View Full Version : SWAT Articles on the Press Check
Just got done reading the latest SWAT magazine and the 2 press check articles by Seth Nadel and Pat Rogers.
I don't know Seth Nadel but that article is the perfect example of what NOT to do, what NOT to follow and more importantly what mindset not to adopt or develop.
It is to no surprise that police officers are some of the worst trained individuals within this community when you have this kind of information and mindset being passed down to young officers.
That office has not learned a thing as a 27 year veteran of U.S. Customs and a police trainer.
Just when I think nothing else can surprise me in this community, knuckleheads like that have articels published in major industry magazines.
Having trained with Pat in the past, I have no doubt that he was biting his tongue when writing his second part of the discussion. LOL!!!
R.
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Those articles looked like the high school "debate team" kaa-kaa of you argue this side and I'll argue this side.
Seth's article did come across as a little tongue in cheek even though he was trying to come across as being against the checks but he really can't feel that way....or can he?... or did he just need an extra paycheck...?
Oh well...
But maybe it's just me...
.
The thought crossed my mind about his article being there to stir the pot.
If he really does feel that way, well then he's a tool. But what is SWAT Magazine thinking when they decided to publish that crap.
My issue with it is, some your shooter, or officer will read that and think that it's ok not to do a press check, especially when the author has 27 years of experience. It's disturbing!!!
So Mr. Nadel needed a paycheck and came up with an article that failed to convince me that redundancy is a waste of time. Well good for him, I read the articles, he got paid, SWAT sold another issue. Capitalism at it's best. When Pat Rogers stops writing for SWAT is the day I stop buying it.
...............................
Can someone pass on the gist of the article?
I don't read that magazine (ever), so I have no clue what the points the authors are trying to make either. While my curiosity is piqued, I almost don't want to know. Kinda like a train wreck I guess. Don't want to see it, but can't seem to look away when it happens. :)
BushmasterFanBoy
06-02-11, 08:51
Can someone pass on the gist of the article?
Nadel argued that a lot of people press check incessantly, even when they should know that they have a round chambered. For example, your average duty cop puts one in the pipe at the start of the day, but then does a press check before serving a warrant. According to Nadel, this shows that the officer really wasn't sure if his gun was loaded the whole day, during which he could've had to use it. Additionally, he argues that a lot of untrained shooters doing presschecks when they aren't essential leads to ND's, and he may be right on that, but that's a training issue, not a press check one.
Pat rebuts by saying that press checks ensure the gun is loaded when you need it, and you should never just trust that your gun is loaded, or even in proper working order for that matter. Press checking, and simple weapons manipulation in general, instills confidence in the firearm, and allows a cursory glance at its working order on a routine basis.
I don't see where Nadel is terribly wrong, your gun should have loaded the round when you chambered it, and doing press checks before "super serious" work is akin to thumb cocking hammers in TV shows. But in practice, I come down on Pat's side. I wanna see brass, and I check because I've had stuff break on me during the most unexpected times. Nadel offered something of a reality check, but a thoroughly unconvincing one to any person who seriously thinks their life depends on the proper function of a mechanical instrument. He's basically saying "it's supposed to work, so don't check it, you might hurt someone, and you look silly." :rolleyes:
I have the mag, but have not read the article. I am cool with press checking, but DO believe that some instructors make too much of it.
The other issue with doing a press check is that SOME people will actually create a problem (especially on an AR) because they forgot to push the forward assist.
Most pistols have a live round indicator that can either be felt or the round can be visually seen. If it is dark or your pistol doesn't have a live round indicator, then you have to to stick your finger and touch the round.
Since most of us (LE/CCW) load and holster our pistols in an area with light (or we can use a flashlight), I am BIG fan of a visual check VS a press check.
As far as AR's go, there is a really simple and easy way to do it (instead of touching the round in the chamber). Before inserting the mag into the AR, feel which side the round is on. Insert the mag and chamber a round. Remove the mag and feel if the round moved over. Insert mag (push/pull), and you are good.
