View Full Version : Aimpoint Usage Questions
Hey guys, I've been on a mission to choose a 1-4x optic for me for probably a month now and to sell off my Aimpoint in favor of it. So first of all, let me get to the reasons.
1. Astigmatism- I figured a diopter would be able to account for my imperfect vision. Sure I can wear glasses while I shoot, but the Aimpoint's red dot will reflect off my glasses in the right light and make it appear as though there are two dots being projected- and they are identical. Maybe this isn't as big a deal as I think though.
2. Accuracy- THIS is the biggie for me. I feel like I can shoot far more accurately with the irons than I can the Aimpoint, especially with more rapid fire when the dot starts jumping around, and especially at the longer ranges as well (well, 50m+).
So my questions on using the Aimpoint: I've shot irons and higher magnification scopes my whole life before the Aimpoint, so might it be that I just haven't practiced enough to shoot it as accurately as the irons? I could also continue working on sighting it in to fine tune it.
Also, what are some good drills I could start working on to add some challenge to shooting the Aimpoint if I end up keeping it? I think I also tend to get bored shooting it because it's so easy to be honest lol.
Anyway, thanks for any discussion, tips, and recommendations!
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I think you might be misapplying the Aimpoint. The Aimpoint biggest advantage is "speed". The Aimpoint is a fighting sight and as Pat Rogers says, "It is a force multiplier". Guess it depends on what you have an AR for - SD, HD, Paper, Coyotes, etc. I mean some people claim their gun is for SD/HD and they have a 12X scope on it. Going to be awful hard to justify shooting someone in the 'burbs at 400 yards as self-defense or it is going to be even harder to shoot someone running at you at 10-yards with a 12X.
From what I've seen, for an all-around HD/SD gun, I don't think a <$2000 1-4X scope can beat what an Aimpoint does best. Here are some of the trade-offs: speed, field of view, ruggedness, low light, eye position, weight, accuracy, ...
You pretty much give up speed, fov, ruggedness, low light, eye position, and lightweight all for accuracy. Then, it depends on what your definition of "accuracy" is. Offhand or benched, 3-shots or 20, rapid or slow fire, ....all contribute to accuracy....to me.
I've had a T-1 for a year and I don't think I'll ever get rid of it. I went back and forth with different scopes on that rifle and made up my mind that the Aimpoint will be on one rifle and I'll put a scope on the other rifle.
I just bought a Vortex Razor 1-4X and I'm still trying to decide how I like it but I do know that for at least right now, the scoped rifle will not be my go-to-gun. When it is all said and done, it wouldn't surprise or disappoint me if I decide to just have an Aimpoint on each gun.
But maybe it's just me...
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I totally get what you're saying, urct. I took my Aimpoint off my rifle today so that I could put it up for sale and get something like the Viper PST 1-4x...but I didn't even have it off there for long enough to take pictures of it as planned before I'd put it back on. I think I may just get some prescription strength shooting glasses and use my 'gun fund' savings on some other rifle upgrades.
Anyone want to recommend some of your favorite drills to run with the Aimpoint to add some challenge to shooting with it?
Failure2Stop
05-28-11, 10:42
There's a whole thread just on drills, deceptively named "Favorite Drills" in Training and Tactics.
Here is a link to page 6:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=16760&page=6
Which starts where some of my favorite drills are, but feel free to peruse the whole thread.
There's a whole thread just on drills, deceptively named "Favorite Drills" in Training and Tactics.
Here is a link to page 6:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=16760&page=6
Which starts where some of my favorite drills are, but feel free to peruse the whole thread.
I'll check it out, F2S, thanks. I was going to end up going on a hunt for a thread like that anyway, if/when I decide i'm for certain sticking with the Aimpoint. But, when needed for longer shots, an Aimpoint (mine is an ML2 right now) can be every bit as accurate as irons right?
Hello Aaron,
If you are looking to punch paper, then a scope may be better suited for your needs.
If you are looking for a general purpose sight, then the Aimpoint is an excellent sight. It can be very effective at distances over 100 yards with practice and familiarization.
I have an Aimpoint M2 and regularly shoot steel plates at 200 yards and further.
As someone already pointed-out, the only scopes which are going to even come close to the durability and reliability of the AP are going to cost well over a $1K and maybe more into the $2500 range for a Short-Dot.
I would consider keeping the AP, and saving your money for a Trijicon, or Vortex type 1-4.
