View Full Version : What is the skinny on the new 1x8 Short dot vs 1x3x9 ELCAN
The Dumb Gun Collector
06-02-11, 17:32
Hey guys,
I know neither of these scopes is out yet. But does anyone have serious idea of when these scopes are going to be out. I want to outfit my SCAR-17s with one of these options. The S&b seems like it has been cooking forever. What is the deal? I gather there are some issue with the reticle and dot co-witnessing across the entire range of magnification? What about the new Elcan? Has anybody seen it?
Yea I want to know as well!! I am sitting here waiting for both new S&B to come out. Money is burning a hole in my pocket for the 1-8 and 3-20. Come on S&B!!!!!!!
Magic_Salad0892
06-06-11, 03:26
Greg, where did you learn about the issues with the S&B sight?
Also, has Elcan (Raytheon) fixed the zeroing, and mounting issues on the Spectre sights, yet? If they've fixed that... then the 1-3-9X looks like the ideal sight.
I gather there are some issue with the reticle and dot co-witnessing across the entire range of magnification?
I think this is all speculation repeated across forums and Shot show reviews.
I had also read that the the S&B is delayed (at least at the retail side) until October due to parts availability.
Bottom line is neither one of these scopes is out yet.
The Elcan is still in development, the S&B has suffered numerous delays.
Magic_Salad0892
06-07-11, 01:25
...If the price if better, or it offers superior capability I might wait for the Elcan.
However... S&B has a good reputation and 9X isn't needed for 600m shots.
Elcan's reputation is no where near Schmidt & Benders.
At that price point, I would go S&B any day of the week.
Talked to S&B Germany yesterday. They should be out in September.
Same people who said it would be out in August 2010.
Belmont31R
06-07-11, 20:31
Elcan has a shotty record.
SB has a near pefect record.
Plus I have owned 3 SB optics so my personal experience says to wait for the SB. I just sold my 1-4X SB to a moderator here which was my second short-dot. Since they are both not out, which was the info you are looking for, based on all my research and personal experience I would go with a blind taste test of the SB much before the Elcan. There have been numerous documented complaints with elcan optics shifting zero and other issues. Ive been online in forums for 2 decades now and can count on one hand the number of SB complaints. They will not release a scope until its ready. Yeah it sucks to wait but Id rather wait than get a sub par optic they fix 2 years later, and Im stuck selling a known sub par optic I paid 2k for that I can only sell for 1k now. I bought my Short-Dot through SB USA on their program and paid less than 2k for it. 2 years of use and I sold it for a couple hundred less than I paid. SB retains value.....
+1.
The Elcan is an amazing optic on paper. There is WAY too many bad stories out there for me to tie up $1800 in it.
Like Belmont and BP have said, at that price you're comparing a company with an immaculate record for quality and performance to a company with a less than impressive performance and a reputation for optics that can't hold zero worth a damn.
For that much money, it seems completely unreasonable and illogic to me to take the gamble on the company that just can't seem to get things right.
It looks nifty on paper, but the product is being executed by a company that just doesn't seem to be capable of doing it or knowing what they're doing to begin with.
I still cannot understand why Elcan ever thought external/mount adjustments on an optic was ever a good idea, or why they decided to keep it on the SpectreDRs when it was a known failure point.
Not to mention the fact that they decided to pair a ~$2000 optic with a low quality mount from a low quality company like ARMS. :suicide:
I won't say that a company can't turn their business around and make a come back with a good product, but once again when you're spending this much money it's not worth the gamble, at least not to me.
The newer Specters don't have as much bad mojo around them, but that's a shitload of overtime to buy one. Too much of a leap of faith for me.
ARMS mounts used to be THE mount to get. Much better choices now.
Bobro, Larue and ADM really are the ways to go now. Just pick your flavor, all are high quality.
For what the Specter is, I think you can do the same with a T-1 and a magnifier, and have more flexibility.
Trijicon allegedly has an update to the Accupoint in the works. With how impressed I was with the TR24 for the money spent, that's something I may be looking at. For urban environments it really needs some type of LED illumination IMO, but this isn't a concern for everyone.
Alaskapopo
06-08-11, 01:50
The newer Specters don't have as much bad mojo around them, but that's a shitload of overtime to buy one. Too much of a leap of faith for me.
ARMS mounts used to be THE mount to get. Much better choices now.
Bobro, Larue and ADM really are the ways to go now. Just pick your flavor, all are high quality.
For what the Specter is, I think you can do the same with a T-1 and a magnifier, and have more flexibility.
Trijicon allegedly has an update to the Accupoint in the works. With how impressed I was with the TR24 for the money spent, that's something I may be looking at. For urban environments it really needs some type of LED illumination IMO, but this isn't a concern for everyone.
The T1 even with a magnifier is not a long range optic. You will be able to shoot well to about 300 yards but the reticle is still a 4 moa dot with no hold over marks and no way to dial it in quickly. Also as a previous owner of the T1 (currently own 3 R1's) the clarity of looking through a T1 with a Aimpoint magnifier is no where near as good as a Elcan or simular quality optic. Not that the T1 with a magnifier does not have its place but its not as versatile.
