View Full Version : Civilian IR laser ownership - logistic support
For those of you civvies who own DBALs, PEQs etc. - what are your service/repair options if your IR laser goes down? I know that LDI will not service privately owned IR devices, and I am sure Insight Tech won't do either. I've been thinking of NV for a long time, and this issue is my major roadblock.
P.S. I am aware of LDI's I2 civilian-friendly option; there are a couple of things that make me not want it.
For those of you civvies who own DBALs, PEQs etc. - what are your service/repair options if your IR laser goes down? I know that LDI will not service privately owned IR devices, and I am sure Insight Tech won't do either. I've been thinking of NV for a long time, and this issue is my major roadblock.
P.S. I am aware of LDI's I2 civilian-friendly option; there are a couple of things that make me not want it.
To be honest, you are typically screwed (especially if you own an LDI product). About your only option is to have an LE agency send it in for you and HOPE that they will send it back to them. Things might have changed, but from my experience, they will track that laser and then start to ask questions to the LE agency (as they did not buy it from them). Then the fun begins.
C4
Yeah, no changes. If one manages to procure a Class IIIB-capable piece of serialized gear, one is generally boned in terms of servicing.
All the loopholes one can squeeze through to get the thing can be pretty easily pinched shut by the folks with a valid worry about losing gov't contracts over real or perceived non-comliance with law/policy regarding such things, so they'll opt on the side of caution if there's even a hint of a question about legal ownership.
Iraq Ninja
05-27-11, 10:58
The PEQ 15 has an excellent track record overseas, considering the abuse and heat they take. It is like the aimpoint of IR lasers. I consider it a disposable item.
I am more concerned about any laser that may fail when I need it. That is why I put my trust in the 15, though others may be technically better.
I kind of thought that much, but, seeing how people are spending mid-four digit numbers on IR/NV, I was wondering if there were third party repair options.
bad timing
06-01-11, 01:10
P.S. I am aware of LDI's I2 civilian-friendly option; there are a couple of things that make me not want it.
What are the things that make you not want it?
Note to self - don't post when you 1st wake up.
What are the things that make you not want it?
1. Multiple reports that it washes out with IR illumination. I don't need long distance but I want it to work up close well.
I presume this could be worked out by finding appropriate power IR illuminator, but I've not seen reports yet.
2. Regular DBAL has visible and IR lasers slaved off each other - you zero one, another gets zeroed too. Things like getting initial zero, confirming it, re-zeroing when moving unit from one rifle to another can be done in daylight. For somebody who has unlimited options of shooting in no-light this [separate zeroing for vis and IR] shouldn't be a problem. I don't have easy access to no-light range and really want to be able to zero mine in daytime off of visible laser.
bad timing
06-02-11, 00:10
Understood. Good reasons. Thank you.
I am using a Laser Devices DBAL I2 (Civ Class I IR) unit on my AR with a PVS-14. I use a Surefire M952V as an IR illuminator and white light source. I have one of the initial releases, the newer ones are supposedly good out to distances past 100 yards. 100 yard shots are difficult as it is, shooting steel offhand under NODs.
I can tell you from my personal experience, the IR laser pointer does not get washed out with either the IR light nor white light of the M952V. I have done indoor testing and also night live fire with it out to 100 yards. You're not going to get the Death Star laser beam coming out of it but the dot was easy for me to pick up in my PVS-14.
My laser and IR pointer is zero'd out to 100 yards. I was initially put back the slaved zero issue, but once it's set, it's a non issue to me. Ideally you want to zero your laser in low-light conditions as even the green visible laser is difficult to see at 100 yards in daylight.
For me the cost of the Class I IR laser and the ability to have it warrantied outweigh the higher cost of, usually a used Class III IR unit, and the chance of it turning into an expensive paperweight. Given the high cost of most Gen III night vision and night vision accessories, such as mounts, the civilian lasers from LDI are a bargain.
This is a great video of it in use:
http://www.youtube.com/user/RetreatHell#p/u/9/4s8UiVb7-44
Definitely past 100yd.
This is very recent; the power output of the IR aim laser on the new Class 1 DBALs has been ramped up from .07mW to .65mW.
For this sort of device, that's a biiiig jump, and will easily put the IR pointer efficacy well past the 125-150m that one is able to detect a man-sized target under ideal conditions with a new/well-maintained GenIII I-square NVG (ideal being defined as half-moon, no clouds, no point-source artificial light pollution) in the hands of a competent user (this is difficult to define; I've lost count of how many people manage to completely forget a set of -14s has a diopter focus and a gain control...).
