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R1pper
10-12-07, 17:00
Has any one actually used this ammo, The Winchester Ranger 5.56 frangible? I want to load like 5 mags with this ammo for LEO use (we have to buy our own patrol rifles). But I have not heard anything on what is better the TAP or the Ranger. Also I have heard that you need at least such and such of a twist to shoot a low grain frangible ammo, I have a 1x9.

Gunfighter13
10-12-07, 19:21
I did not like the Ranger frangible. Shot 1000 rounds of the stuff. Did not penetrate window glass or light barriers. I still prefer the RA223R Soft tip 55 gr or the TAP 75gr HP. They are the most used by LEO agencies also.

signal4l
12-03-07, 01:06
My Pd uses this ammo on our indoor range. I have seen it keyhole at 5 yards out of an M16-A1. Stick with at least a 1/9 twist and you will be fine. Probably not a good choice for duty ammo.

WS6
12-03-07, 02:45
I belive this is range ammo and will not frag in gelatin or people from what I have seen of tests done with frangible ammunition of this variety.

Failure2Stop
12-03-07, 08:25
Frangible=range use only for steel/shoot-houses.

ST911
12-03-07, 09:38
Has any one actually used this ammo, The Winchester Ranger 5.56 frangible? I want to load like 5 mags with this ammo for LEO use (we have to buy our own patrol rifles). But I have not heard anything on what is better the TAP or the Ranger. Also I have heard that you need at least such and such of a twist to shoot a low grain frangible ammo, I have a 1x9.

Outside of some specialty aps and locations, frangible is not a suitable duty load. (If you're in those venues, you're already issued something much better anyway.)

I've shot a bunch of frangible. All were best out of the 1/7s. 1/9s were okay.

There's copious amounts of data on duty loads out there, and previously posted here. Do you have to provide your own ammo, too?

markm
12-03-07, 12:19
The federal NT (frangible rounds) are 50 grainers. I've heard reports of nasty key holes from 1/9 barrels. The bullet itself is about as long as a M856 tracer since there's no lead in it.

WS6
12-03-07, 20:15
Outside of some specialty aps and locations, frangible is not a suitable duty load. (If you're in those venues, you're already issued something much better anyway.)

I've shot a bunch of frangible. All were best out of the 1/7s. 1/9s were okay.

There's copious amounts of data on duty loads out there, and previously posted here. Do you have to provide your own ammo, too?


FWIW, Evan Smith likes the 40gr varmint loads for open-air shots (i.e. no cars involved).

C4IGrant
12-03-07, 21:22
I did not like the Ranger frangible. Shot 1000 rounds of the stuff. Did not penetrate window glass or light barriers. I still prefer the RA223R Soft tip 55 gr or the TAP 75gr HP. They are the most used by LEO agencies also.


Agree. Pass on the frang stuff. 75gr TAP or 77gr MK's is really the best way to go.



C4

ST911
12-04-07, 00:18
FWIW, Evan Smith likes the 40gr varmint loads for open-air shots (i.e. no cars involved).

Sorry, that name doesn't ring a bell.

markm
12-04-07, 07:45
I did not like the Ranger frangible. Shot 1000 rounds of the stuff. Did not penetrate window glass or light barriers.



I did some casual testing of the Federal NT frangibles, and was quite suprised at the performance.

(I'm in complete agreement that frangible is not a good choice for Defensive purposes)

Anyway, the Federals will nearly penetrate 1/4" mild steel targets that I use for pistol shooting. They will also easily penetrate 1/2" plywood. The last barrier I shot was a 2X4 in front of my rifle gong. The NTs easily penetrated the wood and still impacted the gong.

If I get a chance, I'll shoot some thru some glass next time I'm out at the range and see if I still get a round hole in a paper target behind the glass.

Street Survival
01-07-08, 11:19
Markm, let us know how you make out. It should be interesting.

markm
01-07-08, 11:27
Crap! I forgot about this. I generally keep a box of frangible in my tote. I just need to remember to do this!

CLHC
06-24-08, 15:42
I did some casual testing of the Federal NT frangibles, and was quite suprised at the performance.

(I'm in complete agreement that frangible is not a good choice for Defensive purposes)

Anyway, the Federals will nearly penetrate 1/4" mild steel targets that I use for pistol shooting. They will also easily penetrate 1/2" plywood. The last barrier I shot was a 2X4 in front of my rifle gong. The NTs easily penetrated the wood and still impacted the gong.

If I get a chance, I'll shoot some thru some glass next time I'm out at the range and see if I still get a round hole in a paper target behind the glass.
And the verdict? :p

markm
06-24-08, 16:08
And the verdict? :p

Damn it! :eek:

I still haven't done this. I need to get a decent piece of glass or two.

