View Full Version : Compromised sight picture w/ TLR-1
I'm experimenting with mounting a TLR-1 at the 12 o'clock position in front of the front sight on a rifle I recently purchased but haven't been able to get out to a range to shoot yet. Troy BUIS and an Eotech (dot and circle) are mounted on top.
Below are photos of the sight pictures when using the Eotech and the iron sights. As can be seen, there is just a tiny bit of the front sight post visible when using the iron sights, and the eotech's circle is partially obscured but the dot is pretty near the top of the light when the reticle is centered in the window.
My question is this: do people who mount this light (TLR-1 as opposed to X300) simply make-do with a compromised sight picture like this one? OR, does having the bezel of the light protrude so much into the sight picture really not make that big of a difference in practical usage? It seems like for slow-fire, precision shooting, it wouldn't make that much of a difference, but might have a negative effect on the speed of close-up target acquisition (I'm just guessing, as I've not gotten out to try it yet).
http://i.imgur.com/pTg6f.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Ie3MV.jpg
I've used both an X300 and a TLR-1S mounted in front of a front sight while using an EOTech (with a Larue mount mind you) and I never noticed the light causing me any problems in my field of view. When I'm looking at either the target or reticle/dot, I don't notice the light or FSB in my sight picture. Same thing happens when I'm using an ACOG. It blurs out and isn't a factor to me.
Try a Larue or other EOTech mount out if you can and see if that helps. They raise the optic enought to get the irons into the lower 3rd of your FOV and will probably drop the light even further into your sight picture.
I too agree to try a riser (I like the ADM one).
I think the lower 1/3 co-witness will definitely help with this issue and in addition to a cleaner sight picture will also make it faster.
Hmm okay. I have a GG&G QD mount on there right now, which sits about as low as you can go with the optic, I believe.
When adding a riser to the Eotech, do you find that cheek weld is worse off than it is without the riser?
In my experience, the X300 is pretty much the only light that doesn't block the front sight post at all.
Streamlight and Insight lights DO work at 12'oclock if you're OK with the bottom of the front sight post being blocked. I wouldn't call it a "compromised" sight picture, though it is annoying. Here's the view over an Insight Procyon/WX-150 for reference.
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4116/4988272381_248f29803e.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4104/4988870938_17663a8ba9.jpg
Compare with the "un-compromised" view:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4073/4913847321_bc0c04dd2b.jpg
For what it's worth, I have since replaced the Procyon with an X300 and it sits noticeably lower. It's a pretty nice light, too.
If you are running that Eotech correctly, you are running it with both eyes open, it is not a scope. The eye relief is unlimited and the reticle pattern need not be centered to make your hits. With both eyes open you shouldn't really "see" the front sight or the TLR at all.
No problems with cheeck weld and a riser.
Your cheek weld won't change at all. I'd ditch the GG&G mount for a riser.
I also run a tlr at the 12 o'clock , I have an eotech 553 without a riser and I can't say that I've noticed any issues while actually shooting. Seems that my eye wants to pick up the circle and kinda blocks out the light.
Hmm, thanks alot for the feedback, guys. I think my first line of action (aka, the cheapest option) will be to leave the Eotech on there as mounted and see what simply moving the reticle higher in the window does, in terms of creating shifts in POI vs. POA. I've never really verified for myself that an Eotech is "parallax free", as the party-line goes, or - in the case that it's not (what I expect) - looked at what the actual shifts are for various distances and reticle positions.
That would be a really educational experiment in its own right: shoot a couple shots from various distances (5, 10, 25, 50yds) with the reticle in various positions around the window (maybe center, top left, bottom right, etc.) and see which direction and by what magnitude the POI moves in response.
If that is not an acceptable solution (assuming there's a problem; maybe the TLR obscuring part of the reticle won't slow me down in rapid fire, CQB drills once I'm able to actually get out to a range and experiment some), I will grab a riser for the Eotech. Wish there was a small riser instead of the long ones I'm seeing that have the small raised portion on the back to mount a magnifier. The riser that comes built onto the EXPS holosights look perfect for what I'm wanting, but I don't see that you can get those separately to retrofit to an XPS.
In my experience, the X300 is pretty much the only light that doesn't block the front sight post at all.
