with the 4th gen Glocks, and now people are beginning to find problems with recent 3rd gen 9mm Glocks that have been shipped from the factory with some of the new 4th gen parts.
Magic_Salad0892
05-26-11, 01:27
This is too bad. It's like glock caved to the collective stupidity of the gun realm and ****ed up a good thing.
Or maybe just rushed out a good product. If they would have done with the Gen4s the same thing FNH did with the SCAR, or HK did with the 416, then the end result would have been a lot better.
Folks, OPD has been trying to find solutions for their problematic 3rd gen G22's for several years. This is not a new issue, as documented by many other agencies. Recently another large Northern CA LE agency has reported similar problems and has done detailed diagnostic tests. After performing all the upgrades and maintenance that Glock recommended, the problems persisted--up to 40% of the agency's 3rd gen G22's were exhibiting malfunctions when shooting Win 180 gr RA40T--not exactly an exotic or unusual ammunition choice. There are longstanding problems with 3rd gen G22's, there are clearly problems with the 4th gen Glocks, and now people are beginning to find problems with recent 3rd gen 9mm Glocks that have been shipped from the factory with some of the new 4th gen parts.
+1 !!!!!!
Beat Trash
05-26-11, 13:25
This is a huge problem.
If you're an individual and your new gun just doesn't cut it, you can sell it at a gun show for a slight loss and move on. IF you have a couple of boxes of ammo, either keep them or use them to sweeten the deal when you sell off your gun.
OPD has (I believe) around 800 Officers. That's a lot of taxpayer money to account for 800 guns, plus spare guns and parts.
If they accepted Glock 17's they have to assume the new Glock 17's would be reliable. From what I've been hearing, I wouldn't hold my breath on that one.
Even if they took the Glock 17's, and they were reliable, you have to factor in the cost of transitioning your training and duty ammo over. That can be a huge chunk of change. My agency is at about 1,100 officers. We buy ammo once a year. Around 1.3 million rounds of 9mm, .223 and 12 ga combined. The vast majority is pistol ammo. To change calibers, the ammo cost would be huge!
If they switch to another platform, such as a M&P40, then you have to factor in new holsters and mag carriers. Most agencies stock spare parts, spare mags, and spare guns.
To go to the tax payers in tough economic times and say, "Oops, we made a bad choice with our new guns and have to drop another 5 to 6 figures to make it right..." Good luck with that.
I'm surprised they had old guns on hand to re-issue. Most agencies trade in or sell off old guns as part of the deal for the new guns. When my agency went to the M&P, the old guns were handed in when issued the new gun (unless the individual officer purchased his assigned weapon). They were stored and shipped out in batches, about once every two weeks.
Had we discovered an issue after the transition and had to turn in the new guns, there wouldn't have been anything to re-issue.
I'll be interested in seeing how willing Glock is to step up to the plate and make this right for OPD.
Code3Patriot
05-26-11, 13:56
I work for a nearby agency and have contact with OPD officers every day that I work. I can tell you first hand the department would never dream of transitioning to a different caliber. Oakland has officer involved shootings frequently and the officers by and large are confident and comfortable with their duty weapon and ammo.
I haven't had a chance to talk to any of their guys in the past few weeks (off duty on a injury) but it sounds like the Gen4s were yanked pretty quick after transition quals started and thus their Gen3 guns were still at headquarters or their range for them to reissue.
http://www.foxreno.com/news/27972227/detail.html
ETA... A quote from a guy on another forum. The article states that they were 9mm's, but the guns were Gen4 G22's.
A LARGE Govt agency recently sent a good many of their GEN 4 Glocks back as they were not reliable enough for them.
C4
I doubt that it's a software problem. The Officers had Gen3 G22's before, so they are familiar with Glocks. If they were just touching Glocks for the first time, then I can see that it might be a software issue.
Hackathorn returned his Gen 4 G19 because it wouldn't run. His second one isn't doing much better. I wonder if he is just limp wristing it. :sarcastic:
C4
If S&W pulled it's corporate head out of its rectum, they could dominate the LE market, yet it continues to appear that S&W's corporate "leadership" is inexplicably intent on destroying all the goodwill and market share that S&W's superb LE reps have tried to generate for the company. The factory needs to stop LYING to agencies, start making deliveries when PROMISED, and ensure the CORRECT product is shipped...rather than ride in like a knight on shining armor to save the day, S&W's corporate weasels are proving they can be just as insolent and insipid as Glock and SIG have been of late--maximize profit by screwing end-users.
This is all true. S&W's LE reps are the best in the business. The folks that work at the plant continue to screw the pooch on stupid things.
C4
and giving us G17's since they fit in the same holsters.:confused:
Having spent hours on the phone with the guy that was your rangemaster back then, due to we were having the same issues here with our G22s at the same time, that part ain't exactly accurate.
This is all true. S&W's LE reps are the best in the business. The folks that work at the plant continue to screw the pooch on stupid things.
C4
S&W would dominate if manufacturing could keep up... 60+ day leads and missed deadlines kill.
S&W would dominate if manufacturing could keep up... 60+ day leads and missed deadlines kill.
Totally agree and S&W is aware of this issue. Things are in the works to "address" this problem.
C4
I have several friends at OPD and had worked with them. The gen4 G22 approximately 400 pistols were withdrawn from service and their gen3 G22 were issued back. OPD from what I was told tell their officers not to attach a weapon light on.
OPD uses 40 S&W, most of the guys that I personally knew who carried either the 9mm or 45 are retired-dating myself here. I was told they did test the S&W M&P 40 but stayed with their Glocks because of cost and current gear fits same pistol so no new purchase-think budget. OPD has about 675-690 officers now-think layoff and retirement.
I got a chance to talk to an ATF instructor while I was at FLETC last week. Turns out they are also having problems with their Gen4 Glock .40s specifically related to light/laser attachments. I then asked him why ATF decided to award contracts for both the G22 and the M&P instead of just going with one or the other, and his response is that it would have been a bloody legal and political nightmare to have rejected Glock.
In my opinion Glock has made a royal F-up with the Gen4 guns. All it takes is a little doubt in the minds of the user to break years of confidence in the product. Now Glock has to practically start over to build that trust up again......just like Sig Sauer. From my end, I've used Sigs on duty for the last 11yrs, so I've had to work with problems associated with the manufacturing defects and other function problems in the last 5 or so years. I would not recommend any agency switch to using Sig pistols at this time, and based on the issues Glocks are experiencing across the nation, I would not recommend that an agency go with Glocks in any caliber. H&K and S&W M&P are the only games in town at this time for the serious user who values equipment that won't fail them.
INTrooper4255
05-29-11, 06:39
Having spent hours on the phone with the guy that was your rangemaster back then, due to we were having the same issues here with our G22s at the same time, that part ain't exactly accurate.
That's what our executive staff told us. The troops even asked about having Glock buy new leather for us to have Glock 45's and they said no. We were told that since the G17 would fit in our leather, that it was the best alternative.
