View Full Version : Should I replace my EOTech with Aimpoint? Advise pls..
I have an EOtech 517 mounted on my AR-15 with 16" barrel, I like the fast acquisition on close quarter but i realized that it is a little hard for me to focus on a "longer" distance target mainly I think its because of the large 65 MOA ring around that tiny 1 MOA dot.. I've read that having just a 2 MOA red dot is better on a "longer" distance shooting.. I havr been thinking of selling my EOTech and replace it with Aimpoint CompML3 with 2 MOA dot.. any advice? Pls help...
Thanks in advance..
I'd see if you can get with someone in your area to try out an Aimpoint with a 2 moa before you make a change blindly.
I have a cheaper Truglo red dot sight mounted on my mossy 500 and i can deffinately tell that i can acquire the target better and faster on longer range
Have you had any issues with your eotech or are you making the switch just because? Have you tried turning down the brightness for the longer range shots?
I'd see if you can get with someone in your area to try out an Aimpoint with a 2 moa before you make a change blindly.
Great advice. I ended up having to use an XPS and H-1 back to back to help me decide which worked better for me.
Have you had any issues with your eotech or are you making the switch just because? Have you tried turning down the brightness for the longer range shots?
Dont really have an issue with it, its just when shooting at farther distance it seems like my eyes are taking longer to focus on target because it gets distracted by the large ring on EOtech
Thomas M-4
06-01-11, 13:36
I find also that the eotech ring is obscuring at longer range targets.
It works fine at shorter ranges. I have a ML2 2moa aimpoint on my carbine. Eotech makes a version with out the ring just a plain dot. I have wondered if eotech will ever make a version that you can swap between reticules.
I have both...
for me, I break the EO vs AP issue down into "defensive" vs "offensive" use of the weapon.
because the AP has a longer battery life and does not shut itself off after a period of time - allowing me to just leave it constantly on and change out the batteries every year - it is my choice for a "defensive/ bump-in-the-night" optic. I have both 2 and 4 MOA dots and don't really see much difference however I recommend the smaller dot if you have a magnifier mounted behind it.
now, if I have time to acquire my weapon, turn on and adjust the brightness of the sight, and adjust it periodically during use so it doesn't shut itself off just when I was expecting it to be on, then I enjoy the reticle of the Eotech better than a simple dot.
for rapid COM shooting out to about 20-25yds, the 65MOA circle works real well to bracket the chest area on silhouettes and IDPA type targets. at 10 yards it's a 6.5" circle with a dot in the middle - whats not to like?..
further than this, I switch to the 1MOA dot. this is fine enough for more precision shooting in close and works great with a magnifier behind it for even longer distance.
my perfect optic would combine the reticle of the EO with the batt life and operation of the AP but I suspect those two things are mutually exclusive...
I have both...
for me, I break the EO vs AP issue down into "defensive" vs "offensive" use of the weapon.
because the AP has a longer battery life and does not shut itself off after a period of time - allowing me to just leave it constantly on and change out the batteries every year - it is my choice for a "defensive/ bump-in-the-night" optic. I have both 2 and 4 MOA dots and don't really see much difference however I recommend the smaller dot if you have a magnifier mounted behind it.
now, if I have time to acquire my weapon, turn on and adjust the brightness of the sight, and adjust it periodically during use so it doesn't shut itself off just when I was expecting it to be on, then I enjoy the reticle of the Eotech better than a simple dot.
for rapid COM shooting out to about 20-25yds, the 65MOA circle works real well to bracket the chest area on silhouettes and IDPA type targets. at 10 yards it's a 6.5" circle with a dot in the middle - whats not to like?..
further than this, I switch to the 1MOA dot. this is fine enough for more precision shooting in close and works great with a magnifier behind it for even longer distance.
my perfect optic would combine the reticle of the EO with the batt life and operation of the AP but I suspect those two things are mutually exclusive...
I pretty much agree with all of this. I have an Eotech 553 and switched it out for the Aimpoint T1. The main reason for this was weight reduction and battery life. It's a shame AP Would do a retical similar to the Eotech 65/1 MOA dot. That was my main reason for getting the Eotech in the first place.
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You might look at the new Aimpoint PRO. It is available in 2MOA for around $400.
Just a thought...
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IDK, I have a 552 and a ML3 and I still like the Eotech better because of the field of view. Also my Aimpoint reticule seems to reflect of the sides giving me a 30mm ring sometimes and that's annoying. But in the Aimpoint's defense, I have not had much time behind it yet.
christcorp
06-01-11, 16:56
I don't own an Aimpoint, but i've shot a few of them. I've also shot a number of eotechs. i only recently bought an eotech. I like it better for the AR because it provides faster target acquisition. At least in my opinion. Then again, i never considered the ar15/m16 to be a sniper rifle designed to shoot 300-500 yards. Not saying that it can't, just that I've never considered it to be made for that purpose. If I wanted it to do that, i'd have a variable rifle scope on it. Besides for fun, I consider it designed for shooting people up to around 100 yards. Red-Dot non-magnification sights are nicer than iron sights because they are faster at acquiring your target. But for 300+ yards; it's just not the weapon i would be using. So for me; the eotech acquires targets faster than the aimpoint; therefor i have the eotech.
I have shot both many times, and I like the field of view and the reticle better with the Eotech. That being said, I wish the Eotech had the same battery life of the AP. That would be the best combo IMO.
christcorp
06-01-11, 16:58
I have shot both many times, and I like the field of view and the reticle better with the Eotech. That being said, I wish the Eotech had the same battery life of the AP. That would be the best combo IMO.
With average usuage, the eotech battery will last at least 1 year. I think that's good enough. At least for me.
Just my opinion...I would keep the EOTech and use the money you would have spent on an Aimpoint to attend a Vickers/Magpul Dynamics type class. On the other hand, you could stock up on more ammo. Never a bad idea these days.
I love my EOTech 552. The plain dots (like on a friend's Aimpoint) just don't work as fast or as well for me. WB
Have you had any issues with your eotech or are you making the switch just because? Have you tried turning down the brightness for the longer range shots?
Best piece of advice here. First thing I do when I turn my XPS2 on is crank back the brightness about 3 clicks (as long as it's not extremely sunny). Really helps a lot....
Ra2bach - The "offensive" and "defensive" remarks about AP vs EO are dead on. I've always thought that. You just worded it perfectly. Probably why many of the "go fast" guys still choose EOtechs - despite many combat advantages of AimPoint.
Now if only AimPoint and EOTech had a love baby. And not the "4moa dot with crappy battery life" kind. The other kind. But holographics and battery life don't really go together.
Thanks for the replies guys.. I've decided to keep my EOTech 517.. I still like the quick aquisition of it and I just did a longer distance aim out of my bedroom window (with my AR-15 unloaded of course) and realized that by lowering the power down, i was able to focus on the target faster because the big 65 MOA ring is not glowing so bright..
Thanks again guys
Ra2bach - The "offensive" and "defensive" remarks about AP vs EO are dead on. I've always thought that. You just worded it perfectly. Probably why many of the "go fast" guys still choose EOtechs - despite many combat advantages of AimPoint.
