View Full Version : Reasonable accuracy expectation for 16" middy
I am looking at a couple 16" BCM middy uppers one BFH and one SS. My question is what is a reasonable expectation for these barrles? From what I have read here it sounds like the BFH barrle will have a longer "service life" but I will trade some life for some accuracy.
I am not expecting a 1/2 MOA gun but is 1.5moa reasonable for a 16" middy?
I assume this topic has had the dead horse treatmeant so any links to posts about the same would be great. The search function is not woking for me, I tried.
Thanks
jonconsiglio
06-02-11, 10:53
For a cl 16" middy from a reputable manufacturer, I'd be expecting about 2 MOA, give or take a half... Anything better than that is a plus. Both of my SR15's are almost 1.5 MOA, for example, but this was at 100 yards rested with a T1 and an ACOG 4x32, so it could be better if I had been using a 25x S&B and a machine rest.
ETA - the above post is what I'd expect with 75 grain TAP or similar.
Failure2Stop
06-02-11, 11:10
Using what ammo?
My BCM 16" middie does about 2 MOA with Prvi 75gr, but about 3 to 4 MOA with XM193 or M855.
I am thinking that if I can get 1.5 mao with ammo the rifle "likes" that would be ok, for matches or just messing around I am not that worried. The rifle will see way more time in the front seat of the truck on coyote patrol than at matches so with bullets more suited to that role like V-max or other "varmint" type rounds I was hoping to do better that 3 or 4 inches at 100. Thats more what I expect out of my mini 14.
I haven't had a chance to check my latest, but I will shortly. In any case the AR I put together a few months back with a Colt 6920 barrel and Troy Extreme Battle rail was shooting around 2 MOA if I remember correctly using Hornady 75gr. TAP ammo.
That was with my ACOG in place IIRC.
I'm no highpower shooter, and would be happy if I ranked at the less-than-mediocre skill level. My BCM Midlength is the standard gov't profile. With 55gr. PMC Bronze and Federal XM193 I can produce 1.5" - 2.0" three shot groups at 100 yards prone on a calm day. However, I no longer do three and five shot groups. All my groups these days are >= 10 shots. With 10 shot groups, most hover at around 3" - 4" at 100 yards.
I have not run anything but XM193 and the PMC through my BCM midlength.
Setup:
BCM 16" midlength gov't profile
Aimpoint T1 + ADM 1/3 mount
Prone, mag resting on the deck with VTAC sling tightened up for stability
Nightvisionary
06-02-11, 14:09
I asked this very same question several months ago on lightfighter and received some very good answers. 3-5 MOA for a non free float rack grade carbine seems to be the concensus.
"I bought a new mid length AR carbine last month. It has a chrome lined 16 inch, 1/7 govt. profile barrel with standard non-free float handguards. I won't name the brand but it is one of the higher quality AR's that use milspec quality parts and inspection/test processes.
With about 600 rounds fired I have yet to get what I consider to be consistent reasonable accuracy of 1.5-2 MOA. My very best 5 shot group has been just under 2 MOA at 100 yards. The worst 7 MOA. Most groups fall between 3-5 MOA. All firing has been performed at a range with concrete shooting benches using sandbagged rests and quality optics.
I have fired a variety of different ammunition including Federal XM-193, American Eagle 223, Remington/UMC, Wolf and HSM 52 grain TNT.
I have worked up many different handloads using Hornady 55 grn FMJ, 68 grn and 75 grn OTM as well as Sierra 69 grn SMK in a variety of configurations using Tac, AA2230, Varget, and IMR 4895 powders, CCI 400, CCI 450, and Federal 205 primers. I weigh each powder charge indivdually.
The rifle performs best (about 2 to 2.5 MOA) using Hornady 55 grn FMJ handloads and worst (3-7MOA) using Hornady 75 grn OTM.
For optics I started with a Leupold MK4 LR/T 3.5x10 epoxy bedded on DSA heavy 30mm rings.
I switched to a Leupold MK4 MR/T 1.5x5 mounted in a ADM 30mm Recon-H cantilver mount with ring screws torqued per manufactures spec of 20 inch lbs.