Hackathorn returned his Gen 4 G19 because it wouldn't run. His second one isn't doing much better. I wonder if he is just limp wristing it. :sarcastic:
C4
I have seen gun #2 in person also, it's ugly. That gun runs like shit.
I only shoot Glocks. I won't own anything else unless it's a P30L but I'm not paying for mags for those so that's out. I have at least as much confidence in the Gen 4 off the shelf as I would an M&P because I haven't been wild about what I have seen out of them lately either.
With that said, to ignore the current crop of issues with Glock you would have to be wearing blinders. They will fix the Gen 4 guns in the next year, but that doesn't help them right now and they will continue to lose ground until they do.
I will continue shooting my Glocks, to include the Gen 4 22 I bought with a very early S/N when they came out. It runs like a champ. But I might hold off on buying any more brand new ones til 2012 or so...
I've come to the conclusion that between Sig's horrible management and QC, GLock's apparent Gen 4 mechanical issues, HK's wild prices, S&W's QC and refusal to make the M&P 9/40 accurate or have a decent trigger that now is a bad time to be into buying new handguns. It makes me sad.
The Dumb Gun Collector
05-29-11, 07:34
This whole mess is just unbelievable. I have to believe this is because Gaston seems to be too old to be wielding the stick around Glock, Gmbh these days. How the hell do you allow the reputation of your guns go down the tubes like this?
As a long time Glock Koolaid drinker, my gen4 experience really soured me. And, hearing all the horror stories still going 15 months later, I wonder if Glock is having a "New Coke" episode, or has seriously gone off course, with recovery neither certain or swift.
My current gen 3 Glocks are not leaving, but I worry about the long term availability of viable spare parts.
In an engineered products company, the true competence and vision can be held by a scary small number of people, regardless of how large the engineering group is in number. Add in how easily company culture can be negatively impacted by a change in management philosophy and excellence can be truly fragile. I have no idea what really happened with Glock on the gen4, but the functional design changes were not progress.
I have been working with the P30 and M&P platforms for the last year now and with 12K rounds through them to date and not a single bobble Glock may have a hard time getting me to buy another one of their guns.
LanceOregon
05-29-11, 08:21
This whole mess is just unbelievable. I have to believe this is because Gaston seems to be too old to be wielding the stick around Glock, Gmbh these days. How the hell do you allow the reputation of your guns go down the tubes like this?
Gaston Glock's daughter Brigitte is woking in management at the company now. She has been attending many trade shows in recent years. Here is a photo of her at a big show in Germany.
She is the lady on the right:
http://krrg.letsgoweb.net/images/Galerie/2008/IWA08/gabi-glock.jpg
Glock is currently enduring an intense tax evasion investigation by the Austrian Government. They claim that Glock has illegally avoided paying vast amounts of taxes that were due. There are allegations of secret bank accounts in the Caribbean, and one of $51 Million in US dollars simply disappearing.
The investigation has gotten some press in Europe, but not much has been written about it here in the USA. Here is a recent news story about the on-going investigation:
http://www.tt.com/csp/cms/sites/tt/%C3%9Cberblick/2010381-6/kulterer-%C3%BCbergab-liechtenstein-millionen-an-gaston-glock.csp
If the government does go forward with a prosecution, this will be extremely bad news for Glock.
.
"I've come to the conclusion that between Sig's horrible management and QC, GLock's apparent Gen 4 mechanical issues, HK's wild prices, S&W's QC and refusal to make the M&P 9/40 accurate or have a decent trigger that now is a bad time to be into buying new handguns."
An absolutely true comment about today's unfortunate state of affairs.
Some folks say that Brigitte wields an even bigger stick than old Gaston did...
First we let them vote, then we let them drive, then we let them work, then we let them run Glock.
Dudes will never learn...
:jester:
First we let them vote, then we let them drive, then we let them work, then we let them run Glock.
Dudes will never learn...
:jester:
SIG LINE!!!! - "anonymous" for PERSEC reasons lol
I'm glad my wife doesn't look at gun forums...:D
First we let them vote, then we let them drive, then we let them work, then we let them run Glock.
Dudes will never learn...
:jester:
Are you suggesting that Ron Cohen is transgender?
Amp Mangum
05-29-11, 18:39
First we let them vote, then we let them drive, then we let them work, then we let them run Glock.
Dudes will never learn...
:jester:
Ain't that the truth!
Nephrology
05-29-11, 19:42
I thought that was Belgium giving FN the finger by choosing the M&P and the Swiss by choosing Glock over Sig?
Yeah ditto.
I thought that was Belgium giving FN the finger by choosing the M&P and the Swiss by choosing Glock over Sig?
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2011/03/23/belgian-police-adopt-sw-mp-9mm/
http://www.lawofficer.com/article/industry-news/swiss-army-selects-glock-new-s
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2011/03/23/belgian-police-adopt-sw-mp-9mm/
http://www.lawofficer.com/article/industry-news/swiss-army-selects-glock-new-s
And the FNX is such a slick pistol too. You'd think it would be close enough for gubment work.
Robb Jensen
05-29-11, 20:20
With that said, to ignore the current crop of issues with Glock you would have to be wearing blinders. They will fix the Gen 4 guns in the next year, but that doesn't help them right now and they will continue to lose ground until they do.
I will continue shooting my Glocks, to include the Gen 4 22 I bought with a very early S/N when they came out. It runs like a champ. But I might hold off on buying any more brand new ones til 2012 or so...
I've come to the conclusion that between Sig's horrible management and QC, GLock's apparent Gen 4 mechanical issues, HK's wild prices, S&W's QC and refusal to make the M&P 9/40 accurate or have a decent trigger that now is a bad time to be into buying new handguns. It makes me sad.
Well them I'm not the only one with a trouble free Glock 22 Gen 4. I was beginning to think I had some weird anomaly with my Glock 22 Gen 4 that was made when the planets and starts aligned or something. Sounds like early ones work fine like mine and yours AND the ones tested at the time by ATF at Quantico. Mine continues to be 100% reliable and I continue to carry it because of this.....
madisonsfinest
05-30-11, 03:31
Well them I'm not the only one with a trouble free Glock 22 Gen 4.
I bought a Gen 4 22 when they came out as well, and I've had no issues with it. It is also my duty gun at this point replacing my Gen 3 22
Magic_Salad0892
05-30-11, 05:32
Well them I'm not the only one with a trouble free Glock 22 Gen 4. I was beginning to think I had some weird anomaly with my Glock 22 Gen 4 that was made when the planets and starts aligned or something. Sounds like early ones work fine like mine and yours AND the ones tested at the time by ATF at Quantico. Mine continues to be 100% reliable and I continue to carry it because of this.....
Robb, I'm sure you know this, so I kind of feel like an idiot posting it:
The .40 S&W guns weren't the trouble guns, from my understanding. Only the 9x19mm guns saw problems.
At least I never heard of .40 guns being problem children, your post implies you have. Seen or experienced it. Did I miss something? Did the .40s shit the bed too?
