Foray into the land of bolt guns

[BrigandTwoFour]

Hey all!

I've decided to take a trip into the land of bolt rifles. While I love my JAE-stocked M1A, it is quite the beast to carry and just won't do for hunting on foot. Also, the guys at my local range don't let me use it for their long range matches because it's a semi.

My budget for getting started is about $1,000. Including glass, if reasonable. Purpose will be more of a general use build, for both matches (out to about 600 yards) and some hunting. So I know I'll have to find a balance between weight/stability for laying prone and being light enough to not be too cumbersome when walking for hours on end under the Montana big sky.

I've done a lot of research up front, and have more or less narrowed it down to two options: Howa 1500, or Tikka T3. The particular flavor would be 20" heavy barrel profile, but that is totally negotiable.

I was pretty much dead set on Remington 700, but the more reading I did on snipers hide, the less work it seemed the Howa or Tikka would need to be great shooters. If I end up really liking bolt guns, I'll look into a Remmy pattern rifle later on for a more custom build (GAP, Surgeon, etc).

So, my questions:

1. Do you have any other recommendations that would be great for my use? I've got experience shooting, but I don't think I will be anywhere near as accurate as these rifles from the get go, but I would like room to grow and know it's not the equipment causing the problem.

2. When it comes to manufacturing, I've heard great things about both the Howa and the Tikka. However, they each seem to have their quirks. The Howa is apparently known for some poor barrel crowning, while the Tikka has a rather unorthodox recoil lug arrangement that worries me for later on (have heard that the aluminum plate eventually fails). What do you all think is more important? Should I just not worry about these at all?

I've heard plenty of times to buy a cheaper rifle and put great glass on it rather than buy a better rifle and skimp on the glass- I think the Howa lends itself to that. I also like the one-piece bolt in the Howa. However, I have heard great things about the trigger and action in the Tikka.

Aftermarket support for both is, for my purposes, about the same. Neither has as much as Remington, but they both have what counts for me (good stocks, good mounts, good triggers).

If I'm totally off in left field, feel free to correct me. I really want to start off on the right path here, and I don't necessarily know what I don't know.

edit:

I should probably mention that I'm going with a .308
That is pretty much non-negotiable as I like to keep calibers consolidated and I think .308 would work great for my intended uses. If I need something heavier for some big game, I can always borrow.

[tuck]

If you decide to go with a Howa, check with Mel on sniper central, he builds an entry level tactical rifle package around the Howa 1500. He puts out a pretty solid package for the money and I wouldn't hesitate to pick one up if I were in the market.

http://www.snipercentral.com/scriflepackagedetails.phtml?packageid=1

[orkan]

Whoever you've been talking to or reading from is filling you full of shit when it comes to rem700's.

I've had a LOT of rem700 SPS tactical's in my hands and they all shot sub-moa. ALL of them. For a $550-$650 rifle, if that is not performing, I don't know what the hell is.

I sure as hell wouldn't take a tikka or howa over any of them.

Bone stock rem700 PSS seems to be good enough for damn near every police agency in the country, and the old M24 and M40 war horses also wear the remington badge.

So please do yourself a favor, and dispense with the thought that the rem700 somehow won't do what you want it to do. At least with the 700, the aftermarket support is GARGANTUAN, and the list of smiths that will work on them is endless. Let that sink in. It means the rifle you buy now can be modified to do damn near anything you would want. Not true for howa or tikka.

Some of the most accurate rifles on this planet have been created on trued rem700 actions with custom barrels. FACT. So the idea that they will be somehow inadequate for a new shooter based on what someone at snipershide said almost sends me into a fit of rage due to how ridiculous that sounds.

So please, use your head and a little common sense when reading things and weigh the facts, not just people's opinions.

In a nutshell, the rem700 sps AAC SD or SPS tactical 308 rifles, both in 308... would be my first choices. The AAC edition is 1:10 twist and is threaded for muzzle devices. This package can be had anywhere for $650 and is the absolute best starter long range rifle there is. Put a new stock on it, get it bedded, and put a timney 510 trigger on it and it will probably shoot better than you and any 10 people you shoot with.

[Lucky Strike]

I just got done going through the same thing although my needs for the rifle were more 65/35 for hunting vs. range style shooting.

Within the last couple weeks I bought a Tikka T3, DNZ one piece mount and Nikon Monarch 4-16x scope. The stock of the tikka is currently at CDI Precision getting inletted for their bottom metal.

