View Full Version : Apex Tactical Forward Sitting Sear and Trigger Overview.
I posted my thoughts on the Apex Forward Sitting Sear a few months ago but now the circle is complete (har) and i have one of Randy's new triggers in hand.
Over the next couple of weeks i will be trying this trigger and sear combo in several different guns but i started the test in my 9C with Thumb Safety as i have a keen interest in running a short throw trigger with an active safety. To me, in a polymer gun this is theoretically as close to a 1911 as we are going to get. Did Randy achieve that goal? Read on!
http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/4917/apextacticalfss1of1.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/708/apextacticalfss1of1.jpg/)
Above is a picture of what comes in the kit.
1X Apex Tactical Trigger
1X Apex Tactical Forward Sitting Sear
1X Apex modified USB.
1X Apex USB Spring
1X Apex tapered trigger return spring
1X Apex Large sear spring
1X Talon Tactical striker block tool.
You will need the following:
1X Trigger bar
1X Trigger pin
Both of these parts can be salvaged from your existing trigger or purchased individually from S&W.
The install starts with the removal of essentially everything in your frame.
1. Remove the two tapered pins in the frame and the locking block pin.
2. Remove your sear housing
3. Remove your takedown lever.
4. Remove your locking block.
5. Remove your slide lock
6. Remove your trigger components.
From here you're going to need to either press out the trigger pin or start the installation into your new Apex Trigger. Pick your poison and do what needs doing.
I STRONGLY recommend you PRESS the pin into the Apex Tactical Trigger from the LEFT to the RIGHT via bench vise and padded blocks/wood. Trying to hammer the pin in is going to end in a marred trigger and lots of cursing. Also, ensure that you're pushing the pin in STRAIGHT the first time as its entirely possible to gall the aluminum. A little drop of penetrating oil goes a long way towards helping that pin slide in.
Now, having said this, one thing i noted was just how freaking HARD the Apex trigger is. Whatever they made the trigger out of is very sturdy (its aluminum, i dont know what grade) and the anodizing is absolutely top notch as i was unable to scratch the trigger or get it to gall despite my first attempt with a pin punch and hammer...yeah...dont ask. I realized very quickly that i would have to press the pin in rather than hammer. Hopefully this observation will help the rest of your folks.
One more recommendation. Press the pin in slowly until it is flush with the sides of the trigger and THEN press in completely with your trigger bar in position. Doing it this way will minimize the amount of tasks you need to do at once by freeing up your hands and concentration. Go SLOWLY, you will NOT want to have to hammer the pin out if you go too far resulting in the pin blocking the pathway for the trigger bar to sit in.
I will post some pictures of this shortly.
Once you're done with this simply reverse your disassembly process and reinstall.
Now, before we get into impressions i will say that for ME in this particular instance the install was NOT plug and play. I had to tweak the trigger bar shepherds crook in order to get the sear to drop. What i will say is that for whatever reason, every single trigger bar ive ever gotten from Smith has always required tweaking for the sake of consistency so i was not particularly surprised by this.
Ok, moving along to the impressions:
1. The trigger throw is SHORT. Break characteristics and overall throw when the sear is engaged is the SAME as the standard Apex Hard Sear.
2. There is ZERO pre travel.
3. There is ZERO over travel.
The trigger itself limits the pre travel and over travel by using the geometry of the frame, ie the strongest part. There is ZERO undue flex on the trigger bar which can lead to inconsistent trigger break qualities or walking trigger pins.
4. Due to the fact that there is no hinge present the trigger feels deceptively short in its overall throw. The square face also rests the pad of my trigger finger squarely (har) and there was ZERO shifting of my trigger finger during rapid fire which is a definite good thing. Also, as an aside, the trigger safety on this particular design actually works whereas i find the stock M&P hinged trigger safety more of a formality than an actual functional safety
5. The trigger tends to break a little farther to the rear than i would prefer but i do not believe this is actually what is happening. The user needs to keep in mind that there is NO hinge present in this design and the trigger itself is fatter than the stock trigger so the engagement point of the sear and the actual break point ARE indeed further forward than the standard Apex Hard Sear. Its not quite as far forward as a David Bowie LX trigger job or the jobs that ive performed on my guns but its desirable to me nonetheless.
Range Report:
I only had a chance to put 150 rounds through the setup in my 9c as im still actively shooting and abusing my Gen 4 G19 but my report is that the gun is flawless. The trigger break feels great normal, ie it is the same, standard Apex affair and that is definitely a good thing.
If i had to gripe about a few things i would say that this trigger is almost too good. Due to the design characteristics this trigger VERY closely mimics the throw of a 1911 which we all know encourages trigger slapping. The same can be said with this style of trigger. You can DEFINITELY make your hits ALOT easier and get away with ALOT more in regard to LACK of trigger control with this trigger.
Now, since there are no rules when it comes to a gunfight and competition is all about winning, this is hardly a bad thing so i cannot really count this as a true "negative". For ME this is a negative as ive always been used to staging my trigger prior to breaking shots, especially at range. That slow, rolling press is what gives me accuracy at distance. Cranking away on a short throw trigger always makes things harder for ME when it comes to accuracy. IF i do my part and im paying 100% attention to my fundamentals then sure, a 1911 style trigger really shines but im not at a level where i can operate at 100% all of the time.
The only TRUE gripe that i have is the trigger safety. It definitely needs oil, or even grease as i felt it during firing much more so than i would have liked. Practically speaking this is a dumb gripe as its NOT going to tear your hand up, cause undue comfort or degrade your accuracy potential i just felt that it operated in an awkward manner and it wasnt for me. If it were a bit smoother in its operation i would strike this statement from the overview. Keep in mind, this is a subjective observation and probably me just being picky for the sake of being picky. I compare this to the "sproing" sound some people complain about when firing an AR15. Sorry but if your gun is "sproingy" and THAT is what you're focusing on during firing, well, you're DOING IT WRONG. My response to these styles of gripes is always "Dude, the sound of a gunshot is a hell of a lot more violent and obnoxious than the "sproing" of your action spring..get over it".
Having said that, ill take a page from my book and get over it.
More pictures and video will be inbound. I am currently working on a comparison video between the Apex Hard Sear (DCAEK), my own Bowie LX inspired trigger work and Randy's new Trigger Kit.
Randy hit this one out of the park and anyone looking for a short throw trigger would be wise to smash their keyboard as violently as possible until the webstore for Apex Tactical comes up and the trigger is resting comfortably in your shopping cart.
Any questions, feel free to ask!
Dammit. As a real 1911 freak, I'm enthralled. I want this.
Nephrology
05-21-11, 20:12
This sounds like a good product. Too bad they dont make them for Glocks :D
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-21-11, 22:37
So I put the DCAEK kit in earlier this week and thought two things.
1. This is an awesome trigger, except for for how far back the break is.
2. After getting the trigger back in, I was glad I never had to do that again
Guess I was wrong on #2.
I noticed in the APEX website says that the new trigger is for competition. In your opinion, is that because if the short throw, or weight? Would it be OK for a CCW gun?
Strangely enough, the Apex DUTY Kit is far more appropriate for Duty/CCW use than the Apex Forward Sitting Sear and Trigger.
outrider627
05-21-11, 23:57
So I put the DCAEK kit in earlier this week and thought two things.
1. This is an awesome trigger, except for for how far back the break is.
2. After getting the trigger back in, I was glad I never had to do that again
Guess I was wrong on #2.
I noticed in the APEX website says that the new trigger is for competition. In your opinion, is that because if the short throw, or weight? Would it be OK for a CCW gun?
Apex wrote on their Facebook page that they're working on a duty version of the FSS. IIRC it's combination of both the short throw and the weight that make the FSS currently competition only.
Shrug.
I think training, mindset and experience level play alot into whether or not this is "duty ready".
For the average police officer, absolutely not.
For the above average police officer that trains, is proficient and understands how their chosen weapons platform works, perhaps.
It all comes down to what the individual is comfortable with. Like ive said before and i will say again. This trigger is as close to a 1911 as we are going to get in a polymer gun. Now, having said this, there is no way in hell i would EVER CCW or theoretically run as a duty weapon (im not LE, hence the hypothetical) a 1911 without a safety.
The same goes for this style of trigger for a few reasons.
I personally like a BIT of pre travel or something in the system that i have to consciously attend to prior to the gun shot going off.
Let me elaborate.
Keep in mind i am speaking from a civilian perspective so these OPINIONS are not absolute statements.
Example 1.
The buzzer goes off, i have made a decision to shoot which means i have to do the following:
1. I have made a commitment to drawing.
2. As i begin my press out, my sights are on the target and my finger begins to stage the trigger.
3. As my front sight settles, slightly before full extension i press through my take up and break my shot where i want it to go.
Example 2.
1. I have made a commitment to drawing and engaging a lethal threat...or an evil cardboard man.
2. As i begin my press out my sights are on the target and my finger comes in contact with the trigger.
3. My safety is disengaged as my press out begins.
4. My shot breaks when i see my front sight where i want to be on my target.
In each example, i am doing something CONSCIOUSLY before the trigger breaks and the gun discharges. In the case of example 1 i am taking up the slack. In the case of example 2 i am disengaging my safety.
Both of these criteria can be redacted IF i so choose to do so. If for whatever reason i decide that i CANNOT take that shot i merely let out the slack. If for whatever reason the target becomes obscured and the shot cannot be taken, i re engage my safety and orient my muzzle in a safe direction.
This is partly why for duty and CCW use most people advocate heavier triggers simply because you have to press and then almost push through the resistance to make you aware that you're pressing that trigger and that your firearm is about to discharge.
With the FSS and trigger as is i would not be comfortable running it in a duty setup as i regard this puppy as "On or Off". There is no in between, there is no staging the trigger. Now, this also comes back to the whole idea of some of the principle issues of gun safety, ie the four cardinal rules but perfection is illusory and mistakes happen. A trigger like this without a thumb safety removes some of the conscious thought involved in the process and takes away a margin of error so to speak.
This could be regarded as either a good or a bad thing but this is also why i said it comes down to the officers level of proficiency and why one cannot utter a statement like "approved for duty use".
Having said all of this, the bottom line is that this is a superb trigger, one that will probably rock the gaming world as nothing like it exists. For duty use, if you have a thumb safety like i said earlier, i would be making plans to sell internal organs to get one of these.
I hope that answers some of the questions.
This piece looks awesome, thanks for the review!
Might switch out my M&P sear for the APEX one due to long fingers...
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-23-11, 00:12
Magsz,
Thanks for your thoughts. My M&P has a safety, so I hadn't even considered running a short take up safetyless gun. My main thought was that if someone picked up an M&P with the forward mod and didn't know it and was caught unaware.
While I like the DCAEK, it feels like trigger finger is going to hit the webbing of thumb since the break is sofar rearwards.
Really excited to have a hi-cap 9mm 1911 at a third of the price of an STI and mags that I don't have to go mideval on to work. Looking forward to seeing what Apex does tomake it Duty rated.
Robb Jensen
05-23-11, 06:26
I installed the forward set sear and new aluminum non hinging trigger, it's takes up is about 1/3-1/2 the distance until you feel the sear. I originally installed it with the trigger return spring that comes with it. I found it a bit heavy when dry firing so I installed a S&W factory trigger return spring. I used this gun for the VA/MD Section match (placed 4th B class in Limited, 23rd overall of 63 shooters in Limited) The gun ran 100% and both at the range and in the match I could run the gun a bit faster than this same gun with a Apex Duty/CCW kit. I'm also using the Apex RAM. I'm using a factory recoil spring and was using Magtech 180gr FMJ ammo which made 183.6PF at chrono (average velocity of 1020fps, I really need to start reloading!)
This is my S&W M&P40 Pro 5" gun with the Apex forward set sear and new aluminum trigger.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/Pro40Apex4.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/Pro40Apex3.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/Pro40Apex.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/Pro40Apex2.jpg
Have they already been shipping out? I ordered one the first day they were available and I haven't gotten shipping confirmation yet...
Have they already been shipping out? I ordered one the first day they were available and I haven't gotten shipping confirmation yet...
Hi cktenders,
Robb, Magsz and 11 others were sent pre-production kits to test installation difficulty and performance. They are the "crash test dummies" if you will. Their feedback will help me iron out the end product and tutorial video to make installation as trouble free as possible- before you receive yours in a week or so.
Magsz pointed out that installation of the trigger bar/trigger connecting pin required more attention in order to prevent damage by trying to hammer the pin in. As a result of his feedback the kit you receive should have a new pin that is inserted 3/4 the way in. That way all you need to do is insert your trigger bar and press the pin in the rest of the way.
-Randy
Mags did a good review. Got my trigger kit as well and installed it on Sunday. As we all know (or should know), LOOOONG trigger pulls increase ones ability to flinch while pulling the trigger. This can be overcome by lots of training and trigger time. Most shooters don't have the time or money for either (hence why many gravitate to the 1911).