Now if only AimPoint and EOTech had a love baby. And not the "4moa dot with crappy battery life" kind. The other kind. But holographics and battery life don't really go together.
yeah, if someone told me, "there's some guys hanging out down at the end of the street. I want you to go down there and shoot them", I'd probably use an Eotech.
however, if he told me, "stay here and watch this intersection. sooner or later somebody's gonna want to come down here and shoot you", I'd have an Aimpoint... :D
christcorp
06-02-11, 15:32
yeah, if someone told me, "there's some guys hanging out down at the end of the street. I want you to go down there and shoot them", I'd probably use an Eotech.
however, if he told me, "stay here and watch this intersection. sooner or later somebody's gonna want to come down here and shoot you", I'd have an Aimpoint... :D
Is that strictly because of the "Battery"? Meaning, leaving it on 24/7? I can understand simply having a preference for one over the other; but not that the Aimpoint is somehow superior to the eotech. I don't think it's superior. If I had the rifle on a bipod, trying to take out a target 300 yards away, I'd prefer a rifle scope. However; a 3x multiplier for the eotech would work fine. But I could see the aimpoint preference. But for using the AR for what it was designed for, I don't the the battery life is significant at all. The 8 hour timer on an eotech resets back to 8 hrs each time you press any button on the eotech. So, unless you were frozen in place for 8 hours and couldn't move a muscle, I'd say that battery life isn't a factor.
Thomas M-4
06-02-11, 16:48
Some of the responses are getting kind of silly :rolleyes:
My observations on both optics.
1 Eotech has a good FOV
2 The 65 moa ring works good at 30 meters and closer range's with COM hits on targets its intuitive and fast. At longer ranges I personally don't like the 65moa ring.
If I were kicking in doors and going on raids pulling bad guys out of buildings that were planned before time. The eotech is great the battery life and the automatic 8 hr cut off would not be a concern.
The aimpoint on the other hand gets treated almost like Irons you turn it on and set it then you forget about it. It can be thrown in the corner for a month, or a year for all it matters its still on 24hrs 365 days actually its longer than that but you get the point.
Notice how the Swedish AK4B has the Iron sights chopped off and now the aimpoint is the only aiming device. How many battery powered RDS can claim this. http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a193/Tigerhund/Hrna.jpg
Last thing the aimpoint works on a far greater range of rifles. The eotech was primarily designed for the AR-15 every other rifle that doesn't share the same tall sight arrangement the eotech starts getting awkward.
Is that strictly because of the "Battery"? Meaning, leaving it on 24/7? I can understand simply having a preference for one over the other; but not that the Aimpoint is somehow superior to the eotech. I don't think it's superior. If I had the rifle on a bipod, trying to take out a target 300 yards away, I'd prefer a rifle scope. However; a 3x multiplier for the eotech would work fine. But I could see the aimpoint preference. But for using the AR for what it was designed for, I don't the the battery life is significant at all. The 8 hour timer on an eotech resets back to 8 hrs each time you press any button on the eotech. So, unless you were frozen in place for 8 hours and couldn't move a muscle, I'd say that battery life isn't a factor.
yes. because of the battery life. you turn an Aimpoint on, and leave it on, and barring mechanical failure of some kind, it's gonna STILL be on until I change them every couple of years. I know these things have stupid battery life but nonetheless, I have come to distrust manufacturers claims about anything mechanical. that's why I change batts EVERY year. that's well within the lowest minimum design parameters. it's cheap insurance, what can it hurt?
not so much with the Eotech. I don't care what any manufacturer promises as far as battery life - that's under ideal conditions - and doesn't take into consideration the possibility of variables like the battery's age, starting condition, temperature, etc. etc....
also, as far as the 8-hour timer shutting the Eotech off, I have picked mine up after lunch at an all-day training class and it had shut itself off. I know for a fact that I didn't turn it off before I set it down and I don't expect someone else was handling my gun without me knowing it. again, I don't trust myself to what some manufacturer claims their product will do under ideal conditions. life isn't ideal...
however, I do prefer the reticle of the Eotech as using the 65MOA circle is blazing fast for COM hits under 20 yards and there is the 1MOA dot if I want pinpoint accuracy. and as you mention, a magnifier works great with the 1MOA dot
it's all about personal choice. this is how I make mine...
With average usuage, the eotech battery will last at least 1 year. I think that's good enough. At least for me.
you miss a very important point here - an Eotech's batteries will NOT last a year in continuous use. an Aimpoint's will (or several times longer).
what you claim is not continuous use... you turn the Eotech on when you want to use it and turn it off (or let it turn itself off) when you put it away. however, before it can be used again, you have to turn it on and adjust the brightness and that is something I don't want to have to mess with when the S hits the F.
using an Aimpoint in the manner you infer above, it should get 10-15-20 years battery life, but what's your point? we're not talking about saving pennies on batteries here, we're talking about a weapon being immediately ready for use when you need it most...
Some of the responses are getting kind of silly :rolleyes:
My observations on both optics.
1 Eotech has a grood FOV
2 The 65 moa ring works good at 30 meters and closer range's with COM hits on targets its intuitive and fast. At longer ranges I personally don't like the 65moa ring.
If I were kicking in doors and going on raids pulling bad guys out of buildings that were planned before time. The eotech is great the battery life and the automatic 8 hr cut off would not be a concern.
The aimpoint on the other hand gets treated almost like Irons you turn it on and set it then you forget about it. It can be thrown in the corner for a month, or a year for all it matters its still on 24hrs 365 days actually its longer than that but you get the point.
Notice how the Swedish AK4B has the Iron sights chopped off and now the aimpoint is the only aiming device. How many battery powered RDS can claim this. http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a193/Tigerhund/Hrna.jpg
Last thing the aimpoint works on a far greater range of rifles. The eotech was primarily designed for the AR-15 every other rifle that doesn't share the same tall sight arrangement the eotech starts getting awkward.
gotta love those Swedes!
yeah, if someone told me, "there's some guys hanging out down at the end of the street. I want you to go down there and shoot them", I'd probably use an Eotech.
however, if he told me, "stay here and watch this intersection. sooner or later somebody's gonna want to come down here and shoot you", I'd have an Aimpoint... :D
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That is funny...
If I was trying to razzle-dazzle some kids on a campout, I'd show them the EOTech...
If I was trying to protect those kids, I have an Aimpoint.
I have only tried twice to look through a mounted EOTech that different guys wanted to show me at the range...both times the batteries were dead.
But maybe it's just me...
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With average usuage, the eotech battery will last at least 1 year. I think that's good enough. At least for me.
You'd be hard pressed to keep an EOtech alive for a year. There's been a lot of reports of them dying over long periods of time while OFF.
I'm not hating on EOtech by any means. L3 chose to use holographics for a reason. Battery life wasn't one of them. There's always a trade off.
My XPS2 gets nowhere NEAR the advertised battery life, and as I mentioned I run it on a lower power. The automatic shutoff is good and bad. It keeps the optic from going TU if you forget to turn it off. But if someone kicks open my bedroom door in the middle of the night.... It's the wrong time to wonder what time you turned it on or punched a button last.
The blinking warning helps... but again not if your asleep. It depends on your uses. Many people agree the 65moa ring is superior. If battery life or constant on isnt a concern.... rock on.
There's a lot of bearded men doing harsh things to bad people in the sandbox that love the EOtech. But that kind of plays into the "offensive" approach to EOtech. The people who deploy their EOtechs in combat tell me they Switch their batteries once a week or two to be safe. If the 65 moa ring helps you get a split second quicker reaction in a life or death situation... It's worth replacing the batteries.
From a Homeowner role protecting his family from bumps in the night....it's hard to beat an AimPoint. Given my experience with my XPS, I think AP still has the edge on durability and reliability.
