View Full Version : Thoughts on a J Frame instead of a sub-compact Glock?
I'm considering picking up something smaller for my next purchase.
Due to my work environment and subsequent wardrobe requirements my G17 is less than ideal for daily carry.
I have always had an appreciation for wheel guns and Smith & Wesson wheel guns and am considering a 442 to fill my perceived need. I think that .38spcl and .38spcl +p are suitable defensive calibers although not necessarily my ideal cartridge. I also think that the size, weight, etc with a proper ankle or pocket holster would make a pretty handy package that I'd probably rarely be without.
That said, in the back of my mind I keep telling myself to get a G26 instead. There is the convenience of a common caliber, the fact that I could use my primary mags as reloads, and I find the sub-compact Glocks to be quite accurate, reliable, and surprisingly easy for me to shoot even with my large hands.
I previously carried a G27 as a compliment to my issued duty G22 both as a BUG and as a CCW piece off-duty. It worked pretty well in this role but more so in the uniformed BUG role that the CCW piece. I never found it to conceal terribly well on the ankle or in a pocket. It was just to bulky and well blocky.
This leads me back to the 442. For those of you who have or have had or carried both what experience can you lend? (I've never owned or carried a revolver.) What did you settle on and why? Would I be selling myself short with a lower capacity, heavier trigger pull, DAO revolver?
Thanks for any insights you can offer!
caddishatch
05-24-11, 20:32
I carry both a 442 and a G27. I love sliding the 442 in my back pocket of my 511 shorts and pants. I also have a Galco Tuc holster that I love wearing inside the waistband. I love wearing my G27 both inside the waistband and outside. I just got a outside the belt holster from Dillon that is made by Mitch Rosen that I love. I wore a t-shirt over the top the other day and you could not see the print of the G27. Honestly I wear both of them equally. It really depends on what I am wearing. Both of them get worn during the summer and winter. Most of the time during the winter I wear either my G23 or G19 in a Mitch Rosen holster. When I travel they both come with me along with my G20. So to sum things up you really can't go wrong with either. I prefer both.
caddishatch
05-24-11, 20:37
That being said- I am a firm believer that a J frame is a great self defense weapon. There is a great book out called "The Shooter's Guide to Airweight J-Frames" by Stephan A. Camp. He really does a nice job talking about the benefits of this gun.
On duty there is almost always a G27 on my ankle. When I'm off duty however, I still prefer to carry a full size gun and a BUG. If I'm wearing shorts, there is a J-frame in my pocket. Tried the baby Glock in the pocket routine and for me it's too wide. If you wear cargo pants/shorts, the pocket holster found here may work for you:
http://www.pocketholsters.com/Glock_Pocket-Wallet_Holster/glock_pocket-wallet_holster.html It fits perfectly in 5.11 pants cargo pockets.
Too many people overlook the J-frame IMO, though it seems to be gathering more fans lately. But if you want a pocket gun and don't want a revolver, I believe the Glocks are excluded unless you are the size of an NBA player or professional wrestler (with baggy clothes).
You mentioned ammunition... FWIW check out the Gold Dot 135gr +P. NYPD uses it in their snubbies and it was developed specifically for 2" barrels.
My main ccw is a G23, which for my size, suits me well. However, there are times when my attire, situation, comfort, or convenience lead me to carrying a 442. I have a Tuff pocket holster which grips nicely to the inside of the pocket, and subdues the outline of the revolver. I like it in the cargo pocket of my shorts, and works well in the front pocket of dress pants. As a private citizen carrying for the unlikely event of needing to defend myself, I feel the 5 rounds of .38+p is adequate.
On duty there is almost always a G27 on my ankle.
What holster do you use.
I carry both a 442 and a G27. I love sliding the 442 in my back pocket of my 511 shorts and pants. I also have a Galco Tuc holster that I love wearing inside the waistband. I love wearing my G27 both inside the waistband and outside. I just got a outside the belt holster from Dillon that is made by Mitch Rosen that I love. I wore a t-shirt over the top the other day and you could not see the print of the G27. Honestly I wear both of them equally. It really depends on what I am wearing. Both of them get worn during the summer and winter. Most of the time during the winter I wear either my G23 or G19 in a Mitch Rosen holster. When I travel they both come with me along with my G20. So to sum things up you really can't go wrong with either. I prefer both.
I really liked the G27 too but waistband carry is out for work and more formal occasions which is where this pistol would be carried. If I were going to go to waistband carry I'd stick with my G17 or another full size handgun.
I really like my MP340.
+1. I love my M&P 340. I have an apex duty trigger kit that I plan on putting in it. I've carried it everyday since it came out.
I also have a LCR that I'm toying with. I love the hogue tamer grips on the LCR and the trigger pull is nice. The whole trigger reset/rebound thing is a little weird. I have continually failed to allow the trigger to completely reset a few times. Once I've put a few hundred rounds through it, then I may start using it as a carry gun.
You can't go wrong with a centennial j-frame. I had a 442 and a 642. Great guns, just had to sell them to fund other projects. I love the simplicity of the snubbies. I've never had an issue with one. Boringly reliable.
sandsunsurf
05-24-11, 21:01
One downside of the 442 not yet mentioned is the recoil. It's NOT a pleasure to shoot, like the G26 is. 30 to 50 rounds of training ammo is okay, but you might have a blister in the web or bloody thumb. 30 to 50 rounds of carry ammo will almost certainly leave a mark! Once a year I shoot fifty rounds of +P through my 642 and I usually don't wear gloves, and it flat out sucks. Even in winter and wearing gloves, when shooting the +P something on my hand will be injured.
But the J-frame does get the nod for concealability- for summertime carry with just shorts and a tshirt, appendix carry is very concealed.
I really like my MP340.
Ditto. Easy to conceal regardless of attire assuming you have a good selection of quality holsters. I find 38 Special (+P) easy to control and accurate.
SeriousStudent
05-24-11, 21:21
I have a G26, a 642 and a Model 60 in .357 with a 2-inch barrel. The 642 gets carried much more often than the other two.
I'll second the choice of adding an Apex Tactical J frame kit. I had one installed in my 642, and it has definitely improved the trigger.
I'm going to the range Friday to see what the improved action does to my group size.
The Dumb Gun Collector
05-24-11, 21:29
It is my belief that most folks (including me) need to be carrying either a superlight J-frame or a Kahr PM9. Most of the larger guns are just too tempting to leave behind.
Would I be selling myself short with a lower capacity, heavier trigger pull, DAO revolver?
Ultimately yes, compared to a G26. Compared to not carrying anything, no you're not selling yourself short.
The J frame is hard to shoot well, it has a cramped grip, small sights and a heavy trigger pull. The LCR is a little easier to shoot well due to the trigger geometry. I think it has a slightly longer trigger reach which allows me to shoot it like a K or L frame, rather than having to cock my trigger finger way out with the subsequent shots pulling to the right that I get with a J. With either the standard or boot grip, it has less felt recoil and is easier to practice with than a 340 or 442.
The G26 carries 2X as much of slightly more powerful cartridge. It has easy to see sights that can be easily replaced with decent tritium sights. It is heavy in the pocket though and for me only fits in baggy pants/shorts pockets. I'm often hitching the pants up. You might try a tuckable inside the waistband holster like a Comp tac MTAC.
FWIW check out the Gold Dot 135gr +P. NYPD uses it in their snubbies and it was developed specifically for 2" barrels.