The hinged trigger on the M&P often made me feel like I was NOT pulling the trigger straight to the rear. Part of the reason for this is because I have spent so many years running 1911's (which are square to the frame and are short).
I installed the new trigger, striker block, forward sear, trigger return spring, plunger spring and S&W's new trigger bar (is red at the tip or marked with the letter "H" for those that don't know). The first dry fire was love and immediately made me think of a 1911 trigger.
Excited by the GREAT trigger feel, I went down to my range to shoot 100rds. Oh boy, was this thing fast. I was running the gun MUCH faster (and more accurately) than I have ever done before. In fact, I was running it so fast that my wife asked me what I was shooting. :ph34r:
The trigger did feel a little bit light to me so I measured it. Right around 2.15-3.05. Hmmm, why is it so light. Then I remembered that I had their competition striker spring in my gun. So I replaced that and measured the pull weight again. Right at 4LBS. Perfect.
Personally, I like my CCW and training guns to be between 4LBS and 5LBS. Apex has stiffer springs for those that need it over 5LBS (LE use).
My personal thought is that the average gun owner that really doesn't "tinker" with his guns and have the right tools should not install this trigger group. As mags mentioned, you can screw some stuff up (especially on the trigger pin that holds the trigger bar in place).
We look forward to these kits coming out and will offer them already INSTALLED on new guns for those that are interested.
C4
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/SW/Apex_TG.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/SW/Apex_TG1.jpg
alvincullumyork
05-23-11, 12:21
I have a few question for any the three people in the thread that have used the FSS and trigger combo.
1.) Is the safety bar similar in feel to a Glocks or is it more subtle? I don't like how much the bar on Glock trigger sticks out, it feels uncomfortable to me.
2.) (I guess this question is really only for Grant and Randy) Since I already have my gun and it sounds like the install might be out of comfort zone will either of you, Grant or Randy, be offering installation of this product if I send my gun to you? I bought the gun from G and R if that makes a difference.
Randy, it is really amazing what you have been able to turn out product wise for the m&p line. Every time I see you post I get excited. Thanks for your time and knowledge.
And thanks to Grant and Magsz for enduring what sounds to be a horrible testing experience. If you need a break from those terrible triggers just let me know.:D
Alvin,
Its not as obtrusive as the Glock safety but this is coming from a guy that is not bothered in the least by the Glock trigger safety.
My gripes with the trigger safety bar are being addressed. Randy really is committed to making the absolute best product he can offer.
I have a few question for any the three people in the thread that have used the FSS and trigger combo.
1.) Is the safety bar similar in feel to a Glocks or is it more subtle? I don't like how much the bar on Glock trigger sticks out, it feels uncomfortable to me.
Less IMHO. Won't even notice it.
2.) (I guess this question is really only for Grant and Randy) Since I already have my gun and it sounds like the install might be out of comfort zone will either of you, Grant or Randy, be offering installation of this product if I send my gun to you? I bought the gun from G and R if that makes a difference.
We now have a certified M&P armorer coming in to help me in the shop so we will be offering trigger and sight installs in the near future.
Not to speak for Randy and crew, but they can do everything that your M&P needs done to it X 10.
Randy, it is really amazing what you have been able to turn out product wise for the m&p line. Every time I see you post I get excited. Thanks for your time and knowledge.
Agree. Randy and crew has turned the M&P into a polymer gun that has a MUCH better trigger system than any other polymer gun out there.
And thanks to Grant and Magsz for enduring what sounds to be a horrible testing experience. If you need a break from those terrible triggers just let me know.:D
Dude, let me tell you! My gun got so hot from all the mag dumps I was doing (and hitting what I was aiming at) that I had to set it down. The hours and ammo that this new trigger makes me want to waste is endless. It is a real burden to carry. :jester:
C4
2.) (I guess this question is really only for Grant and Randy) Since I already have my gun and it sounds like the install might be out of comfort zone will either of you, Grant or Randy, be offering installation of this product if I send my gun to you?
We would be happy to perform the installation. Since Grant is fully able to do the same, I suppose it boils down to what location is cheaper in terms of shipping.
-Randy
Probably a dumb question, but is the RAM compatible with this kit and if it is, does it even do/add anything to the overall package? About to place a pre-order and I am not sure of I should order a RAM.
Probably a dumb question, but is the RAM compatible with this kit and if it is, does it even do/add anything to the overall package? About to place a pre-order and I am not sure of I should order a RAM.
Can you use it? Yes (I am). Do you need it? No.
C4
Thanks Magsz, Robb and Grant for the info and pictures. Makes it a lot easier to understand whats going on with these parts.
We look forward to these kits coming out and will offer them already INSTALLED on new guns for those that are interested.
Nice! I was hoping you were going to offer this. I see a another M&P in my future for a back up.
Fire_Medic
05-23-11, 18:49
Can you use it? Yes (I am). Do you need it? No.
C4
The one I had on order was in today when I went to see my local guy, to "me" it makes a huge difference, not only in the feel of the reset, but audibly you also hear it very clearly. I am VERY happy with the Apex parts in my M&P 9mm, and would not hesitate to recommend them to anyone.
As Grant said, it's not "needed" but very nice to have :D
Danmmit Randy...
Now, I don't know what to do..I just about had myself all talked into buying a PPQ, because I wasn't excited about my M&P9's longer range accuracy. You're getting ready to bring out a Bar-sto barrel that cures that,and to top it off, now you bring out the FSS, with, if I'm understanding correctly a duty/carry version in the works, and of course,when these are ready, I'll have to install one in my 9, and in my .45 as well as a bar-sto barrel for the 9.. Good Lord, Apex parts are as addicting as crack.:D
Good Lord, Apex parts are as addicting as crack.:D
Wait till you see what comes out in about a year....:D
Fire_Medic
05-23-11, 20:02
Wait till you see what comes out in about a year....:D
Tease..... :jester:
Tease..... :jester:
I was talking about a new toaster with our logo on it...:eek:
Sorry for the drift.
-Randy
Fire_Medic
05-23-11, 20:23
I was talking about a new toaster with our logo on it...:eek:
Sorry for the drift.
-Randy
Does it have a RAM to make the toast pop out in a more positive manner when ready? :D
Absolutely! And it spreads preserves on the way. I call it the JAM RAM. :)
Thank you. I'll be here all week...
Fire_Medic
05-23-11, 21:40
Absolutely! And it spreads preserves on the way. I call it the JAM RAM. :)
Thank you. I'll be here all week...
LOL......jam ram, good one, I spit Pepsi out laughing, forgot how much it burns out the nose....
:lol:
LOL......jam ram, good one, I spit Pepsi out laughing, forgot how much it burns out the nose....
:lol:
Ouch!
Oh, I need to mention that we will be offering an identical aluminum trigger for use with our standard sears. It will reduce the amount of pre travel and therefore shorten overall trigger travel, but the break point will still be towards the rear of the trigger stroke as our sear is designed to do.
It will allow for the use of all our comp and dc AEKs.
-Randy
GreenMtnLife
05-23-11, 22:40
Ouch!
Oh, I need to mention that we will be offering an identical aluminum trigger for use with our standard sears. It will reduce the amount of pre travel and therefore shorten overall trigger travel, but the break point will still be towards the rear of the trigger stroke as our sear is designed to do.
It will allow for the use of all our comp and dc AEKs.
-Randy
You guys need an in development section on your webpage! How are we supposed to keep up with all this?:D
My goal is to keep Smith's Engineers on their toes and their executives asking some very good questions...
masternave
05-24-11, 08:17
So let me get this straight, this is not something you can add on top of the DCAEK, it would seem to be an alternative. Is that true? If so, why would you pick one over the other?
Nave,
You can add SOME of the springs from the DCAEK to adjust trigger break weight but for the most part, the DCAEK is a stand alone product.
The DCAEK is a "Duty & Carry" kit. It is meant to induce pre travel, limit your pull weight to 5-5.50 pounds and smooth out the overall experience.
SOME M&P aficionados, myself included felt that the DCAEK and even the stock trigger components broke too far to the rear of the frame. Its not that i have huge hands but the way in which they are constructed leads me to an imperfect fit with the M&P and its trigger system.
By moving the break point forward i negate the issues that i was having where my finger would creep into the trigger guard when running the gun at speed.
Here is a video that explains the difference:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uohQeHxPFL0
Ouch!
Oh, I need to mention that we will be offering an identical aluminum trigger for use with our standard sears. It will reduce the amount of pre travel and therefore shorten overall trigger travel, but the break point will still be towards the rear of the trigger stroke as our sear is designed to do.
It will allow for the use of all our comp and dc AEKs.
-Randy
I like this even better..
How much of a pre travel reduction, And how soon will it be out? any idea as to cost? Any new news on the new barrel? I'm thinking the money I would've spent on a new pistol could be spent improving two I already have, and when I'm done, I should have two pretty damn good pistols...
My goal is to keep Smith's Engineers on their toes and their executives asking some very good questions...
I think you've got them drinking pepto bismol by the quart...
masternave
05-24-11, 20:50
Any prediction on the price tag on the stand alone trigger, so I can start pinching pennies?
You guys need an in development section on your webpage! How are we supposed to keep up with all this?:D
No joke. Every time I get ready to send my pistol off to Randy something new comes up. So I hold off a little longer.
I think you've got them drinking pepto bismol by the quart...
Wait til they see whats in store over the next several months. ;)
Pic of my gun with the new trigger installed.
C4
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Grant's%20weapons/MP_9mm_RMR.jpg
snackgunner
05-25-11, 08:49
double tap
snackgunner
05-25-11, 08:50
Pic of my gun with the new trigger installed.
C4
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Grant's%20weapons/MP_9mm_RMR.jpg
thats a FS m&p 9mm? What is the extension you have on there, that says "plus 2" ??
Do you have a 17rd mag in there, or is it holding more rounds than 17?
thats a FS m&p 9mm? What is the extension you have on there, that says "plus 2" ??
Do you have a 17rd mag in there, or is it holding more rounds than 17?
Full size. That is the MecGar 2 round extender which actually adds 3 rounds to the gun (for a total of 20rds)! We have them in stock for $14.
C4
Are the MecGar extensions better than the Arrendondo? I can't get the Arrendondos to function reliably on my Glock or M&P.
Are the MecGar extensions better than the Arrendondo? I can't get the Arrendondos to function reliably on my Glock or M&P.
I think so.
C4
Robb Jensen
05-25-11, 10:51
Are the MecGar extensions better than the Arrendondo? I can't get the Arrendondos to function reliably on my Glock or M&P.
With M&P are you using stronger & longer mag springs?
I use the Speed Shooter Specialties mag springs and have never had any issues with Arrendondo mag extensions (at least 25K rounds fired through 4 different guns in 9mm and .40 with Arrendondo mag extensions). I get 19 rounds in .40 and 22 rounds in 9mm.
Yep. Even with the longer springs I'm having reliability issues.
On another forum, the discussion came up about using this trigger for CCW use. I know that Apex says no to it (and understand why they would say that), but for me, as long as the trigger pull is over 4lbs, I would have no issue with it.
Follow the golden rule of keeping your trigger finger out of the trigger guard until ready to fire and all is well.
C4
Grant,
I tend to agree although ive got to be honest, a short throw like this makes me a little nervous carrying so close to my precious junk.
Guns with two pound triggers rest comfortably in holsters all day, every day in the competition world and we dont read about guns going off and blowing off limbs every day.
The gun is as safe as the person using it (barring the end user making it mechanically unsafe).
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-25-11, 14:02
On another forum, the discussion came up about using this trigger for CCW use. I know that Apex says no to it (and understand why they would say that), but for me, as long as the trigger pull is over 4lbs, I would have no issue with it.
Follow the golden rule of keeping your trigger finger out of the trigger guard until ready to fire and all is well.
C4
Grant,
I tend to agree although ive got to be honest, a short throw like this makes me a little nervous carrying so close to my precious junk.
Guns with two pound triggers rest comfortably in holsters all day, every day in the competition world and we dont read about guns going off and blowing off limbs every day.
The gun is as safe as the person using it (barring the end user making it mechanically unsafe).
What would you think of using it in a safety equipped gun?
Randy- would you guys get to the point where you say a set-up is 'Duty' ready for use in a safety equipped gun, but not a standard gun?
I'd love it if Randy and Grant could work with SW to get some 5inch models with safeties, duty rated forward trigger kit and the new barrels. It would be so much better than buying two guns, selling one and throwing away most the Fire control parts and the barrel of the other.
I've used the Mecgar 18 round Sig mags with the +2 for 20 rounds with the same spring for both the 18 and 20 set ups. No feed problems in over 2000 rounds.
The kit shines with the extra piece of mind associated with a trigger.
