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MistWolf
05-28-11, 04:36
With all the good stuff- free float forearms, electronic sights, improved collapsing stocks, flat top receivers and so on, with which to build a modern and improved AR, what is the attraction of a retro? What is their charm? I don't ask to argue why a modern or retro is better than the other, I ask for insight as to which retro folks like and why? What is it about a retro that you find so appealing?

Iraq Ninja
05-28-11, 07:37
Why do people restore muscle cars from the 1960s? The cars of today are much better and more advanced. Why restore WW2 aircraft? Why do people collect stamps? :)

Gun ownership is not all about tactical applications. Some folks collect vintage ARs and there is nothing wrong with that. I fancy WW2 rifles.

Once upon a time, the AR was a simple, lightweight system. I carried a M16A1 and a CAR 15 in the Army. I still have my first AR 15 I bought in 1976 in its original configuration. I still have a bunch of CAR parts from my old unit and someday I intend to build me one... like I used to carry.

rob_s
05-28-11, 07:47
While it's not my bag, some people are collectors and enjoy replicas and such. I don't get it, I find it sometimes creepy, but so long as they don't try to beat me over the head with some kind of KISS-is-better nonsense it's no sweat off my balls.

FWIW, these are the same kinds of people that will obsess over building replicas of current issue guns as well. Hence all the "what pistol grip is correct for a RECCE?" or "what scope reticule do I need for a DMR replica?"

MistWolf
05-28-11, 14:24
Why do people restore muscle cars from the 1960s? The cars of today are much better and more advanced. Why restore WW2 aircraft? Why do people collect stamps? :)

Gun ownership is not all about tactical applications. Some folks collect vintage ARs and there is nothing wrong with that. I fancy WW2 rifles.

Once upon a time, the AR was a simple, lightweight system. I carried a M16A1 and a CAR 15 in the Army. I still have my first AR 15 I bought in 1976 in its original configuration. I still have a bunch of CAR parts from my old unit and someday I intend to build me one... like I used to carry.

I get the collector and restoration thing. I love original Garands, although I am no "Correctness Nazi". P-51D Mustangs don't just fly, they own the skies. There is something about seeing an old Willys Jeep on the trail that warms my heart. So it makes sense to me there are folks who feel the same about retros. I'd just like to hear why

Suwannee Tim
05-28-11, 19:15
One of my childhood occupations was restoring old aircraft as an apprentice to my father and for several years a Cadet in the Confederate Air Force. People devote lifetimes and fortunes to it. I have been pals with men who owned and flew warbirds, a colossally expensive and time consuming hobby. It gets in your blood. I love my M1 rifles and '03 Springfields. They are the only exceptions to my rule "never love something that can't love you back." Can't be explained.

Dump1567
05-28-11, 20:16
I went through the retro phase a few years ago. I like building rifles. My hobby isn't so much shooting, but tinkering. I guess it's just like restoring old cars, I like building/customizing guns.

I don't currently have a retro AR, but have been considering an M16 A2 clone or something similiar to what I was issued in the Army (M16 A1 w/round handguards).

USAFCATM
05-28-11, 20:24
Let's take a look at this picture of a few of my ARs:

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q236/USMCGruntUSAFCATM/Firearms/Rifles/DCP_1825.jpg

On the right is my M-4gery. SOPMOD stock, Colt upper, KAS rail system, M-68 and Matech BUIS are a few features on this one. If I sold this rifle today, I could order up every piece again tomorrow and put another one together just like it. No big deal.
On the left is my 601 made out of original parts with the exception of the lower, FCG, buffer, magazine and trigger guard. Everything else came off an original 601 made in the early 60's. If I sold that rifle today, where would I find an original 1:14" twist barrel or an upper that didn't have the directional arrows on the rear sight windage knob? Loosing that rifle is loosing a piece of history that can not be easily replaced if at all. Retro rifles are a part of the history of the M-16 design and it's the appreciation of that history is what drives on a lot of our desires to save that history for future generations. Sorry if you can't appreciate that.

MistWolf
05-28-11, 22:03
One of my childhood occupations was restoring old aircraft as an apprentice to my father and for several years a Cadet in the Confederate Air Force...

Damn lucky to grow up like that. I love old WWII aircraft. That's why I got into aviation


...Sorry if you can't appreciate that.

Hold on now, it isn't that I can't appreciate it. My favorite AR was the A2 flat top and I'm still getting used to the idea it's considered a retro. I guess they would call it the A4 these days. Like I said earlier, I get collecting & restoring. I'm just trying to get folks to tell their stories about their retros and why they chose them.

Nice ARS!

The Cat
05-29-11, 02:23
Good question, Mr Wolf.

I'm going down the Retro Road sometime in the near future, and it'll be an A1-style AR.

Why?

I got into the black rifle world when A1's were common as dirt and A2's were just coming on the market. A2's were the latest and greatest, what with the new sights and semi-heavy barrel and round CAR-like handguards. I ended up with a good A2, and sold my A1.
Next for me came the A2 carbine, then the M4-style flattop, then rails, then BUIS, optics, new furniture, etc etc etc. Now the A2 configuration is old-hat just like the A1 was back ~1990.
I absolutely love my M4 carbine. It is perfect for my needs and I cannot think of anything that needs to be changed or added to it.

But nowadays, when I pick up an SP-1, feel the triangles and how light the gun is, its balance, just the gun's feel... well, I miss it, and that's why I want another.

I have a set of triangle handguards new-in-wrapper and a few 20-rounder mags grouped together....... it won't be long before it grows into a complete rifle :p


ETA: I know how you feel about A2's being considered Retro - it's like hearing '80s music on Oldies stations......

