View Full Version : Hornady Critical Defense Ammo
platoonDaddy
05-28-11, 19:24
Just received the 2011 Product Catalog from Hornady and checked out their "Critical Defense" Ammunition. In 9mm they only offer (at least in this catalog) 115gr FTX. Knowing nothing about FTX, was curious why such a light weight for self-defense.
Following asking myself question, I located the following link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iD6Re_Gwcwc
Guns-up.50
05-28-11, 20:05
They do offer the ammo in all popular cal now i believe. But you dont need a super heavy round to get good results. If you're just drilling holes then yes drill big ones but, newer lighter faster ammo hits really hard. Corbon has a 90gr +p round at 1500fps that hits with 449 lbs of ke. (The formula is MV*MV* bullet wt in gr / a constant 450240)
They do offer the ammo in all popular cal now i believe. But you dont need a super heavy round to get good results. If you're just drilling holes then yes drill big ones but, newer lighter faster ammo hits really hard. Corbon has a 90gr +p round at 1500fps that hits with 449 lbs of ke. (The formula is MV*MV* bullet wt in gr / a constant 450240)
This Corbon load does not penetrate the required depths or perform well against common barriers. It is therefor not a round that I'd take into harm's way.
This Corbon load does not penetrate the required depths or perform well against common barriers. It is therefor not a round that I'd take into harm's way.
Home defense loads do not require great penetration. A huge energy dump on a target with none wasted on anything behind the target is preferred. Light fast loads are also more likely to fragment and penetrate fewer layers of sheetrock walls.
A huge energy dump on a target with none wasted on anything behind the target is preferred. Light fast loads are also more likely to fragment and penetrate fewer layers of sheetrock walls.
With all due respect Sarge, you need to study this subject more.
"Energy dump" means absolutely nothing when it comes to wound ballistics.
No pistol caliber JHP is going to fragment in sheetrock.
Bullets that have trouble getting through layers of sheetrock are worthless when it comes to disabling bad guys.
Guns-up.50
05-29-11, 00:28
I was just stating that a round doesnt need to be heavy to do the job. Personally i use 124 +p or 147
I was just stating that a round doesnt need to be heavy to do the job. Personally i use 124 +p or 147
The 90 grain round you referenced does not "do the job".
Does the anatomy and physiology of criminal aggressors change when they enter a home to commit a violent offense against innocent citizens?
why such a light weight for self-defense.
I have the same question and doing some liberal guessing:
Because of older bullet designs, it used to be you need big and fast bullets to penetrate and expand.
Yesterday's modern bullets have improved the bullet designs where fast and big are no longer necessary for penetration and expansion. But there's still the potential issue of a bullet not expanding or separating.
Today's modern design??? Perhaps Hornady can design a bullet that penetrates and expands with smaller bullet at lower velocity. Maybe the tip insert allows better penetration, and less clogging, and therefore expansion. Maybe.
Or perhaps the new belief is that modern bullets have not been consistent loading, ejecting, penetrating, and expanding.
Or maybe it is just marketing to people in a new demographic. It seems the major trend is ergonomics, conveniences, and making it easier.
Jake
I found this interesting in ref to the critical defense.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/2006/04/main.htm
Thanks for the article link. My top concern is heavy clothing, not windshields or sheet metal. I've been concerned about bullet expansion reliability of hollow point, and getting clogged with clothing (denim, canvas, leather). Not sure how often bullet expansion fails??
Reliable bullet expansion is Critical Defense's main feature to me.
Also, there's advantage in having a lighter bullet in some small, light, pocket pistols.
I figure I'd have a huge tactical advantage pinning the bad guy behind cover. I could try and hit the bad guy behind cover, but that would waste bullets and reduce my advantage.
For home defense, it wouldn't be a pistol (house alarm, video surveillance, and a shotgun).
Jake
I found this interesting in ref to the critical defense.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/2006/04/main.htm
Interesting.
According to Steve Johnson, Hornady Marketing Communications Manager, the Critical Defense line of handgun ammunition:
"...is not designed to shoot through glass, is not designed to shoot through a car door, and is not designed to shoot through a wall. If you have to shoot through something like that in a personal defense situation you're probably going to jail."
Another example of why in most cases, marketing people shouldn't be the ones commenting on a company's products.
I figure I'd have a huge tactical advantage pinning the bad guy behind cover. I could try and hit the bad guy behind cover, but that would waste bullets and reduce my advantage.
Shooting the bad guy behind cover could possibly give you more of a "tactical advantage".
Does Hornady guarantee bad guys will cease firing once they get behind cover? That they will not shoot at anyone from inside a vehicle? Won't shoot from behind interior wall/corner? Won't shoot from behind a window or door?
A light and fast bullet may perform well through light barriers if it is a BONDED bullet, but I don't think any of Hornady's bullets are bonded.
DocGKR has it right: the civilian needs the same ammunition proven effective for law enforcement. Different encounters but likely very similar needs to penetrate and expand through barriers and clothing. Not as often as law enforcement but it is that one SD situation where you may very well need the most capability to save a life.
Energy numbers are not important, in service pistol calibers penetration and expansion are what's important. Service pistol rounds dumping energy into a target is not what you measure a good service round with.
Oh and here's a post by Doc where the Hornady CD, gasp, failed to expand. So although Hornady says they expand 100% of the time that's not quite true.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=25310&page=2
I found this interesting in ref to the critical defense.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/2006/04/main.htm
Nice to see you over here pisc1024. Much more to be gained here than "elsewhere". ;)
Thanks for the link.