As grant said, it is not required. Hell, for that matter, countless billions of rounds have been fired through Glocks without manual safeties.
This is a personal preference thing and is left up to the individual.
I think Randy is just trying to cover his ass by not promoting this trigger as being the solution to world hunger. Idiots will always be idiots and some times you have to deceive them into not hurting themselves.
Yes...its that sad but its true.
Grant,
I tend to agree although ive got to be honest, a short throw like this makes me a little nervous carrying so close to my precious junk.
Guns with two pound triggers rest comfortably in holsters all day, every day in the competition world and we dont read about guns going off and blowing off limbs every day.
The gun is as safe as the person using it (barring the end user making it mechanically unsafe).
If you are using Appendix carry, I would NEVER use a gun without an external safety (especially one with a short or light trigger).
I carry at the 3 O'Clock position so a 4lbs or 5lbs trigger with a short pull doesn't concern me in the least. Pay attention to your trigger finger when drawing and holstering and all is well.
C4
Some more pictures for you guys.
Hoping to be able to get some video work done this weekend but we will see.
http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/7189/apextacticalfss12of2.jpg
http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/8206/apextacticalfss11of2.jpg
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-25-11, 17:00
I just saw Randy on one of the shooting shows on TV at the revolver competitions!
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-25-11, 17:02
Magz or Grant- could you give us a measurement of the trigger face at rest, when it breaks and how far it goes in overtravel measured from the backstrap? Want to see how far forward it is compared to my DCAEK kit.
Thanks
If you are using Appendix carry, I would NEVER use a gun without an external safety (especially one with a short or light trigger).
I carry at the 3 O'Clock position so a 4lbs or 5lbs trigger with a short pull doesn't concern me in the least. Pay attention to your trigger finger when drawing and holstering and all is well.
C4
I agree. Most of us have carried 1911 with short 4 lbs triggers and glocks with "-" connectors that give about 4.5-5.5 lbs without problems. Like many of the pictures on this page, I stipple the frame of my Glocks on the ejection side just forward of the trigger guard. This gives me a nice index position for my trigger finger that is off the trigger during my draw.
Where I see the problem is for people who are accustomed to the original M&P trigger or other platforms similar to the H&K LEM were they start to take up trigger slack as they push the weapon out on their draw. There are probably a few members on this forum that have multiple M&Ps which could cause problems if some in their collection have the DCAEK and others have the forward setting trigger. However, this is nothing that can't be overcome with a few thousand rounds of training. I plan to leave the DCAEK in my M&Ps that do not have an external safety and switch to the forward trigger for the ones that do have a safety.
Slight thread drift:
I just ordered a new sear housing setup for the large sear spring as recommended by Randy to run with this kit. Does anybody know if this comes with the new larger sear plunger?
Slight thread drift:
I just ordered a new sear housing setup for the large sear spring as recommended by Randy to run with this kit. Does anybody know if this comes with the new larger sear plunger?
You get the large sear plunger spring in the kit.
C4
You get the large sear plunger spring in the kit.
C4
What about the plunger itself, thats what I am wondering about.
What about the plunger itself, thats what I am wondering about.
The sear housing blocks we sell have the large plunger in them. I have no idea where you bought yours from so I cannot say.
Apex Tactical does NOT provide sear plungers though (if that is what you are asking).
C4
The sear housing blocks we sell have the large plunger in them. I have no idea where you bought yours from so I cannot say.
Apex Tactical does NOT provide sear plungers though (if that is what you are asking).
C4
I know apex does not include them, just the large spring.
I ordered from Brownells so its a S&W factory part(277640000). The schematic on Brownells appears to show it comes with the plunger, factory spring, and some other parts, but the actual part description when you click on it doesnt say anything about that. I guess I will wait and see if it comes with it or not, and if not I will order one up from somewhere(hopefully this is a part S&W sells).
I know apex does not include them, just the large spring.
I ordered from Brownells so its a S&W factory part(277640000). The schematic on Brownells appears to show it comes with the plunger, factory spring, and some other parts, but the actual part description when you click on it doesnt say anything about that. I guess I will wait and see if it comes with it or not, and if not I will order one up from somewhere(hopefully this is a part S&W sells).
The assembly "should" come with all the internals. Which internals you get is a different story. I can almost gurantee that it will have the small sear plunger in it.
S&W does not sell sear housing blocks (especially the new, updated ones). So you will want to send it to Randy and have him drill it out to accept the larger plunger.
C4
The assembly "should" come with all the internals. Which internals you get is a different story. I can almost gurantee that it will have the small sear plunger in it.
S&W does not sell sear housing blocks (especially the new, updated ones). So you will want to send it to Randy and have him drill it out to accept the larger plunger.
C4
Well these are supposed to be the new and improved one with the large sear spring, thats why I ordered one. Brownells only got 25 in and they just got them last week or so if the guys on MP-Pistols are correct. If its not setup for the large spring im sending it back to Brownells and sending my stock one to Randy.
If by chance it is not setup for the large spring and plunger already and I send my factory one to Randy, do you have the large plungers by themselves or does S&W sell those by themselves?
Well these are supposed to be the new and improved one with the large sear spring, thats why I ordered one. Brownells only got 25 in and they just got them last week or so if the guys on MP-Pistols are correct. If its not setup for the large spring im sending it back to Brownells and sending my stock one to Randy.
If they JUST got them in, then you might be getting a new one (hard to say).
If by chance it is not setup for the large spring and plunger already and I send my factory one to Randy, do you have the large plungers by themselves or does S&W sell those by themselves?
We do. S&W typically does not sell parts like this.
C4
The sear housing blocks Brownells has(had) are big spring housing blocks.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v324/rjacobs1/IMG_20110601_211850.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v324/rjacobs1/IMG_20110601_211926.jpg
However they are also mag safety and ILS sear housing blocks, but those are supposed to be easy to remove.
The sear housing blocks Brownells has(had) are big spring housing blocks.
However they are also mag safety and ILS sear housing blocks, but those are supposed to be easy to remove.
Yep, that is the latest version.
C4
Grant, I saw that Randy replied but I didnt see one from you. Will you be offering installation services on this, especially if you can adjust the springs to give a 4 to 5 lb pull?
Randy:
Whats the status on these? I think you said they were supposed to ship out early this week, or was it last week? Still waiting on some parts? Not trying to rush you just wondering where these are in the pipeline.
I ordered one of these kits and just saw that a different sear housing is recommended or required? Is this an absolute requirement for this trigger upgrade as I cant seem to find any in stock anywhere? Also what differences will the new sear block give to the trigger pull?
Randy:
Whats the status on these? I think you said they were supposed to ship out early this week, or was it last week? Still waiting on some parts? Not trying to rush you just wondering where these are in the pipeline.
Hi,
We are still waiting for the triggers and safety levers to return from the Anodizing shop. I also had some new sear springs fabricated so that the kit will yield about a 5 lb pull if you use all the parts in the kit. I am keeping my fingers crossed that they will arrive at the same time that the triggers return. By mixing and matching the various springs you should be able to vary the pull weight from 3 lbs to 5 lbs depending upon your preferences and the intended application.
Sorry for the delays.
-Randy
I ordered one of these kits and just saw that a different sear housing is recommended or required? Is this an absolute requirement for this trigger upgrade as I cant seem to find any in stock anywhere? Also what differences will the new sear block give to the trigger pull?
Hi,
We recommend that the FSS be used in sear blocks with the larger diameter sear spring and plunger. This simply reduces or eliminates the possibility of a dead trigger. Basically, whenever you reduce over travel, or move the trigger reset point closer to the striker release point there is a greater chance that sear bounce can pop the trigger bar back beneath the sear and cause a dead trigger if the sear spring cannot respond fast enough.
The FSS will work with the old style sear spring and plunger, however I think it is best to have your existing sear block milled to accept the larger spring and plunger if you cannot obtain a newer style sear housing block.
-Randy
Hi,
We recommend that the FSS be used in sear blocks with the larger diameter sear spring and plunger. This simply reduces or eliminates the possibility of a dead trigger. Basically, whenever you reduce over travel, or move the trigger reset point closer to the striker release point there is a greater chance that sear bounce can pop the trigger bar back beneath the sear and cause a dead trigger if the sear spring cannot respond fast enough.
The FSS will work with the old style sear spring and plunger, however I think it is best to have your existing sear block milled to accept the larger spring and plunger if you cannot obtain a newer style sear housing block.
-Randy
Thanks Randy.....is there anyway to easily identify which housing I have without removing the sear?
Hi,
We are still waiting for the triggers and safety levers to return from the Anodizing shop. I also had some new sear springs fabricated so that the kit will yield about a 5 lb pull if you use all the parts in the kit. I am keeping my fingers crossed that they will arrive at the same time that the triggers return. By mixing and matching the various springs you should be able to vary the pull weight from 3 lbs to 5 lbs depending upon your preferences and the intended application.
Sorry for the delays.
-Randy
No worries, thanks for the update. I know you were working on a few tweaks to the kits, just wondering what the delay was. Sounds like you need to get setup to do anodizing.
I figured you were just out wasting time shooting revolvers or some such non-sense.:sarcastic:
Thanks Randy.....is there anyway to easily identify which housing I have without removing the sear?
No, not really. These are easy to remove and check though.
C4
Thanks Randy.....is there anyway to easily identify which housing I have without removing the sear?
Unfortunately, no. The only way to know for sure is by removing the sear from the sear housing.
-Randy
No worries, thanks for the update. I know you were working on a few tweaks to the kits, just wondering what the delay was. Sounds like you need to get setup to do anodizing.
I figured you were just out wasting time shooting revolvers or some such non-sense.:sarcastic:
Revolvers need love too!:D
AJSully421
06-11-11, 12:23
Dang it... now I am going to have to get an M&P and buy all of your parts again.
I had an M&P 9 that I had every APEX part installed, but I sold it because I DESPISED the "slightly longer than a glock" trigger pull and how the hinged trigger safety made it feel even longer and mushy. It seems that this fixes all of that, so now I MUST HAVE IT!!!
Question: I want to get a 9mm with a manual thumb safety, cut off the starboard paddle and use a LaserGrip, I also want the FSS with about a 4# pull. Is there going to be any issues with this combination?
EDIT: I mean to ask that with the thumb safety on an M&P you get a "dead trigger" pull (kinda like a beretta) until you hit the stop and then you realize that your safety is still on... will this setup clear the safety stop and give less of a dead trigger feel or at least a shorter one? Or will it give an almost 1911 solid feel and not let the trigger move at all unless the safety is off? Someone help me out here.
This will take care of my 9mm. Any plans for this in the 45 M&P's?
This will take care of my 9mm. Any plans for this in the 45 M&P's?
Hi,
We tested the kit in a 45C. We still need to look at a larger sample of 45s to see if it works for all of them before we commit to saying "yes"
-Randy
Exiledviking
06-12-11, 11:40
I've got a full-size M&P45 which could be used as a guinea pig...
I ordered mine on-line today. I have the comp AEK on my M&P 9L and it has worked very well, but this sounds like it will help even more with speed and accuracy. With Apex making partslike this, I may have to get a few more M&Ps!
I look forward to shooting my limited M&P at the Rockcastle ProAm match in August. Any one who wants to check out the new FSS, just let me know.
Hi all,
I just wanted to update everyone. The triggers and safety levers arrived today. We will be assembling the triggers this weekend and all pre orders will begin shipping on Monday.
-Randy
Magic_Salad0892
06-18-11, 01:06
I bet you could get some buyers if you just produced an APEX tactical pistol...
...hint hint... ;)
I bet you could get some buyers if you just produced an APEX tactical pistol...
...hint hint... ;)
We are getting closer to seeing that become a reality. ;)
-Randy
Magic_Salad0892
06-18-11, 07:32
We are getting closer to seeing that become a reality. ;)
-Randy
Does that mean you plan to build your own? Or you're building a new part for the M&P (or something) that takes up the majority of the gun? (Slide assembly)
Does that mean you plan to build your own? Or you're building a new part for the M&P (or something) that takes up the majority of the gun? (Slide assembly)
We are planning on making slides within the next 2 years. The first will be a 6" longslide and a FS which is pre-milled for a dot sight with co-witnessed iron sights.
-Randy
We don't have much need for a 6" slide, but we will be all over the FS.
What we really need is some good quality M&P slide stops, M&P Sear Housing Assemblies, and Glock Extractors...
We don't have much need for a 6" slide, but we will be all over the FS.
What we really need is some good quality M&P slide stops, M&P Sear Housing Assemblies, and Glock Extractors...
All coming to a shopping cart near you. :p
The 6" slides will be for USPSA Limited shooters and other games. I have an uncontrollable urge to build at least one M&P that will shoot 1" at 50 yds. Just to prove it can be done.
The FS slides will have a more serious application. Plus I'm tired of having to remove sights to access the striker block plunger...