One thing you don't hear much about in favor of the EOtech - but is a feature I love - is how the reticle appears to "float" out past your muzzle. New owners often say the reticle looks "cracked" or "fuzzy". When you focus on the target, it comes together just enough without being over powering on brightness. However, I find the improved FOV argument to be kind of gimmicky. With either EO or AP, I never really notice the tubes.
christcorp
06-02-11, 21:35
you miss a very important point here - an Eotech's batteries will NOT last a year in continuous use. an Aimpoint's will (or several times longer).
what you claim is not continuous use... you turn the Eotech on when you want to use it and turn it off (or let it turn itself off) when you put it away. however, before it can be used again, you have to turn it on and adjust the brightness and that is something I don't want to have to mess with when the S hits the F.
using an Aimpoint in the manner you infer above, it should get 10-15-20 years battery life, but what's your point? we're not talking about saving pennies on batteries here, we're talking about a weapon being immediately ready for use when you need it most...
I don't think I'm really missing the point. I just don't happen to agree that it's significant. There is no way that you're going to be using the eotech and your rifle 24/7. Not even 8/7. Probably closer to 1/7, and that's pushing it. So yes, I believe the battery will last a year. Heck, even if I chose to change it out every 6 months, that would be fine. We both agree that the cost of batteries is definitely not an issue.
I also don't agree that turning it on again and adjusting the brightness is an issue. Even with the airmpoint; unless you can guarantee the time of day; indoor/outdoor; time of year; etc... that you're going to need it; there's just as much of a chance that you're going to have to set the brightness on the aimpoint to. As for turning on the eotech, I don't think that's an issue. I can't envision the scenario where you 1) Pick up the AR in your house; 2) Immediately aim it at your target; 3) And pull the trigger. I personally think that the 1/4th of a second it takes to turn it on isn't an issue.
Me personally; if I was going to use the AR in the house at night; I would use my laser. I have the laser sighted in at 15 yards. I won't be trying to look through sights in those conditions.
This is not a Aimpoint vs Eotech disagreement. I think they are both fantastic. I think they both will suffice and accomplish the mission. It's a matter of personal preference. Nothing more. I just don't happen to think battery life or having to hit a button to turn the sight on is an issue. Not in a civilian environment. We're not going on a 5 day patrol where tensions are high 24/7. That's my only disagreement. Battery life and turning the eotech on. Everything else between the two are outstanding. Just personal preference.
One thing you don't hear much about in favor of the EOtech - but is a feature I love - is how the reticle appears to "float" out past your muzzle.
+1 on the 20 yard perceived reticule image.
Also on the hybrid 65.1 reticule speed I find it very fast & intuitive. Also, the 1 MOA dot is actually smaller (website sez 1/3 MOA), and I found it quite usable at 200 yards.
Hard to argue with the Aimpoint batt life. EOTech has improved their life, and I wonder how current the conventional wisdom is. (Thought it will be hard to ever match the AP)
I did not find the 552 difficult to turn on even in the dark in a hurry, so I'd be OK for home defense usage as long as the batts don't crap out in under 6 mths when off. (Supposedly lithiums absolutely do not)
One thing I don't understand is the weight comments.... EOTech weight includes the mount, and the current generation (XPS, etc) are roughly 8 oz, and even the 55x are 11.9oz. With the exception of the latest super light aimpoints, the sight alone weight was 8 oz, and the mounts averaged another 4 oz, pushing a COMPM4 with mount to 12 oz, same for COMPM2.
While the old AA battery (552?) EOTECH's probably did weigh more with batteries than the AP with their lighter batts, the later EOTECH's really close that gap with the N & DL versions. The sight & mount weight is very comparable now, as is the batteries.
I've not seen a weight on the PRO, but nothing makes me think it will be lighter. But does look like an ideal setup. Once I can go hands on with one I may give it a try.
Thomas M-4
06-02-11, 21:57
christcorp I also don't agree that turning it on again and adjusting the brightness is an issue. Even with the airmpoint; unless you can guarantee the time of day; indoor/outdoor; time of year; etc... that you're going to need it; there's just as much of a chance that you're going to have to set the brightness on the aimpoint to. As for turning on the eotech, I don't think that's an issue. I can't envision the scenario where you 1) Pick up the AR in your house; 2) Immediately aim it at your target; 3) And pull the trigger. I personally think that the 1/4th of a second it takes to turn it on isn't an issue.
Not every home invasion starts with a window breaking giving you time to react. In-fact if a dirtbag has to resort to breaking a window telegraphing his intent he or they probably isn't a seasoned veteran. There is a very good chance that you might not have time or the for thought to even get the sight turned on. I can really see this happening in the middle of the night in a dark room just being awakened from sleep.
christcorp
06-02-11, 22:16
Not every home invasion starts with a window breaking giving you time to react. In-fact if a dirtbag has to resort to breaking a window telegraphing his intent he or they probably isn't a seasoned veteran. There is a very good chance that you might not have time or the for thought to even get the sight turned on. I can really see this happening in the middle of the night in a dark room just being awakened from sleep.
I can respect that. But this is where I "Normally" piss someone off when I say:
"My AR is NOT my PRIMARY Home Defense weapon at 2am."
Sorry; just isn't. An AR, or similar carbine, definitely has it's place for home defense. It's just not my primary weapon. When I am woken up at 2am, and I'm half asleep, and my brain is racing 20 different directions trying to figure out what's going on; I do NOT want to have to think about my weapon whatsoever. I don't want to think about safeties, magazines, jams, sights, etc... My 2am, woken up in the middle of the night, weapon is: My S&W Model 13-1 357 magnum. I can have complete confidence in it. EMPHASIS: I'm talking about 2am; woken up from a dead sleep; NOT BEING 100% coherent; etc... Whole other option at 8pm while I'm watching tv. I don't keep my AR in the bedroom next to my bed.
And maybe that's why I disagree with the eotech vs aimpoint. I have a totally different perspective on home defense. I've been shooting and training with weapons for more than 30 years. And there's plenty of others on this forum with as much, or more training. But for me, I have different weapons for different scenarios. I am fortunate. Not everyone can afford as many guns as I have. I have different weapons for different reasons. So when I am using my AR for whatever defensive reason I choose for it; battery life and turning on the eotech, or other sight that I have on my other AR, is not an issue. It's not going to be my 2am half asleep gun; so it doesn't matter.
And that is where I think so many of the topics turn into disagreements. We have to all realize that our purpose for a particular scenario or weapon, isn't the only option. And we shouldn't think that what or how we would do it, is the only right way. A person's AR doesn't HAVE to be their primary home defense weapon. Only the person living there can decide what is the best. Anyone saying tht they are wrong and should be using something else, is the one who is wrong. So when we talk about guns, sights, or whatever; I think the most important question to ask when a person wants opinions is: "What are you going to use it for". For the person having their AR next to their bed at night, for whatever reason; maybe the always on Aimpoint is a better choice. For the person who will use their AR in a more controlled environment, where they have time on their side, always on with a 25 year battery life, might not be as important.
Thomas M-4
06-02-11, 22:27
Fair enough its your choice and its good to have choices .:cool:
I used to be an EOtech fanboy until I purchased the Aimpoint Pro. I had the original EOtech 511 and went to the single dot XPS so Ive had my fill of the different models. I know alot of guys say that the Aimpoint doesnt have the same heads up or field of view. I thought the same until I realized the Aimpoint has roughly the same field of view WHEN YOU SHOOT WITH BOTH EYES OPEN. In my opinion, the EOtech only has one minor thing going for it, and that is a non-tinted view but am aware why Aimpoint has chosen to go that route.
I'm with christcorp, most home invasions are going to be dealt with using a handgun that is ON (or very nearby) the person being invaded. The carbine is great for fending off LA riot style looters or trouble you expect to be coming. 2 AM in your bedroom as a grab it and go? Not so much.