Or if you want to spend less, Leupold, Burris, or a similar low-powered 1-4X scope for range use.
That is what I did. I currently have three Aimpoints, but use a low- powered Leupold scope with a quick release mount when I am wanting some magnification for shooting paper or hunting.
Examples:
http://www.leupold.com/hunting-and-shooting/products/scopes/vx-ii-riflescopes/vx-ii-1-4x20mm/
http://www.leupold.com/hunting-and-shooting/products/scopes/vx-3-riflescopes/vx-3-1-5-5x20mm/
http://www.leupold.com/hunting-and-shooting/products/scopes/mark-AR-riflescopes/mark-ar-1-5-4x20mm/
http://swfa.com/Burris-1-4x24-Xtreme-Tactical-XTR-30mm-Rifle-Scope-P45510.aspx
Regards,
SkiDevil
P.S. There is a ton of information on this forum regarding scope selection and advantages/ disadvantages of various optics. There was also a thread here recently where other members were discussing optics choices for shooters with vision problems.
Take some time and check-through some of the older threads and the stickies. Also, I would pay particular attention to what FS2 and Army Chief have to say.
Will do, SkiDevil. Thanks again for the opinions- for some reason I'm changing my mind on this about every hour lol, so I'm just gathering all the information I can. If I get a 1-4x, it will be the Vortex Viper PST without a doubt- advantages over Aimpoint are a diopter to adjust focus and the magnification, and the MRAD reticle that would allow me to adjust for holdovers etc. if I ever needed to. Disadvantages- ruggedness, weight.
I'm not really considering battery life a disadvantage because I would suspect that I'd only "need" the illumination of the PST about once in a blue moon. When I bring my rifle home and toss it in the closet/under the bed, the scope will be taken off. Like I said before, even after shooting a few hundred rounds through the Aimpoint, I've shot irons all my life and I'm extremely comfortable/efficient/quick with them. Either way, my gun fund is just about where I want it to be for me to go ahead and do some upgrades and I'll keep you guys posted!
Failure2Stop
05-29-11, 16:29
I have been very impressed with the SWFA 1-4x.
The "T" reticle is versatile and thick enough to work without illumination, which is also impressive. At the highest setting the stadia clearly stand out on a white wall in direct sunlight.
Reportedly the battery life at high power is not impressive, but even if the battery goes down the sight can be effectively used without illumination.
I much prefer 1/10 Mil adjustments to any other option, and they feel distinct in adjustment.
I have no connection to SWFA, it is just a very cost-efficient option if you want a low-powered variable.
christcorp
05-29-11, 17:04
I have a pretty good astigmatism. I also do a lot of hunting. So I'm very familiar with hi-power scopes. The hardest thing for me to learn how to do with shooting; which I've been shooting for about 40 years; is to use a reflex/red-dot type sight, and shoot with both eyes open. When I retired from the military, I was still using iron sights and fixed scopes for longer distances. But trying to use today's eotechs, mullens, and many of the reflex type sights was very difficult. I could do it with one eye closed, like a scope. But doing it with 2 eyes open was difficult getting my brain to superimpose the red-dot onto the object. It started off with me seeing 2 of everything. But the more I practiced, the better I got. This is one reason however that I never Co-Witness my sights. I have no problem Co-Existing my iron sights and my optics; but I won't look through both together.
I personally don't own an Aimpoint, so I can't tell you the best way to shoot it. But I can say that now that my brain has learned how to shoot reflex/red-dot type sights with both eyes open, it is so fast and accurate. It took some heavy practicing. "Especially considering I wear Bi-focals". But the red dots are perfectly clear; dead on balls accurate; and easy to acquire. I have 5 various reflex and/or red-dot sights. And I just ordered an EoTech to play with. I can pick up any of them and shoot it instinctively. Actually, the hardest thing for me now, is shooting an elk, goat, antelope, etc... at 300+ yards with one of my really nice scopes, and accidentally keeping both eyes open. My brain has actually been able to not pay attention to the information coming from the non-scoped eye. Definitely freaky.