Robb, I'm sure you know this, so I kind of feel like an idiot posting it:
The .40 S&W guns weren't the trouble guns, from my understanding. Only the 9x19mm guns saw problems.
At least I never heard of .40 guns being problem children, your post implies you have. Seen or experienced it. Did I miss something? Did the .40s shit the bed too?
The OP is about OPD's problems with .40's. [see post #48 of this thread] I've seen a lot of confusion on other forums over which pistol they had new problems with but I think it has sorted out that they are G22s.
But the thrust of your post does reflect most conventional wisdom over the past year.
Robb Jensen
05-30-11, 05:42
The OP is about OPD's problems with .40's. But the thrust of your post does reflect most conventional wisdom over the past year.
Correct, this thread was about Oakland PDs Glock 22 Gen 4s with issues ....
Magic_Salad0892
05-30-11, 05:49
Correct, this thread was about Oakland PDs Glock 22 Gen 4s with issues ....
Ah, sorry JHC, and Robb. I had a herp-da-derp moment.
I was aware of a small percentage of .40 pistols that failed, but I wasn't aware of it happening on any large scale. Sorry for wasting bandwidth, thanks for setting me straight.
Updated the thread and removed the incorrect info about Austria (smart phone snafu I think).
Apologize for the error.
C4
Robb Jensen
05-30-11, 09:09
They bought thousands of guns as well. These two massive sales is why we haven't been able to get any M&P's for two months.
Will double check the story though.
C4
We still get M&Ps but that's better due to my bosses very good logistics and very good relationships with our many distributors. I renewed my S&W Armorer certification in Feb 2011 and ordered my $199 standard M&P9 from their 'on the hip' program the day after. My M&P isn't even supposed to ship until mid-July 2011 ! :eek:
I got a chance to talk to an ATF instructor while I was at FLETC last week. Turns out they are also having problems with their Gen4 Glock .40s specifically related to light/laser attachments. I then asked him why ATF decided to award contracts for both the G22 and the M&P instead of just going with one or the other, and his response is that it would have been a bloody legal and political nightmare to have rejected Glock.
In my opinion Glock has made a royal F-up with the Gen4 guns. All it takes is a little doubt in the minds of the user to break years of confidence in the product. Now Glock has to practically start over to build that trust up again......just like Sig Sauer. From my end, I've used Sigs on duty for the last 11yrs, so I've had to work with problems associated with the manufacturing defects and other function problems in the last 5 or so years. I would not recommend any agency switch to using Sig pistols at this time, and based on the issues Glocks are experiencing across the nation, I would not recommend that an agency go with Glocks in any caliber. H&K and S&W M&P are the only games in town at this time for the serious user who values equipment that won't fail them.
IIRC, the Gen4 G22 actually outperformed the M&P in the ATF trial, so that may be the reason that it was chosen.
Just like many in this thread regarding their Gen4 Glocks, my SIGs have been perfect, new or old, and I would recommend them to anyone. Manufactures have bad run of parts every now and then, and that can affect a lot of guns on the market or guns going to agencies. If there's an issue, then usually the major manufactures are good about making it right, and I am sure Glock will address OPD's problems.
You say that H&K and M&P's are the only game in town for the "serious user." Have you read about the problems that S&W has been having with the M&P's? They are by no means at the top of the herd in reliability and durability. I have personally seen some of the problems with dept. issued guns, and personally would choose to carry a Glock over an M&P at this time. While the majority of them work fine, the issues that I have seen and read about here makes me go "hmmm."
I agree that H&K's are great weapons, but they are NOT a "player" in the LE market and probably won't be for the forseable future. They are too expensive and so are mags/parts. H&K's LE armorer support is also non-existent at this time. There's one state agency still using them, and that's Maine. Glock, SIG and S&W make up the rest. Honestly, the only new LE contract that I can see H&K picking up is the USSS when they replace their aging .357 SIG P229's.
I have not read this entire thread but I thought I would let you all know that the Indiana State Police recently switched back to the G17 after a short run with the Gen 4 G22. I dont know if their new 17s are Gen 4 or Gen3. Glock reps told them that they were "limp wristing" the new 22s.
IIRC, the Gen4 G22 actually outperformed the M&P in the ATF trial, so that may be the reason that it was chosen.
This is not what I have been told. In fact, when S&W found out that they did not win, they were shocked (as they were almost certain that they had won). So the story that KhanRad posted carries a lot of weight in my book.
C4
Robb Jensen
05-30-11, 20:35
IIRC, the Gen4 G22 actually outperformed the M&P in the ATF trial, so that may be the reason that it was chosen.
From what I've seen the Glock had less stoppages than S&W and SIG....ammo was the ATFs 180gr Speer Gold Dot.
This is not what I have been told. In fact, when S&W found out that they did not win, they were shocked (as they were almost certain that they had won). So the story that KhanRad posted carries a lot of weight in my book.
C4
I don't know the exact details, but I believe that the G22 had less stoppages. KhanRad may be right, dunno....
I don't know the exact details, but I believe that the G22 had less stoppages. KhanRad may be right, dunno....
I have heard this as well, but we are talking about a very small amount. They are now mounting weapon lights to a larger QTY of guns and getting stoppages (just like with the GEN 3 G22's).
The problem with not testing weapon lights on guns (or testing at least 10-30 of them with weapon lights on them) is that this problem does not show itself with every weapon or every other weapon.
C4
Nephrology
05-30-11, 20:55
Why anyone gets Glocks in anything but 9mm is beyond me anyway. Shooting .40 in them is unpleasant. 10mm, however, gets a pass :cool:
Robb Jensen
05-30-11, 21:01
Why anyone gets Glocks in anything but 9mm is beyond me anyway. Shooting .40 in them is unpleasant. 10mm, however, gets a pass :cool:
Big difference there is that the large frame Glocks (20 & 29) were designed from the ground up to be 10mm. Shooting .45 through them (21 & 30) is a pussycat. The small frame Glock 17, 19 and 26 were first designed as 9mms with .40s shoehorned into it.
Nephrology
05-30-11, 21:14
Big difference there is that the large frame Glocks (20 & 29) were designed from the ground up to be 10mm. Shooting .45 through them (21 & 30) is a pussycat. The small frame Glock 17, 19 and 26 were first designed as 9mms with .40s shoehorned into it.
Yeah I really enjoyed my Glock 21 back when I had it - had to let it go, though; it was hard to say no to the logic of consolidating on the 9mm Glock variants.
I have heard this as well, but we are talking about a very small amount. They are now mounting weapon lights to a larger QTY of guns and getting stoppages (just like with the GEN 3 G22's).
The problem with not testing weapon lights on guns (or testing at least 10-30 of them with weapon lights on them) is that this problem does not show itself with every weapon or every other weapon.
C4
Oh, I believe it, as I have seen the problem with the Gen3 G22's.
Didn't the ATF award Glock the majority (like 75%) of the contract, with the M&P taking up the rest? It was something weird like that.
