View Full Version : Local instructor's oddball training tactic...
You guys just have to see this...
I've been involved in the firearms community in middle Tennessee for as long as I've lived here. About 15 years. I've heard stories about this happening from people who have taken this guy's classes, but it was always kind of like hearing that someone saw the Great White Buffalo.
Then I witnessed it personally by virtue in being on the same range as this bozo, and luckily someone else caught it on their camera-phone.
http://i899.photobucket.com/albums/ac195/mikegideon1/BufordDouchemoment.jpg
Yep. He seriously has students point their guns AT HIS FACE to somehow diagnose their sight alignment. :jester:
This same clown recently blew his finger off at a class while doing an improper "press check" of a student's firearm, with his pinky covering the muzzle. You seriously can't make this shit up.
I foresee a well-deserved Darwin award in his future.
It is stuff like this that causes people to shoot themselves in the chest by accident, like what happened in missouri.
.
What is really telling is that a bunch of "twits" do actually aim at him.
They don't have to... yet they do....some people's kids...I swear.
.
jonconsiglio
05-22-11, 15:24
It's hard to see on my iPhone, but it looks like the student's finger might be on the trigger as well. This is on of the dumbest things I've ever seen an instructor do.
I seriously doubt we're looking at an advanced class, so if it's possible, that almost makes it worse.... This is even worse than the idiot teaching the support side draw and index on the chest with a LOADED firearm in a CCW class that got that guy killed recently.
This is extremely stupid and there's no way I couldn't say something if I happened to be on the same range.
I would find out who issued him his instructor credentials, and provide them a copy of that image.
Don Robison
05-22-11, 15:31
That apparently isn't the first time he's had an AD; just the first time he's shot himself.
I would find out who issued him his instructor credentials, and provide them a copy of that image.
It's been discussed but I don't know if anyone has done so yet. The instructors at our class (which was a more advanced "fighting pistol" course) were dumbfounded to actually witness this and used it as an instructional point of discussion right then and there.
One really cannot exaggerate just how negligent this is as the entire practice is wrong on so many levels. Personally, I believe it's nothing more than pathetic showmanship on his part meant to instill in his students a sense of awe at what a badass he must be.
Unfortunately it pisses all over one of the basic tenants of firearms safety (ie. Never point your gun at something you do not mean to destroy) and it exposes his students to incredible mental/emotional/psychological harm, not to mention potential legal risk, should one of them discharge their firearm into his face.
It's behavior that surpasses the absurd and belly-flops right into the realm of the abhorrent.
polymorpheous
05-22-11, 15:41
Holy stupidity!
:eek:
This guy has no business teaching anyone to tie their shoes let alone use a weapon.
Don Robison
05-22-11, 15:50
I would find out who issued him his instructor credentials, and provide them a copy of that image.
The TN Dept of Safety had already apparently revoked his credentials to teach concealed permit classes before he shot himself, but he was still licensed to teach security guard classes since that cert comes from a different state agency. :blink:
A former supervisor of mine worked with him at Nasheville PD back in the 90's and said he had a "reputation" even back then.
Wha....???
Doesn't everyone point guns at other people and say, "Hey, look down my gun barrel and check my sight alignment for me, would ya?"
:jester:
Thanks for posting this. I am simply horrified, but in some respects I am really not too surprised.
David Blinder
05-22-11, 17:38
It is a valid method of ensuring a student understands proper sight alignment BUT should only be done with a blue gun or a semi-auto with the barrel removed.
Stupid usually fixes itself...... But at a high price. Epic FAIL!.
I suppose it'd be too expensive to have the students put some rounds on paper and diagnose them from there. :rolleyes:
The blue gun idea might work, but not all training guns have sights. As for removing barrels... doesn't work so smoothly with every gun, and I can already tell that: 1) if they're this early into their shooting careers, reassembling a field stripped pistol without a barrel might be asking too much, and 2) No way in Hades is That Guy doing it for me.
Failure2Stop
05-22-11, 17:53
Sight Alignment is one of the simplest concepts to teach and correct.
There is absolutely no reason to have someone point a lethal weapon at your eye to diagnose something so simple.
Then again, it would seem that the majority of posters here have already figured that out. Yay for Darwinism.
Maybe it's just me, but I don't care for having blue/red/sim guns pointed at me either. It can be done with safety measures, but it's still more than a bit unnerving.
Weird. There wasn't much new stuff on M4C this morning so I was looking through TGO and read a thread about this guy.
His comments on the ND incident are posted at the top of page two of this thread: TGO: Gun City Incident (http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/handgun-carry-self-defense/57472-gun-city-incident.html)
Here's the important part:
A student violated that rule [loaded guns in the classroom] and brought a handgun (Walther P99, .40 cal) into the classroom with the magazine removed but with a round chambered. The handgun was in a case and he said that the gun was unloaded. I picked up the gun out of the gun case to inspect the handgun and verify the condition and was holding the gun in my right hand and pushed the slide back with my left hand to check the chamber nonetheless. The gun, which has a striker firing mechanism, discharged while being racked. The round struck the first joint of my little finger on my left hand.
