View Full Version : Want to learn about the S&W 4506.
My local Cabelas got in a small batch of Smith and Wesson 4506 handguns from some correctional facility (at least that's what the counter guy told me). I was hoping someone here could tell me a bit more about them and whether or not they are a good buy. Plus I wanted to know if there is a good source for mags and mag parts for them. While I'm not sure I need one they look like a nice handgun and I know a few people here seemed to really like them. They looked to be in decent shape and cost about $440. Good buy?
The S&W 4506/4566 was the second LE duty pistol I carried. They are generally a reliable and accurate DA/SA .45 ACP duty handgun. S&W has parts and magazines available. The downside is that they are heavy, complex, hard to service compared to modern designs, and have a DA/SA trigger rather than a consistent trigger like a Glock, M&P, 1911, etc... $440 is a bit on the high side for pricing, as I have seen quite a few recently for $350-400.
What Doc said. At the time they were released in the late 80's/early 90's, they were a very viable duty and defensive piece.
But, they are also large, complex (internally) pistols.
Buck, who also has carried them on duty, refers to it as his "Dragoon Pistol". :cool:
Thanks for the advice. I'm not sure I want one if the price is high. Plus I found a local store carrying a west german marked sig p220 in 45 acp for $465. It felt a lot better in the hand compared to the 4506. Now I need to brush up on sigs.
Thanks for the advice. I'm not sure I want one if the price is high. Plus I found a local store carrying a west german marked sig p220 in 45 acp for $465. It felt a lot better in the hand compared to the 4506. Now I need to brush up on sigs.
My advice would be to shoot the 220 before you buy one. I'm a huge fan of the P225, P226 and P228 in 9mm. In fact I think they're some of the best pistols on the market, but I've a shot a 220 .45 a few times and didn't much like it. You'll get varying opinions on this, but I didn't like the recoil impulse that it had. Besides the P220 I've shot the HK, USP,M&P, Glock SF and various 1911s. All of which I liked better. This coming from a Sig fan. You might think differently, but I would rent one and shoot it better buying.
I also carried a 4506-1 on duty for a number of years and now it has a place of honor in my safe. Mine is very accurate and perfectly reliable. Yes they are heavy but because of that they have very little felt recoil or muzzle flip. I don't think the internals are that complicated and in over 15,000 rounds mine shows very little if any internal wear and has never had a parts breakage. The 3rd Gen Smiths, especially the .45's, are some of the most under appreciated guns on the market today.
While I like the P226/P228, I would take a 4506/4566 over a P220 any day of the week. The P220 is the worst of the classic Sig's. We had the option of the P220 or 4566--I purchased a P220; after 6 months of trying the P220 I gave up and switched over to the 4566...
DocGKR, what specifically did/do you not like about the P220?
Try these previously posted comments from LE firearms unit personnel for size:
"My PD issues SIG pistols; P-220s in .45, the 226, 228,and 239 in 9MM. The dept split is about 35% .45ACP and 65% 9MM. I have been the lead full-time firearms instructor/armorer for the past 12 years. As a LEO,I carried my Colt Govt or Commander from 78-90, switched to P-220 from 90-93, and carried a P-228 from then to present. With all that in mind, here are a few of my observations:
1. The P-220 is probably the most accurate service pistol right out of the box.
2. The P-220 is much more finicky about duty ammo than any of the SIG 9MMs. Winchester RA45T work just fine.
3. I see 10 times more parts break in P-220s than any of the SIG 9MMs. The 9MMs are just much more reliable. That's the reason I have carried one as a trainer and as a SWAT officer.
4. P-220 magazines have experienced several changes. The early "small zipper seam" mags had poor top welds and were prone to splitting. We replaced all of those with the later "trapezoidal seam" mags and have not split and of those. Heavily used mags may develope small cracks from the rear feed rail cut, causing the mag lips to lose a certain amount of tension. We have not seen very many of these but they do occur and the mag should be replaced. (the SIG 8 rounders are trash, stay away) The newest stainless, made by Mec-Gar for SIG, seem to work alright but we have only been using them for about 3 years.