MistWolf
05-29-11, 03:05
...I know how you feel about A2's being considered Retro - it's like hearing '80s music on Oldies stations...

Ya had to go there, didn't you...?

usmcvet
05-29-11, 04:49
It is fun for me to check out the older guns. I Like the history behind the older guns too. I don't have they money or desire to build a completely correct gun but did a retroish SBR.

I've never used a toward assist in anything but training or drills and I already have a pair of M4 AimPoints and didn't want to buy another one so an A1/2 upper made sense to me.

https://www.m4carbine.net/picture.php?albumid=304&pictureid=2025

For me the A2 came first. If I'd used a 10.5" or 11.5" bbl on it instead of the 14.5" I might not have sold it.

https://www.m4carbine.net/picture.php?albumid=304&pictureid=1973

https://www.m4carbine.net/picture.php?albumid=304&pictureid=1680

Then the SP1

https://www.m4carbine.net/picture.php?albumid=374&pictureid=1897

https://www.m4carbine.net/picture.php?albumid=374&pictureid=1896

https://www.m4carbine.net/picturesqueness.php?albumid=374&pictureid=1897

Suwannee Tim
05-29-11, 08:22
Damn lucky to grow up like that. I love old WWII aircraft. That's why I got into aviation....

After my father died when I was 17-1/2 I completely lost interest in aviation. I wanted to follow in my Uncle's footsteps which was to be a Marine and a college professor. Neither of those worked out. I was so poor in college, I didn't do much more than study and whatever was necessary to survive. I attended Columbia University for three years and New York City is very expensive. I had not one dime left for fun. After that, career and family. Guns require a lot less commitment than aircraft. You can lock your guns in the safe and leave them alone for a year then take them shooting. Can't do that with an aircraft. They need ongoing care, insurance, a hangar, license fees, inspections, lots of money for a young guy with college debt, a mortgage and cetera.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q236/USMCGruntUSAFCATM/Firearms/Rifles/DCP_1825.jpg

Love that rifle on the left.

djegators
05-29-11, 08:45
A good friend of mine, who swore he had no interests in ARs until he met, recently put together a clone of the M16A1 he was issued in Viet Nam in '67. I had already put together a real nice BCM middy for him, so his primary AR being settled, he is now venturing out, and building a collection.

chadbag
05-29-11, 13:57
I fancy WW2 rifles.


Me too. There is something about picking up a 1903, M38 swede, K98, Ljungman, or my favorite, one of the various Enfield No 1 or No 4 models. Especially when they are relatively cheap. I have a few slightly more expensive "correct ones" (all original 1917 Australian No 1 Mk III) and a supposedly real No 5 jungle carbine but most are just fun shooters of the period.

My serious rifles are just that. The rest are for fun (and 5th string backup ;-0 )

Chad

eo500
05-29-11, 14:46
I, for one, am glad that some people build/collect/ and shoot retro rifles. I love seeing and shooting them myself. Unfortunately I don't have the resources to get one for myself but perhaps someday... My current financial priority is obtaining a backup rifle possibly a SBR, and another G19. While I love the latest, greatest tech, I also have a great appreciation for historical rifles so I can remember where we came from. I'd love to eventually have a collection of every service rifle from the 1903 Springfield up to the M4, but I fear I'll need to hit the lotto before that dream becomes a reality. At least I have a few friends that together we can put a "shoot through the century" afternoon together at the range. :D

usmcvet
05-29-11, 19:02
[QUOTE=Iraq Ninja;1009455]I fancy WW2 rifles. QUOTE]

And Sub Guns. I think you said you had a chance to to carry a Sterling in the Sand Box.

jtb0311
05-29-11, 23:40
I like them for the history, and because I'm not much into tacticool shit. I've long wondered why guys who like retro ARs catch fire, while guys who like Garands, M14s, etc. don't.

I also take personal pleasure in shooting faster and more accurately with plain jane iron sights than guys with optics and free floated this and that. I shoot as well with my modern, free floated HB carbine with ACOG as I do with my Colt 603 clone (at least to 100 yards).

I'm a firm believer that 95% of performance comes from the shooter, not the equipment.

If you want to have the "best" AR, you have to rebuild it every few months, anyway, it gets old. My "modern" AR is at least 3 years out of date. The only Magpul product I have is the grip! I still use USGI magazines!!!

120mm
05-30-11, 02:01
I'm kind of twisted that way as well.

I once spent a couple years getting reasonably good at shooting the Colt 1851 Navy revolver. No real reason except to get an idea of what kind of skill set it took, and to test some things I've heard as per the b.s. potential.

Since I learned my BRM on an M16A1, I am not that curious about them, but I can definitely see why others might.

120mm
05-30-11, 02:04
Double post

karlb
05-30-11, 09:53
My first hands-on experience with the M16 was the Hydra-matic M16a1 I was issued in basic. I shot it more accurately than any A2 I was issued after it. After I had put together a couple M4 type carbines, I decided to get back to basics and put together a 604 type slickside 20 incher. It's a fun gun, but it gets more attention at the range than anything else I bring along. Really, what's the difference between that rifle and all the ones you see on the boards running a flattop, rail, back-up sights only, while "saving up for the optic" that they will never buy. I'd rather have an A1 upper than Troy back-up sights with no optic. Just my 2 cents.

The Cat
05-31-11, 09:03
Ya had to go there, didn't you...?


LOL yeah - I went there. And parked. :cool:


karlb - That reminds me of what Kelsey Grammer said in 'Down Periscope' - "She may not be the youngest girl atthe ball, but she'll still turn a head or two."

markm
05-31-11, 09:12
Retro like A1 style? Some would call the A2 rifle retro I suppose. I just put together a 20" A2 on an FNMI barrel and Colt A2 upper.

