View Full Version : How many lefties started out with an ambi charging handle?
I'm asking because I'm nearly finished with my first AR build and am not sure if I should go with an ambi, which aren't cheap, or a standard charging handle. I've already bought a BCM Gunfighter but I'm seriously considering selling it and picking up a Badger Ordnance.
Off subject, but a little background ... I've done an incredible amount of research on every aspect of my AR build. I was originally going to buy a Del-Ton because of the price and great reviews but the more research I did, the more I wanted to guarantee that my grandchildren would be able to shoot my rifle in 40 years so I decided to go with a DD. This is, in part, why I'm asking. I want to do it right the first time.
I've read both sides to having an ambi CH. Some say to train with a standard CH in case you ever needed to shoot right handed and that they are used to shooting with a standard. Some say to take advantage of having the advantage and go with an ambi. Me personally, I feel an ambi would allow me to charge it on either side. I just don't know if the Badger Ordnance is worth the $70+ price tag.
Also on the subject, I read somewhere that BCM has an ambidextrous charging handle in the works and will be putting it out there this year. Can anyone confirm or deny this rumor?
Deadeye0331
05-23-11, 11:41
Let me ask you this; with the current setup do you grab both sides of the charging handle to rack the bolt or just hook the lever side? If you are already grabbing both sides of the charging handle, i dont see were the ambi offers much advantage. Im a lefty also and have no problems with the standard controls. I guess its all about how you train with the rifle.
Me, I'm holding out for the BCM ambi they told me was being designed. They gave me no time line, but I believe I asked them more than 6 mos ago.
bnanaphone
05-23-11, 12:58
I am a lefty and don't have any trouble using the BCM MOD 4 gunfighter charging handle. The extended handle lever makes it really easy to get a good grip and easily charge the weapon.
I will hold the pistol-grip in my left hand, bring my right hand under my left and manipulate the CH with my thumb (palm facing me). It is just how I taught myself to charge the weapon. After a few tries you get use to it. Lying prone, it can be a pain but most of my shooting is done standing or on a bench.
Of course, YMMV and all. Good luck.
Iraq Ninja
05-23-11, 13:05
An ambi charging handle has always been the least of my concerns, and I have been shooting the AR since 1976. Even with my currently issued M4, I have never had a strong desire to get one.
Ambi safety and battery assist lever are more valuable than an ambi charging handle in my experience. YMMV.
I am RH but shoot long guns LH (eye dominance preference)
I just installed the Badger ambi-CH a couple weeks ago. Only had a chance to shoot once with it though. I had previously used a standard CH an grabbed it by "clawing" it with my RH. While that worked I didn't like how I had to create alot of space between myself and the rifle to make it work. I briefly tried using my left hand, but didn't like having to remove my hand from the pistol grip and then return.
So the Badger Ordinance is an experiment for me. While the big latch on the ejection side is goofy looking, it really allows me to grab it with my right hand without slamming my fingers into the forward assist. There are other ambi-charging handles with normal size levers on the ejection side that are almost unusable because of the interference with the forward assist. I have no idea how well it will hold up over time but appears to be pretty good quality. The only potential knock on it is the large latch on the ejection side may get caught on clothes, belt, gear, etc. while allowed to hang in front of you by a sling. I have let mine hang infront of me and tried to get it to unlatch the CH with no success, but can see how it could happen if you were really bouncing around.
In your situation, I do not understand what advantage a gunfighter will have unless you plan on using your left hand. The large lever is nice if you are a RH and using your left hand to operate it, but if you are coming over the top with a RH and clawing the CH I don't see the point.
Ambi safety and battery assist lever are more valuable than an ambi charging handle in my experience. YMMV.
+1 to this, too
Thanks for the responses. This'll be my first experience shooting an AR so I'm gonna try it out with the BCM Mod 4 that I have and see how it works out. I'm definitely investing in an ambi safety in the near future.
From what I understand, the Army considers the existing charging handle ambidextrous, and though I wouldn't say the Army knows best, I do agree with this assessment.
A charging handle with dual latches, or latch-less altogether, has limited use with a standard upper receiver, as the forward assist and its plunger are in the way. The ledge on the plunger can pose a real concern to a user's index finger nail, if it catches on the ledge/lip of the plunger while the user aggressively pulls back on the charging handle, it would be a very painful experience.