5. Early P-220s, without the hammer reset spring, were surplused out as a safety hazard, relating to the decocking lever vs thumb relax issue.
6. All of our SIG are surplused out after 10 years of in inventory. This is done primarily due to the constant changes made to SIG pistols by SIG and the failure of SIG to communicate these changes to their SIG certified armorers.
Overall, SIGs are pretty darn good service pistols for LE use, but the 9MMs will prove to be much more reliable and durable than the P-220 .45. I would not use a P-220 .45 in any demanding military role which required the pistol to be fired ALOT. If you are going to fire this P-220 pistol ALOT then you'll need spare roll pins, trigger bar springs, trigger bars, slide catch springs, locking pieces, trigger pivot pins, and hammer reset springs. Or, you could just carry a P-226 or P-228 in 9MM, know that your pistol will work,pay attention to shot placement, and have a wonderful life."
or how about this:
"I was/am a factory trained Sig armorer and worked at an agency where we issued the p226 and p220. I did most of the preventative maintenance on the guns, they came in once a year. At about 3-5K rounds we began to notice the P220s were having more parts break including trigger bars,and reset springs. A few cracked locking pieces and the roll pins seemed to walk out regardless of how and who put them in the pistols. Magazines fed and functioned fine however each different style had problems the best were the later Mec-Gar units but they did sometimes crack at the rear edge. The P226 pistols just kept on going mine has over 53,000 though it with just changing the springs. A frequent p220 problem was the trigger return spring coming off during recoil forcing you to reset the trigger by hand each time you pulled it. This could be a fatal problem in a lethal force encounter and it happened enough that some shooters were pretty good at finishing the course of fire with a broken or missing spring on the trigger return. For concealed carry or as a police issue sidearm with a rigorous maintenance program The P220 is a very accurate handy platform. You pay the price for the alloy frame with more battering to the parts. We had to replace the frame on a SWAT 220 with Surfire attached due to cracks. SWAT later switched to the H&K USP45 and did not have any parts breakage but did get some problem magazines that were eventually sorted out to be the wrong lot number for our pistols.(the lot we received was slated for destruction but was shipped instead) I wonder if the good mags were thrashed... And yes Sig is bad about getting updates to armorers thats why they want you to go back to school every few years they do want to make money too. "
Here is another one:
"I have been using SIG pistols both professionally and personally for about 17 years now. Unfortunately, this will soon not be the case for reasons I will go into below. Initial platform was the SIG P226 in 9mm (which I have retained, and has over 16 years use with the only hiccups being some bad reloads). A few years ago when I transitioned from the military to law enforcement I switched to the P220 in .45. Doc and numerous others have pointed out the durability issues of this pistol in the past on this forum - with the general consensus being that as a regular sidearm it was sufficient (not a 1911, but some departments don't allow a choice in carry, so we do what we must); but that it certainly was not capable of standing up to the 100k round plus totals some 1911's have documented. I generally shoot 200-300 rounds a month, with an extra 300-500 round day every six months during qualifications and other training - so annual total (depending on other commitments) tends to be 2500 - 3000 rounds we'll call it. Not as much as the SWAT operators or some military units, but more than the average officer that I survey. Basically on par with someone who likes to shoot & wants to continue improving.
This durability assesment generally matched my personal experience - my initial P220 was issued to me after use by a previous officer; I personally documented approximately 3000 rounds through it with no issues in a 12 month period. Sole user change was the installation of Hogue grips. All department sidearms are detail stripped and examined by a certified armorer at least annually.
In the spring period of 2004 we transitioned to the P220R series of pistols, with the intent to furnish officers with rail mounted lights as funding became available. We also moved to the SIG factory 8 round magazine (which is a 7 round mag with one extra observation hole, a new baseplate & follower & a new spring I have come to find out.) No problems were noted during the initial transition phase.