Reading all of this reinforces my preference for and reliance upon my non-FG/R ("Generation 2" for the gen-o-philes) Glocks.
I buy every late non-FG/R transitional model I can find, esp the G19s.
Seems like the kind of public beta testing used in the software industry for a long time (where they release known deeply flawed products and then make their customers find them) is now entering the firearm industry.
When I go to get another Glock I guess I will have to be really picky and look for a pre "generation 4 part in gen 3" nonsense gen 3 using serial number ranges and known dates of purchase from GlockTalk. That is highly annoying, but what is the other option? By the time they get this stuff sorted out there will be 2 years of guns that could potentially crap the bed right out of the box and my time is too valuable to spend trouble shooting a Glock.
Magic_Salad0892
05-31-11, 15:02
Just buy late production Glock Gen4 guns. If they have the counterbored slide, and proper spring then they should be reliable.
The main problem guns are the early Gen4 guns, and the late Gen3 guns.
IMHO. Yeah, Glock screwed up, but thankfully they've (mostly if not completely) fixed the problems, and are getting the better guns out there again. I'd rather see them fix the problem too late, than never.
Or Gen2 guns just for the cool factor. Thankfully Glocks aren't considered collectors pieces, and they're cheaper than deodorant.
Just buy late production Glock Gen4 guns. If they have the counterbored slide, and proper spring then they should be reliable.
The main problem guns are the early Gen4 guns, and the late Gen3 guns.
IMHO. Yeah, Glock screwed up, but thankfully they've (mostly if not completely) fixed the problems, and are getting the better guns out there again. I'd rather see them fix the problem too late, than never.
Or Gen2 guns just for the cool factor. Thankfully Glocks aren't considered collectors pieces, and they're cheaper than deodorant.
I've seen zero evidence from any reputable sources that the latest revisions to the Gen4's or the most recent production Gen4's have had all of the bugs worked out of them. Most of the Gen4 issues I have seen and read of are not solely to blame on the recoil spring assemblies. There are extractor issues that have cropped up as well.
Just buy late production Glock Gen4 guns. If they have the counterbored slide, and proper spring then they should be reliable.
The main problem guns are the early Gen4 guns, and the late Gen3 guns.
IMHO. Yeah, Glock screwed up, but thankfully they've (mostly if not completely) fixed the problems, and are getting the better guns out there again. I'd rather see them fix the problem too late, than never.
Or Gen2 guns just for the cool factor. Thankfully Glocks aren't considered collectors pieces, and they're cheaper than deodorant.
When you talk about the early Gen4 guns and late Gen 3, what is the manufacturing dates? Or serial # range if anyone knows? I'm just asking because I bought a Glock 19 Gen 3 in April with the shell casings being fired on March 10. Serial # is RKL range.
I've put just alittle over 300 rounds through it and it has not failed once. Hopefully that is a good sign.
I've seen zero evidence from any reputable sources that the latest revisions to the Gen4's or the most recent production Gen4's have had all of the bugs worked out of them. Most of the Gen4 issues I have seen and read of are not solely to blame on the recoil spring assemblies. There are extractor issues that have cropped up as well.
Agree. Hackathorn's GEN 4 G19 is a prime example of this.
C4
Littlelebowski
06-01-11, 09:15
Just buy late production Glock Gen4 guns. If they have the counterbored slide, and proper spring then they should be reliable.
No. Do not.
Robb Jensen
06-01-11, 10:06
I've seen zero evidence from any reputable sources that the latest revisions to the Gen4's or the most recent production Gen4's have had all of the bugs worked out of them. Most of the Gen4 issues I have seen and read of are not solely to blame on the recoil spring assemblies. There are extractor issues that have cropped up as well.
I've seen some 9mm Glocks with extractor issues as of late.
This makes me wonder if Glock started making extractors in house....
Extractors, springs and locking blocks are made for Glock by vendors.
I've seen some 9mm Glocks with extractor issues as of late.
This makes me wonder if Glock started making extractors in house....
Extractors, springs and locking blocks are made for Glock by vendors.
Good question. In an order to reduce cost, I wonder if they are not moving these items in house.
C4
Good question. In an order to reduce cost, I wonder if they are not moving these items in house.
I thought big companies farmed out small parts to vendors in order to reduce costs, not the other way around.
Regarding the extractor, I would like to see a detailed drawing of the changes that have taken place in the extractor just recently. I saw some pics posted here but I could not see the supposed changes with the naked eye.
Anyways, it is kinda annoying the situation with Glock, as I am going to have the disposable funds to pick up another G19 as a backup this year. Will be forced to do a treasure hunt for a proper serial number.
What are the serial numbers? I'm buying a back up very soon too.
What are the serial numbers? I'm buying a back up very soon too.
There is a big thread on Glock Talk showing serial numbers and when they bought them. That is what I am going to use when I look for another "Gen 3" G19.
There is a big thread on Glock Talk showing serial numbers and when they bought them. That is what I am going to use when I look for another "Gen 3" G19.
Can you post a link? I'm not seeing it.
I thought big companies farmed out small parts to vendors in order to reduce costs, not the other way around.
Regarding the extractor, I would like to see a detailed drawing of the changes that have taken place in the extractor just recently. I saw some pics posted here but I could not see the supposed changes with the naked eye.
Anyways, it is kinda annoying the situation with Glock, as I am going to have the disposable funds to pick up another G19 as a backup this year. Will be forced to do a treasure hunt for a proper serial number.
Yes, in some instances. In other instances, it isn't any cheaper (especially if you have money invested in machines that are sitting around OR if you need to control QC better).
For instance, S&W is doing more and more things in house (especially on the AR side).
C4
Maybe they hired Cohen too.
On the gen 4 status report thread, it seems there is not a whole lot of issues anymore, granted it was last updated two months ago.
Is this that wide spread of an issue, or is it being inflated by the internet?
I hope Larry chimes in.
It seems guns crawl so slowly or erratically through the supply chain to the final consumer it's pretty hard to predict when your gun was "made" unless you know the serial # sequences. Todd Green's new gun a few months ago had no counterbored slide box - which we thought was remedied well back in 2010.
I really think shooting for serial numbers to look for to buy is still a game of chance. Our four Gen 4 9mm's are all P series and they've run 14.5K rounds between the four of them without a stoppage. They were early versions of 17 and 19 from 2010. Go figure.
brushy bill
06-01-11, 18:56
Can someone post what serial numbers started the Gen 4 extractor in Gen 3 guns for G17 / G27? I am getting no satisfaction from
Glock Talk serial number post.
Littlelebowski
06-01-11, 19:01
I've seen some 9mm Glocks with extractor issues as of late.
This makes me wonder if Glock started making extractors in house....
Extractors, springs and locking blocks are made for Glock by vendors.
They could have just pulled a SIG and outsourced the parts to cheaper vendors.. The extractor on my Gen4 19 shows wear where my Gen3 has none. My Gen4 19 took a while to start malfunctioning.
Littlelebowski
06-01-11, 19:02
Can someone post what serial numbers started the Gen 4 extractor in Gen 3 guns for G17 / G27? I am getting no satisfaction from
Glock Talk serial number post.