Streamlight and Insight lights DO work at 12'oclock if you're OK with the bottom of the front sight post being blocked. I wouldn't call it a "compromised" sight picture, though it is annoying. Here's the view over an Insight Procyon/WX-150 for reference.
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4116/4988272381_248f29803e.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4104/4988870938_17663a8ba9.jpg
Compare with the "un-compromised" view:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4073/4913847321_bc0c04dd2b.jpg
For what it's worth, I have since replaced the Procyon with an X300 and it sits noticeably lower. It's a pretty nice light, too.
These pictures are well done, they show the differences clearly. Nice job.
Putting the Eotech on a riser will do nothing to change the sight picture you get looking through the iron sights. It just allows you to keep your head more upright when aiming with the Eotech and it will move the window up so your are looking over the TLR1 more. You'll also get a less cluttered view through the window.
The TLR1 is going to block a portion of your front sight post. As Kartoffel said, the x300 is probably the only one out there that won't do this when mounted in the 12:00 position.
Right - I was thinking that the whole point of the riser was this: when the irons are lined up with each other and with my eye, I'd still be able to see the TLR just the same as I do now (obscuring part of the front sight post), but when using the Eotech, I'd raise my head/eye a little so that the reticle is centered in the optic's window. The reticle will then clear the light and front sight post completely.
Wrong?
My work rifle has KAC railed handguards that are the same plane as the upper rail. To mount my Eotech in the position I wanted it in I needed to bridge the gap where the slip ring is located, I like it way forward as I mentioned above, it is not a scope. The LaRue Eotech riser was ideal for this purpose and this illustrates another use for the riser, other than creating a lower 1/3 co-witness.
Ah, gotcha.
This is going onto a 7.62 PredatAR, so there's no need for abridging the handguard rail and receiver rail. But, it is still mounted as forward on the upper as it can be without having a portion of the optic's rail attachment point locked onto the upper receiver's rail and the other portion locked onto the handguard rail.
Update (so the information's here for posterity)...
The sight picture obtained by placing the Eotech reticle in the upper part of its window by simply adjusting the position of my head is not acceptable, at least not at the level of practice I'm at with it. The reticle is big enough in the window (due to the distance that I have the Eotech placed away from my face) that it requires precise eye/head positioning to ensure that none of the reticle is covering the TLR-1 and that its also not fading out from being too close to the top of the window.
The next step was to check the weaponlight sticky and see what other sort of mounting configurations people have used with a horizontal foregrip. At the moment, I have the VTAC surefire (L4 mini) mounted on the top rail using the VTAC mount, putting the light at about the 10:30 position relative to the bore. I can manipulate the tailswitch using my lefthand thumb if I'm operating the rifle right-handed. However, this arrangement is totally non-ambidextrous, and is also a little awkward. A 12 o'clock mounting position is truly the most comfortable.
Will most likely end up going back to the TLR-1 and using a Larue offset mount on the Eotech, or I might sell the TLR-1 and get an X300. Would probably come within $25 of being the same cost for either option. OR, maybe I should just get an Aimpoint and Larue mount? Hmmm...
Update (so the information's here for posterity)...
The sight picture obtained by placing the Eotech reticle in the upper part of its window by simply adjusting the position of my head is not acceptable, at least not at the level of practice I'm at with it. The reticle is big enough in the window (due to the distance that I have the Eotech placed away from my face) that it requires precise eye/head positioning to ensure that none of the reticle is covering the TLR-1 and that its also not fading out from being too close to the top of the window.
The next step was to check the weaponlight sticky and see what other sort of mounting configurations people have used with a horizontal foregrip. At the moment, I have the VTAC surefire (L4 mini) mounted on the top rail using the VTAC mount, putting the light at about the 10:30 position relative to the bore. I can manipulate the tailswitch using my lefthand thumb if I'm operating the rifle right-handed. However, this arrangement is totally non-ambidextrous, and is also a little awkward. A 12 o'clock mounting position is truly the most comfortable.
Will most likely end up going back to the TLR-1 and using a Larue offset mount on the Eotech, or I might sell the TLR-1 and get an X300. Would probably come within $25 of being the same cost for either option. OR, maybe I should just get an Aimpoint and Larue mount? Hmmm...
It still sounds to me like you are trying to use the Eotech like a scope, which it is not. You shouldn't have a sight picture per se but rather you should be seeing the reticle superimposed on the target with both eyes open.