Belmont31R
05-29-11, 17:51
I have a pretty good astigmatism. I also do a lot of hunting. So I'm very familiar with hi-power scopes. The hardest thing for me to learn how to do with shooting; which I've been shooting for about 40 years; is to use a reflex/red-dot type sight, and shoot with both eyes open. When I retired from the military, I was still using iron sights and fixed scopes for longer distances. But trying to use today's eotechs, mullens, and many of the reflex type sights was very difficult. I could do it with one eye closed, like a scope. But doing it with 2 eyes open was difficult getting my brain to superimpose the red-dot onto the object. It started off with me seeing 2 of everything. But the more I practiced, the better I got. This is one reason however that I never Co-Witness my sights. I have no problem Co-Existing my iron sights and my optics; but I won't look through both together.
I personally don't own an Aimpoint, so I can't tell you the best way to shoot it. But I can say that now that my brain has learned how to shoot reflex/red-dot type sights with both eyes open, it is so fast and accurate. It took some heavy practicing. "Especially considering I wear Bi-focals". But the red dots are perfectly clear; dead on balls accurate; and easy to acquire. I have 5 various reflex and/or red-dot sights. And I just ordered an EoTech to play with. I can pick up any of them and shoot it instinctively. Actually, the hardest thing for me now, is shooting an elk, goat, antelope, etc... at 300+ yards with one of my really nice scopes, and accidentally keeping both eyes open. My brain has actually been able to not pay attention to the information coming from the non-scoped eye. Definitely freaky.
Just for the sake of trying next time you are at the range try a little trick for me. Put a little piece of scotch tape...maybe 1" long, onto the center of your glasses on your non dominate side. Make sure you put the tape on the glasses as if you were shooting a gun which for most people the head is slightly down.
I am right hand dominate left eye dominate with an astigmatism in my left eye which is why its the dominate one since its a little more powerful than the right. The tape trick will make your vision go WTF for a little bit but I can now shoot anything both eyes open and use my right eye much better. I shoot both RDS's and magnified optics both eyes open.
I dont use tape anymore since when Im shooting Ive trained my left eye to take a nap basically, and learned to focus with my right since the left was handicapped by the tape.
You'll still get vision through the left eye where there is no tape you're just trying to keep your left eye from being that does the focusing.
Belmont31R
05-29-11, 18:00
Also wanted to mention what helped me was getting a set of RX prescription shooting glasses from Decot. You really need a good current RX from the doc, and then talk to the Decot people. I went through them, and was able to set me up with glasses that put my right eye as the dominate one by strengthening the right eye and retarding the left one. I would wear them around for hours, read books, and you're basically teaching your right how to be the one that does the focusing. All you need is a slight tweak, and your brain will start shifting the dominance to the right. I don't wear the glasses anymore or use the tape but I can mentally force my left eye to play dead and let my right eye do the shooting. Sometimes I have trouble doing rapid drills very close in and my left wants to take over. When that happens I go into point shooting mode, and don't even use sights.
I used to shoot ATA trap, and the tape/glasses helped me out a lot because that is all point shooting basically. I had trouble initially shooting clay targets because my left eye was doing all the work. After figuring out what my issue was, getting a good RX, went to Decot with what I wanted, and working with the tape it fixed about 90% of my issues. Never going to be as good as having both sides naturally dominate but its either that or learning to shoot lefty. My left arm could be amputated and I probably wouldn't even notice it. That ****er is dumb so learning to shoot lefty wasn't an option for me.
christcorp
05-29-11, 21:07
good info belmont. But for me, it works out OK. I am a lefty. I am left eye dominant. And my left eye has the more pronounced astigmatism. So for me; all the starts and planets line up fine. I was just so use to shooting with irons and scopes for so many years, that I naturally closed my right eye. It took a little while to get use to shooting with both eyes open, but it's no longer an issue. I can even do it with magnified hunting scopes. But if my dominant eye wasn't my shooting eye, I could see how that could be a lot worse. With open reflex and red-dot type sights, (No magnification), I've actually gotten pretty good at shooting with both eyes open and seeing the red-dot. I actually "CAN'T SEE THE SIGHT" any longer. I see what's out in front of me, and I see a red-dot on it.
Thomas M-4
05-29-11, 22:59
OP astigmatism doesn't mean that a aimpoint will not work for you.
Have you even tried a aimpoint yet?
I have a friend that invested heavily into eotechs 3 of them because he has a astigmatism and was under the impression aimpoint would not work for him [FALSE] he loves my aimpoint and has tried to purchase it off of me several times.