I don't think I'm really missing the point. I just don't happen to agree that it's significant. There is no way that you're going to be using the eotech and your rifle 24/7. Not even 8/7. Probably closer to 1/7, and that's pushing it. So yes, I believe the battery will last a year. Heck, even if I chose to change it out every 6 months, that would be fine. We both agree that the cost of batteries is definitely not an issue.
I also don't agree that turning it on again and adjusting the brightness is an issue. Even with the airmpoint; unless you can guarantee the time of day; indoor/outdoor; time of year; etc... that you're going to need it; there's just as much of a chance that you're going to have to set the brightness on the aimpoint to. As for turning on the eotech, I don't think that's an issue. I can't envision the scenario where you 1) Pick up the AR in your house; 2) Immediately aim it at your target; 3) And pull the trigger. I personally think that the 1/4th of a second it takes to turn it on isn't an issue.
Me personally; if I was going to use the AR in the house at night; I would use my laser. I have the laser sighted in at 15 yards. I won't be trying to look through sights in those conditions.
This is not a Aimpoint vs Eotech disagreement. I think they are both fantastic. I think they both will suffice and accomplish the mission. It's a matter of personal preference. Nothing more. I just don't happen to think battery life or having to hit a button to turn the sight on is an issue. Not in a civilian environment. We're not going on a 5 day patrol where tensions are high 24/7. That's my only disagreement. Battery life and turning the eotech on. Everything else between the two are outstanding. Just personal preference.
again, it's not how long the stupid batteries last - it's having your weapon sight already on when you pick it up.
an Aimpoint you can turn it on and leave on for 2, 3, 4, even 5 years - don't turn it off at all! - and it will still be on and ready for use. you can't do that with Eotech...
btw, you've never waken up with some criminal in your bedroom, have you?
I have...
christcorp
06-03-11, 20:16
again, it's not how long the stupid batteries last - it's having it on immediately when you go to use it.
you've never waken up and had someone at your bedroom door, have you?
I have...
And again; if I'm woken up at 2am, I'm not going to be grabbing my AR. 1) I don't keep my AR along side of my bed. 2) I have been woken up at 2am, but not at my bedroom door. In that "State of mind", I want the simplest weapon that my brain can operate. Something I don't need to worry about safeties, magazines, physical failures, sights, etc... For me, my 2am weapon is my 357 magnum revolver. "Point and Click".
And again, that what I prefer for my "Woken up at 2am gun". My AR is for when I am in more control of the situation. But if you keep your AR right there next to you all the time; and you believe that you are just as alert after being woken up, as you are when wide awake; then definitely more power to you. Use your AR. I'll use my AR for scenarios like the riots of the 60's I lived through back in New Jersey. There's definitely a lot of excellent defensive scenarios for the AR15. I just don't believe 2am, after being woken up, is one of them. Therefor, the scenarios that I would use the AR in, a sight that is on 24/7 is not required. I will have the 1/4th of a second needed to turn it on. Again; I would never use the AR as my 2am, woken up by an intruder, weapon.
Failure2Stop
06-03-11, 20:38
A 6-shooter as a primary defensive arm for when in an incoherent daze at 3:30AM?
You must be very confident in your marksmanship and stress handling in conditions that you don't think you will even be able to reload a firearm in.
Really isn't here or there, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but those that have to put their reputations at stake with their advice recommend something entirely different.
I'm not telling you that you are wrong, but you might want to do some research before planting your flag on this one.
Thomas M-4
06-03-11, 20:47
My point with a long arm is having 3 points of contact I feel more secure not having it wrestled away from me. If it comes down to it I would have no compunction to muzzle strike with it or try my damn-est to wrap it around some ones skull :jester:if it no go bang, bang when I need it to.
christcorp
06-03-11, 21:12
A 6-shooter as a primary defensive arm for when in an incoherent daze at 3:30AM?
You must be very confident in your marksmanship and stress handling in conditions that you don't think you will even be able to reload a firearm in.
Really isn't here or there, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but those that have to put their reputations at stake with their advice recommend something entirely different.
I'm not telling you that you are wrong, but you might want to do some research before planting your flag on this one.
If you think you are more proficient in the "3:30am Incoherent Daze" with an AR, then by all means use it. I don't need to do any more research. Not for me. I have 50+ years of experience that I AM WILLING to risk my life on. A break in at 3am is NOT EXPECTING any form of resistance. Not if it's a burglary. Now if the person has a vendetta against you, and their soul purpose is to kill you, that's definitely a problem that needs to be addressed. I don't have those enemies coming for me. So in a typical breaking and entering, unless cornered, any confrontation is going to result in the criminal leaving as soon as possible. So I'm not worried about reloading. I also don't shoot blindly hoping to "Spray and Pray".
But my main point is that our opinions are based off of our perceptions. If you perceive that your AR is going to be your primary weapon for the more likely home break in at 2am, and you feel comfortable using it in that "Incoherent State"; then having an ALWAYS ON Red-Dot type sight would seem more practical. If like me, you don't believe that a break in at 2am is going to become a "Gun Fight" where 20+ rounds is being exchanged; and chances are, that a handgun will be the more practical weapon for "THAT PARTICULAR SCENARIO"; then an ALWAYS ON Red-Dot type sight isn't as important. It's all a matter of perspective. Not saying you are wrong either. Just that you might want to realize that not everyone will share you perspective. That your perspective, even if correct FOR YOU, doesn't mean it's right for everyone else. So I have absolutely no problem planting this flag. You have your own flag. You're free to plant it where you'd like. But perspective, experiences, expectations, etc... are individual. You can't apply your scenario to everyone else.
But again; we have delved into a very finite scenario. A scenario that's actually MORE PRACTICAL than most of the scenarios presented. Most are filled with paranoia, conspiracy theories, or fictitious adventures. For all of those, different weapons, sights, and strategies, definitely need to be considered. But for the more practical 2am home robbery, a totally different perspective should be looked at.
If you think you are more proficient in the "3:30am Incoherent Daze" with an AR, then by all means use it. I don't need to do any more research. Not for me. I have 50+ years of experience that I AM WILLING to risk my life on. A break in at 3am is NOT EXPECTING any form of resistance...
I just don't have the words anymore. this bullshit you wrote above tells me all I need to know about your "experience"...
christcorp
06-03-11, 21:39
I just don't have the words anymore. this bullshit you wrote above tells me all I need to know about your "experience"...
I am SO PROUD of you. You know exactly what to expect. I am envious. Again; you can use your AR at 2am. I'm not going to. What's your problem? If it isn't your way, it's wrong? You believe that people plan on breaking in; coming to find you; kill you; then steel your stuff. That's fine. You can believe that. You can prepare for that. That's your perspective. And personally; I don't give a shit what you THINK you know about me. I will take care of me and my family; you take care of yours.
I am SO PROUD of you. You know exactly what to expect. I am envious. Again; you can use your AR at 2am. I'm not going to. What's your problem? If it isn't your way, it's wrong? You believe that people plan on breaking in; coming to find you; kill you; then steel your stuff. That's fine. You can believe that. You can prepare for that. That's your perspective. And personally; I don't give a shit what you THINK you know about me. I will take care of me and my family; you take care of yours.
Are you here on M4C solely to tell us we're wrong? I can't think of a single thread you've participated in where you've added anything of value and usually it devolves into a locked thread.
And again; if I'm woken up at 2am, I'm not going to be grabbing my AR. 1) I don't keep my AR along side of my bed. 2) I have been woken up at 2am, but not at my bedroom door. In that "State of mind", I want the simplest weapon that my brain can operate. Something I don't need to worry about safeties, magazines, physical failures, sights, etc... For me, my 2am weapon is my 357 magnum revolver. "Point and Click".