Pat
I disagree. With the T-1 & magnifier combo, you can remove the magnifier when it's use, or readiness to be used, isn't as important of a consideration. Then you have an optic with a tremendous battery life which weighs 6oz. That is a level of versatility that the vari solutions can't come close to. There is a clarity and field of view tradeoff going from magnifiers to varis.
For most users, shots past 300 in a tactical use are a pipe dream.
If the problems with the Elcan were all ironed out, my one big gripe is that it doesn't have diopter correction. Of course, neither does the Aimpoint magnifier. The Elcan loses any type of tactical or target turrets, and the only thing it brings over the T-1/magnifier is a BDC reticle which, for the vast majority of shooters, won't match your setup.
I would also argue that the Elcan isn't a "long range" optic per se.
Belmont31R
06-08-11, 03:11
I disagree. With the T-1 & magnifier combo, you can remove the magnifier when it's use, or readiness to be used, isn't as important of a consideration. Then you have an optic with a tremendous battery life which weighs 6oz. That is a level of versatility that the vari solutions can't come close to. There is a clarity and field of view tradeoff going from magnifiers to varis.
For most users, shots past 300 in a tactical use are a pipe dream.
If the problems with the Elcan were all ironed out, my one big gripe is that it doesn't have diopter correction. Of course, neither does the Aimpoint magnifier. The Elcan loses any type of tactical or target turrets, and the only thing it brings over the T-1/magnifier is a BDC reticle which, for the vast majority of shooters, won't match your setup.
I would also argue that the Elcan isn't a "long range" optic per se.
Sounds like you got it all figured out. Can you teach us?
What 1-4X type of optics do you have experience with? Not cheap China knockoffs either. mainline European brands only who introduced this scope combination to the tactical market in the 2005 time frame?
Magic_Salad0892
06-08-11, 04:39
In a blind leap of faith, no question. S&B every time.
Failure2Stop
06-08-11, 08:45
I am having a hard time warmin up to Elcan.
They burned me in the past.
But hey, so did EoTech and I have an EXPS now, so if Elcan can show that they have grown past ARMS, zero-shift, battery life, weight, and robustness issues, maybe they will be viable.
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-08-11, 10:58
I am having a hard time warmin up to Elcan.
They burned me in the past.
But hey, so did EoTech and I have an EXPS now, so if Elcan can show that they have grown past ARMS, zero-shift, battery life, weight, and robustness issues, maybe they will be viable.
Is that all ;)
A S&B 1-8, an Elcan1x3x9=27, a Premier 1-8 and a Leupold CQBSS- which one wins? The Leupold-Because the other three are figments of your ****ing imagination!
Sorry, had to channel some Chasing Amy.
I think Belmont has done a good job of discussing the optical issues with these high mag range scopes. Just because you can do a 1-10 range, there is no optical fairy that is re-writing the laws of physics and optics. I have oodles of more time behind camera optics than shooting optics and there are no free lunches.
While not a great long range optic, IIRC UVvis here won one of the 25-400 yard rifle matches at Pueblo with a SBR and a T-1, with out a magnifier. Ah, young eyes.
Sounds like you got it all figured out. Can you teach us?
What 1-4X type of optics do you have experience with? Not cheap China knockoffs either. mainline European brands only who introduced this scope combination to the tactical market in the 2005 time frame?
I'm getting pretty sick of your pissy little swipes at me. I am entitled to my opinions as much as the next man on this forum. I presented my view as I see it, and was not disrespectful or acting like a tool while doing it. I don't get butt hurt becasuse someone has a different view from me.
I also think you took my post wrong. I like the variable power scopes better than the Aimpoint/magnifier combination, just not in the case of the Elcan.
By far the S&B 1-8x meets all my needs/wants on paper, but it isn't in production. The ONLY downside I can see to it is weight/size and to a degree cost. But the latter is to be expected.
I'm also waiting to see what our policy is going to be for personally owned rifles.
I have owned & used the following optics over the years;
Leatherwood CMR 1-4x (trying out 1-4x's) ADM Mount
Trijicon TR24G ADM Mount
Eotech EXPS w/ Eotech Magnifier
Leupold Mark IV 1.5-5x CMR2 M2 Larue 1.93 SPR Mount
Aimpoint M2 w/ Aimpoint Magnifier in Larue Mount
I have trigger time with a few more, and I like the S&Bs better than everything I've owned. I'm just trying to decide on which model I want.
Singlestack Wonder
06-08-11, 12:48
I am having a hard time warmin up to Elcan.
They burned me in the past.
But hey, so did EoTech and I have an EXPS now, so if Elcan can show that they have grown past ARMS, zero-shift, battery life, weight, and robustness issues, maybe they will be viable.
In referencing Elcan Specter DR's, many posters state that it is very heavy.