Belmont31R
05-29-11, 23:22
good info belmont. But for me, it works out OK. I am a lefty. I am left eye dominant. And my left eye has the more pronounced astigmatism. So for me; all the starts and planets line up fine. I was just so use to shooting with irons and scopes for so many years, that I naturally closed my right eye. It took a little while to get use to shooting with both eyes open, but it's no longer an issue. I can even do it with magnified hunting scopes. But if my dominant eye wasn't my shooting eye, I could see how that could be a lot worse. With open reflex and red-dot type sights, (No magnification), I've actually gotten pretty good at shooting with both eyes open and seeing the red-dot. I actually "CAN'T SEE THE SIGHT" any longer. I see what's out in front of me, and I see a red-dot on it.
I would still call the people at decot, and explain your eye issues with the astigmatism. For some reason people in the AR community dont want to be seen with funky RX lenses due to eye issues. Its worth a shot, and they are good people over there who understand all manner of eye issues. Even being same side dominate (eye and hand) you can see benefit from a set of RX shooting classes setup properly because astigmatisms can causes issues even in people who are not cross dominate. The most important step in all of this is getting a GOOD current RX to work with. Its something I will be doing in the next few months, and getting some good shooting glasses.
Eyes are not something to battle when it comes to shooting.
OP astigmatism doesn't mean that a aimpoint will not work for you.
Have you even tried a aimpoint yet?
I have a friend that invested heavily into eotechs 3 of them because he has a astigmatism and was under the impression aimpoint would not work for him [FALSE] he loves my aimpoint and has tried to purchase it off of me several times.
I have- I've owned one since October. If I wear my glasses I can see the dot just fine (I assume as good as anyone who doesn't have an astigmatism) but then I often get what I assume is a reflection off my glasses lenses, which makes it look like two identical dots in the sight. That, on top of me wanting some magnification so I can start shooting at longer ranges for a bit of a challenge, and me being (IMO) very proficient with irons all kind of snowballed into me wanting a low magnification optic.
Belmont31R
05-29-11, 23:42
I have- I've owned one since October. If I wear my glasses I can see the dot just fine (I assume as good as anyone who doesn't have an astigmatism) but then I often get what I assume is a reflection off my glasses lenses, which makes it look like two identical dots in the sight. That, on top of me wanting some magnification so I can start shooting at longer ranges for a bit of a challenge, and me being (IMO) very proficient with irons all kind of snowballed into me wanting a low magnification optic.
I would contact a RX shooting glasses company about this before I start selling things at a loss and maybe end up going in a big circle ending up where you started. Decot is who I have experience with but think you need to go to a source rather than get random responses on the internet.
Thomas M-4
05-30-11, 00:08
I have- I've owned one since October. If I wear my glasses I can see the dot just fine (I assume as good as anyone who doesn't have an astigmatism) but then I often get what I assume is a reflection off my glasses lenses, which makes it look like two identical dots in the sight. That, on top of me wanting some magnification so I can start shooting at longer ranges for a bit of a challenge, and me being (IMO) very proficient with irons all kind of snowballed into me wanting a low magnification optic.
Well I wear contacts for my corrective vision. No astigmatism that I am aware of even though M.E.P.S told me I was color blind which is a total crock of shit the State says I am not :jester: [By the way the joker has a red on his left side and a red ball on his hat on the right]. Actually I have 2 buddies that have astigmatism one that is really color blind. The one that has a astigmatism and is color blind wears contacts for his corrective vision prefers my aimpoint to his eotechs the other one with astigmatism and is not colorblind gravitates towards a eotech but he tells me that my aimpoint doesn't give him any problems but he also wears contacts.
If you are wanting more magnification then you got to do what you have to do to get the higher magnification. As far as I am aware astigmatism doesn't bother people on magnified optics. But I am not a optometrists so please take it as such.
christcorp
05-30-11, 00:12
Belmont; I think you might be replying to the other poster. I mentioned having an astigmatism, but I in no way, shape, or form have ANY issues shooting. Not with mag scopes, red-dots, reflex, holo, etc... I can still take elk, sheep, and antelope at close to 400 yards without a worry. And I have no issues with CQB if needed. I was simply stating that for "ME", it took a little getting accustomed to shooting initially with both eyes open. Prior to reflex/holo type sights, I always shot with one eye closed.
I'm not quite sure what your point is? I have no need, nor desire, to get prescription shooting glasses. Maybe the OP does, but I have no reason whatsoever to even consider it. PLUS; I'm not a competition shooter. So for me, adding anything to my shooting that isn't natural for me, goes totally against my training and belief. I.e. I don't ever shoot from a sled, vise, etc... Why? Because in the real world, I won't be using such things for shooting game or for defensive purposes. So prescription shooting glasses would not be an option if they aren't something I'd be wearing normally.