I was able to shoot a 2" 100 yard 5 shot group with the thing...

A retro car can't perform like a modern vehicle. But on the AR, not many of the modern ammenities actually add anything to the weapons performance.

The Cat
05-31-11, 09:41
Actually, yeah - A2's are being considered Retro nowadays :eek:

marswallace
06-08-11, 04:25
edited! ops..

marswallace
06-08-11, 04:26
Hi guys (first message :D)

why retro? because it looks so special forces... :confused::confused:

Today we need to attach to our rifles flashlights, dots, grips, infrared lasers... Troy just released a GPS stock for AR15... and a railed coffee machine is on its way :jester:

Soldiers needs tons of equipments... But give a SF operator a knife and he won't need anything else.
So that it is, for me... retro rifles look SF.

Nowdays I can barely imagine someone in the jungle without a camelback... so maximum respect!!

Sleeper362
06-08-11, 15:19
The older designs/rifles have more contributed to the creation of more worm food than any JJ raygun M4 ever will. The first AR I ever shot at a target with purpose was an A1. People who add parts without need tend to loose sight of the purpose. Kind of like the mechanics I met who had over 40K worth of tools and tool boxes but couldn't time a motor with a wrench and their ears. Back before we felt the need to "improve" the AR-15 platform, there was no talk of different buffers, or carriers, or concern about the length of the gas tube. People shot them more than they modified them and they shot VERY well and looked a whole lot better than these god awful dissipator rifles I see on here (talking about fixing something that ain't broken).

Most people who look down or don't understand vintage ARs probably have shot at nothing more than paper whole lives and would blow a fuse if asked to depend solely on their iron sights. Screw them, I love these rifles just as much as I love the JJ ray gun ninja rifles everyone thinks they need.

rob_s
06-08-11, 15:22
The older designs/rifles have more contributed to the creation of more worm food than any JJ raygun M4 ever will. The first AR I ever shot at a target with purpose was an A1. People who add parts without need tend to loose sight of the purpose. Kind of like the mechanics I met who had over 40K worth of tools and tool boxes but couldn't time a motor with a wrench and their ears. Back before we felt the need to "improve" the AR-15 platform, there was no talk of different buffers, or carriers, or concern about the length of the gas tube. People shot them more than they modified them and they shot VERY well.

Most people who look down or don't understand vintage ARs probably have shot at nothing more than paper whole lives and would blow a fuse if asked to depend solely on their iron sights. Screw them, I love these rifles just as much as I love the JJ ray gun ninja rifles everyone thinks they need.

adding parts without purpose = stupid
forgoing parts in spite of added effectiveness = stupid

There is a happy medium. Many have not found it, and never will find it, because they lack the ability to simply be honest with themselves and remove themselves from the equation when attempting to make an evaluation.

Sleeper362
06-08-11, 15:37
adding parts without purpose = stupid
forgoing parts in spite of added effectiveness = stupid

There is a happy medium. Many have not found it, and never will find it, because they lack the ability to simply be honest with themselves and remove themselves from the equation when attempting to make an evaluation.True. I have what could be considered a retro A2 that will remain that way, I had many people at the range ask me what my plans for it were and I would usually reply "shooting it". I did just finish my DMR, it has an ACOG. I was trained with an A2 and I was upgraded to an ACOG equipped A4 when I got in country, so I stick with what I know. I also have a Galil to remind me of the IDF chick I dated when I was over in Israel. One thing I will not do is add parts that add no usefulness to me. I would rather go without a small degree of capability to avoid a large degree of encumbrance.

Todd.K
06-09-11, 12:11
adding parts without purpose = stupid
forgoing parts in spite of added effectiveness = stupid

Unless the parts added without purpose make the gun unreliable it is far more stupid to forgo the parts (or modern training to learn how to use them) that add effectiveness.

Now if you just want to make something that is aesthetically pleasing or historically correct I get that. I don't get why your taste should be a factor in what goes on a modern combat weapon. I like the history so I hope this doesn't become the bash anything new subforum.



Also the A2 is retro, get over it. You can't just draw a line in the sand and say everything from this point forward shall forever be called "new" and only something proceeding it can be "old". Time doesn't stop when you draw that line, the A2 is going on three decades old. :)

markm
06-09-11, 13:05
Also the A2 is retro, get over it. You can't just draw a line in the sand and say everything from this point forward shall forever be called "new" and only something proceeding it can be "old". Time doesn't stop when you draw that line, the A2 is going on three decades old. :)

Who's in charge of the line? :p

To me.. if you put together a fighting gun that's under 4MOA, semi auto, reliable, made of good parts, and light and sling capable... it's status on the internuts is irrelevant.... And the Smelly bad guy you shoot in the face isn't going to be any less dead if your gun is an A2.

Todd.K
06-09-11, 13:50
Well if you happen to use an A2 configuration (or A1) rifle for real use then carry on. If you are collecting or making a clone I'd say it fits the retro forums. I'd rather not see a thread in the tech forum about what part X is correct for a Black Hawk Down era A2...

markm
06-09-11, 13:51
I'd rather not see a thread in the tech forum about what part X is correct for a Black Hawk Down era A2...

I completely agree. ;)

MistWolf
06-09-11, 17:31
This isn't "Retro vs Modern" thread- no derisive comments about either style. It's about understanding the attraction of the retro.

Why do you like your retro? How do you find a retro satisfying- whether it's a practical reason or not. There must be something about them, or we wouldn't go out of our way to create a "Retro" category

usmcvet
06-09-11, 19:52
This isn't "Retro vs Modern" thread- no derisive comments about either style. It's about understanding the attraction of the retro.

