View Full Version : Why we do it.
Robb Jensen
10-12-07, 05:45
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/robbmotivatorDVC.jpg
"Competition, is a crucial part of the process, in the mastery of a chosen art. Its a demonstration, by the practitioner, that his path, his way in the journey of that mastery was either correct, or in need of further refinement.
Classes are fine, their purpose is to suggest the way, through the shared experience of a master. They indicate right direction, encourage discipline, and a process to practice. But in the case of arms, in the end you must take what you see, what you hear, what you read, and what you experience and turn it into your own way. It is ultimately your endeavor, and to stand in the arena before others, and demonstrate your way reveals to all and mainly yourself whether you put your faith in the truth or just a facade of smoke.
To deny yourself the opportunity to experience such an aspect of the journey is a mistake."
Jay Cunningham
10-12-07, 05:52
I used to be of the mindset that I would never compete because I didn't want to learn any bad habits from gaming.
I must say, due primarily to your posts Robb, I have reconsidered my stance.
Next year I will be starting IDPA in Hollidaysburg, Pennsylvania. (http://www.hollidaysburgsportsmensclub.com/idpa01.html)
I think there is room for both, as long as the game is kept as realistic as reasonably possible.
Thanks again for all the competition threads and advice that you have given on this board.
Robb Jensen
11-11-07, 17:26
I think you'll love it. Just keep an open mind and remember that both IDPA and USPSA are games. I find that training and 'gaming' compliment each other and make one an overall better shooter. 'Gaming' is fun, when it's no longer fun for me I'll quit. Both IPSC and IDPA have people that are so competitive that they get all worked up about stuff, if I was that intense I'd quit.
The biggest thing I hate about IDPA is the SOs (safety officers) that try to give 'tactical advice' about how I might fight in a gunfight.
In the end it's about problem solving...........especially with USPSA........."how best can I shoot this 32 round stage accurately, rapidly, and efficiently?"
I find USPSA more fun than IDPA and 3gun/multi-gun even more fun than USPSA.
The biggest thing I hate about IDPA is the SOs (safety officers) that try to give 'tactical advice' about how I might fight in a gunfight.
We have one of those at a local club. He wears "tactical" polos, "tactical" vests and probably even "tactical" socks and continously advises me which mags to run in my 1911. That's always confused me since he doesn't even own a 1911.
Back on topic though, being able to see improvement in my shooting is the sweetest benefit of competetion. Outshooting "tactical guy" is fun too! ;)
Don Robison
11-11-07, 20:06
Since I've moved into a staff job that doesn't give me the opportunity to train as much; I've been looking at IDPA/USPSA as an alternative to keeping my skills honed. Going to the range and shooting static by myself is really getting old after 6-7 weeks.
The biggest problem is in this area the closest IDPA matches are a 90 minute drive and I'm not aware of any USPSA or three gun matches locally.
Competitions are a big help so long as you remember they teach you to shoot, not how to fight.
Don Robison
11-11-07, 23:05
Competitions are a big help so long as you remember they teach you to shoot, not how to fight.
That's all I'm looking for, something to get time pressing the trgger faster than one shot per second at a bullseye target. Tactics I believe can be worked in if you're not worried about winning, but I'm not looking to get tactics or winning out of it.
Edit: But it would be a nice biproduct
Robb Jensen
11-12-07, 05:41
Competitions are a big help so long as you remember they teach you to shoot, not how to fight.
Exactly, competition ain't training........and training ain't competition. ;)
Fighting is the ultimate competition....
Hitting ones target while fighting is the only way to win, applying good tactics do you no good if your not competent enough with your weapon to take advantage of said skill set. Unless your tactic is to run away.
Fighting is thinking- Gaming is thinking. The best fighters I know think!!!!...... and are not in the rut mindset.
Do whatever it takes to stay intouch with your trigger, practice, classes and/or yes games.
It is ultimately your endeavor, and to stand in the arena before others
Alot of people are scared to even do that. Some are humbled so bad that they won't ever try again.
Alot of people are scared to even do that. Some are humbled so bad that they won't ever try again.
Yep your right I've seen many of those. Some even justify their hurt pride by preaching competition develops bad habits and try to guide those less knowlegable against even trying...........
I remember the first time I shot an IPSC match in 87. I was humbled, even beaten down by a Master Class shooter in the shootoff's on poppers. He had 6 poppers down before I got sight alignment on my second popper, that was the first run, the second run I was so flustered I didn't even hit the first popper before he was done........:mad:
I remember saying to myself- Im gonna kick his ass and exceed his skill level someday.............;)
I've been feeling a bit of burnout lately. I know this because I've let considerations of the cost of ammo, match fees, and gasoline factor heavily into whether or not I shoot a given match. It tells me I don't really want to do it that badly right now.
So right now the "why I do it" is ambiguous. It's partially habit, and partially for the social aspects. The fact that it's my only practice is currently a distant third. It's still fun, but not as much fun for the last few months. I suspect that I will recharge during the winter and be ready to go again in the spring.
Robb Jensen
11-15-07, 04:51
I've been feeling a bit of burnout lately. I know this because I've let considerations of the cost of ammo, match fees, and gasoline factor heavily into whether or not I shoot a given match. It tells me I don't really want to do it that badly right now.
So right now the "why I do it" is ambiguous. It's partially habit, and partially for the social aspects. The fact that it's my only practice is currently a distant third. It's still fun, but not as much fun for the last few months. I suspect that I will recharge during the winter and be ready to go again in the spring.
Once in awhile I suffer from the burnout too. Then I just take a month or more off of all shooting, matches etc. No dryfire or anything. Then come back to it refreshed.
I try to break up the practice sessions sometimes to keep it interesting. Kind of like varying workout routines to "shock" your muscles.
True, sometimes, it's like you're holding a rock.
Robb Jensen
11-15-07, 07:35
I try to break up the practice sessions sometimes to keep it interesting. Kind of like varying workout routines to "shock" your muscles.
True, sometimes, it's like you're holding a rock.
Sometimes I get bored, to keep in interesting I'll switch formats like from Limited to Production etc. Next year I plan to shoot Production, Limited and some Single Stack. Same game but totally different strategy and methods i.e. in Limited because I'm shooting Major PF I can go balls to the wall (or as Larry Houck says: let it all hang out!) If I get alphas and charlies (A and C hits) it's okay. In Production you pretty much have to shoot all the alphas you can get because not matter what caliber you're shooting it's scored as Minot PF basically meaning if I shoot 2 charlies (C hits) it's like a Major shooting getting a miss as far as points go! That's why many call accurate Production shooters 'points shooters' because we go a little slower and try harder for alphas (alphas are scored the same for points no matter Major/Minor PF).
If I get some S&W sponsorship next year that I'm hoping for I'll be very likely shooting a 5" M&P9 and a maybe a S&W 1911 in USPSA! :D
I've been feeling a bit of burnout lately. I know this because I've let considerations of the cost of ammo, match fees, and gasoline factor heavily into whether or not I shoot a given match. It tells me I don't really want to do it that badly right now.
So right now the "why I do it" is ambiguous. It's partially habit, and partially for the social aspects. The fact that it's my only practice is currently a distant third. It's still fun, but not as much fun for the last few months. I suspect that I will recharge during the winter and be ready to go again in the spring.
I have been burned out for a few years now. My last major match was the 99 Nationals. I still shoot a bunch of rifle but lost the dedication/drive which is needed to perform at my top level with handguns.
My focus the past few years has been on hunting and recreational long range rifle shooting.
I do shoot all the local pistol matches I can because it is the only practice I get with my daily carry weapon.
GOTM4,
I have been toying with the Idea of getting back into the IPSC game shooting the single stack division. I have even gone as far recently buying a 38 super single stack thinking of taking advantage of the 10 rd mags. Which will allow me to play less conservative and play the edge more, even though I'd be shooting minor.
Since you seem to be active and well informed on who's shooting what these days....What are your thoughts on this?
Im itching to hit a major match again.........I miss the good people one meets at these events.
Robb Jensen
11-15-07, 11:14
GOTM4,
I have been toying with the Idea of getting back into the IPSC game shooting the single stack division. I have even gone as far recently buying a 38 super single stack thinking of taking advantage of the 10 rd mags. Which will allow me to play less conservative and play the edge more, even though I'd be shooting minor.
Since you seem to be active and well informed on who's shooting what these days....What are your thoughts on this?
Im itching to hit a major match again.........I miss the good people one meets at these events.
Yep the Single Stack rules make you have to have a minimum bore diameter of .40 to be major (like Limited).
http://www.uspsa.com/rules/2008HandgunRules.pdf
BUT you can have 10 rounds per mag instead of 8 rounds. .38 Super would probably run a lot better than the 1911 9mms as well.
I've been shooting primarily in the provisional single stack division since the rules were released a few years ago. It's quite a bit of fun!
On occasion I shoot a .45, but mostly it's my 9mm Springfield. I'm doing that 1) to save money on ammo, and 2) because it's fun. If you're interested in trying to actually win the competition, I'd say the .38 super would be a better choice because of the noted 10rd magazines. I can sometimes get 10rd super mags to work wtih 9mm in my gun, but not often enough to trust them (again) in matches. The one round advantage I have over the people shooting major PF with 8 rounds isn't enough to make the minor PF tradeoff worth it. I find myself slowing down even more than I would with a .45 because I have to get As...
Barry in IN
11-16-07, 09:42
I'm glad this thread was started. I often hear the old "I dont shoot matches because they aren't "relative" (or cause the development of bad habits, or whatever) and I've said that myself.
My feeling now is- Matches are what you make of them.
If you want to try to score well- go ahead.
If you want to practice what you've trained, you can do that too. Nobody MAKES you reload in the open, leave cover to run in front of "live" targets, or any of other things I hear matches criticized for.
Just take your carry gun and holster, wear it like you carry it, go to the match, use the props and scenario given, and see if you do what you trained/practiced.
I consider it a challenge to avoid the "speed trap". It's tempting at times to shoot for a better score than to shoot like I know I should be practicing. But if I shoot a stage and realize afterward that I ducked behind a wall to reload here, stayed behind cover there, etc, and did that without thinking about it- I take a lot more satisfaction out of that than placing two or three spots higher by doing it "the fast way".
Rhino can verify that the score isn't that important to me, or I'd never go back!
I can sit around home and gripe about how it "isn't relative" or I can go shoot the match and shoot it my way. Which does me more good?
Indeed, I can verify that Barry shoots both USPSA and IDPA matches in order to practice his defensive skills, and sticks with his own agenda. I find it refreshing to see him in USPSA matches, drawing from concealment, and pretending to use the props as cover (for real, not the minimal, IDPA Gamer way).