I know what you're asking but just to clarify, there is no Gen4 extractor. Just different batches of extractors.
F-Trooper05
06-01-11, 19:09
Is it safe to assume that if a Gen 3 Glock doesn't have the shitty new finish on the slide it's probably good to go?
brushy bill
06-01-11, 19:46
I know what you're asking but just to clarify, there is no Gen4 extractor. Just different batches of extractors.
Thanks. That helps a bunch because I couldn't understand why there was suddenly problems when the LCI had been out for quite a few years. This makes sense. No real change, just some bad batches.
Magic_Salad0892
06-01-11, 22:42
Maybe they hired Cohen too.
Don't even joke about that.
They could have just pulled a SIG and outsourced the parts to cheaper vendors.. The extractor on my Gen4 19 shows wear where my Gen3 has none. My Gen4 19 took a while to start malfunctioning.
Interesting. I wonder if there is a hardening issue. As time passes and more rounds are fire, the geometry of the extractor's angle and "sharpness" changes.
C4
It's not just the new ones , some older shiney finished guns with N prefix have new style MIM extractor.
To me EVERY change Glock has made in last couple of years is NOT for the better
Interesting. I wonder if there is a hardening issue. As time passes and more rounds are fire, the geometry of the extractor's angle and "sharpness" changes.
C4
Apex could sell a ****ton of perfect to spec milled steel Glock extractors about now.
Apex could sell a ****ton of perfect to spec milled steel Glock extractors about now.
Yep.
C4
While I fully respect Apex and think that, given the circumstances, it would be great if they did that I have to say. There's really something wrong with the picture when you have to buy an aftermarket part to home install in an item of any description to get it to work acceptably out of the box.
Littlelebowski
06-02-11, 11:23
Interesting. I wonder if there is a hardening issue. As time passes and more rounds are fire, the geometry of the extractor's angle and "sharpness" changes.
C4
It's on the top edge, going from front to rear. I don't see any issues on the claw. Called Glock and they sent a #4 marked spring. Based on the experiences of javentre, that probably won't fix it. So I've installed this (http://www.whitesounddefense.com/products/H.R.E.D.-9mm.html) and will try said setup at the upcoming Vickers Advanced Handgun and Carbine class this month. Larry told me to contact Glock and I have but I honestly don't think Glock is going to do anything more than a token effort and tell me "don't use range ammo" which is pure, unmitigated bullshit in my book.
Both mine and javentre's Gen4 G19s started malfunctioning around 4k rds.
While I fully respect Apex and think that, given the circumstances, it would be great if they did that I have to say. There's really something wrong with the picture when you have to buy an aftermarket part to home install in an item of any description to get it to work acceptably out of the box.
It really depends one what the definition of "acceptable reliability" is. Case in point, The M&P in 9mm has extraction issues with Winchester ammo (especially the value packs). If you shoot 1,000rds of this ammo, you will most likely see 3-5 failures to extract. Is this acceptable?
I don't shoot GEN 4 Glock's and so I don't know what the averages are for failure to extract. If it is once every 50rds or 100rds then I would say that is unacceptable.
C4
Littlelebowski
06-02-11, 11:24
I don't shoot GEN 4 Glock's and so I don't know what the averages are for failure to extract. If it is once every 50rds or 100rds then I would say that is unacceptable.
Stovepipes every 100 or even less rounds as of late for me. I've only ran about 200 rds through it using the new #4 marked spring with no malfunctions yet.
Stovepipes every 100 or even less rounds as of late for me. I've only ran about 200 rds through it using the new #4 marked spring with no malfunctions yet.
Ya, that's too much with the older spring.
Since the gun has over 4K on it, the spring is broke in so that cannot be the issue for the stove pipes IMHO. It most likely has to do with either the position of the guide rod in the gun or the extractor.
C4
Littlelebowski
06-02-11, 11:33
I asked Glock for a new extractor and they said no. This was after the lecture on range ammo. I bit my tongue and said not a word about my Gen3 G19 that is flawless with all ammo. I polished the parts of the extractor that were wearing with a buffer wheel and metal polish. It no longer catches. I am looking forward to seeing if the H.R.E.D helps or not.
Nephrology
06-02-11, 11:36
Stovepipes every 100 or even less rounds as of late for me. I've only ran about 200 rds through it using the new #4 marked spring with no malfunctions yet.
I am confused... you replaced the recoil spring or the extractor...?
Littlelebowski
06-02-11, 11:38
I am confused... you replaced the recoil spring or the extractor...?
That should have read "#4 marked spring" above. Sorry about that.
My issues were not impacted by changing extractors, extractor springs, or increased extractor tension. I also tried to use a pre-LCI plastic bearing, which is longer than the LCI model, and it made no difference.
It was also not impacted by recoil springs, I ran various ISMI single rate springs as well as the 03 and 04 springs.
I even completely resprung the gun.
If my memory is correct, it was flawless for the first 4400 rounds. After that, it wouldn't run.
What is all this talk about MIM parts on the Glock. Just picked up a Gen 3 19 a couple of months ago.
Same thing happened with MIM gas key on the LMT BCG that I picked up a year or so ago when everyone was ranting on those. Must be my luck!
Fortunately both have not let me down!
It really depends one what the definition of "acceptable reliability" is. Case in point, The M&P in 9mm has extraction issues with Winchester ammo (especially the value packs). If you shoot 1,000rds of this ammo, you will most likely see 3-5 failures to extract. Is this acceptable?
I don't shoot GEN 4 Glock's and so I don't know what the averages are for failure to extract. If it is once every 50rds or 100rds then I would say that is unacceptable.
C4
You're curious about the rate of failure is for guns that have any. Somehow there are some good components in the mix too as I have seen a failure rate of zero per 14.5K rounds across four guns. And the handful of shooters I know with them got good ones also.
And FWIW - all bought from the same retail location (high volume place) and all in a compressed time period roughly spring 2010.
I asked Glock for a new extractor and they said no. This was after the lecture on range ammo. I bit my tongue and said not a word about my Gen3 G19 that is flawless with all ammo. I polished the parts of the extractor that were wearing with a buffer wheel and metal polish. It no longer catches. I am looking forward to seeing if the H.R.E.D helps or not.
Who gave you a lecture? A CS rep??
C4
"Apex could sell a ****ton of perfect to spec milled steel Glock extractors about now."
Hopefully some well respected vendor will do so in the near future...
Apex could sell a ****ton of perfect to spec milled steel Glock extractors about now.
I didn't realize that there was an extraction problem with the Glocks...
If it is a serious problem that a lot of people are experiencing, I'm sure we could look into fabricating some shock resistant steel extractors...
-Randy
Nephrology
06-02-11, 18:43
I didn't realize that there was an extraction problem with the Glocks...
If it is a serious problem that a lot of people are experiencing, I'm sure we could look into fabricating some shock resistant steel extractors...