And again, that what I prefer for my "Woken up at 2am gun". My AR is for when I am in more control of the situation. But if you keep your AR right there next to you all the time; and you believe that you are just as alert after being woken up, as you are when wide awake; then definitely more power to you. Use your AR. I'll use my AR for scenarios like the riots of the 60's I lived through back in New Jersey. There's definitely a lot of excellent defensive scenarios for the AR15. I just don't believe 2am, after being woken up, is one of them. Therefor, the scenarios that I would use the AR in, a sight that is on 24/7 is not required. I will have the 1/4th of a second needed to turn it on. Again; I would never use the AR as my 2am, woken up by an intruder, weapon.
seriously?!? then what the **** is your debate here?
because the discussion was about a piece of equipment for immediate response to a threat.
and you were trying to offer your "insight" into that for awhile, until it became obvious that you were clueless as to what that discussion was about. so now you're backpedaling, though it appears you don't have much more of a grip on this one either...
christcorp
06-03-11, 21:54
Are you here on M4C solely to tell us we're wrong? I can't think of a single thread you've participated in where you've added anything of value and usually it devolves into a locked thread.
You're kidding, right? I have specifically said numerous times that people's perspectives here AREN'T WRONG. But rather that it's THEIR perspective. Unique to them and their situation. I only respond as you're describing, to those who believe that anyone who has a different perspective then theirs, must be wrong. Maybe someone like ra2bach lives in a town full of psychos and they are all intent on killing everyone. So for him, his perspective is definitely right. "FOR HIM". But to push that on others is wrong.
OP
Keeping the eotech makes good sense.
Thomas M-4
06-03-11, 22:06
I would hate to only have a 6 shooter handy with these guys coming through the doors and windows. One of them is toting a AR if they had any sense he could have out gunned the home owner that as far as I can tell is only armed with a pistol.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuhKCiY-lu0&NR=1
I am SO PROUD of you. You know exactly what to expect. I am envious. Again; you can use your AR at 2am. I'm not going to. What's your problem? If it isn't your way, it's wrong? You believe that people plan on breaking in; coming to find you; kill you; then steel your stuff. That's fine. You can believe that. You can prepare for that. That's your perspective. And personally; I don't give a shit what you THINK you know about me. I will take care of me and my family; you take care of yours.
no, I don't "believe" what people who come into your home will do. I know...
I've actually had people in my home at 3:19am (according to when the police received the call). and they weren't coming in to quietly steal the VCR and the flat screen and then tiptoe out. one came straight through the house and into the bedroom. that's a hell of an awakening I can assure you...
so let me ask, have you ever had someone break into your home while you were there sleeping?
christcorp
06-03-11, 22:10
I would hate to only have a 6 shooter handy with these guys coming through the doors and windows. One of them is toting a AR if they had any sense he could have out gunned the home owner that as far as I can tell is only armed with a pistol.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuhKCiY-lu0&NR=1
Excellent point. But I think it also made my point that they weren't expecting resistance. They sure left in a hurry.
OP
Keeping the eotech makes good sense.
LOL. goodnight...
OP,
I much prefer the Aim Point to the Eotech, however the only experience I've had with the Eotech was years ago with a Holosight using the same reticle type. I currently have a AP ML2 on a M&P15-22 and a AP M4s on a 6920.
With that being said I'm near completion on a BCM carbine and am seriously considering the new Eotech XPS series as I do find some appeal in this new system. Although I certainly would not replace my M4s I am looking forward to giving the XPS a whirl.
Templar
Are you here on M4C solely to tell us we're wrong? I can't think of a single thread you've participated in where you've added anything of value and usually it devolves into a locked thread.
Amen.
christcorp
06-03-11, 22:22
.......so let me ask, have you ever had someone break into your home while you were there sleeping?
Not break in. But "Trying" to, yes. My waking up and the dog sudden bark, startled him away. But again, I don't think that a particular strategy is necessarily the only one. You have your strategy for such scenarios. That's cool. And based on your neighborhood, crime rate, social environment, etc... your strategy may be perfect for you. And if I still lived in the New Jersey / New York City area, I might feel the same way. But not everyone lives in those environments. I happen to live in an area where more than 85% of all homes have guns. Where break in type crimes are very low, because even the bad guys know they will be shot. And our laws totally allow us to shoot to kill. We don't have to TRY and hide. We don't have to call for help. We are actually legally allowed to pursue the bad guy in our house and shoot to kill. So again; it's a matter of perspective. Neither is right or wrong for everyone.
And that's where I TRIED to bring this back to the original topic. If the individual wanting to know about swapping an eotech for an aimpoint doesn't have the same level of threat that apparently you do, such things as an "always on" sight might not be so important to him. If always on was so important to everyone, then Eotech and other similar companies would either not be in business, or they'd all have always on sights because that's what EVERYONE would want. Apparently, that's not what everyone wants. So the right answer to the original poster, which has been brought up before, has to be based on what they plan on using it for. I simply stated that I wouldn't have my AR sitting next to my bed for home defense. Therefor, an always on sight like the aimpoint is not a deciding factor. Just one person's perspective. You're the one trying to say that I'm wrong, because I don't perceive it like you do. Sorry, but not every community has the same style or level of crime that you happen to fear.
LOL. goodnight...
I really wanted to say sooo much more but wanted to stay on topic. If he likes the eotech and it works for him he should keep it. The battery issue is the
main reason and my eyes don't work well with them. AimPoint M4's and SBR's for me please!
Not break in. But "Trying" to, yes. My waking up and the dog sudden bark, startled him away. But again, I don't think that a particular strategy is necessarily the only one. You have your strategy for such scenarios. That's cool. And based on your neighborhood, crime rate, social environment, etc... your strategy may be perfect for you. And if I still lived in the New Jersey / New York City area, I might feel the same way. But not everyone lives in those environments. I happen to live in an area where more than 85% of all homes have guns. Where break in type crimes are very low, because even the bad guys know they will be shot. And our laws totally allow us to shoot to kill. We don't have to TRY and hide. We don't have to call for help. We are actually legally allowed to pursue the bad guy in our house and shoot to kill. So again; it's a matter of perspective. Neither is right or wrong for everyone.
And that's where I TRIED to bring this back to the original topic. If the individual wanting to know about swapping an eotech for an aimpoint doesn't have the same level of threat that apparently you do, such things as an "always on" sight might not be so important to him. If always on was so important to everyone, then Eotech and other similar companies would either not be in business, or they'd all have always on sights because that's what EVERYONE would want. Apparently, that's not what everyone wants. So the right answer to the original poster, which has been brought up before, has to be based on what they plan on using it for. I simply stated that I wouldn't have my AR sitting next to my bed for home defense. Therefor, an always on sight like the aimpoint is not a deciding factor. Just one person's perspective. You're the one trying to say that I'm wrong, because I don't perceive it like you do. Sorry, but not every community has the same style or level of crime that you happen to fear.
:suicide:
Shoot to kill? "Here's your sign!" You should really stop typing. Chase them in your house. I'd suggest you stop talking about things you obviously know little about. You're going to jam yourself up.
Thomas M-4
06-03-11, 22:36
Excellent point. But I think it also made my point that they weren't expecting resistance. They sure left in a hurry.
True but you are rolling the dice it could have very easily gone the other way all that dirtbag would have had to do would be to let loose with that AR and he could have overwhelm the home owner. For some reason they were armed for a fight but they were not wanting one.
I don't want to give them that choice or chance if I am able to help it.
To the OP sorry for the thread drift.
christcorp
06-03-11, 22:46
Shoot to kill? "Here's your sign!" You should really stop typing. Chase them in your house. I'd suggest you stop talking about things you obviously know little about. You're going to jam yourself up.