I lightly polished the standard AR fire control parts and installed JP 4 lb yellow springs and a Magpul MOE pistol grip.
Nothing I have done has resulted in any significant improvement. I have a fairly solid base in regards to shooting fundamentals gained from the Marines and LEO firearms training. After shooting this rifle for the last month I am starting to question my own ability. After several frustrating hours at the range yesterday, another member let me fire his 20 inch free floated Bushmaster. I fired off 5 quick shots using my 55 grn FMJ reloads and all 5 shots fell into a 2 inch vertical line. I then removed the scope from my carbine and fired 5 quick shots using the BUIS and 55 grn reloads. All 5 went into a 1 inch circle at 50 yds. I have also performed dry fire drills using a laser boresighter and my trigger control appears sound.
I am out of ideas. My optics, conditions, and components are excellent. I have lightly rested just the rear of the handguards on a single sandbag and locked the entire rifle up in several sandbags. It makes little to no difference. At this point Im thinking it's either me or the barrel or is 3-4 MOA all I should expect from a top quality carbine, scope, mount, and ammo package?
Weaver
Posted 30 December 2010 04:38
1) That's pretty good accuracy for a 16" AR. That is quite good for a non-free-float barrel.
2) That's quite good accuracy for some of the ammunition you mentioned. The factory loads are all stuff I would expect to turn in 4-6MOA at best - cannot speak to the quality of your handloads, but you may simply not have found what that gun likes.
3) What do you expect? This ain't a match target gun - it's an AR carbine. You should be happy with anything in the 2-4 MOA range.
Humminbird
Long Time Posting Guy
Posted 30 December 2010 04:46
With the 55grn FMJ bulk ammo it's normal to get 3-5 MOA from prone unsupported, but with handloads you can reasonably expect around 2 MOA for groups with 10 or more shots.
If you suspect problems, you could start by checking the barrel nut, I've seen some that were loose from the factory, although not on high quality ARs. Anything could happen, I guess. Visually check the barrel, all it takes is a bad crown and accuracy goes to hell.
I would also try shooting groups with iron sights to see if there's a problem with how the optics mount fits your upper. It's unlikely, but I've witnessed issues with other quick detach mounts, so it's worth checking.
You could always ask the manufacturer to take a look under warranty, if you think there is an issue.
Pat _Rogers Premium Membership
Leadership Moderator
Posted 30 December 2010 04:53
Good Morning!
Are your expectations exceeding the reality of what a carbine is?
4moa is the standard, and while some guns are capable of better accuracy, most shooters are not.
I have nothing to offer you, as i don't shoot handloads, for a variety of reasons. But in the day when i shot High Power i did reload. I found no difference between loading my 308 match loads on a Dillon 550 than wasting time individually measuring powder loads.
Would putting a FF handguard on the gun make it better? Maybe.
But i don't bench rifles- unless there is an overiding reason to.
But, if i was looking for 1.5moa accuracy, i would look at a dedicated SPR, and avoid anthing XM, wolf etc and stick with a viable brand of ammunition.
And have a more realistic expectation about what a carbine is for.
S/F
Pat sends
www.eagtactical.com
GSeriesFAL
FNG
Posted 30 December 2010 07:44
So you guys are telling me I am expecting too much from a standard AR carbine. It sounds like accuracy wise an AR with a 16 inch barrel is not any more accurate than an AK then.
RTS
FNG
Posted 30 December 2010 07:55
Your rifle does not sound like a target rifle so 2-4moa is fine and is about what could be expected. 2-4moa is more than enough to get the job done in that setup. The next time you ask advice about accuracy don't tell anyone you tried wolf to deterime what the accuracy was.
strawman
Posted 30 December 2010 08:04
There are things you can do to improve accuracy, but don't expect your rifle to be something it is not. If you buy a carbine, expect reasonable combat accuracy. If you want to shoot little bitty groups, buy a gun that was built to do that.