-Randy
Magic_Salad0892
06-19-11, 08:02
What we really need is some good quality M&P stuff, and Glock Extractors...
Yes. Very much. The more research I do, the more I'm thinking I got lucky.
Extractor Depressor Plungers from a company we know will be around in 10 years would also be good. I like White Sound Defence's product, but I don't know the company.
Randy:
I had two quick questions:
1) When is the install video going to be available for this upgrade?
2) When can we send you our weapons for the install?
I ask because I've been able to install 3 DCAEK upgrades, but one of my pistols (M&P45 with safety and no mag disconnect) will not work with the DCEAK. It has a mushy trigger with no break that will not reset the striker when I rack the slide. The pistol works fine with the factory sear and striker block, so it is hard to send it back to S&W as a warranty issue. However, I do not think that it is a problem with the DCAEK kit since that same kit installs and functions fine on another pistol. There must be some minor variance with that particular pistol, and I love for some expert eyes from your shop to take a look. I'm tiered of bugging Scott with questions, and I bet you guys could diagnose and fix any problems when you install the forward setting sear and trigger.
Randy:
I had two quick questions:
1) When is the install video going to be available for this upgrade?
2) When can we send you our weapons for the install?
I ask because I've been able to install 3 DCAEK upgrades, but one of my pistols (M&P45 with safety and no mag disconnect) will not work with the DCEAK. It has a mushy trigger with no break that will not reset the striker when I rack the slide. The pistol works fine with the factory sear and striker block, so it is hard to send it back to S&W as a warranty issue. However, I do not think that it is a problem with the DCAEK kit since that same kit installs and functions fine on another pistol. There must be some minor variance with that particular pistol, and I love for some expert eyes from your shop to take a look. I'm tiered of bugging Scott with questions, and I bet you guys could diagnose and fix any problems when you install the forward setting sear and trigger.
Hi,
Scott is working on uploading the install tutorial today.
We'd be happy to look at your 45 and see what tolerance issues might be going on in the gun with our parts.
-Randy
Just got shipping confirmation!
Any word on the install video? I will be getting my kit today and im impatient.
Scott is uploading it now...
Great video. I will report my results as soon as my mailman shows up with my kit.
p.s. you guys need an HD video camera, it would make your video's so much better. Unless its youtube that degrades the quality of them, which is always a possibility.
ghostrider1
06-23-11, 13:46
I am ordering one TA-NIGHT!!!!!!! I was waiting for something like this. I have a midsize 45 w/ ambi safety. I think am going to love this mod. Now I can take my m&p off the market.:dance3:
Great video. I will report my results as soon as my mailman shows up with my kit.
p.s. you guys need an HD video camera, it would make your video's so much better. Unless its youtube that degrades the quality of them, which is always a possibility.
The HD video is uploading now. Scott just wanted to get something up there so that those eager beavers could get the kits installed and running.
-Randy
Got one of the heavier plunger springs from Randy and it brought up my trigger pull to about four pounds and 8 ounces. If you do not have everything polished, trigger pull will be real close to 5lbs I think (FYI).
Also, if you are running a RAM and experience any dead trigger issues, it is most likely the result of too much spring tension (of the RAM Spring). Get the weaker spring from Apex and it will resolve the issue.
C4
Hi cktenders,
Robb, Magsz and 11 others were sent pre-production kits to test installation difficulty and performance. They are the "crash test dummies" if you will. Their feedback will help me iron out the end product and tutorial video to make installation as trouble free as possible- before you receive yours in a week or so.
Magsz pointed out that installation of the trigger bar/trigger connecting pin required more attention in order to prevent damage by trying to hammer the pin in. As a result of his feedback the kit you receive should have a new pin that is inserted 3/4 the way in. That way all you need to do is insert your trigger bar and press the pin in the rest of the way.
-Randy
From looking at the installation video it looks like you decided against providing the trigger with a partly installed pin?
From looking at the installation video it looks like you decided against providing the trigger with a partly installed pin?
No, the pins are being produced now but won't be back from heat treat until late next week. Rather than hold up the shipment, we decided to send out the first batch without. Scott and I also have to make jigs to speed up insertion on 500 units at a time. We have to hand assemble and check each unit.
-Randy
Skunk Pilot
06-29-11, 23:38
Magsz,
Thanks for the nice writeup. It helped me, especially when installing the trigger pin.
I had Randy's video up on my TV and the AGI - Smith & Wesson M&P Pistol Armorer's Course video playing on the laptop. Since 1st time taking apart the M&P I couldn't of done it without either of them, well I could of but would of taken another 3 hours.
I had a hell of a time getting off my rear sight, a very, very hard time PITA. I was amazed at how hard it was, especially after watching other videos on youtube over the last couple months here and there.
Since I had to buy the newer Sear Housing Block I also had that Internal Lock on there with the spring and washer in the middle. My original sear housing block didn't have it. But when I went to put it in last night, it just would not go in there. So I took out that plastic or aluminum plug and it went in within 10 seconds. But it was 5 hours after I should of went to bed anyways, so left it for tonight.
Tonight after I popped that stupid thing out it only took me a minute to get the new sear in and then another 2 minutes to get the gun finalized.
Then I pulled the trigger, and W O W !!!! Very, very impressed Randy and Co. Randy, kudos Big Boss Man :big_boss:
I did polish the trigger bar a little bit, the sear and the striker. Didn't see a need to do it on the Apex USB, was much more smooth than the original one. Even if it would still help to polish it, I'm not taking off that damn rear sight unless I absolutely need to. Also having the PDF from Burwell Gunsmithing on the M&P Trigger Job helped too.
Thanks again. Now I'm looking forward to shooting it for the first time. I don't think I've ever gone shooting by myself, but if I can't get anyone to go shoot with me within 2-5 days I think I'm just going to go to the range anyways. I have my Buckmark I did a trigger tweak on also that I haven't shot yet either.
Could someone please post a link to the FSST install video. I've searched Google, YouTube, and the Apex website with no luck.
Could someone please post a link to the FSST install video. I've searched Google, YouTube, and the Apex website with no luck.
http://www.youtube.com/apextactical#p/a/u/0/Uo__f4ldJ3Q
Skunk Pilot
06-30-11, 03:10
Could someone please post a link to the FSST install video. I've searched Google, YouTube, and the Apex website with no luck.
That's actually a very good question. I forgot it took me forever to find it.
On Apex's Youtube channel, after I logged in I sorted by date and that didn't do anything either (just did it now and it did work, they must of fixed a tagging issue or something). I thought I read that Apex (Scott) was going to post the HD version, I only found the 240p version. It is not good enough video quality in my opinion, at least for someone like me who has never taken apart a M&P before. If I didn't have that AGI _ M&P Pistol video it would of taken me a little longer. But no biggie really since the DCAEK video could be used for most of it since it's at 480p and good enough quality.
Is there a verdict on the use of FSS kits in M&P .45's?
Hi,
The FSS will work in the 45. Once in a while a trigger loop needs to be opened up by .003-.005" in order to increase over travel (so that the striker will release). I had to do this on one 45c.
-Randy
Hi,
The FSS will work in the 45. Once in a while a trigger loop needs to be opened up by .003-.005" in order to increase over travel (so that the striker will release). I had to do this on one 45c.
-Randy
Excellent! Are these kits still on pre-order status?
When will you reveal the 6" 10mm conversion kit?
Excellent! Are these kits still on pre-order status?
When will you reveal the 6" 10mm conversion kit?
There are about 100 units assembled now, and Lisa is filling the orders as we speak. The kits will be off the pre-order status after tomorrow though...
And as far as a 10mm... yikes!
I didn't think you could top the DCAEK but I was obviously wrong. I put a few hundred over the FSS in the last week and it's an extremely useful upgrade for dudes with gigantic hands. I'll definitely be ordering more in the future for my other M&Ps.
Installed mine last night. The trigger pin was a beast to get back in!
One thing I have noticed on mine is the foot of the trigger is contacting / dragging on the trigger guard. It has the full range of motion, but it is contacting a thin flash line on the inside of the trigger guard. There is zero space between the foot of the trigger and the TG. I'm thinking about sanding it down a little, but wondering if this is normal before I modify the frame to get more clearance. The contact makes the pull feel gritty as the trigger makes contact along its stroke.
One thing I have noticed on mine is the foot of the trigger is contacting / dragging on the trigger guard. It has the full range of motion, but it is contacting a thin flash line on the inside of the trigger guard. There is zero space between the foot of the trigger and the TG. I'm thinking about sanding it down a little, but wondering if this is normal before I modify the frame to get more clearance. The contact makes the pull feel gritty as the trigger makes contact along its stroke.
Mine is not like this. I would take a little 400 grit into the trigger guard and clean it up a little. Probably wont take much.
Have run into a snag getting mine in....
Got everything installed per the video, however the trigger doesn't reset or break? Its pulls back but doesn't break and can't be pulled forward to reset either. Watching the video again it looks like I have something wrong around the 18min mark where Randy performed the trigger reset check. When I move my trigger bar over for reset it does not move back to the sear.
Any ideas?
Have run into a snag getting mine in....
Got everything installed per the video, however the trigger doesn't reset or break? Its pulls back but doesn't break and can't be pulled forward to reset either. Watching the video again it looks like I have something wrong around the 18min mark where Randy performed the trigger reset check. When I move my trigger bar over for reset it does not move back to the sear.
Any ideas?
Well my first idea is to have a professional armor like Randy or myself put this item into your gun. :lol:
Sorry couldn't help myself. :D
Back to your problem. Without seeing what you are looking at, it is hard to know for certain. First things first, is the sear housing block back in the gun and all pins are installed? If so, can you pull the trigger to the rear?
Note, I have not watched the video so I do not know what is going on at the 18 min. mark.
C4
Installed mine last night. The trigger pin was a beast to get back in!
One thing I have noticed on mine is the foot of the trigger is contacting / dragging on the trigger guard. It has the full range of motion, but it is contacting a thin flash line on the inside of the trigger guard. There is zero space between the foot of the trigger and the TG. I'm thinking about sanding it down a little, but wondering if this is normal before I modify the frame to get more clearance. The contact makes the pull feel gritty as the trigger makes contact along its stroke.
Have not seen this, but is most likely just flashing that should have been removed in the first place.
C4
Well my first idea is to have a professional armor like Randy or myself put this item into your gun. :lol:
Sorry couldn't help myself. :D
Back to your problem. Without seeing what you are looking at, it is hard to know for certain. First things first, is the sear housing block back in the gun and all pins are installed? If so, can you pull the trigger to the rear?
Note, I have not watched the video so I do not know what is going on at the 18 min. mark.
C4
LOL.....yeah this one has me stumped since I'm typically able to do this type of work with no problems. Randy gave a call about it right after I posted....thats great service indeed! Discussed a few things but still no fix. Gonna follow back up next week.
Yes I have everything in place and the gun all the way back together. The trigger pulls to the rear but doesnt release the striker. Randy thinks the loop on the trigger bar may need to be adjusted which I am gonna try. The other issue is that there is no reset.
I didn't see this mentioned directly, so I'll ask.
Is the reset shorter with this unit installed? I was wondering this since the break is set farther forward now.
I didn't see this mentioned directly, so I'll ask.
Is the reset shorter with this unit installed? I was wondering this since the break is set farther forward now.
Hi,
Yes, both PT and OT have been minimized.
-Randy
Incrementally open up the trigger bar loop.
What you're seeing is the trigger bar engaging the sear but not camming it down enough to release the striker.
The trigger bar loop should be adjusted in MICRO increments as a little adjustment goes a VERY long way.
Give it a whirl and post back.
Sounds like a good mod. I just ordered one along with a RCS Phantom IWB holster and mag pouch for my new M&P9.
I used to carry a 1911, but the weight finally got to me, so I decided to switch weapons. Just shot the M&P today, and really enjoyed it, but coming from a 1911, that trigger has GOT to go.
nobody knows
07-06-11, 17:23
Hello everyone, I read through this tread looking for an answer to a question. I have small hand's and have an issue with the length of the standard trigger on the m&p 45c. Will this trigger help with this or make it worse. Because before this I was considering the Bowie Tactical LX trigger job.the problem with that is the wait time. Witch would be better for me in terms of usability? I'd really like for the fss kit to work for me as I like to help support companies like apex Tactical. Thanks for any input or opinions.
Joe
Hello everyone, I read through this tread looking for an answer to a question. I have small hand's and have an issue with the length of the standard trigger on the m&p 45c. Will this trigger help with this or make it worse. Because before this I was considering the Bowie Tactical LX trigger job.the problem with that is the wait time. Witch would be better for me in terms of usability? I'd really like for the fss kit to work for me as I like to help support companies like apex Tactical. Thanks for any input or opinions.
Joe
The FSS trigger sets the trigger break further forward with less take up so I dont think it would be a good fit for you. Best option may be Bowie or Burwell for their shorter trigger mod.