C4
When your life depends on your tool why would anyone fault someone for double checking? Yes you loaded and checked it that AM but right before going into harms way and simply double checking... well it a no brainer
I press checked who knows how many times during my career. Usually at the beginning of the shift and rarely during.
One thing that would rattle around my brain, after doing a press check, was whether the round was now slightly out of battery. Could a piece of grit have lodged itself between the casing and the chamber during the procedure? Want to do it in a sand storm?
When you press check, the slide isn't going forward with the same force it had when you originally chambered the round. Has this ever caused a problem? I haven't personally heard of one, but my remedy was to slam the back of the slide with my off-hand palm, just to make me feel better.
One of the reasons I like a loaded chamber indicator. No press check just simply one your finger thumb over it. Works in the dark too
I corresponded briefly with Denny Hansen from SWAT magazine about this, and he said that the whole point of the article was to get people to think.
What is there to think about??? I would love for someone to make an intelligent argument about why it's a good idea to not do a press check.
That whole mindset and laziness of it is just ****ed up. Like I said, no wonder cops are some of the worst trained individuals out there when this is the type of information being passed down to new guys.
Between information like this with such bad guidance, and having people with absolutely ZERO real world experience write articles in these magazines and in this industry as a whole, it's no wonder a lot of people have issues with this stuff.
RISK = PROBABILITY X CONSEQUENCES.
The Customs guy can probably load his pistol after graduating from the academy and unload and clear it when he retires. I'm not quite sure when the last US Customs shootout was -- probably during Prohibition.
Pat tends to train people who actually shoot their weapons.
RISK = PROBABILITY X CONSEQUENCES.
The Customs guy can probably load his pistol after graduating from the academy and unload and clear it when he retires. I'm not quite sure when the last US Customs shootout was -- probably during Prohibition.
Pat tends to train people who actually shoot their weapons.
Isn't ICE part of customs.
I don't know about that. The mexican border is a war zone right now and has been for a while. The news just isn't talking about it a lot.
Nadel's mindset tells me he's not a shooter AT ALL!!!!!!!
Well goodie; The Ammo Fairy is dead.
Now if the Fly Fairy and the Door Fairy will kindly drop dead, I won't ever again have to check my zipper before I leave the house or the door locks before I go to bed.
Customs doesn't exist anymore; it was folded in to ICE in 2003 I believe.
And ICE does get in to gunfights.
Jason Falla
06-02-11, 11:52
Press checking is a essential part of carrying a weapon. Knowing when and how to conduct one is a critical component to good weapons handling and operation.
Here is my perspective on press checking at a higher level. How it can be incorporated during training, and when it should be performed while on operations.
On the range, I always have the students confirm via several methods with both the carbine and the pistol that a round has been chambered during the initial load and make ready command. If I am training students in techniques that continually change the condition of the weapon, I will always ensure that they conduct a magazine and press check, so that they are fully aware of what condition the weapon is in and how many rounds they have to complete the drill. This teaches the students to be mentally engaged and to continually manage their ammunition and weapon readiness. These are the first steps to get the students thinking tactically and managing their equipment.
These skills should help prepare officers in the safe handling and operation of theirs weapons while on duty. After completing this type of training, officers should be prepared to draw and engage targets as required with little to no warning, while under stress, and without having the time to press check!
But, when executing a HRW service or a direct action assault, there is always time to conduct final preparation and checks to ensure that the mission has the best chance of success. This is due to the mission being executed on the terms and timings of the assaulting force. So to guarantee mission success, all equipment essential to the task should be checked and rechecked, this may well include press checking your weapon, checking slings, magazines and mag pouches, laser settings, NVG's, and a host of other things. Because you have the time to do so. These checks also give the team members confidence that everything is ready and in good working order. Having confidence that all individual and team equipment is ready is an essential part of the combat mindset which aides the assaulting force during the assault.