Pat _Rogers
Leadership Moderator
Now i know you have unrealistic expectations. Roll Eyes
Some reality.
The AK, Mini-14, M-14 and M1 all have similar accuracy standards- figure 6 moa.
The AK is further complicated by the open sights and generally poor ammo.
The M16- in all of it's configurations - is the most accurate Service Rifle that the US has ever fielded.
If you want an AR type that is super accurate, don't get a service grade carbine with standard handguards.
Look at getting a Larue gun- which will likely give you something you are looking for.
S/F
Pat sends
www.eagtactical.com"
jonconsiglio
06-02-11, 14:54
Using what ammo?
My BCM 16" middie does about 2 MOA with Prvi 75gr, but about 3 to 4 MOA with XM193 or M855.
That's pretty much what I meant in my post. I should have clarified that my SR15's only get that level of accuracy with 75 grain TAP and the 2 MOA I prefer from my rifles is also with that ammo, or other quality ammo.
I don't expect that out of my training ammo.
~3 MOA seems to be the standard with plinking ammo. I shot these off a bench with a BCM BFH 16" middy and Geissele SSA and Aimpoint M4 w/ 2 MOA dot all at 100 yards.
PMC .223
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/johnson_n/IMG_1223-1.jpg
Federal XM193AF
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/johnson_n/IMG_1225.jpg
Prvi Partisan 75gr Match
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/johnson_n/IMG_1226-1.jpg
Fiocchi Match 77gr Sierra MatchKing
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/johnson_n/IMG_1229.jpg
I asked this very same question several months ago on lightfighter and received some very good answers. 3-5 MOA for a non free float rack grade carbine seems to be the consensus.
wow, if thats off a bench I'd really have to question the ammo or bullet weight/twist combination... that seems quite high.
Even our cheapest doublestar 5.56 M4gery is shooting better than 3 MOA with PMC bronze... it's way more accurate then Mini's with the same ammo.
I'd get some premium 5.56 match ammo and try the sandbags just to see what the upper limit of accuracy is.
Personally, I don't believe that free float tube (or lack thereof) will improve that type of spread significantly for 16" barrels from sandbags. (CMP type shooting with huge sling pressure could make a difference, however)
to put it in perspective, rack grade M4 clone Grendels with "gov profile" shaw barrels are seeing sub-moa on a regular basis without free float. My current 16" middy (LMT complete lower, M4gery config upper, M4 profile barrel minus the 203 cuts, MOE handguard) is consistently sub-moa on sand bags if I do my part.
Not to advocate Grendel or bench shooting, just to point out that rack grade m4geries *can* shoot sub-moa even with non-free float 16" barrels in M4 profile.
While I think I could pull a non-freefloat lightweight pencil barrel with a sling, possibly even an M4, the sling approach to do so would not be aligned with the typical tactical doctrine for carbines!
But if you want to see what the weak link in the accuracy you have to hit the bench with known good ammo to determine the baseline accuracy. I'd start there before chasing accuracy improvements.
The Grendel ammo (Hornady factory & handloads) probably would be considered premium match ammo, so I suspect that's much of the difference. The Grendel cartridge design is also very accurate, though I don't think 5.56 is at much disadvantage with premium loadings.
Generally, Wolf PPU Grendel in rack grade setups (non-freefloat) is 1.5 MOA'ish in the MPT loading. And 2-3'ish in the soft point loading.
So ammo can make a very large difference even in Grendel.
Using what ammo?
My BCM 16" middie does about 2 MOA with Prvi 75gr, but about 3 to 4 MOA with XM193 or M855.
This is about the norm for any Chrome lined barrel. Sabre barrels are the only chrome lined FF or non Free Float barrels that I've shot and read about beating this norm regularly.
I am looking at a couple 16" BCM middy uppers one BFH and one SS. My question is what is a reasonable expectation for these barrles? From what I have read here it sounds like the BFH barrle will have a longer "service life" but I will trade some life for some accuracy.
I am not expecting a 1/2 MOA gun but is 1.5moa reasonable for a 16" middy?