Apparently it was the fault of a student who brought a loaded gun into a classroom where no loaded guns were allowed, and because the gun is capable of discharging when the slide is racked :rolleyes:
polymorpheous
05-22-11, 18:34
His name is Buford! :lol:
Total fudd name!
https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=8508&stc=1&d=1306107884
Maybe he'll keep doing it and just get it over with. We've got enough stupid people to go around, we can afford to loose a few more.
Heavy Metal
05-22-11, 19:31
He needs to worry less about the sight alignment and worry more about that lame-ass teacup grip.
lifebreath
05-22-11, 19:43
You can't fix stupid.
That would make a fine sig tag!
lifebreath
05-22-11, 19:49
Not only is the firearm pointed this face, but the student in the background appears ready to fire downrange ... While this dufus is standing five feet downrange of the firing line.
The TN Dept of Safety had already apparently revoked his credentials to teach concealed permit classes before he shot himself, but he was still licensed to teach security guard classes since that cert comes from a different state agency. :blink:
True, but he got his TDOS creds reinstated.
If I knew how I would make one of those demotivational posters using this picture.
Facejackets
05-22-11, 20:06
Wha....???
Doesn't everyone point guns at other people and say, "Hey, look down my gun barrel and check my sight alignment for me, would ya?"
:jester:
Well, yes, kind of. I think it usually comes out as "GET ON THE GROUND MOTHER ****ER!" or something along those lines.
But holy hell, who the hell taught him to teach that?
That's really gonna hurt for a very brief amount of time one day.
I see that someone found and posted the larger version of the photo, so I have incorporated that into the original post of this thread. I should also point out that we on TGO (TNGunOwners) have been accused by this jackwagon of being fools who know not of what we speak, because we think it's pretty awesome that he blew his finger off press-checking someone's gun.
Of course it's only awesome because he didn't shoot a student in the process, just himself.
CaptainDooley
05-22-11, 20:25
http://m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=8509&stc=1&d=1306113601
No that I'm defending this dope but looking down the barrel is often done when a person is being fitted to a shotgun.
http://media.basspro.com/images/articles/StockFit090408_Kent6.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_QiFk4pFXG4k/SDl9KMMeX_I/AAAAAAAAAtc/4SCwSqrdIGg/s320/Checking+length.jpg
He's not long for this world.
Confed-rifleman
05-22-11, 22:57
HOLY DUMB-ASS BATMAN!
I don't think I could have kept my mouth shut. I'd have to call him out on his blatant stupidity. As amusing as it is when some jack-ass takes himself out, what about the damage it causes to the student when (and if) it finally happens? Also, what about all the students whose minds he has polluted? What happens when one of them takes out someone? Who the &#@% own this facility in the photo and why do they allow him to train on their property this way?
You can't fix stupid but, you can fix ignorant.
Shadow1198
05-23-11, 00:45
In my NRA instructor's class, just for fun the instructor said we could try out some 1-handed retention fire. I've done this plenty of times before, but other than my friend and I, no one else in the class had...some of which were already instructors. One of the students was very uncomfortable with the drill, so the instructor had her hand him the gun, he took the mag out and cleared it, then handed it to her, then told her to "dry fire" at him in the same retention position. This was 90 degrees from down range, pointed down the firing line, luckily with no one else on the range. The funny thing? The moron had a red gun on his belt. He could have eliminated a hell of a lot of risk by just using it. This did absolutely nothing to improve my overall dismal view of "NRA Instruction" to begin with. The best part was when I mentioned some of the well known instructors out there like Vickers, Hackathorn, etc of which he had no clue, and he responded that we should come to his tactical pistol class because he's had students tell him he's better than all those type of guys. :rolleyes: I refuse to ever teach an NRA-approved class.
D. Christopher
05-23-11, 01:40
BT is well known in this part of the country. There is no question he has decades of experience and if you look at his website he has a very long list of credentials. Taking that into account it is even harder to understand how he would put himself in the position seen in the picture above. By his own account of the event that happened at Gun City on 5/14/2011 he is quick to point out that a student broke the rules regarding bringing a loaded weapon into the classroom, but he must have been breaking the most basic of firearms safety rules in order to discharge the pistol into his finger.
First of all it doesn't matter what a student or anyone else says the pistol is always loaded until you verify it safe for yourself. Secondly if the weapon truly isn't pointed at anyone (including you and your fingers) then if it does discharge unexpectedly no one should be injured or killed. Third, I don't think his account of his weapon manipulation is accurate but that is common in most ND events that I have reviewed. It seems the more experience and authority the person has, the less likely they are to actually admit their mistakes in an honest and forthright manner so that others may learn exactly what happened and how to prevent it from happening to others. I don't think what he has described is even possible but since I'm not an expert on the Walther P99 I will leave it to others to verify if his description could be accurate.
This event just reinforces the fact that no matter how much experience you have there are some rules you cannot violate, as a matter of safety and habit.
Rattlehead
05-23-11, 01:57
http://i899.photobucket.com/albums/ac195/mikegideon1/BufordDouchemoment.jpg
Good lord..
Littlelebowski
05-23-11, 06:21
We need to police our own on this.
No that I'm defending this dope but looking down the barrel is often done when a person is being fitted to a shotgun.
That is true, however there is absolutely no comparison between the two activities and how they are performed.