I will also add that he does pretty in the standings, despite his choices that do not enhance competitive success. He is too modest!
I have significantly less respect for people who claim they are shooting in one of the games (usually IDPA) to practice such skills and that they are "tactical" (cough!), then they whine when they don't "win." In 99.999% of the cases, they wouldn't have won anyway. Or even placed significantly higher than where they did. You can't blame failing to achieve your real agenda on someone else not being "tactical." :D
Barry in IN
11-16-07, 13:09
Aw, shucks. C'mon Rhino- I suck.
People often say that competition adds stress to your shooting by having to perform in front of an audience, however small. While it's no comparison to having an audience that shoots back, it's something.
In a similar vein- Knowing you're the only guy there who is shooting from concealment, ducking behind fake walls, and shooting from Weaver can add a little pressure too. You kinda want to do something besides just look goofy.
My feeling now is- Matches are what you make of them.
How true.
For alot of people competitions add a ton of stress, some none at all. I'm sure some of you have seen the person who is real accurate, put him/her under stress and oh my-- The there's plenty who do really well under stress, regardless of how they shoot otherwise.
Guess I'll weigh-in on all this.
I've been at various local USPSA, IDPA, and 2-gun/3-gun matches since 1993, both as contestant and RO/SO. I've always found personal energy in taking on a "worthy problem", both in my work and my other non-shooting pursuits, so the compete-against-yourself aspect of shooting competition has a lot of appeal to me.
Also as a believer/practitioner in the Second Amendment, I derive the skill and equipment honing benefit that competition brings. "If it can go wrong, it will at a match." That includes both hardware and software (brain). Likewise when everything does come together. It is truly amazing some of things that can be experienced when space-time becomes stretched. (If you've been there, you know what I'm talking about.) Not a substitute for training -- or as well I might add for personal study and thought -- but is a valuable part of the mental mix needed for responsible self defense.
On top of all this, it has been a tremendous social forum for many more like-minded folks than I would have ever met sitting at home all weekend.:)
As far as the burn out, I took a major time-off during 1998-99 following a personal/family crisis that compelled me to disengage from a lot of my more socially oriented pursuits, including matches. I'll spare you the details, suffice to say that I had reached one of those points in life that just needed some chilling out for awhile.
Likewise, after an intense 2004-2006 running local monthly 2-gun/3-gun matches, I have all but dropped out during 2007 since (1) continuation of my 2/3-gun venue became no longer viable operationally, (2) I have even less free time now than ever, and (3) I am not really sure what direction I now want to take shooting-wise. Other than managing to attend a couple of other 3-gun matches over the summer, most of this year has been spent just plinking from various weapon platforms to get a feel for what may grab me. Maybe I'll rediscover happiness in the coming year.:rolleyes:
Neat thread -
Boy, some of you guys are so spot on with your observations. I think everyone has their own reasons for shooting matches, but there are usually a lot of common themes with folks who shoot games.
I think for me though it boils down alot to setting and achieving goals. I'm basically a performance junkie and I love to compete. I've been competing in some arena since I was a teenager.
Practical shooting whether USPSA, IDPA, or 3 gun type events build exceptional gun handling/shooting skills [period]. It's platform to help you develop a much higher level of performance with a pistol [or whatever] than just about any other activity.
Over the years, though, I've always been intriqued by some of strong anit-competition shooting mindset that some folks throw out there. Man, I can understand if a guy or gal just doesn't want to do it - not their thing or whatever. But to more or less go on the offensive toward others who choose this endeavor makes me wonder what's really going on with them. We've all seen those types.
I think, based on my own observations, that the root cause behind some folks taking a passionate stance against this can be summed up in one word - FEAR. It's the fear of failure and/or the fear of damaging the ego. This isn't that different than some people who fear public speaking more than death.
Competition is one of the "great levelers" of ego. Pure and simple.
I do it because it fits my personality to reach the highest levels of performance possible. I do it to win. Lots of times I lose, but I never quit. I do it to achieve my personal shooting goals. I do it to see the documentable evidence over time that I am in fact getting better on a given sent of benchmark drills. I do it to be around like minded people who share the same interests as I do. I do it to help others and share the things that I learn. And I do it because I'm not afraid to expose my ego in the arena while others are watching.
That's just me though...:)
Over the years, though, I've always been intriqued by some of strong anit-competition shooting mindset that some folks throw out there. Man, I can understand if a guy or gal just doesn't want to do it - not their thing or whatever. But to more or less go on the offensive toward others who choose this endeavor makes me wonder what's really going on with them. We've all seen those types.
I think, based on my own observations, that the root cause behind some folks taking a passionate stance against this can be summed up in one word - FEAR. It's the fear of failure and/or the fear of damaging the ego. This isn't that different than some people who fear public speaking more than death.
Competition is one of the "great levelers" of ego. Pure and simple.
There is much truth stated above!
I think Bryan is "spot on." I haven't shot many matches partly due to health issues, other than photographs. I've shot a few IDPA, Glock, and finally in the past several months a couple of USPSA matches and a steel match. Watching USPSA matches and shooting pictures at the matches along with gotm4's prodding started me in USPSA. I enjoy it much more than IDPA. I'm not really very competitive, but I am not anti-competition. I think it is a great way to get rounds downrange safely under slightly stressful conditions.
Negative people will often try to drag down someone of whom they are jealous, so they try to minimize the other person's abilities. They are the ones losing out on a good experience and a lot of fun doing it.
I think Bryan is "spot on." I haven't shot many matches partly due to health issues, other than photographs. I've shot a few IDPA, Glock, and finally in the past several months a couple of USPSA matches and a steel match. Watching USPSA matches and shooting pictures at the matches along with gotm4's prodding started me in USPSA. I enjoy it much more than IDPA. I'm not really very competitive, but I am not anti-competition. I think it is a great way to get rounds downrange safely under slightly stressful conditions.
Negative people will often try to drag down someone of whom they are jealous, so they try to minimize the other person's abilities. They are the ones losing out on a good experience and a lot of fun doing it.
9x19 -
Good luck with your shooting. USPSA is a lot of fun for sure and you're more open to push the envelope.
I very much remember my first USPSA major match, which was the 94 Limited Nationals in Reno, NV. I had just started shooting and was lucky enough to get an extra slot that our section had, so I got to go with some friends to shoot. It was a real eye opener for me personally. My first classification was C class and that was my first experience seeing the very best pistol shooters on the planet, in person, shooting. I was pretty much in awe of how fast they were driving the gun. I'm pretty sure that was a big driver in pushing my own goals higher over the years.
Train hard; set some good short term / long term goals for your shooting; practice effectively; watch videos of yourself if you can; learn as much as you can from others about the sport, the mechanics of high performance shooting, and mental preperation for sports. You'll be on your way for sure.....
Dang, that's a pretty long "to do" list.... sorry bout that...lol Hey, just have fun and shoot A's, real fast... :D
I very much remember my first USPSA major match, which was the 94 Limited Nationals in Reno, NV.
I have that match on VHS, complete with Doug Boykin drawing his gun prematurely on a stage where the shooter started facing uprange. I suspect he was not DQ'd because he was in the super squad.
But as always, I could be wrong. :D
SIMPLYDYNAMIC
01-03-08, 05:02
I treat shooting IPSC and IDPA like an electrical panel...
before I step in the game mode I turn off all the tactical breakers and keep the heavy ones on like fundamentals, movement, sighted and unsighted fire, etc... and use the game as a building tool just for those circuits that are still on... then when I leave I turn all back on.
I think its a great proficiency tool for the fundamentals, we just need to know in our mind where the line is.
Gunfighter13
01-03-08, 05:09
When I have the time, I enjoy shooting competitions as a fun outlet to spend time with other people that enjoy the same passion for shooting that I have. Win or loose does not matter that much to me. If I have a good time and get some trigger time, I am happy. Don’t get me wrong I like to win and work hard to win.
I never have understood why some tactical instructors look down on “shooting games”. Any sport that develops hand and eye coordination, builds muscle memory, increases your speed and accuracy has to help when you find yourself in a real gunfight. I’m all about tactical training but competitions are just another “gun drill” to help the tools in your toolbox work.
SIMPLYDYNAMIC
01-03-08, 05:19
Well said, again any instructor that says that or looks down upon is being absolute and says something about himself...
Well said, again any instructor that says that or looks down upon is being absolute and says something about himself...
exactly -
I never have understood why some tactical instructors look down on “shooting games”.
Lots of reasons -
Some are true believers
Some have over inflated egos
Some have tried and been beaten, never to return to the game
Some have never tried and drink the Kool Aide spouted by the true believers
Some have actually tried it and done well - LAV is a good example. Probably one of the best / well rounded instructors out there, IMO. There are more but he comes to mind.
I think its a great proficiency tool for the fundamentals, we just need to know in our mind where the line is.
Great point and it's just common sense. Shooting IPSC never kept me from seeking cover on the street as a cop.
Some have actually tried it and done well - LAV is a good example. Probably one of the best / well rounded instructors out there, IMO. There are more but he comes to mind.
I believe there are a significant number of "true believers" who either don't know that Larry Vickers is a USPSA GM or they are in denial about it. I think some of them would have strokes if they had to acknowledge that reality.
I have a friend who is a cop in Illinois who was a combat controller in the US Air Force before he became a police officer. He's pretty much a tactical beast. He also happens to have an "M" card in Limited and a charter annual USPSA number. I don't think there is any doubt where his shooting skills were primarily developed, and they certainly complement the other skills he has.
I believe there are a significant number of "true believers" who either don't know that Larry Vickers is a USPSA GM or they are in denial about it. I think some of them would have strokes if they had to acknowledge that reality.
I have a friend who is a cop in Illinois who was a combat controller in the US Air Force before he became a police officer. He's pretty much a tactical beast. He also happens to have an "M" card in Limited and a charter annual USPSA number. I don't think there is any doubt where his shooting skills were primarily developed, and they certainly complement the other skills he has.
I've only shot a few majors that LAV shot - I think the first two Single Stack Classic matches, he was there - the first one for sure. He's the real deal on multiple fronts.
I treat shooting IPSC and IDPA like an electrical panel...
before I step in the game mode I turn off all the tactical breakers and keep the heavy ones on like fundamentals, movement, sighted and unsighted fire, etc... and use the game as a building tool just for those circuits that are still on... then when I leave I turn all back on.
I think its a great proficiency tool for the fundamentals, we just need to know in our mind where the line is.