-Randy
I bet if you got your hands on a couple of problematic gen 4 guns and tracked down some consistency to the malfunctions and provided an aftermarket solution or two you would make quite a few shooters very happy.
I didn't realize that there was an extraction problem with the Glocks...
If it is a serious problem that a lot of people are experiencing, I'm sure we could look into fabricating some shock resistant steel extractors...
-Randy
LOL - There is some problem but I swear I'm not sure how widespread. But I'll bet the orders would be stout regardless. ;)
Hell, all 10 of our Glocks are running like scalded cats but based on all the reports of small parts chaos, I'd order some to stash for eventual replacement.
Randy,
The newer MIM extractors for the Glocks suck, many times they do not fit right and bind up.
The spring that powers the extractor is also, IMHO, underpowered for the job and can be prone to allowing extractor bounce.
The guys at the Rogers' school had to shorten the ejector .040 and add a 10 degree "up" cut to the face in order to get their gen 4 G17 school loaner guns running.
If you guys made parts that corrected these issues I'd certainly pay for them.
Apex could sell a ****ton of perfect to spec milled steel Glock extractors about now.
Randy,
The newer MIM extractors for the Glocks suck, many times they do not fit right and bind up.
The spring that powers the extractor is also, IMHO, underpowered for the job and can be prone to allowing extractor bounce.
The guys at the Rogers' school had to shorten the ejector .040 and add a 10 degree "up" cut to the face in order to get their gen 4 G17 school loaner guns running.
If you guys made parts that corrected these issues I'd certainly pay for them.
We are investigating the problem threads now...
-Randy
Maybe Apex needs to just design and market an entire pistol.
Now THAT's my real contribution to this thread.
Maybe Apex needs to just design and market an entire pistol.
Now THAT's my real contribution to this thread.
Oh you aren't far off with their M&P plans.
Randy,
The newer MIM extractors for the Glocks suck, many times they do not fit right and bind up.
The spring that powers the extractor is also, IMHO, underpowered for the job and can be prone to allowing extractor bounce.
The guys at the Rogers' school had to shorten the ejector .040 and add a 10 degree "up" cut to the face in order to get their gen 4 G17 school loaner guns running.
If you guys made parts that corrected these issues I'd certainly pay for them.
As yes.......the infamous MIM parts are once again at front and center in quality control issues......only this time with Glock. Not all MIM parts have had problems. I have a couple of Sigs that were manufactuered in 2000 and 2001 and they are higher quality MIM that were built under pre Cohen management. There are definately cosmetic differences in quality between the Cohen MIM and the pre Cohen MIM parts.
We are investigating the problem threads now...
-Randy
Check out Todd Green's issues over at Pistol Training .com, we have quite a discussion going ref gen 4 G17 and G19 issues.
FWIW, some gen 3 guns, such as my newer G19, are also having problems.
This entire thread is astounding.
Nephrology
06-03-11, 01:22
Check out Todd Green's issues over at Pistol Training .com, we have quite a discussion going ref gen 4 G17 and G19 issues.
FWIW, some gen 3 guns, such as my newer G19, are also having problems.
You referring to your M-series? I will take a more detailed account of my M series if you like - I have had a few failures like I have said but not enough to raise an eyebrow - I blamed them on shooter/ammo. I will document any future failures - I have a case to blow through, may as well put some of it through the 19.
Magic_Salad0892
06-03-11, 02:51
If Randy put together a Glock extractor I'd buy it.
Shit fellas...this thread makes me want to carry my snub nose rather than my Glock :mad:
I have read this entire thread 2 times and I cant seem to extroplate enough data to figure out 2 things regarding extraction/ejection issues:
1. Do we have a prefix that where we think things started to go bad on Gen 3's
2. I just bought a Gen4 Glock 26 and it has run great for about 1000 rounds. Is anyone seeing any issues with this platform regarding bad MIM parts?
I find it damn freaky that pistols are running great for thousands of rounds then just go tits up...
-Drew
If Randy put together a Glock extractor I'd buy it.
Agreed! Hell I would have to by 6 of them....
LOL - There is some problem but I swear I'm not sure how widespread. But I'll bet the orders would be stout regardless. ;)
Hell, all 10 of our Glocks are running like scalded cats but based on all the reports of small parts chaos, I'd order some to stash for eventual replacement.
I agree! I know I would order some parts just to have on hand. If a problem arises and or a part breaks, then you have it.
Shit fellas...this thread makes me want to carry my snub nose rather than my Glock :mad:
I have read this entire thread 2 times and I cant seem to extroplate enough data to figure out 2 things regarding extraction/ejection issues:
1. Do we have a prefix that where we think things started to go bad on Gen 3's
2. I just bought a Gen4 Glock 26 and it has run great for about 1000 rounds. Is anyone seeing any issues with this platform regarding bad MIM parts?
I find it damn freaky that pistols are running great for thousands of rounds then just go tits up...
-Drew
What are you worried about? Are your guns running well? Keep running them. Same rules as have been in effect since Samuel Colt days.
Glock has some problems to iron out. Somehow a huge number of them are running well. How that can be I just can't figure out. How I could have four Gen 4's and three Gen 3's bought new in the last 12 months that run fine just defies the laws of internet physics eh? ;)
But if you're good running Glocks are not a better choice for you than your snubbie then there you go.
MadcapMagician
06-03-11, 08:51
Does anyone have an update on the Oakland issues? I've heard Glock was working on it but haven't heard results.
What are you worried about? Are your guns running well? Keep running them. Same rules as have been in effect since Samuel Colt days.
Glock has some problems to iron out. Somehow a huge number of them are running well. How that can be I just can't figure out. How I could have four Gen 4's and three Gen 3's bought new in the last 12 months that run fine just defies the laws of internet physics eh? ;)
But if you're good running Glocks are not a better choice for you than your snubbie then there you go.
No JHC, you are correct. I just got caught up in all the shit happening in this thread. I have NEVER had an issue with any of my Glocks including my new Gen4 Glock 26. Thanks for the virtual "slap", im better now!!!
-Drew
Shit fellas...this thread makes me want to carry my snub nose rather than my Glock :mad:
I have read this entire thread 2 times and I cant seem to extroplate enough data to figure out 2 things regarding extraction/ejection issues:
1. Do we have a prefix that where we think things started to go bad on Gen 3's
2. I just bought a Gen4 Glock 26 and it has run great for about 1000 rounds. Is anyone seeing any issues with this platform regarding bad MIM parts?
I find it damn freaky that pistols are running great for thousands of rounds then just go tits up...
-Drew
If your Glock's run don't mess with anything. Do pay attention to the round count though. We are hearing and seeing people that did not have a problem until they got into the 4K + range. There could either be an extractor wear issue OR an extractor spring issue (losing power).
C4
thanks Grant-
I keep freakishly detailed logs of all my pistols, round count, type, any PM or issues had ect....
I will keep an eye on it and address as necessary if necessary.
-Drew
Littlelebowski
06-03-11, 10:17
. There could either be an extractor wear issue OR an extractor spring issue (losing power).