If caliber change isnt an issue you could consider the 9mm or 40 M&P as they have a slightly shorter grip from front to back making them more forgiving as far as trigger reach.
The FSS trigger sets the trigger break further forward with less take up so I dont think it would be a good fit for you.
Have you used one of these kits and looked at it side by side with a non-FSS kitted gun?
Because if you have, you would know that the FSS trigger starts back much further than the standard trigger face. I can put some calipers on mine later, but just from eye balling it, the FSS trigger face is about where the rear of the standard trigger is when completely forward. I would say its at least 3-5mm further back. This makes it have LESS trigger reach than a standard gun. When putting them side by side(and looking through a standard trigger gun) you can see the complete FSS trigger behind the standard trigger.
If you have small hands getting this kit on an MP9/40 with small back strap would make it EASIER to reach the trigger than with a standard trigger. The MP45, same thing, but since the frame is larger, it wont be quite as easy as with the 9/40 frame.
Have you used one of these kits and looked at it side by side with a non-FSS kitted gun?
Because if you have, you would know that the FSS trigger starts back much further than the standard trigger face. I can put some calipers on mine later, but just from eye balling it, the FSS trigger face is about where the rear of the standard trigger is when completely forward. I would say its at least 3-5mm further back. This makes it have LESS trigger reach than a standard gun. When putting them side by side(and looking through a standard trigger gun) you can see the complete FSS trigger behind the standard trigger.
If you have small hands getting this kit on an MP9/40 with small back strap would make it EASIER to reach the trigger than with a standard trigger. The MP45, same thing, but since the frame is larger, it wont be quite as easy as with the 9/40 frame.
Yes I have one....I went with it because I have large hands and didnt like how far back the break on the factory trigger was.
Yes I have one....I went with it because I have large hands and didnt like how far back the break on the factory trigger was.
I honestly dont think the break was changed ALL that much, however with the new trigger it starts SO much further back into the pre-travel(of the original trigger) that it basically acts that way.
I tried to get the pistols lined up as good as I could. If they look like they are off, I think its just the camera playing tricks.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v324/rjacobs1/IMAG0045.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v324/rjacobs1/IMAG0044.jpg
The FSS trigger starts very much so further back than the stock trigger thus making the kit work BETTER for people who have small hands and trouble reaching the stock trigger.
Skunk Pilot
07-09-11, 23:12
I installed mine last week. I polished up the trigger bar, striker and the Apex sear that came with it. I know I didn't polish the Apex USB since it seemed nice and smooth already. I went with the 3 lb option and also had to 1st get my hands on the newer sear block with the bigger plunger and spring. Someone else posted this (this is what I used so I knew what to polish): Burwell Trigger Job - M&P (http://www.burwellguns.com/misc/M&Ptriggerjob.pdf)
I went to the range this past Tues. the 5th and was very, very impressed. My friend brought along his SA 1911 .45 and my M&P had a better trigger than his. I absolutely love this trigger. I hope I can get him to buy a M&P now, he shot very very good with it. My cousin also went and was impressed by it, told him that he can get a M&P9 from JetGuns for $439 w-SH and a $20 FFL, plus S&W will give him $50 off for being in the military. Now he just has to buy the gun behind his wife's back and he's all set :haha:
My friend is ex-military, but with the Guards so don't know if he qualifies or not for the $50.
I did the Buckmark "sear flip" but put the gun together wrong so it probably had a 10 lb trigger pull and I couldn't' hit anything with it, so I just stopped shooting it, I was that bad with that bigger trigger pull. Went to friends house after and we took it apart and since it took many hours to try to put back together, something always fell out and was probably 3-4am and wasn't thinking and inversed the spring on the side for the trigger. So the moral of this story is, that after it was done right I really want to shoot the Buckmark again. Shot it good and expect to shoot it even better with the new trigger. The M&P is way easier to take apart and work on than the Buckmark URX.
A better trigger does make a difference in shooting the gun. I shot more rounds than I ever have out of a 9mm. My cousin who got there earlier rented a 92FS but he kept coming back to the M&P. My friend brought his 92FS and he also kept coming back to the M&P, oh sorry the "Apex M&P" :smile: I only shot one mag out of the 92FS, that was enough.
Now I think it's so good I should start to post in local gun forums, that they can come shoot my gun if they pay for my range fees ($16 w-tax) and give me two boxes of ammo to test it out. Ok I'll settle for one box. Yes I think it's that good.
There might be a couple of the bigger sear housing blocks available from a guy on MP-Pistol here (http://mp-pistol.com/boards/index.php?/topic/30459-wts-a-few-sw-sear-blocks/). I guess he is out of them now.
Awesome! Sounds good. Mine's in the mail right now, so it should be waiting for me when I return from vacation.
These are now in stock and we do offer installation services.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=APEX_FSS
C4
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-12-11, 16:05
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v324/rjacobs1/IMAG0044.jpg
Can you show us where the trigger breaks? Got a 1911 around to show the differences in trigger pull length?
My main issue with the M&P and even the DCAEK kit is that it breaks so far to the rear it feels like I'm hitting the webbing of my had with the trigger finger. I try to use the biggest rear strap to increase the length, but the flares on the side of that strap give me poor grip on the frame. I either need to shave the sides of the biggest strap, or add some more meat to the back strap of a thinner one to get the ergonomics that I want.
Why can't the trigger face be further forward on the FSS-T?
The trigger is further forward than it looks.
Look at the thickness of the trigger itself. It is well forward of where the standard trigger breaks with the Apex Sear.
The trigger is further forward than it looks.
Look at the thickness of the trigger itself. It is well forward of where the standard trigger breaks with the Apex Sear.
My only point with that picture was to disprove the guy that said this kit was a bad idea for a guy with small hands because the trigger was farther forward than the stock trigger, which it is not. I have not done any measurements with calipers to show exactly how much further back the FSS trigger starts out.
I installed the new package with the trigger, FSS, new striker block and spring and kept the original factory trigger spring.
My sear housing will not allow for the larger diameter sear spring and plunger, so I left in the sear spring and plunger from the Comp Trigger Kit upgrade.
Now I have a problem (M&P 9L with both 115 gr and 147 factory ammo). When I fire the pistol the round is ejected, the slide makes full travel to the rear and picks up a round from the mag and cycles the round all the way into battery, but there is a problem with the trigger. The trigger is not resetting and I have to pull back the slide about 1/4" to reset it and then I can fire the pistol. It is doing this every time and switch mags does not make a difference.
I don't know exactly how the slide interacts with the trigger mechanism to reset it, but it works correctly when I cycle the slide manually, but not when firing a round to cycle the slide. I'm sure someone out there with the appropriate training will know exactly what is causing this.
If I go with the original factor sear, sear spring and plunger, should this eliminate the problem or do I just need to send in my sear block and have it milled to accept the larger diameter sear spring and plunger and then I can use the new FSS without this issue?
Thanks in advance for any advice. I need this pistol to be up and running for the ARFCOM/RockCastle 3 Gun Pro AM or I will be forced to use my back up Glock 34.
It would also be great to be able to get the new Barstow barrel installed by the match as well. Every time I shoot this pistol at 25 yards I can't seem to group under 6-8" even with a rest and I think my form or something is wrong. Then I shoot a mag full of WWB 230 gr. through my HK USP Tactical 45 and realize that it's not my fault for the mediocre accuracy with the M&P9L.
Close the shepherds crook on your trigger bar slightly.
Give that a whirl and report back.
Are you using any aftermarket recoil springs or the stock spring?
Replace your sear spring if you have a spare (factory spring).
Close the shepherds crook on your trigger bar slightly. OK you got me on this one. I don't know what this is
Give that a whirl and report back.
Are you using any aftermarket recoil springs or the stock spring? Stock Spring
Replace your sear spring if you have a spare (factory spring).
I should have my factory spring around with all the original parts I took off when I installed the Comp Trigger kit. Thanks for the input. I'll give it a try and report back in 2 days
The ovoid portion of your trigger bar that sits underneath the sear.
This part of the trigger bar will cam your sear down to release the striker as the trigger is pressed.
Having the loop too open or too closed can lead to issues with the sear not moving properly which will result in the striker not being dropped.
I had the same issue with "dead triggers" after putting the FSS into my 9c. I had to play around with the trigger bar quite a bit before i got it perfect.
I would probably start by installing the kit as it was supplied. There is a great youtube video on it. Don't omit parts, use it as it was designed.
I would then contact Apex Tactical and see what they had to say before I started bending things.
I would probably start by installing the kit as it was supplied. There is a great youtube video on it. Don't omit parts, use it as it was designed.
I would then contact Apex Tactical and see what they had to say before I started bending things.
I've got a call into them. I am hopefull that having my sear block milled to accept the larger sear spring and plunger will fix this. I'll get back to everyone with an update.
I've got a call into them. I am hopefull that having my sear block milled to accept the larger sear spring and plunger will fix this. I'll get back to everyone with an update.
Hi,
If the trigger resets while dry firing, I suspect you are experiencing sear bounce. The larger sear spring should eliminate the problem.
-Randy
I installed the new package with the trigger, FSS, new striker block and spring and kept the original factory trigger spring.
My sear housing will not allow for the larger diameter sear spring and plunger, so I left in the sear spring and plunger from the Comp Trigger Kit upgrade.
Now I have a problem (M&P 9L with both 115 gr and 147 factory ammo). When I fire the pistol the round is ejected, the slide makes full travel to the rear and picks up a round from the mag and cycles the round all the way into battery, but there is a problem with the trigger. The trigger is not resetting and I have to pull back the slide about 1/4" to reset it and then I can fire the pistol. It is doing this every time and switch mags does not make a difference.
I don't know exactly how the slide interacts with the trigger mechanism to reset it, but it works correctly when I cycle the slide manually, but not when firing a round to cycle the slide. I'm sure someone out there with the appropriate training will know exactly what is causing this.
If I go with the original factor sear, sear spring and plunger, should this eliminate the problem or do I just need to send in my sear block and have it milled to accept the larger diameter sear spring and plunger and then I can use the new FSS without this issue?
Thanks in advance for any advice. I need this pistol to be up and running for the ARFCOM/RockCastle 3 Gun Pro AM or I will be forced to use my back up Glock 34.
It would also be great to be able to get the new Barstow barrel installed by the match as well. Every time I shoot this pistol at 25 yards I can't seem to group under 6-8" even with a rest and I think my form or something is wrong. Then I shoot a mag full of WWB 230 gr. through my HK USP Tactical 45 and realize that it's not my fault for the mediocre accuracy with the M&P9L.
Are you running the RAM?
C4
Are you running the RAM?
C4
I am, but I forgot to put in the new RAM spring (I think this was the additional part that came with the FSS Kit) when I installed the other parts of the kit.
I'm going to contact Apex and send in my sear block to have it milled to accept the larger sear spring and plunger since it sounds like this will fix the problem.
Thanks for the response Randy. When I watched the installation video it mentioned the possibility of sear bounce, but I was hoping that it woundn't be an issue for me. Now I know what sear bounce is and what a "dead trigger" is.
I am, but I forgot to put in the new RAM spring (I think this was the additional part that came with the FSS Kit) when I installed the other parts of the kit.
I'm going to contact Apex and send in my sear block to have it milled to accept the larger sear spring and plunger since it sounds like this will fix the problem.
Thanks for the response Randy. When I watched the installation video it mentioned the possibility of sear bounce, but I was hoping that it woundn't be an issue for me. Now I know what sear bounce is and what a "dead trigger" is.
If you do not change out the RAM spring, there is a good chance that is the cause of the dead trigger.
C4
If you do not change out the RAM spring, there is a good chance that is the cause of the dead trigger.
C4
Thanks Grant! I'll give this a try first.
After I put everything together I realized I forgot to put in the new RAM spring and I thought "How can this make any significant difference?". That's what happens when you have no idea what you are doing:smile:.
Thanks for the call and leaving the message Randy. If changing the RAM spring doesn't work, I'll send in the sear block housing.
Thanks Grant! I'll give this a try first.
After I put everything together I realized I forgot to put in the new RAM spring and I thought "How can this make any significant difference?". That's what happens when you have no idea what you are doing:smile:.
Thanks for the call and leaving the message Randy. If changing the RAM spring doesn't work, I'll send in the sear block housing.
You are welcome. Also make sure that the "ski slope" loop is closed (or close to it).
C4
You are welcome. Also make sure that the "ski slope" loop is closed (or close to it).
C4
Check! I'll take it to the range tomorrow during lunch and post an update.
Check! I'll take it to the range tomorrow during lunch and post an update.
Good luck.
C4
Good luck.
C4
Bad news. Still a dead trigger with the new RAM spring. Looks like I'm sending off my sear block housing for milling to accept the larger spring and plunger.
I REALLY hope this fixes problem.