We need to police our own on this.
Easier said than done in this case. Decades of connection with the powers that be have firmly enveloped this guy in the "good ole boy network" and he continues to enjoy that protection. As D. Christopher pointed out [above], BT has a well-established history in this area and continues to foist his anachronistic views on firearms and firearms-use onto anyone hapless enough to sign up for one of his classes.
His name is Buford!
I'm immature enough to get a giggle out of somebody's name and yet remain aware that it has no viable bearing on them as a person....but still think it's amazing that so many folks named along the Cletus/Roscoe/Two-Hypnenated-First-Names subcategory seem to make a dedicated, intentional effort to live up to the associated stereotypes.
It's actually somewhat comforting to know that the suburban Biffs/Muffys of the world are conforming to their archetype as the Ricky-Bobbys are, otherwise I'd just think that the 'necks were just screwing with our heads.
Wha....???
Doesn't everyone point guns at other people and say, "Hey, look down my gun barrel and check my sight alignment for me, would ya?"
:jester:
Some of the instructors at Phx PD I know would have the cadets reverse their OEM glock sites so the sight pick was black.. with no dot/notch.
They dumb asses would ask why the intructors did this and they'd tell them so you can ask the bad guy if your sights are lined up. :p
polymorpheous
05-23-11, 08:49
I'm immature enough to get a giggle out of somebody's name and yet remain aware that it has no viable bearing on them as a person....but still think it's amazing that so many folks named along the Cletus/Roscoe/Two-Hypnenated-First-Names subcategory seem to make a dedicated, intentional effort to live up to the associated stereotypes.
It's actually somewhat comforting to know that the suburban Biffs/Muffys of the world are conforming to their archetype as the Ricky-Bobbys are, otherwise I'd just think that the 'necks were just screwing with our heads.
Sorry sir! I have a very sophomoric sense of humor.:jester:
You summed what I thought was hilarious quite well in your 1st paragraph.
If the fudds and hillbillies are just "screwing with our heads", I applaud them! Because I think that would be hilarious too!
polymorpheous
05-23-11, 08:52
No that I'm defending this dope but looking down the barrel is often done when a person is being fitted to a shotgun.
http://media.basspro.com/images/articles/StockFit090408_Kent6.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_QiFk4pFXG4k/SDl9KMMeX_I/AAAAAAAAAtc/4SCwSqrdIGg/s320/Checking+length.jpg
No real comparison here.
Buford was conducting a class, with what would seem to be novice shooters. With LOADED weapons.
And as someone else pointed out, the line looks like it was hot.
Speechless... I would not have believed this unless I saw the pic.
In my NRA instructor's class, just for fun the instructor said we could try out some 1-handed retention fire. I've done this plenty of times before, but other than my friend and I, no one else in the class had...some of which were already instructors. One of the students was very uncomfortable with the drill, so the instructor had her hand him the gun, he took the mag out and cleared it, then handed it to her, then told her to "dry fire" at him in the same retention position. This was 90 degrees from down range, pointed down the firing line, luckily with no one else on the range. The funny thing? The moron had a red gun on his belt. He could have eliminated a hell of a lot of risk by just using it. This did absolutely nothing to improve my overall dismal view of "NRA Instruction" to begin with. The best part was when I mentioned some of the well known instructors out there like Vickers, Hackathorn, etc of which he had no clue, and he responded that we should come to his tactical pistol class because he's had students tell him he's better than all those type of guys. :rolleyes: I refuse to ever teach an NRA-approved class.
Which NRA instructor certification was this class for?
No real comparison here.
Buford was conducting a class, with what would seem to be novice shooters. With LOADED weapons.
And as someone else pointed out, the line looks like it was hot.
I think the discussion is around pointing a loaded gun at anyone regardless of the situation...no? So if he did it at a gun shop it would be different?
When I saw the picture my first thought was shotgun fitting as there is a possibility he got the idea from this practice.
Again I'm not defending his actions.
I think the discussion is around pointing a loaded gun at anyone regardless of the situation...no? So if he did it at a gun shop it would be different?
When I saw the picture my first thought was shotgun fitting as there is a possibility he got the idea from this practice.
Again I'm not defending his actions.
Generally its a good practice to NEVER point a firearm at someone period... There is a reason they make blue guns/training guns for FOF etc...
Sorry sir! I have a very sophomoric sense of humor.:jester:
Hell, don't be, and join the club. Instructors like this guy doing his brand of schtick....
...add an agreeable sense of the macabre to any delirium.
In my NRA instructor's class, just for fun the instructor said we could try out some 1-handed retention fire. I've done this plenty of times before, but other than my friend and I, no one else in the class had...some of which were already instructors. One of the students was very uncomfortable with the drill, so the instructor had her hand him the gun, he took the mag out and cleared it, then handed it to her, then told her to "dry fire" at him in the same retention position. This was 90 degrees from down range, pointed down the firing line, luckily with no one else on the range. The funny thing? The moron had a red gun on his belt. He could have eliminated a hell of a lot of risk by just using it. This did absolutely nothing to improve my overall dismal view of "NRA Instruction" to begin with. The best part was when I mentioned some of the well known instructors out there like Vickers, Hackathorn, etc of which he had no clue, and he responded that we should come to his tactical pistol class because he's had students tell him he's better than all those type of guys. :rolleyes: I refuse to ever teach an NRA-approved class.