But that's getting off the point. My point was, I think you're mixing up the other poster's astigmatism with my posts. I have an astigmatism, but I have absolutely no vision problems when it comes to shooting; sights used; or target acquisition.
OP,
First tell us what your use for the carbine is for. If HD,SD is high on your list I would in no way recommend selling the AP for a magnified optic. It sounds to me you need to get in more range time with the AP. I too started on irons for many years and also shot high power matches with same. I have owned 5 Aim Points in total and currently have two. My older one is a ML2 with 4moa dot, with this one I have no problems making 200yd torso hits using 55gr fmj ammo. My latest Aim Point is a M4s with a 2moa dot, with this one I can easliy make head shots at 200yrds using 55gr fmj ammo. Accuracy can be increased with better ammo but I am in no need for better accuracy than this as my carbines roles are primarily HD,SD.
I also wear glasses, I do not know if I have an astigmatism or not. By your description it sounds as if you may be over thinking things. Again I wear glasses too, and I catch reflections in them all day everyday and I just deal with them (ignore them). You should not become obsessed with focusing on the reflections in your glasses nor with focusing on the dot in the tube. The idea is to focus on your target with the dot on it. I get the feeling you don't have any problem that more shooting/training/familiarization can't fix.
Now if you are simply persuing better long range accuracy you are on a different path than I am and may want to consider other options.
Keep us informed and good luck.
OP,
First tell us what your use for the carbine is for. If HD,SD is high on your list I would in no way recommend selling the AP for a magnified optic.
It's just a range/camping gun, basically. I have an 800 sq. ft. apartment so moving around in it with my 9mm and a flashlight makes far more sense than using a rifle (to me anyway).
I also wear glasses, I do not know if I have an astigmatism or not. By your description it sounds as if you may be over thinking things. Again I wear glasses too, and I catch reflections in them all day everyday and I just deal with them (ignore them).
I'd be fine with ignoring reflections etc. (like you, I do it all the time). The issue I've been having isn't that the reflection of the red dot "bothers" me, it's that when I focus on the target, it frequently looks like there are two identical dots on the target- one being about halfway between the bottom dot and the top of the Aimpoints glass. It wouldn't "bother" me, per se, but that can make a difference of several feet at even 30-40 yards, and I literally don't know which dot to put on target.
Now if you are simply persuing better long range accuracy you are on a different path than I am and may want to consider other options.
I am indeed pursuing the challenge of shooting at longer ranges with the rifle, as I shoot out to 25-30 yards with my 9mm. Actually I was considering getting some magnification before I even realized I had the "two dot" issue (back when I'd only shot at the indoor range; I don't recall ever seeing two aiming dots shooting indoors).
Keep us informed and good luck.
I'll keep everyone posted, I've got the new build plan laid out, now I'm just kind of waiting and stewing on it a bit to make sure I want to go through with it.
I went ahead and took the dive- she's up for sale in the Equipment Exchange. I'm in no rush to dump it or anything but when it goes, I'll probably pick up a Viper PST.
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=82154
with that cantilever mount, yo could fit a magnifier behind your AP.
I got a cheap PA magnifier to do a "proof of concept" and it does help with the distortion I experience with a RDS alone. you might want to consider trying this before you give up a proven optic...
Alaskapopo
05-31-11, 23:33
.
I think you might be misapplying the Aimpoint. The Aimpoint biggest advantage is "speed". The Aimpoint is a fighting sight and as Pat Rogers says, "It is a force multiplier". Guess it depends on what you have an AR for - SD, HD, Paper, Coyotes, etc. I mean some people claim their gun is for SD/HD and they have a 12X scope on it. Going to be awful hard to justify shooting someone in the 'burbs at 400 yards as self-defense or it is going to be even harder to shoot someone running at you at 10-yards with a 12X.
From what I've seen, for an all-around HD/SD gun, I don't think a <$2000 1-4X scope can beat what an Aimpoint does best. Here are some of the trade-offs: speed, field of view, ruggedness, low light, eye position, weight, accuracy, ...
You pretty much give up speed, fov, ruggedness, low light, eye position, and lightweight all for accuracy. Then, it depends on what your definition of "accuracy" is. Offhand or benched, 3-shots or 20, rapid or slow fire, ....all contribute to accuracy....to me.