However, if you are a patrol officer who reacts to a situation and deploy his weapon, or and assault team committing an emergency action plan there may not be enough time to conduct all of the previously mentioned checks and as a result may need to have faith in the fact that you have your equipment ready to roll. That's why it is so important to maintain high individual standards within the team/unit/department so commanders can respond quickly and decisively if time is limited and the mission is executed on the terms and times of the opposing force.
Remember, if you have the time to conduct rehearsals and pre-mission checks you will greatly increase the likely-hood of mission success and you might just catch 'that' guy who isn't squared away!
I always do a press check to verify my weapon is loaded. I typically do it if I have not had personal possession of the weapon in question. ie placing into my trunk or a gun vault after clearing the sallyport. I want my gun to go bang if I have to pull the trigger. I guess it is an ocd thing.
Dan
I press checked who knows how many times during my career. Usually at the beginning of the shift and rarely during.
One thing that would rattle around my brain, after doing a press check, was whether the round was now slightly out of battery. Could a piece of grit have lodged itself between the casing and the chamber during the procedure? Want to do it in a sand storm?
When you press check, the slide isn't going forward with the same force it had when you originally chambered the round. Has this ever caused a problem? I haven't personally heard of one, but my remedy was to slam the back of the slide with my off-hand palm, just to make me feel better.
I have a very good friend who performed a press check prior to beginning his tour as he regularly does. He was involved in an OIS and got the loudest sound in the world on his first trigger pull. He performed an immediate action and then took care of the issue at hand. He still has the round that came out of the chamber. It didn't have a mark on the primer. He believes that his pistol (a .40 Sig P229) didn't go fully into battery after the press check.
That being said, I do press checks any time my weapon has been out of my sight and teach my guys to do the same. I just make sure, like you said, that it is in battery after.
Another driveby attack on Pat Rogers with unsubstantiated claims by MarkM. I'd like to see you say this to his face.
Everyone, keep personal feelings about an instructor to yourself.
Making sure the slide locks back into battery is without saying a must.
When I was carrying a glock, I got into the habit of always tapping the rear of the slide with my hand to make sure everything went back to it's normal operating position after a press check. I do the same thing with my M&P .45, however with my 1911 I don't have to do it but I still make sure the slide locks or goes all the way forward before I re-holster.
I guarantee that officer will never make that mistake again. I'm glad to hear things turned out ok for him.
R.
Every single time I pick a gun up, I do a chamber check of some form.
It might just be a chamber check - press check - to verify a round is in there, or it may be a full fledged slide travel to slide lock to make sure it's empty.
After I read the article last week I had contemplated on asking how everyone else physically accomplishes their press checks.
Think I do mine a bit differently.
Guess that's a topic for another thread, eh?
As has been stated by others in this thread, I conduct a press check every time I take possession of any of my guns(Or any gun period.). I then make sure the weapon goes back into battery. I also keep my thumb on the back of the slide(handgun) while holstering IOT make sure it stays in battery during the holstering process. If one has the time and opportunity to do this, I can't think of a single good reason not to. I just think of it the same as I do a pre-combat check, even though I'm just gonna be going to Blockbuster and back(JK, who goes to Blockbuster anymore?:jester:)
I am by no means an expert, but I'll share my feelings. If I pick up any of my weapons I always ensure that it is loaded/ unloaded. If I am leaving my house and carrying concealed I check it. If my pistol has been out of my sight (as in I put it on the night stand or whatever) I check it, even though I know it was loaded the day before. This is due to the fact that my wife may have dicked with it.
Do I need to check it a hundred times a day? No. If I was carrying it on duty and I know for a fact that I loaded and checked it in the morning and it has been in my holster all day long, I don't see how it would have magically unloaded itself. So I can see where someone might think that people are "overchecking".
In the end it comes down to your comfort level. If you are comfortable in checking it once a day, twice a day or once a week that's your prerogative.
On the other hand if I was getting ready to bust through a door serving a warrant or storming a house filled with Muj I would probably spend the extra 30 seconds to do a check. Death is forever so if I **** up and get shot because I failed to do a check or one of my team mates was killed because of it, that would be pretty shitty.