I never said that is what I'd do. I'm simply telling you what the law in our state is. Our state legislature recently reworded it. Originally, it was argued that if someone broke in, that you were SUPPOSE to try and get away. That caused a lot of problems in court with homeowners protecting their property. The wording changed so that you don't have to retreat at all.
I'm not jamming myself. Look up 2010 Wyoming legislature gun laws. You'll see exactly what I'm saying. Bottom line; when more than 85% of homeowners have guns; criminals are less likely to break in if they think you're home.
Here, I'll save you time: Also; we just approved PERMITLESS Conceal Carry in our state also. Both laws were approved and signed into law by the governor. Both go into effect July 1st.
http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Read.aspx?id=6265
Thomas M-4
06-03-11, 22:49
One last thing this is it. christcorp I have been a victim of a home invasion it wasn't at 2 am but a 3pm :eek: My fist instinct wasn't to grab a pistol but a SLR 95 unfortunately at that period of time I kept all my weapons unloaded and the the magazines unloaded [never more].
And that shit bag only had a 25 acp of course I didn't know that at the time but it wouldn't have mattered to my choice in a weapon. When you are scared shitless you want the baddest mother****er you can lay your hands on you don't think about it. Or at least I didn't I just adapted and over came.
christcorp
06-03-11, 22:54
One last thing this is it. christcorp I have been a victim of a home invasion it wasn't at 2 am but a 3pm :eek: My fist instinct wasn't to grab a pistol but a SLR 95 unfortunately at that period of time I kept all my weapons unloaded and the the magazines unloaded [never more].
And that shit bag only had a 25 acp of course I didn't know that at the time but it wouldn't have mattered to my choice in a weapon. When you are scared shitless you want the baddest mother****er you can lay your hands on you don't think about it. Or at least I didn't I just adapted and over came.
I think that's a great example. I agree with you 100%. And I would probably grab my AR, AK, Saiga, or even my 870. My only comment about using the pistol, was the 2am scenario. FOR ME!!! At 2am, being woken up, my brain not fully functional, I personally prefer a weapon that requires the least amount of brain cells to operate. I prefer my 357 magnum. I have crimson on them, and I am ok with that. But at 3pm; totally different world. I agree with you.
I read your choice of words "pursue" as chase.
I am familiar with the Castle Doctrine if that is what you're talking about.
"Pursue" and "Shoot to kill" will get you jammed up and badly. You might find yourself broke in jail or both.
You can use deadly force to protect yourself or another person from serious bodily harm or death. "Pursuing" someone and then "shooting to kill" will and should get your ass thrown in prison.
christcorp
06-03-11, 23:00
I read your choice of words "pursue" as chase.
I am familiar with the Castle Doctrine if that is what you're talking about.
"Pursue" and "Shoot to kill" will get you jammed up and badly. You might find yourself broke in jail or both.
You can use deadly force to protect yourself or another person from serious bodily harm or death. "Pursuing" someone and then "shooting to kill" will and should get your ass thrown in prison.
I agree. Personally; I don't go looking for trouble. Simply saying that our laws allow us to decide for ourselves. If you're in our house, and you're armed; and we perceive you as posing a threat; you're ALLOWED BY LAW TO DIE. It's pretty simple.
This goes back now to the original poster's question, and my comments. Different perspectives will result in different opinions. When a community is well armed, and break in type crimes are very low, certain requirements that one person might have for their sights or even their weapon, might not be the same as someone else from a different community with different perspectives. But for some reason, my perspective and opinion is considered wrong. I simply don't think that once strategy/scenario is applicable to everyone. I think each is unique. And therefor, the OP needs to base his decision on his use of the weapon. Not ours.
Whether an area has guns isn't necessarily related to a low crime rate. There have been strings of gun owners being shot at the range WHILE FIRING at a target, just to have their Suppressors and other NFA items stolen from their corpse.
I live in a good neighborhood, but it's less then 10 miles from Detroit. Bad things happen to good people in good neighborhoods everyday. There's something to be said about the victim getting "comfortable" - and I think it applies here. I'm sorry to speak so bluntly, bit I have a degree in Criminal Justice / Pre Law - and about nothing you have said ChristCorp is supported by fact.
Just because someone is breaking in to steal something doesn't mean they don't intend to harm you. A couple years ago here in Detroit a group of armed individuals broke into a home, killed the adults, then killed four children. They ended up stealing some TVs and 4 marijuana plants from the victims' basement. When the attackers were caught, it turned out to be a totally random home invasion. They didn't know the attackers.
Point being - if someone has the balls to sneak in (as you've said has happened to you in your very plush and peaceful town) then you don't know what else they are capable of.
Everyone here has listed the Pros and Cons of AP vs EO. No one is pissing in your Cheerios. EOtech sells plenty of sights to people who know their limitations - I am one of them. But in a homeowner defense role, it just plain ISN'T as good as an AimPoint. And a wheelgun isn't nearly as good as an AR. Ever. That's why they are "secondary" weapons.
You've been lucky to have people FAR more knowledgable then me reply to you and offer some advice. Given some of your statements, I'm surprised they have been as nice as they've been. It's a sign of good character to listen to those who have more experience.
This is the second thread I've seen you mention you have tons of guns because you can buy whatever you want. That's great. You sound blessed. Just keep in mind owning a piano doesn't make you Mozart.
I continue to run an XPS2 - but I know it's limitations. Its strange to fantasize the ideal scenario to justify a piece of equipment being completely flawless. Life is far too random and no material object is perfect.
Just keep in mind many posting here know a whole Hell of a lot about these types of things.
To the OP, it sounds like turning down the brightness helped you out. Great to hear, brother. A few clicks makes all the difference for me.
Well I'm not trying to get into a pissing contest, this thread has obviously gotten a little crazy.
I'll tell you my opinions from an Infantry guy who uses his rifle in Afghanistan. I've ran all of the 3 major optics at one time or another: Acog, Aimpoint and Eotechs.
I'm personally running an Eotech right now on my M4 sitting beside me as I type this. I have an Eotech at home w/ my home gun.
I've been seriously considering getting an Aimpoint T-1 or H-1, especially after seeing that thing getting knocked around in Larry Vickers DDm4 Torture Test video.
There's been a few people talk about needing a red dot on, at anytime, in the night, whatever. If that's the case then there really isn't even room for you to argue needing an Eotech, sorry, it's not for you. Or just utilize your irons, front and rear, or a light. In a home invasion, unless you’re a millionaire in a mansion you are going to be shooting in such confined spaces looking over the front sight post will result in rounds on target if you have even a privates level of proficiency.
But back on topic, the thing I'm worried about in picking up a T-1 (I don't know anyone w/ one) is the fact that it's a 4MOA dot. I love my Eotechs 1 MOA and I have engaged successfully targets at 400-500m w/ it. A 4MOA dot at those distances will fully cover the target even at a low setting.
But the battery life, durability, and just weight reduction is something that is weighing heavily on my opinion on making the purchase.
I'm really deciding on an EXPS w/ 65moa and 1moa or a T1.
I really have to find someone w/ the Aimpoint before I make a decision. I have an Eotech, regardless of model (for the most part) the reticule is the same; I know what I'll be looking at when I get one. The T1, not so much. Let alone what it will look like through a magnifier.
I've not engaged targets past 300 yards with a T-1, but I was able to get solid hits on C zone steel at that distance.
I am a LEO and a former EoTech user/owner. I made the switch for a number of reasons but let me say first that I think it is still going to be largely a personal choice of what you like between the two types of optic.