I'll update again once I get it back from Apex Tactical. Fortunately the cost of have this done is VERY reasonable.
Bad news. Still a dead trigger with the new RAM spring. Looks like I'm sending off my sear block housing for milling to accept the larger spring and plunger.
I REALLY hope this fixes problem.
I'll update again once I get it back from Apex Tactical. Fortunately the cost of have this done is VERY reasonable.
Roger that. When I had a dead trigger, it was the RAM spring.
If you are getting a dead trigger EVERY TIME you pull the trigger, then I doubt that it is the plunger size. Most likely some issue with you trigger bar being bent or the loop not being closed.
The reason for the above theory is because my gun ran just fine with the small or large plunger.
C4
Roger that. When I had a dead trigger, it was the RAM spring.
If you are getting a dead trigger EVERY TIME you pull the trigger, then I doubt that it is the plunger size. Most likely some issue with you trigger bar being bent or the loop not being closed.
The reason for the above theory is because my gun ran just fine with the small or large plunger.
C4
Interesting and I really appreciate you sharing what you have learned. I don't remember applying any force to the trigger bar that would bend it. I will take it to my FFL and compare it to the trigger bar on the M&P9L rental that they have.
I really hope I can get this resolved in time for the ARFCOM/Rockcastle 3 Gun ProAm. I'm shipping the sear block housing to Apex tomorrow.
When I had a problem, Randy returned my call the next day and Lisa from Apex e-mailed me the same day. This is truly excellent customer service to help me resolve this issue!
Nevermiss,
The trigger bars often times will require tuning. They are not a drop in part when you start installing precision parts such as the FSS.
Nevermiss,
The trigger bars often times will require tuning. They are not a drop in part when you start installing precision parts such as the FSS.
Well this isn't good news. Part of what I've liked about all of the Apex tactical parts is that they were drop in and very straight forward to install by simply watching the video.
If milling the sear block to accept the larger spring/plunger doesn't work, then the trigger modification is far beyond my capability and comfort level.
This means I'm about $180 into this project and I would still have to send it to an M&P Armorer who is familiar with the Apex Tactical FSS/Trigger to get it working.
It's not a big deal and I will update after I get the sear block housing back. I just want to have my pistol reliable and running by the second week of August.
Well this isn't good news. Part of what I've liked about all of the Apex tactical parts is that they were drop in and very straight forward to install by simply watching the video.
If milling the sear block to accept the larger spring/plunger doesn't work, then the trigger modification is far beyond my capability and comfort level.
This means I'm about $180 into this project and I would still have to send it to an M&P Armorer who is familiar with the Apex Tactical FSS/Trigger to get it working.
It's not a big deal and I will update after I get the sear block housing back. I just want to have my pistol reliable and running by the second week of August.
You could try to pick up an extra trigger bar from brownells and experiment with it. They a pretty inexpensive. If you can't get it to work you can just drop in your original trigger bar and sear parts for the match. Either way, the sear block mod is a good idea.
Well this isn't good news. Part of what I've liked about all of the Apex tactical parts is that they were drop in and very straight forward to install by simply watching the video.
If milling the sear block to accept the larger spring/plunger doesn't work, then the trigger modification is far beyond my capability and comfort level.
This means I'm about $180 into this project and I would still have to send it to an M&P Armorer who is familiar with the Apex Tactical FSS/Trigger to get it working.
It's not a big deal and I will update after I get the sear block housing back. I just want to have my pistol reliable and running by the second week of August.
If it makes you feel better, I did not modify the trigger bar in my two M&P's.
C4
Well this isn't good news. Part of what I've liked about all of the Apex tactical parts is that they were drop in and very straight forward to install by simply watching the video.
If milling the sear block to accept the larger spring/plunger doesn't work, then the trigger modification is far beyond my capability and comfort level.
This means I'm about $180 into this project and I would still have to send it to an M&P Armorer who is familiar with the Apex Tactical FSS/Trigger to get it working.
It's not a big deal and I will update after I get the sear block housing back. I just want to have my pistol reliable and running by the second week of August.
Hi,
If you are using the comp kit, the sear spring is even lighter in return force which will exacerbate the problem of sear bounce, especially since the forward set sear has such a short overtravel/reset distance. You have about a 98% chance of eliminating the dead trigger entirely with the sear spring modification. I leave 2% out as an unknown as I cannot see the gun and it's tolerances.
-Randy
I dont care what anyone says, there is no such thing as a drop in aftermarket part for ANY Handgun.
Everything requires basic knowledge of how to fit parts to the system.
Even installing a damned connector in a Glock CAN require a little bit of tweaking.
We are pretty darned spoiled by the repeat-ability that Randy has provided us as well as the overall decent tolerances of a mass produced firearm, ie the M&P series.
If you dont understand the way the pistol works or how to trouble shoot it you should not be working on it, its really that simple. That is YOUR shortcoming, not the kits.
Hi,
If you are using the comp kit, the sear spring is even lighter in return force which will exacerbate the problem of sear bounce, especially since the forward set sear has such a short overtravel/reset distance. You have about a 98% chance of eliminating the dead trigger entirely with the sear spring modification. I leave 2% out as an unknown as I cannot see the gun and it's tolerances.
-Randy
Thanks Randy! I am continuing to learn more and I appreciate your willingness to share so this VERY relevant information. I am certain there are other enthusiasts installing your FSS/Trigger package who will appreciate you sharing your knowlege so we can learn how to trouble shoot these issues. This is especially helpful for your customers who do not have the experience or knowlege of many who frequent this forum.
I appreciate the fact the you frequent this thread and are willing to post helpful information! This is really above and beyond excellent customer service.
Magsz, There is no doubt about my shortcomings when it comes to understanding aspects of M&P pistol function. I had such great luck installing the Comp Kit (my first venture into pistolsmithing if you will), that I didn't twice about getting the FSS/Trigger kit. I guess we all have to learn somehow and I prefer to learn from other's mistakes as much as I can. I hope that enthusiasts who want to upgrade to the FSS/Trigger will read this thread and learn from my experience (or lack thereof).
Thanks Randy! I am continuing to learn more and I appreciate your willingness to share so this VERY relevant information. I am certain there are other enthusiasts installing your FSS/Trigger package who will appreciate you sharing your knowlege so we can learn how to trouble shoot these issues. This is especially helpful for your customers who do not have the experience or knowlege of many who frequent this forum.
I appreciate the fact the you frequent this thread and are willing to post helpful information! This is really above and beyond excellent customer service.
Magsz, There is no doubt about my shortcomings when it comes to understanding aspects of M&P pistol function. I had such great luck installing the Comp Kit (my first venture into pistolsmithing if you will), that I didn't twice about getting the FSS/Trigger kit. I guess we all have to learn somehow and I prefer to learn from other's mistakes as much as I can. I hope that enthusiasts who want to upgrade to the FSS/Trigger will read this thread and learn from my experience (or lack thereof).
How about you install the kit as it was supplied, verify you have a propery functioning weapon before combining it with parts which weren't supplied?
I don't get where the breakdown here is. You get the kit, with the larger spring, don't install it and have problems. Very basic troubleshooting would tell you to install that part.
Install the kit as it was supplied.
BP, You make a good point. I'm not sure if you've installed any of the other Apex kits or the FSS/Trigger kit. It's been a while since I watched the instrctional video but it IIRC, the instructions did not say that the larger spring needed to be installed. I apparently have a sear block housing that does not accommodate the larger diameter spring that comes with the kit so I COULD NOT install them:smile:.
I attempted to see if it would work without having to purchase a new sear block or have mine milled because Randy mentioned that it may not be an issue. Now I have learned that the issue of sear bounce is even more likely with the Comp Kit sear spring. Perhaps others with the older sear spring housing who have upgraded to the Comp Kit may be able to re-install the factory sear spring to avoid sear bounce and the resulting dead trigger. The newer sear block housing is also on backorder from Brownells.
As more people purchase the FSS, I'm sure there are others with the Comp Kit who will try to install the new spring and notice that it won't fit. I can now tell them that if you leave in the Comp Kit sear spring that I experienced a dead trigger after EVERY shot. If you have the older sear block, take a deep breath, realize that enjoying your new kit is going to be delayed and get a new sear block (if you can find it) or send yours to Apex.
Well I got my FSS-T kit and installed it while watching the video.
Dead trigger. The trigger just presses to the rear and returns, no sear engagement, nothing. I did the test at the end of the video where you press the bar to the right with the trigger depressed, and it snaps under the sear like it's supposed to.
The only thing was, I don't think my sear block will accept the new sear spring/plunger combo so some milling might be in order. Also I think my "shepherd's crook" needs tweaking, but I am unable to get it right.
SO, I reinstalled the OEM parts and STILL had a dead trigger. Big problem. I think this may have something to do with the "crook" at the end of the trigger bar, as well.
Moral of the story: This project may be out of your comfort zone/experience level if you aren't used to installing aftermarket parts that may require fitting to the gun. I am extremely meticulous about following directions and keeping track of small parts. Every step in the video was clear and made sense, but I still managed to screw it up. I'll just chalk it up to experience, and say that at least I learned a LOT about how the pistol is built, so it's not a total loss. I'm going to send the whole thing to Apex for an install.
Hi guys,
On some guns, the trigger loop may need to be altered slightly do that the ramp engages the sear cam sooner. Essentially, the individual gun may need more over travel. Scott and I will add another video addressing the adjustment. The location of the factory loop varies quite a bit, so once in a while the timing needs to be adjusted. Not difficult but it helps to see a video...
Randy
Randy, you should offer a bundle that includes a RAM with the FSS & Trigger.
I just installed my FSS & Trigger and the pre and overtravel is much improved. The reset isn't very tactile, so I'm hoping the RAM will bring that in line.
My M&P has the small sear spring, so I need to have my block milled. Hopefully when the Bar-Sto barrel is released I'll send the gun into Apex to have the barrel fitted and block milled. Should be a bad little pistol by then.
Interestingly, no issues with sear bounce or dead triggers. It's worth noting it was installed in a brand new unfired M&P 9L.
I installed the new trigger, striker block, forward sear, trigger return spring, plunger spring and S&W's new trigger bar (is red at the tip or marked with the letter "H" for those that don't know).
Details? Considering my M&P is dead and I am gonna replace a few things this might be of interest.
Details? Considering my M&P is dead and I am gonna replace a few things this might be of interest.
S&W has changed some sections of their trigger bar. New trigger bars can be ID'd by having red on them or a letter stamped into them.
C4
Are the new ones shipping from anywhere?
Are the new ones shipping from anywhere?
You mean do new M&P's have the latest GEN trigger bars?
C4
Just the trigger bar. Gotta make one of mine work again.
Just the trigger bar. Gotta make one of mine work again.
I have some, but think I am the only dealer in the country with them.
Not up on the website yet.
C4
I have some, but think I am the only dealer in the country with them.
Not up on the website yet.
C4
What does the redesigned bar do better/different?
What does the redesigned bar do better/different?
Improves reliability.
I am of the opinion though that if you have the new sear housing block (the one with th large sear plunger), you are good.
C4
I can't find one of those in stock anywhere...
I can't find one of those in stock anywhere...
One of what? Sear Housing Block?
C4
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-21-11, 12:48
Grant-
If I wanted a 5inch M&P in 9mm with a Safety and the FSST, am I still stuck buying a FS with a safety and a 5 inch model and then swapping grips? Would swaping out the 5inch sear block housing for a one with a safety work- if the sear block housings ever get sold again?
Or didn't APEX say they were going to make slide sometime in the future?
I use an X300 on my M&P, and if I'm going to add that length of the light, I figured I might as well get the barrel that long too.
Thanks
Grant-
If I wanted a 5inch M&P in 9mm with a Safety and the FSST, am I still stuck buying a FS with a safety and a 5 inch model and then swapping grips? Would swaping out the 5inch sear block housing for a one with a safety work- if the sear block housings ever get sold again?
Or didn't APEX say they were going to make slide sometime in the future?
I use an X300 on my M&P, and if I'm going to add that length of the light, I figured I might as well get the barrel that long too.
Thanks
What matters is if the frame has the cut outs for a TS. At this point, I don't think they do.
C4
What matters is if the frame has the cut outs for a TS. At this point, I don't think they do.
C4
If you have one with the cutouts, where can you get the safety parts?
VirginiaTactical
07-21-11, 16:45
Randy, you should offer a bundle that includes a RAM with the FSS & Trigger.
I just installed my FSS & Trigger and the pre and overtravel is much improved. The reset isn't very tactile, so I'm hoping the RAM will bring that in line.
My M&P has the small sear spring, so I need to have my block milled. Hopefully when the Bar-Sto barrel is released I'll send the gun into Apex to have the barrel fitted and block milled. Should be a bad little pistol by then.
Interestingly, no issues with sear bounce or dead triggers. It's worth noting it was installed in a brand new unfired M&P 9L.