I agree with Grant about the AR's. It is wholly possible to create a malfunction if it isn't done correctly. I also don't check mine for the simple fact that I carry mine at home with an empty chamber, on fire. If I need to put it into action I know w/o a doubt that I have charge it to put it into action.
Overseas in may cases unless you are rolling out on a mission (back at the FOB/COB) your weapon almost always has to be safe and clear.
Having been witness to a few training events where coworkers failed to have a round chambered, I'm a believer in the press check.
For better or worse, people get distracted. Sometimes multiple things are going on at once in prep for an operation. Sometimes, people just forget. Maybe they cleared it, to clean it, show it to some one, or as noted, reg's require it, & just never brought the gun to a full load.
I press check Like Paul Howe taught me, grab the slide at the rear, thumb facing back, crack it, check, and drive it back home. No fingers near the muzzle, & good control over the slide.
AR's, just like Pat teaches.
Bob
One thing I haven't seen covered here is the psychological factors.
If someone is going into a situation where the status of the weapon may be life or death important and the thought of it crosses their mind (main reason why the thought of a press check will likely come up) then why would it be a good idea for the individual to go into that situation with the weapon status possibly eating away at their mind and psyche. Thinking about it and being distracted or unnerved by it can cause a loss of precious time of reaction speed and/or performance. Looking nervous, distracted, etc also flat out makes the person more likely to be attacked in most circumstances as well (the "don't **** with me" look is often best to avoid confrontation).
If someone can do a single press check and not think about it ever again (even if its just the time they load the gun and don't touch it again for 20 years) then psychology is a rather moot point but to those who feel the urge to know what their weapon status is, best to fulfill it in my personal opinion.
In general keep in mind about doing press checks making it more likely to fail, no real difference between one at the start and one at a random point during the day, any press check can make the weapon go bad or correct being bad from a previous press check so it balances out for the most part. Now getting into something like a sloppy press check that is more likely to leave the weapon out of battery more than doing a full blown slide or bolt release and that is a different matter.
I've been complacent in doing regular press-checks - until recently, when I came up to the line with a single-shot 1911 - one in chamber, no magazine in...This happened during a no-light shoot doing handheld light assisted shooting where things were not immediately visible and shooters got overloaded fast with darkness, flash, and lack of immediate availability of their second hand. Since then I am fairly anal about verifying presence of a magazine in my gun and presence a round in gun's chamber. Ease of saying "if you did it right, it is loaded" is exceeded by ease with which we all screw up, some sooner, some later.
When I worked at a Sheriffs Office I had to carry a crappy S&W 4043. Hated it. Anyway, I religiously practiced my dryfire before and after work cuz I hated the damn DAO. Imagine my surprise when after my shift I went to dry fire and......NOTHING. Trigger bow cracked on my last dry fire. Had I not checked, I wouldn't have had a clue.
Needless to say, I religiously chamber check and function check my weapons.
One invaluable (for me anyway) side effect of this type of discussion is that it sheds light on the opinion of some instructors. When an M4 member who happens to be a well known instructor makes his opinion known on an issue like the "press check" it helps me to decide if I would be interested in spending my time and money with him. You can always learn something from everyone but having put a lot of consideration into different techniques it helps to know an instructors perspective before getting involved with them. That's one reason I like this forum, they speak up. For example, on a recent TV program, I saw a known instructor demonstrate an empty chamber drill with his signature AR. Slap that mag up, rack, bang. That was what I was taught 20 years ago, now I know better. Now I also know that I will not be spending time in his class. Observe and decide. JMHO.
I must be out of touch. I never do press checks. I know the gun is loaded because I loaded it. How the hell is it going to unload itself? If you loose control of the weapon that's different. My duty and back up gun Stay Loaded.
My rifles are "cruiser ready" full magazine with an empty chamber and safety on.
SuperiorDG
06-03-11, 07:27
One thing I haven't seen covered here is the psychological factors.
Good point that had crossed my mind. When rock climbing I always re-check my knot before every pitch. The less on my mind the better when in stressful situations.