Why do you like your retro? How do you find a retro satisfying- whether it's a practical reason or not. There must be something about them, or we wouldn't go out of our way to create a "Retro" category

For me it is just fun.

ccosby
06-09-11, 23:57
Why not?

Anyway I really want to built an a2 20 inch gun and some point and a 11.5 inch off a c7 upper. Just haven't gotten around to them yet. Have my 10.5 inch sbr with its suppressor, rail, red dot, etc on it. Love the thing but their is something to be said for a simple setup with iron sights.

My 20inch flat top was my basic gun with its carry handle. At this point I've started to change it though(kac rail, front grip, at some point I'll add an acog).

mini4m3
06-10-11, 03:32
I like retro's because of the history behind them!

peabody
06-16-11, 00:25
i built my A1 slickside , because i wanted some thing like i carried in basic,
i shot it very well.

mine is just a mixed bag of parts, no-dak partial fence lower, and a fulton armory slickside upper, green mountian 1/12 pencil barrel.
model one sales triangular handhuards.
and a old A1 stock.

its a great shooter, very accurate, and EVERYONE , who see's it, whats to try it out.
they love it. i did send the trigger off to bill springfield., and a tubbs flat recoil spring.
its really smooth.and LIGHTWEIGHT

peabody

DirtDiver06
06-16-11, 11:49
Hi guys (first message :D)

why retro? because it looks so special forces... :confused::confused:

Today we need to attach to our rifles flashlights, dots, grips, infrared lasers... Troy just released a GPS stock for AR15... and a railed coffee machine is on its way :jester:

Soldiers needs tons of equipments... But give a SF operator a knife and he won't need anything else.
So that it is, for me... retro rifles look SF.

Nowdays I can barely imagine someone in the jungle without a camelback... so maximum respect!!

This comment makes your lack of knowledge apparent.

Slater
06-18-11, 22:06
There's some "retro" things I really miss. Like when you could go into your local Woolworths and buy an AR-15. Or even the sporting goods store in the mall (which also sold HK-91's). :)

Austerity
06-19-11, 08:03
I have two carbines and love them. One is a KISS Colt 727 and the other one has all the "needed" do-dads I will likely never use or need.

If you want to ask me why I like retros, well, I learned on a 20" A2 (M16A2, specifically), and still remember hitting steel targets at long distances with extreme precision and ease.

I also prefer iron sights, maybe i'm just old school.

markm
06-19-11, 08:14
I also prefer iron sights, maybe i'm just old school.

You're a rifleman. Frowned upon here sometimes.... but be proud.

Magic_Salad0892
06-19-11, 08:44
You're a rifleman. Frowned upon here sometimes.... but be proud.

I've come to agree with the Iron Sight crowd. Even in low light, I prefer Irons to red dots. Not sure why.

Magnification is another story, but I like Irons.

It's funny to think that all those dudes on TOS will bitch you out if you don't have BUIS, but I'm willing to bet most of the BUIS in the picture threads aren't even set to zero.

Sleeper362
06-19-11, 22:04
O-2 and your eyeball is the original 1X CQB sight.

Beat Trash
07-03-11, 13:08
Why retro?

For me, its for nostalgia.

For 3 out of my 4 years in the Marine Corps, I was issued an M16A1. The new M16A2's were just starting to be issued my last year.

My first AR15 was an SP1. Handling one of these guns reminds me of my youth.

All of my work (LEO), home protection, self defense and training needs are handled by Colt 6920's.

But sometimes you bring out a gun just for the fun of it.

decodeddiesel
07-04-11, 16:15
Retro like A1 style? Some would call the A2 rifle retro I suppose. I just put together a 20" A2 on an FNMI barrel and Colt A2 upper.

I was able to shoot a 2" 100 yard 5 shot group with the thing...

A retro car can't perform like a modern vehicle. But on the AR, not many of the modern ammenities actually add anything to the weapons performance.

Agreed fully. I have never been able to shoot an iron sighted military rifle like I can an M16A2. Ivans at 300 meters are child's play with that thing.

ccosby
07-04-11, 16:50
It's funny to think that all those dudes on TOS will bitch you out if you don't have BUIS, but I'm willing to bet most of the BUIS in the picture threads aren't even set to zero.

I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people throw a rear flip up sight on and don't zero it. I can't say much I think the irons on my sbr need to be adjusted a click or two. Its pretty close though, didn't have a spotted scope with me when I adjusted it. Just wanted to make sure it was pretty close.

On my 20 inch rifle they are pretty much gtg. Looking at finishing another gun with either an a2 upper or a c7 upper with 20 inch barrel. Something to be said about simple.

A-Bear680
09-24-11, 19:58
Because I had more time with the M16A1 than anything else . I never owned one , they were all issue. There are around 3 A2/M4 lowers , 2 A2 style uppers and 3 middy uppers at the Bear house .

So I'm putting an M16A1 together now: Unissued Colt M16A1 parts kit and a NoDak Spud M16A1 reciever . There are a couple of companies that will engrave the pony , US property , faux pin , etc , markings.
The thing that frosts me is that ATFE harassed & intimidated the importer into chopping the original Colt barrel.
Totally lawless vandalism. Just makes the kit that much more costly & that much less real.
The once a " Machine Gun Rule " is total BS , as well . That's a story that can wait till anorther time.

Todd.K
09-24-11, 23:14
The thing that frosts me is that ATFE harassed & intimidated the importer into chopping the original Colt barrel.
Totally lawless vandalism.
Here is what the Law says, it's not being made up by the ATF.