I've had a T-1 for a year and I don't think I'll ever get rid of it. I went back and forth with different scopes on that rifle and made up my mind that the Aimpoint will be on one rifle and I'll put a scope on the other rifle.
I just bought a Vortex Razor 1-4X and I'm still trying to decide how I like it but I do know that for at least right now, the scoped rifle will not be my go-to-gun. When it is all said and done, it wouldn't surprise or disappoint me if I decide to just have an Aimpoint on each gun.
But maybe it's just me...
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A good 1-4,5,6,8x scope is a more versatile optic than a red dot sight. The only disadvatages are weight and they are less forgiving when shooting from akward positions. The advantages are being able to see targets and shoot them out to 600 yards with ease while the Aimpoint peters out around 300 and that is on full man sized targets. Forget about hitting partially obscured targets with a 1x optic at longer ranges. For home defense a Aimpoint is fine. But if you want a all around optic a low power variable is far better. As for self defense there is no magic distance at which you can't return fire. While its unlikely but if the threat is 400 yards away you can defend yourself. I have heard people make comments like you can't call it self defense if you shoot someone at X distance. But that is BS.
Pat
A good 1-4,5,6,8x scope is a more versatile optic than a red dot sight. The only disadvatages are weight and they are less forgiving when shooting from akward positions. The advantages are being able to see targets and shoot them out to 600 yards with ease while the Aimpoint peters out around 300 and that is on full man sized targets. Forget about hitting partially obscured targets with a 1x optic at longer ranges. For home defense a Aimpoint is fine. But if you want a all around optic a low power variable is far better. As for self defense there is no magic distance at which you can't return fire. While its unlikely but if the threat is 400 yards away you can defend yourself. I have heard people make comments like you can't call it self defense if you shoot someone at X distance. But that is BS.
Pat
good points here. but I feel that a low power variable scope is by definition a compromise of the speed and performance of a RDS. as you mentioned they are awkward (at best) from unconventional shooting positions and are significantly heavier than a RDS alone.
and I agree that a case can be made for defensive shooting out to 400 yards but you can't shoot what you can't see and you should never shoot at what you can't identify...
Alaskapopo
06-01-11, 13:42
good points here. but I feel that a low power variable scope is by definition a compromise of the speed and performance of a RDS. as you mentioned they are awkward (at best) from unconventional shooting positions and are significantly heavier than a RDS alone.
and I agree that a case can be made for defensive shooting out to 400 yards but you can't shoot what you can't see and you should never shoot at what you can't identify...
I can shoot my Swarovski Z6i just as fast as a red dot up close. The only time it slows me down is if you are shooting from an akward position. The weight is a trade off that I feel is worth it. The scope also allows you to identify and see the threats.
Pat
Seeing how crisp and clear the Aimpoint dot was when taking pictures to put it up for sale really confirmed my decision for me. I have no intentions of going to Afghanistan with this rifle. For you Aimpoint lovers, it's up for sale in the EE (along with my 9" Troy drop-in rail, later this afternoon).
2. Accuracy- THIS is the biggie for me. I feel like I can shoot far more accurately with the irons than I can the Aimpoint, especially with more rapid fire when the dot starts jumping around, and especially at the longer ranges as well (well, 50m+).
This is the deal killer for me with red dots. When a dot is ON and you're in the zone with it. You can get good hits out to distance.
But when you're trying to make a precision shot and you start holding the dot all over the target to try to figger out where the ****ing thing is missing.... it pissed me off big time.
This problem is very rare when working the irons. If you're a marksman, it'll be hard for you to love the Red Dot sights. I can't tell you how many times I've gone shooting with a Red Dot guy and we've wasted time and ammo trying to figure out where the miss is on the small 100 yard popper.
....
...From what I've seen, for an all-around HD/SD gun, I don't think a <$2000 1-4X scope can beat what an Aimpoint does best. ....
I can shoot my Swarovski Z6i just as fast as a red dot up close. The only time it slows me down is if you are shooting from an akward position. The weight is a trade off that I feel is worth it. ....
Pat
===============================
Pat, I don't disagree with you but I think you missed my point about "a scope costing less than $2000 beating what an Aimpoint does best". I do not think there are many, if any.
Unless Obama has just pulled off a miracle and fixed the "dollar", a Swarovski Z6i hasn't quite dipped below the $2K price yet. The only <$2K scope that I've seen that might compete with Aimpoint is maybe a Meopta K-Dot but I think the Aimpoint beats it in ruggedness.