I believe javentre replaced all of the above and still had issues.
He ever narrow his issues down to date?
Is he having issues with Gen 3's or 4's and what frame size?
Code3Patriot
06-03-11, 12:01
He ever narrow his issues down to date?
Is he having issues with Gen 3's or 4's and what frame size?
I believe it was a Gen4 G19. There is/was a lengthy discussion about it on the pistol training forum.
I believe javentre replaced all of the above and still had issues.I sure did. I even played with the shortened and tweaked ejectors.
I sent it back to Glock.
I believe it was a Gen4 G19. There is/was a lengthy discussion about it on the pistol training forum.Yep. http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?571-Gen4-19-The-problems-have-started-....
The summary of what I did is here:
http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?571-Gen4-19-The-problems-have-started-....&p=12110&viewfull=1#post12110
http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/12182866/glock-gen-4-design-meeting
I have never been so amused yet saddened at the same time...
I didn't realize the problem was that bad! I called one of my 1911 buddies up from school and he told me that the guys on glocktalk were even saying to get a M&P and not a glock... Thats terrible...:sad:
I surprised that the FNX is not getting a better following, but personally I am only a HK/1911 guy myself. Clearly both are not in the glock price range though... so for that price, I would get FN.
http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/12182866/glock-gen-4-design-meeting
Man that was funny!
"I would killy myself right now, but I am afraid that the GEN 4 Glock wouldn't get the job done." :D
C4
I didn't realize the problem was that bad! I called one of my 1911 buddies up from school and he told me that the guys on glocktalk were even saying to get a M&P and not a glock... Thats terrible...:sad:
I surprised that the FNX is not getting a better following, but personally I am only a HK/1911 guy myself. Clearly both are not in the glock price range though... so for that price, I would get FN.
It isn't. THAT bad I mean. GT still has lots more Glock fans than not and more with guns that run than don't. But there is a disturbance in the force. I liked the FNX I just briefly handled. I'd like to try one out someday. It would be a tall order to expect to be able to run it as well as I can run a Glock 9mm though. And lucky me, all mine run like the legend.
Beat Trash
06-06-11, 11:53
I'm extremely disappointed that I couldn't get the link from xtranormal to play for me. Could have used a laugh.
It's bad enough that major departments such as Oakland have to recall their Glocks, but when the experts on Glock Talk are losing the faith and mentioning the very idea of switching the the "Dark Side" (AKA M&P)? (Hopefully this is not a precursor to the 2012 apocalypse.)
My newest Glock 9mm was bought to celebrate the end of the AWB in 2005 (G17). My Glock 19's and G26 are old enough that they only have one pin for the locking block vs. two. Given ammo made to spec and just a tad bit of lube, they will run. I'd bet my life on it (and have done so).
I will continue to carry my Glock 9mm's, and have no intention of ever parting with them. They were made during a time when if one absolutely had to pick a gun that would be most likely to run reliably right out of the box, a 9mm Glock was on a very short list.
Sadly, I feel those days of Glock's assumed reliability are gone, possibly for good.
Nephrology
06-06-11, 12:15
Just lent out my Jun 09 G17 to some buddies shooting a GSSF match here in Portland (have other obligations or else it would've been me shooting it...)
6 failures with one shooter, 0 with another. Each put roughly 100 rounds through it apiece with 115gr UMC ball.
The shooter with all the failures is a slighter-built female who is used to a G19. I am going to chalk it up to limp wristing. the 115grs probably don't help. It's at ~600 rounds without cleaning now, going to push it through to 2000.
http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/12182866/glock-gen-4-design-meeting
Who found the Gen 4 mag release worse to use than Gen 3? ;)
The mag release is my single favorite added feature, close second being the grip traction.
None of the other features seem like a good thing at this point...
Who found the Gen 4 mag release worse to use than Gen 3? ;)
Not worse, but not much better. The Vicker's, works much better for me than the gen 4.
I find the gen4 mag release a very positive change for me. I no longer have to break my strong hand grip to dump a mag.
Ymmv...
Doc Safari
06-06-11, 17:19
A question about the late Gen 3 failures : those guns that are failing around the 4k mark, were they actually made/sold late in 2010, or did they just start failing around that time?
With 4k rounds through them it seems more likely they were actually made/sold a lot earlier than that. 4k seems like a lot of ammo for the gun to have been sold to the customer in late 2010 and started failing shortly thereafter.
Or did I miss something?
Not worse, but not much better. The Vicker's, works much better for me than the gen 4.
Yes I have seen that posted. I don't get it. I've got guns with the Vickers part and its a big improvement over Gen 3 stock but I think the Gen 4 is a big improvement over the Gen 3 Vickers part. I recall LAV reporting that he didn't think the Gen 4 mag release was so good either and it was too sharp but I haven't figured out how so yet. Maybe if I did more than 100 speed reloads in a single session I'd detect something different.
The mag release is my single favorite added feature, close second being the grip traction.
...
Definitely +1 on both accounts. Last year I thought the Gen 4 recoiled a lot flatter than my Gen 3's and attributed it to the RSA but since getting a RTF2 G17 this winter I'm starting to think maybe it's the super traction grip surfaces that is the secret sauce as the two handle almost identically.
I have to install a Vickers mag release and stipple the frame of my Gen 3 Glocks to bring them up to par with the Gen 4 guns.
Magic_Salad0892
06-07-11, 01:22
I'm thinking of running a .40 RSA in my Gen4 G19 with the extractor it has now (2150 flawless rounds it says) and see if it runs well.
A question about the late Gen 3 failures : those guns that are failing around the 4k mark, were they actually made/sold late in 2010, or did they just start failing around that time?
With 4k rounds through them it seems more likely they were actually made/sold a lot earlier than that. 4k seems like a lot of ammo for the gun to have been sold to the customer in late 2010 and started failing shortly thereafter.
Or did I miss something?
These are guys that shoot, more than the average joe.
jdavis6576
06-07-11, 05:44
I've heard rumors that there will be a Vickers Gen4 magazine release that will be slightly longer and the front edge will be rounded. No ETA.
I personally didn't care for the Gen4 release because although it has a larger surface area it still isn't long enough. The Vickers, if it comes to market, will be a welcome addition.
I'm thinking of running a .40 RSA in my Gen4 G19 with the extractor it has now (2150 flawless rounds it says) and see if it runs well.
Same here since that's what came with this G4 G19. 3500 rds good so far. I plan the same for the G4 G17 that has hit 7500 with original spring (.40 weight). That one is due but I'm thinking of seeing how far it'll go.
A question about the late Gen 3 failures : those guns that are failing around the 4k mark, were they actually made/sold late in 2010, or did they just start failing around that time?
With 4k rounds through them it seems more likely they were actually made/sold a lot earlier than that. 4k seems like a lot of ammo for the gun to have been sold to the customer in late 2010 and started failing shortly thereafter.
Or did I miss something?
Many of the members on here shoot a lot. So 4K through a gun purchased in late 2010 is normal (FYI).