Hey Travis,
I checked out your website. Impressive background and I think it's cool you guys are in the shooting sports side as well. Good on you man! That builds even more credibility in my book. Good luck!
I shot the Single Stack Classic in 1997, the last time it was at the Milan club. It was a great match, but I haven't been back because I've been boycotting Illinois since 1998.
I still remember clearly the incident on the "Swinging El Prez" stage where the RO forced me to wear the jacket provided by the match instead of my own jacket. It was at least six sizes too small, and after a long discussion with repeated warnings and appeals to logic, I complied with his directions and shredded the jacket as I put it on ... the classic "big guy in a tiny jacket" routine. :D I heard later that the jacket was his prized for working the match, so he got what he deserved. What a douchebag. :rolleyes:
Robb Jensen
01-04-08, 22:23
Damn you guys make me fell young at (37yrs old). I didn't shoot me first match until 2004. :eek:
Damn you guys make me fell young at (37yrs old). I didn't shoot me first match until 2004. :eek:
My underwear is older than you are, Robb! :D
I didn't start shooting until 1994, though. I was 29, so I got a late start in life. Most people I know have been shooting their whole lives, even if they just started competitions recently.
Robb Jensen
01-04-08, 22:45
My underwear is older than you are, Robb! :D
I didn't start shooting until 1994, though. I was 29, so I got a late start in life. Most people I know have been shooting their whole lives, even if they just started competitions recently.
I've been shooting since 1975 (age 5), just not matches!
I've been shooting since 1975 (age 5), just not matches!
I'm 44 - started in 94 and shot until 98 - I walked away to do other things for a number of years and then started back up in 2005.
Rhino,
I shot the first two SSC matches - both at the Milan club. I still have one of them on video. Those were great matches.
I've been shooting since 1975 (age 5), just not matches!
You got a head start!
I started learning to shoot in 1994. I didn't realize how much fun it was until I shot in a match for the first time in either 94 or 95. It was intoxicating! I think most of us have had the same experience.
And then I discovered 3-gun . . .
Robb Jensen
01-05-08, 11:51
And then I discovered 3-gun . . .
Yep 3gun is like crack!
I find 3gun the most fun, then USPSA, then Steel Challenge, then it's a tie for me for IDPA and GSSF. I actually probably find GSSF a little more fun because it's so accuracy oriented (time matters but imperfect shots will ruin you, leave a plate standing and 10sec is added to your time).
I'm 44 - started in 94 and shot until 98 - I walked away to do other things for a number of years and then started back up in 2005.
Rhino,
I shot the first two SSC matches - both at the Milan club. I still have one of them on video. Those were great matches.
I think that would have been 95 and 96, correct?
When I started with USPSA, I used my current primary carry gun (a lightweight Para-Ordnance P14.45) and had not experienced the pleasures of the single stack 1911A1. When the 1911 Society was born, my club started having Single Stack matches immediately after the USPSA match using the same stages, but with 1911 Society Rules. I had to borrow a Colt from my brother, but I quickly learned how much fun it was to shoot single stack guns.
After I got my own single stack (a Colt 1991 Commander), I started shooting it in USPSA too because I enjoyed it more. That was in the days when we only had Limited and Open, but I liked my single stack better. People used to complain that they "had" to reload more with skinny guns, but from my perspective I had the opportunity to practice my reloads more often during the match. ;)
When Limited-10 was born, I got some 10-rd mags and shot that division primarily until 1911 Single Stack divison came along. Now I shoot my 9rd 9mm. It eats for cheap!
Yep 3gun is like crack!
I find 3gun the most fun, then USPSA, then Steel Challenge, then it's a tie for me for IDPA and GSSF. I actually probably find GSSF a little more fun because it's so accuracy oriented (time matters but imperfect shots will ruin you, leave a plate standing and 10sec is added to your time).
This may sounds crazy, but I think you should also try NRA Action Pistol if you have not done so already. If you like GSSF, you will see that the GSSF events were probably modeled after NRA AP matches. When you read about NRA AP, it sounds a little boring, but when you actually do it, it's a lot of fun. You also get to fire 192 rounds each match, and it's very accuracy intensive, but with time limits as well.
I do the following:
USPSA and other 3-gun/Multi-gun
USPSA pistol
NRA Action Pistol
Steel Challenge (club matches)
IDPA
and even some bowling pins occasionally
I keep threatening to shoot some trap to improve my shotgunning, but it's too much like practice! :D
I think that would have been 95 and 96, correct?
When I started with USPSA, I used my current primary carry gun (a lightweight Para-Ordnance P14.45) and had not experienced the pleasures of the single stack 1911A1. When the 1911 Society was born, my club started having Single Stack matches immediately after the USPSA match using the same stages, but with 1911 Society Rules. I had to borrow a Colt from my brother, but I quickly learned how much fun it was to shoot single stack guns.
After I got my own single stack (a Colt 1991 Commander), I started shooting it in USPSA too because I enjoyed it more. That was in the days when we only had Limited and Open, but I liked my single stack better. People used to complain that they "had" to reload more with skinny guns, but from my perspective I had the opportunity to practice my reloads more often during the match. ;)
When Limited-10 was born, I got some 10-rd mags and shot that division primarily until 1911 Single Stack divison came along. Now I shoot my 9rd 9mm. It eats for cheap!
Correct, the first SSC was in 95 I believe.
I started with a single stack too and then migrated to a para then the STI/SVI Limited guns.
I started with a single stack too and then migrated to a para then the STI/SVI Limited guns.
I did it backwards. Maybe I'll switch to revolver soon. :D
I did it backwards. Maybe I'll switch to revolver soon. :D
That sounds brutal Rhino...:eek:
Damn you guys make me fell young at (37yrs old). I didn't shoot me first match until 2004. :eek:
I'm 50 in less than one month ! ! ! :eek: :eek: :eek:
(1) plinking .22 since elementary-school age,
(2) adopted legally armed home/self defense (and plenty of for-fun range practice) somewhere ~ mid-1980's
(3) USPSA limited and limited-10 from 1994-2002 (on-and-off)
(4) IDPA (all catagories) from 1998-2006, and with alternating monthly rifle and shotgun side matches 2003-2006, and
(5) 3-gun 2006 to present, although I all but took off during 2007, attending only three matches the entire year.
The rifle and shotgun side matches our local IDPA used to include were the best part of those matches, but sadly became no longer viable to continue beyond 2006. I agree that 3-gun is the ultimate, and our current local production does a phenomenal job (see here: http://bc3g.ath.cx/ and here: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7508 ) Pistol-only matches now seem -- well, just anemic really.
Hence, I have pretty much dropped out of IDPA and been looking for a "new direction" shooting-wise. I was thinking lately that I hadn't really made any New Year's resolutions, that is until the thought occurred that our current 3-gun venue will not be around forever. So I've "resolved" to attend as many of these as possible during 2008 and hopefully beyond, while they're still around. I know I won't be able to make every month, especially once work gets really busy later this spring and summer, but I'm going to get to as many of them as I can. One day they too will be a thing of the past.
That sounds brutal Rhino...:eek:
I was totally bluffing! When I shoot a revolver, where the bullets go is essentially random. :D
I turn 41 here in a couple months, but started shooting at 18. My first competition was Cowboy Action, which I started 4 or 5 yrs ago. Did that for several years, and did NRA Smallbore Bullseye also. A couple years ago, did some NRA 3 Position Smallbore shooting and a couple of NRA Highpower matches.
Tried 3-Gun for the first time at Blck Creek a little over a year ago, and took me 'till last Nov. to get back.
I like both CAS and 3-Gun, but since working 2nd shift for a couple years now and working 2 jobs its hard to get to the range at all. Also had to give up NRA 3 Position Junior Marksmanship coaching. Right now, I'm really more interested in 3-Gun. It just seems more applicable to my life at this point, but I still want to do more CAS in the future.
........My first competition was Cowboy Action, which I started 4 or 5 yrs ago.......I still want to do more CAS in the future.
CAS sounds great Nate. I've heard a lot of good about it: fun stages, high round count, etc. The gear is cool too. I also know some really good guys who are constantly urging me to join them. Maybe eventually.
Robb Jensen
01-10-08, 06:24
"We are shooters.
We are driven by something to do it better.
Maybe faster, maybe with more precision. Maybe both.
I don't know why we care, but we do.
If we were Golfers, we'd bathe in money and be toweled by hotties.
But that doesn't move us.
This does."
---Steve Anderson
Well that bit with the towel sounds pretty decent too.
Barry in IN
01-14-08, 16:33
I shot the first two SSC matches - both at the Milan club.
Ahhh Milan. I never shot there but heard about it often.
I started shooting Highpower in 1989 in northern IL, and Milan was "on the circuit" for those that didn't miss any matches.
Robb Jensen
01-14-08, 20:37
I found this one on the Enos forum today:
A young man, a boastful champion challenged a Zen master who was renowned for his skill as an archer. The young man demonstrated remarkable technical proficiency when he hit a distant bull's eye on his first try, and then split that arrow with his second shot. He challenged the Zen master to face him. "There," he said to the old man, "see if you can match that!" Undisturbed, the master did not draw his bow, but rather motioned for the young archer to follow him up the mountain. Curious about the old fellow's intentions, the champion followed him high into the mountain until they reached a deep chasm spanned by a rather flimsy and shaky log. Calmly stepping out onto the middle of the unsteady and precariously hanging bridge, the old master picked a far away tree as a target, drew his bow, and fired a clean, direct hit. “Now please try”, Zen Master said as he gracefully stepped back onto the safe ground. Staring with terror into the seemingly bottomless and beckoning abyss, the young man could not force himself to step out onto the log, no less shoot at a target. "You have much skill with your bow," the master said, sensing his challenger's predicament, "but you have little skill with the mind that lets loose the shot."
It reminds me of the difference between confidence and arrogance.
Those of you who arrived at the Enos Forums after my departure should probably search for "the day the pants failed." I think it's in the humor forum.
Good one Robb.
I'm still picturing that towel job though......:rolleyes:
Barry in IN
01-15-08, 11:15
Those of you who arrived at the Enos Forums after my departure should probably search for "the day the pants failed." I think it's in the humor forum.
Oh, I don't think I care to do that.
Oh, I don't think I care to do that.
You know you want to do it! Stop trying to resist! It's futile!
Barry in IN
01-16-08, 12:36
Uhhh, maybe I'll just wait and have you demo it at a match.
Or better, when you come to visit a YFA class.
Well, I'll just have to help: The Day the Pants Failed (http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=8001)
Barry in IN
01-18-08, 11:49
Well, since you dangled it in front of me I read it.