I shot around 1,000 rounds or more with my M&P9L with the smaller sear & FSS and did not have any dead triggers. This past weekend I was teaching a class and had too many dead triggers to count. I backordered a new sear assembly from brownells. They said I would get the part sometime in August. I wish I knew someone that had the new ones for sale now.... using my back up 9L until the parts get here. Maybe you will have some dead triggers after a couple hundred rounds? I didn't think it would happen to me until it just did in the middle of a demo ... in front of 8 students... in the 1st hour of my class lol. Glad I had a backup!
Well, my plan for the short term is to use it as it is. Ideally, I can get another sear block with the proper spring.
My long term plan is that when Apex and Bar-Sto release the gunsmith fit barrel, send the gun into Apex to have the barrel fitted and the sear block milled if I haven't bought another sear block by then.
If you have one with the cutouts, where can you get the safety parts?
Getting a sear housing block that is setup for TS is easy. Getting the internal parts for the block and the TS's themselves is the hard part.
We have some of the parts, but not the TS's and internals for the block and to my knowledge none of these parts are sold.
C4
I shot around 1,000 rounds or more with my M&P9L with the smaller sear & FSS and did not have any dead triggers. This past weekend I was teaching a class and had too many dead triggers to count. I backordered a new sear assembly from brownells. They said I would get the part sometime in August. I wish I knew someone that had the new ones for sale now.... using my back up 9L until the parts get here. Maybe you will have some dead triggers after a couple hundred rounds? I didn't think it would happen to me until it just did in the middle of a demo ... in front of 8 students... in the 1st hour of my class lol. Glad I had a backup!
We have them in stock.
C4
I backordered a new sear assembly from brownells. They said I would get the part sometime in August.
Brownell's now shows them in stock you may get it before August.
If you need one before I have several Apex modified versions and can loan you one. PM me I'm local to you.
VirginiaTactical
07-21-11, 21:13
Brownell's now shows them in stock you may get it before August.
If you need one before I have several Apex modified versions and can loan you one. PM me I'm local to you.
Thanks for the intel! I am teaching a course tomorrow, then attending a course from July 26-August 26. I got to use duty weapons for the attending course though (Glock 19 and other stuff). Very cool that they have them in stock. I better get my credit card run today or tomorrow!
Thanks for offering to loan me one, I would take you up on the offer but I'll be away until my parts come in!
One of what? Sear Housing Block?
C4
Yes, sear housing block with the 1/8" spring.
Getting a sear housing block that is setup for TS is easy. Getting the internal parts for the block and the TS's themselves is the hard part.
We have some of the parts, but not the TS's and internals for the block and to my knowledge none of these parts are sold.
C4
Getting a safety lever is the easy part, it's those two internal parts, the detent & spring, that have been a pain in the rear! Please keep me in mind if you ever run across an extra set or a takeoff set.
For those interested, here are the latest parts for the M&P to include the trigger bar and sear housing block (for both 9mm/40 and 45).
Trigger bar: http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=39128
9mm/40 Sear Housing Block: http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=27764
45 Sear Housing Block: http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=39220
C4
Is that 9mm sear housing block compatible with a thumb safety?
Is that 9mm sear housing block compatible with a thumb safety?
I don't think so, but Grant would know better than I.
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-25-11, 18:06
Is that 9mm sear housing block compatible with a thumb safety?
I don't think so, but Grant would know better than I.
Yes he does, last page:
Getting a sear housing block that is setup for TS is easy. Getting the internal parts for the block and the TS's themselves is the hard part.
We have some of the parts, but not the TS's and internals for the block and to my knowledge none of these parts are sold.
C4
Grant, there seems to be a pretty good market for whole TS sear blocks out there. Do you think you could talk to SW about the possibility of getting these? The Frame could just be dremmeled for the TS, right?
Yes he does, last page:
Grant, there seems to be a pretty good market for whole TS sear blocks out there. Do you think you could talk to SW about the possibility of getting these? The Frame could just be dremmeled for the TS, right?
Colddeadhand, I'm not exactly sure what you mean by that, so I will be more clear. The picture on Grant's site of the 9/40 sear block looks very much like the non-safety model. I have a 9 FS with the most recent sear block variant that will accept a safety and it looks very different. In actuality, mine looks very much like the 45 sear block pictured in Grant's last link. However, I cannot say that I could identify every variant S&W has ever produced, so I will defer to Grant as the authority on the matter.
Correction, at second glance, it is an internal lock sear block, so it is not a safety compatible.
Is that 9mm sear housing block compatible with a thumb safety?
No.
C4
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v340/roguedemon/IMG_0560.jpg
Six shots in six seconds offhand at 7 yards, indoor range. Ammo was 115gr Federal. Amazing trigger, reset when combined with the Apex RAM is just sick. I love it.
Now for that Bar-Sto barrel...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v340/roguedemon/IMG_0560.jpg
Six shots in six seconds offhand at 7 yards, indoor range. Ammo was 115gr Federal. Amazing trigger, reset when combined with the Apex RAM is just sick. I love it.
Now for that Bar-Sto barrel...
Judging by that group, you don't need the Bar Sto.
Needs and wants.
Where match barrels come into their own is at 25 yards and beyond. I would tell anyone if they couldn't shoot a mouse hole at 7 yards they have other things to work on before buying a match barrel. Any quality handgun is capable of such groups, for the most part, but where the trigger makes a huge difference is in the amount of time you can fire that group in.
But, that was my first time at the range with my M&P and second time ever shooting a M&P. The previous time was a rental full size when I was deciding on what I wanted. The Apex FSS & Trigger really sets the platform apart.
It's subjective, but I also think the recoil is more mild with the 9L as opposed to the full size.
True. Its nice to know, you can make the shot at 25 yards, if you need to.
My M&P is going to be my everything gun. My duty gun is limited by policy, not much I can do with that. But, I want a very accurate high capacity gun with a great trigger and a light rail.
Something I wouldn't be a hinderence competing with and stout enough for a class or two.
I'm not a fan of the polymer hi-cap 1911s, which leaves Caspian as making a high cap from in carbon steel with a light rail...for a tick more than an M&P.
One I outgrow the M&P, i'll revisit the hi-cap 1911 world. But who knows what will be out by then.
Grant, have you had a chance to try out the new trigger bar with the FSS? What has been changed on the trigger bar to improve reliability?
I finally got out to try out my FSS. In short, I love this trigger. I've been shooting Apex sears for a couple of years now and I'm surprised how much more I like the FSS. Only had time for 200 rounds for function check, no issues to report. My only problem is getting reacclimated to the different pull when I switch over to my 9c with DCAEK. Excellent work Apex!
My modified sear block is in the mail from Apex. I'll post again once I have chance to install and check the trigger function.
BTW, I finally got a custom 2011 9mm 6" pistol after about a 5 month wait. I've always considered myself a relatively decent pistol shot when it comes to slow fire for accuracy, but after shooting this pistol, I realize that I am better than I thought. I've just been shooting pistols my whole life with mediocre accuracy (except for my HK 45 USP Tactical).
I will definitely be sending my M&P9L to Apex to have the Barstow barrel fitted once they are available. I think the comment by bp7178 about accuracy and the trigger beyond 25 yards is spot on in my experience.
Grant, have you had a chance to try out the new trigger bar with the FSS? What has been changed on the trigger bar to improve reliability?
That is what I am running. No issues. I have also installed this new trigger bar and FSS in about 5 guns. No issues with those either.
The angle and height of the part that interfaces with the striker block has been changed.
C4
That is what I am running. No issues. I have also installed this new trigger bar and FSS in about 5 guns. No issues with those either.
The angle and height of the part that interfaces with the striker block has been changed.
C4
Thanks Grant. That is interesting, considering that the FSS comes with a new geometry striker block to ensure proper deactivation by the trigger bar. I can see now why a higher post on the trigger bar would help improve reliability, especially with aftermarket parts. Though I doubt S&W did it solely for the aftermarket.
Any change to the part that contacts the sear?
That is what I am running. No issues. I have also installed this new trigger bar and FSS in about 5 guns. No issues with those either.
The angle and height of the part that interfaces with the striker block has been changed.
C4
Grant - my striker block and FSS is on the way from back from Randy too. Do you think there is enough of a difference in the new trigger bar to make it worth changing it out while I have it apart or just stick with the original one? Also, is the new bar the same for both the 9mm and .45?
Thanks:)
Hmmmmmm.......Thanks Grant. I just placed an order for the new trigger bar with you today. I appreciate the quick feedback!
That is what I am running. No issues. I have also installed this new trigger bar and FSS in about 5 guns. No issues with those either.
The angle and height of the part that interfaces with the striker block has been changed.
C4
I just got my new version trigger bar and sear block from Grant today, and got the parts installed.
Some background...
I was running a stock trigger bar, small spring sear block, RAM, and FSS & trigger kit.
At first, I used the small spring with the RAM that came with the FSS. It only slightly changed the reset. I installed the spring the RAM came with, which is much stronger. Now the reset was where I wanted it, but every so often, I would get a dead trigger. I slightly bent the arch of the trigger bar towards the side of the gun the trigger bar rests against. To describe it further, as it was, the loop of the trigger bar was flush with the sear. I used a flat head screwdriver to slightly pry the arch towards the trigger bar. The arch was now about 2/3rds(ish) under the sear. Gun worked great.
to further explain, field strip the gun, pull the trigger to the rear and hold it. With your finger, pull the trigger bar towards the frame just to where it allows the sear to reset. There should, or it seems to me, be a slight bit of travel past this point. When the arch of my trigger bar was flush with the sear, there wasn't enough give and the sear wouldn't reset. With a slight tweak of the arch, you can add overtravel for lack of a better work to this movement of the trigger bar.
Not wanting to leave well enough alone, I installed the large spring sear block and new trigger bar. Going to the large spring sear block did add some weight to the trigger pull. I actually like it a bit better, it feels more crisp.
The trigger bar functioned perfectly in its stock form and required no tweaking. From what I can tell, the new trigger bar has a slightly bigger or steeper arch. This did change the dynamic of my trigger pull.
The trigger feels less mushy now during pre-travel. It almost feels like a two-stage. Slight even and smooth pre-travel, feel the stop where the arch hits the sear, and a slight bit more pressure discharges the weapon. On reset, if you let the trigger forward until it resets, you are right on the point again where just a slight bit of pressure discharges the weapon. Going fast, you never notice it.
For the cost involved, I would recommend buying the new trigger bar if you have a FSS. I liked the trigger pull of the FSS before, I really like it now. Amazing.
I just got my new version trigger bar and sear block from Grant today, and got the parts installed.
Some background...
I was running a stock trigger bar, small spring sear block, RAM, and FSS & trigger kit.
At first, I used the small spring with the RAM that came with the FSS. It only slightly changed the reset. I installed the spring the RAM came with, which is much stronger. Now the reset was where I wanted it, but every so often, I would get a dead trigger. I slightly bent the arch of the trigger bar towards the side of the gun the trigger bar rests against. To describe it further, as it was, the loop of the trigger bar was flush with the sear. I used a flat head screwdriver to slightly pry the arch towards the trigger bar. The arch was now about 2/3rds(ish) under the sear. Gun worked great.
to further explain, field strip the gun, pull the trigger to the rear and hold it. With your finger, pull the trigger bar towards the frame just to where it allows the sear to reset. There should, or it seems to me, be a slight bit of travel past this point. When the arch of my trigger bar was flush with the sear, there wasn't enough give and the sear wouldn't reset. With a slight tweak of the arch, you can add overtravel for lack of a better work to this movement of the trigger bar.
Not wanting to leave well enough alone, I installed the large spring sear block and new trigger bar. Going to the large spring sear block did add some weight to the trigger pull. I actually like it a bit better, it feels more crisp.
The trigger bar functioned perfectly in its stock form and required no tweaking. From what I can tell, the new trigger bar has a slightly bigger or steeper arch. This did change the dynamic of my trigger pull.
The trigger feels less mushy now during pre-travel. It almost feels like a two-stage. Slight even and smooth pre-travel, feel the stop where the arch hits the sear, and a slight bit more pressure discharges the weapon. On reset, if you let the trigger forward until it resets, you are right on the point again where just a slight bit of pressure discharges the weapon. Going fast, you never notice it.
For the cost involved, I would recommend buying the new trigger bar if you have a FSS. I liked the trigger pull of the FSS before, I really like it now. Amazing.
So you had to make modifications, so as not to get a dead trigger with the FSS?
Only when used with the standard RAM spring. It functioned as it should w/o the RAM and with the light RAM spring. The new version trigger bar functioned with the heavy RAM spring w/o any tweaking.
Running the RAM with the light spring included with the FSS kit it barely better than not using the RAM. With the heavy (standard) RAM spring, the reset is much improved.