Six months after our transition (about 1500 rounds through the weapon) I noticed the begining of a mushroom-shaped piece of wear and associated small crack at the rear of the breach block where it engages the hammer upon cocking. No similar wear was noted on the hammer, and no other points of contact were noted that would correspond. Additionally, the general wear of both the finish and the pistol was observed to be somewhat more than that of other weapons both personally and professionally used in my history. This was brought to the attention of our armorers & we observed it for another month; with the condition worsening the pistol was returned to SIG who replaced the breach block but provided no other statement or explanation.
During spring qualifications we began observing an abnormally large number of problems with both the weapons and the magazines. In terms of the weapons, again, the general wear of both finish and metal was FAR beyond anything in anyone's experience. Examples include grooves being worn into the slide rails, takedown lever holes being worn to almost twice the initial diameter, trigger pivot pins breaking in supported regions etc. Magazines were causing countless phase I and phase II stoppages with shooters of all ability levels (mine personally failed 5 times during a 50 round night fire course alone). Examination of magazines showed numerous cases of the springs displaying loss of tension and elasticity. One pistol with a documented 370 round count on it showed more overall wear than an "initial generation" department P220 SWAT pistol with over 15000 rounds documented. Please also bear in mind, probably 80% of officers don't fire more than 1000 rounds a year through their sidearms, so these are not high use weapons.
SIG was contacted in the early stages of the issues and had a factory rep respond, as well as countless phone calls. Having spoken with the department firearms coordinator, I have kept close track of this throughout. Long and short of all the explanations have boiled down to "We don't know why." Metalurgy, heat treatments, coatings and pretty much everything else they can think of have been checked with no definitive answers.
Lest we think this problem is limited to the P220 series, we have also been in contact with numerous other agencies using the SIG. The general consensus seems to be that for those agencies which have purchased newer weapons within the past couple of years, issues are cropping up far far faster than ever seen before. It does not seem to be limited to caliber, style or anything else - SIGs aren't lasting like they used to, and armorers are repairing a lot of them.
Repairs don't seem to be fixing the problem either - my breach block is starting to show the same signs of wear as the last one, and again at an "early" round count. Several other weapons are also showing the same.
Fortunately my department has addressed this issue proactively, a wise step considering the potential liability issues involved. A replacement has been identified and awaits final approval and budgeting for holsters. All officers have been given a 7 round magazine to replace the 8 round in the weapon, so at least our initial load SHOULD function as designed. They also have tried to inform as many other departments as possible throughout of the problems we are experiencing, so that others can be prepared if needed.
So, to summarize a lengthy, boring ramble - I can no longer in good conscience recommend SIG as a good brand to people I know. I was rather surprised to see a company with this size and reputation display the apparent loss in quality, the lack of an effective response, and the overall attitude when the problems cropped up, especially on the scale involved. Yes, I will keep my WEST German marked P226 around due to the memories and positive history involved, but it's now like a relic of a foregone age - like when cars were made to last. In fact, I now carry it exclusively off duty as opposed to my P220 - I'd rather have a 9mm that I KNOW works, as opposed to a .45 that MIGHT work.
To provide a bit more information; our department is just under 600 sworn officers and all P220s were replaced with P220R series in the Feb - May 04 time frame. The general problems did not begin cropping up until the same time period one year later, with scattered individual instances before and after (i.e. my breach block & others who have had isolated problems.) BUT, of note, it did seem to be a sudden, massive issue of magazine and pistol problems appearing at roughly one year after issue.
My information regarding issues with the P220R is first hand experience, or direct conversation with shooters, armorers, and regular beat cops. My information regarding general SIG problems in the recent series of weapons is annecdotal through our staff officer who is dealing with this issue. The best summation he gave me last night is that SIGs as a whole, PARTICULARLY the "recent" generation require far more maintenance and upkeep than similar weapons from other major manufacturers. To wit: our weapons as discussed all receive an annual armorer breakdown (as discussed in first post) with replacement of springs, roll pins, etc. Additionally, a portion of weapons in any year will require maintenance/repair due to other issues (unfortunately I don't have a number to associate with this)."
arcticlightfighter
05-23-11, 10:43
When I started at my current agency, the 4566 was the issue sidearm and the 4506 was authorized. It was basically a "commander" sized 4506.