My budget was about $1000 for everything as well but I'm currently around $1100 and change into it. I guess I could have stayed in budget as my plan was to wait till after hunting season to get the bottom metal but I'm just too impatient and sent off the stock the day after getting the gun.

Main reason i wanted the bottom metal was so that I can eventually get a Manners hunting stock for it. But that'll probably come next year as it'll take about that long to save up my pocket change for the $400 or whatever price tag. After getting the stock I doubt I'll do much else to it.....the Sako barrels are supposed to be really good and the trigger felt great to me.

I went with the Tikka because of their reputation to be excellent shooters right out of the box with a variety of loads.

[BrigandTwoFour]

Tuck, I looked into the SC package from Mel long ago. And while it looks great, I would rather start at a lower level and take it a different direction. I'm looking more into the Wild Dog stocks than the B&C he uses, and it would just be simpler to start there rather than take off the B&C and try to sell it.

Orkan,

I'm not getting into a pissing match over Remington. I know damn well that there are thousands of people who are very happy to start with a Rem 700 and never have an issue with it. I'm just choosing not to. You yourself just said that they are fantastic shooters AFTER you get their actions trued, replace the trigger, and put on a better stock. From the smiths I've talked to, the Tikkas are practically trued out of the box and already have great triggers- I just don't like the Tikka recoil lug design. I've been at plate matches with my M1A and watched another shooter struggling with their Rem 700 bolt handle, and then watched the handle just fall off after tapping it with a block of wood to un-stick it. If I ever do go with Rem 700 pattern, then it's going to be a custom job (the old military rifles were also very customized, and not what you buy off the shelf).

Lucky,

Thanks for the input. CDI bottom metal is on my list no matter what direction I go, as they make it for all the rifles I've been looking into. The stock is still a toss up between Manners, Wild Dog, and RCS II (made for Tikkas and Howas and allows them to use AICS skins).

[a1fabweld]

You can't go wrong with a Remington bolt gun. There is more aftermarket support for that platform than any other bolt action. Therefore upgrading is easy & more cost effective as well.

I started with a Rem 700 Tactical with a Falcon 4-14x44 FFP scope. It worked very well & ran me about $1k total. When I started shooting competatively, I upgraded to a Rem 5R in an AI chassis w/ a Nightforce 5.5-22x56. It shoots the lights out.

[marco.g]

You need to figure out how far you want to modify the rifle if at all. If youre just looking to throw a new stock on it then you should be ok with Tikka and Howa. When you start looking into things like action work, new barrels etc... then you need to find a competent gunsmith that works on these rifles.

[BrigandTwoFour]

For a first rifle, I'm honestly not looking to do much work. New stock, bedding jobs, maybe trigger (if needed). Rebarreling down the line when needed. I really want to focus on learning to use the glass well and really working on fundamentals.

Fancy smithing work will be saved for when I decide if I really want to pursue the long range game and need a rifle that caters to it (GAP, Surgeon, etc). Heavy weight target guns work great for that, but this one also has to be usable for hunting, and I don't want to carry a heavy target rifle around the mountains all day (or else I'd just use my M1A).

What do you all think of the 20" heavy barrel profile? Is that a workable balance between weight and stability?

[NavyDavy55]

Here's some advice I got and accepted when I asked a question about changing the stock on my Rem 700 SPS tactical.

I too am new to precision shooting.


Take it from someone who spent money a B&C stock. Just shoot the snot out of your rifle with the Hogue. Save your $300.

The B&C is a "nicer" stock than the plastic Hogue, but it won't make a noticeable difference in the way your rifle shoots, functions, or feels.

After getting some face time with your Hogue, let ergonomics and function drive your stock selection... not just urge to replace original equipment.

Eventually, when you end up spending $1000 on a Manners or McMillan and Badger Ordnance bottom metal, you'll be glad you didn't waste $300 on a B&C that isn't much of an "upgrade" from your Hogue.

[marco.g]

I have a rem 700 sps Varmint that was cut down to 20 inches from 26. This made it much more "handy" in the field. It also sits in a mcmillan A3 stock which is a bit bulky but the ergos (for me) are incredible and make up for the weight and bulk. I havnt taken it hunting yet but hopefully this fall will change that. If doing it all over again i may have gone with a mcmillan HTG or A1-3, but the reality is that the rifle is used more for shooting from static positions than hunting. The use of the rifle will dictate what goes on it.


What do you all think of the 20" heavy barrel profile? Is that a workable balance between weight and stability?

There is always debate on barrel length, but 20" is definitely an accepted standard for the .308 cartridge

[JStor]

Depending on your budget and how heavy a rifle you want, don't rule out the Winchester 70 Heavy Varmint model, also referred to as the "Stealth."