I'm sorry you had a dork for your instructor, but don't lump all NRA instructors in with him. Yes, I am one. I would never allow the behavior shown by the guy in the photo to go on anywhere near me. And I also know how to shoot and teach retention positions. (and I know who LAV and Yoda are)
Littlelebowski
05-23-11, 10:12
At least publish his name so that his unsafe practices come up during Google searches.
Buford Tune
Nashville, TN
Owns/runs a company named APPS.
http://www.appstraining.com/
That is crazy shit. Not sure why people are so stupid.
Littlelebowski
05-23-11, 11:49
Is he teaching Weaver?
J. Buford Tune!!!
That's perfect.
No, he teaches a weird version of Center Axis Relock...kinda.
Heavy Metal
05-23-11, 12:13
Is he teaching Weaver?
I'm a little Teacup, short and stout, this is my handle, this is my spout.......
I guess if he has students point guns at him I shouldn't be surprised that three of the five women are wearing their guns like cowboy rigs.
What a stupendously magnificent idiot! Glad I never had any "instructors" that were this dumb! :(
Shadow1198
05-23-11, 17:41
Which NRA instructor certification was this class for?
NRA Basic Pistol Instructor course from this company:
http://www.npstrainingschool.com/
I took away a few pieces of good info from the class, but I was reassured in feeling I can go above and beyond.
Tarkeg, sorry bud, no offense. I know there are good instructors out there that have NRA certs. Actually, I know a few, two of which are good friends that I would trust with guns in a tough situation. My only point was, for whatever reason, NRA instructor classes seem to attract a large amount of weirdos and idiots that seem reassured they have a clue once they receive that signed piece of paper in the mail. Maybe it's a quality control or a low requirements issue. Not all NRA instructors are bad, but I think the good ones realize that the cert and basic course plans are just a foundation to build on.
Maybe it's just me, but I don't care for having blue/red/sim guns pointed at me either. It can be done with safety measures, but it's still more than a bit unnerving.
Indeed, in my organization it will earn you some time off, if done outside a specific training event. IE: Joking around and pointing a red gun at a co-worker, earned someone a 2(?) day suspension.
The sorriest of all, is, if you were to take a class with Hackathorn or Vickers, you would find out, how sight alignment is not nearly as important, as this dolt, obviously thinks it is.
Bob
D. Christopher
05-23-11, 17:59
In my circle he has been referred to as "Buford T. JustAss" or "Buford T. DumbAss" for over 20 years.
When told about all the talk and posts on TGO about his incident and asked if he would like to respond he is reported to have replied:
"They are all fools and I have no idea as to what they are talking about and they do not deserve an answer from me."
As has been pointed out already on TGO, one fact that is indisputable is that Buford is an instructor, and he shot himself. There endeth the lesson.
He's not long for this world.
He has been doing his for more than 15 years so he is lucky and consistent as well as an idiot. If memory serves, he also has people sight in on him and pull the trigger so students can know what it feels like to "drop the hammer" on another person.
NRA Basic Pistol Instructor course from this company:
http://www.npstrainingschool.com/
I took away a few pieces of good info from the class, but I was reassured in feeling I can go above and beyond.
Tarkeg, sorry bud, no offense. I know there are good instructors out there that have NRA certs. Actually, I know a few, two of which are good friends that I would trust with guns in a tough situation. My only point was, for whatever reason, NRA instructor classes seem to attract a large amount of weirdos and idiots that seem reassured they have a clue once they receive that signed piece of paper in the mail. Maybe it's a quality control or a low requirements issue. Not all NRA instructors are bad, but I think the good ones realize that the cert and basic course plans are just a foundation to build on.
NRA instructors can have their credentials suspended or revoked for silly stunts like this. If one is instructing a NRA Basic Pistol class, then they must stick to the course outlines. Deviating from the outlines can result in suspension/revocation if reported to the NRA Training Division. The classes are just what the titles represent, in this case basic pistol. It is not a platform for the instructor to ad-lib into Tactical Pistol Employment 301.
Shadow1198
05-23-11, 21:22
NRA instructors can have their credentials suspended or revoked for silly stunts like this. If one is instructing a NRA Basic Pistol class, then they must stick to the course outlines. Deviating from the outlines can result in suspension/revocation if reported to the NRA Training Division. The classes are just what the titles represent, in this case basic pistol. It is not a platform for the instructor to ad-lib into Tactical Pistol Employment 301.
This was an instructor certification class, to clarify.
It works the same. The TC must follow the course outline. There is no reason to deviate and still call it a NRA Basic Pistol Instructor class. Stupid safety mistakes and making unapproved additions to the course material can result in the same things for an instructor or a training counselor. The instructor classes are to certify one to teach the NRA course material, not to certify one as pistol guru extraordinaire. The TC classes are to certify one to teach the NRA course material to develop instructors. The courses taught by instructors are a basis for the students to build off of, not for the instructor to use as a platform for their own spin while still calling it an NRA course. The NRA training department will tell you exactly that and that safety issues will get instructors and training counselors suspended/removed.