I have some of this that I use in a 442-2. Seems like good stuff.
My only J-fames are a pair of 442-2s (no lock). I rarely carry them because my G-26 hides well enough when I want something smaller.
I know I'm in the minority, but the J-frames shoot pretty well for me out to 7-10 yards. Past that and I have to slow down to get good hits.
Realistically, a 5 shot J-frame would probably be plenty sufficient for any encounter I may have in my lifetime, but I carry a Glock 19 anyway. I just like my Glock I guess.
S&W 340PD in .357 Magnum over the G26 any day of the week. Especially for ankle or pocket carry.
NavyDavy55
05-24-11, 22:44
I carry a S&E 442 in a Nemesis pocket holster.
It conceals well, draws smooth, and is actually comfortable to carry.
It is my belief that most folks (including me) need to be carrying either a superlight J-frame or a Kahr PM9. Most of the larger guns are just too tempting to leave behind.
Agreed, I got rid of my Airweight a couple of years ago and replaced it with a G26. Bad decision on my part. I ended up carrying my G19 just as easy and more often but was also without the Airweight for easier carry during the hot summer months. I look forward to another snub in the future.
I guess I'm in the minority on this but I've never found my snubbies to be any easier to carry/conceal than my G26. Maybe a tiny difference in the pocket but minimal and I shoot the G26 much better. Nothing wrong with a J frame but given the choice I would go with the 26, I carried one on my ankle for about 4 years.
I have both too and feel most folks could benefit from both depending on situation. M&P340 or other S&W wheel guns weigh half as much and can be carried with any shorts or outfit. It is also twice as difficult to shoot well and requires practice. maybe 3x more difficult.
The sub compacts weigh almost as much as service size guns, and can be shot almost as well.
Summer is coming on, get you a small wheel gun and a neoprene Blackhawk holster and bring on the heat! And go have fun learning to shoot that little Tiger.
LanceOregon
05-25-11, 03:18
Other pistols that you could consider would be the new Sig P290, and also a Walther PPS with the short flush magazine installed in it, instead of the standard medium length magazine.
The Walther PPS is actually no longer than a S&W J frame revolver. So if you are comfortable carrying a J frame in the pocket, you could fit a PPS in just as well. The PPS is also very thin, much thinner than a J frame, which has a bulge from the cylinder.
Here is a photo showing a Walther PPS below a S&W J frame, so you can see exactly how it compares:
http://i52.tinypic.com/2d9qzyq.jpg
Note that another benefit that the PPS has is that despite it having the same overall length, its sight radius is much longer, thus enhancing accuracy.
The Walther PPS is also similar in size to the Glock 26/27, except that it is dramatically thinner than the Baby Glocks. Here is a comparison showing a Baby Glock next to the Walther PPS, and the difference is most obvious to see:
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s272/lanceJOregon/guns/G26_PPSa.jpg
The Walther PPS also has the advantage of having the same type of pre-cocked Striker trigger system that the Glocks have. So if you are used to using a Glock trigger, you will be right at home with a Walther PPS. The pistol even breaks down for assembly in the same way as the Glock. You can have it ready for cleaning within a few seconds.
And it is also available in both 9mm and .40 S&W The short ( flush ) magazine holds 6 +1 in 9mm, and 5 +1 in .40 S&W. The standard length mag increases those figures to 7 +1 and 6 +1, respectively.
Here is a photo of my Walther PPS in .40 S&W, but with the longer standard length magazine inserted in it:
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s272/lanceJOregon/guns/DSC_4363n2.jpg
Here is a photo showing what it looks like with the short, flush fitting magazine inserted:
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a73/Laserlips/100_8012.jpg
If you want to learn more about the Sig P290 and what it has to offer, here is a pretty good review of it that was recently uploaded to YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=wWizv9qk4N4
Its advantage over the PPS is that it is significantly shorter in length. But it uses a long, heavy DAO trigger pull. So you would have to adapt to a different type of trigger than what you have currently have with Glock.
.
ROCKET20_GINSU
05-25-11, 04:06
I was in the same dilemma a couple of months ago and I ended up selling my 26. I liked the 26, it was the subcompact that I could shoot almost as good as my FS guns. I had a terrific FIST pocket holster for it; however, I found that despite these advantages, in the role of a BUG, I liked carrying my 642 much more.
The J-frame to me is the perfect pocket gun and works very well as a low threat or NPE firearm. Because the grip on the 26 is pretty fat, I had a hard time getting a true grip on the pistol while in the pocket and presenting it in an uninhibited fashion. And when carrying the 26 in a pocket holster it looked and felt like a brick. By contrast I can present the J-frame much easier because the grip is smaller and thinner and my fist around the gun does not hang up on my pockets. If I preemptively have my hand in my pocket I can pull .8-.9 draws from concealment all day on a target at 3-5m.
I found that while it was a tad easier to hid the 26 IWB vs. the 19; however, I liked the full grip, higher capacity, light rail, and longer sight radius of the 19. And with a good holster it was not much more difficult to hid IWB than a 26; consequently, if it's going on the hip, I favor the 19.
If I was in a more dangerous profession, or if I was issued a FS glock 9mm, I would consider the 26 as a bug; however, if you live a low threat lifestyle the J-frame is tough to beat. True it is much more difficult to shoot and reload; however, its the gun I carry most because it is light, potent and easy to carry (I even use it as my running gun). I love that I can carry it regardless of what I am wearing and where I am going.
QuietShootr
05-25-11, 07:21
I'm considering picking up something smaller for my next purchase.
Due to my work environment and subsequent wardrobe requirements my G17 is less than ideal for daily carry.
I have always had an appreciation for wheel guns and Smith & Wesson wheel guns and am considering a 442 to fill my perceived need. I think that .38spcl and .38spcl +p are suitable defensive calibers although not necessarily my ideal cartridge. I also think that the size, weight, etc with a proper ankle or pocket holster would make a pretty handy package that I'd probably rarely be without.
That said, in the back of my mind I keep telling myself to get a G26 instead. There is the convenience of a common caliber, the fact that I could use my primary mags as reloads, and I find the sub-compact Glocks to be quite accurate, reliable, and surprisingly easy for me to shoot even with my large hands.
I previously carried a G27 as a compliment to my issued duty G22 both as a BUG and as a CCW piece off-duty. It worked pretty well in this role but more so in the uniformed BUG role that the CCW piece. I never found it to conceal terribly well on the ankle or in a pocket. It was just to bulky and well blocky.
This leads me back to the 442. For those of you who have or have had or carried both what experience can you lend? (I've never owned or carried a revolver.) What did you settle on and why? Would I be selling myself short with a lower capacity, heavier trigger pull, DAO revolver?
Thanks for any insights you can offer!
No, you wouldn't be. I have a 340PD in .357 that I think is the ultimate BUG. Nothing else has that kind of power, and no other serious gun weighs 11 ounces. In dress pants, weight is as big a consideration as size. A subcompact Glock weighs almost as much as a G19, so for me if I can carry a G26 I can carry a G19...so I do. But when I can't carry the G19, the 340PD goes anywhere.
ghettomedic
05-25-11, 08:59
Due to the small size, relatively stout recoil, almost non-existent sights (on the 442/642 at least, 340 is a bit better) and DA trigger a j-frame is a tough gun to learn to shoot quickly and accurately. I think the choruses of "It's a revolver" and "Five for sure" tend to influence people into thinking they don't need to fire 500 rounds through their j-frame to prove its reliability and in the process familiarize themselves with the manual of arms and unique characteristics of the small revolver.