On Vltor's and other uppers where the FA is moved forward, this problem goes away, however the catch is they're not standard issue, and compared to uppers with standard FA configurations, they're very small in number.
We'll be coming out with a new forward assist plunger to make using your right hand to pull back on the right latch (on an ambi charging handle) a risk-free event. It's nothing fancy, it does what it's supposed to do: remove the hazard to the user's finger nail, while being smaller because it's a rarely used feature.
Re: our own charging handles, more details to come later ;)
militarymoron
05-23-11, 14:39
i'm a lefty and i set up my rifles with ambi controls as it makes manipulation from the left or right shoulder pretty much the same.
i'm a civvie, and don't have any concerns about keeping my rifle standard - i set it up to maximize efficiency for the 99% of the time i'm shooting my own rifle vs. someone else's. there's no guarantee that the other rifle i'm handed is also an AR. if you're worried about not being able to operate standard AR after getting used to ambi controls, doesn't it make sense to familiarize yourself with the operation of other weapons like AKs, HKs, lever actions etc?
the same argument against installing ambi controls on a regular AR could be used against battery assist levers/devices, or any of the new lowers that incorporate ambi features like the SR-15E3 or LMT MWS. installing ambi controls doesn't preclude you from training the standard way.
this is just my personal preference - everyone will have their own thoughts and preferences on this, and what's right for them.
Don't try to solve a software problem with a hardware fix.
Don't try to solve a software problem with a hardware fix.
So he should rewire his brain to be a righty before seeking ambi-controls?
I too am a righty who shoots long guns left handed due to left eye dominance and poor vision in my right eye. I use the Armadynamics charging handle which allows me to charge the rifle without taking it down from my shoulder or rolling it over and reaching across with my right hand.
I like the Armadynamics unit a lot. Quality is very good.
DaBears_85
05-23-11, 18:08
Both the Armadynamics and the Badger Ordnance ambi-charging handles are excellent choices. I've never had an issue with the forward assist getting in the way with either. All you have to do is find a comfortable way of manipulating the latch that won't get your fingers caught on the FA, then practice charging it over and over again. Eventually it will become muscle memory and a non-issue.
Too easy. :)
J
I'm a lefty that's been shooting AR's for over 20 years. All of my builds get Troy ambi mag releases and ambi safeties. To me the mag realease is numero uno followed by the safety. I've tried the various charging handles and for me the gunfighter, 3 or 4, is the best answer.
militarymoron
05-23-11, 19:44
Don't try to solve a software problem with a hardware fix.
both software and hardware evolve with time. you still running a TRS-80 computer and a carry handle AR?
it's pretty simple - the AR was designed for righties. ambi controls allow lefties to operate it in the same way it was intended for righties. it's a hardware fix that allows both righties and lefties to use the same software.
So he should rewire his brain to be a righty before seeking ambi-controls?
No, he should work with standard controls so he doesn't get muscle memory built for an ambi-gun and then starts to fumble **** if he ever picks up a righty gun. A rifleman that shoots fantastically while right handed and then transitions to their weak side and can't hit shit isn't training hard enough with their weakest skill set. If a person NEEDS an ambi safety selector and NEEDS an ambi charging handle because of bad training and poor muscle memory is a liability.
both software and hardware evolve with time. you still running a TRS-80 computer and a carry handle AR?
it's pretty simple - the AR was designed for righties. ambi controls allow lefties to operate it in the same way it was intended for righties. it's a hardware fix that allows both righties and lefties to use the same software.
I understand gear evolutions are common place and necessary (I run an ACOG on my go to rifle BTW), but trying to rebuild or redesign a gun that was designed one specific way that doesn't enhance its performance in an appreciable manner because of a software issue is just stupid. There are pluses and minuses to every piece of gear a person owns, but installing an ambi-charging handle adds little in the way of pluses, but adds a significant minus in terms of muscle memory and firearm manipulation with a non-ambi charging handle. Same goes for an ambi mag release, safety selector, the Magpul BAD (there are other issues with the BAD, but the worst is muscle memory), and other pieces of gear that add few pluses but **** with weapon manipulation.
Fried Chicken Blowout
05-24-11, 00:18
Interesting set of angry responses regarding the left hand controls. I've got left hand badger charging handles on all my guns and two more on order. I would say they are my favorite piece of equipment on my guns. As a left handed shooter I could do without the ambi safety if needed, but really like the ambi mag release for proactive reloads so I can juggle two mags in one hand. But the charging handle is tops.