The Specter DR 1x4 (with mount) is 640 grams or 22.58 ounces. In comparision, a Trijicon TR24 is 14.4 ounces. Add an ADM Recon-X mount at 8.4 ounces and the total is 22.8 ounces. Compared to other scope/mount offerings, the Specter DR is very much in line.
In evaluating 3rd generation Elcan Specter DR's I've recently seen at the range, Elcan seems to have addressed the POI shift when switching magnification. Yes, it still has a ARMS mount......
pbr streetgang
06-08-11, 15:28
Elcan has a shotty record.
SB has a near pefect record.
Plus I have owned 3 SB optics so my personal experience says to wait for the SB. I just sold my 1-4X SB to a moderator here which was my second short-dot. Since they are both not out, which was the info you are looking for, based on all my research and personal experience I would go with a blind taste test of the SB much before the Elcan. There have been numerous documented complaints with elcan optics shifting zero and other issues. Ive been online in forums for 2 decades now and can count on one hand the number of SB complaints. They will not release a scope until its ready. Yeah it sucks to wait but Id rather wait than get a sub par optic they fix 2 years later, and Im stuck selling a known sub par optic I paid 2k for that I can only sell for 1k now. I bought my Short-Dot through SB USA on their program and paid less than 2k for it. 2 years of use and I sold it for a couple hundred less than I paid. SB retains value.....
I'm wondering if you could give some links to some actual first hand documented complaints about the Elcan shifting zero and other issues. It's pretty obvious that your painfully biased towards S&B and have probably never even had an Elcan in your possession, and most of what you know is from second hand bullshit that you've read of the interweb. I own 4 S&B scopes and 5 Elcans, and I can honestly say that I've had more issues with the S&B's than I have with the Elcans. I'm pretty sure I could find more first hand failures with S&B off the Internet than you could on Elcans. S&B have great glass and they are well built, but they could never take the kind of torture that I have seen Elcans take day in and day out. Again, show me first hand issues and not some " I heard about a guy who " bullshit rhetoric, and I will happily apologize. Until then, quit calling other guys out on what they have had experience with unless you can back it up.
Alaskapopo
06-08-11, 15:37
I disagree. With the T-1 & magnifier combo, you can remove the magnifier when it's use, or readiness to be used, isn't as important of a consideration. Then you have an optic with a tremendous battery life which weighs 6oz. That is a level of versatility that the vari solutions can't come close to. There is a clarity and field of view tradeoff going from magnifiers to varis.
For most users, shots past 300 in a tactical use are a pipe dream.
If the problems with the Elcan were all ironed out, my one big gripe is that it doesn't have diopter correction. Of course, neither does the Aimpoint magnifier. The Elcan loses any type of tactical or target turrets, and the only thing it brings over the T-1/magnifier is a BDC reticle which, for the vast majority of shooters, won't match your setup.
I would also argue that the Elcan isn't a "long range" optic per se.
True the average person will not need to shoot 300 yards. So what. I want an optic that allows me to use my rifle to its full potential. My roomate whas a Elcan on his rifle and it allows him to shoot out to 500 yards with ease with the groups being 6 inches. At 500 yards the Aimpoints dot is covering 20 inches. Also if you're going to run a magnifer (I have) use the larue flip to the side mount so it remains on the gun. It is a pipe dream to think you will have time to mount and or remove a magnifier in the heat of the movement with any other system. Also with a little bit of know how you can zero the Elcan so that the BDC will work with any load from 52 to 77 grains. (Have done it for my friend)
Pat
Singlestack Wonder
06-08-11, 16:00
Duplicate post....
Singlestack Wonder
06-08-11, 16:00
I'm wondering if you could give some links to some actual first hand documented complaints about the Elcan shifting zero and other issues. It's pretty obvious that your painfully biased towards S&B and have probably never even had an Elcan in your possession, and most of what you know is from second hand bullshit that you've read of the interweb. I own 4 S&B scopes and 5 Elcans, and I can honestly say that I've had more issues with the S&B's than I have with the Elcans. I'm pretty sure I could find more first hand failures with S&B off the Internet than you could on Elcans. S&B have great glass and they are well built, but they could never take the kind of torture that I have seen Elcans take day in and day out. Again, show me first hand issues and not some " I heard about a guy who " bullshit rhetoric, and I will happily apologize. Until then, quit calling other guys out on what they have had experience with unless you can back it up.
Here's a video review demonstrating POI shift on a 1x4 Specter DR. I believe this was a gen 1 or 2.
http://www.cstactical.com/Magazine/Videos/Videos-In-Depth-Reviews/Elcan-SpecterDR-1-4x-Review.html
True the average person will not need to shoot 300 yards. So what. I want an optic that allows me to use my rifle to its full potential. My roomate whas a Elcan on his rifle and it allows him to shoot out to 500 yards with ease with the groups being 6 inches. At 500 yards the Aimpoints dot is covering 20 inches. Also if you're going to run a magnifer (I have) use the larue flip to the side mount so it remains on the gun. It is a pipe dream to think you will have time to mount and or remove a magnifier in the heat of the movement with any other system. Also with a little bit of know how you can zero the Elcan so that the BDC will work with any load from 52 to 77 grains. (Have done it for my friend)
Pat
The short dot with the CQB reticle has a 5.5 MOA (approx) dot that is FFP, so it gets plenty big at 4x. Granted the CQB reticle does have stadia lines, but it's a big dot. That's the one feature I don't like.