Straight from the Summer 2009 NRA Shooting Education Update:
Two NRA Training Counselors have had their credentials revoked, four Training Counselors have been placed on probation, and five have had their credentials suspended.
Twenty five Certified Instructors have had their credentials suspended, with four being revoked.
These actions were taken for various violations: ethical issues; not following lesson plans; safety violations; failure to use appropriate disclaimer for non-NRA courses; and intellectual property violations for making copies of NRA certificates.
They should revoke his based on this photo alone.
QuietShootr
05-24-11, 09:48
No that I'm defending this dope but looking down the barrel is often done when a person is being fitted to a shotgun.
http://media.basspro.com/images/articles/StockFit090408_Kent6.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_QiFk4pFXG4k/SDl9KMMeX_I/AAAAAAAAAtc/4SCwSqrdIGg/s320/Checking+length.jpg
Not that I don't understand why they're doing that, but shotgunners are typically the most unsafe douches you see running around with guns. I went to "Trap Night" at a local range a while back, and I got a workout from all the ducking and bobbing I had to do to keep the old bastards from pointing their guns at me. Plus, they rest the muzzle of their gun on their toe - it's so common they actually make a pad for your shoe to do it on. :rolleyes:
QuietShootr
05-24-11, 09:51
Buford Tune
Nashville, TN
Owns/runs a company named APPS.
http://www.appstraining.com/
"J. Buford Tune", no less.
Not that I don't understand why they're doing that, but shotgunners are typically the most unsafe douches you see running around with guns. I went to "Trap Night" at a local range a while back, and I got a workout from all the ducking and bobbing I had to do to keep the old bastards from pointing their guns at me. Plus, they rest the muzzle of their gun on their toe - it's so common they actually make a pad for your shoe to do it on. :rolleyes:
This is exactly why I posted this. I figured there would be a good amount of people reading this that were unaware of this practice. Its actually an extremely old practice. That being said, shotguns are fitted because you point them rather than aim with sights. I'm thinking "ole Buford" is putting a new and dangerous spin on things.
As far as resting a shotgun on your toe, it is usually done with with a double barrel shotgun "broken" open and is a safe practice.
Also, I wouldn't judge "shotgunners" by the people that show up for trap night - usually a lot of hunters that shoot trap once or twice a year to practice for hunting. That and sighting in their deer rifles makes up 98% of their yearly shooting. With 2% shoot'n at food.
The sporting and tactical/practical shooting worlds are much different and since I play with both crowds I can tell you real "shotgunners" are usually plenty safe. I have witnessed FAR more "douches" and unsafe acts on the tactical/practical side. :rolleyes:
I also witnessed this crap in the same class Tungsten was in. Tune had a full class, 20 to 30 people ALL pointing “unloaded” guns at him and dry firing so he could do whatever he claims, sight picture, trigger control…insert some BS excuse here. I never wanted a 9mm blank so bad in my entire life. I TOOK my carry permit class from him and I DO NOT remember aiming a gun at him.
It was bound to happen sooner or later. I’m glad he shot himself instead of a student, or worse, a student shooting him or another person in class. There’s another story floating about of one of his ex-students popping rounds off against a robber…who was fleeing. When the cops arrived, the student was firing at the bad guy who was unassing the area. Cops yelled DROP YOUR WEAPON; “student” continues firing…student catches a few .40s from a MNPD Glock. Don’t know the veracity of the story, but it wouldn’t surprise me in the least
This conversation reminds me of people talking about the weather, everyone talks about it, nobody does anything about it.
Is there any way to formally contact the NRA and file a complaint against this guy, report him, whatever?
Buford's APPS site doesn't say anything about him being an NRA instructor that I saw. My comments about the NRAs Training Division were in ref to an unsafe act that another poster related about an instructor class.
I don't think he is a NRA certified instructor...state certified yes, but I don't know if he claims NRA or not.
Wow. Just....wow.
I have nothing further to add that hasn't been said already. I'm seriously dumbfounded.
I guess sometimes it's a valid teaching tool to point cleared guns at people and pull the trigger?
"Good Cop, Bad Cop" Featuring British Supercop Paul Castle: Good Cops, Bad Cops 117s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WX3FtBKdwY4&feature=player_detailpage#t=117s) Good Cops, Bad Cops 152s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WX3FtBKdwY4&feature=player_detailpage#t=152s)
And so this thread stays open, mention as little—or, preferably, nothing—about the LEOs in the video. I'm posting this just in the context of the thread, so relate any comments directly to the instructor/instruction. I also understand that Buford's reasons are of seemingly little merit, whereas Castle's might have some—I don't know enough about him and his methods to make that judgement. Still seems to me that he could have used some kind of blue gun to the same effect, especially since what they are doing "goes against policy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WX3FtBKdwY4&feature=player_detailpage#t=167s)."
So, is it always wrong to point an unloaded gun at someone, and pull the trigger, or does it depend on the context?
So, is it always wrong to point an unloaded gun at someone, and pull the trigger, or does it depend on the context?
The former.
I've seen some argue that the universal firearms handling rules are situational. "Well, I know the gun isn't loaded because I just checked." or "If you're an advanced shooter or trying an advanced technique, it's okay to do X".