I assume this topic has had the dead horse treatmeant so any links to posts about the same would be great. The search function is not woking for me, I tried.
Thanks
There are four things that directly affect accuracy. They are:
1. Quality barrel
2. Quality ammo
3. Quality trigger
4. Quality shooter
So what kind of group an AR will spit out really depends on the above.
C4
I shot an honest 5 shot .7" group with an STI 16" middy last week with 77g OTM 5.56 Atlanta Arms ammo with a 4x scope
they run a Nordic Wylde Chamber, 1 in 8, stainless barrel
Wilson blank
and hitting steel plates at 500 yards was easy
There are four things that directly affect accuracy. They are:
1. Quality barrel
2. Quality ammo
3. Quality trigger
4. Quality shooter
So what kind of group an AR will spit out really depends on the above.
I fully agree with the above ^^
The Lower is a LMT with 2 stage trigger, I know ammo is going to have an effect and I don't expect to drive tacks with xm197. I am not sure which hand guard I will go with but it will be a free float, thinking V-tac extreme.
I guess what I am getting at is if I ain't that concerned about barrle life will a BCM SS be a more accurate barrle than the hammer forged one?
Thanks for the help to all who have replied, I think I have learned that there is alot about AR15's that I didn't even know I didn't know.
I was about to buy a RRA when one of your members pointed me in the right direction.
My BCM 16" SS Middy does a consistent .95" at 100 yards over and average of many 10 round groups with 69 SMK handloads. Good trigger and with the barrel FF. It's right on par with my BCM 18" SS410 upper as far as pure accuracy.
Here's a group I had on file:
https://www.m4carbine.net/picture.php?albumid=340&pictureid=1762
I don't have a BCM 16" BFH CL Middy, but my new Noveske 16" CL BFH upper appears to be capable of sub-2" at 100 yards easily with the same 69 SMK load. I haven't been able to wring it out yet, but of the 100 various experimental match loads I've put through it since I received it last week, the 69 SMK kicked out a 10-round 1.5" group at 24.7 grains of RE-15. All other powders / bullet combos so far were unimpressive, but it likes a known good SMK load of mine for the short line.
My BCM 20" govt. profile std. CL upper is a 2.5" at 100 yard gun with match loads, and a 4" at 100 yard gun with handloaded 55 FMJs over 10 or 20 round groups, which is about as good as can be expected. It'll print a sub 2" group rarely, but it's not repeatable on demand.
I've shot some excellent groups from my LE6920 with surplus ammo. Its not easy but can be done if you take your time and concentrate.
These were my best groups ever. M855, stock non FF barrel, stock trigger, J Point MRD using the magazine as a mono-pod (to not flex the barrel) and sandbags under the mag and butt. I kept these targets to show what the gun is capable of. I just put a FF rail on this weekend but have not shot the gun.
1st pic no wind 50 yards. 2nd 100 yards. I was shooting 50 yard pistol targets.
8623
8624
I've got a DD 16" LW middie, and 14.5 BCM's in LW and standard weight. There's not much difference between them. Remington 55FMJ is 4 MOA, BH 68 or 69 grain match is about 2 MOA. My Centurion middie seems to be quite a bit more accurate, usually getting 2.5-3 MOA with crap FMJ and around 1.5-2MOA with the Black Hills stuff.
I average about 4 MOA with any of my 16" steel barreled middies (BCM, Noveske, CMMG) through open sights using std 55 grn FMJ's.
There are four things that directly affect accuracy. They are:
1. Quality barrel
2. Quality ammo
3. Quality trigger
4. Quality shooter
So what kind of group an AR will spit out really depends on the above.
C4
Yes exactly. I believe that the quote from Pat about 4 MOA ARs is based on both #1 and #2 along with a healthy dose of #4.
FWIW, I would re-orient your list to make the priorities and the impact more clear, and add one as I think eventually it will come up.