I've read of people playing with the zero of ACOGs to do the same thing.
My point was with the T-1/magnifier wasn't with the intention of taking the magnifier off and putting it back on when needed. If you were goin to make entry in a house you could remove the magnifier and have a 6oz optic. Likewise, if you're taking a carbine class that's under 50yards, you could take it off. If it's use is anticipated at all, I would leave it on and pivot it out.
At 500 yards you would be holding the 4moa dot well above your target anyway, so it's coverage of the target isn't critical.
I saw that video review of the zero shift. IMO, it's not an indication of anything. The groups are very large, and won't show a shift anyway. I have come across quite a bit of info about POI shift. Elcan even lists a spec for this shift on their website, calling it something like coaxis alignment or something similar.
When some people talk about the zero shift, they are speaking of a loss or a failure to retain zero due to the mount. Others are talking about a POI shift when changing the magnification. There is no love for the Elcan on lightfighter.net, and quite a accounts of problems with them.
Its still an intriguing design, I just wish I would T&E one for about 30 days.
Belmont31R
06-08-11, 17:45
I'm wondering if you could give some links to some actual first hand documented complaints about the Elcan shifting zero and other issues. It's pretty obvious that your painfully biased towards S&B and have probably never even had an Elcan in your possession, and most of what you know is from second hand bullshit that you've read of the interweb. I own 4 S&B scopes and 5 Elcans, and I can honestly say that I've had more issues with the S&B's than I have with the Elcans. I'm pretty sure I could find more first hand failures with S&B off the Internet than you could on Elcans. S&B have great glass and they are well built, but they could never take the kind of torture that I have seen Elcans take day in and day out. Again, show me first hand issues and not some " I heard about a guy who " bullshit rhetoric, and I will happily apologize. Until then, quit calling other guys out on what they have had experience with unless you can back it up.
Im not going to go hunting for threads for an hour on multiple sites to satisfy you. Why dont you just email Elcan and email CSTactical who is a big Elcan dealer about shift.
Alaskapopo
06-08-11, 18:04
The short dot with the CQB reticle has a 5.5 MOA (approx) dot that is FFP, so it gets plenty big at 4x. Granted the CQB reticle does have stadia lines, but it's a big dot. That's the one feature I don't like.
I've read of people playing with the zero of ACOGs to do the same thing.
My point was with the T-1/magnifier wasn't with the intention of taking the magnifier off and putting it back on when needed. If you were goin to make entry in a house you could remove the magnifier and have a 6oz optic. Likewise, if you're taking a carbine class that's under 50yards, you could take it off. If it's use is anticipated at all, I would leave it on and pivot it out.
At 500 yards you would be holding the 4moa dot well above your target anyway, so it's coverage of the target isn't critical.
I saw that video review of the zero shift. IMO, it's not an indication of anything. The groups are very large, and won't show a shift anyway. I have come across quite a bit of info about POI shift. Elcan even lists a spec for this shift on their website, calling it something like coaxis alignment or something similar.
When some people talk about the zero shift, they are speaking of a loss or a failure to retain zero due to the mount. Others are talking about a POI shift when changing the magnification. There is no love for the Elcan on lightfighter.net, and quite a accounts of problems with them.
Its still an intriguing design, I just wish I would T&E one for about 30 days.
If your running a red dot and a magnifier I say leave the magnifer on all the time in a flip mount and hit the gym if the weight is an issue. Because things change rapidly in real life and if its not on the rifle it does not exist.
As for 500 yard shots with an Aimpoint good luck without a refrence to judge your hold over. Your only chance would be to dial in a 450 yard zero and hold low on all the close targets. My preferred optic is the Swarovski Z6i 1-6x with the BRT reticle. It addresses some of the issues you have with the Short Dot. The Elcan is not my faviorate optic but its a more workable solution in my opinion than the T1 with a magnifier when it comes to being a jack of all trades optic.
Pat
Because things change rapidly in real life and if its not on the rifle it does not exist.
Which is my point, there are times I don't want it to exist.
The weight isn't a fitness issue. I can assure you I'm pretty squared away. But a pound on the top of a rifle does more for the balance of the weapon than the numbers would suggest.
I read an intresting review on the Z6i, and LEO/Mil pricing was mentioned. Being LEO did you take advantage of that?
I like how the illumination with the Z6i works, the day/night lever that remembers the brightness level. A very neat feature. The only thing I don't like is the turrets. If they would add something like a short dot locking style, they would clean up. I know they make a slick color coded elevation dial but its not available for the 1-6x line.
Alaskapopo
06-08-11, 20:10
Which is my point, there are times I don't want it to exist.
The weight isn't a fitness issue. I can assure you I'm pretty squared away. But a pound on the top of a rifle does more for the balance of the weapon than the numbers would suggest.
