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I just received my Trust and want to start the process to build a SBR. My question is when you buy a new lower do you fill out the paper work for the lower with your name or do you fill it out using the trust, not the form 1 but the paper work you fill out at the dealer, or do you just use the form 1 from the get go? Thanks
Robb Jensen
10-11-07, 15:56
I just received my Trust and want to start the process to build a SBR. My question is when you buy a new lower do you fill out the paper work for the lower with your name or do you fill it out using the trust, not the form 1 but the paper work you fill out at the dealer, or do you just use the form 1 from the get go? Thanks
You buy the lower as an individual, engrave with the trusts name add it to the trust property. Then send in your 2 form 1s, CoC, a copy of your Schedule A and a copy of the Declaration of Trust and a check for $200.00
Pretty much what gotm4 said except wait until after approval until engraving and adding to sch. A
Robb's method works well for those of us who know what will happen once we send the paperwork in. For anyone else, Madsmiley is a little more correct.
You really don't want to engrave the lower with personal info until you know for sure you're approved. that way you can sell the lower at any time. It can be sold later but it will have your info and it will look like an NFA item although it's not.
You are technically supposed to add the items to your trust when the trust actually owns them. A silencer is technically owned as soon as the dealer is paid. You just can't take possession. But, you aren't allowed to manufacture the SBR until the paperwork is approved so "technically" there is no SBR to own and therefore put into the schedule until the paperwork is approved.
But basically this could all theoretically happen at the same time and noone's going to care down the road how it came about- just don't go assembling anything too early. the schedule a and engraving can be done a little early. assembly can't.
nationwide
10-12-07, 05:59
A thing to consider regarding having your lower engraved...
If you wait until after you get your stamp, the lower will be an NFA item, and you cannot "drop it off" or "mail it off" to have the engraving done unless the party you hand it to is a Type 7/Class 2 FFL (shit, I hope those numbers are right!!!) but they must be a licensed MANUFACTURER of NFA items, ie. paid the special occupational tax to ATF.
My advise is to get it engraved NOW, because it's just a title 1 firearm, and there are very few limitations on transfer or posession...
Just food for thought...
Robb Jensen
10-12-07, 06:06
A thing to consider regarding having your lower engraved...
If you wait until after you get your stamp, the lower will be an NFA item, and you cannot "drop it off" or "mail it off" to have the engraving done unless the party you hand it to is a Type 7/Class 2 FFL (shit, I hope those numbers are right!!!) but they must be a licensed MANUFACTURER of NFA items, ie. paid the special occupational tax to ATF.
My advise is to get it engraved NOW, because it's just a title 1 firearm, and there are very few limitations on transfer or posession...
Just food for thought...
That's the EXACT reason why I have it engraved first.
You buy the lower as an individual, engrave with the trusts name add it to the trust property. Then send in your 2 form 1s, CoC, a copy of your Schedule A and a copy of the Declaration of Trust and a check for $200.00
Why 2 from 1s? What is a CoC? Thanks for all the help this forum has really helped me get this process going.
they keep a copy you get a copy
Pretty much what gotm4 said except wait until after approval until engraving and adding to sch. A
Although not the same type of NFA scenario... I listed my Silencer as the Asset in my trust on my Sch A and had it approved. (I know technically I don't have it at the time)
Recently there's been chatter about the ATF wanting to see the Sch A with the trust paper work. It would be pointless to send a blank Sch A??
chrismartin
10-12-07, 13:40
Recently there's been chatter about the ATF wanting to see the Sch A with the trust paper work. It would be pointless to send a blank Sch A??
In some states (Like VA) you can't have an empty trust. That's one of the reasons why Willmaker forces you to put something in. Now, if you are form 1'ing your lower, you can add the lower to the trust to being with. You don't have to only have NFA items on your trust. Anything you add can be property of the trust. I'll be adding non-NFA firearms to mine.
Also, I like to get my lowers engraved before the form 1's are sent out. If UPS looses a lower that's already registered, I loose a $200 stamp (potentially anyway, most carriers insurance terms like to pay replacement value, I'm sure they would fight the stamp costs.)
Although not the same type of NFA scenario... I listed my Silencer as the Asset in my trust on my Sch A and had it approved. (I know technically I don't have it at the time)
Recently there's been chatter about the ATF wanting to see the Sch A with the trust paper work. It would be pointless to send a blank Sch A??