Holy pants.
Did this happen at Deer Creek? And is this what closed it down?
Well, since you dangled it in front of me I read it.
Holy pants.
Did this happen at Deer Creek? And is this what closed it down?
Heh! No, it was at Wildcat Valley at a Regional IDPA match they hosted. I don't think they ever had IDPA at Deer Creek, although they should (and USPSA too).
The problem at Deer Creek was the same problem that plagues ACC currently (i.e. one person).
Barry in IN
01-18-08, 17:27
Being on the BE forum, I automatically thought it was USPSA.
Besides, that was the only place I could think of that was gone.
Understood about the reason. I'd like to see "the reason" locked in a room for about a month with a certain "shall remain nameless" IDPA version of him (albeit shorter). Whatever the result, it would help things.
At least matches would be more fun while both were in there.
Hey Rhino, was the RO in Milan, Russell?
Hey Rhino, was the RO in Milan, Russell?
Good question! I only "know" Russell C from online. The "personality" certainly fits, but the guy in question seemed inexperienced (to say the least). If it was him, well, I hope he likes his jacket.
My path is unlikely to ever cross that of either Russell or that RO (assuming they were different people) since I'm not returning to Illinois unless and until they fix their gun laws.
Robb Jensen
01-24-08, 07:22
I like this one:
"When you're betting for stones in an archery contest, you shoot with skill. When you're betting for fancy belt buckles, you worry about your aim. And when you're betting for real gold, you're a nervous wreck. Your skill is the same in all three cases - but because one prize means more to you than another, you let outside concerns weigh on your mind. He who looks too hard at the outside gets clumsy on the inside."
-Chuang Tzu
I awoke last night contemplating the upcoming BC3G match tomorrow, and for some reason recalling the times when I or another shooter have had something go terribly wrong (major equipment failure, etc.) to end up way behind the pack, or even finishing with a DNF. That's hard to take after going to all the trouble and expense of preparing for and getting to the match. Also usually requires some re-think to adequately motivate for the next one.
I'm certainly not expecting anything along these lines tomorrow. My equipment has been pretty well assembled -- thanks to the help of some friends here :) -- and by now equally shook-out on the range. Anything can happen anytime though, so it's something you need to be ready for.
Along the same lines, I've seen a very top-shelf competetor (who shall remain nameless -- although think locally-based multi-world champion) once commit a blatantly obvious and rather dangerous ND, but not be called on it because of Who he is.
By contrast, another "nobody" shooter (but who I know from the past ~2 decades to be among the best of guys) once subtly sent an errant round quite safely into the berm just as he was finishing a stage. I barely noticed it, and don't think anyone else would have either including his RO. This shooter did though -- and being an honorable man -- just bagged his gear, waved, and said see you all next month. His results entry read "DQ".
I wonder which of the two is really the "best" shooter......
This thread seemed to me the appropriate place to pass along these thoughts.
Robb Jensen
01-25-08, 08:00
I think I know who you're talking about. Had that been me I would have taken the DQ. It's disappointing that he didn't. If I were in the top 20 shooters in the world and DQ'd I'd happily take it and show 'hey everyone is human even the best of the best'. I think it would have made a good point to new competitive shooters that it happens to everyone eventually. I've been DQ'd before but not for firing a round when I wasn't suppose to but for simply for coming to a 'hot' range (hot=loaded concealed pistol). This was at the NRA Range IDPA match = hot during business hours BUT NOT HOT until the RO/SO tells you to load and make ready, then you stay hot the rest of the match. Totally strange but it is what it is.
I've seen a few "top" competitors get away with ADs. Benefit of being worshipped by the unwashed masses, I suppose. Certainly not the only thing they get away with.
As for the NRA Range thing, it's a problem that's bitten more than a few people. As gotM4 said, it's a hot range, except on match days ... but there is absolutely nothing posted to tell you that. You're simply supposed to know that the matches are cold. Then, ironically, the IDPA match is run hot! But you still have to come through the door and leave with an empty gun. :confused:
.....Certainly not the only thing they get away with......
On another occasion, the above unnamed had brought along a nicely shaped "friend", who upon shooting a stage had obviously filled her mag beyond the 10-round limit (both this and the first cited incident were local IDPA matches). A very boisterous and diversionary "discussion" then took place as to "what happened", with the result of once again bascially being allowed to break the same rule anyone else would have received a failure-to-do-right from.
I appreciate when the top shooters help others by passing along tips and otherwise providing support. I do not like, however, when the competitive spirit reaches the point of bending/breaking rules by taking advantage of one's social status. I can't respect advice from anyone -- however expert -- who doesn't possess enough character to take the same lumps as the rest of us.
I too have boycotted Illinois, mostly because I now reside in Arizona, I used to go
to Milan with Tom Kilhoffer, soyou know that was a while ago.
Almost ancient history! :D
There are three types of competitors, regardless of level:
The ones who argue with the RO trying to get out of trouble.
The ones who say, "you make the call, I'll abide by your ruling" and hope for the best.
And the ones who are the first to say, "Hey, did you see what I just did? That's a Procedural. Sorry!"
People in the first group are intolerable. People in the last group are rare, but they're out there even at the top levels of competition.
There are three types of competitors, regardless of level:
The ones who argue with the RO trying to get out of trouble.
The ones who say, "you make the call, I'll abide by your ruling" and hope for the best.
And the ones who are the first to say, "Hey, did you see what I just did? That's a Procedural. Sorry!"
People in the first group are intolerable. People in the last group are rare, but they're out there even at the top levels of competition.
Todd,
That's an interesting observation and well put. I'd have to agree with that as being the 3 behavioral traits of competitors for sure. I try to avoid being around folks in that first group - it really takes the fun out of shooting for me.
.....I try to avoid being around folks in that first group - it really takes the fun out of shooting for me.
I unfortunately have been often enough. Their policy is that to be truly competitive you should seek every advantage, and that arguing over the application of rules is all part of "The Game".
A large part of the reason I dropped out of IPSC/USPSA after ~10 years. Just lost the taste for it, being around all of that.
Now shoot at a local and wholly un-sanctioned 3-gun venue, where everyone just wants to have a good time. :D
Robb Jensen
02-07-08, 07:11
I find that most USPSA shooters exploit the rules. I don't mind this, though it did take some adjustment to get used to it for me having been an IDPA shooter first.
I find that I like USPSA more than IDPA because I'm not told "how-to" shoot a stage in USPSA. I like having to figure it out for myself, having to think it out is half of the fun for me. Many times times I'll have done things 'less efficiently' than I could have by not 'seeing' something, timing something just right or thinking in through as good as I should have. For me this learning along the way is good. When I see a really challenging stage (high round count, lots of movement etc) and I think I have it all figured out, I'm then like a raging bull I want to kick that stages ass!
I've met some shooters that hate having to figure out any stage and just blinding want to go and shoot the stages. To me it's like herding a cow, (the shooter being the cow) what fun is it to the cow? I find that in IDPA stage design and the 'spirit' of IDPA many times forces you to shoot it only one way and thus that is not very fun to me.
I love 3gun the best too. Nobody cares who wins or who loses, it's just great fun with friends with lots of run'n' & gun'n and making lots of empty hulls and brass! :D
The two most things I would like to see USPSA change would be switching to the IPSC classic targets. I think this would artificially slow people down and bring some of the accuracy back to the sport. This is one of the reasons why I like Production over Limited. In Production, because everything is scored as minor PF....points matter more. In Limited it seems speed matters more, because of the scoring differences of Major/Minor PF and that they don't have to reload very often.
http://www.ipsc.org.au/FAQ/Targets/Classic_Target.gif
I would also like to see the rules for the capacity of Production changed from 10 rounds to whatever the gun will hold (but must be a factory brand standard length mag), so Glock and M&P would hold 17+1, SIG, Beretta, SA-XD would be 15+1 etc.
The 10 round mag limit made perfect sense back during the AWB. For those 3-4 states that still have restrictions there could be Production-10 just like there is Limited-10 now.
......I find that most USPSA shooters exploit the rules......
......I like USPSA more than IDPA because I'm not told "how-to" shoot a stage in USPSA. I like having to figure it out for myself.......
......I love 3gun the best too. Nobody cares who wins or who loses, it's just great fun with friends.......
......I would also like to see the rules for the capacity of Production changed from 10 rounds to whatever the gun will hold.......
+1 all-the-above
CarlosDJackal
03-27-08, 09:30
I'm not much of an IPSC participant (it's been years since I shot one) primarily because (a) they allow walk throughs and (b) because of the normally high round count, I have the bad habit of shooting as much as I can in those matches. Not that there is anything wrong with IPSC, it's just not my cup of tea. Although it is a lot more appealing now that they have a Production Division.
My preference for shooting matches are the truly surprise stages where nobody gets the upper hand. I like being forced to quickly absorb the situation and having to come up with a solution on the spot. Unfortunately, because it is so hard to implement such a stage, they are rarely used. In fact, the last truly surprise stage that I shot was at the NRA Range IDPA matches in Fairfax, VA back when Todd G was still running those matches. So what I tend to do now is I sometimes elect not read the COFs ahead of time. This puts extra stress on me when I get on the firing line.
There is a reason why there are a lot of different shooting sports out there and I believe that it is arrogant for anyone to put one sport down over another. However, I believe that certain shooting sports do promote some bad habits. PPC comes to mind. Their insistence on using the Police B-27 targets as it was developed many decades ago is one reason I do not shoot those matches. The one and only time I ever did, mys cores were so low because I was aiming for the Upper Center of Mass - which turned out to be the 8-ring. Even head shots count for less than this. But for those individuals who like the precision of a bullseye match but shot at varying ranges, this sport may be for them.
One of the things that drive me crazy is when people call these sports "training". I don't care what anyone says, competition is not training. Some of them, however, compliment training when approached with the proper mindset. For example, I tell people that if you approach an IDPA match as a "Tactician", the chances of you winning is pretty slim. If you want to win a match, you have to be willing to "game" it. I also want to point out that there is absolutely no problem with being a "Gamer" as long as you operate within the rules otherwise you're nothing more than a cheating bastard (ie: I know of someone who actually changed his score sheet during a match and was caught doing so).
Competition is a great environment to:
(1) Test ones skills and equipment.
(2) Learn some new skills and equipment.
(3) Meet like-minded individuals and just shoot the bull.
As the old saying goes, a bad day at the range sure beats a good day at the office!! :)
Carlos -- actually, one of the benefits of USPSA over IDPA is that you can shoot the stage without paying much attention to the stage description. You don't have to worry about being told where/when to reload, etc. You're either in a shooting zone or you're not.