18USC925(d)(3)
"it shall be unlawful to import any frame, receiver, or barrel of such firearm which would be prohibited if assembled"

http://frwebgate2.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/TEXTgate.cgi?WAISdocID=Ojp114/0/1/0&WAISaction=retrieve

A-Bear680
09-25-11, 07:17
Not arguing just puzzled on several different levels.
I was under the impression that returning US made barrels , frames ( semi only ) etc were considered to be different than foriegn made parts. So I take it that if the US made barrel was originally built for a select fire M16A1 ( illegal ) then it must be chopped.

Seems like another restriction that has nothing to do with public safety or crime prevention . The ATFE Reform Act of 2011 will kill the barrel ban when it Congress finally votes it in.

Todd.K
09-25-11, 11:21
It is imported unless.

(4) was previously taken out of the United States or a
possession by the person who is bringing in the firearm or
ammunition.


I would also like to see the non sporting use import restrictions changed.

A-Bear680
09-25-11, 19:39
Thanks for clarifying that.
I think that the non-sporting use concept is doomed , but it may take years , multiple court cases , and lots of lawyers , votes & money to make it stick.

Gubbins
04-07-12, 23:41
Why do people restore muscle cars from the 1960s? The cars of today are much better and more advanced. Why restore WW2 aircraft? Why do people collect stamps? :)

Gun ownership is not all about tactical applications. Some folks collect vintage ARs and there is nothing wrong with that. I fancy WW2 rifles.

Once upon a time, the AR was a simple, lightweight system. I carried a M16A1 and a CAR 15 in the Army. I still have my first AR 15 I bought in 1976 in its original configuration. I still have a bunch of CAR parts from my old unit and someday I intend to build me one... like I used to carry.

+1
SO well put.

usmcvet
04-08-12, 08:02
Here is what the Law says, it's not being made up by the ATF.

18USC925(d)(3)
"it shall be unlawful to import any frame, receiver, or barrel of such firearm which would be prohibited if assembled"

http://frwebgate2.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/TEXTgate.cgi?WAISdocID=Ojp114/0/1/0&WAISaction=retrieve

I clicked on the link but it was dead.

Is this a new law since '94? I ask because in '93/'94 I bought a M14 parts kit that was imported from Israel. It had a beautiful Winchester bbls marked March/1968.

FN in MT
04-08-12, 10:59
Last year I sent off the proper parts and had an XM-177 upper built, with a lt wt barrel and the proper faux Moderator installed.

It came home and I mounted the upper on a spare Spikes lower to test fire it. It hasn't been off that lower yet, and it gets almost as much trigger time as any of the oothers in the stable.

Everyone that shoots it likes the light weight, balance and most are surprised how accurate it is...DESPITE those old iron sights, way up there on the carry handle. LOL.

Less IS more at times.

I still need to find or put together the proper appearing lower, as well as find one of the old collapsible stocks.

Built this one to duplicate the XM's I saw when I was in the USAF way back in the late 1960's. So a nostalgia thing for me.

FN in MT

usmcvet
04-08-12, 14:12
FN

Photos please!

FN in MT
04-08-12, 14:47
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h274/montanaguy375/IMG_3208.jpg

On the left is an old Colt Sporter in 7.62x39. The XM clone UPPER is on the right. I ended up sticking a Mag-Pul handguard and a light on it. My new "house gun".

The .540" lt barrel was cut and a very nice faux moderator installed and pinned by one of the guys over on the AR retro forums; HeatnBeat.

I still need a proper era handguard. WHY I stuck the Mag Pul on...simply to try it.

I really should get the proper lower from NoDak Spud. Then get some faux USAF XM engravings, as well as the "Property of US Govt" engraving, from Ident Markings, get it refinished and finish this project UP.

Need a proper butt stock. DID find a coouple of proper era OD nylon slings , as well as pistol grip. And a few old 20 round GI mags too.

FN in MT

usmcvet
04-08-12, 14:54
Looks good. I use the MOE handguards on my guns too.

FN in MT
04-08-12, 15:02
Looks good. I use the MOE handguards on my guns too.

Sorry for the lousy, long distance digital, but I had it in the HD already.

I have an old LE buddy who occasionally gifts me with "over stocks" from his Agency. Few yrs back it was Mag Pul stuff. Hence everything wearing MP hand guards. I DO like them as well. and the cheap little add on kit to be able to mount the VLTOR light holder...works perfectly.

I've got so many other irons in the fire...I need to get off my ass and get that AR project done.

FN in MT

usmcvet
04-08-12, 15:19
I have an FN A2 upper and bbl ready to go but need to find my upper block so I can put them together. I checked Brownells and they're out of stock.first ding all of the parts was half the fun. Its going to wear an old set of A2 handguards.

http://i859.photobucket.com/albums/ab160/usmcvet0331/Snapbucket/2B5A696A-orig.jpg

Todd00000
04-09-12, 11:01
Why do people restore muscle cars from the 1960s? The cars of today are much better and more advanced. Why restore WW2 aircraft? Why do people collect stamps? :)

Gun ownership is not all about tactical applications. Some folks collect vintage ARs and there is nothing wrong with that. I fancy WW2 rifles.

Once upon a time, the AR was a simple, lightweight system. I carried a M16A1 and a CAR 15 in the Army. I still have my first AR 15 I bought in 1976 in its original configuration. I still have a bunch of CAR parts from my old unit and someday I intend to build me one... like I used to carry. I agree and they are still a simple and light weight system. I have an "A1" like I carried in basic.

Todd.K
04-11-12, 10:54
Is this a new law since '94? I ask because in '93/'94 I bought a M14 parts kit that was imported from Israel. It had a beautiful Winchester bbls marked March/1968.
The barrels were added in 2005.

usmcvet
04-11-12, 11:24
Thank you Todd.

yellowfin
04-23-12, 08:21
Would it be wrong of me to make an A1 6.5 Grendel? The A1 was intended as a rifleman's rifle.

usmcvet
04-23-12, 13:46
Would it be wrong of me to make an A1 6.5 Grendel? The A1 was intended as a rifleman's rifle.