Bullshit. That utterly and completely misses the point. They are "universal" because they apply always in every situation. They have built in redundancies, so if really requires breaking multiple rules to cause yourself a problem. That said, you should never break any of them.
As an example, I practice dry firing. Here is my procedure:
1) Take gun out
2) Remove magazine
3) Rack the gun three times in fast succession
4) Put gun to slide lock and inspect the mag well, barrel and breech both visually and tactically (via a pinky)
5) Firing against a backstop which will stop a bullet (I typically use body armor or a shelf full of books) practice dry firing
I've had times where in step 3 after I *thought* I'd unloaded the gun, I keep racking and more rounds come out. I hadn't unloaded the damn thing, but had gotten distracted with something else and inadvertently skipped it until confusedly watching one round after another get ejected. Doing this is extra back up. I also "know" the gun isn't loaded when I start dry firing. Doesn't matter, I will only put my finger on the trigger when I'm pointing at something which should stop the bullet and which I don't care if I shoot.
I make especially sure to never point it at anything and never pull the trigger until I'm on target. I certainly never sweep any part of my anatomy or anyone elses. I see this last one in videos on YouTube (even from otherwise smart folks) where while showing a weapon, they finger the barrel end. This never fails to make me cringe. They can give every reason in the world that's acceptable, but to me they are an accident waiting to happen. As long as it's only themselves they hurt, I really don't give a shit.
I take safety very seriously and this guy is completely out of his mind. And in my opinion, it is NEVER alright for an instructor to point a cleared weapon at themselves or at a student (much less having a student point a gun at the instructor). The main reason for this is that students mimic what instructors do! Am I going to accidentally shoot a student by demoing with a weapon I have cleared ... no, but very bad things can happen when the students go home and demo the same thing to their buddies. At a certain level, I don't think it's as scary but the students all need to be at that level also! And even then, with red/blue guns so cheap, there is really no reason to do this. Let me give an example of the only time in my life I felt it was acceptable. I was at an advanced class and the instructor described a case in which a lack of a certain skill led to a loss of life. It was difficult to visualize and we were already at the range without a blue gun. The instructor cleared his gun, told us what he was planning to do, advised us why he wouldn't do it in front of the average student, and asked us if we were ok with it. That is a rare circumstance. General rule, NEVER do it.
As for the 4 cardinal rules of fiirearms safety, I disagree with the hard liners. I believe that, although rare, in limited situations, there are execptions to the rules. Obvioulsy in the real world, the rules are broken all the time. For example, a LEO or citizen doesn't shoot every threat he draws on. But there are exceptions in the training world also. Examples include MOUT training or tactical teams doing live CQB training (very big boy stuff). Although not ideal, teammates will get muzzled every now and then.
And as for clearing a weapon, people have all kinds of methods but for me: mag out, slide/bolt lock back, thorough visual inspection (chamber, mag well, breech or bolt face), look away, and visually inspect again. I don't understand people who need to rack several times prior to locking the slide/bolt back. I guess if you're not focused enough on the loaded gun in your hand and forget to remove the mag first, maybe you need the extra step because you probably can't trust yourself to do a thorough visual inspection without getting distracted. Checking by finger after visually checking clear also seems like overkill and asking for pain if the slide/bolt is accidentally released. But again, if you're that distractable, by all means, go for it. In the dark, of course you should have the skill to unload and clear malfunctions by physical inspection (although you should have a flashlight on you anyway).
For dry fire practice I always choose the safest direction but again, I'm dealing with a weapon I have cleared and there is no live ammo around so I am somewhat relaxed. If the gun leaves my sight for even a second, I recheck it (ex. going to the bathroom).
I am not trying to rip on anyone, I fully prefer people who are overly anal about their gun safety than the opposite. It just seems some folks are too inflexible in their thinking.
Sorry if I'm a bit off topic, I don't mean to offend anyone.
On the topic of sweeping oneself, I think there are times when it'll happen during training. For example, atypical drawing positions, one handed support side draw and malfunction clearing, drawing and shooting from vehicles, etc ... I'm not saying that you should sweep yourself doing these drills but that it will happen, especially when stress is added to the equation. That is why these are advanced skills which should be taught with a 2:1 student to instructor ratio ideally. The student should be at a level that he will defiantly not put his booger picker on the boom switch. Slowing these movements down for safety sake is counter productive, they are not training as they would fight on they day. If the students are not advanced enough, do it dry, with airsoft or sims. Just my long winded .02 cents.
I am not trying to rip on anyone, I fully prefer people who are overly anal about their gun safety than the opposite. It just seems some folks are too inflexible in their thinking.
Sorry if I'm a bit off topic, I don't mean to offend anyone.
No worries, I'm certainly not offended. You're definitely entitled to your opinion. Personally I'm simply of the opinion that one cannot be too anal about safety when there is a firearm around. Is racking the slide repeatedly overkill? Perhaps. Never dry firing except against a suitable back stop? Probably. But my view is that building in extra safeguards for that one time when you forget something helps prevent things going bad. It's just one more impediment to shooting yourself or someone else and doesn't take much effort once you've practiced it enough. It's almost reflexive.