CLHC
06-24-08, 22:49
Damn it! :eek:

I still haven't done this. I need to get a decent piece of glass or two.
Maybe from a wrecking yard? Looking forward to seeing pictures of the results when you do.

Oscar 319
06-25-08, 00:14
In my opinion, the best Law Enforcement .233/5.56 round is the Federal 62 grn Tactical Bonded.

http://le.atk.com/general/federalproducts/rifle/tacticalbonded.aspx

markm
06-25-08, 08:25
Maybe from a wrecking yard? Looking forward to seeing pictures of the results when you do.

Hmmm.. I do have some Federal Bonded ammo that I won in a shoot out. I could turn this into a full blown research project. :)

I wonder if the glass guy will let you keep your old windsheild. :confused: My pickup has about a dozen spider chips in it. I'm due for new glass.

markm
07-04-08, 15:08
Here's some of the frangible research!

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=16526

Damascus
07-08-08, 14:52
In my opinion, the best Law Enforcement .233/5.56 round is the Federal 62 grn Tactical Bonded.

http://le.atk.com/general/federalproducts/rifle/tacticalbonded.aspx

I just checked that website, and when you go to the "Speer" tab, this page (http://le.atk.com/general/speerproducts/rifle/default.aspx), and choose to compare both 64 gr. rounds, P/N#24448 and 24456, the accompanying ballistics chart seems weird... this chart claims that both rounds use the same GD bullet, but one is at 3000 fps, and the other 3050.. but according to the chart, at muzzle, obviously, the 3050 load has more velocity and energy, but at 400 - 500, the slower 3000 fps load has more velocity/energy??? :confused: If both loads are the same bullet, how can this be possible?

But, my main question here is: Does anyone know where you can buy these .224" Gold Dot bullets for reloading?

TDrift
07-16-08, 09:15
In my opinion, the best Law Enforcement .233/5.56 round is the Federal 62 grn Tactical Bonded.

Really? Then why many agencies out there use Winchester Ranger Power Point 64 grains?

WS6
07-16-08, 10:05
Really? Then why many agencies out there use Winchester Ranger Power Point 64 grains?

Because they do not cost $1 a round for the manufacturer to produce.

markm
07-16-08, 12:10
Really? Then why many agencies out there use Winchester Ranger Power Point 64 grains?

A lot of agencies also buy/issue DPMS rifles to their officers, and we know that's not a good thing!! :eek:

A lesson I learned long ago is.. Don't base your gear/ammo selection on what the cops have.

REM
07-16-08, 23:15
Really? Then why many agencies out there use Winchester Ranger Power Point 64 grains?

Because it is one of the only .223 loads available via the LE distribution chain at the current time. My agency can buy it cheaper than 55 gr. ball right now.

Oscar 319
07-17-08, 00:52
Really? Then why many agencies out there use Winchester Ranger Power Point 64 grains?

Why do many agencies issue 55 grn FMJ?

Why did the NYPD only issue 115 FMJ's with their 9mm's for many years?

I am just a satisfied end user of a product I have great confidence in. That confidence comes from its performance in OIS's and from many experts who agree that the Federal Bonded as about as good as it gets for a LE round.

From a DocGKR post;

Originally Posted by DocGKR

Acceptable performing 5.56 mm/.223 ammunition choices for law enforcement duty in 1 in 9" or faster twist barrels are noted below:

Black Hills 60 gr JSP
Winchester M-855 62 gr FMJ (RA556M855)
Federal 62 gr Tac JSP (LE223T3)
Winchester 64 gr JSP (Q3246)
Black Hills 68 gr JHP
Federal 69 gr JHP (223GM)
Winchester 69 gr JHP (S223M)
Black Hills 73 gr JHP
Black Hills 75 gr JHP
Hornady 75 gr TAP (80265)

The ONLY .223 load we shot which offered adequate penetration after shooting through automobile windshields was the Federal 62 gr Tactical (LE223T3). The trade off is that the Federal Tactical does not fragment, maintains the deepest penetration of any .223 bullet after penetrating walls, and as a result, may not be the best choice for entry or urban settings. (The older Federal 55 gr Tactical (LE223T1) for 1/12 twist weapons offers the same type of deep penetration and performance against automobile windows). The other .223 loads listed above which offer good performance for entry or other anti-personnel applications had insufficient penetration and retained mass after shooting through the car windows.

Damascus
07-17-08, 14:30
Does anyone know if the .224" 64gr. Gold Dot rifle bullets are for sale for reloading? Or is it only for the Federal line of loaded cartridges?
I'd love to try this round, but I don't waste money on factory ammo (unless I need brass and can't order it)... That would make a good medium game round.