I agree with the round count thing; it's one reason I tend to shoot Limited with my carry gun rather than Production. Even though I'm giving up points (shooting Minor instead of Major), there aren't usually too many stages that can't be solved with 52 rounds at a Production-friendly match. It means I carry two spare magazines instead of one. I can live with that.
Surprise stages are great in concept but they're very hard to enforce, especially at major matches. It only takes one guy telling a buddy or teammate what's in there and suddenly it's a very uneven competition. Surprise stages are great for training and fun for local matches among friends, but they tend to ruin big matches.
I'm wondering today "why I do it."
I'm going to travel 4.5 hours (each way) to a multi-gun match on Saturday to shoot. The ankle I sprained a few weeks ago still hurts like heck. I don't have the time to spare from my work. I can't afford the gas or the ammunition expenditure.
Yet, I'm going to do it.
Maybe I'm addicted. :D
......Surprise stages are great in concept but they're very hard to enforce, especially at major matches. It only takes one guy telling a buddy or teammate what's in there and suddenly it's a very uneven competition.......
I've seen some where they change or move things around between each shooter, so although everybody has a general idea in advance, nobody can know exactly what they will need to do once they "go in".
Another major difficulty for match organizers though is the amount of stage construction required to keep everything out of view (walls, baffles, etc.).
I've seen some where they change or move things around between each shooter, so although everybody has a general idea in advance, nobody can know exactly what they will need to do once they "go in".
This is also fine for local matches, but a bad idea for major events. Little changes can mean an extra second gained or lost. I'e shot a few big matches with stages like that, and it essentially makes the scores meaningless.
At the NH State IDPA Championship one year, they had a stage which required you to move about 10 feet L or R (your choice) to hit a pepper popper which would reveal a final "hidden" target. If you were lucky, the popper dropped and the "hidden" target was right in front of you. If you were unlucky, the popper dropped and you had to move, crouching behind cover, 20' to the other shooting position. Nothing wrong with that for training, but it's hugely unfair for a competition.
At the FL/GA "Border Disorder" a couple years back, they had a room-clearing type stage which required you to go down a hall until you found and neutralized five targets. You could find all five targets in the first three "rooms" off the hall, or you might have to clear to more "rooms" to find them all depending on where the Range Officers put the targets from shooter to shooter. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the people who had to clear an extra room or two were at a huge disadvantage.
This is also fine for local matches, but a bad idea for major events. Little changes can mean an extra second gained or lost. I'e shot a few big matches with stages like that, and it essentially makes the scores meaningless.......
I agree that between-shooter changes can introduce advantages/disadvantages, but not that they must. I've seen several good examples of stages along these lines that presented every shooter with a wholly equal challenge. Clearly the designer must think through the stage carefully. Keeping the changed elements simple and systematic is needed to maintain an even playing field.
Absolutely. Scott Warren even proposed a rule change to IDPA HQ years ago that gave very specific ways that you could have "random" elements in a COF without disadvantaging anyone. The proposed rule, which was simple, elegant, and effective, was of course rejected. :rolleyes:
There are so many little things that can have little effects. How far do you have to pie a corner? How far are your target-to-target transitions? Will one setup allow for a more convenient reload than another? Will everyone need to take the same number of steps? Etc.
Absolutely. Scott Warren even proposed a rule change to IDPA HQ years ago that gave very specific ways that you could have "random" elements in a COF without disadvantaging anyone. The proposed rule, which was simple, elegant, and effective, was of course rejected. :rolleyes: .......
That's interesting. It was actually at one of my local IDPA venues that I've seen this done the most effectively. This particular MD has a skill at it. I -- and probably he -- didn't know a specific rule was needed on it.
I've not shot there or at any other IDPA for well over a year (doing entirely 3-gun now), so am out-of-the-loop as far as current status.
There is no question that intelligent, experienced, reasonable people can design stages with a certain amount of "randomness" and still keep everything on an even footing for all competitors.
The percentage of Match Directors and stage designers who are (a) intelligent, (b) experienced, and (c) reasonable is only about 50%, though, which is why it's not uncommon to see "random" stages which are decidedly not fair for all competitors.
Robb Jensen
04-07-08, 08:15
"Those little things you see, that trivial stuff you notice, it all gets stored in your subconscious skill.
And once it's tucked away, it becomes part of the shooter.
Not the student, not the practicing observer, but the shooter.
The shooter forgets all of this and shoots, allowing all the lessons to work under the surface. And the lessons surface when someone tells you, "Hey, you moved just like Max on that one..."
Cool.
Don't stop believin'."
--Steve Anderson
Max = Max Michel Jr. (http://www.maxmichel.com/Bio.htm)
There is no question that intelligent, experienced, reasonable people can design stages with a certain amount of "randomness" and still keep everything on an even footing for all competitors.
The percentage of Match Directors and stage designers who are (a) intelligent, (b) experienced, and (c) reasonable is only about 50%, though, which is why it's not uncommon to see "random" stages which are decidedly not fair for all competitors.
Tell me about it, windows that are so high, that I can only see sky through them! :eek:
Yeah, ports and cover can be really tricky. As a stage designer, you eventually just have to accept that there are times when big people get an advantage and times when little people get an advantage, times when a right hander gets screwed and times when a left hander gets screwed. You hope, theoretically, that it all evens out eventually.
Robb Jensen
04-07-08, 19:33
"The human body, especially under stress is very bad at measuring time. Therefore, trying to shoot fast is always (FOR ME) a bad idea.
Break the shots when the sights tell you to.
I have experienced beautiful, slow motion moments where the eyes spoke to the fingers and the brain just watched. Always a superior score.
Problem is, you can't make yourself do it. Thinking about not thinking is the same as thinking. (I think. )
Maybe this is meditating while shooting.
The other problem is, when you have some success at this whole shoot your pace idea, it's easy to start thinking that you've conquered some great obstacle and go out and hose one. Upon which the cycle re-starts.
Ah, the mental game.
On the holster/grip, I would suggest (after ditching a problem holster) 50 draws a night to a sight picture only, without pulling the trigger. Use a smallish target.
Your index will thank you.
The bullet doesn't care how good/bad your grip is, it goes where the sights tell it to go.
Oh yeah, you probly are not wasting as much time as you think getting the sights aligned."
--Steve Anderson
GotM4, where is the Steve Anderson you are quoting from? Wondering if its the same trainer from an agecy up this way that came to an agency I used to work for.
Probably not the same guy, unless "up this way" is Ohio.
Steve Anderson is a GM USPSA shooter who is a big advocate of methodical, structured dry fire practice, always using the sights, and the mental aspects of shooting. He's written a couple of books on dry fire practice that are hugely popular among competitive action/practical shooters.
Anderson Shooting (http://www.andersonshooting.com)
Barry in IN
04-08-08, 11:37
Here's an example of "Why I Do It":
I shot an IDPA match Saturday, and had a malfunction. This was the second one I've had with that gun (5,200 rounds). Both were with the same magazine, and I had some extra light sounding/feeling rounds that day, so one of those two things were probably the cause.
Anyway-
When it happened, the first thing I did was reach for my pocket where the BUG is carried. It wasn't there, since I leave it in the truck for matches. Good thing too- I think they frown on using two guns at once.
It probably added at least a second or two to my time that was already going to be toast from clearing the malf, but it was well worth it to show me that my practice is paying off.
And that is an example of one reason why I go: To see if my practice is working.
I can practice doing things the right way in the woods, and do that forever, but I want to go somewhere else and SEE that I'm going to do it that way when I don't have time to think about it.
If I'm faced with a problem at match and have a choice between the fast way or the "tactical" way and have to make that choice RIGHT NOW, I want to make the "tactical" choice without thinking about it. But if I go to a match and the "need for speed" overrides what I know is best, I need to work on that some more.
I've spotted a lot of stuff that way before. "Why the f___ did I walk out there in the open when I didn't have to?" is a good example.
I'd like to add that Barry is one of the very few people who practices what he's preaching above. I know (and know of) a lot of people who claim their primary interest in shooting matches is to practice or test their defensive skills. In most cases, how they shoot the match says otherwise.
The cool thing is, even though Barry shoots from concealment and pretends to use cover (in USPSA matches where such actions are uncommon), he still does pretty well in the actual competition. BRAVO, Barry!
Barry in IN
04-08-08, 13:26
Garsh. Thanks, Rhino.
I didn't use much cover at the last WVPPS match (since there wasn't much cover to use), so I just went with the flow rather than run around the berm and shoot around it!
But even those kinds of matches can make you think.
Take the "speed" stage in that match as an example. If there are just a couple of threats, who are face-on and not moving, and cover is a looooong way away if there at all...
Are you better off just standing still to shoot better and put as much metal on meat in the least amount of time?
Or,
Are you better off trying to make it to that distant cover as quickly as you can manage while shooting the whole way?
Or,
A compromise of not heading for cover, yet still moving in a somewhat random manner, while mainly working on getting rounds on target ASAP?
Or,
Just heading for cover as fast as you can go, holding your fire until you reach that cover, so you can a) run faster without screwing with the gun, and b)save the ammo for when you can use it more effectively?
Oh, the things we can ponder.
BTW, I think I would go with the compromise choice there- Moving but not exactly heading for the distant cover, while trying to pound them with lead ASAP.
Similar to Barry, I had a stovepipe occur while shooting USPSA on Sunday (in Indiana no less).
This occurred during a mandated mag change so I cleared the stovepipe, and finished the mag change. After the stage I discovered that the top of my slide had a red stripe on it.
I had been shooting through a wooden frame that was painted florescent orange and had gotten the gun up against the top of the frame during recoil and it had slowed the slide down enough to cause the spend case to not eject properly.
Good training!
Also good that I discovered the stovepipe before I opened the door that was next in the stage. Better to solve problems behind concealment/cover than when exposed.....
Buckaroo
Probably not the same guy, unless "up this way" is Ohio.
Steve Anderson is a GM USPSA shooter who is a big advocate of methodical, structured dry fire practice, always using the sights, and the mental aspects of shooting. He's written a couple of books on dry fire practice that are hugely popular among competitive action/practical shooters.
Anderson Shooting (http://www.andersonshooting.com)
Different guy. I'm thinking of one that's a highly regarded deputy sheriff on the training division of a metro agency in MN.
Robb Jensen
04-08-08, 20:05
Different guy. I'm thinking of one that's a highly regarded deputy sheriff on the training division of a metro agency in MN.
The one I'm quoting is Steve Anderson the GrandMaster USPSA shooter.