While I am recalcitrant to offer hardware solutions to software problems, there are two items that greatly improve the suitability of the j-frame revolver for self-defense usage: Crimson Trace lasergrips and the Apex Tactical Duty/Carry kit.
The lasergrips are of obvious benefit in a low-light situation but my experience has been they are visible outside on all but the brightest days. While the laser is IN NO WAY an appropriate substitute for learning and training with the revolver's traditional sight picture, the laser does provide a valuable secondary means of projectile direction for those who have vision problems, the less-well trained or when firing in unconventional positions. The use of the lasergrips on the small-frame revolver is quickly gaining popularity, even among the oldest of the "old-school" crowd. Our own LAV considers them a must-have on a small-frame revolver.
The Apex kit is also becoming a must-have item for those who regularly carry a j-frame. The primary obstacle most new- to intermediate-shooters have with the J-frame is the long, heavy DA trigger is like a swimming pool filled with margaritas, low-riders and free healthcare; El Snatcho is bound to crash the party sooner or later. A lot of CCW neophytes (having been sold on the J-frame by a clueless LGS clerk) fire a box or two of ammo through their new purchase, see that the target looks like you threw a handful of buckshot at it and conclude that 1) the short-barrel is inaccurate and 2) the J-frame is an "arms-length" gun. The Apex kit mitigates the long DA pull significantly while still retaining the weight and length of pull that I feel comfortable with on a pocket or AIWB gun and when combined with the CT grips you can make 25 yard A-zone hits on an IDPA target all day long with the little snub.
For LE use, carrying the j-frame as a BUG means it may be used while engaged in a "F'ed Up Tangle", while wounded, while at odd angles or under or around cover such as a vehicle. For CCW use, the j-frame BUG may be used in the same situations and can also be used to provide an easy-to-operate weapon for a friend or family member who left their piece at home.
I prefer the J-frame over the Glock 26/27 for pocket carry because:
1. The J frame grip is easier/faster to slip your hand around when in the pocket.
2. The Glock 26/27 seems to print more, even with pockets that have been deepened by a tailor.
3. The back of the Glock's frame is blockier and has flat planes and sharp points that could get snagged in the pocket if you are not drawing it from an ideal angle.
I have a full weight J frame that I have been carrying since 1990somtheing.
I guess I'm in the minority on this but I've never found my snubbies to be any easier to carry/conceal than my G26. Maybe a tiny difference in the pocket but minimal and I shoot the G26 much better. Nothing wrong with a J frame but given the choice I would go with the 26, I carried one on my ankle for about 4 years.
Yes, since getting a G26 last Summer, I have not yet had to spend a day limited to my J frame, regardless of dresscode. A couple hours here and there like running maybe. 'bout it.
If you are legally authorized to carry a handgun, take advantage of that right and carry an effective one.
As I have recently written at elsewhere, many folks are content with a J-frame or small .380 in the pocket when off-duty or for casual CCW when needing to quickly run an errand, but really don’t feel a need to be armed—like when your spouse sends you down to the local market for a carton of milk, when you run down to the nearest service station to get gas, or when stopping by a friend’s house to watch a game. What’s not to like; J-frames are just so light, compact, and easy to carry.
A few weeks ago I was out in the evening walking our dog through a wooded area near our neighborhood. Unfortunately, a group of seven older teenage boys had also decided to visit the woods to get drunk and high that night. Evidently, the belligerent punks were inebriated enough to become a bit aggressive and bellicose. They were lurking in the shadows as I came around a bend in the trail and churlishly attempted to block my passage and harass me.
Now, I’d like to think my authoritative presence, strong vocal commands, and Surefire L4 flashing in their eyes de-escalated the situation, but in reality it was likely my snarling black lab who decided she did NOT like her walk being intruded upon by rude interlopers. As the jerks slinked away, I reflected on the situation I had just found myself in--a number of years ago, a man out for an evening stroll was beaten to death by a half a dozen intoxicated delinquents not far from where I stood.
I began to contemplate what might have happened if my recent situation had moved from merely an uncomfortable encounter to a life threatening attack. There was a time I might have just stuck a J-frame in my pocket for a quick walk with the dog. With seven of them and only one of me, the thought of only 5 shots in a J-frame suddenly did not feel too comforting. Fortunately, I now rely on a G19, as I find it almost as easy to carry as a J-frame and no harder to conceal than a G26. If this situation had taken a turn for the worse and gone badly, the 15 rounds on tap in a G19--equivalent to carrying three J-frames--was far more confidence inspiring than having to rely on a 5 shot J-frame. As is often said, quantity has a quality all of its own.
My bottom line is this: while I still love J-frames as a BUG to another primary handgun, I am NOT comfortable relying on one as my primary carry weapon. Long live the “new” J-frame—my G19!
QuietShootr
05-26-11, 06:39
If you are legally authorized to carry a handgun, take advantage of that right and carry an effective one.
As I have recently written at elsewhere, many folks are content with a J-frame or small .380 in the pocket when off-duty or for casual CCW when needing to quickly run an errand, but really don’t feel a need to be armed—like when your spouse sends you down to the local market for a carton of milk, when you run down to the nearest service station to get gas, or when stopping by a friend’s house to watch a game. What’s not to like; J-frames are just so light, compact, and easy to carry.
A few weeks ago I was out in the evening walking our dog through a wooded area near our neighborhood. Unfortunately, a group of seven older teenage boys had also decided to visit the woods to get drunk and high that night. Evidently, the belligerent punks were inebriated enough to become a bit aggressive and bellicose. They were lurking in the shadows as I came around a bend in the trail and churlishly attempted to block my passage and harass me.
Now, I’d like to think my authoritative presence, strong vocal commands, and Surefire L4 flashing in their eyes de-escalated the situation, but in reality it was likely my snarling black lab who decided she did NOT like her walk being intruded upon by rude interlopers. As the jerks slinked away, I reflected on the situation I had just found myself in--a number of years ago, a man out for an evening stroll was beaten to death by a half a dozen intoxicated delinquents not far from where I stood.
I began to contemplate what might have happened if my recent situation had moved from merely an uncomfortable encounter to a life threatening attack. There was a time I might have just stuck a J-frame in my pocket for a quick walk with the dog. With seven of them and only one of me, the thought of only 5 shots in a J-frame suddenly did not feel too comforting. Fortunately, I now rely on a G19, as I find it almost as easy to carry as a J-frame and no harder to conceal than a G26. If this situation had taken a turn for the worse and gone badly, the 15 rounds on tap in a G19--equivalent to carrying three J-frames--was far more confidence inspiring than having to rely on a 5 shot J-frame. As is often said, quantity has a quality all of its own.
My bottom line is this: while I still love J-frames as a BUG to another primary handgun, I am NOT comfortable relying on one as my primary carry weapon. Long live the “new” J-frame—my G19!
That's a situation in which I would have my G19 and two spare magazines. I only carry the J-frame when I'm in a nonpermissive environment, or am dressed so as to prevent carrying a G19 or 1911. If I CAN carry a bigger gun, I do.
NavyDavy55
05-26-11, 08:10
If you are legally authorized to carry a handgun, take advantage of that right and carry an effective one.