The versions from the 1990s are the ones I would look for, and the heavy 26 inch barrel can be cut to the desired length. These came with HS Precision fiberglass stocks of the Winchester Marksman design, a very comfortable stock. They aren't a McMillan, but they work well. These short action Model 70s had the push feed bolt and shoot quite accurately.

[carbinero]

If you decide to go with a Howa, check with Mel on sniper central, he builds an entry level tactical rifle package around the Howa 1500. He puts out a pretty solid package for the money and I wouldn't hesitate to pick one up if I were in the market.

http://www.snipercentral.com/scriflepackagedetails.phtml?packageid=1

If I were you, I'd order one of these, cut to 20" and be happy.

But I'm not you, since I'd buy a 700...so there ya go!

[orkan]

You yourself just said that they are fantastic shooters AFTER you get their actions trued, replace the trigger, and put on a better stock.

Wow... seems like your reading skills could use a little work.

All the SPS tacticals I've had my hands on shot sub moa BARE BONES STOCK with no modifications. Any mods simply made them better.

Anyway, sounds like you sure know a lot about remingtons... what for never having owned one and all. :)

Good luck.

[Gutshot John]

I always find the psychology behind these threads interesting. Though the content itself almost certainly devolves into a pissing match between two parties.

Invariably the asker wants someone to justify the choices they've already made or rather than actually have to make an arbitrary/irrelevant/personal choice wants to have someone make the decisions for them.

Of course if someone offers an opinion, experience (or evidence) contradictory to the choice that's been made (one in which they've made some amount of emotional investment) they get a bit bent out of shape.

If they've already done research on sniper's hide, what do they think they're going to get here that hasn't already been said?

The distinctions between this stock and that stock, or this action or that action are completely personal taste and ultimately irrelevant. For under $1000 they're also distinctions without any real difference.

Why ask at all? You've done your research Just make the choice, take it out and shoot, and live your life free of the opinions of others. Who cares what people think? You're not going to glean some mystical wisdom that's going to make one iota of difference in what kind of shooter you become.

[orkan]

Invariably the asker wants someone to justify the choices they've already made or rather than actually have to make an arbitrary/irrelevant/personal choice wants to have someone make the decisions for them.

Very good observation. Very accurate, in my opinion. When someone with zero experience tries to talk as an authority because of what he read, it's tough to draw any other conclusion.

Whats worse, is the asker somehow feels more intelligent because he's coming to "ask the pro's," yet won't take advice given by people with volumes more experience if it is contrary to the decision he's already made.

I disagree on one part john, and that is the decisions made below $1000 not mattering. Buying the correct rifle ensures the ability to transform it into something more desirable if one so chooses later. Beyond that, you are right... someone looking to get a $1000 rifle complete with optics isn't going to have the ability to determine what helps or hurts him for quite some time anyway.

[Powder_Burn]

My budget for getting started is about $1,000. Including glass, if reasonable.


I've done a lot of research up front, and have more or less narrowed it down to two options: Howa 1500, or Tikka T3.
I would suggest the Howa over the Tikka as it is a better value. The Howa 1500 is a less refined copy of a pre-72 Sako L579 action that uses a forged/machined action and a one piece bolt. Timney makes a trigger and many aftermarket stocks are available. For such a tight budget, a used Weatherby sub-MOA varmint might be a decent compromise as it's made by Howa. Some shipped with low end B&C stocks that are likely better than the typical junk factory stocks out there. If it needs a crown, it is a $75 job. Also budget $3 for Krylon to conceal the obscene NASCAR inspired roll marks.

Remington certainly puts a lot of value on the table since upgrade options and the knowledge base are endless. They also have flaws like any other platform. I have seen bolt handles break off 700's and my local shop was shipped SPS's with off center bores. A cheap 700 has a different level of QC than an M24. Practical accuracy with any of these rifles should not be difficult to attain.

[BrigandTwoFour]

I always find the psychology behind these threads interesting. Though the content itself almost certainly devolves into a pissing match between two parties.

Invariably the asker wants someone to justify the choices they've already made or rather than actually have to make an arbitrary/irrelevant/personal choice wants to have someone make the decisions for them.

Of course if someone offers an opinion, experience (or evidence) contradictory to the choice that's been made (one in which they've made some amount of emotional investment) they get a bit bent out of shape.

Clearly I've stepped on somebody's toes by merely suggesting that someone might have a different opinion about a particular firearm.