If a rule gets broken occasionally, it's not the end of the world. Again, that's why there are redundancies and why I see value in even extra redundancies beyond the four universal firearms handling rules (such as repeated racking, etc). There's no need to *consciously* decide to violate the four rules, however, and if you do and someone sees it, I think they bear a moral responsibility to let you know so you can endeavor to not repeat the mistake.
Just my .02 and by no criteria would I be judged to be an advanced shooter to take it for what it is.
As for the 4 cardinal rules of fiirearms safety, I disagree with the hard liners. I believe that, although rare, in limited situations, there are execptions to the rules. Obvioulsy in the real world, the rules are broken all the time. For example, a LEO or citizen doesn't shoot every threat he draws on.
Nowhere in the rules does it say that a LEO or Citizen MUST shoot every threat he draws on.
zacbol - I get ur point about redundancies brother. I absolutely respect ur system. I wasn't trying to be nitpicky and I do agree that safety is everyones reaponsibility.
The Cat - Drawing on a threat that may turn out to not require shooting breaks the "do not point your muzzle at anything you are not willing to destroy" or "laser beam" rule. You may not be willing to "destroy" your daughter sneaking into the house at 2am but hearing the disturbance, you may challenge her at gunpoint until you've identified her. Hope that clarifies what I meant. That actually happened to a buddy of mine. From my point of view he did everything right but the "boss" didn't think so and he spent 2 weeks sleeping in the shed :).
CaptainDooley
05-26-11, 10:04
The Cat - Drawing on a threat that may turn out to not require shooting breaks the "do not point your muzzle at anything you are not willing to destroy" or "laser beam" rule. You may not be willing to "destroy" your daughter sneaking into the house at 2am but hearing the disturbance, you may challenge her at gunpoint until you've identified her. Hope that clarifies what I meant. That actually happened to a buddy of mine. From my point of view he did everything right but the "boss" didn't think so and he spent 2 weeks sleeping in the shed :).
I think he broke a cardinal rule. If he had a handheld light he could have identified the target without ever pointing a weapon at his own child.
sboza, I see what you mean and I do agree, but what you're talking about falls under the being-sure-of-your-target rule.
The Cat - fair enough.
I do disagree with you captaindooley. He had a weapon mounted light and I think that is more than sufficient with good training. He does this for a living and stays current with his skillset. Identifying a potential threat with a handheld and then coming up to a flashlight/gun combo grip is slower and requires a good deal of proficiency under stress as opposed to a dedicated weaponlight. Training makes all the difference. And to add a bit of backstory, his daughter was grounded but snuck out of the house, became intoxicate and snuck back into the home loudly, ie knocking things over. He heard the racket, had his wife call 911 from the bedroom closet and went to retrieve his kids. As he walked towards the stairs in darkness, no reason to announce your presence by lighting up the house, he came upon the potential threat and lit it up. Recognizing his daughter, he bright her to the the master bedroom and went to retrieve their son. He knew what had probably had happened from the smell of alcohol on her breath but he didn't take a chance until he wa sure everyone was safe. People end up being challenged at gunpoint all the time. Again, training makes all the difference. From my point of view, he did nothing wrong. That said, you may handle your family's defense as you see fit.
The Cat - fair enough.
I do disagree with you captaindooley. He had a weapon mounted light and I think that is more than sufficient with good training. He does this for a living and stays current with his skillset. Identifying a potential threat with a handheld and then coming up to a flashlight/gun combo grip is slower and requires a good deal of proficiency under stress as opposed to a dedicated weaponlight. Training makes all the difference. And to add a bit of backstory, his daughter was grounded but snuck out of the house, became intoxicate and snuck back into the home loudly, ie knocking things over. He heard the racket, had his wife call 911 from the bedroom closet and went to retrieve his kids. As he walked towards the stairs in darkness, no reason to announce your presence by lighting up the house, he came upon the potential threat and lit it up. Recognizing his daughter, he bright her to the the master bedroom and went to retrieve their son. He knew what had probably had happened from the smell of alcohol on her breath but he didn't take a chance until he wa sure everyone was safe. People end up being challenged at gunpoint all the time. Again, training makes all the difference. From my point of view, he did nothing wrong. That said, you may handle your family's defense as you see fit.
Depends on your definition of "gunpoint". If using a weapon mounted light, it's possible to ID a subject using the spill from the light without actually covering the subject with the muzzle. Covering an unknown subject with the muzzle while activating a weapon mounted light could possibly result in a sympathetic response, particularly if the subject reacts to the light physically. Unless you're sure the subject is a hostile threat before activating the light for a firing solution, it's best to keep the muzzle depressed for safety.
Not being stubborn but I still disagree with those tactics. Sympathetic response is an issue. Training helps alleviate it and not using your trigger finger for anything but pulling the trigger makes a big difference also (exception is when using a rocker switch one handed). For cqb work, I am not a big fan of using spill to give away my location while identifying my target from what would be a less than "ready" ready position. And if I have identified the threat as hostile without white light, I'm gonna service him without ever activating my light unless absolutely necessary to hit the threat and/or identify that the problem has been solved. But when I use light, it is to dominate the room, I don't flashbulb. Once I go with white light, I will clear all threats/friendlies (quickly) before I go lights out again. Not going into cqb or one man cqb tactics but that is my opinion on light usage regarding cqb. Depending on circumstances, I may clear the threshold with quick flashes but once I enter, I dominate the room with light on if I need light.