As I have recently written at elsewhere, many folks are content with a J-frame or small .380 in the pocket when off-duty or for casual CCW when needing to quickly run an errand, but really don’t feel a need to be armed—like when your spouse sends you down to the local market for a carton of milk, when you run down to the nearest service station to get gas, or when stopping by a friend’s house to watch a game. What’s not to like; J-frames are just so light, compact, and easy to carry.
A few weeks ago I was out in the evening walking our dog through a wooded area near our neighborhood. Unfortunately, a group of seven older teenage boys had also decided to visit the woods to get drunk and high that night. Evidently, the belligerent punks were inebriated enough to become a bit aggressive and bellicose. They were lurking in the shadows as I came around a bend in the trail and churlishly attempted to block my passage and harass me.
Now, I’d like to think my authoritative presence, strong vocal commands, and Surefire L4 flashing in their eyes de-escalated the situation, but in reality it was likely my snarling black lab who decided she did NOT like her walk being intruded upon by rude interlopers. As the jerks slinked away, I reflected on the situation I had just found myself in--a number of years ago, a man out for an evening stroll was beaten to death by a half a dozen intoxicated delinquents not far from where I stood.
I began to contemplate what might have happened if my recent situation had moved from merely an uncomfortable encounter to a life threatening attack. There was a time I might have just stuck a J-frame in my pocket for a quick walk with the dog. With seven of them and only one of me, the thought of only 5 shots in a J-frame suddenly did not feel too comforting. Fortunately, I now rely on a G19, as I find it almost as easy to carry as a J-frame and no harder to conceal than a G26. If this situation had taken a turn for the worse and gone badly, the 15 rounds on tap in a G19--equivalent to carrying three J-frames--was far more confidence inspiring than having to rely on a 5 shot J-frame. As is often said, quantity has a quality all of its own.
My bottom line is this: while I still love J-frames as a BUG to another primary handgun, I am NOT comfortable relying on one as my primary carry weapon. Long live the “new” J-frame—my G19!
I see your point but I still don't feel under armed with my 442. I normally carry two speed loaders when I ccw my 442.
I think the best practice is to shoot and move and reload. I can get 15 shots off pretty fast. Hell punks like that will probably fill thier pants and run at the sight and sound of the first round going off.
For me, the G19 is a bit large to carry hidden sometimes, but it is light and the mag capacity and shootability is light years ahead of any J frame. I much prefer the G19 to the G26, with little tradeoff in my opinion, I prefer to "suffer" the G19 and be 100% confident.
I don't like miniguns at all, but then I don't have to carry in ultra hideout scenarios either.
What holster do you use.
My G27 rides in an exceptional Alessi ankle holster (wearing it daily for close to 5yrs now). I have a different brand ankle hoslter for my M&P340, but it's nowhere near so comfy as my Alessi. I really don't see myself every buying an ankle holster that isn't an Alessi.
I've got a Glock 27 and the 340PD. The 340PD is with me everywhere in a Mika pocket holster and a Speed Strip.
When I'm planning on going further than taking out the trash, the Glock 27 is with me in an Alessi ankle holster. I've had the Alessi for almost 10 years and it's in great shape. I also use a Galco "Cop Wallet" on my reverse ankle that holds a spare magazine for the Glock.
I've tried to pocket carry the Glock 27 and it's just too blocky. Like a small brick in your shorts. 340PD shines in that regard.
Don't overlook the J Frame as a great alternative tool for your collection.
Everyone should own a J Frame (man rule). They are great to conceal and give you another option when you can't hide a larger weapon.
We stock the M&P 340 and 442's with NO internal lock if interested.
C4
I have 2 Ruger LCR's. one in .38+p and the other in .357. They are great firearms, but dont fit in my pocket very well at all. Think "big thighs" :bad:
Anyway, my primary carry in the summer is a G26 in an OWB holster and it hides VERY well for me. Cooler months I go back to the 19. I generally back these up with a LCP as it does fit in my pocket really well. I dont like the .380 that much, but you cant beat the utility of ALWAYS having a gun on you regardless of where you are going/doing IMHO.
When it is just stupid hot I will sometims wuss out and carry one of my snubs on my belt in an OWB holster. They are much lighter and a revolver just carries differently than a semi auto on the belt. The rounded contours allow it to "blend" in more than the rectlinear edges/shape of the Glock.
I have noticed something about the snub though, it points great. I mean draw and point at what you want to hit and its there, no sights needed. I can verify this with snap caps in the gun, draw and point the snub without activating my CTC grip. Once I am "on target" I can tighten my grip slighty to activate the laser and see where I am at. Dead nutz on target every time from a draw with no sights being used. Reloads arent too bad from a speed loaded, but no where near that of a semi auto. Trade offs right?
Just my experiences....
-Drew
LanceOregon
05-26-11, 23:28
Everyone should own a J Frame (man rule). They are great to conceal and give you another option when you can't hide a larger weapon.
We stock the M&P 340 and 442's with NO internal lock if interested.
C4
Well, those of us carrying the Walther PPS have no need at all for a J frame. 7 + 1 of 9mm or 6 +1 of .40 S&W beats a J-frame each and every day of the week.
Here is a good photo showing a J-frame above a Walther PPS. Anyone can easily see that the Walther is going to be just as easy to conceal. And besides the increased ammo capacity, one can also see the obvious advantage in the length of the sight radius that the PPS has too.
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s272/lanceJOregon/guns/PPS1600.jpg
So no, I've got no need whatsoever for a J-Frame. For I've got the gun that is the REAL NEW J-FRAME:
Here is my 9mm PPS, refinished by ROBAR with their new NP3 PLUS:
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s272/lanceJOregon/guns/_DSC6800b.jpg
.
Let me preface my statement with the fact that I LOVE round guns. No matter what I carry for serious purpose, nothing makes my gun-heart beat faster than a nice revolver with rich bluing and a sweet set of wood grips. Having said that, I'm with Doc on this one. "Five for sure" sounds great on the internet, but isn't terribly comforting on the two-way rifle range.
Let's assume, for a moment, that you're horribly unlucky enough to actually need a handgun for self defense. Your luck MIGHT change, and you might run into a single attacker who is timid enough to be scared off by the mere sight of a pistol. In this case, your J-frame is adequate.
Another option is you have two assailants - neither of whom is willing to back down. You now have five shots to address two targets. Five shots which are each, AT BEST, marginal "stoppers." Five shots placed, in a time of EXTREME stress, from a pistol with a VERY short barrel, barely visible sights, and a heavy trigger pull. Keep in mind that trained shooters frequently turn in 20-30% hits in actual gunfights - let's double that for us since we train hard with our j-frames using full power SD ammo (yeah, right!) - and say we hit 50%. That's two or three hits on two targets. Still think "five for sure" is enough?
Forget about three or more BGs.
Then let's talk about reloading. Speed strips are AWESOME for concealment, but, seriously, does anyone think they'll be able to reload from a speed strip while being shot at? Speed loaders are faster, but bulky, and, IMHO, get left behind a lot. Even with them, have you TIMED yourself, shot to shot, with a reload in the middle? I train with mine A LOT, and I do NOT want to have to do that when my life depends on getting the next shot off...
Lastly, there's the "five for sure" myth. This was probably a "truism" back in the day when semiautos were notoriously unreliable. However, if you have a malfunction with your semi, a tap-rack-reassess has you back in business. If you have a malfunction with your revolver, it's going to need attention by a gunsmith to get it back in the fight, more likely than not. I have, personally, had FOUR j-frames fail on me - thankfully all on the range. Of the four, two were able to be repaired by the nice folks at S&W, the other two even they couldn't repair, and they had to be replaced with new pistols.
