shell ejection angle and distance?

[Clobbersauras]

Gentlemen, I would like to hear opinions regarding where a properly gassed and buffered AR should be spitting it's brass. Currently mine is putting them behind me at about four or five O'clock, about five feet away.

My current set up: 10.25 barrel, standard buffer, non-FA bolt. So far it's been perfectly reliable.

[ssracer]

I'm thinking there are going to be many variables that factor into this....mostly related to how fast your BCG is moving (barrel length, gas length, buffer size, ammo, etc)

That said, our two rifles are apples to oranges. Mine is a 16" carbine with a FA carrier and an H2 buffer. Even with relatively low power wolf .223 all of my spent casings wind up in a small area a couple feet ahead of me and a few feet to the right.

[Inuvik]

16" BCM Middy with BCM FA BCG and carbine buffer is very consistent 3:30 about 8' out.

[markm]

Currently mine is putting them behind me at about four or five O'clock, about five feet away.

My current set up: 10.25 barrel, standard buffer, non-FA bolt. So far it's been perfectly reliable.

That's fine. I'm surprised that as shorty with a standard buffer would put the brass there. Usually they bounce empties off the deflector and fly at 2 o'clock.

As stated, there are many factors with the gun and ammo that drive this. And there's no one optimal ejection pattern.

[christcorp]

Mine is the same as Inuvik. My M&P15 using EITHER carbine buffer or my ST-T2 buffer; using either .223 OR 5.56 ammo; lands in the 3:00-4:00 area; about 7-10 feet away. And "Supposedly", the M&P15 is overgassed. I say supposedly, not to say it isn't, but rather that it isn't causing any negative affects, which should be noticed by the ejection pattern. However; having a deflector on most AR's, that will have some affect. But I don't hear or see any BCG slamming. Anyway; my ejection is in a nice neat pile to the side and slightly behind.

[Just a Jarhead]

See pic for ejection pattern chart I had. Obviously as others have stated many factors can influence this. And I also am not sure of what is termed on the chart as a "perfect" pattern.
And another thread from last year on the subject https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=57703
And another from 2009. https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=42660

All the info you'll ever need (or care) to know about ejection patterns in those threads!

[Artiz]

Gentlemen, I would like to hear opinions regarding where a properly gassed and buffered AR should be spitting it's brass. Currently mine is putting them behind me at about four or five O'clock, about five feet away.

My current set up: 10.25 barrel, standard buffer, non-FA bolt. So far it's been perfectly reliable.

You shouldn't think further than this.

[Clobbersauras]

You shouldn't think further than this.

Yeah I know, if it ain't broke don't fix it. But...if you read this site long enough you tend to believe that your SBR WILL fail if you don't use a FA bolt carrier, or H2 buffer. Never mind that it's not an LMT, COLT, BCM, NOVESKE or KAC.:D

Where's the Koolaid?:D

Back to the topic of the thread, thanks for the replies everyone!

[Clobbersauras]

This photo is great - thanks! I know it's a simplified explanation but it's a nice quick and dirty reference.
https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=8511&d=1306182097

[GTifosi]

Interesting.

Why would an M16 carrier fall into the overgassed redzone, yet the rifle was more or less designed/evolved there to production with that carrier in mind?

'Course I might be in error as the chart seems to be geared more toward carbine rather than a rifle, but still, the M16 carrier would be a constant with that. Or at least I don't seem to recall a special carbine specific carrier being available at some point or another.

FWIW, if the brass doesn't dent on a built in/intregal deflector, and doesn't throw it into the 2~12 o'clock zone, I'm content.

[az doug]

Interesting.

Why would an M16 carrier fall into the overgassed redzone, yet the rifle was more or less designed/evolved there to production with that carrier in mind?...

I believe those are suggestions to correct the ejection pattern "problem." The heavier weight of the M-16 carrier to counter and over gassed gun.

[GTifosi]

Ah, yes, that does make sense doesn't it.

Somehow it jumped into my head as the other way around and wouldn't shake loose.

[markm]

This photo is great - thanks! I know it's a simplified explanation but it's a nice quick and dirty reference.

NO.

This MS paint idiotic chart is ****ing retarded. AND.. it's the reason for too many guys buying dumb stuff like Spike buffers, and messing with shit that isn't broke.... or actually creating problems with their gun.

If I ever find the guy who made this chart, I'll kick his dick into the back of his throat. :rolleyes:

[christcorp]

While I don't have a problem with the chart, I agree that it isn't totally indicative of whether your rifle is performing well or not. I believe GTifosi is definitely correct when he mentions that if the brass isn't getting dented; and might I add that the rounds aren't being shot 20-30 feet away, or barely dribbling out of the weapon; then your rifle is working perfectly fine. I bought a spikes ST-T2, but it wasn't to change the ejection pattern. I bought it to eliminate some of the slapping noise, and smooth the recoil a little. And the buffer did exactly that. FWIW: The ejection pattern is exactly the same as it was prior with my carbine buffer. But again; the most important thing is the condition and distance of the empty cases. Not necessarily WHERE it lands.