Ive got 2 pending now and these are the first Ive had to send in a copy of my sch A..I dont have the pending items listed,just the items already approved on it...I think their whole thought process behind this is to just to make sure people are actually updating the trust as they are supposed to..
A thing to consider regarding having your lower engraved...
If you wait until after you get your stamp, the lower will be an NFA item, and you cannot "drop it off" or "mail it off" to have the engraving done unless the party you hand it to is a Type 7/Class 2 FFL (shit, I hope those numbers are right!!!) but they must be a licensed MANUFACTURER of NFA items, ie. paid the special occupational tax to ATF.
My advise is to get it engraved NOW, because it's just a title 1 firearm, and there are very few limitations on transfer or posession...
Just food for thought...
This is a very good point also..
On top of that if the engraver screws it up you dont have a POS NFA lower.
Although not the same type of NFA scenario... I listed my Silencer as the Asset in my trust on my Sch A and had it approved. (I know technically I don't have it at the time)
Recently there's been chatter about the ATF wanting to see the Sch A with the trust paper work. It would be pointless to send a blank Sch A??
If I owned no NFA I and I was attempting to manufacture an SBR I would most definitely send them a blank Schedule A.
If it were a silencer, the trust would already own it so it should be on there.
If I do an SBR, they'll only see what I do own now. If I do another suppressor, they'll see it as well as what I own now.
In some states (Like VA) you can't have an empty trust. That's one of the reasons why Willmaker forces you to put something in. Now, if you are form 1'ing your lower, you can add the lower to the trust to being with. You don't have to only have NFA items on your trust. Anything you add can be property of the trust. I'll be adding non-NFA firearms to mine.
Also, I like to get my lowers engraved before the form 1's are sent out. If UPS looses a lower that's already registered, I loose a $200 stamp (potentially anyway, most carriers insurance terms like to pay replacement value, I'm sure they would fight the stamp costs.)
How do you remove that non-NFA lower when it becomes an NFA item? You can't just sell it!
I have another question. Is there any specific guide lines concerning the engraving, like how deep the engraving must be cut or how big the lettering must be or, is it ok any way as long as you have the info on the lower? Thanks.
I have another question. Is there any specific guide lines concerning the engraving, like how deep the engraving must be cut or how big the lettering must be or, is it ok any way as long as you have the info on the lower? Thanks.
I belive this is still current,some of you others please verify.
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/atf_marking_reg.txt
SUMMARY: The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) is proposing
to amend the regulations to prescribe minimum height and depth
requirements for identification markings placed on firearms by licensed
importers and licensed manufacturers. Specifically, we are proposing a
minimum height of 3/32 inch and a minimum depth of .005 inch for
serial numbers and a minimum depth of .005 inch for all other required
markings. We believe that such minimum standards are necessary to
ensure that firearms are properly identified in accordance with the
law. In addition, the proposed regulations, if adopted, will facilitate
our ability to trace the origin of firearms used in crime.
i beleave if you have a registered sbr lower reciever and you want to turn in back into a class 1 firearm again you just write to ATF to remove it from the register, and you are out 200.00 for the tax stamp. I would just keep it and if somebody wants to buy it have him/her do the Form 4. That way you don't limit yourself to a barrel length and caliber.
chrismartin
10-15-07, 08:54
How do you remove that non-NFA lower when it becomes an NFA item? You can't just sell it!
Sure you can. You just transfer the item on a form 4 to the buyer just as you would any other NFA device. If you were selling it as a non-NFA, you would have to return it to non-NFA lengths, and as keatsabn stated you write a letter to the ATF removing the device from NFA registry and sell it.
In the case of AR15's though, that doesn't make much sense (selling an NFA complete SBR in non-SBR fashion, removing it from the NFA, swapping in a 16" barrel, etc.). A new non-NFA lower is less than $200 and you need to put a 16" barrel on it anyway, so if you were transferring the non-NFA AR, it would be cheaper to just swap the parts into a new lower and 16" barrel. So, even if you had all the parts laying around, removing from the NFA registry would cost you $200 (loss of tax stamp costs) vs. buying a new stripped lower <$200. I'd just keep the lower in the NFA and in the safe and keep my $200 investment.
Plus, I doubt anyone would buy a NFA lower with my trust's name all over it. They might buy a factory SBR, but that's a different story.
ALSO remember that 2008 and the Dem's most likely will get into office and some form of a gun ban will come into effect. So my thoughts are sell HELL, buy more brother buy more. Just my 2 cents.
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