Having said all that, the baby Glocks are not great for pocket or ankle carry, due to their girth. For IWB carry or on the belt, I don't find the G26 to carry much more easily than my primary G19.
My preference for BUG or deep concealment use is the Kahr PM9. It's smaller and lighter than my 642, with a much better trigger, much better sights, more capacity, dramatically faster reloads, and a more potent chambering.
Of course, this is one man's opinion, and worth precisely what you paid for it.
Regards,
Kevin
ghettomedic
05-27-11, 09:26
I should have prefaced my earlier post with the caveat that I do NOT consider a j-frame an adequate primary CCW under most circumstances. Mine always serves as a BUG to my primary semi-auto with one notable exception: when in an environment with known contacts that requires wearing a suit and lots of close personal contact, I will carry a j-frame in an ankle holster. This mode of carry is useful when you gauge the threat level to be acceptably low to justify the tradeoff in capacity and delay in access. In the past month, I have utilized this carry method for graduation parties and friends getting married or buried. I know 90% of the people in these contexts personally and the constant hugging presents problems with IWB or AIWB carry. Not to mention, NC is damn hot this time of year and being able to remove my jacket and wear white dress shirts while at outdoor events demands a few compromises be made.
Beat Trash
05-27-11, 12:06
ghettometic,
I use a Kahr PM9 in a pocket holster for the type of situations you describe.
I own both a Kahr PM9 and a S&W 642. I really like the 642, but the Kahr is flatter. It's easier for me to shoot. I can get effective hits farther out with my Kahr than the 642, and Reloading the Kahr vs. the 642 is a no-brainer.
But with this said, the number of times per year I find myself armed with only the Kahr could be counted on one hand.
J-frames are best suited as a BUG for the reasons others mention. Those who assert their suitability as a primary will find some serious force-on-force exercises with them instructive.
Know and understand the merits and limitations of the gun. They require a special diligence to obtain and retain competency. While not as easy as others to shoot well, they nonetheless can be shot well. A dedicated user can be highly effective with them.
A Glock subcompact is not much larger or much more difficult to carry than a J-frame, but has all the functionality and performance of its larger siblings. They are an excellent choice and will do double duty as primary and BUGs.
Try out this setup: G19 on the belt, twin J-frames in the pockets, twin Glock subcompacts on the ankles.
My G27 rides in an exceptional Alessi ankle holster (wearing it daily for close to 5yrs now). I have a different brand ankle hoslter for my M&P340, but it's nowhere near so comfy as my Alessi. I really don't see myself every buying an ankle holster that isn't an Alessi.
There is the Alessi, and then everything else. Recomended!
...
J-Frames are easier to carry, the G26 is easier to shoot a motherf@$ker with. Personally, I don't carry a gun for the sake of carrying it and I won't compromise on carrying something that I can effectively draw & fight with and the G26 wins in this category hands down. Blazers, sweater vests and suit vests make good cover garments in more professional environments and if need be people carry the sub-compact Glocks in ankle holsters all the time, there's not much reason you shouldn't be able to either.
John_Wayne777
05-27-11, 14:03
I see your point but I still don't feel under armed with my 442.
...and it's likely you won't until you're in a situation where you think you are going to have to solve a shooting problem with that weapon.
It's better than nothing...but in a situation where you are contemplating having to put bullets into a bad guy's vital organs to continue your existence I promise you that you will be wishing for a better gun. I can also promise you that reloading a revolver while you're being shot at or physically assaulted by criminal aggressor(s) is considerably more difficult than in practice at home or on the range. For most it's also slow. Generally speaking, by the time you can get the revolver reloaded on a good day the fight has probably already been decided.
Carry more gun when you can.
I have both a g26 and a 642. They are both great carry options. But I had to give up one tomorrow, it would be the g26 and I keep the 642. Yes the g26 has more rds a little more power better sights and is easier to shoot accurately, but at the end of the day the g26 just isn't that much easier to conceal than a g19 and I carry my 642 far more often than the g26 as a result.
Fwiw I prefer pocket carry w/ my 642. I find the g26 far too big for pocket carry.
F-Trooper05
05-27-11, 16:51
J-Frames are easier to carry, the G26 is easier to shoot a motherf@$ker with.
My new sig.
I stopped in a local gun shop today to pick up some ammo for an IDPA match tomorrow. While I was there I handled both a 442 and G26 together at the same time. Not being as familiar with the j frame as I was with the Glock I didn't realize how similar they really are in terms of height, length, width and unloaded weight. I also tried the triggers together and while I didn't find the trigger on the j frame too heavy and the pull was pretty smooth, it did have a long stroke and late break (I thought, the Apex kit may help in this regard though).
I did find it easier to grip the j frame than the G26 but the hand position is different than with a semi auto and I had to conciously change the way I gripped the pistol, which I didn't like. The Glock for obvious reasons was second nature. And I was digging the new texture on the Glock grips.
The sights were better on the Glock but not unuseable on the j frame.
Both also seemed to slip into my pocket about the same (minus holster because of the casual nature of this little test). I think both would be a no go for pocket carry at work, and ankle carry may be about the same for either.
Next time I'm at the indoor range i'm going to try and rent both for a little live fire comparison. I appreciate all the responses and if anyone has weights for fully loaded 442 and G26, I'd be interested to see how they compare in that regard.
I have to say that after today's little comparison I'm surprisingly leaning more toward the Glock (even though I'd still love a nice revolver). Ammo commonality, mag commonality, and the same manual of arms between it and my G17 is icing on the cake and reminds me of why I chose a G27 as a bug to my G22 when I was on duty. I guess sometimes you have to relearn what you already know.
Please keep the suggestions and experiences coming.
RD62, the revolver is slightly different here but...
G26 +10rnds of 124gr+P Gold dot and 10 rnd compact mag = 26.1oz
G26 +12rnds of same ammo and 10rnd mag with Glock + floorpate = 27.2oz
340M&P + 5rnds 135gr+P Gold Dot and Uncle Mike's boot Grips = 16.6oz.
Just 5rnds of the ammo is 2.4oz so you can add that to the weight of the 642.
LCR (with XS front sight and Hogue boot grip) + 5rnds of gold dots = 15.5oz
The LCR would definitely be my choice over the 642 if you go the revolver route. I find it much easier to shoot without disturbing the front sight than either my 340 or the 642 I had. Doesn't sting as bad either.
LanceOregon
05-28-11, 00:19
Having said all that, the baby Glocks are not great for pocket or ankle carry, due to their girth.
That is exactly why the Walther PPS is such an awesome solution. Its super narrow width solves that very issue. And it operates just like a Glock, with a striker type trigger. So anyone used to shooting Glocks will find himself completely at home shooting a Walther PPS.
My preference for BUG or deep concealment use is the Kahr PM9. It's smaller and lighter than my 642, with a much better trigger, much better sights, more capacity, dramatically faster reloads, and a more potent chambering.
I've owned both the Kahr PM9 and the Walther PPS, and there is no comparison between these two handguns in my opinion. The PPS also has all of these same advantages that you speak off, but is more accurate and easier to shoot, in my experience. Field strip each gun and closely examine them, and you will see a world of difference. The PPS is easily the better made weapon.