Shooter
Ammo
Optic
Barrel
Trigger
I went back and looked at my data again.
in my pathetic hands with Black Hills 75 grain, a standard trigger, a 9x optic and a bipod:
Spike's Tactical M4LE Enhanced did <2 MOA
BCM Mid RECCE (CL 14.5" barrel) did <1.5 MOA
With Prvi XM193 both were ~ 3 MOA.
5-shot groups at 50 yards, average over 5 groups. I understand this will not meet the current standards of the internet but I present the information for what it is.
Yes exactly. I believe that the quote from Pat about 4 MOA ARs is based on both #1 and #2 along with a healthy dose of #4.
FWIW, I would re-orient your list to make the priorities and the impact more clear, and add one as I think eventually it will come up.
Shooter
Ammo
Optic
Barrel
Trigger
Since the OP is asking about the mechanical accuracy of his rifle I think we must assume the shooter can do his part for this discussion. I do realize that most shooters are not really good but merely "good enough" on the non-competition side of things.
The age old advise that I have always heard regarding rifle accuracy was "Float a good barrel" and get a good trigger. So I agree more with C4's list.
1) Barrel (Floated)
2) Ammo
(For the rifle)
3) Trigger
4) Sights-what ever type
(For the shooter)
Only after all the mechanical limitations are removed do you really know the affect the shooter is having on accuracy.
Triggers are a big part of this equation if we are talking about shooting and real accuracy. Not what is "adequate" to hit man size targets at near point blank range.
"Float a good barrel"
I agree. Floating most of these chrome lined combat barrels doesn't do much for accuracy in my experience. I'll take a good KAC RAS over most of these ass ache install rails any day on a combat barrel.
My non floated WOA barrel will out shoot my floated BCM by a mile.
I agree. Floating most of these chrome lined combat barrels doesn't do much for accuracy in my experience.
It is helping but it may not be as noticeable for you with a military grade barrel or at close distances. Floating the barrel eliminates user induced barrel flex so it has to be helping mechanically speaking.
I started shoot for groups off the magazine because simply because resting the barrel on a sandbag or rest would noticeably open up my groups at only 50 yards. This prompted me to get a FF rail sooner than I intended.
As many have posted in other threads, you can easily torque a barrel with a sling enough to throw 100 yard shots off by 3 or 4 inches.
Firearm accuracy is simply about aligning the sights on target and pulling the trigger without disturbing that alignment...and being able to repeat it.
A good trigger and a FF barrel are needed or are exceedingly helpful in doing this.
It is helping but it may not be as noticeable for you with a military grade barrel. Floating the barrel eliminates user induced barrel flex so it has to be helping mechanically speaking.
True. Whenever I shoot a barrel for accuracy, I take care to not torque on the barrel at all. So under more careless shooting the floatation might be beneficial.
You cannot eliminate the shooter, especially when you are talking about someone relatively new. There was a post recently from someone looking for a 1k yard gun that had never even shot past 50 IIRC. The shooter is the weak link there. When I bought my original Remington 700 "sniper" rifle inhad never shot past 50 yards. Placing a target at even 200, even with 10x, was... challenging.
:jester:
Free floating "military barrels" has almost nothing to do with benchrest shooting and improving the mechanical accuracy of the system but has much more to do with reducing influence on the barrel in dynamic shooting situations.
Free floating "military barrels" has almost nothing to do with benchrest shooting and improving the mechanical accuracy of the system but has much more to do with reducing influence on the barrel in dynamic shooting situations.
Mechanical accuracy is mechanical accuracy regardless of how the firearm is deployed. You are trying to insulate the rifle from external forces that would disturb its inherent accuracy. Its all the same thing.
The shooter is not part of the machine, just the operator and ability is variable. The rifle is constant.
Thanks to all for the replies, this is very helpfull. I don't mind a 2 moa rifle if thats what is realistic of the rifle, I just don't want to get it and have in my head that it is going to shoot some magical one hole groups.
I agree that the trigger is Very important, my current AR has a 2 stage trigger that breaks at 1.5# IIRC its a gissel (sp?). What ever Les baer puts in the super varmint. It is the best trigger I have ever used.