I say you should make whatever you want. I just took a Kino bbl and put it on an A1 slick side upper. It is what I wanted.

Dknight16
04-23-12, 19:44
Heh. This cracks me up. I recently bought a Sig516 and joined this forum to find out more about outfitting M4s. I know the AR-15 platform has evolved GREATLY since the 1960s, but imagine my surprise to find out my early 80's Colt SP1 Sporter is considered "retro"!

I guess I never thought about it like that. To me it still looks futuristic. But given what M4s look like in the post-ban era, I know I need to be more realistic. I'm really glad that I finally got around to having both retro and modern. I'm really glad to be here and learn from the community.

MistWolf
06-02-12, 23:30
Ha! Imagine my surprise when I discovered my 20" A2 flat top is considered retro!
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/Liberty/056.jpg

shep854
06-17-12, 20:56
I was issued an -A1 in the Corps as well, so there's the nostalgia plus the history of US service rifles.
I used to have an Olympic -A1 clone, but got dumb and sold it. When I get the money for the parts, I plan to build another one.
It's tempting to start a collection of mil-style ARs; -A2, CAR, M4gery along with -A4 & -A5. Actually, I can buy multiple uppers to swap around on the lowers, to get the clone I want to shoot whenever.

Kain
06-17-12, 23:33
To quote a good friend of mine on why one may buy a gun, "Because it makes my dick hard!" I really don't find that one needs a reason beyond that. But, I will nevertheless follow it up with more reasons, mainly that I find older guns and styles and configurations, to include the AR platform, to be in my eyes very ascetically pleasing, the A1 especially is a rifle that I find draws the eyes. So guns as toys, as tools, and as art, what more reason does one need to want to own one?

hk_shootr
06-19-12, 05:59
....... What is it about a retro that you find so appealing?


'83 Colt SP1 carbine, what more do you need?

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c341/faawrenchbndr/c95c4298.jpg

MistWolf
06-19-12, 21:13
hk_shootr, it certainly doesn't get any simpler than that! Nice rifle!

fowler
06-23-12, 08:17
I like them simple without all the garbage people put on them today.

M-FOURTEEN
07-13-12, 13:42
I do like the modern variations, but the old school A1's represent everything that an AR is supposed to be....Light as hell, 100% assault ready, and good looking to boot. Its the ultimate good guy gun.

usmcvet
07-13-12, 17:12
I like old cars too, don't have one, can't justify the cost. Retro AR's I can afford. It is fun.

Gunnut003
07-14-12, 15:32
The lightweight retros balance nicely, and they are COOL!...

TMcGuff
07-24-12, 23:46
Because even with all the new and amazing gear. Old guns are fun to shoot.

Vorpal_weapon
07-25-12, 12:13
I have two original Colt SP-1 ARs that I’ve owned for a very long time. When I joined, the Army was still issuing M-16A1, and we thought it was pretty effective. It was a reliable, light-weight, accurate rifle that could produce devastating terminal effect with the issued M193 ammo. It was simple to use, easy to maintain, light to carry. I liked the system enough that I acquired the closest thing I could to my issued rifle – a Colt SP-1. I used it for leg matches when I was on the rifle team - it rocked. It was a reliable and accurate companion in my youth, and I trusted my life to it. I bought another for my wife when we married, and I've managed to keep all three (2 original Colts and 1 original wife).:D

I’ve migrated through all of the “upgrades” the intervening years have brought, and I’ve bought the best of each new generation. Some I’ve kept; others I’ve used to trade up when then next new hot thing came along. I currently have a healthy stable of quality ARs (Colt, LMT and Noveske and an ARP 6.8 upper). I still like my first old Colts about as well as any of the others and have no plans to let them get away. Every time I handle them, I’m amazed at how light and handy they are. I’m also impressed at the quality of craftsmanship and the capability those rifles represent. They still easily shoot under 2 minutes with Federal 55 grain ammo I can buy at Wal-Mart.

Many of the changes that have been introduced were intended to improve durability/serviceability for military use and don’t generate significant benefit to most civilian shooters. Sure, I like flat-tops for optics, faster twist barrels for heavier, longer bullets, free float handguards with accessory rails for white light and a QD bipod or a VFG, and a switchblock for use with a suppressor (thanks Noveske), but . . . most of the time, most of that stuff is just hanging on the rifle “in case I need it.”

The capability that comes with many of the mods is for many users superfluous and in those instances, they merely add weight and complexity. I’ve come to like my solutions as simple as possible – its kind of an Occam’s razor thing. On a cost/benefit basis I think the simpler, lighter 20” rifles still excel for what most people would want an AR-15 for: a reliable, light-weight, accurate rifle that can produce the necessary terminal effect with commonly available ammo. They’re also svelte and attractive, but that’s merely a bonus.

Larry Vickers
08-17-12, 17:52
The Retros are very important in respect to preserving history; modern small arms in most cases are combinations of past principles that have been combined into a package that up to that point did not exist

These older weapons allow us track the past so we can plot a course for the future ; the fact it is extremely enjoyable just adds to the experience

Thanks to forums like this and vendors like Nodak Spud the AR retro market is better than it has ever been; NDS deserves everlasting thanks for coming out with all the old styles of AR lowers with excellent quality to boot!!

Good times to be a black rifle fan for sure !!

Enjoy

LAV

ffhounddog
08-17-12, 18:42
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c68/ffhounddog/IMG_20120608_184150.jpg

My retro middy/GUU-5p type. I was going to do the whole 14.5 but the middy just seemed better at the time of the build. Also it was fun.