Jeff Franz
06-03-11, 09:08
I can understand what the author was saying to a point. I train regularly with a few guys that are ALWAYS press checking their weapons, and I've always thought they may be overdoing it a bit. They seem press check before and after every single drill. Not a big deal if it gives them piece of mind. My personal philosophy is to press check a weapon any time I take possesion of it, when I load it to leave the house, and when I return home and unload it. I have never been in a situation where I need to kick a door and make entry, but I agree that I would most likely check to make absolutely certain if I knew I was going into harm's way.
The reason why I press check anytime I load a weapon can be aptly illustrated with examples from the competitive world. I RO a local 2-gun match, and multiple times every month, shooters insert a magazine into their rifle or pistol, rack the charging handle or powerstroke their slide, and then get the world's loudest "click" when the buzzer goes off. I see it time and time again. They don't fully seat their magazine, and the bolt or slide rides over the top of the rounds in the magazine, and they have an empty gun. A simple, 2 second press check would have revealed the problem. Granted, those examples are in a relatively safe environment where the penalty for a lapse in fundamentals results in the loss of a few seconds and ridicule from your fellow competitors. But one could argue that same scenario could play out in the real world with much more dire results when it really mattered.
I will also add I had a long discussion last night with a good friend of mine who is finishing up the academy for a local PD. Even though he graduated #1 in his class on the range, the "instructors" continually gave him a rash of shit because he did ghastly things like reload in his workspace and press check every time the command was given to load and make ready. Their disdain for the press check was not a safety concern, it was because they claimed it was nothing but a waste of time, and they kept asking him if he thought he was in the movies. He was vindicated during the final drill on a combat course when several students experienced the loudest click in the world because they did not properly load their weapons and did not press check before entering.
Thanks to ^Jeff^ its now habit with me to press check my primary and secondary, because its the smart thing to do. I think its a good habit to be certain of the firearms condition. To me its just as sensible as the basic firearm safety rules which some careless people also feel are a waste of time.....till an accident happens.
I am by no means an expert, but I'll share my feelings. If I pick up any of my weapons I always ensure that it is loaded/ unloaded. If I am leaving my house and carrying concealed I check it. If my pistol has been out of my sight (as in I put it on the night stand or whatever) I check it, even though I know it was loaded the day before. This is due to the fact that my wife may have dicked with it.
Just like a pilot who preflights his airplane before every flight a small effort that yields great peace of mind.
Schadenfreude
06-03-11, 09:34
Now cat you know perfectly well if your wife was practicing her blindfolded field strip & reassemble drills she woould have put the gun back in whatever condition she found it
I press check. I have been trained to press check. All the same, Kyle Lamb strongly recommends against the press check. He contends that he has seen it induce stoppages.
I press check. I have been trained to press check. All the same, Kyle Lamb strongly recommends against the press check. He contends that he has seen it induce stoppages.
That's strange. He conducts one in this video at about 1:25 in.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vc_-mlWtgs
I have never taken a course with SGM Lamb, but I hope to sometime in the future.
Good point that had crossed my mind. When rock climbing I always re-check my knot before every pitch. The less on my mind the better when in stressful situations.
I agree with this. A lot of people make the comment to the effect that if I loaded it then it didn't unload itself so it should still be load.
I agree with this but for me it give me a warm and fuzzy to just check it and KNOW it's loaded. It cost NOTHING to do a press check.
Also some talk about inducing a malfunction and creating problems, no offense to any but if you can't do a press check without causing a malfunction then you need remedial manipulation training. I've been doing press check since I started shooting and I've never caused a malfunction. When I shoot a glock (since they sometimes don't lock again) I always tap the rear of the slide. Also, no matter what system I'm manipulating I pay attention to the system to make sure everything look good and where it belongs after the press check.
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, especially when your life is on the line.
As with all things in this industry it about mindset.
R
Jeff,
tell your buddy in the PD his instructors are TOOLS!!!!!! and the reason Police Officers are some of the worst trained individuals to carry weapons as part of their job.
R.