I read an intresting review on the Z6i, and LEO/Mil pricing was mentioned. Being LEO did you take advantage of that?
I like how the illumination with the Z6i works, the day/night lever that remembers the brightness level. A very neat feature. The only thing I don't like is the turrets. If they would add something like a short dot locking style, they would clean up. I know they make a slick color coded elevation dial but its not available for the 1-6x line.
Weight is an issue I understand that but I am used to running a rifle with a variable scope so a T1 with a magnifier is not that heavy to me. I save weight where I can but not on the optics. I did get the LEO price and its a good discount about the same as FFL price. I love the Z6I. The turrets work well for me and they are protected. Not saying a the short dot style turrents would not be welcomed but I don't dial in the range I use the reticle marks for longer range shooting.
Pat
Magic_Salad0892
06-09-11, 03:05
Found this through one of Cameron's posts.
http://marchscopes.com.au/tactical-1-10-x-24-scope.html
A review of the March...
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=18&t=477965&page=1
I next evaluate the illumination of the March scope. As I mentioned earlier, the March scope combines the illumination and parallax adjustment on one knob. Turning the knob changes the parallax whereas pushing a rubber button on the side of the knob controls the illumination. There are 4 settings for the illumination as well as an ‘off’ setting. You simply push the button several times to cycle through them. Should you leave the illumination on, it turns off on its own in an hour. Those of you who desire daylight visible illumination will be disappointed. The highest setting is not even close to being visible by day (reticle appears black even when illuminated in daylight.) Similarly, the lowest setting is probably a bit bright for use in a very dark environment since it was still visible in the lighted room I was in. Perhaps the most interesting note on the illumination was how completely consistent it was across the crosshair. Most illuminated reticles show some bleeding of the illumination off the edges of the reticle or have somewhat blotchy illumination on the reticle. This is not the case on the March. It is crisp. Nor is there ambient glare of the illumination in the scope. Only the reticle is illuminated. No evil clouds of reflected red haze.
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-10-11, 02:25
Found this through one of Cameron's posts.
http://marchscopes.com.au/tactical-1-10-x-24-scope.html
Not FFP?
So is the CQBSS the only MIL/MIL FFP 1-4+ scope out now, with no timeline for any competitor to come out?
I know we all like to kick the CQBSS in the knobs, and it is far from a perfect scope, and I know people will only say I'm saying nice things because I am in bank account abusive relationship with one- but there ain't nothing else like it out there. The CQBSS is king of the hill, of what some people would say is a pile of crap. It the valedictorian optic in that class- that got there on a short-bus and the other kids are still being home schooled.
No more posts after waiting for the M4C server to reset at 1am mountian time.
I bet Premier and S&B could produce a FFP 1-8X now. It seems to be the incorporation of a SFP red dot at low magnification that is causing the delay. It is the red dot feature that will distinguish whoever gets it right first from the rest of the pack.
Not FFP?
So is the CQBSS the only MIL/MIL FFP 1-4+ scope out now, with no timeline for any competitor to come out?
I know we all like to kick the CQBSS in the knobs, and it is far from a perfect scope, and I know people will only say I'm saying nice things because I am in bank account abusive relationship with one- but there ain't nothing else like it out there. The CQBSS is king of the hill, of what some people would say is a pile of crap. It the valedictorian optic in that class- that got there on a short-bus and the other kids are still being home schooled.
No more posts after waiting for the M4C server to reset at 1am mountian time.
At the CQBSS' price, I would absolutley demand and expect perfection, which it isn't.
It's short bus on the way to the crappy public school, while the others are being home schooled by a hot twenty something blonde their parents hired.
Singlestack Wonder
06-10-11, 17:06
I saw that video review of the zero shift. IMO, it's not an indication of anything. The groups are very large, and won't show a shift anyway. I have come across quite a bit of info about POI shift. Elcan even lists a spec for this shift on their website, calling it something like coaxis alignment or something similar.
Would you please point out which are of their website lists the "coaxial alignment" shift specifications for the Elcan Specter DR Gen3? I've looked thru both the spec document and manual for the 1x4 and cannot find a reference.
There are a few different Rayethon sites which link back to Elcan. This is what I saw back in April when I came across it...