Todd00000
08-20-12, 07:23
I get the collector and restoration thing. I love original Garands, although I am no "Correctness Nazi". P-51D Mustangs don't just fly, they own the skies. There is something about seeing an old Willys Jeep on the trail that warms my heart. So it makes sense to me there are folks who feel the same about retros. I'd just like to hear why

Iraq Ninja told you why.

MistWolf
08-21-12, 21:43
Iraq Ninja told you why.

He did. He told us why retros work for him. I want to hear from others as well. What about your story? You mentioned wanting a rifle like you carried in basic. What is the attraction for you, I mean, why do you have nostalgia for the rifle you carried in basic?

It's not that I don't understand the nostalgia. There are plenty of firearms that evoke nostalgia for me.

What's your story?

Todd00000
08-22-12, 07:07
He did. He told us why retros work for him. I want to hear from others as well. What about your story? You mentioned wanting a rifle like you carried in basic. What is the attraction for you, I mean, why do you have nostalgia for the rifle you carried in basic?

It's not that I don't understand the nostalgia. There are plenty of firearms that evoke nostalgia for me.

What's your story?

If you understand nostalgia then you know why anyone wants something that is not as good as it's modern equivalent. Hell I’ve been thinking of selling my 2005 Corvette to buy a 1979 Ferrari 308 with 4 Webers.

I bought my first AR when I was 23 before the Clinton ban, it was an "A1" with A2 plastic, so two years ago I bought vintage A1 platic that still had the white basic training number on it just like the one I carried in basic in 1988.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e130/toddgriffin00/001-7.jpg

Todd00000
08-22-12, 07:13
He did. He told us why retros work for him. I want to hear from others as well. What about your story? You mentioned wanting a rifle like you carried in basic. What is the attraction for you, I mean, why do you have nostalgia for the rifle you carried in basic?

It's not that I don't understand the nostalgia. There are plenty of firearms that evoke nostalgia for me.

What's your story?

If you understand nostalgia then you know why anyone wants something that is not as good as it's modern equivalent. Hell I’ve been thinking of selling my 2005 Corvette to buy a 1979 Ferrari 308 with 4 Webers.

I bought my first AR when I was 23 before the Clinton ban, it was an "A1" with A2 plastic, so two years ago I bought vintage A1 platic that still had the white basic training number on it just like the one I carried in basic in 1988.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e130/toddgriffin00/001-7.jpg

SteveS
08-22-12, 22:10
I bought my first AR in the early 70s other than upgrades over time. they are really almost the same gun to me. 'Other than the fun [ fun is the most important thing] of having the retro look"

ramairthree
08-23-12, 16:24
Can't say for sure, but I know it when I feel it.

I grew up getting driven around in then new muscle cars.
I had a 4 different colors of blue primer, heap of a, breaking down 69
GTO when I was a teenager. I have a modern muscle car, and a sweet 69 GTO. It just feels right.

I remember humming the SWAT tune and running and grabbing my plastic M16 just like the show started. I bought a used SP1 as a teenager in the early 80s. I still have it. At work I remember turning in our A1s for the 2s in the 80s. Then came the M4. I have modern ARs. I have an A1 based CAR. It just feels right.

Things that were part of your life, and the history, and still working, you just feel it. Same reason you strap a leather sheathed Randal on your belt when a folder or smaller, mass produced Kydex sheathed knife on your kit would be just fine.

williejc
08-23-12, 19:58
I bought my Colt AR-15A2 in '87, and I like it because I've been shooting it since then, and it's the only one that I own. I'm fortunate that my gunsmith who maintains it is an accomplished AR mechanic.

Shabazz
08-30-12, 16:43
I was a small child at the end of the vietnam war. Small enough that the M16 is not nostalgic for me. But the musty smell of WW2 surplus stuff at the Army & Navy store, that is another story.

eboggs
10-02-12, 16:20
I used to have a nice Retro A1, I built with an original Colt upper and Colt barrel, everything was original "Retro" other than some of the internals my BCG and lower (Nodak A1)

I REGRET selling that AR more than any other, it just had the perfect feel (and i diggg the retro look)

man.....maybe its time to build another :fie:

Only Con was, I am left handed and I would get smacked in the cheek by the brass! left welts.

peabody
10-02-12, 21:08
in 1976 uncle handed me a m16... loved the bloody thing.

years later ive scrounged up an old SP~1
and with the help of no dak spud.and fulton armory
ive built a 603 and then a 604 slickside.
im now working on a slickside IDF kiss...carbine.
nothing ..and i mean nothing ..or any rifle I've ever used ..feels as good
as my slickside.
peabody

JJay03
11-10-12, 08:41
Retro is just about remembering the old times not too much else to it. I still like to play old Atari games from time to time.

hk_shootr
11-10-12, 08:52
Ok,......go back to enjoying your Atari! :haha:

JJay03
11-10-12, 08:54
Cmon you dont know what your missing pitfall is awesome.

hk_shootr
11-10-12, 10:51
Retro is where it's at!


http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c341/faawrenchbndr/Colt%20Sporter%20carbine/dfc9e3eb.jpg

Dustin Cantrell
11-10-12, 21:57
Hi guys (first message :D)

why retro? because it looks so special forces... :confused::confused:

Today we need to attach to our rifles flashlights, dots, grips, infrared lasers... Troy just released a GPS stock for AR15... and a railed coffee machine is on its way :jester:

Soldiers needs tons of equipments... But give a SF operator a knife and he won't need anything else.
So that it is, for me... retro rifles look SF.

Nowdays I can barely imagine someone in the jungle without a camelback... so maximum respect!!