.....I had been shooting through a wooden frame that was painted florescent orange and had gotten the gun up against the top of the frame during recoil and it had slowed the slide down enough to cause the spend case to not eject properly.......
It's difficult to resist the impulse to crowd things like ports and barricades. Better to stand back a step and -- although still maintaining cover -- engage the targets as they appear while keeping the gun clear of any obstacles.
Robb Jensen
04-09-08, 06:55
Steve Anderson is one fast and accurate shooter. This is his fastest ever El Prez 3.69sec with 10 alphas and 2 charlies. Simply amazing his open gun sounds like a machinegun!
http://www.andersonshooting.com/Images/Video/3_69_Down2.mpg
Steve Anderson is one fast and accurate shooter. This is his fastest ever El Prez 3.69sec with 10 alphas and 2 charlies. Simply amazing his open gun sounds like a machinegun!
Dayam ! ! ! :eek:
But hey, he forgot to pick up his mag! :D
Robb Jensen
04-09-08, 07:28
From the Brian Enos Forums. I thought this was damn cool. Some 'gamers' gave back. James Gill doesn't let the fact that he's has one eye and one leg keep him from shooting/competing.
Semper Fi James Gill!
Keep on Rockin'!
Robb
http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=63393&st=0
I wanted to share a video of what happened at our local club this weekend. We have a USPSA shooter that is also a Marine that was injured in the Iraq war - his name is James Gill - He comes to many matches in the area and shoots very well - you never hear him complain that with one leg one eye he is having a hard time - NO - he shoots outstanding and has a great attitude. One of Austin's shooters and club member here at the Bullet Hole - Huston LaClair decided that this young man deserved something more than our friendship since he gave up so much to protect our freedoms! Huston got together an impressive list of Company's to donate and discount products to help this shooter shoot open division - he really wanted to shoot open but was having a hard time getting the massive funds together at one time to get started. In the end - Huston was able to gather up a New Grandmaster from STI and Dave Dawson - Tuned and ready - Shooter Connection donated a top of the line range bag with mags and the CR Speed complete rig with holster - Dillion 550 loader and all the goodies needed to reload!! 2000 Brass from Starline and 4000 Bullets from Magnus bullets and Zero! There are so many other things given you will need to watch the video! - Remember - he had no idea this was going to happen! All of the clubs in the area donated to the event and I wanted to thank all of them and the great companies for doing something that can make us all proud to shoot this sport!!! THANKS!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xp433xiXrH8
CarlosDJackal
04-09-08, 10:33
Man, that brought tears to my eyes. Thanks for sharing!! :)
holy crap that's fast. I would like to see what the target looks like
Ive taken my share of classes but have never 'competed' per se
I really should do IDPA and FDCC etc its just a long trip for me
Man, that brought tears to my eyes. Thanks for sharing!! :)
I can't tube at work....:(
Sounds really great though.
Robb Jensen
04-10-08, 04:50
holy crap that's fast. I would like to see what the target looks like
He's shot the 'El Presidente' classifier http://www.uspsa.org/classifiers/99-11.pdf at 3 of these:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/921f0475.jpg
He had 10 A hits and 2 C hits.
Open guns are expected to be faster but that's still very incredible.
My fastest times were 7.61 sec with 12 A hits (clean) with a M&P9 in Production and 7.02 sec with 10 A hits and 2 C hits with my Limited gun (.40 STI widebody).
warrior9504
05-13-08, 08:16
Glad to see there are others out there who compete to train not to win. I wear normal clothing and my everyday carry gear, and refuse to do things I think are stupid in a scenario (usually doesn't happen too often), I don't care if they dock me procedural points...because that isn't THE point!
The Archangel
05-13-08, 17:35
My FIRST 3-gun match.
I decided to go back to the basics and challenge myself by competing with a bare bones weapon in an effort to see how much of an edge gear/technology gave to the shooter. All in all, I did fairly well, but more importantly I learned some important points:
1. Slow the hell down because the targets that you don't shoot, don't count (or count against you). "Speed is the efficiency of movement...":o
2. A LOT of people don't know what cover is. Shooting over the hood of a car is NOT cover. I guess that's the difference between a game and real life. I used this game as an additional training opportunity. It slowed me down a tad bit, but I don't want to develop bad habits.
3. Run with what ya brung. My "older" eyes aren't as good as they were when I was 18. I'm bringing my Aimpoint next time. :o
4. Happy shooting! :D
http://www.mustangmods.com/ims/u/128/12194/237828.jpg
http://www.mustangmods.com/ims/u/128/12194/237791.jpg
http://www.mustangmods.com/ims/u/128/12194/237792.jpg
http://www.mustangmods.com/ims/u/128/12194/237793.jpg
http://www.mustangmods.com/ims/u/128/12194/237799.jpg
http://www.mustangmods.com/ims/u/128/12194/237800.jpg
Weapon I used.
http://www.mustangmods.com/ims/u/128/11621/237795.jpg
http://www.mustangmods.com/ims/u/128/11621/237796.jpg
http://www.mustangmods.com/ims/u/128/11621/237797.jpg
Barry in IN
05-13-08, 19:46
I decided to go back to the basics and challenge myself by competing with a bare bones weapon in an effort to see how much of an edge gear/technology gave to the shooter....
I have used my old SP1 type 20" AR before for the same reason. Recently, I used an M1 Garand. I have one set-up in .308 as a "general purpose rifle" and I like seeing how my actual "using guns" do, and how I do with them. I don't think I did any worse than usual, and maybe better in some cases...and a lot of that is because it MADE ME slow down.
2. A LOT of people don't know what cover is. Shooting over the hood of a car is NOT cover.
You ain't kiddin'! Most people don't even know what it's CALLED! I grit my teeth every time I'm at an IDPA match and a shooter says "Oh, I need to get my cover". What- You have some armor plate in your car?
Then they come back with their photgraphers vest or jacket....which they took off between stages because "it's too hot" (boo hoo).
Oh man, don't get me started.
These are good points. Great pics Archangel! And although I too like to keep-it-simple, I also concur with the Aimpoint need. Turned 50 this past Feb. and the irons have been a fuzzy blob for the past several years. My using the red dot in matches is OK though, since it stays on the gun back at my rural residence for homeland defense. I was considering going with some kind of magnifier or variable-power scope for awhile, but then I thought naw -- keep-it-simple.
......I wear normal clothing and my everyday carry gear.......I don't care if they dock me procedural points...because that isn't THE point!
I shot IPSC/USPSA back in the 90's entirely in "limited" division, which excludes optics or comps on the gun, but does allow race-type holster rigs. Although I used one for a short time I was never comfortable with it, and spent most of the period with a for-real carry rig, sometimes even from concealment just for the hell of it. Neither concealment nor cover are mandated in IPSC/USPSA, and one time an RO even gave me a hard time for drawing from under my jacket. Never did figure out what "logic" he was following there. Since I've been shooting mostly IDPA during the current decade, these issues are largely rendered moot by the fairly explicit concealment and cover requirements.
Most recently doing 3-gun, I've seen that some shooters like to wear a lot of web gear, and everyone has to wear more junk in general than when actually on the street. Carrying shells to reload your shotgun is especially bulky. Thigh holsters are popular, but I still use my everyday IWB without any disadvantage. Rifle mags often just go in my rear pants pocket, although I will sometimes break out my chest rig if feeling adventurous. Again, this rig is originally intended for a back-at-home "invasion" scenario, however unlikely hopefully that will ever happen.
......I grit my teeth every time I'm at an IDPA match and a shooter says "Oh, I need to get my cover". What- You have some armor plate in your car? Then they come back with their photgraphers vest or jacket....which they took off between stages because "it's too hot" (boo hoo).
Oh man, don't get me started.
Likewise, the "What Concealment Garment for IDPA?" web posts. I have to conclude that for these shooters it is wholly a game -- which is fine -- but that they really don't have anything they already use everyday, because they never actually carry.
Barry in IN
05-14-08, 12:12
Likewise, the "What Concealment Garment for IDPA?" web posts. I have to conclude that for these shooters it is wholly a game -- which is fine -- but that they really don't have anything they already use everyday, because they never actually carry.
It's the ones that call it one thing but do something else that concern me- The ones who say they are using it to work on defensive skills, but appearances tell a different story.
If they aren't serious about that and are doing it for fun or sport, then OK. It IS a game, no matter what.
But when they claim to be serious about using this as preparation for daily carry, yet:
-They use a Glock 17 in a Kydex belt holster in the match because it's "easier" than with the G27 and IWB they actually use (when they carry)...
-They have to hunt down something to conceal it with...
-And and are thrilled when the match director declares it's too hot and concealment won't be required (Oh, how I hate that one)...
...Then I have to wonder what it is they are trying to accomplish.
I might just outright suck, but if I'm sucking with what I carry, then I know I need work and where.
If they really are serious, and this is the pinnacle of what they do to prepare for carry in the real world...then I'm concerned for them.
I know unsolicited advice is seldom welcome, so I keep my mouth shut, bite my lip, and go on.
.......If they really are serious, and this is the pinnacle of what they do to prepare for carry in the real world...then I'm concerned for them.
I know unsolicited advice is seldom welcome, so I keep my mouth shut, bite my lip, and go on.
In one of his many writings (I forget which one), Massad Ayoob acknowledges risking the ire of the gun-owning world by his opinion that those who carry should be required to pass some kind of basic competency test.
Although I believe as fervently as anyone in the God-given right to self defense, at the same time I've witnessed some really reckless, idiotic, and potentially devastating behavior with guns. The "right" comes on the condition of also accepting the responsibility, toward which some people seem absolutely clueless.
Barry in IN
05-15-08, 09:08
In one of his many writings (I forget which one), Massad Ayoob acknowledges risking the ire of the gun-owning world by his opinion that those who carry should be required to pass some kind of basic competency test.
Although I believe as fervently as anyone in the God-given right to self defense, at the same time I've witnessed some really reckless, idiotic, and potentially devastating behavior with guns. The "right" comes on the condition of also accepting the responsibility, toward which some people seem absolutely clueless.
I will stop short (and JUST short) of fully agreeing with him. I would have screamed bloody murder at those comments at one time, but all it takes is a couple of trips to a public range or to an "Intro" class to see how it really is "out there". We have no class/instructional requirement here in IN to get a carry permit, and I do admit wondering about that at times.
Like a friend said to me at a gunshow in the late 80's as we waded through the sea of "Kill em all" T-shirt wearing goobers: Sometimes, we are our own worst enemy.
......We have no class/instructional requirement here in IN to get a carry permit, and I do admit wondering about that at times......