[Just a Jarhead]

Nobody said the chart was the "end all be all", and nobody said that anyone should strive for the perfect ejection pattern. I never recall anyone on any thread saying that. I have however read, and I do personally believe, the chart could serve a useful purpose to begin to troubleshoot if someone's brass is flying back in their face, or if ejecting at 12:00 it might be an indication that something might be amiss. And hey, if someone is happy getting smacked in the forehead with brass, or if their brass is flying straight in front of them, so be it. However, if someone wanted to change the direction of the ejected brass, for whatever reason, the chart , if used at all, should merely be used as a guide to troubleshoot the issue. If someone is striving for the perfect ejection pattern they have anal issues deeper & waaaay beyond the scope of M4C.com. My brass ejection just happens to be "perfect" though..LOL. I swear I didn't fiddle with it, it was perfect all by itself.

I'm not a "perfect" human being. Doesn't mean I'm not a good human being though! Okay ..I'll settle for fairly decent or acceptable!

A little something from ArmaLite on the subject:
http://www.armalite.com/images/Tech%20Notes%5CTech%20Note%2034,%20Adjusting%20the%20Ejection%20Pattern%20of%20the%20AR-10%20%E2%80%A6.pdf

[Just a Jarhead]

So according to the ArmaLite technical bulletin, they do have an "ideal" ejection pattern that they strive for. (The word ideal is probably much more suited than perfect.) It's 1:00-3:00.

This beginning pattern which new weapons are inspected for, with good ammo and fresh springs obviously allows for spring wear and lower powered ammo. Once the rounds start being ejected at 5:00, according to this technical bulletin, perhaps it's time to replace parts and move it back to 1-3.

We can argue with the technical bulletin all we want Let's keep in mind they invented the M16/AR15 weapon.

[dhrith]

If your shit's working flawlessly I'd be less worried about "where" it was ejecting, and just being sure to monitor "when" it changes. ;p

[Just a Jarhead]

For the most part I get what you're saying. But I'm not so sure if I had a weapon ejecting at 5:00 or south thereof, or 1:00 or north thereof with fresh parts that that wouldn't warrant some corrective action. Although the 5:00 would bother me more as in the OP's case & first post in this thread. I think I'd be trying to get that thing more closer to 3:00 to allow for wear. I'd at least be trying to get it off 5:00 so they're not spittin in my face or banging all over the place at the most inopportune time as murphy will do.

[Clobbersauras]

Some interesting replies in this thread.:D

[skeet25]

Under what conditions will ejected brass hit the brass deflector?

[sgtjosh]

Gentlemen, I would like to hear opinions regarding where a properly gassed and buffered AR should be spitting it's brass. Currently mine is putting them behind me at about four or five O'clock, about five feet away.

My current set up: 10.25 barrel, standard buffer, non-FA bolt. So far it's been perfectly reliable.


If it is reliable and shoots well, does it matter where the brass goes?

[JSantoro]

If anybody notices some missing posts, I ditched the ones where some bunch of 'mos were either metaphorically displaying or talking about their wedding tackle.

Take the hint.

[Just a Jarhead]

If it is reliable and shoots well, does it matter where the brass goes?

In the end, I'm sure most will agree that this whole discussion is trivial. But someone asked a question and a discussion was started. And as we all know, no question is stupid. That's how we all learn. It was actually a good question given all the differing "opinions" on the subject.

Things are designed to certain specs for a reason. The tires on your vehicle may be engineered "ideally" for 32 psi. Will there be much negative consequences if you run them at 30 or 28 psi? Of course not, but ideally they were designed for optimal gas mileage, wear, balance etc at 32 psi. Armalite also designed the "ideal" pattern that they strive for to be 1-3 for a reason...to allow for wear.

I can also think of one situaton where the ejection pattern may matter more. Anyone running an offset mount optic of any type. You cant that rifle 45 degrees and if your brass is already spittin out at 5:00 or south, that hot brass is now coming dangerously close to your forehead and not over your ear or head.

So yea it can matter IMHO. But I'm sure others will say if you pull the trigger and it goes "bang" it's fine just shoot it.

[Just a Jarhead]

Another thought...Is it better to have brass flying into your field of vision (1:00-2:00) or out of your FOV (3:00 and beyond)?

From a tactical standpoint, who can successfully argue against the premise that the optimal situation is that the only thing moving in your FOV, in a tense situation, is the BG or enemy combatant?