Getting back to the triggers, the Kahr has a very long and fairly heavy DAO pull. Now it is true that it is a very smooth and good quality DAO pull. But again, it is a totally different type of trigger pull than what you have with a Glock. So if a person also owns a Glock, it makes FAR MORE SENSE to me to stick with a smaller gun that uses the same type of trigger, instead of going with something with a radically different style of trigger.
This was the last photo that I took of my Kahr PM9 before I sold it. Since I got my two PPS handguns, I simply lost interest in carrying it anymore. And that is because I now own two better handguns that do the same job better.
That is my final 2 cents as to why the Walther PPS is the Cat's Meow.
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s272/lanceJOregon/guns/_DSC6654b.jpg
My lessons learned similar to Doc, walking my dog (50lb rottweiler)
and set upon by 3 car thieves we just happened to see stripping a car
in the brush. It was the one day I decided not to chamber a round in
my Colt Commander /Comp tac holster at that time my carry gun. Luckily for me a minute of
them seeing and hearing my snarling ,foaming at the mouth compact
rotty made them think twice and decide to leave the area altogether.
Needless to say I'm a firm proponent of loaded chamber highest capacity you can carry carry no exceptions. I carry a G26 in a Galco ankle holster to work (dress code requires tucked in shirt) with ease , along with a g19 magazine in my left pocket giving me 26 rounds. I even wore it at my friends wedding last weekend no problem. Dancing etc,, no problem. When it gets really hot down here its either my G19 IWB or HK P7 PSP w/ spare mag untucked shirt.
Agree with this, I can't believe the glock faithful aren't falling over themselves to try this gun. Its what a glock should have evolved to already
That is exactly why the Walther PPS is such an awesome solution. Its super narrow width solves that very issue. And it operates just like a Glock, with a striker type trigger. So anyone used to shooting Glocks will find himself completely at home shooting a Walther PPS.
I've owned both the Kahr PM9 and the Walther PPS, and there is no comparison between these two handguns in my opinion. The PPS also has all of these same advantages that you speak off, but is more accurate and easier to shoot, in my experience. Field strip each gun and closely examine them, and you will see a world of difference. The PPS is easily the better made weapon.
Getting back to the triggers, the Kahr has a very long and fairly heavy DAO pull. Now it is true that it is a very smooth and good quality DAO pull. But again, it is a totally different type of trigger pull than what you have with a Glock. So if a person also owns a Glock, it makes FAR MORE SENSE to me to stick with a smaller gun that uses the same type of trigger, instead of going with something with a radically different style of trigger.
This was the last photo that I took of my Kahr PM9 before I sold it. Since I got my two PPS handguns, I simply lost interest in carrying it anymore. And that is because I now own two better handguns that do the same job better.
That is my final 2 cents as to why the Walther PPS is the Cat's Meow.
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s272/lanceJOregon/guns/_DSC6654b.jpg
I agree with this. I can't believe the glock faithful haven't fallen over themselves up try this gun. Its what glock should have evolved to by now
Agree with this, I can't believe the glock faithful aren't falling over themselves to try this gun. Its what a glock should have evolved to already
Can't speak for all, but the lure of the G26 is it's just a shortened barrel and grip version of a very reliable locking system. I wouldn't give that up to save 0.14" in width for any of the new breed of shrunk within a mm of reliability slim 9mms.
Can't speak for all, but the lure of the G26 is it's just a shortened barrel and grip version of a very reliable locking system. I wouldn't give that up to save 0.14" in width for any of the new breed of shrunk within a mm of reliability slim 9mms.
What are you talking about? Its nearly a third of an inch thinner
Thanks for all the suggestions everyone has made.
For current environment this pistol would be carried in, belt carry (except possibly in winter months when sweaters are OK) is out of the question. Also having owned and carried a G27 for several years IWB, on the ankle, OWB, and on soft body armor, I am well aware of its carry characteristics.
Also I am not considering the other different makes/models of sub-compact semi autos (Kahr, Sig, Springfield, Walther, M&P, H&K, etc). While I am sure there are many fine, reliable, and practical choices from these makers; the ammo, parts, mag and holster compatibility of the G26 with my current G17 as well as my proficiency with the Glock platform keeps me from considering these. (Also the mag release on the Walther as well as other pistols utilizing the same lever style release, make them a no-go for me personally for a carry gun)
Any more info related to personal experience with the S&W J Frame and/or G26 is welcomed and appreciated.
As I have mentioned, I am reserving final judgement until I am able to put rounds through both at the same time. In the meantime I am currently leaning most towards the G26 for the reasons mentioned above and in previous posts.
What are you talking about? Its nearly a third of an inch thinner
I got the widths off of glock and waltherpistols and subtracted them.
Though I have not tried them, the smartcarry or a belly band would allow you to carry them under clothes if in an office environment for example.
Though I have not tried them, the smartcarry or a belly band would allow you to carry them under clothes if in an office environment for example.
I admit I haven't tried them either but I have my doubts. I think I'll stick with ankle carry unless someone who is using one of these regularly comes by and educates me a little more.
I got the widths off of glock and waltherpistols and subtracted them.
Though I have not tried them, the smartcarry or a belly band would allow you to carry them under clothes if in an office environment for example.
Walther measures to the slide lock. Glock the slide. Walther slide is .90
I had a S&W 60. Carried it, loved it and like an IDIOT! I sold it. :suicide: I've been meaning to replace it pretty much ever since.
On a side note, I read an article in a recent issue of SWAT about carrying while injured. It was one of those articles I thought was goofy as all hell and saved it for when I was jonesing for another fix (read: waiting for the next issue.) After reading it I was pleasantly surprised it was not as goofy as I thought and made some sense. (How could I have doubted you, SWAT mag?!)
Now for a bit of recent history...
I was in a car accident May 12th. I was wearing my seat belt and my airbag went off. Aside from my shattered ego, my broken psyche and my now totaled Subaru, I sustained contusions to my chest from the seat belt and airbag. As a result, I found it difficult to rack the slide on my Glock and could barely hold my rifle to my shoulder for more than a few seconds. I wouldn't even dare dream about firing my shotgun. I'm still in a bit of pain but I'm slowly getting better...though not better enough to sleep on my side. :mad:
The point is, while a revolver may reload slower and carry less rounds, you may not see that Suburban coming! Everyone should have at least one J-frame size revolver.
For concealed carry I use either a Glock 30SF or a S&W 442. The choice depends on the type of clothing I'm wearing. The 442 fits very nicely in a Desantis pocket holster, perfect for shorts and a T shirt. It allows me to be armed and concealed when I wouldn't feel comfortable trying to hide something else.
The_War_Wagon
05-31-11, 06:19
I carry a J-frame Taurus 605 with pocket holster - ESPECIALLY in the summer. VERY easy & convenient, especially in cargo/academy shorts and tee, when ya' gotta make a bread & milk run to the local Stop 'n' Rob.
As a 1911 afficianado, who OWNS an officer-sized Kimber, I think you'd find it works VERY well for such occasions.
Using a belly band negates any advantage the J might have, with the exception of weight. The flat little baby Glocks can be carried anywhere in a belly band, AND in most any position. Very versatile, and allows the carry of a more capable handgun.
Having said all that, I love J frames. Just being a realist.
Skip
Thanks Doc, very enlightening. I know you guys have heard the classic drivel, "If you need more than five, you are screwed anyway" or "If you need..., you shouldn't have been there" or "If you need more than five, blah blah". A lot of my friends subscribe to this logic. I keep asking them, how exactly do you know how many BGs are you going to encounter, or when, or where? I just get this deer in the headlights look from them.