I'm not looking for validation about a decision, or for anyone to make it for me. I'm looking for information based on personal experience. Right at the beginning, I asked if anyone has other options I could look at besides the two listed, only one alternative was offered, and then I was promptly burned at the stake for mentioning things I've seen that bring that gun into question.

Some people just seem more interested in validating their own decisions by pushing it on others, just like the rest of these boards when it comes to BCM/Noveske/LMT/Colt. That's fine, but I don't buy into it. That kind of brand fanaticism is little better than gun-shop speculation.

The bottom line here is that I did a lot of reading, came up with a couple ideas, and asked for pros and cons between them from people who have actually handled them. I figured that it was better to go that route than post yet another "I want a budget build, what's the best bolt gun for under $1K?" thread that you all love so much.


Why ask at all? You've done your research Just make the choice, take it out and shoot, and live your life free of the opinions of others. Who cares what people think? You're not going to glean some mystical wisdom that's going to make one iota of difference in what kind of shooter you become.

Personally, I'd rather ask now before I buy it instead of buying it and finding out that it doesn't work as advertised. How many threads are there in these forums of people who went out and put together an AR from pile of parts and thought it would be amazing, only to find out it can't cycle more than five rounds without grinding to a halt? Opinions are nice, but I am really looking for personal experience with them.

Perhaps I should just walk away because I'm not willing to spend 4K on the rifle and another 3K on an optic yet, is that what you are expecting of everyone who ventures into this forum?

Anyway, no more pissing matches. It's not helpful.

Orkan, thank you for the input. I looked at a lot of SPS tacticals, I even went out and handled an AAC-SD today on your recommendation. I'm sure that it would work just fine, even though I noticed the bolt was definitely not as smooth as other ones I handled. Have you handled/shot any other rifles that I could look at that compare to the Remingtons? What issues have you seen come up with the Rem 700s that might bite a new bolt shooter in the ass?

For those than own the Tikka, have you noticed any issues with the little aluminum stock-mounted recoil lug? My biggest concern with the Tikka is the long-term durability of that configuration (and the potential difficulty with bedding).

[Gutshot John]

Allow me to clarify, its not that they dont matter in terms of actual performance, its just that performance differences will be negligible for the novice shooter. A better rifle is a better rifle, but it's skill and experience that makes a bigger difference.

What matters more than rifle/accessory choice is acquiring the necessary skill set. FNH, Tikka, Howa, Remington or Winchester...these choices matter little as they all make comparable rifles for the stated price range.

A bigger question is whether the OP is willing to invest the same amount of money/time into getting trained or getting out and shooting. Given everything, I think the choice is more appealing than the reality. Like a bad romantic comedy that loses its edge once the protagonists finally shtuup, once the choice has been made, the allure will wear off.

[Gutshot John]

I'm not looking for validation about a decision, or for anyone to make it for me. I'm looking for information based on personal experience.

Than my suggestion to you is forget this nonsense as everyone is simply going to suggest the choice that they've already made. There is no way for you to validate which choice is better for you simply because you lack the experience. Many of the guy's on sniper's hide know their shit, many don't, but determining who does and who doesn't becomes an exercise in frustration, more importantly what works for one may not work for you.

If you think there is any real difference between a Tikka, Howa and Remington, you're kidding yourself.

Go take a precision shooting class, preferably one that will lend you one of their rifles, get some trigger time and figure out what works for you (more importantly what doesn't) BEFORE you invest your $1K.

[NUTT]

I have 2 bolt action centerfire rifles: A Winchester M70 30.06 that I hunt with and a Remington 700 5R that I use for precision shooting.

The Win is a lighter weight, wood stocked hunting rifle and needed some smith work (bed, float, true, trigger & crown), but now shoots under 1/2 inch. The Rem shoots under 1/2 inch straight out of the box, although it is a heavy barrel target rifle.

The Win target (precision, sniper, tactical whatever you'd like to call it) rifles I've handled and seen on the line all shoot great. So do all of the Rem target rifles I've seen. Some have had work, most are straight out of the box.

This includes the AAC SD and the SPS Tactical mentioned above. Both are good shooters capable of 1,000 yards right out of the box.

Regardless of your rifle choice, I'd say take a look at the SWFA SS scopes. You can get a fixed 10, 16 or 20 power for $300. The glass is clear enough to shoot 1,000 yards and repeatable. If you have mirage to deal with often, I'd recommend staying away from the 20 because you can't dial down.

For the budget, it is hard to go wrong if you can live with a fixed power scope. I'm just now upgrading my 10x and have used it in a precision rifle class. It performed great and I'll be keeping it for a spare.