The only time I have a problem with my ddm4v1 and my tlr1s is if I'm looking directly into the sun.
Hmm, thanks alot for the feedback, guys. I think my first line of action (aka, the cheapest option) will be to leave the Eotech on there as mounted and see what simply moving the reticle higher in the window does....
Im not quite sure what you are thinking of doing from your above post. I think it is one of two things which are both a no-go in-terms of properly setting up your Eotech. RTFM!
The Surefire X300 or TLR1 mounted in the 12 o'clock position is designed to be used in-conjunction with an optic/mount combo that places your iron sights in the "Lower Third" of your sight picture when looking thru your optic. Get the LaRue QD riser mount: http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetactical/Detail.bok?no=33 and drive on.
The Surefire X300 is a lower profile and better light for this application. Hell, It's a better for any application.
The only time I have a problem with my ddm4v1 and my tlr1s is if I'm looking directly into the sun.
:confused: Do you shoot at the sun much?
What I was talking about trying is simply raising my head up so that the reticle moves north and clears the bezel of the light. This didn't work out so well when I tried it though; there's just not enough real estate in that tiny window to be shooting with the reticle in any other place than the center.
Sounds either like a riser is the way to go (the one that you linked to) with the Eotech, or get an Aimpoint H-1 with a Larue LT660. In the latter case, there would still be the problem of the light bezel rising up in line with the bottom part of the front sight post. Not sure if that's a big deal or not yet (kartoffel's first and second pictures posted above show this). Anyone have any experience acquiring targets quickly with a sight picture like the one shown?
Regardless of the parallax free claims by both Aimpoint & Eotech, you want to try to keep the reticle/dot as much in the center of the sight window as possible.
A new Aimpoint H1 and LaRue mount will cost you close to $600 +/-
A LaRue riser mount will cost you an additional $120.
I would also get the X300 which is lower profile and will obscure less of your sight picture.
Hmmm, there are tons of options to consider here...
Wish that Larue riser wasn't so freaking huge. I don't need that raised piece of rail at the back. Would be a total waste of weight. Optimal solution if I keep the XPS: the tiny little QD riser that the EXPS's come mounted on.
After taking a few Vickers classes, I've found myself checking out all the various "for sale" sections on forums for Aimpoint H-1's. I'm gravitating now towards Aimpoint H-1 + Larue LT660 + X300. Buy once, cry once I guess :cray: Besides, it wouldn't be so bad if I could offload some of the stuff I've already got mounted on there (light, sight).
You could always sell your xps and order the exps2-0 from opticsplanet.com for $505. If you could get close to $400 for you xps, you would pretty much break even. Thats what I would do, but my xps is a little beat up from carrying it in my squad car 10 hours a day for the past 2 years.
I know alot of guys love the H1/T1's but I dont care for them at all coming from an Eotech user for the last several years. I tried one for a while and couldnt get used to the tiny tube and 4moa dot of the T1 I had.
Ah, okay, that's exactly the kind of thing I was wondering about (an Eotech user's take on the Aimpoint).
I was thinking around that price for the XPS I have; it's got some bad scratches on top of the hood from being carried slung on my back and banging into a PMag on my belt, but I do have the original mount plus a GG&G QD mount on there.
Thanks a lot, nick.
:confused: Do you shoot at the sun much?
My targets are to the west, that's where the sun sets in these parts.
If you're worried about being able to see and use your front BUIS effectively, a riser won't really help. It will give you a clearer sight picture - but I have to agree with those who say just shoot with both eyes open and it's really a non issue.
For taking shots with the irons though, the TLR1 doesn't leave much room. Your post comes a lot higher then mine does based on my rifle configuration / zero. I typically run an X300 since it allows a good bit more room.
However a cheap solution I found to more easily pick up the front sight and keep it from blending with the weapon light is to put a tiny dab of neon green or bright orange nail polish on the tip of the front sight post. A very small amount is just enough to show some contrast without messing with your RDS picture (and don't use the color red).
I've never seen anyone do this (and rarely see tritium front sight posts) - but I can't think of any disadvantage to doing this. It helps me shoot irons and makes me a lot more comfortable knowing I can quickly pick up my front sight post in the event my RDS fails.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.