Looking back at the much disputed chart of "the perfect ejection pattern", I can see why whoever created that chart listed the 3:00-4:30 as the perfect ejection pattern. If there is such a thing as, or we're trying to theoretically define "the perfect ejection pattern", I'm inclined to agree, it allows for wear and keeps your FOV unobstructed, or distracted. Of course if your weapons are strictly for bench shooting or shooting coyotes none of this matters. But in a tactical situation, every advantage helps! No matter how slight.

[eternal24k]

That's fine. I'm surprised that as shorty with a standard buffer would put the brass there. Usually they bounce empties off the deflector and fly at 2 o'clock.

As stated, there are many factors with the gun and ammo that drive this. And there's no one optimal ejection pattern.

+1,
also surprised where it is ejecting to, but if its running dont mess with it.

[duece71]

Would ammo choice come into factor here?? My DD threw brass to my 3:30 at about 7'. When I switched to Wolf, Tula etc.....most were 1-2 o'clock and even a few "dribbled" out of the port. Needless to say my DD did NOT like steel case.

[Just a Jarhead]

Of course..that was mentioned several times in the various threads.

In addition, not only will the powder charge of different ammo have an effect on the action and thus ejection, but the brass cases are slightly heavier than steel as well so the lighter steel could be getting flung faster and harder which is why the more forward ejection. The one iffy variable is that steel case ammo is often underpowered in compared to xm193 or other milspec ammo which would normally cause the carrier group to close slower and tend to eject gentler and towards 6:00. Hard (no impossible) to diagnose without knowing the specifics of both brands of ammo. But then another variable is thrown into the mix because steel is harder than brass and the ejection of steel is believed to be harder on weapons.

The only time I would take any of this to heart is if your weapon is a shtf, HD or duty weapon. Knowing where the cases spit with different kinds of ammo can be, may be useful to some of us. I've outlined all the logic, reasoning and evidence throughout this thread. However, we'll probably see some come along and state that this whole thread is one big waste of time without producing one shred of evidence or logical, intelligent reason where the information is flawed. That's just to be expected I've learned. Not a slam on anyone just a factual observation in a few short months. Most on this site are great but there's always a few in every crowd! I love this site though. I'm a former Marine and have been shooting this weapon for over 30 years and I have learned much through this site. Doesn't matter how much you think you know, there's always something to learn.

IF I were to tweak at all, (everybody see that big bolded italicized IF?) it would be the good ammo, know where it lands, and shoot the crap out of the cheap stuff and don't give a crap where the cheap stuff lands.

[munch520]

Would ammo choice come into factor here?? My DD threw brass to my 3:30 at about 7'. When I switched to Wolf, Tula etc.....most were 1-2 o'clock and even a few "dribbled" out of the port. Needless to say my DD did NOT like steel case.

I had about the same...all cases (steel or brass) were flying out at 330 but steel flew about half as far

[Just a Jarhead]

+1,
but if its running dont mess with it.

Why not? Frankly I don't understand this timid intrepidation to experiment, have fun and learn by changing a few parts or springs or cutting springs. Its completely reversible.

The rule of troubleshooting anything is to change 1 thing at a time, observe the effect. You can always put it back the way it was if you don't like the desired effect. No one is suggesting opening up gas ports or something permanent. Do it, have fun. learn and grow your confidence in your weapon and get it to exactly how you want it if you can. For the most part we're talking about very minor tweaks.

[JSantoro]

Because ejection pattern can be a symptom of an undesirable state of the gun, but is not in and of itself an undesirable state if it does not result in brass that travels X distance (+/-Y) and in Z degrees from the port.

What's getting lost, and is continually getting lost, is that it's only ONE possible symptom. If other symptoms exist, then it's one that can be used as a rough kinda-sorta diagnostic tool, but if no other symptoms exist (much less an identifiable problem, to begin with), folks will start cranking on sticks and end up with a problem that would not otherwise have existed if they'd just cared a bit more for where their bullets were going, instead of the brass.

Needless dicking about can start masking things. I think it's less an admonition to not experiment than it is one to be very methodical if one does decide to do so.

[Just a Jarhead]

I think it's less an admonition to not experiment than it is one to be very methodical if one does decide to do so.

That really is the key! Go slow and methodical. 1 thing at a time.

[UVvis]

Remember that condition of your extractor, extractor spring, insert, and o-ring (if being used) as well as the ejector and spring, and lubrication of the above can play a factor.

Not that I care, but I've also noticed that different ammo types, steel versus brass casings, hotter loads, all will make a difference where that empty case goes.

If the brass is barely leaving the weapon and landing right beside your feet, then you should start troubleshooting. Some of the service rifle/highpower guys will but ejector springs down so their brass doesn't eject as far and ejects in tighter clumps. Their goal in this is to make the brass easier to police. Go figure.