That thing just went from "pretty good" to "really damned capable" within the niche it's meant to fill. Affordable (relatively), works at realistic distances, and has a company that backs the product.
Stuff like this, and the increased output of the newer Class 1 IR lasers, makes it less than worthwhile, in most cases, for civilians to purchase gray market PEQ's. At least in my mind.
I'm curious to see the performance of the Lasermax unit. I doubt it's the most durable product but the slim profile and light weight makes it seem like it might be a winner. If I'm not getting the illuminator and the power out of a DBAL or PEQ-15, I see no need to go with a neutered version just for looks and a green laser.
The ability to have a C1 repaired is a nice option as opposed to having CID knock on your door after you've sent your serialized laser in for a check-up.
iwouldntknow
06-26-11, 08:34
Stuff like this, and the increased output of the newer Class 1 IR lasers, makes it less than worthwhile, in most cases, for civilians to purchase gray market PEQ's. At least in my mind.
I'm curious to see the performance of the Lasermax unit. I doubt it's the most durable product but the slim profile and light weight makes it seem like it might be a winner. If I'm not getting the illuminator and the power out of a DBAL or PEQ-15, I see no need to go with a neutered version just for looks and a green laser.
The ability to have a C1 repaired is a nice option as opposed to having CID knock on your door after you've sent your serialized laser in for a check-up.
I must have gotten one of the newer DBAL-I2s. I have been able to see mine in excess of 300 yards on a moonless night. Mine is one from the fourth batch TNVC got in. I am going to get a UNI-IR, but haven't yet. Personally, if the funds were even close to available, I'd get the DBAL-I2 for a rifle. Its more durable and you can use the green laser as a back up sight or in smoke, fog, etc or as a pointer/signaller.
I ordered one from TNVC on the 17th, hope to see if it's ther new vs. old this week. I had the ability to purchase a "gray" one but declioned for the reasons given above.
I must have gotten one of the newer DBAL-I2s. I have been able to see mine in excess of 300 yards on a moonless night. Mine is one from the fourth batch TNVC got in. I am going to get a UNI-IR, but haven't yet. Personally, if the funds were even close to available, I'd get the DBAL-I2 for a rifle. Its more durable and you can use the green laser as a back up sight or in smoke, fog, etc or as a pointer/signaller.
Me too. I kept hearing all this 75-80 yards max stuff and I can see both my ITAL & UNIMAX off trees 500 yards away. One is slightly fainter than the other, but it is visible.
2. Regular DBAL has visible and IR lasers slaved off each other - you zero one, another gets zeroed too. Things like getting initial zero, confirming it, re-zeroing when moving unit from one rifle to another can be done in daylight. For somebody who has unlimited options of shooting in no-light this [separate zeroing for vis and IR] shouldn't be a problem. I don't have easy access to no-light range and really want to be able to zero mine in daytime off of visible laser.
I figured out a trick that may help you.
I sighted my scope in at the range in the day time. Then mounted an IR laser to the same spot in low light. Now since this wasn't at 100 yards and the laser is mounted closer to the barrel......it is not 100% dead on, but for me it is close enough.
If I had a 100 yard spot that was low light....
I figured out a trick that may help you.
I sighted my scope in at the range in the day time. Then mounted an IR laser to the same spot in low light. Now since this wasn't at 100 yards and the laser is mounted closer to the barrel......it is not 100% dead on, but for me it is close enough.
If I had a 100 yard spot that was low light....
+1
I have used this method and it works fine. Sight the scope to the range you want the IR and you will be fine. For my hog gun, my IR is sighted to about 75 yards and I use subsonic 220s. The day scope is sighted for a more conventional 50/200 zero using the supersonic ammo.
yellowcarbon
10-26-11, 13:56
Some models of the DBAL I2 IR laser have a problem with discharging batteries. I have a higher powered one with a 7/11 manufacture date that kills batteries in about 2 weeks even on the off position. I really like the laser, but am not super pleased with the lack of communication from Laser Devices. I am still waiting on a return authorization number.
Some models of the DBAL I2 IR laser have a problem with discharging batteries. I have a higher powered one with a 7/11 manufacture date that kills batteries in about 2 weeks even on the off position. I really like the laser, but am not super pleased with the lack of communication from Laser Devices. I am still waiting on a return authorization number.
This is a limited issue with select circuit boards. I have heard all new units coming out are good to go. Sorry to hear you are having issues but from what I have read LDI has been responsive to those having issues.
My initial purchase would drain the batteries in 2 days. I got an RMA and sent it back. They replaced the whole unit and it seems the drainage issue is resolved. FWIW it took about 3 weeks to get back to my porch and the CS was great.
Reagans Rascals
10-27-11, 06:22
Definitely past 100yd.