I am 33 and started shooting when I was 5, 2 time company high shooter in the Marines (only went to the qual range twice.). I shoot alot. I am no "sniper" or even an "internet sniper" even though it seems like they must all live on the net. Just a normal ass combat engineer. I can do my part.
The middy will wear a 4x16 for accuracy testing but in the end will have a low power variable or short dot.
Thanks again you all are a welth of info, this site probably saves me a hundred bucks worth of junk parts every time I read it.
I presently have this BCM mid-length(http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-SS410-16-Mid-Length-Upper-Receiver-Group-p/bcm-urg-mid16%20ss410%20ddl12.htm) on a Stag Arms model 2 lower with stock trigger.
I'm still developing as a shooter and have not shot the rifle from a ransom rest, so I can't really offer a confirmed account of the rifle's accuracy. That said, I'm relatively optimistic that the barrel is going to ultimately manage 1MOA accuracy if I can get better and keep working on finding the kind of reloads it shoots best.
The below is of a 5 shot group at 100 yards I got out of the rifle on Sat with 69gr Sierra HPBT Matchking reloads that I didn't put all that much TLC into making due to time constraints:
http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g443/Dehoc/2011-06-01_07-39-05_726.jpg
I was shooting from a bench using a front bag. Optic was a trijicon accupoint tr24 maxed at 4x. I dont have the software to mark up the group, but I measured the maximum spread at 1.54" with my reloading calipers.
with 69gr Sierra HPBT Matchking reloads that I didn't put all that much TLC into making due to time constraints:
I put 500 of those together for a member here... in an hour on my Dillon. We are looking to see if we can get good accuracy out of ammo ran balls out on the progressive.
Free floating "military barrels" has almost nothing to do with benchrest shooting and improving the mechanical accuracy of the system but has much more to do with reducing influence on the barrel in dynamic shooting situations.
Beat me to it.
Oldstate,
I think y'all are saying the same thing only different.
For a long time, I was in the, no FF camp, why? its just a carbine, right?
I then attended a Jim Smith/Spartan Tactical carbine class. FF rails were discussed. They had said, tests were conducted, and significant poi shifts were noted, depending on sling pressure, barricade use, and IIRC mounting accessories on the rails. The numbers escape me right now, but they were significant enough to cause a miss at 100yds.
Other then the cost, there are not a whole lot of downsides.
So, when your runnin and gunnin, up and down stairs, in and out of vehicles, assaulting, etc. and your getting fatigued, you are gonna rest that gun on something, you are gonna pull that sling tight to eliminate as much movement as possible, etc. Why not have one less variable to worry about?
Bob
They had said, tests were conducted, and significant poi shifts were noted, depending on sling pressure, barricade use, and IIRC mounting accessories on the rails. The numbers escape me right now, but they were significant enough to cause a miss at 100yds.
I've seen the opposite when it comes to silencers. Mounting a Silencer on a 14.5 floater moves POI way more than a KAC RAS'd carbine. Now my sample size isn't large enough to confirm anything... but I have my suspicions.
I run both FF and KAC RAS rails.... I've not realized any noticeable benefit on the FF guns. But I'm very diligent in not pulling on/touching my barrel when taking a well aimed shot.
Every barrel is a crap-shoot, accuracy wise, but what I've come to "expect", with good ammo, is (very) roughly 1/3 or better improvement in group size between a quality SS barrel and a quality CL barrel.
With lesser quality ammo, the SS barrel may show even more of a difference, but lots of exceptions are possible, even between like barrels from the same maker.
If you are after longer range precision, go with the quality SS barrel every time, IMO. Shorter range and hard use/high barrel temps, the CL is probably the better choice, due to barrel life.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
06-03-11, 12:27
Hmmm, I must be crazy then. I'm pleased that with my skills and a quality rifle, my bullets hit a torso sized target at 500 yds. I didnt buy any of my carbines to bench em and bitch about millimeters, I bought them because evil living targets are big, fast, and need to put down quickly. I guess I must be doing my 1-5's wrong because Ive never shot 1 MOA:confused:
Yep. I'm pleased to keep 5 rounds in a 4" square at 100.