SpecterDR 1x/4x Specifications
Magnification 1x/4x
Length 153mm nominal
Width 71mm nominal
Height 72mm nominal
Weight 598g nominal
Reticle Dual-thickness range finding crosshair with user-selectable red dot
Ballistic Correction 200 to 600m for 5.56 NATO (in reticle)
Illumination Source Battery-powered LED
Crosshair Illumination 5 settings, night vision compatible
Red Dot Illumination 5 settings, night vision compatible
Eye Relief 70mm
Field of View 26 deg @ 1x, 6.5 deg @ 4x
FoV @ 1x 46.2 m @ 100 m (138.4 ft @ 100 yds)
FoV @ 4x 11.4 m @ 100 m (34.2 ft @ 100 yds)
Coaxial Alignment <1.5 MoA between fields
Entrance Pupil 32mm
Exit Pupil 8mm
Fixed Focus Range 20m to infinity
Battery Type CL 1/3N (3v Lithium)
Battery Life 300 hours min., 2000 hours average
Exterior Finish Anodized aluminum, dark green color
Adjustment Resolution 0.5 minute of angle
Adjustment Range 120 minutes of angle
Base requirement Mil-Std-1913 "Picatinny Rail"
Attachment ARMS Levers
Environmental:
* - Waterproof:
* - Shockproof:
66 ft for 2 hours min
450 g's
Available Options Anti-Reflection Device
*
SpecterDR 1.5x/6x Specifications
Magnification 1.5x/6x
Length 184mm nominal
Width 73.5mm nominal
Height 79.3mm nominal
Weight 700g nominal
Reticle Dual-thickness range finding crosshair with user-selectable red dot
Ballistic Correction 200 to 600m for 5.56 NATO (in reticle)
Illumination Source Battery-powered LED
Crosshair Illumination 5 settings, night vision compatible
Red Dot Illumination 5 settings, night vision compatible
Eye Relief 70mm
Field of View 16 deg @ 1x, 4 deg @ 4x
FoV @ 1.5x 28.5 m @ 100 m (93.5 ft @ 100 yds)
FoV @ 6x 7.2 m @ 100 m (23.6 ft @ 100 yds)
Coaxial Alignment <1.5 MoA between fields
Entrance Pupil 42.4mm
Exit Pupil 7mm
Fixed Focus Range 20m to infinity
Battery Type CL 1/3N (3v Lithium)
Battery Life 300 hours min., 2000 hours average
Exterior Finish Anodized aluminum, dark green color
Adjustment Resolution 0.5 minute of angle
Adjustment Range 120 minutes of angle
Base requirement Mil-Std-1913 "Picatinny Rail"
Attachment ARMS Levers
Environmental:
* - Waterproof:
* - Shockproof:
66 ft for 2 hours min
450 g's
Available Options Anti-Reflection Device
Google "specter coaxial alignment".
Singlestack Wonder
06-10-11, 20:14
There are a few different Rayethon sites which link back to Elcan. This is what I saw back in April when I came across it...
SpecterDR 1x/4x Specifications
Magnification 1x/4x
Length 153mm nominal
Width 71mm nominal
Height 72mm nominal
Weight 598g nominal
Reticle Dual-thickness range finding crosshair with user-selectable red dot
Ballistic Correction 200 to 600m for 5.56 NATO (in reticle)
Illumination Source Battery-powered LED
Crosshair Illumination 5 settings, night vision compatible
Red Dot Illumination 5 settings, night vision compatible
Eye Relief 70mm
Field of View 26 deg @ 1x, 6.5 deg @ 4x
FoV @ 1x 46.2 m @ 100 m (138.4 ft @ 100 yds)
FoV @ 4x 11.4 m @ 100 m (34.2 ft @ 100 yds)
Coaxial Alignment <1.5 MoA between fields
Entrance Pupil 32mm
Exit Pupil 8mm
Fixed Focus Range 20m to infinity
Battery Type CL 1/3N (3v Lithium)
Battery Life 300 hours min., 2000 hours average
Exterior Finish Anodized aluminum, dark green color
Adjustment Resolution 0.5 minute of angle
Adjustment Range 120 minutes of angle
Base requirement Mil-Std-1913 "Picatinny Rail"
Attachment ARMS Levers
Environmental:
* - Waterproof:
* - Shockproof:
66 ft for 2 hours min
450 g's
Available Options Anti-Reflection Device
*
SpecterDR 1.5x/6x Specifications
Magnification 1.5x/6x
Length 184mm nominal
Width 73.5mm nominal
Height 79.3mm nominal
Weight 700g nominal
Reticle Dual-thickness range finding crosshair with user-selectable red dot
Ballistic Correction 200 to 600m for 5.56 NATO (in reticle)
Illumination Source Battery-powered LED
Crosshair Illumination 5 settings, night vision compatible
Red Dot Illumination 5 settings, night vision compatible
Eye Relief 70mm
Field of View 16 deg @ 1x, 4 deg @ 4x
FoV @ 1.5x 28.5 m @ 100 m (93.5 ft @ 100 yds)
FoV @ 6x 7.2 m @ 100 m (23.6 ft @ 100 yds)
Coaxial Alignment <1.5 MoA between fields
Entrance Pupil 42.4mm
Exit Pupil 7mm
Fixed Focus Range 20m to infinity
Battery Type CL 1/3N (3v Lithium)
Battery Life 300 hours min., 2000 hours average
Exterior Finish Anodized aluminum, dark green color
Adjustment Resolution 0.5 minute of angle
Adjustment Range 120 minutes of angle
Base requirement Mil-Std-1913 "Picatinny Rail"
Attachment ARMS Levers
Environmental:
* - Waterproof:
* - Shockproof:
66 ft for 2 hours min
450 g's
Available Options Anti-Reflection Device
Google "specter coaxial alignment".