I liked the reticle design of the EoTech, and performed well with it. What I didn't care for was the battery life, failure rate (not personally experienced I need to add), and having to turn the damn thing on every time I needed my rifle.
I made the switch to an Aimpoint Micro (T-1) and haven't looked back. It is lighter, always on and after making the transition found it just as fast as an EoTech. I too have seen the torture videos of the T-1 and I have no doubt in my mind that it will take a beating. This is important as there are occasions (rarely) when I have the rifle bouncing around in the trunk of a squad and not in a rifle mount up front with me.
As far as EoTech failures I never had one. I have heard from some other agencies having loss of zero problems after being in a trunk rack, or the battery issue which I have actually seen with fellow officer's EoTech's...including the revision "F" units.
That 5 year battery life is just freaking crazy. I am doing a T & E for my agency on the Micro (like there isn't enough done already by other agencies and the Military) and have yet to have turned it off.
Train with it before deploying especially if you are transitioning from another optic. It should not take much, but there was a difference for me anyway when making the switch.
Man that is signature line material.
Just keep in mind owning a piano doesn't make you Mozart.
Odd request, but does anyone have pics of the 4MOA micro through a magnifier, just trying to get an idea of how large that dot looks through a magnifier.
The Eotech is actually 1/3 MOA, but the human eye only sees it as 1 MOA, so when you through a 3x in front of it, it's still just a 1 MOA dot.
ForTehNguyen
06-04-11, 09:06
keep in mind a fatter dot will be quicker to acquire in bright sunlight. But with the eotechs 65 MOA circle reticle, even eotechs 1 MOA dot is quick to acquire because of that circle reticle. 4MOA will be pretty fat with a magnifier at distance.
Odd request, but does anyone have pics of the 4MOA micro through a magnifier, just trying to get an idea of how large that dot looks through a magnifier.
The Eotech is actually 1/3 MOA, but the human eye only sees it as 1 MOA, so when you through a 3x in front of it, it's still just a 1 MOA dot.
=======================================
The magnifier magnifies the target and the red dot. So, it covers the same amount on the target.
I don't think the T-1 is truly a 4 moa. It is bigger than a 3 but it doesn't cover a 4" target up at 100 yards. I've read in a couple of places that the dot is actually a 3.6 moa but I don't have a way to measure that accurately.
I guess like most other firearm options it depends on your mission. I think a lot of good points have been brought up concerning the advantages and disadvantages of each optic. I have an eotech and an aimpoint. I don't really favor one over the other.
Submariner
06-05-11, 15:35
This is not a Aimpoint vs Eotech disagreement. I think they are both fantastic. I think they both will suffice and accomplish the mission. It's a matter of personal preference. Nothing more. I just don't happen to think battery life or having to hit a button to turn the sight on is an issue. Not in a civilian environment. We're not going on a 5 day patrol where tensions are high 24/7. That's my only disagreement. Battery life and turning the eotech on. Everything else between the two are outstanding. Just personal preference.
Before I'd be willing to make this statement, I'd like to see LAV's DD M4 torture test performed with an Eotech, any model, in place of the Aimpoint.
christcorp
06-05-11, 19:02
Before I'd be willing to make this statement, I'd like to see LAV's DD M4 torture test performed with an Eotech, any model, in place of the Aimpoint.
Why?
Is this test specific to being a civilian and our needs for optics/sights? If it's a torture test based on military requirements, I'd say that it's irrelevant. You quoted me as saying that both eotech and aimpoint are excellent optics. That's it's personal preference. And that "FOR ME", battery life or turning the optic on prior to use isn't that important. Especially in a civilian environment. I definitely stand by that. Not sure how any torture test would prove that any differently. Now; if you're saying the general quality of the eotech is greatly inferior, then that's definitely something I'd like to see a test on.
Go spend some of your money and take a new Aimpoint and a new Eotech and start testing them. You can find out for yourself which one is better/tougher. This is a web site for people who use and run their gear hard.
Well I'm not trying to get into a pissing contest, this thread has obviously gotten a little crazy.
I'll tell you my opinions from an Infantry guy who uses his rifle in Afghanistan. I've ran all of the 3 major optics at one time or another: Acog, Aimpoint and Eotechs.
I'm personally running an Eotech right now on my M4 sitting beside me as I type this. I have an Eotech at home w/ my home gun.
I've been seriously considering getting an Aimpoint T-1 or H-1, especially after seeing that thing getting knocked around in Larry Vickers DDm4 Torture Test video.
There's been a few people talk about needing a red dot on, at anytime, in the night, whatever. If that's the case then there really isn't even room for you to argue needing an Eotech, sorry, it's not for you. Or just utilize your irons, front and rear, or a light. In a home invasion, unless you’re a millionaire in a mansion you are going to be shooting in such confined spaces looking over the front sight post will result in rounds on target if you have even a privates level of proficiency.
But back on topic, the thing I'm worried about in picking up a T-1 (I don't know anyone w/ one) is the fact that it's a 4MOA dot. I love my Eotechs 1 MOA and I have engaged successfully targets at 400-500m w/ it. A 4MOA dot at those distances will fully cover the target even at a low setting.
But the battery life, durability, and just weight reduction is something that is weighing heavily on my opinion on making the purchase.
I'm really deciding on an EXPS w/ 65moa and 1moa or a T1.
I really have to find someone w/ the Aimpoint before I make a decision. I have an Eotech, regardless of model (for the most part) the reticule is the same; I know what I'll be looking at when I get one. The T1, not so much. Let alone what it will look like through a magnifier.
Would you consider another Aimpoint? Smone of their models with a 2 MOA dot might be a good compromise for your needs.
christcorp
06-05-11, 21:04
Go spend some of your money and take a new Aimpoint and a new Eotech and start testing them. You can find out for yourself which one is better/tougher. This is a web site for people who use and run their gear hard.
No problem. I got it. Eotechs suck, and Aimpoints are the greatest in the world. And anyone who has an eotech doesn't know what they're talking about. No problem. Glad we got that clarified.
No problem. I got it. Eotechs suck, and Aimpoints are the greatest in the world. And anyone who has an eotech doesn't know what they're talking about. No problem. Glad we got that clarified.
To a degree, yes. It has been well documented that Eotech has had some serious problems; mounting issues, battery life, contact issues, zeroing issues etc. It has also been documented some have performed well. The new XPS Eotech appears to have breathed new hope/life into the Eotech system, so much so that I am considering one for my new BCM. However it will in not replace the Aim Point M4s on my primary carbine.
Aim Points have been a documented solid choice in the RDS field for a long time now. Although I have yet to make a final decision I still can't help to wonder if I wouldn't be better off with another Aim Point but I am very curious about the XPS system and I may take the risk and give it a chance.
Would you consider another Aimpoint? Smone of their models with a 2 MOA dot might be a good compromise for your needs.
I have been considering the Aimpoint PRO.(2 MOA) I've used the M68CCO for some while and have grown accustomed to it, but like I said in my previous post I just love my Eotech.
Lately, I guess it's the buzz behind the T1, it's weight, and after Larry Vickers through that little sucker around, I have started to lean towards that. Previously I thought that with such a small optic, it wouldn't be durable and wouldnt survive a drop from shoulder height, let alone be zeroed. Looks like I was wrong.
I don't think the T-1 is truly a 4 moa.
Correct. It's somewhat smaller, because they're using the same emitter as any other 4MOA model in the Comp-series, but in a shorter body, so it ends up being closer to 3.5MOA.
Christcorp, it's more accurate to say that all the folks who own/use an EO and discount out of hand all of the verifiable trends that that optic has produced doesn't know what they're talking about. Or is more likely a member of some entity/agency where they can walk up to a window and tell an armory custodian to get them "gimmie a new optic because this one crapped out." I don't have enough ink in my pen to write down all the names of folks that fall in that description.