I've read your posts on this forum and don't doubt that you can do what you say with your Z6i but I think, for a HD/SD rifle for an average person, you might be trivializing the value of speed, ease of use, and the ability for easily making an awkward shots in favor of ID'ing a target at 200+ yards.
If I was going to recommend an optic for a HD/SD, for sure, I would not recommend a device more delicate than an Aimpoint or your Z6. I would recommend an Aimpoint for the masses and IF someone had the money and wanted a scope, I'd recommend a Z6i (or other high-end scope) and lots of practice to overcome the steeper learning curve of a scope.
But, again, maybe it's just me...
.
I agree with you, markm. Red dots are probably perfect for some people, I just enjoy the challenge of taking my time for a perfect shot. Going Rambo on a target can be fun at times, but hey, I'm getting a QD mount.
I'd probably like red dots more than I do, too, if they were more clear for me. It seems like the dot is 3+ times the size it is in my pictures, at best, with my glasses on. But even with perfect vision I'd be wanting to try a 1-4x.
Thanks for all the discussion and help, guys. I'll probably also post a review on the Insight WX150 weapon light when I get it in, hopefully in 1-2 days.
Ucrt- from what I've heard, the S&B Short Dot might be the best optic from 0-600 yards that you can have. Most guys say it's just as fast as a red dot up close. I also believe it's under 2k, and that it's being used by more and more soldiers fighting overseas where they may have a 400+ yard shot, and then have to go clear a building immediately after.
Of course, my targets aren't shooting back. But if they are in my apartment I'm grabbing the 9mm and if they aren't, any of my windows or doors (I'm on the 2nd floor, mind you) would put an attacker in 1-4x distances.
I 100% understand people's live for red dots and respect it. Maybe I should do a write-up on things I like/dislike about both, once I've got a few hundred rounds through the Viper.
Alaskapopo
06-01-11, 16:01
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Pat, I don't disagree with you but I think you missed my point about "a scope costing less than $2000 beating what an Aimpoint does best". I do not think there are many, if any.
Unless Obama has just pulled off a miracle and fixed the "dollar", a Swarovski Z6i hasn't quite dipped below the $2K price yet. The only <$2K scope that I've seen that might compete with Aimpoint is maybe a Meopta K-Dot but I think the Aimpoint beats it in ruggedness.
I've read your posts on this forum and don't doubt that you can do what you say with your Z6i but I think, for a HD/SD rifle for an average person, you might be trivializing the value of speed, ease of use, and the ability for easily making an awkward shots in favor of ID'ing a target at 200+ yards.
If I was going to recommend an optic for a HD/SD, for sure, I would not recommend a device more delicate than an Aimpoint or your Z6. I would recommend an Aimpoint for the masses and IF someone had the money and wanted a scope, I'd recommend a Z6i (or other high-end scope) and lots of practice to overcome the steeper learning curve of a scope.
But, again, maybe it's just me...
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The TR24 and the Meopta are two good choices. By the way if your military or a LEO you can get a Z6i for under 2k. For the money an Aimpoint is good and its the best of the RDS sights. Also I admit if you do not ever need to shoot past 100 yards the Red Dot sight is still the best. I like the Micro Aimpoints myself for that application.
Pat
The TR24 and the Meopta are two good choices. By the way if your military or a LEO you can get a Z6i for under 2k. For the money an Aimpoint is good and its the best of the RDS sights. Also I admit if you do not ever need to shoot past 100 yards the Red Dot sight is still the best. I like the Micro Aimpoints myself for that application.
Pat
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Thanks Pat.
I've got one rifle with a T-1 and one scoped. I'll eventually get to a high-end scope. I started with a Burris 1X, then, a Leupold 2.5-8X, and now a Razor HD 1-4X. The incremental changes are a little easier for the bride (and the wallet) to take.
If I could get something right now, it would probably be the Z6i or the SD but being non-LE or mil, I'd have to cough up a little more $$. I would have liked to pickup Belmont's SD but since I just got the Vortex, funds are a little (lot) low.
The Razor seems to be lacking in illumination but I just started playing with it. My next "intermediate" scope might be the new Meopta 1-4X...when and if it ever come out. I talked to Meopta a year ago and it was "almost" ready...just a more few months. Oh well....
Thanks again.
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