I don't ever have to come over the top or under the gun. The gun can stay mounted right on my shoulder if needed. It's just like a right handed person, just on the other side. Not sure what all the sideways talk about this subject is. If you want to run it this way, then do. If you think it's a shit way to do it then don't do it. The chance of me having to pick up someone else's gun to save my life is totally zero, so I'm not worried. If that zero chance in zero came up, I would break my firing grip and charge it with my left hand, via the LAV method.
militarymoron
05-24-11, 08:28
nimbadew - are you a lefty?
edited to add: to answer the OP's original question - i didn't start out with an ambi charging handle. i bought my first AR in 1985 (with several more to follow) and didn't try out an ambi charging handle until a few years ago, when ones finally came out that didn't have big levers. i have both the badger and armament dynamics charging handles on all my uppers now, and i feel that their pluses outweigh any minuses that they might have.
for lefty shooters that have never tried one - i'd recommend finding a buddy who has one, so you can try it. it does make a significant difference IMHO, as a left-handed shooter, especially when clearing malfunctions, or when using optics that come to the rear of the receiver like a scope or ACOG. normally, if there's only a BUIS there, and i'm using a standard charging handle, i can reach over the top of the receiver and charge it. less easy with a scope in the way.
do ambi controls make it more efficient for a lefty to operate an AR? in my opinion, as a lefty, yes. whether or not to use them is a personal decision. i've found that swapping between an ambi set up AR and a standard one is no different than getting handed an AK or HK93, or switching between a glock and 1911. you adapt when you have to. but given the choice as a civvie, i'll adapt my personal weapons to be the most efficient configuration for my own preferences. but this is after more than 25 years of shooting a standard AR. if you're new to the AR platform. i'd recommend that you start out with a standard AR, get familiar with it and how to manipulate it that way. then try out one ambi feature at a time.
I've never felt the need for an ambi charging handle. I use ambi safeties on all my ARs and my primary rifle is an SR-15. The ambi mag release on that rifle is the best solution I've seen yet for releasing the magazine. For the charging handle, I prefer using one with an extended latch such as the BCM.
I think the brain-lock induced by suddenly using a right hand only gun is way, way overblown. I only have the left hand mag release on one of my rifles, and when I use the others it takes me about .5 seconds to figure it out. In fact, the opposite is sometimes true: I will occasionally hit the right side mag release rather than the left side release when I am running the KAC. Sure, in a "time is life situation" that .5 seconds could be a big deal, but I'm not going to trade the increased efficiency of using a properly configured rifle that I am 99.9% more likely to be using than another rifle that will suddenly drop into my life at the right moment.
The same is true with handguns. I haven't put any rounds through a SIG in years, but I can pick one up and operate it pretty well.
I'm asking because I'm nearly finished with my first AR build and am not sure if I should go with an ambi, which aren't cheap, or a standard charging handle. I've already bought a BCM Gunfighter but I'm seriously considering selling it and picking up a Badger Ordnance.
Off subject, but a little background ... I've done an incredible amount of research on every aspect of my AR build. I was originally going to buy a Del-Ton because of the price and great reviews but the more research I did, the more I wanted to guarantee that my grandchildren would be able to shoot my rifle in 40 years so I decided to go with a DD. This is, in part, why I'm asking. I want to do it right the first time.
I've read both sides to having an ambi CH. Some say to train with a standard CH in case you ever needed to shoot right handed and that they are used to shooting with a standard. Some say to take advantage of having the advantage and go with an ambi. Me personally, I feel an ambi would allow me to charge it on either side. I just don't know if the Badger Ordnance is worth the $70+ price tag.
Also on the subject, I read somewhere that BCM has an ambidextrous charging handle in the works and will be putting it out there this year. Can anyone confirm or deny this rumor?
I would say no. The reason is because the only time the CH is REALLY used (under stress) is for a malfunction clearance. Since these are rare with the invention of more reliable mags, the CH is mostly used for admin type duties like locking the bolt back to clear a chamber or to chamber a round (assuming the the BCG is forward).