The only benefit I see to running the RAM with the light spring is the failsafe it provides if your trigger spring should break. Of course, you get this benefit plus a better reset with the standard RAM spring.
I consider this important, as I did manage to break the trigger spring of a Beretta. Granted they are of different design than the M&P spring, but the M&P is dead in the water with a broken trigger spring. With the RAM a spring breakage would be less than ideal, but you wouldn't have to necessarily resort to using your M&P as a club.
I appreciate your reply. I plan on ordering an M&P9 with the FSS & Ram and i don't want to deal with a pistol that won't fire. I need to know that the FSS with the RAM will be reliable. Which RAM spring should be used with the FSS to avoid "dead trigger"?
This dead trigger stuff is really getting old.
I think Randy Lee of Apex Tactical would tell you to use the light spring.
I used the heavy spring, and had to make a tweak to get it to work.
I had to make no changes to get the FSS and RAM with the heavy spring to work when using the new trigger bar.
I think the dead trigger problem are partially related to the trigger bar, and by partial I mean like 90%.
The M&P isn't splitting atoms to fire a round off. If you have any basic mechanical ability you can look at the parts and see how they should function. I would suggest studying your stock pistol first, so you have an idea of what's doing. Take the slide off and minuplate the trigger, including reset. Know what's going on before you start attempting to add parts and you will be good to go.
I wanted to add something. With my dead trigger, I was taking the gun and the FSS kit out of its suggested use. The instructions say to use the light spring and I deliberately disobeyed this. So I don't fault the FSS, RAM etc.
But, like I said, it was a really easy fix. Stupid easy.
But using the RAM with the light spring is almost like not having the RAM at all. So is the RAM with the reliable [light] spring, worth having?
I appreciate your reply. I plan on ordering an M&P9 with the FSS & Ram and i don't want to deal with a pistol that won't fire. I need to know that the FSS with the RAM will be reliable. Which RAM spring should be used with the FSS to avoid "dead trigger"?
IF running a RAM, you use the INCLUDED lighter RAM spring.
No dead trigger.
C4
But using the RAM with the light spring is almost like not having the RAM at all. So is the RAM with the reliable [light] spring, worth having?
No. It just lightens the reset slightly AND will vary from gun to gun.
C4
But using the RAM with the light spring is almost like not having the RAM at all. So is the RAM with the reliable [light] spring, worth having?
I wasn't overly impressed with the RAM and light spring.
Heavy RAM spring....awesome. But, you may have to tweak your trigger bar.
If it's worth it is up to you.
IF running a RAM, you use the INCLUDED lighter RAM spring.
No dead trigger.
C4
Exactly. If you start fooling around with springs and don't follow the advice given by Apex, don't complain or blame the gun. Experiment all you like, but understand that Apex designed the FSS to be used with the springs that it is shipped with.
No. It just lightens the reset slightly AND will vary from gun to gun.
C4
So is the RAM more pronounced and tactile with the DCAEK, as opposed to when its installed with the FSS?
Yes.
The reason is when the RAM is installed with the lighter RAM spring included with the FSS kit, you will loose some of that function. It's not a reflection of the FSS, just the lighter RAM spring that comes with the FSS kit.
You can use the standard RAM spring, just be prepared to diagnose and troubleshoot it should the need arise.
Yes.
The reason is when the RAM is installed with the lighter RAM spring included with the FSS kit, you will loose some of that function. It's not a reflection of the FSS, just the lighter RAM spring that comes with the FSS kit.
You can use the standard RAM spring, just be prepared to diagnose and troubleshoot it should the need arise.
So the heavy RAM spring is used when combined with the DCAEK?
So is the RAM more pronounced and tactile with the DCAEK, as opposed to when its installed with the FSS?
Yes as you use the stiffer spring.
Remember that every gun is different and you MAY be able to use the stiffer RAM spring.
In my personal gun though, I had to go with the lighter spring.
Once you shoot the gun enough, you LEARN where the trigger resets (no device needed). I learned to shoot my M&P (well) with no trigger reset (none). So it can be done, just need to shoot it.
C4
I saw a video on youtube of the FSS reset. Its so short that i don't think a RAM would really be needed. It is a crazy short reset. It really is like a 1911.
So the heavy RAM spring is used when combined with the DCAEK?
It can be. If you have an M&P with a TS though, you cannot use the RAM at all.
C4
Grant,
What is a TS?
Thumb Safety.
C4
I could see wanting an M&P with a thumb safety with the FSS installed, but otherwise no.
I love the M&P with the FSS, but it's only as close to a 1911 that you can get in a modern production polymer gun. I think the 1911 still has a better trigger, but the operation between a 1911 and a M&P are pretty different.
I went with the M&P over putting together a 1911 because to get a 1911 with the features I wanted, it would have cost me an arm and a leg.
It would be cool to have the same kind of aluminum trigger shoe, that comes with the FSS, also come with the DCAEK.
It's not a shoe, its a replacement trigger.
IIRC, Randy of Apex was saying they are working on a FSS kit that would be closer to the DCAEK, in terms of pull weight etc, but would use the FSS aluminum trigger.
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-03-11, 12:23
I'd like to see what a flatter trigger face would do, ala the newer G-trigger designs.
It's not a shoe, its a replacement trigger.
IIRC, Randy of Apex was saying they are working on a FSS kit that would be closer to the DCAEK, in terms of pull weight etc, but would use the FSS aluminum trigger.
The FSS ships with "carry" weight springs. There was so much demand for a heavier set up, that they decided to roll them out from the start with heavier springs. I think you can get even heavier than the stock weight of ~4.5 lbs by using a stronger sear spring.
The FSS ships with "carry" weight springs. There was so much demand for a heavier set up, that they decided to roll them out from the start with heavier springs. I think you can get even heavier than the stock weight of ~4.5 lbs by using a stronger sear spring.
Hi all,
We are also working on new springs for the FSS specifically for carry. Trigger pull weight can vary from gun to gun due to the angle of the trigger loop. We included a sear spring that is stronger than our DCAEK spring to compensate for the better mechanical leverage of the forward set sear. While some guns will yield the 4.5-5 lb weight, there are some that will be below 4 as a result of a shallower slope on the loop. I would like to see the carry version at a comfortable 5-5.5 lb range.
-Randy
Hi all,
We are also working on new springs for the FSS specifically for carry. Trigger pull weight can vary from gun to gun due to the angle of the trigger loop. We included a sear spring that is stronger than our DCAEK spring to compensate for the better mechanical leverage of the forward set sear. While some guns will yield the 4.5-5 lb weight, there are some that will be below 4 as a result of a shallower slope on the loop. I would like to see the carry version at a comfortable 5-5.5 lb range.
-Randy
When will the carry version be available?
When will the carry version be available?
As soon as the new springs arrive and are confirmed. I expect they should be available sometime in September.
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-03-11, 19:13
Randy,
Glad to hear that the TS RAM is on the plan.
If someone wanted a faux-1911 with the FSS, TS, RAM and a 5in upgraded barrel- What could you do? I didn't want to go thru the buying a FS with TS and a 5in without, and swaping slides (and having an extra mongrel gun).
I'm thinking that if you have to tweak each gun, you might offer complete guns? Can you get (or make) 5 inch slides and offer an complete upgrade?
Hi all,
We are also working on new springs for the FSS specifically for carry. Trigger pull weight can vary from gun to gun due to the angle of the trigger loop. We included a sear spring that is stronger than our DCAEK spring to compensate for the better mechanical leverage of the forward set sear. While some guns will yield the 4.5-5 lb weight, there are some that will be below 4 as a result of a shallower slope on the loop. I would like to see the carry version at a comfortable 5-5.5 lb range.
-Randy
That is something I noticed when going to the steeper red (new style) trigger bar. I don't have a trigger pull scale, but between the .125" sear spring and the trigger bar, I picked up some weight in the trigger pull.
Update to my previous problems. I sent the sear block to Apex and in about a week, I had the modification to accept the larger sear spring/plunger.
Installed and all is GREAT. The FSS/Trigger is what a trigger should be.
Ran 124 gr. and 147 gr. flawlessly.
I also compared it to my new custom 2011 6" 9mm and I was surprised to see less muzzle flip and quicker sight reacquisition with the M&P9L. You can get a great limited gun for the price of custom sights, extended magwell and magazine extensions and the Apex FSS/Trigger for a great value compared to $3700 for a custom 2011 with 4 custom tuned mags.
The 2011 will shoot circles around the M&P9L for accuracy, but for action pistol sports, I think the M&P with the Apex FSS/Trigger is the value to be found!
Thanks Randy for the quick turnaround on the sear spring housing. Just waiting for the BarStow barrels now:)
The 2011 will shoot circles around the M&P9L for accuracy, but for action pistol sports, I think the M&P with the Apex FSS/Trigger is the value to be found!
If the Bar-Sto gunsmith fit barrel is all its cracked up to be that line may get even more blurry.
Randy,
Any progress on the safety compatible RAM?
If the Bar-Sto gunsmith fit barrel is all its cracked up to be that line may get even more blurry.
That is exactly what I am thinking, so I plan to give it a whirl and compare the two.
I can shoot a nice little mouse hole at 7 yards with the stock barrel. I'm hoping with the Bar-Sto the gun would be mechanically capable of holding inside the 10x ring of a B-27 at 50 yards.
With the stock barrel, groups get pretty big (relatively) at 25 yards.
One thing the FSS did for me was drastically reduce my times. With the stock trigger the gun was just as accurate, but it was too long and sloppy to shoot said mouse hole quickly.
I can shoot a nice little mouse hole at 7 yards with the stock barrel. I'm hoping with the Bar-Sto the gun would be mechanically capable of holding inside the 10x ring of a B-27 at 50 yards.
With the stock barrel, groups get pretty big (relatively) at 25 yards.One thing the FSS did for me was drastically reduce my times. With the stock trigger the gun was just as accurate, but it was too long and sloppy to shoot said mouse hole quickly.
GREAT point. Anything can do one hole at 7 yds. That is all shootER. This should never be mentioned as an accuracy benchmark. Nor 10 yds.
Definatley. Any quality semi auto pistol should be capable of shooting a ragged hole at 7 yards. I think for pistols, 25 yards is the accuracy benchmark, much as 100 yards is for a rifle. The hard part in shooting, pistols especially, is pulling the trigger while maintaining alignment. The FSS makes this much easier and allows you to go much faster, as long as you can manage recoil, which gets into fundamentals.
The first pistol I actually had structured training with was my issue 92D, with it's monstrously long trigger pull. I've feel that being able to shoot nice groups and being able to control that trigger through it's long pull has really helped me on other systems whereas the trigger is much better, ie 1911 and M&P with the FSS.
I've heard through numerous sources the M&P 9mm does better with +P loads at 25 yards and beyond. That is something I've been meaning to try out. The tempo of fire in most competition pistol shooting slows at those ranges, so I don't feel that increased recoil would be an issue.
The test barrel will hold 3" off sandbags @ 50yds.
If I can get time to run it in the ransom, 2" is a reasonable expectation.
-Randy
Perfect.
Now the only question is when... ;)
I have had two range sessions with a Randy Lee installed Apex FSS trigger in an M&P 9 Pro. All I can say is that it is far and away the best non-1911 trigger I have ever shot on a handgun. Times on known drills are personal bests, and by a significant amount. The FSS trigger seems as much better than the Apex DC trigger, as the DC is better than a stock M&P trigger.
I have had two range sessions with a Randy Lee installed Apex FSS trigger in an M&P 9 Pro. All I can say is that it is far and away the best non-1911 trigger I have ever shot on a handgun. Times on known drills are personal bests, and by a significant amount. The FSS trigger seems as much better than the Apex DC trigger, as the DC is better than a stock M&P trigger.
Hi and thanks!
If you would like to see Smith offer a production M&P with the FSS as a factory option, please send them an email!
-Randy
Bolt_Overide
08-23-11, 18:54
I recently installed one of these in my M&P 45 fullsize. Ive got about 500 rounds through it and I gotta say I am well impressed with it.
Ive never encountered a weapon with such a sweet trigger outside of a 1911.
I would be interested in a "carry" version, with a heavier pull, a bit more pre travel, slightly longer reset and with the RAM having the same tactile feel, thats experienced with the DCAEK.
willowofwisp
08-23-11, 22:50
I just ordered the kit for my m&p 9c with a ts, can't wait to give it a try.
I would be interested in a "carry" version, with a heavier pull, a bit more pre travel, slightly longer reset and with the RAM having the same tactile feel, thats experienced with the DCAEK.
Those trigger characteristics are anathema to what the FSS is...at least in regard to travel and reset. You're also asking for features that very few shooters find desirable.
I would be interested in a "carry" version, with a heavier pull, a bit more pre travel, slightly longer reset and with the RAM having the same tactile feel, thats experienced with the DCAEK.
I think there is that variant -- Apex calls it the DCAEK!
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