When I did, all references to the Specter DR were older (i.e. 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009). The coaxial alignment is no longer present in current Specter DR spec documents or manuals (that I can find). Supposedly they fixed the 1x4 POI shift in the 3rd generation models. Since the Specter DR Sales Manager will not return calls or e-mails it difficult to ascertain the facts.
Just because a company doesn't list a spec, it doesn't mean same doesn't exist anymore. The shift some were reporting was more than 1.5moa.
Another poster, I think it was BooneGA, brought up the point that the shift was still less than half of the 4moa dot.
Everytime I've been to Elcan's website, things are different. I think it's more a marketing than engineering function.
I was looking at the Short-Dots earlier this evening and ran across the 1-8X model.
SWFA is listing the scope on their website.
I added one to cart and it did not say "back order" or pre-order, etc.
I am calling them tomorrow to inquire further.
Link: http://swfa.com/Schmidt-Bender-1-8x24-Short-Dot-PM-II-30mm-Riflescope-P47551.aspx
From what I have read in the past about the Elcan's issue was that it was due to the A.R.M.S. mount and not the optic it self. If this is true, why havent they ditched the A.R.M.S. mount?
I was looking at the Short-Dots earlier this evening and ran across the 1-8X model.
SWFA is listing the scope on their website.
I added one to cart and it did not say "back order" or pre-order, etc.
I am calling them tomorrow to inquire further.
Link: http://swfa.com/Schmidt-Bender-1-8x24-Short-Dot-PM-II-30mm-Riflescope-P47551.aspx
Yeah, its been on there for a while. No one has had theirs shipped who I know had "ordered" theirs. SWFA is known for putting products on their site before they are actually on inventory.
The last rumor on the 1-8x short dot was October, but it is just a rumor. The factory hasn't committed to it.
It was suppose to be released in August of last year. I wouldn't count on October or even consider it as an option until it is actually on a shelf.
Yeah, its been on there for a while. No one has had theirs shipped who I know had "ordered" theirs. SWFA is known for putting products on their site before they are actually on inventory.
The last rumor on the 1-8x short dot was October, but it is just a rumor. The factory hasn't committed to it.
It was suppose to be released in August of last year. I wouldn't count on October or even consider it as an option until it is actually on a shelf.
I called SWFA this morning, they said the scope is not available for sale or pre-order at this time. Sales person stated that the product was placed on the website for advertising and informational purposes.
Then, I called Schmidt and Bender USA and spoke with a nice lady there. She stated that the current information received is placing the release date as November or December of 2011. I asked how many versions would be available and was told one with the new reticle shown on the SWFA page.
I also inquired regarding the scopes features, if the turrets were locking, etc. and she could offer no detailed information because there have been changes made to the scope since SHOT. All of the testing is being completed in Germany and they have been working on some parallax issues (from 1X-8X the parallax was inconsistent) and the illumination, according to the S&B staff.
It appears that the 1-8X Short Dot model will be released sometime in the near future if the information I was given is accurate.
SkiDevil
parishioner
07-01-11, 10:47
I'm wondering if you could give some links to some actual first hand documented complaints about the Elcan shifting zero and other issues.
Pretty sure this guy is a Ranger.
I just thought I'd add to my previous post since this thread seems to have taken off. The POI shift is present in at least 3 out of twelve units on my team. Guys tend to zero at 4X and never really bother checking at 1X. My guess is that more of them out there have the shift but people aren't noticing it. I suppose the shift is something that could possibly be readjusted by the manufacturer. Also, seeing what I have, even if mine didn't have noticeable POI shift I would be constantly worrying that something would fall out of adjustment or something and cause a shift. I could see this happening if crap gets into the external adjustment mechanism or the unit gets bumped and something moves internally.
I agree with some of the previous posters. Great glass and battery life. The BDC is pretty damn close out to at least 800 m with 118LR out of the medium MK17 barrel.
I haven't actually seen many problems with the ARMS mounts.
I guess to sum it up, my personal experience in actually using the thing on patrols in the desert would consist of:
Pros:
Clear glass, decent FOV, good illum, good BDC, good battery life, durable, 1X-4X switching faster than traditional scope
Cons:
Pretty heavy, POI shift between 1X and 4X noticeable in some units, questionable mount
For anyone willing to accept the possible issues I would recommend taping 24 oz of tire weights or something onto a toilet paper tube and taping it onto your rail. Some people might not mind a pound and a half up there but I, personally, would try to get something lighter. Also, I wouldn't bother with a supplemental mini red dot. What's the point? You have a 1X red dot in the unit itself.
If they make one that weighs 16oz and doesn't have the POI shift I would buy one in a heartbeat.
This guy is a SEAL. While its not a "first hand" account, he witnessed it and I believe him witnessing something carries a little more weight than what the average guy at the range witnessed. Take it as you will.
i have a lot of buddies who have had the same poi shift issue. the few guys i know running the issued elcan are still running dr sights on top because of the eye relief on the elcan. i just don't see the point of having a 1-4x scope if you still have to mount another red dot on top of it. i'd rather have a fixed power with red dot on top. if you're choosing between issued optics i would say that the acog with dr set up works well...regardless of the cheek weld issue a lot of guys have been running it for a while now and love it. if you're purchasing optics on your own i would just buy a short dot. just my thoughts.