... to bench em and bitch about millimeters...
An inquiry about what constitutes a reasonable accuracy expectation for an upcoming purchase, which generates feedback from responders about their own experiences = bitching about millimeters??? :rolleyes:
No actually you have it right. That is my standard as well. Everything else is simply a waste of time.
Unless you are killing defenseless ground hogs or competition bullseye stuff.
Hmmm, I must be crazy then. I'm pleased that with my skills and a quality rifle, my bullets hit a torso sized target at 500 yds. I didnt buy any of my carbines to bench em and bitch about millimeters, I bought them because evil living targets are big, fast, and need to put down quickly. I guess I must be doing my 1-5's wrong because Ive never shot 1 MOA:confused:
An inquiry about what constitutes a reasonable accuracy expectation for an upcoming purchase, which generates feedback from responders about their own experiences = bitching about millimeters??? :rolleyes:
If I wanted a very accurate 16" middy, I'd look for one of the Sabre Defence barrels. Those things have a crazy reputation for shooting well.
I have a 14.5 inch DD LW middy.
With my buddy (amazing all around shooter) shooting it from abench with a 4X optic and handloaded 77 grain SMK it was doing half inch 5 shot groups.
With me shooting it prone, with a micro aimpoint , and 62 grain Wolf ammo Im shooting 4-5 inch 10 shot groups.
So.... I know the barrel is capable , and with good ammo the gun can perform in the right hands. With me shooting that same 77 grain ammo I was shooting just under 2 inch groups IIRC.
From that I can safely say that a good 1-2 inches of my "bad" cheap ammo group is the shooter, and another 1-2 inches is the ammo.
No actually you have it right. That is my standard as well. Everything else is simply a waste of time.
Unless you are killing defenseless ground hogs or competition bullseye stuff.
To each there own. Ground hogs or bad guys I want a rifle to be as accurate as reliability will allow. If the rifle is 1 MOA and the shooter is 5 MOA than your good to go. If the rifle is 4 MOA and the shooter is 5 MOA than you have a problem. Under stress it could get worse.
To me its a silly argument. The shooter needs a baseline to understand their ability.
"Speed is Fine, Accuracy is Final" - Larry Vickers
Wolverine954
06-03-11, 17:36
I am looking at a couple 16" BCM middy uppers one BFH and one SS. My question is what is a reasonable expectation for these barrles? From what I have read here it sounds like the BFH barrle will have a longer "service life" but I will trade some life for some accuracy.
I am not expecting a 1/2 MOA gun but is 1.5moa reasonable for a 16" middy?
I assume this topic has had the dead horse treatmeant so any links to posts about the same would be great. The search function is not woking for me, I tried.
Thanks
16" BCM SS middie, free float TRX, 7X optic, SSA-E trigger, shooting off a bench @ 100yds & actually trying...
Avg. extreme spread of 39 five shot groups is 1.26" This was during load development/ testing with four different bullets and two different powders. I haven't been able to do much better once settling on a load. Brought the avg down to 1.236". Groups vary from about 3/4" min to 2" max.
IMO it is about a 1 1/4 MOA rig. That is, with me loading the ammo and doing the shooting. I'm confident others could do better.
I also have a BCM CHF 16" middie. I haven't shot it in the same manner, as it only has irons (GI trigger, not free floated, etc). However, I doubt it would be too far behind.
Except that in most scenarios (for civilians) you almost cannot justify shooting someone at a distance where it will be significant. Most crappy AR's will allow you to hit someone at 300M.
Justifying that is a whole different story. Of course, if it's the end of the world that would be a non-issue.
To each there own. Ground hogs or bad guys I want a rifle to be as accurate as reliability will allow. If the rifle is 1 MOA and the shooter is 5 MOA than your good to go. If the rifle is 4 MOA and the shooter is 5 MOA than you have a problem. Under stress it could get worse.
To me its a silly argument. The shooter needs a baseline to understand their ability.
"Speed is Fine, Accuracy is Final" - Larry Vickers
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