This is very recent; the power output of the IR aim laser on the new Class 1 DBALs has been ramped up from .07mW to .65mW.
For this sort of device, that's a biiiig jump, and will easily put the IR pointer efficacy well past the 125-150m that one is able to detect a man-sized target under ideal conditions with a new/well-maintained GenIII I-square NVG (ideal being defined as half-moon, no clouds, no point-source artificial light pollution) in the hands of a competent user (this is difficult to define; I've lost count of how many people manage to completely forget a set of -14s has a diopter focus and a gain control...).
That thing just went from "pretty good" to "really damned capable" within the niche it's meant to fill. Affordable (relatively), works at realistic distances, and has a company that backs the product.
Is the full beam of the newer 0.7mW unit visible under nvg's? Considering the PEQ-15 has an IR output of 25mW, I'm thinking .7mW isn't powerful enough to see the full beam, not just impact point.
Is the full beam of the newer 0.7mW unit visible under nvg's? Considering the PEQ-15 has an IR output of 25mW, I'm thinking .7mW isn't powerful enough to see the full beam, not just impact point.
Why do you need to see the full beam for shot placement?
In certain environments you can see the beam itself, but it's not really necessary as long as you can see the dot on your target.
Most 25mW and higher systems are WAY too bright for precise aiming for close to medium distances as they can and will bloom your target.
Can someone with NODS and a battery draining DBAL I2 class one please do an expirement for me?
Turn the IR LASER on then switch it to the off position and see if you are still getting a dot.
I don't have nods yet but have access to a very cheap "night vision" device that is good enough to pick up the IR dot. I was playing with it and when I turned it to the off possition I was still seeing a dot....place my hand or cover of the IR port and it goes away, remove my hand and it's still there all while in the OFF position.
Maybe this is the issue.....
I'm thinking .7mW isn't powerful enough to see the full beam, not just impact point.
Victor's right. Has nothing to do with the power of the beam, taken as a stand-alone factor, and everything with how much particulate matter is in the air.
Only reason you may see the beam in the first place is if there's something in the air for it to reflect off of, and get picked up by whatever's viewing it. Given the two different power outputs in the same, slightly foggy environment, yes, the path of the laser beams themselves will be visible under I-square devices. And, yes, the beam-path of the higher-output laser will have more energy bouncing off of the water vapor and appear brighter to the viewer. That, however, is a circumstance, not a feature.
The "impact point" of the laser is the center of gravity of what these systems are designed to do. If you've ever directed a laser of any sort by what the beam is doing and not the dot that denotes the actual fall of the laser, you're already on the back end of the power-curve in terms of technique.
In the matter of directing the beam, say, when you're around a bunch of other yahoos with the similar systems producing identical dots, then you point your laser dot at a known point and track it into your target so that you know it's YOUR laser and not somebody else's.
You can't count on seeing the beam path under all conditions; stick with what you KNOW you'll be able to see.
BREAK-BREAK
Rush, idle question, are you talking about putting the IR laser on constant-on, then turning the mode-select to the OFF position without clicking the activation switch to deactivate the beam, first?
Moot point: OFF is supposed to mean OFF, not "OFF.....maybe." Contact the manufacturer, it's jacked.
BREAK-BREAK
Rush, idle question, are you talking about putting the IR laser on constant-on, then turning the mode-select to the OFF position without clicking the activation switch to deactivate the beam, first?
Moot point: OFF is supposed to mean OFF, not "OFF.....maybe." Contact the manufacturer, it's jacked.
IR dot is ON in all modes including off position. It stays on during vis laser usage too.
Mind you it's cheap NV but it picks it up and I know it works bc if I put my hand in front of the IR port it dissappears on the screen.
Not bashing LDI. I will talk to them.
Reagans Rascals
11-04-11, 10:19
I understand the dot is the main purpose for using this type of device, however; I just think it's easier to trace your way to the dot and to maneuver the weapon to a good firing position from off camber/ no-aim type situations with the beam itself, or to point out something to a teammate easier than having them search for a dot.
I use high power pointing lasers in the astronomy field quite often and you wouldn't believe how helpful they are when it comes to getting everyone looking at the same thing.
Think of it like one long extension of your weapon, if you were pointing into the air or at a house and quickly had to turn and come down onto a crouching target at ground level, I just think it's quicker to essentially "slice" a beam down onto the target and fire, than it is to point and then reacquire a dot to fire.
In the end I just think the beam itself can help a lot.
It also points back to the source, ie, you. Not a good thing if there's a risk the bad guys will have their own nods. But for shooting coyotes at night or whatever, not a big deal.
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