If you are legally authorized to carry a handgun, take advantage of that right and carry an effective one.
As I have recently written at elsewhere, many folks are content with a J-frame or small .380 in the pocket when off-duty or for casual CCW when needing to quickly run an errand, but really don’t feel a need to be armed—like when your spouse sends you down to the local market for a carton of milk, when you run down to the nearest service station to get gas, or when stopping by a friend’s house to watch a game. What’s not to like; J-frames are just so light, compact, and easy to carry.
A few weeks ago I was out in the evening walking our dog through a wooded area near our neighborhood. Unfortunately, a group of seven older teenage boys had also decided to visit the woods to get drunk and high that night. Evidently, the belligerent punks were inebriated enough to become a bit aggressive and bellicose. They were lurking in the shadows as I came around a bend in the trail and churlishly attempted to block my passage and harass me.
Now, I’d like to think my authoritative presence, strong vocal commands, and Surefire L4 flashing in their eyes de-escalated the situation, but in reality it was likely my snarling black lab who decided she did NOT like her walk being intruded upon by rude interlopers. As the jerks slinked away, I reflected on the situation I had just found myself in--a number of years ago, a man out for an evening stroll was beaten to death by a half a dozen intoxicated delinquents not far from where I stood.
I began to contemplate what might have happened if my recent situation had moved from merely an uncomfortable encounter to a life threatening attack. There was a time I might have just stuck a J-frame in my pocket for a quick walk with the dog. With seven of them and only one of me, the thought of only 5 shots in a J-frame suddenly did not feel too comforting. Fortunately, I now rely on a G19, as I find it almost as easy to carry as a J-frame and no harder to conceal than a G26. If this situation had taken a turn for the worse and gone badly, the 15 rounds on tap in a G19--equivalent to carrying three J-frames--was far more confidence inspiring than having to rely on a 5 shot J-frame. As is often said, quantity has a quality all of its own.
My bottom line is this: while I still love J-frames as a BUG to another primary handgun, I am NOT comfortable relying on one as my primary carry weapon. Long live the “new” J-frame—my G19!
Beat Trash
05-31-11, 12:00
Thanks Doc, very enlightening. I know you guys have heard the classic drivel, "If you need more than five, you are screwed anyway" or "If you need..., you shouldn't have been there" or "If you need more than five, blah blah". A lot of my friends subscribe to this logic. I keep asking them, how exactly do you know how many BGs are you going to encounter, or when, or where? I just get this deer in the headlights look from them.
Don't forget that sometimes it takes more than one round to force the suspect to stop their aggressive actions. Some people can become "bullet sponges" before it's over. All the sudden your five shot J-frame is looking less and less comforting!
Exactly, that is why I never bought into that logic.
Don't forget that sometimes it takes more than one round to force the suspect to stop their aggressive actions. Some people can become "bullet sponges" before it's over. All the sudden your five shot J-frame is looking less and less comforting!
glock 26 or similar or j frame are both reasonable choices. The general consensus is the glock will be a bit easier to shoot with accuracy than the j frame. Considering the ranges at which such a pistol is to be used I'd say this matters little. The reliability edge (small though it is) in the j frame means it would still get my vote.
I bought a 442 as soon as they came out and have been carrying it daily for about fifteen years now. If I'm awake, it's in my pocket.
Second guns weren't allowed when I was working (although I occasionally did anyway). But the J frames and the 442 in particular have two great advantages--reliability and you can have them with you ALWAYS.
As an instructor in the 80s and half of the 90s, I oversaw a mix of wheelguns and semiautos; high quality guns with factory ammo. I stuck with the revolver even with its alleged shortcomings. My 442 is one of very few guns I have never gone into and never, ever choked in any way.
I don't consider my 442 a serious go to war gun; but it darn sure shines as an ALWAYS gun. Most of the time that's enough.
If I feel the need I'm quite willing to up the ante from there.
LanceOregon
06-01-11, 05:37
Can't speak for all, but the lure of the G26 is it's just a shortened barrel and grip version of a very reliable locking system. I wouldn't give that up to save 0.14" in width for any of the new breed of shrunk within a mm of reliability slim 9mms.
A mm?? You cannot be serious.
The difference in width is very dramatic and substantial. Anyone can see that in this photo of a G26 next to the PPS:
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s272/lanceJOregon/guns/G26_PPSa.jpg
LanceOregon
06-01-11, 05:41
I got the widths off of glock and waltherpistols and subtracted them.
Dude:
Waltherpistols.com is just a little retail store in Green Bay, Wisconsin. They sell all kinds of pistols and other firearms at that store.
Everyone knows that Smith & Wesson is Walther's distributor for North America.
.
If I have room for a 26 I have room for a 19. I prefer the J as a backup, but you'd never catch me armed only with it.
Lance, no I'm not serious. It's a saying, like being choked within an inch of your life.
Regardless, my reply was to the person wondering why the Glock fans hadn't jumped on the PPS. For me, b/c of all the easy to get stuff (parts, sights, sight pushers, holsters, magazines interchangeable with G19/17, armorer's class, proven reliability etc.) it's not worth it just to save the small difference in thickness.
I worked the road for 10 years and always had a 642 on my ankle. I normally carry a G26 on my hip when off-duty and still have the 642 on my ankle out of habit. My line of thinking was always that in a real bad situation (on my back with bad guy on top of me) my 642 could be thrust into the bad guys gut or head and the trigger could be continuously pulled with a bag each time. If you did the same thing with a "baby glock" you could possibly push the slide to the rear forcing an "out of battery" situation where the glock would not fire. I would much rather have 5 bangs instead of 1 nothing. I will always choose a J-frame for a true last resort weapon just for the reliability they have.
LanceOregon
06-01-11, 20:43
it's not worth it just to save the small difference in thickness.
You need to go see an optometrist, and get your vision checked out soon.
It is all too obvious that you have also never compared these guns side by side in person, much less compared how different they feel being carried.
My M&P compact is very close to the Glock dimensions, and the PPS again makes my M&P look and feel real fat and wide too. There is just no way for anyone to say with any credibility whatsoever that a gun with a double stack magazine has just a small difference in thickness compared to a single stack gun.
Here is my Walther PPS on the right next to a single stack Sig P239:
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s272/lanceJOregon/guns/239_PPS_vertical_email.jpg
And here it is on the left next to my M&P compact:
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s272/lanceJOregon/guns/compare_thin_email.jpg
Nytcrawler93
06-01-11, 21:04
Carry what you can when you can and what you can use when you need to use it. I have shot some scandium ones that were painful where the autos tend to be easier to control for me.
You need to go see an optometrist, and get your vision checked out soon.
It is all too obvious that you have also never compared these guns side by side in person, much less compared how different they feel being carried.
My M&P compact is very close to the Glock dimensions, and the PPS again makes my M&P look and feel real fat and wide too. There is just no way for anyone to say with any credibility whatsoever that a gun with a double stack magazine has just a small difference in thickness compared to a single stack gun.
Here is my Walther PPS on the right next to a single stack Sig P239:
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s272/lanceJOregon/guns/239_PPS_vertical_email.jpg
And here it is on the left next to my M&P compact:
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s272/lanceJOregon/guns/compare_thin_email.jpg
Thanks for your input, but as already mentioned the Walther is not in contention here, just the J-frame and G26.