C4
With my G19 I was averaging around 120-150 rounds per weekend, give or take.
Littlelebowski
06-07-11, 09:09
Many of the members on here shoot a lot. So 4K through a gun purchased in late 2010 is normal (FYI).
C4
Precisely. We are shooters primarily, not just owners who post pretty pics and maybe touch off a box or two of ammo a month. My Gen4 G19 will be taken to its third training class this on the 17th and second class with Larry Vickers.
Doc Safari
06-07-11, 09:12
Just in case anyone is logging serial number ranges, I've got two 3rd Gen Glock 17's.
One has a 'fired case' date of Feb 2009. Serial number prefix is MUF.
It has the old, true third generation extractor.
The other one has a 'fired case' date of Sept. 2009. Serial number prefix is NSL.
It has the Gen 4 style extractor.
Mine starts with PUS and was made 7/13/10
Littlelebowski
06-07-11, 10:20
It has the Gen 4 style extractor.
As far as I know, extractors did not change with generations. Do you mean it has an LCI (Loaded Chamber Indicator)?
Doc Safari
06-07-11, 10:42
As far as I know, extractors did not change with generations. Do you mean it has an LCI (Loaded Chamber Indicator)?
The earlier one, serial number prefix MUF, has an extractor with the loaded chamber indicator, but the top of the extractor is parallel to the slide opening with no clearance.
What I call the Gen 4 style extractor, on the gun with serial number prefix NSL, is an extractor with a noticeable "dip" or cutout at the top of the extractor, leaving an odd looking u-shaped depression between the extractor and frame (in addition to the loaded chamber indicator). The extractor just looks bent to me also. To be blunt, it looks like some bubba filed on the top of the extractor with a round file. (Since I've seen several examples I know they are all that way.)
In my readings I'm finding out that some late Gen 3 guns were built with this extractor. If you put the two guns side-by-side, the difference is obvious: the Gen 4 style extractor has a u-shaped depression in the top middle of the extractor leaving a small clearance between it and the frame.
Top gun: Gen 4
Bottom gun: Gen 3
Anyone ever gotten a reason from Glock on the purpose of the new "dip" in the current extractor design? Cant figure out why they changed something that was obviously NOT broken...
-Drew
Nope, I just picked up a Glock 17 RTF2 Gen 3 with NPC serial number. I was the sample gun at the store. It has a Gen 4 extractor. Put 200 rounds of Speer 124+P through it at the range on the way home with no problems.
Whenever I hear that a police department (usually a large one) is having problems with a particular weapon, this is also my first suspicion. Having said that, large departments also simply represent a larger sample size and are more likely to have issues, simply as a function of the numbers.
As I work for a large department and know first hand the problems with dealing with 'gun' people and 'non gun' people therefore you make a valid point. We are in the process of issuing some type of gun mounted flashlight to the troops. The SWAT guys have them and some other units are trying them out. The pistol was not designed to have a 'counterweight' on it (that's how that flashlight acts to recoil) so there are going to be problems to be worked out. My .02
Looked at an early 2010 Gen G19. Round count is around 2500rds on it and the extractor looks like a like another Glock (older 2008) that has 6500 on it.
The number on the extractor is #2.
C4
Just wondering if there were any updates to this?
brushy bill
06-15-11, 21:21
Just wondering if there were any updates to this?
Late 09 blue label 17 and 26, both with "Gen 4" dip type extractors. #4 on extractors.
Thanks for the update brushy bill! Interesting. I would have thought they would have just gotten a different batch of Gen 3 22's instead of stepping down to the 17's and 26's. How do LE/agencies feel about issuing 9mm over 40sw? Or is it not much of an issue with today's modern/technologically advanced ammunition? Or is it more so a cost/budget issue?
madisonsfinest
06-15-11, 23:38
My agency allows you to carry Glock in 9mm, .40, or .45
Currently issue the .40 to new hires though
ElyasWolff
06-15-11, 23:58
I carry a Gen4 G17 on duty and have somewhere north of 3k rounds. I bought it in early 2010 and am now starting to have problems.
I tried the Lone wolf spring, and it auctually made it worse.
After all the problems I was having at my last IDPA match I have decided to ditch the Glock and go to the M&P (I was thinking about switching before I started to have problems but this was the kick I needed)
I only wish Smith had LE pricing like Glock does...
There is LEO/MIL pricing for M&Ps....
ElyasWolff
06-16-11, 00:16
There is LEO/MIL pricing for M&Ps....
:mad: I bought it a few days ago and I was told there was none for personal purchase (by the gun store)
askani79705
06-16-11, 00:57
GlockTalk is starting to look like a Keltec forum.
ElyasWolff--I've seen quite reasonable pricing for individual LEO purchase of M&P's at LE distributors on the west coast.
There is LEO/MIL pricing for M&Ps....
They certainly do. Around here they go for around $525 w/night sights from our local LE S&W dealer last I checked. I think they may have actually dropped down a bit from that due to competitive pricing with Glock being a factor. BudsPoliceSupply.com is another option for an LE (online) dealer.
There are LE distributors selling M&P's to LEO's for the same price as Glocks LE program, now.
I carry a Gen4 G17 on duty and have somewhere north of 3k rounds. I bought it in early 2010 and am now starting to have problems.
I tried the Lone wolf spring, and it auctually made it worse.
After all the problems I was having at my last IDPA match I have decided to ditch the Glock and go to the M&P (I was thinking about switching before I started to have problems but this was the kick I needed)
I only wish Smith had LE pricing like Glock does...
They do and we are the forums LE dealer for S&W. ;)
We also offer installation of Apex Tactical parts, sights and stock the Raven Concealment holster for the M&P.
C4
:mad: I bought it a few days ago and I was told there was none for personal purchase (by the gun store)
You were lied to.
Aren't gun shops great! :jester:
C4
They certainly do. Around here they go for around $525 w/night sights from our local LE S&W dealer last I checked. I think they may have actually dropped down a bit from that due to competitive pricing with Glock being a factor. BudsPoliceSupply.com is another option for an LE (online) dealer.
That price seems high to me.
C4
Beat Trash
06-16-11, 12:21
:mad: I bought it a few days ago and I was told there was none for personal purchase (by the gun store)
You were given bad information. There are several LE dealers on the internet. G&R Tactical is an LE dealer, and they also have all the such ad Apex parts and RCS holsters to go along with the gun, should you want the extras . S&W's individual purchase program does limit an officer to two purchases per month. S&W's individual officer pricing in my area is about $5.00 cheaper than a similar Glock pistol.
You were lied to...
Beat Trash
06-16-11, 12:25
GlockTalk is starting to look like a Keltec forum.
I thought it did all along!
arcticlightfighter
06-16-11, 17:49
$398 without night sights and 3 mags for the 9, .40 and .357 SIG
Code3Patriot
06-16-11, 19:21
This thread went way off topic...
ElyasWolff
06-16-11, 23:21
This thread went way off topic...
I am sorry for that.
---End thread hijack---
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