The 4566 was an extremely reliable and accurate firearm. Although the 3rd Gen Smiths were somewhat complicated to work on in comparison to the Glocks SIG and Berettas of the time, they were as stated, reliable.
We really didnt have too many issues with them other than the weight and size. Most referred to them as the "boat anchor." In a CQB situation, if you run dry, flip it around and bludgeon someone with it (humor)
I have always liked the 4506. The few I owned were extremly accurate.
While I like the P226/P228, I would take a 4506/4566 over a P220 any day of the week. The P220 is the worst of the classic Sig's. We had the option of the P220 or 4566--I purchased a P220; after 6 months of trying the P220 I gave up and switched over to the 4566...
So Doc, based on your postings is it safe to AssUMe that the older West German or German built stamped metal P220s with the green spring exhibit better life expectancy than the newer machined guns?
AlsoRe:
5. Early P-220s, without the hammer reset spring, were surplused out as a safety hazard, relating to the decocking lever vs thumb relax issue.
What is meant regarding the "hammer reset spring" and thumb relax issue?
Regarding the OP - I have not shot the 4506, but I do own a 1006 which to my knoweldge is the same gun but chambered in 10mm. This gun was purchased used from a Sheriff deputy in Wyoming with a fair amount of ware as my "back country" pistol. I have put about another 1000 rounds through it in the past 14 years and it has been utterly reliable with everything I have fed it (I know I should be shooting it more). The DA/SA action on it is as good as any DA/SA out there, certainly as nice as a Sig or a Beretta. Accuracy has been as good, if not a little better than any other pistol I have shot and its long sight radius is certainly and advantage here. As others have mentioned, it is heavy but this does have the advantage of taming even the most potent 10mm loads I have shot from it. They have a reputation as being one of the most (if not the most) robust 10mm platforms on the market so I think it is safe to assume that it will handle more 45 rounds than you would likely put through it. I actually don't mind the DA/SA action and the decock/safety since it is the exact same manual of arms as the Beretta has which was my primary handgun for years - your mileage may vary. They also come with standard (as far as I'm aware) a magazine safety which may or may not be an issue to you. My last gripe about the pistol is that the trigger guard is a little sharp which can make the gun uncomfortable when firing. It is something that I have been meaning to have smoothed out when I have the gun refinished (it came with quite a bit of holster wear).
As far as price goes, I would say that $400 for one in great condition would be fair. I payed $425 for mine back in '97 but it included adjustable night sights, 5 magazines and full kit. Others here probably are more in tune to the current going price.
I myself have thought of picking up a 4506 to complement my 1006. I'll agree with the above poster that these 3rd gen Smiths are nice guns that for whatever reason seem to be overlooked far too often.
Thanks for the advice. I'm not sure I want one if the price is high. Plus I found a local store carrying a west german marked sig p220 in 45 acp for $465. It felt a lot better in the hand compared to the 4506. Now I need to brush up on sigs.
I owned an older West German P220 for a spell, largely due to the reputation I thought it had. I loved the feel and fit and it's DA was smooth and single action great. It was extremely accurate - sub 2" rested groups at 25 yds. But the .45 acp with that high bore axis just cranked the muzzle extremely in recoil and I just did not get the hang of running it fast compared to any Glock .40 or .45 or a 1911 so I flipped it.
For $450-465, why not just buy an M&P45?
Delta_Elite
05-23-11, 18:11
The third gen Smiths are well build solid, accurate, heavy guns that when all else's fails also make on hell of a hammer :-)
SoulLessGinger
05-23-11, 23:24
For $450-465, why not just buy an M&P45?
Because your talking about apples and the OP is talking oranges.
Functionally, the 3rd gen Smiths have more in common with a 1911 than an M&P.
They are fine guns, with a lot of good qualities. The reset on the trigger is the best I've ever experienced in a service pistol (My 1006 is only gun I've shot with a reset superior to the Glock). Accuracy is solid, but nothing to write home about, but the weight makes full power 10mm seem like a pussycat.
If you don't mind the weight, I highly recommend them.
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