Virginia requires 4 hours of classroom only, no hands-on.
Virginia requires 4 hours of classroom only, no hands-on.
Yup. Many years ago when I was working at the NRA and part of the "Senior Firearms Instructors" program teaching CCW classes, I got in an argument with the head instructor over this. We had a one hour live fire portion of the class, and once I had a student who not only couldn't hit a target after an hour, but he was ridiculously unsafe and refused to pay any attention to me during our one-on-one training hour. So I refused to sign his First Steps certificate. The head guy signed it for me, and since then he's signed them all himself.
Failure2Stop
05-18-08, 05:06
Todd-
I just gotta know, how did that argument go? I mean, how did the Head Instuctor justify his position?
:confused:
The student paid for the class.
The student was present during the entire class.
The student met all of the statutory requirements for getting his permit in VA.
Refusing to sign off on their certificates would be bad for business.
Shortly thereafter, I stopped teaching there.
Good for you Todd. INTEGRITY is everything. You do "it" for them once and they own you forever.
Jack
CarlosDJackal
08-07-08, 16:15
Yup. Many years ago when I was working at the NRA and part of the "Senior Firearms Instructors" program teaching CCW classes, I got in an argument with the head instructor over this. We had a one hour live fire portion of the class, and once I had a student who not only couldn't hit a target after an hour, but he was ridiculously unsafe and refused to pay any attention to me during our one-on-one training hour. So I refused to sign his First Steps certificate. The head guy signed it for me, and since then he's signed them all himself.
I can relate with you here. I refuse to sign any certificates except for the students I have personally taught and judged to be "worthy". I've also threatened to walk out of a Home Firearms Safety Class unless they kicked out this old lady who refused to listen to any instructions and kept sweeping the whole class with her revolver that she insisted was empty (even though she could not open up the cylinder to clear it). I even offered to give her a "refund" out of my own pocket.
The Head FI took her under his responsibility and did a one-on-one range session with her away from the rest of the class. he said that she did not want her certificate (thank God!!) and that she just wanted to learn how to shoot a gun.
In my club, we've had occasion to refuse to give someone their certificate until they came back for further training and until they proved that they can hit their intended target.
I wrote and was offering an Introduction to the IDPA class at my club until this year. I have since refused to do so because some people were attending who have never had ANY shooting experience of a class under their belt. I had a PhD tell me she signed up because it said "Introduction". I refused her enrollment when she could not show me that she can handle any of her handguns safely. I have also asked individuals to not come back for the range portion of th class for safety reasons.
Robb Jensen
05-12-09, 07:36
We do it because it's fun. Here's some vids of me shooting on Sunday, I placed 8th of 29 in Limited, not too bad since I hadn't shot my Limited gun in about 4 months and only put 50 rounds though it on Saturday night before the match.
This will be my last match for about 5 weeks since I just had carpal tunnel release surgery on my left hand yesterday.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeGuVG6m-44
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPPcmxHvxFo
We do it because it's fun. Here's some vids of me shooting on Sunday, I placed 8th of 29 in Limited, not too bad since I hadn't shot my Limited gun in about 4 months and only put 50 rounds though it on Saturday night before the match.
This will be my last match for about 5 weeks since I just had carpal tunnel release surgery on my left hand yesterday.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeGuVG6m-44
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPPcmxHvxFo
isnt it funny what we call fun......
Fun...the airport thing or long drives.
Fun…like stand in the rain for hours. Pick up dropped mags from mud holes…… Cuss ourselves for missing such a easy shot or brain farting some procedure.
Fun…like picking up casings, cleaning guns, reloading….practicing when we don't feel like it.
Ha…. I always come back for more……..
We do it because it's fun. Here's some vids of me shooting on Sunday.........
Good shootin' Robb. Looks like F-burg is up to their usual standard of excellence.
......This will be my last match for about 5 weeks since I just had carpal tunnel release surgery on my left hand yesterday.
Bummer.......good luck on that bro. Let us know how it works out. I should probably have mine looked to too -- right wrist is especially bad.
Robb Jensen
06-28-09, 19:13
The hand is doing well but I'm waiting for late July before shooting centerfire pistols.
I just saw this on the BrianEnos forums and it made me laugh! :D
http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=25772
http://9x19mm.com/toddg/images/tempm4c.jpg
Yeah, those little blue squares with white question marks always make me laugh, too!
Glad to hear your hand is healing up, man. July is just around the corner ...
Robb Jensen
06-29-09, 06:23
Michelle at PhotoMotionPhotography.com took the pic.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/USPSA.jpg
Failure2Stop
06-29-09, 08:01
:D
That's great!
http://9x19mm.com/toddg/images/ispc.jpg
Michelle at PhotoMotionPhotography.com took the pic.
Great one Robb. I'm sharing this one with family (they wonder what we do out there).
Alot of people are scared to even do that. Some are humbled so bad that they won't ever try again.
I haven't seen this in GA. Everybody is so laid back, except the AMU, that new shooters are made to feel welcome. Everyone has a learning curve. Shooters are generally cool and everyone shares a common interest.
If individuals don't have the commitment to improve their shooting then....being humbled makes one realize how much there is left to learn. Go dry-fire, practice, and implement a consistent training regimen that challenges your skill set.
We do it because it's fun........
To me, that's the bottom line. Everything else is simply the means to that end.
Robb Jensen
08-17-09, 07:54
To me, that's the bottom line. Everything else is simply the means to that end.
YEP!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/competition%20pics/robb2-8.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/competition%20pics/robb3-8.jpg
IndianaBoy
09-16-10, 22:13
I find USPSA more fun than IDPA and 3gun/multi-gun even more fun than USPSA.
This is my feeling as well.
Funny I came across this today, I am getting ready to go to my first 2 gun in about 45 min. Is it normal to be nervous?
Funny I came across this today, I am getting ready to go to my first 2 gun in about 45 min. Is it normal to be nervous?
Of course, but you will be fine. listen to the RO/SO and you will do fine. Take pointers/suggestions given to you by more experienced shooters and you will come along just fine. Remember everyone started the same way you are, by taking a chance and jumping in head first.
smoothdraw
12-04-10, 13:45
I see IDPA / IPSC / Multigun as shooting training and to continue my interest in shooting sports. Every year i try to have at least 1 big training or 2 for tactical training if i can get kitchen pass with the queen of my life. Yeah i develop training scars but i mix them up so that those training scars becomes more vivid and makes you decide to adjust and correct.
Any trigger time for me is better than typing in front of a computer.
My life would just be NO FUN without USPSA or Multigun!
Now I spend every Friday with my son who wants to inherit a bunch of my guns BEFORE I die!
He sneeks around the house looking for my ammo stashes too!
Six Feet Under
04-22-11, 17:50
Shot my first competition in October 2010, an FDCC match (Florida Defensive Carbine Club, like IDPA with rifles).
I had a blast and placed 30th out of 139 total shooters. I would have gotten 20th place had I not shot a hostage 3x in the head on the first stage due to having the jitters, and missed a target on the last stage due to a little bit of confusion as to whether or not I had already shot it. Next time I'll make sure and put extra holes into whatever ones I'm not sure about!
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4076/5440277010_0b6fea7ee1_b.jpg
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5020/5439673347_6a29151755_b.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4102/5440277554_8e5c21ea08_b.jpg
Planning on shooting both CFDCC and FDCC matches in June, I have the ammo to have shot every match this year so far but I don't have any extra money to replace said ammo, so I'm not going to use it. :) All of my extra money is going towards the gym and eating clean as of late.
theblackknight
07-20-12, 14:19
Deadeye Steve post this elsewhere and I think it really goes along with a lot of Rob's posts.
"Should you visit most swimming locations you will notice that they have the pool, diving area, lap lane and the wading/kiddies pool.
The swimming area is where the adults are playing. This is like the public range. They can actually get themselves into trouble if they go too deep. They splash around a bit, dive under the water, take a few strokes, and tickle their girl-friend. Like the 7 yard line they are doing some actual shooting, but not much, very controlled, very safe. Not very fast, not very well, and with no real skill evident.
The deep-end with the diving boards is like a private bay on a range. For you unfamiliar- some ranges will rent you a bay for so-many dollars for a few hours and you and your buddies can go shoot a bit more freestyle. It’s for a bit of the show-offs. They don’t swim far. They don’t dive well. Just like the shooters on the private bay don’t have any real talent either. But they get to ratta-tat-tat, do a reload if they like, shoot a bit on the move if they think to do so.
The lap lane is for the actual swimmers; the water athletes. Ranges have their lap lanes. They are the practice sessions for the club members, the small group of (or individual shooters) who make use of the private bays for real practice. They stretch their limits, set up multiple targets, paper and steel, walls, and more to really test out their guns, gear and limits. This group has it's long-range riflemen and it's bulls-eye shooters, it's PPC, IDPA, USPSA/IPSC, it's Steel Challenge. They are the 1500m and 200m freestyle. They are the medley swingers and breast-strokers.
Before the pool opens there might be some lessons being taught. Persons smart enough to know that the water is dangerous enroll themselves or their children in the classes. They learn to get their face wet, do the superman glide. Practice arm motions on the side of the pool until they “get it” and then practice some actual swimming. Some just learn to hold the gun, fire a shot that groups 6” at 7 yards, they can unload and reload. They might remember how to conduct some form of immediate action to correct a malfunction. Interested parties might take additional classes, learn different swimming strokes, the flip turn and the rules of the swimming competition.
Once in a while the pool get’s closed to the public for the swimming meets. Just like shooting matches when the real gunners show up in mass. The rules are in place. The times are kept, and violations are met with disqualifications. Skill and practice and conditioning is self-evident. Nobody is crying about fast suit or shaved legs. Everyone is seeking to actually win. If you finish last, no one wants to hear you snivel about, "that ain't how it's done in water ballet." This ain't water ballet. You showed up to a swim meet. Shut up and swim. If you can't swim or remember the order of the individual medley, that's too bad, guess you really aint' a swimmer.
Some with gravitate towards diving sports, maybe water ballet. While the diver knows how to get through the water, he’s no swimmer. He looks great twisting and turning in the air and doing everything leading up to being in the water. This is the tactical ninja. Nice physique can swim a bit, but his skill lays elsewhere. He can tell you everything about the approach, the leap, and the bounce. He can tell you how the point your toes, how to do the twist or the flip. But, he is out of his element when he hits the water. He can swim a short distance and make it look good for that short distance because he does it enough; don’t ask him to do a 400 IM, though. The water ballet is interesting. Takes strength, the ability to swim but it’s all about coordination with others. These are a lot like the SWAT guys. They line up on the edge of the pool, enter in concert with each other, swim around sneak under water and come up at the same time and make flashy motions with their arms wile treading water. It’s like swimming, but ain’t. Everyone looks good in the same swimsuit and doing the same movements… just don’t ask them to spring a 100m butterfly… they can probably get it done. They just can't do it as well as the guy who actually puts in the laps.