C4
I would say no. The reason is because the only time the CH is REALLY used (under stress) is for a malfunction clearance. Since these are rare with the invention of more reliable mags, the CH is mostly used for admin type duties like locking the bolt back to clear a chamber or to chamber a round (assuming the the BCG is forward).
C4
Thanks for the response as well as everyone else who has given their input. It seems like it's more of an opinion more than anything else, considering virtually everyone that has chimed in has a completely different opinion. I'd have to say, sometimes ignorance is bliss ;)
I definitely see the desire to have ambi features for us lefties but I think for now I'm gonna stick with the BCM Mod4 and see how it works. Like I said, I've yet to even fire an AR so I'd like to get the build finished and 'play around' with it to see how it feels.
Me, I'm holding out for the BCM ambi they told me was being designed. They gave me no time line, but I believe I asked them more than 6 mos ago.
I tried to find an update re. the BCM ambi. CH but couldn't find anything. Pat Rogers is running a few on his carbs. but nothing other than that so can anyone post some hands on info., maybe a pic?
Thanks for the response as well as everyone else who has given their input. It seems like it's more of an opinion more than anything else, considering virtually everyone that has chimed in has a completely different opinion. I'd have to say, sometimes ignorance is bliss ;)
I definitely see the desire to have ambi features for us lefties but I think for now I'm gonna stick with the BCM Mod4 and see how it works. Like I said, I've yet to even fire an AR so I'd like to get the build finished and 'play around' with it to see how it feels.
MM offered some great feedback that mirrors my own experience. As a lefty, reaching over the top for a standard CH is problematic when you have optics in the way; no problem really for a folded rear BUIS. I've tried some of the ambi CH's and settled on the BCM Mod 4 because most of my carbines are set up with red dots and folded rear BUIS. The ACLM was the only ambi design that inspired much joy; however, the small latch is tough to pinch with your thumb and index finger when you have the forward assist and an optic in the way. If you had to have an ambi CH right now, I'd take a long look at the new Rainier Raptor (totally kicking myself for missing the initial release!).
Since you already ordered the Gunfighter, use it for a while and see how it works for you. As a lefty, my first ambi mod to the rifle would be a BAD-ASS lever as this is a part that gets used constantly during weapon manipulations. But that is my preference. It's your rifle, so set it up the way that works for you 99.9% of the time. I'd put far less emphasis on the "training scars" argument unless you're LE or active duty military.
Even if you're a cop or .mil the ambi controls make sense to me. I installed ambi safeties on many of our issued carbines, as funds allow. After 1 range day almost everyone who tried the ambi selectors wanted to keep them whether they were right or left handed. The CH issue isn't one I've tried because I've never felt the need, but maybe I will. The ambi mag latch really only helps lefties and does take a bit of training time to learn to utilize efficiently.
As a full time cop and .mil reservist I feel they all have a place, if you can get away with it, which I can as the lead firearms instructor and armorer for my department.
The .mil side is a little different but for my upcoming deployment I have every intention of taking an ambi selector and mag release with me. I take a very small tool kit and armorer tools and will install them before deployment on my issued weapon and remove them prior to demobilization.
HackerF15E
07-03-12, 18:39
I'm a lefty, but I don't have any trouble operating the stock charging handle with either my middle finger, or between my index and thumb.
I also don't use the M4 on duty, so there's really nothing at stake if I can't reliably clear it under stress using that manipulation.
Rainer Arms just released their raptor ambi charging handle. Anyone try one yet. It looks like what I'd like more than the BCM gunfighter. It's expensive and heavy though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ML6X1bhZD6M
Rainer Arms just released their raptor ambi charging handle. Anyone try one yet. It looks like what I'd like more than the BCM gunfighter. It's expensive and heavy though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ML6X1bhZD6M
I have one and it's a terrific upgrade/design. Yes, it's beefy, but only an ounce heavier - and it's there because of some quality, machined steel handles. I'm not a gram geek, so overbuilt is always better than under in my book.
As a lefty, I've never gone ambi before (BCM Gunfighter guy), but am quickly getting used to it in a very good way. Granted, you only use charging handles for the quick rack once in a while, press checks or malfunction clearances, but that motion is cleaner and faster for me now. I'm not trying to make sure I grab the handle the right way. It just goes and is more intuitive. Not a bad thing. YMMV.
richdkim77
07-04-12, 12:46
These are beefy, you can feel that it's a quality made part.
http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af282/richdkim77/0f407c6f.jpg
They are pricey too... after the intro price of $59.99 goes away, they go to $89.99. However, I look at it ths way. When I first started to shoot AR's, I never thought I'd spend $150 for something like a Battle Comp, or $60 for a BADASS. It's worth what you get out of it. I remember spending close to $50 when gunfighters were first hitting the market. I don't think it's a stretch if you want one.