Jeff Franz
06-03-11, 13:08
I press check. I have been trained to press check. All the same, Kyle Lamb strongly recommends against the press check. He contends that he has seen it induce stoppages.
This is just an arguement of semantics, but according to Green Eyes, Black Rifle, he recommends another form of checking to ensure the rifle is loaded on Pg 47 & 48. He prefers the method of removing the magazine after chambering a round to ensure the next round is loading off of the left, rather than the right as a full magazine would. Another valid technique. The point being, he is a believer in making sure the rifle is loaded before going into harm's way.
Jeff Franz
06-03-11, 13:22
Jeff,
tell your buddy in the PD his instructors are TOOLS!!!!!! and the reason Police Officers are some of the worst trained individuals to carry weapons as part of their job.
R.
Couldn't agree more. Thank God he gets it, and has attended carbine and pistol classes from other instructors (which is probably why he graduated #1 in his class).
I could go into a serious thread hijack with the things he told me they were dinging him on when it comes to weapons manipulation. A few include - it is unsafe to reload a weapon in your workspace because you sweep the people to your left and right. ????. It is better to hold the weapon pointed straight at the target with your arms at full extension when reloading, looking like a monkey ****ing a football and sweeping anyone down range of you. Whatever. Furthermore, you should ALWAYS take a knee when reloading, whether behind cover or not. When my buddy asked what if I'm moving and need to reload, the response was in the real world you may do that, but on the range, even when moving, we will practice stopping and taking a knee. Wow. What do you think those guys will revert to when under stress? I only hope none of those officers get killed doing that shit. He said the lead instructor was the head of the SRT team and was adamant that his ways are the best, and he doesn't need any training himself. My friend asked if he had ever heard of guys like Larry Vickers or Ken Hackathorn, to which he responded "never heard of 'em?"
Sorry for the hijack. Back to our regularly scheduled discussion.
No worries. I know a few PD guys down here, as a matter of fact getting together with one tomorrow to shoot out sniper rifles.
Let me ask you what PD is he in? You can PM me the info.
R.
I knew someone (casual acquaintance so "knew" is a stretch) who did a mag well grip and when I mentioned it would probably be better to grip further up for greater control he more or less flipped out that such and such instructor from such and such taught them this (obviously I don't remember the details of the teaching organization) and decided not to press the matter. I figured is was some instructor/organization who is a bit behind the times. Kind of sad thinking about information out there like whats being discussed, brings up the question of how much better no formal training might be over bad training.
Isn't ICE part of customs.
Customs doesn't exist anymore; it was folded in to ICE in 2003 I believe.
And ICE does get in to gunfights.
Incorrect. There is U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement and there is U.S. Customs and Border Protection. Both are separate agencies and the U.S. Border Patrol is under U.S. CBP, though they are somewhat autonomous.
Incorrect. There is U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement and there is U.S. Customs and Border Protection. Both are separate agencies and the U.S. Border Patrol is under U.S. CBP, though they are somewhat autonomous.
That's correct. When people use the term "Customs", it's usually to refer to the inspection officers at the ports of entry. The guys in the blue uniforms that ask for your passports and if you have anything to declare. Typically they refer to everyone else by their agency ie ICE or Border Patrol though all are under "CBP".
Back on topic: I'm one of the ones that don't really utilize the press check. I load it in the morning, put it in the holster, and it stays there. It will stay in that loaded condition until I clear it to do dry fire practice. Once I'm done with practice, I put it in the safe unloaded. I load it back up in the morning.
I will press check if im unsure, but thats usually at the range doing drills or competitive shooting where the firearms is being loaded, speed reloaded, manipulated, etc.
I've seen people take a mag, insert, rack, pop it out, add a top off round to the mag, reinsert the mag, and then proceed to press check their firearm. WTF could have happened to that chambered round in the last 5-10 seconds? :confused:
QuietShootr
06-25-11, 23:35
I corresponded briefly with Denny Hansen from SWAT magazine about this, and he said that the whole point of the article was to get people to think.
What is there to think about???