I am NOT looking to add a different manufacturer's 9mm semi-auto when I already have holsters, mags, etc for the Glock.
Also to everyone, please remember, this pistol will be carried INSTEAD of a full size pistol, NOT in addition to one.
Thanks for all the suggestions and experiences.
LanceOregon
06-02-11, 00:30
Thanks for your input, but as already mentioned the Walther is not in contention here, just the J-frame and G26.
I am NOT looking to add a different manufacturer's 9mm semi-auto when I already have holsters, mags, etc for the Glock.
RD62:
As you can see in my post, I was simply responding to ImBroke's comments in this discussion about the differences in width between Glocks and small thinner pistols being insignificant. I just don't understand how he or anyone else could argue that they are not a consideration.
I was not responding in any way to your posts, but instead to the last couple of posts made by ImBroke. I disagree with his position regarding why more Glock owners don't consider small pistols like the PPS for concealed carry. First off, I think that he underestimates the popularity of the Walther PPS, and secondly I think many of those who don't consider the PPS do so out of unfamiliarity with the pistol and a lack of knowledge about it. Heck, ImBroke did not even know that Walther pistols are sold in the USA by Smith & Wesson, and did not know where their website was even. He ended up visiting a local dealer's website, thinking that it was the official Walther website. Plus, as he also stated, he has never even handled a PPS, much less shot one. Finally, the math he used to calculate the differences in the the widths of the guns was way off, and I wanted to point out that error.
I apologize if you mistook my post as being directed at you. However, if you look closely, you will see that I quoted the previous post by ImBroke in my response. Both of my last couple of posts here have been in response to things that ImBroke said here in this discussion.
.
Plus, as he also stated, he has never even handled a PPS, much less shot one.
Where did I say that Lance? And thank you for insulting my vision and math skills. You're quite a gentleman.
I simply don't think that JUST THE thickness difference between the PPS and the G26 is worth RD62 not making use of his long history with the Glock and the stuff he already has.
Lance.
Dude-seriously, enough with the PPS love fest. You have derailed this thread enough. If you want to expound on why you feel the PPS is the best thing ever to launch a bullet because its thinner than a Glock-start your own thread. See if it gets much traction then.
Out.
I personally have a JFrame as a BUG, not as a stand alone for CCW. I find a very small difference between the G19 & G26 as far as concealment and prefer the G19. With that said, there times that a JFrame will only do. But those times are far and few between.
I did the whole J-Frame thing for years, then got a Kahr PM40. The gun would hold open on a full to partial full mag, so the first thing I did was send it to the factory, on their dime both ways, to have it tweaked and looked over for reliability. Ever since it has run reliably.
6 rounds of 40 S&W with another 5rnd mag ready to go vs 38spcl. and the Kahr doesn't feel like I caught a 90mph fastball every shot like my Airweight J- Frame did.
malignantbum
06-04-11, 12:38
Situation dictate response.... Most of the time it is a g17 with a 26 on the ankle. The times I am carrying my J frame, mowing the grass down by the water, goofing around the barn etc. It does excellent for snake persuasion, though when I slip something into my pocket it is the J frame. It is smaller than the 26, yet it is still a viable caliber. My opinion would be to think how many tomes you need this void filled with the j frame and then make the choice to buy or not. The j frame also works well on the ankle or attached to armor at work. YMMV.
Nephrology
06-04-11, 13:25
I personally have a JFrame as a BUG, not as a stand alone for CCW. I find a very small difference between the G19 & G26 as far as concealment and prefer the G19. With that said, there times that a JFrame will only do. But those times are far and few between.
I unfortunately have many times and places where waist carry is very much undesireable. A 26 would probably make IWB carry slightly easier, but I would like to enable myself to pocket carry if possible.
I see your point but I still don't feel under armed with my 442. I normally carry two speed loaders when I ccw my 442.
I think the best practice is to shoot and move and reload. I can get 15 shots off pretty fast. Hell punks like that will probably fill thier pants and run at the sight and sound of the first round going off.
I don't think I'd stake my life and/or my carry choices on this handy tidbit of information.
I have at times in the past carried a small revolver, and while I do like the gun itself, I do not like solely relying on it for my defense. I would feel much better with a G 26 personally, for many of the reasons already mentioned by other posters.
NavyDavy55
06-05-11, 14:54
I don't think I'd stake my life and/or my carry choices on this handy tidbit of information.
I have at times in the past carried a small revolver, and while I do like the gun itself, I do not like solely relying on it for my defense. I would feel much better with a G 26 personally, for many of the reasons already mentioned by other posters.
I still believe what I posted earlier.
A handgun is a marginal self defense weapon.
55% of gunfights take place 0-5 feet.
20% of gunfights take place in 5-10 feet.
20% of gunfights take place in 10-21 feet.
95% of gunfights take place in 0-21 feet. (Source- FBI)
The average gunfight is over in 3-5 seconds. Sometimes you can be home in time for your favorite show.
3 to 4 shots are usually fired.
A gunfight is stressful. You are likely to drop a loaf. Wear adult diapers for this eventuality.
On average, one shot in four strikes someone.
It's the person, not the gun, that wins the battle.
I still believe what I posted earlier.
A handgun is a marginal self defense weapon.
55% of gunfights take place 0-5 feet.
20% of gunfights take place in 5-10 feet.
20% of gunfights take place in 10-21 feet.
95% of gunfights take place in 0-21 feet. (Source- FBI)
The average gunfight is over in 3-5 seconds. Sometimes you can be home in time for your favorite show.
3 to 4 shots are usually fired.
A gunfight is stressful. You are likely to drop a loaf. Wear adult diapers for this eventuality.
On average, one shot in four strikes someone.
It's the person, not the gun, that wins the battle.
Do you have a source for the above stats? I see this posted repeatedly, but never sourced.
Also, there has been at least one study that showed "punks" usually do not shit their pants and unfortunately faired pretty well in shoutouts against LEOs.
ETA: Sorry to post something without a source after I just asked you for one. I'm looking for the study right now.
I still believe what I posted earlier.
A handgun is a marginal self defense weapon.
55% of gunfights take place 0-5 feet.
20% of gunfights take place in 5-10 feet.
20% of gunfights take place in 10-21 feet.
95% of gunfights take place in 0-21 feet. (Source- FBI)
The average gunfight is over in 3-5 seconds. Sometimes you can be home in time for your favorite show.
3 to 4 shots are usually fired.
A gunfight is stressful. You are likely to drop a loaf. Wear adult diapers for this eventuality.
On average, one shot in four strikes someone.
It's the person, not the gun, that wins the battle.
I should have kept the sarcasm out of my first post as it does nothing for quality discussion.
I understand that gunfights are stressful and an involuntary bowel movement may occur by any party involved. What I should have said is that while I understand this may happen I would not base my choice in a gun to carry counting on this event taking place and the adversary being scared and running away.
An instructor at the last pistol class I took also said that 50% of all violent attacks involve multiple attackers (do not know the source of that statistic). Multiple attackers who may need multiple HITS to stop them from being a threat. Also, as we all know there is also a chance an attacker may be under the influence of drugs (think PCP) or alcohol and may not experience "normal" fear or react to gunshot wounds at all. This alone is reason enough for me to want to carry a gun that is in my mind more capable than a J frame. Given the OP's criteria, the G26 would be my choice hands down.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.