Here it is compared to a standard handle
http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af282/richdkim77/9ac731e8.jpg
Guns-up.50
07-04-12, 17:48
After so many years of using a standard carbine I dont think it would be as efficient to convert everything to ambi. If your muscle memory is set to work the gun with its standard right hand controls, you have a lot of work cut out for yourself trying to change it up. As a lefty my-self I too have bitched about everything being set up for right handed shooters, but all this hype for ambi kit has not got to me. Like I said if you are used to right handed controls and you switch it up you have lots of starting over to do, if not, when under stress you will revert back to your original technique. By then you may be shit out of luck; I am not saying its not possible just will require lots of getting used to.
IMO its a waste of time and money, but who am I....
militarymoron
07-04-12, 18:23
when under stress you will revert back to your original technique.
...and ambi controls will allow you to do just that, which means it's a non-issue.
Guns-up.50
07-04-12, 19:03
...and ambi controls will allow you to do just that, which means it's a non-issue.
I gather what you are saying, on a rifle the safety will function on both sides, just an unnecessary "up-grade"(to me) but to each his own. I guess my main concern would stem from "ambi pistols" which is a whole different topic.
Thanks
FiReBRETHa
07-22-12, 16:01
Rainer Arms just released their raptor ambi charging handle. Anyone try one yet. It looks like what I'd like more than the BCM gunfighter. It's expensive and heavy though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ML6X1bhZD6M
The raptor is so solid it makes the BCM seem floppy. I just wish I could have gotten more at the intro price.
I'm a lefty that's been shooting AR's for over 20 years. All of my builds get Troy ambi mag releases and ambi safeties. To me the mag realease is numero uno followed by the safety. I've tried the various charging handles and for me the gunfighter, 3 or 4, is the best answer.
For the 10+ years I've been shooting/training with the AR platform, this is my take as well.
70% of my AR's are set up with Ambi mag releases and safeties along with GF/Gas Buster CH's.
...and ambi controls will allow you to do just that, which means it's a non-issue.
I find that it's a lot easier, if the controls mirror their original configuration.. Because it's easier to duplicate the movements of your dominant hand with the non-dominant side. As long as the controls are in the same place.
I've heard nothing new on the BCM.
Any news on BCM Gunfighter Ambi? And is it off topic to ask for help choosing ambi safety and mag release? I have a Colt 6920 and made sure the 2-point sling and the light activation were ambi. I'm a lefty.
Get the Raptor it is outstanding.
Toyoland66
11-25-12, 21:59
Any news on BCM Gunfighter Ambi? And is it off topic to ask for help choosing ambi safety and mag release? I have a Colt 6920 and made sure the 2-point sling and the light activation were ambi. I'm a lefty.
BAD-ASS for the safety and either Troy or norgon for the mag release.
I am seriously tempted to get one of these raptor CH's, I am curious though if the weak roll pin issue that the gunfighter design solves could possibly be an issue with the raptor design.
Diver160651A
11-25-12, 22:02
Get the Raptor it is outstanding.
+1 on the Raptor, have both the steel catch models and the aluminum types. Either is great! As a right hander, shouldering rifles on the left, I found this to be easier and more robust than any charging handle I have used!
Jt
Thanks for the response as well as everyone else who has given their input. It seems like it's more of an opinion more than anything else, considering virtually everyone that has chimed in has a completely different opinion. I'd have to say, sometimes ignorance is bliss ;)
I definitely see the desire to have ambi features for us lefties but I think for now I'm gonna stick with the BCM Mod4 and see how it works. Like I said, I've yet to even fire an AR so I'd like to get the build finished and 'play around' with it to see how it feels.
Lefty checking in also. Ive been running the BCM Mod 4's since they came out snd havent tried an ambi CH yet.
The BCM is more the sufficient for me and I typically just come over the top and catch the latch on the side of my index finger. Visually, its like cupping the top of the upper receiver where the latch is between my index finger and thumb and just pull it straight back.
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