Making mo' money for Rich Lucibella.
Now cat you know perfectly well if your wife was practicing her blindfolded field strip & reassemble drills she woould have put the gun back in whatever condition she found it
Any woman that can disassemble/reassemble a 1911 blindfolded can put it back in whatever state she wants to :p
I've rarely if ever feel the need for a press check. My duty gun is my HD gun, is on the night stand, and is my CCW.
On duty it is on my pistol belt always loaded. Off duty if I dry fire practice and it sits around the house for most of the day I'll perform a visual check before I go out (CCW) or before going to bed where it will sit on the night stand. I feel comfortable knowing the condition it is in when I wake up and get ready for work.
After our quarterly qual or after a personal range session I'll immediately load for duty carry from the range so condition is known from that point the where the aforementioned routine is repeated.
While overseas doing convoy security, we made our weapons condition one on a stretch of the road before leaving the FOB. There were probably instances where firearms were put down where I've checked to make sure they were unloaded when they should be but that's about it.
There was a FF incident out in either Waleed or Korean Village where a Lt. came back from the wire and did not download his rifle. Then one bored Marine was ****ing around in the COC picked up that rifle, pointed it another Marine, squeezed the trigger and shot him in the head, killing him. Being sure a firearm is unloaded is just as important as being sure that it is loaded, situation depending of course.
Back on topic: I'm one of the ones that don't really utilize the press check. I load it in the morning, put it in the holster, and it stays there. It will stay in that loaded condition until I clear it to do dry fire practice. Once I'm done with practice, I put it in the safe unloaded. I load it back up in the morning.
Have you noticed if the bullet in your defensive ammo is being pushed back into the case? I saw this on my ammo with repeated loading and unload of the top round on my .40 Glocks. I had to go through my defensive ammo and check my rounds for cartridge set back and change some of my procedures to prevent this. Would be bad to have the first round KB in a defensive situation.
Have you noticed if the bullet in your defensive ammo is being pushed back into the case? I saw this on my ammo with repeated loading and unload of the top round on my .40 Glocks. I had to go through my defensive ammo and check my rounds for cartridge set back and change some of my procedures to prevent this. Would be bad to have the first round KB in a defensive situation.
My habits are similar to dachs. I check for that and make sure that I don't load the same round on top when reloading the firearm for that very reason.
There have been documented photos of bullet setback in cartridges being loaded again and again. I'm sure a few times wouldn't hurt but be sure to remember to rotate it or better yet, shoot it.
A different scenario caused by the same practice: I believe there was an incident posted on here involving some SWAT team in the south somewhere where they noticed some failures to fire because the indentation in the primer being too deep from having the same cartridge loaded again and again. The incident was noticed on the range and thankfully not on patrol.
I carry a gun every day. For work and for self protection. I can assure you that ANY TIME I am away from the weapon, I press check it when I am back around it. Example.... I keep my issued weapon locked in my desk when I am not at work (metal locked drawer). When I come to work, I get dressed, put on my duty belt, remove my pistol from my locked drawer and press check it.
I also put my pistol in the drawer if I am processing a prisoner or using the facilities. Again, I will press check before I put it back in my holster. When I drop a prisoner off at the jail, my pistol goes in a lock box. When I leave the jail, I remove my pistol from the lock box and press check it.
This gives me a sense of security that if I have to pull my weapon in a bad situation, I will not hesitate and think to myself, "Is this loaded?".
I've seen all the instructors I've had at TigerSwan press check so that is good enough for me. I like the check b/c it allows me to verify the gun is ready. I do rotate the top round out each week. The "used" round goes into training ammo.
I'm no HSLD ninja, but I've spent a lot of time around cops and guns.
I've lost count of the number of guns I've been handed by cops which they informed me "were unloaded"...which had a round chambered in them.
I've also seen more than a handfull of cops during qualifications draw a empty gun and dry fire it at the target before they realized what was going on. :suicide2:
If they want to constantly check their chamber...good for them, it's better than the alternative of assuming incorrectly.