Cross train swimmer with a diver and a water ballet and you have a hell of athlete. But, one skill will probably suffer at expense to another.
The diver has skill, and if you can’t do it, you can’t do it. Just try to do the water-ballet, most of ya will cramp in a couple minutes. It takes dedication and training to be a good diver or be select for the water ballet team. While the skills are associated with swimming- it’s not swimming.
The whole time- the kiddie pool has been sitting over there. The mother’s are over there supervising the kids who can’t swim; they are hooting and hollering, jumping off the 6” lip into the 4” water and splashing water up in the air. This is the internet. Where the kids play and moderators moderate. Sometimes a swimmer visits the kids in the wading pool. The kids in the wading pool can see the real swimmers over there and think that they are doing the same thing when they lay in the few inches of water and pull themselves along the bottom. Maybe an adult takes them to the shallowest end of the pool and lets them walk down the steps until the water is at their chin or jump off the edge to mommy’s waiting arms. But, they are more comfortable in the kiddie pool where they don’t actually have to swim.
Should you ever fall out of the boat in rough water, if the canoe every sinks. Having played in the wading pool won't save your ass. Having a few lessons won't carry you very far. Your diving is irrelevant and so is your water ballet. Having jumped off the 3m board on Saturdays is little consolation as you sink to the bottom. It's the lap swimming that is going to get you to the bank. Having shot some matches is inoculation against panic as the cold water seeps in. When you realize it's do or die time, the lap swimmer kicks off his shoes, puts his face in the water and starts stroking for shore- he already knows what to do and how to do. And, more importantly, that he can."
Jesse Tischauser
07-23-12, 09:04
We have one of those at a local club. He wears "tactical" polos, "tactical" vests and probably even "tactical" socks and continously advises me which mags to run in my 1911. That's always confused me since he doesn't even own a 1911.
Back on topic though, being able to see improvement in my shooting is the sweetest benefit of competetion. Outshooting "tactical guy" is fun too! ;)
Well said! I have about as much need for anything tactical as I do for my third nipple but I can perform weapon manipulations faster than just about anyone that uses their guns to save lives. Why not utilize competitions as a FUN way to become more proficient with a tool that might save your life one day?
theblackknight
10-07-12, 18:35
Well said! I have about as much need for anything tactical as I do for my third nipple but I can perform weapon manipulations faster than just about anyone that uses their guns to save lives. Why not utilize competitions as a FUN way to become more proficient with a tool that might save your life one day?
Because that means putting aside your ego,past accomplishments, your ribbon stack etc etc do compete in a largly objective setting means finding out where you really stand against all these "non tactical" engineers,farmers, accountants, and professional shooters. Timers, target zones and yard/fault line don't lie, but tactical shooters do and will hide behind the gear, canival type stanges"not realiztik yo!", the whole"breeds bad habits that will get you killed in the streets" and any other mental barriers they can use to insulate them from the truth that their skills might be mediocre at best.
The good trainers, and shooters out there simply don't hide behind their resume,they post videos on youtube of their standards,or shooting others standards, or actual match results.
Littlelebowski
10-08-12, 07:55
Because that means putting aside your ego,past accomplishments, your ribbon stack etc etc do compete in a largly objective setting means finding out where you really stand against all these "non tactical" engineers,farmers, accountants, and professional shooters. Timers, target zones and yard/fault line don't lie, but tactical shooters do and will hide behind the gear, canival type stanges"not realiztik yo!", the whole"breeds bad habits that will get you killed in the streets" and any other mental barriers they can use to insulate them from the truth that their skills might be mediocre at best.
The good trainers, and shooters out there simply don't hide behind their resume,they post videos on youtube of their standards,or shooting others standards, or actual match results.
No offense dude, but when are you going to post some videos, scores, and drill times? I hear you complain a lot and I empathize with a lot of your complaints though I don't agree with the tone. How about practicing what you preach? How about posting something positive for once?
Alaskapopo
10-10-12, 02:22
My FIRST 3-gun match.
2. A LOT of people don't know what cover is. Shooting over the hood of a car is NOT cover. I guess that's the difference between a game and real life. I used this game as an additional training opportunity. It slowed me down a tad bit, but I don't want to develop bad habits.
]
A match is not the time to use tactics. You will not win a match against a timer using good tactics so don't try. Go and have fun and shoot the match for what it is. Its a chance to see how well you can shoot fast and accurately. As for the cover comment there are times in real life where you will lay across the hood of your car to take a shot not so much to use the car for cover but rather to use it as a rest. It dependson the situation. Are you are responding officer who see the threat and he is about to hurt someone else and you need to get a accurate shot off now. Then use what ever rest you can quickly. If your using the car for cover you need to be hunkered down behind the axels/engine block area shooting around or under the car. Not as accurate or as fast but it has its applicaitons. There is no one answer for every situation.
Pat
theblackknight
10-10-12, 11:03
No offense dude, but when are you going to post some videos, scores, and drill times? I hear you complain a lot and I empathize with a lot of your complaints though I don't agree with the tone. How about practicing what you preach? How about posting something positive for once? The tone is purely self hate, bc I used to be one of those guys.
6 months cold with rifle, mag in pocket, a couple dry runs before. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2Cwrhq8-4c&feature=youtube_gdata_player
I also completely bombed the NC section match this weekend. Would have shot around 80% of winner, but I decided to hit 3 no shoots and missed 2 targets during a walk thru. :D
sent from mah gun,using my sights
Littlelebowski
10-10-12, 12:32
Good response, TBK. Keep up the self improvement. I too, am trying to compete more but am limited on matches due to time so I only catch local ones.
I've only ever shot in local matches. I can tell improvement happens when I lay down to fire my military qualifications and I start to think, "this should definitely be more realistic." Fortunately, I now know how bad I suck at real life weapons usage, and not just laying in the prone shooting a silhouette.
theblackknight
03-16-13, 21:52
Just a shooting rant here: All mental stuff aside, I have met many people in the defensive shooting realm who I think over analyze tactics (mostly bad shooters who i think are trying to make up for their shooting). Now I'm not GI Joe but I have studied the details of many gunfights and I believe (again all mental stuff aside.....which is THEE most important) that most of the time the victor was the guy who was just faster, more accurate and flat out better with a gun. Now don't get me wrong I am all about tactics and I've got some back ground in them. I just think because of the fact they are much less black and white (where good shooting is not) many people decide to focus too much on them and in turn less on being more skillful with their weapon. -Bob Vogel
There is a large group of people who hold this type of belief. You will find plenty of LEO's and civilians who have been told competition is bad and believe it. Some cite the lack of tactics and others the specialized equipment. The underlying thing that I have seen is that these folks see themselves as "serious" people and competition shooters as "gamers" who are not serious. No matter how good the competition shooter is he cannot be seen as "serious" because he plays a game; he must be discounted and rejected. The most vocal of this crowd is the trainer who wants to teach them. This group is much larger than all the competitive shooters combined so there is a lot of MONEY to be made catering to them. That is why the debate rages on and the belief that competition is bad is promoted and protected. Just follow the money to find a school near you to be taught the evils of comp! -Keith Garcia
Jesse Tischauser
03-17-13, 07:16
Nice!
Mind if I use your post elsewhere?
theblackknight
03-17-13, 15:44
They arnt mine dude, I just connected the dots. I posted it on doodie too.
BTW, how many forums you on:D? Stag should buy you a nice computer chair for all the seat time you get:lol:
Jesse Tischauser
03-17-13, 17:55
They arnt mine dude, I just connected the dots. I posted it on doodie too.
BTW, how many forums you on:D? Stag should buy you a nice computer chair for all the seat time you get:lol:
I am in every gun forum, literally. If somebody's asking questions about 3 gun I get notification. Probably 100 different ones by now.
I have several Stag chairs but I could use a Winchester, Benelli, and a federal chair next. :)
theblackknight
04-11-13, 21:11
Bobby K, Wes, I had a few paragraphs written to counter the arguments of this Bob Harvey idiot, but my computer acts up when I’m on Facebook, and I lost it. I won’t try to type it all again, but I will say a few things. As you both know, I spent 11 years in 1st Ranger Battalion, deploying to combat 8 times. I am also an active 3 Gun and USPSA competitor. Unless you are assigned to CAG or SEAL Team 6, the marksmanship training you receive while in the military is fairly basic, even within the Ranger Battalions. Once you are there for a few training cycles, most peoples’ skills plateau. Most of your limited range time ends up getting dedicated towards teaching the newer guys the basics. If you want to continue to improve your skills, it’s on you. Getting involved with USPSA or 3 Gun is one of the best ways to fine-tune many skills that you never get to test while on the firing line during military or “tactical” training. Not everything in competition applies to combat, but most does. Rapidly presenting the weapon system, shooting on the move, entering/leaving positions (barricades/cover), addressing various target exposures, and rapid target transitions are all skills that apply directly to real-life scenarios. During most military or tactical training, you have a firing line full of shooters, and you have one target to address. If some tactical trainer suggests staying away from any type of competition, he is probably very narrow-minded. He probably has about a dozen drills he demonstrates every class, and has been doing them for years. His skill-set is likely very limited, and he would make an ass of himself if taken out of his “comfort zone.” People like Bob love to preach about how many years they have been a tactical trainer, and how they know exactly how to survive gunfights. Yet, most of them have never been in a gunfight, or any situation that actually puts their skills to the test. I haven’t been in dozens of gunfights, but have been in a few, and it was me versus a few immediate threats. I feel the skills I gained on my own through my competition experience helped me engage those threats very rapidly and effectively, and I don’t feel I would’ve been as rapid and efficient if I had been relying on only military training and a few bad classes taught by nobodies like Bob. I strongly suggest routinely testing and fine-tuning your skills through competition. The best trainers are the ones that have real-life AND competition experience. The worst trainers are the ones who do nothing but preach about “real gunfights.”
Dustin Rademacher,stolen from a epic FB troll session
theblackknight
04-14-13, 10:16
Here’s a little something to get you inspired this Saturday morning! Remember that performance is performance, whether you are at the square range or the two way range. Don’t hide under the mantle of being “tactical” and underperforming because technical skills are “for gamers.” Train hard and win.
http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=2654
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