Also, just to spitball, if something has, say, a 60% failure rate, it stands to reason that SOMEbody out there has the other (hypothetical!) 40% that were built when the little old lady on the assembbly line was only roaring drunk instead of blind drunk. More power to them, and it's idiotic for others to tell them that they're full of shit, because they're not.
But nor are those that belong to the (hypothetical!) 60%.
We're all victims of our frame of reference, is all, and usually damned quick to forget it.
Gents, when looking at different optics you always have to think about what it is you even do or want to do. Being in the Military, you will have vastly different needs and requirements from an optic.
The original post was really a question about is a 2 MOA dot better then a 1 MOA dot surrounded by a 65 for longer distance shooting.
It's all preference. If you just boil it down to statistics, the smaller the dot the more accurate you CAN be, thus for longer distance shot a smaller dot is better. But is that something everyone wants or needs? In my above posts, I'm considering getting a T1, but I'm not sure about having a 4 moa dot (3.5) or getting a PRO w/ a 2MOA dot. I'm weighing the differences in red dot, weight, durability and battery life. To me that matters, I will use my gun hard, more so then an average civillian. I want something that will last if it takes a hit getting out of a vehicle or helicopter, hits a wall when entering a door, or smacks the ground when going prone.
With that, you have to take a look at to what you are going to use this for. I'm not going to tell you an aimpoint or eotech or acog is for you, they are all the best optics available on the market. They work, hands down. It's up to you as a shooter, civillian, LE, or Mil, to figure out what you want. If it's a red dot that will be there when you pick up the rifle 2.5 yrs from today, well then the decision is going to be an aimpoint or acog. If it's something that has great FOV, and a large circle to draw your eye in for quick shots, then an Eotech might work for you. Alternatively, an aimpoint does the same thing, inadvertendly by the optic housing. Looking through that is a sight in and of itself. The 1 MOA dot is alluring to me, and it has helped me engaged out to 500m w/ an M4 successfully, every time I've had to. Could I have done it w/ an Aimpoint or CCO type ACOG, I'm sure, but I feel the 1 MOA aided me in that.
I've seen every optic that takes batteries fail, at inopportune times. Whether be an Aimpoint or Eotech, I've seen both fail to work properly. I have broken optics sitting in my arms room right now there doesnt seem to be one that outlasts the other and vice versa.
All in all it comes down to what you want, this debate can and will go on for ever as long as there is something different out there, it gives the customer and end user choice and flexibility when chosing an optic.
A 6-shooter as a primary defensive arm for when in an incoherent daze at 3:30AM?
You must be very confident in your marksmanship and stress handling in conditions that you don't think you will even be able to reload a firearm in.
Really isn't here or there, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but those that have to put their reputations at stake with their advice recommend something entirely different.
I'm not telling you that you are wrong, but you might want to do some research before planting your flag on this one.
Not meaning to fan any flames, but I'd really like to know for my own application.....
If there are young children in the house, necessitating the secure storage of the primary home defense weapon, how does one secure an M-4/AR-15 in a way that allows quick access when burdened with an incoherent daze at 3:30 AM?
I currently use one of the GunVaults for my handgun....is something like that available for a rifle?
I've seen a push button wall mounted box that covers the action for a shotgun. I've also seen a footlocker type box with a padded seat again with an Amsec type push button lock.
My long guns are locked up for the same reason and my pistols are my HD guns.
Not meaning to fan any flames, but I'd really like to know for my own application.....
If there are young children in the house, necessitating the secure storage of the primary home defense weapon, how does one secure an M-4/AR-15 in a way that allows quick access when burdened with an incoherent daze at 3:30 AM?
I currently use one of the GunVaults for my handgun....is something like that available for a rifle?
Not meaning to fan any flames, but I'd really like to know for my own application.....
If there are young children in the house, necessitating the secure storage of the primary home defense weapon, how does one secure an M-4/AR-15 in a way that allows quick access when burdened with an incoherent daze at 3:30 AM?
I currently use one of the GunVaults for my handgun....is something like that available for a rifle?
You could put something like this in your closet. It would put your carbine pretty close by, but still not the same as having a pistol laying on the night stand.
http://www.vlineind.com/html/closet_vault.html
Crow Hunter
06-06-11, 22:21
My $.02.
I have a M4s and my brother has a R-1 and an XPS2 (I think, it is small and has a second dot for long range on it). I put them next to each other and the M4s and the R-1 dot size are virtually identical in the sunlight. The R-1 did seem to have one level "extra" of brightness compared to the M4s. But I really couldn't see a difference in the dot size. I had been contemplating getting 4-moa aimpoint because I thought it would be brighter and more noticable. It wasn't other than on the very highest setting compared to the M4 at it's highest setting.
I liked the Eotech. The reticle wasn't as strong/bright looking as the aimpoint but ring and the extra dot were good reference points for walking shots in to 400-600 yard targets. Not 1st round hits but good for "Dammit, I need to hold a little bit higher". I was more repeatable with his Eotech than I was with my Aimpoint at long range. There was alot more guess work with the single dot Aimpoint.
Keep in mind, by the time you get out to the point that a 3.5 MOA dot obscures too much of a torso sized target you will have to holdover anyway. :jester: And if you are shooting at little bitty targets at long range, you need a different optic, even with a magnifier you aren't going to be that effective. I actually think that Aimpoint went with a smaller diode for battery life rather than "accuracy".
As an aside, I am also ditching the magnifier. Didn't really help me at all, got in the way more than anything. It helped me see the target a little better, but it made the rifle harder to hold offhand and the recoil caused me to lose the sight picture sometimes. Without the magnifier, I could see the dust kickup and correct.
I am actually really jonesing to try out a TA33, just can't find them anywhere at a reasonable price.:(
TX Rancher
06-10-11, 12:10
You could put something like this in your closet. It would put your carbine pretty close by, but still not the same as having a pistol laying on the night stand.
http://www.vlineind.com/html/closet_vault.html
This closet vault may not be a good option. I'm speaking from experience as I have one mounted in a closet.
If the intent is to keep a rifle secured from prying hands, but quickly available in an emergency, it has a potential flaw in it's design.
The door is secured through two methods, one is a rather fast entry push-button lock. The other is with two key locks mounted on the top and bottom of the door.
The push-button lock does not securely seal the door. Breaking in requires nothing more than a screwdriver to pry the door from the top or bottom. To actually secure the door you need to engage the key locks, which of course would preclude rapid access.
When I purchased the safe I was expecting better construction.
As to the sights, I am currently using EoTech (2) and have been one of the lucky ones with no failures. But I've been investigating picking up a T1 not so much for battery life (although what's not to like about extended battery life!) but for the reduced space on the rail and light weight. I must admit I was also very impressed with what the one in the DD video went through and kept functioning and retained POI.
It sounds like those that have used both have found the larger dot on the AP to not be much of a problem. Has anyone used it with night vision gear? I use a Gen III optic (Mini-14) with my EoTech and the results sometimes are not very good. In particular, if there is other light around, such as around a house or moonlight the reflected light/image can vastly reduce the clarity of the desired image. Is this problem reduced with the T1?
Thanks for any insight!
LiveFreeOrDie2111
06-11-11, 08:48
This is the age old battle...you get a better FOV with an EOTECH, but I personally like the red dot over the cross in a circle of the eotech. The EOTECH's controls are a pain with gloves on, the positive click turn knob of the Aimpoint is great, so it's 6 to 1, half dozen to the other. They're both great sights.
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