With all of the problems with firearms handling habits by LE (as a whole)...whether people press check or not, and when, is hardly the the issue I think most departments need to conduct further training on.
I check from time to time, not between strings, but if I do a reload then go to holster, I'll often check before it goes in the holster. It's free, and I'm not in a hurry to reholster it.
Agreed. When it comes to fixing whats wrong with LE firearms training, the press check is towards the bottom of the list IMO.
shaneinhisroom
06-28-11, 15:10
+1 to above...I press check every couple of hours when I'm training. It's just instinct, knowing that I have confidence in my weapon when I need to deploy it.
Have you noticed if the bullet in your defensive ammo is being pushed back into the case? I saw this on my ammo with repeated loading and unload of the top round on my .40 Glocks. I had to go through my defensive ammo and check my rounds for cartridge set back and change some of my procedures to prevent this. Would be bad to have the first round KB in a defensive situation.
I've heard of this happening and its been discussed by our firearms guys at the station, but I personally have never noticed it. With that being said, I do rotate the ammo/mags around so the same round isn't constantly being re-chambered--because of those stories/warnings.
I've heard of this happening and its been discussed by our firearms guys at the station, but I personally have never noticed it. With that being said, I do rotate the ammo/mags around so the same round isn't constantly being re-chambered--because of those stories/warnings.
Have you really? Because I can only think of one FI that may know of this. I have heard from within our own community where the officers download their mag every night/day after work and then reload though because they believe the mag springs will set though, but that's another thing.
The main issue that causes setback is constantly having it run into something, namely the feed ramp where constantly chambering the same round from a mag will run the greater risk of setback as CGSteve said. Now when doing a chamber check the round is still fairly well aligned with a straight shot back into the chamber where the exposed bullet won't have that much force exerted on it as it does hitting the feed ramp and might not have any force at all, pulling the round to far back that it starts to eject and rotate and mess up its alignment would be another thing not to mention the possibility of a malfunction like a stovepipe.
I don't know about that. The mexican border is a war zone right now and has been for a while. The news just isn't talking about it a lot.
Nadel's mindset tells me he's not a shooter AT ALL!!!!!!!
I know a little of Seth. He pretty much runs White Mountain Practical Shooters and is a USPSA shooter/member and not just since retirement. I have shot in a couple of their clubs matches when up north.
Seth was in the old Customs anti smuggling unit. I did not know him them but worked a couple cases with some undercover guys from his unit in the 80s.
Seth's wife I hear teaches some NRA courses too.
ghettomedic
07-06-11, 13:45
Kyle Lamb strongly recommends against the press check. He contends that he has seen it induce stoppages.
Having just watched both his pistol DVDs, I can tell you SGM Lamb is a press-checkin' fool when it comes to the pistol. Dozens of times throughout the DVDs, occasionally twice before running a drill. I don't have my copies of his books in front of me but I don't recall him saying anything negative about the press check with regard to handguns. A press check inducing a malfunction in a rifle seems to make more intuitive sense, perhaps this is what he was referring to.
SGM Lamb is the epitome of a BTDT trainer, so if he says to press check pistols but not rifles then I think you can take that to the bank. My opinion is that it all comes down to YOUR comfort level and satisfying YOUR mind that YOUR weapon is ready to go when needed to protect something YOU care about.
Having just watched both his pistol DVDs, I can tell you SGM Lamb is a press-checkin' fool when it comes to the pistol. Dozens of times throughout the DVDs, occasionally twice before running a drill. I don't have my copies of his books in front of me but I don't recall him saying anything negative about the press check with regard to handguns. A press check inducing a malfunction in a rifle seems to make more intuitive sense, perhaps this is what he was referring to.
SGM Lamb is the epitome of a BTDT trainer, so if he says to press check pistols but not rifles then I think you can take that to the bank. My opinion is that it all comes down to YOUR comfort level and satisfying YOUR mind that YOUR weapon is ready to go when needed to protect something YOU care about.
So are Paul Howe and Pat Macnamara, both press check their rifles frequently.
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