Wasn't there a rifle many moons ago that had a coffee grinder in the butt stock? :D

SteveS
11-11-12, 17:42
If you understand nostalgia then you know why anyone wants something that is not as good as it's modern equivalent. Hell I’ve been thinking of selling my 2005 Corvette to buy a 1979 Ferrari 308 with 4 Webers.

I bought my first AR when I was 23 before the Clinton ban, it was an "A1" with A2 plastic, so two years ago I bought vintage A1 platic that still had the white basic training number on it just like the one I carried in basic in 1988.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e130/toddgriffin00/001-7.jpg
A bit off topic but a dear friend of mine has a 328 and 2 years ago I did the cam belts, checked the valves replaced the A/c lines that ran from the engine compartment to the condenser and replaced all the fuel and assorted "rubber" lines. It is a beautiful car but you don't want to work on it!!!

Doc. Holiday
11-12-12, 09:13
Wasn't there a rifle many moons ago that had a coffee grinder in the butt stock? :D

Yup, and based off Will's comment, I believe he said it was the worst cup of coffee he's ever had. (I used to like that show, wish they made better products... :( )

Firecop203
11-14-12, 10:28
For me, I want to build one like what I was issued and carried while I was in the USAF Security Police.

I was issued an M-16. Serial #300889. It was the 20" pencil barrel slick side, triangle handguards, no forward assist.

In addition, I was issued a S&W Model 15 .38 special revolver. Plain blue finish. (can't remember the serial number on that one)

usmcvet
11-14-12, 15:03
Retro is where it's at!


http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c341/faawrenchbndr/Colt%20Sporter%20carbine/dfc9e3eb.jpg

Awesome looking rifle.


For me, I want to build one like what I was issued and carried while I was in the USAF Security Police.

I was issued an M-16. Serial #300889. It was the 20" pencil barrel slick side, triangle handguards, no forward assist.

In addition, I was issued a S&W Model 15 .38 special revolver. Plain blue finish. (can't remember the serial number on that one)

That's what it's about for me too. What I carried. I'm on the left. With my M16 A2 and I'm bad I don't freaking remember the serial number. :nono: I do remember my first few duty pistols, PZ345 and BAR305, both G23's, I still own PZ345.
http://m4carbine.net/picture.php?albumid=304&pictureid=1523

CALTRAP
12-03-12, 19:14
I was issued a M16A1 in 1984.Then in 1986 we got the M16A2.
I wanted the A1 back.Then I wanted both.Its like candy one of each please.

Blayglock
12-03-12, 19:37
I want. build one for fun and plinking. That's about it.

SilverTongueDevil
12-04-12, 13:38
Because when I see one I think back to the days when girls wore them jeans that zipped up front to back and the hallways of the school smelled like aqua hairspray...
The OG black rifle barely dressed and ready to rock just like girls of the eighties

Trueno
12-04-12, 20:02
I major in AK's and wanted an AR to compliment a certain Chinese AK that I own. The "right" AR finally came along, it's in kit form so like some of the AK's I've built...I'll sort've "know" the gun when finished.

Also, I built some fairly cool display bases for some of my Combloc AK's, they resemble the geographic shape of the country of origin of each rifle.
Fast forward to the reason for my post...I wanted to do a North Vietnam display base for that Chinese AK and a South Vietnam base for an AR. Only problem was I didn't have an SP1 or anything until a buddy dumped a kit in my lap.

After checking stamps and casting marks etc, best I can tell is the parts appear to resemble a 1972 A1. Need to get the (repro) barrel parked and score a NDS lower and I'll be on my way to having my retro AR.

Once done, I hope to display the AR and the AK on their respective bases, the bases intersecting at the DMZ.

t

Dravur
12-12-12, 17:01
Trueno, I would love to see those bases and rifles. Post up some pics when you get it done

gojira70
12-18-12, 06:53
Retros are cool!

rstang99
02-11-13, 17:12
For me, I want to build one like what I was issued and carried while I was in the USAF Security Police.

I was issued an M-16. Serial #300889. It was the 20" pencil barrel slick side, triangle handguards, no forward assist.



I don't know what era AF you are but you are talking about a model 604. I am prior Air Force too and would love to build one myself.

Frosty23
02-12-13, 14:05
For me, I want to build one like what I was issued and carried while I was in the USAF Security Police.

I was issued an M-16. Serial #300889. It was the 20" pencil barrel slick side, triangle handguards, no forward assist.

In addition, I was issued a S&W Model 15 .38 special revolver. Plain blue finish. (can't remember the serial number on that one)

I was in the USAF Security Police (Law Enforecement Specialist) 1989-1990 Andersen AFB, Guam, I carried the exact same weapons M-16A1 and a .38 revolver, during certain specific times I carried the CAR-15 at Andersen.

During 1990-1993 I was stationed at Moody AFB, Georgia and carried the M-16A1 and a Berreta 92F. I hated the .38 but the M-16 was cool.

rstang99
02-13-13, 09:44
Here is some information on the Air Force model 604 M16: http://bpullignwolnet.dotster.com/retroblackrifle/ModGde/RflGde/604.html

K_K
03-23-13, 15:12
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q236/USMCGruntUSAFCATM/Firearms/Rifles/DCP_1825.jpg

A most beautiful collection of history.

Firecop203
04-10-13, 09:41
I don't know what era AF you are but you are talking about a model 604. I am prior Air Force too and would love to build one myself.

I carried that rifle from 1981-1994.

Even further retro, we had several of the old 40mm grenade launchers on some of the M-16's. They were the XM-148 model. We also had two M-60's that we got to play with from time to time.

We had just started getting all kinds of cool stuff as I was leaving.