Guns-up.50
05-30-11, 08:24
The 90 grain round you referenced does not "do the job".
Well i wouldnt stand infront of one..
Well i wouldnt stand infront of one..
Your logic is seriously flawed.
I don't like standing in front of Sim rounds, and I wouldn't by choice stand in front of a marble from a slingshot, a .22 short, or a BB from a Daisy Red Ryder, but I wouldn't use any of them for self defense either.
The 90gr Cor Bon 9mm loading is as bad as the Glaser type bullets in poor penetration and high fragmentation.
In fact it displays worse wound ballistic potential than the old 110gr +P+ .38 loads, and note that these are not highly thought of at all;
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=77335
Does Hornady guarantee bad guys will cease firing once they get behind cover? That they will not shoot at anyone from inside a vehicle? Won't shoot from behind interior wall/corner? Won't shoot from behind a window or door?
A light and fast bullet may perform well through light barriers if it is a BONDED bullet, but I don't think any of Hornady's bullets are bonded.
DocGKR has it right: the civilian needs the same ammunition proven effective for law enforcement. Different encounters but likely very similar needs to penetrate and expand through barriers and clothing. Not as often as law enforcement but it is that one SD situation where you may very well need the most capability to save a life.
No, but apparently they GUARANTEE you'll go to jail if you do have to defend yourself in that situation.
Guns-up.50
05-30-11, 21:37
Your logic is seriously flawed.
I don't like standing in front of Sim rounds, and I wouldn't by choice stand in front of a marble from a slingshot, a .22 short, or a BB from a Daisy Red Ryder, but I wouldn't use any of them for self defense either.
The 90gr Cor Bon 9mm loading is as bad as the Glaser type bullets in poor penetration and high fragmentation.
In fact it displays worse wound ballistic potential than the old 110gr +P+ .38 loads, and note that these are not highly thought of at all;
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=77335
Gottcha, Im not defending the 90 grain ammo for any personal reasons. Merely making an observation that other ammo companies make pd ammo of light weights. I also wouldnt care to be shot with the above. If the light weight ammo preforms so poorley why do large companies still produce and why do shooters buy? (not being a smart ass; I dont know as stated before i use heavier ammo myself)
Gottcha, Im not defending the 90 grain ammo for any personal reasons. Merely making an observation that other ammo companies make pd ammo of light weights. I also wouldnt care to be shot with the above. If the light weight ammo preforms so poorley why do large companies still produce and why do shooters buy? (not being a smart ass; I dont know as stated before i use heavier ammo myself)
The 1990's was characterized by the prevalence of low weight / high velocity JHP ammunition due to "research" performed by charlatans such as Marshall and Sanow. Their data (which was mostly fabricated) was based on the likelihood of particular bullets incapacitating an aggressor with 1 shot. Their recommendations favored light and fast bullets across the board. Their duplicity was actually quit ingenious since it was based on the importance of kinetic energy - a notion that many people who passed 8th grade physics could conceptually grasp.
Although their studies have been debunked with modern terminal ballistics research, it has been difficult to redirect the uneducated shooting masses. Ammunition makers continue to produce these crap rounds because there is still an uneducated public that thinks the formula for kinetic energy is the most important factor in wound ballistics. A similar phenomenon is seen by gun makers who tout .45 ACP guns with 3-4" barrels even though the round is well outside of its performance envelope when exiting these barrels.
If the light weight ammo preforms so poorley why do large companies still produce and why do shooters buy? (not being a smart ass; I dont know as stated before i use heavier ammo myself)
All products exist because people buy them. Doesn't matter if they suck or not.
And just for historical accuracy, Cor Bon or any other company did not invent the light-fast bullet thing in the '90s, Super Vel had this going in the '60s. The screaming fast lightweight bullets were very popular for quite a long time.
Gottcha, Im not defending the 90 grain ammo for any personal reasons. Merely making an observation that other ammo companies make pd ammo of light weights. I also wouldnt care to be shot with the above. If the light weight ammo preforms so poorley why do large companies still produce and why do shooters buy? (not being a smart ass; I dont know as stated before i use heavier ammo myself)
Because lots of uneducated buyers still want to believe that lightweight hyper velocity pistol bullets, that over-expand and under-penetrate, are somehow a good thing. As long as that's true, there will be companies making product for them.
The fact that several famous gun magazine and discredited book writers have made a good deal of money touting those kinds of rounds hasn't helped.
All products exist because people buy them. Doesn't matter if they suck or not.
And just for historical accuracy, Cor Bon or any other company did not invent the light-fast bullet thing in the '90s, Super Vel had this going in the '60s. The screaming fast lightweight bullets were very popular for quite a long time.
And don't forget the "computer man" LEAA studies that told us a 110 grain .38 +P+ was superior to a .45, etc.
I have often wondered how many cops died because of that disaster.
Gottcha, Im not defending the 90 grain ammo for any personal reasons. Merely making an observation that other ammo companies make pd ammo of light weights. I also wouldnt care to be shot with the above. If the light weight ammo preforms so poorley why do large companies still produce and why do shooters buy? (not being a smart ass; I dont know as stated before i use heavier ammo myself)
There are also those who believe that just because they live in an apartment/town home they should be armed with an underperforming bullet due to over penetration fears. Ridiculous in my opinion, but they are out there.
Because the companies know there are ill informed consumers that think foot pounds of energy is the end all to a good self defense round.
Guns-up.50
05-31-11, 10:28
Thanks all
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