HOP is an Industry Professional on the site.
I'm fairly certain this topic has been covered ad nausem. I would do a SEARCH function.
Here's my take on the Elcan DR et al.
A know a lot of SOF guys who like them.
I also know alot of SOF guys who do not.
I have owned one, not sure which evo it was. My RET was amber which my eyes & brain do not prefer in most terra firma diurnal engagements. I would prefer RED which it is now.
The main issues have been the Zero shift & the ARMS mount.
There have been a number of units, elements, TEAMs who have procurred them and when implementing the optics (read Zeroing) several of them literally falling off the weapon from recoil impulse etc. & ZERO shift that turned a lot of people off.
Understandably so in any Danger Close / In Extremis situation etc. ;-/
That reality has been difficult to overcome. Having said that, some people contend that the levers were not adjusted correctly. Some feel it is an inherent design flaw etc. Some people don't care for the owner or his business ethics etc.
I'm ONLY disseminating info I have and not making judgment regarding this.
As D90King says the S&B Short DOT is/was the shizzle.
Do a search function and it will ellucidate itself to you as D90King alludes to.
There are a number of new variable power optics (i.e. 1X6 1X8 et al) that would probably be more efficacious in your endeavor. Again research, read, assimilate data & process it.
The concept of flipping the optic for optimal shot placement once threat is aquired is no doubt ideal. But the reality of having your optic fall off or shift in POA/POI is a bigger conceptual issue in my eyes...
Here's a fairly decent link to a test addressing POA/POI, ZERO shift change specifically.
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1806056
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e225/teehee321/Elcantest.jpg
Overall, to me if Elcan can eliminate (or has) those concerns I think it's a potentially good optic. Weight is a moot point in my eyes since any decent varaiable is going to weigh more due to glass elements and glass quality anyways.
Hope that helps answer your question.
YMMV...
This was from an Industry Professional in this thread.
I am having a hard time warmin up to Elcan.
They burned me in the past.
But hey, so did EoTech and I have an EXPS now, so if Elcan can show that they have grown past ARMS, zero-shift, battery life, weight, and robustness issues, maybe they will be viable.
When we received our Elcan Specters, many were eager to try them out. We had both the 1-4X and the 1.5-6X models. After using them for a while, nobody ended up keeping them on.
The external adjustment mechanism seems to be susceptible to impacts and jarring, even minor impacts that happen during the course of normal patroling and mounted operations. Take one hard fall (up in the mountains you'll take many), and your zero will likely be off. It's unit standard for zeroes to be confirmed weekly when possible. The guys running ELCAN's almost universally had to make adjustments weekly, while those using ACOG's / Aimpoints / Leupolds / and even EOTECH's rarely had to touch anything.
Now, onto POI shift. At 32M, the POI shift betwen the high and low end of the magnifaction spectrum is generally not noticeable. But push it out to 100 and it becomes noticeable. Now, POI shift was not an issue on ALL the Specters, but was enough of a problem to be considered "common."
Unfortunately, these issues ruined an otherwise great optic. The reticle / BDC is useful and well thought out. The illumination is great. The glass is top notch. But in the end...consistency, reliability and robustness are paramount. Because of that, nobody decided to leave the Specters on their rifles.
This is just my experience, yours may differ. If the SpecterDR works for you, then great. That just hasn't been my experience.
EzGoingKev
07-02-11, 07:37
This is from a thread on Lightfighter -
"My m4 was juiced up with a magpul ACS stock, Elcan spectre DR, KAC suppressor, tangodown grip and an insight m3x weaponlight.
My Elcan performed exceptionally. My zero remained the same throughout the deployment flipping through 1-4x several times a day. Early mornings I would throw her on 1x with a very lowly illuminated reticule so I could keep both eyes open and simply put the red dot on what I wanted dead. As soon as we got sunlight I would throw it to 4 power and turn off the illum. Any time I was about to hit a building or group of buildings I would go to 1x and crank up the illum. It's taken a lot of wear and tear and still made me very happy with every penny (a lot of them) that I spent on it."
Here is a link to this Marine Scout/Snipers excellent post about his fighting load out used during his time in Afghanistan from 09/10 to 04/11.
http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9046084761/m/1711043433?r=96920061763#96920061763
CageFighter
07-15-11, 22:52
the Elcan gets my vote! love the reticle for my SCAR-17s!!
What would be the approximate range at 8X?
Alaskapopo
08-03-11, 17:53
What would be the approximate range at 8X?
I think that is relative to your target. I have only shot out to 600 yards but at that range on standard 10 inch plates I can hit them on 6x with my Swarovski. I have read on this site and others saying 10x at a 1000 yards is doable. I have also read a general rule of thumb is 1x per 100 yards. So if that were true 800 yards should be fine with 8x. Hope this helps.
Pat
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