Again just my .02 cents. I love hearing differing opinions and learning so feel free to criticize. I apologize for taking this thread a bit off topic. We can have this conversation elsewhere if anyone is offended.
...he also has people sight in on him and pull the trigger so students can know what it feels like to "drop the hammer" on another person.
I saw this same thing on "Shooting Gallery" a couple years back. I can't find the episode so I won't say the name of the place I think did it. Hopefully that has since been dropped from the agenda but it had them on my no-go list for a long time. One more reason to read the training forums...
Look right here.
Now smile.
OK...wait for the flash.
------------------
I've seen some dumb things in my day, and that's real close to the dumbest.
Look right here.
Now smile.
OK...wait for the flash.
------------------
I've seen some dumb things in my day, and that's real close to the dumbest.
Hahahaha!
I've seen some dumb things in my day, and that's real close to the dumbest.
Indeed. I've been witness to some atrociously unsafe gun handling - the examples at the top my list are mostly poorly trained Africans running around in the bush with automatic weapons - but this guy definitely makes the list.
I feel horrible for his students.
D. Christopher
05-26-11, 19:32
Natural selection at work. Here's lookin' at you Buford.
https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=8554&stc=1&d=1306456181
I feel horrible for his students.
Man, no kidding.
Brings a whole new meaning to See One, Do One, Teach One.
I had a sporting clays instructor get to point my double at him to diagnose my bead alignment. He insisted, we both verified that the gun was empty, and it still made me ill.
This reminds me of the idiot at Tactical Response who was down range taking pictures. Is there something in the water in TN?
D. Christopher
05-28-11, 17:49
This reminds me of the idiot at Tactical Response who was down range taking pictures. Is there something in the water in TN?
It's not the water it's the gene pool. Some family trees don't fork!
threeheadeddog
05-30-11, 18:47
I moved to TN.. In some areas there is no "family tree" just a "family wreath"
His name is Buford! :lol:
Total fudd name!
I'm immature enough to get a giggle out of somebody's name and yet remain aware that it has no viable bearing on them as a person....but still think it's amazing that so many folks named along the Cletus/Roscoe/Two-Hypnenated-First-Names subcategory seem to make a dedicated, intentional effort to live up to the associated stereotypes.
It's actually somewhat comforting to know that the suburban Biffs/Muffys of the world are conforming to their archetype as the Ricky-Bobbys are, otherwise I'd just think that the 'necks were just screwing with our heads.
Indeed. One need look only as far as Buford Boone to see that you can indeed have a Roscoe/Cletus/Hyphenated name and be a true SME.
AFOSI had a Jim-Bob (McCarty) years ago, who could run a gun and teach others safely.
Surely, somewhere there's a Billy-Bob in the space program, a Cletus in astronomy, or a Roscoe that's a physicist.
The Billy-Bob/NASA reference just reminded me of somebody...
One of the group of CMTs/coaches I headed up was this kid from the deep south (GA) whose first name was, I kid you not, 'Belvedere' and who spoke like Foghorn freakin' Leghorn. That just made his overall awesomeness that much better; few things cooler than a genius that sounds like a stuttering yokel. Smart as hell, self-starter, good teacher, gloriously belligerent without being insubordinate. Equally capable of making fun of or wallowing in his corn-pone hickdom. Truly amazing kid.
Look up an old cartoon called Dog Gone South. In it, the owner of a certain dog is a stereotypical southern "colonel" who calls the dog by his plantation-accent yell "Oooooohhhhh, BELLLL-ve-DERE!! Come HE-AH, boy!" So, of course, that's how I summoned his attention when I required his presence (without the "boy" part). Anyway, reason I got reminded of him was because he's the first person who ever uttered the phrase "Space Shuttle door-gunner" in my presence. Totally lost my ass when he did.
"Wah, Ah say Ah say, when Ah re-SEVE mah DIS-charge frum thiys frateningly primitive orgin-uh-ZA-shun, mahk mah wurds, Ah'm a-gonna be th fust Ah say th fust do gunna on th Space Shut-ul..."
Gold, Jerry!
Indeed. One need look only as far as Buford Boone to see that you can indeed have a Roscoe/Cletus/Hyphenated name and be a true SME.
AFOSI had a Jim-Bob (McCarty) years ago, who could run a gun and teach others safely.
Surely, somewhere there's a Billy-Bob in the space program, a Cletus in astronomy, or a Roscoe that's a physicist.
Now theres a name I haven't heard in a while. I believe he was also quite a bullseye shooter too.
There are inbred idiots everywhere - but ours tend to get more press.
MarshallDodge
06-06-11, 18:15
Watch the slideshow (http://www.appstraining.com/slideshow.html)for more gun handling foolishness, including a student that is sitting down.
I am not going to sit here and completely bash the guy on one issue but I see no reason for pointing a gun at someone for the reason given and a professional level instructor should know better than to shoot himself.
I'm not surprised at all.
Just as there are a huge amount of clueless self proclaimed experts out there, there are clueless instructors.
Nothing in this community surprises me anymore.
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