View Full Version : Order of upgrades?
I'm going to be starting with the plain LMT CQB MRP DI Rifle and I'd like to get my priorities straight when it comes to upgrade.
I have a general idea what I'd like, but this being my first rifle and all, I'd appreciate it if people could chime in on order of importance.
I'm looking to add a Geissele SSA 2-Stage, Aimpoint H-1/T-1, Battle Comp Muzzle Brake, and Troy Folding Battlesights. Adding that up now, thats close to $1,100 in accessories.. ouch :suicide:
Anyways, I pretty much broke the bank with my rifle so its going to be a slow process of gearing it up - any suggestions on how to start?
Thanks!
EDIT: And I still have to get a Pelican 1700 on top of it all, argh.. time to get back to work!
jonconsiglio
06-08-11, 04:33
Irons first. Take your time on those until you're comfortable with the rifle. If this has a defensive role at all, add a light. From there, you can start looking at your optics.
I'm on the fence about the triggers. I think they're a nice enhancement, but if you aren't shooting for accuracy at distance (just my personal opinion here), it takes less of a priority.
The BattleComps are nice and I have a couple plus I run the Triple Taps. By the end of this year I have a feeling I'll be back to flash hider mounts with the exception of one.
So, get your Troys (or KAC, DD, etc.) and maybe a light. Spend some time on the fundamentals, learn to control the recoil for faster follow up shots with your body first and at least become proficient with the irons. From there, get your optic and then if you still feel it necessary, start looking at the triggers and brakes.
Jonathan
Hi Jonathan,
Thanks for the information, its a huge help.
I do have irons at the moment, just the standard LMT fixed front and rear so switching to Troys would mainly be for aesthetic reasons.
I should look into lights. The purpose is definitely defense and then plinking after that. I suppose I never gave it much thought because I never imagined myself using one much, but it would probably be the most important thing come defense.
One thing I've read about the 2 stage triggers is the benefits in CQB situations which I could see tying into defense.. which is the only real reason I'm considering it. I'm not to concerned about anything beyond 200yards.
Dave
Jon gave you good advice. until you gain a decent level of proficiency with the rifle and send several hundred dollars of ammo downrange in good quality practice, you most likely will not have the sensitivity to appreciate a comp or upgraded trigger.
Go Shoot the Gun! (http://tacticalyellowvisor.net/8343/126721.html)
The money you can save on accessories you can pay for a training class to learn for yourself what you want/need on the gun.
Rob,
I just read you article for the umpteenth time and it always makes me smile. I don't know how much money it saved me by shooting the gun vs. buying the add ons. Thanks for the advice.
Eric
I agree with John and Rob. Check out the link there is good advice there. I would use it the way it is for a while. It will help and save you money. It came with a GI sling so I would add a light first. Followed by a two point sling (my preference) and then a RDS. To me the light is a must in a self defense role. Good luck.
Failure2Stop
06-08-11, 07:14
There is no real reason to dump the sights that came with your LMT unless you are going to slide a magnifier behind your RDS (whenever that might be) or go the more or less traditional scope route.
If you already have functional iron sights the next "upgrade" that would most benefit you would be a decent light in a decent mount and the skill to use it. Easiest solution: VTac Light mount, SF G2. Even lacking training to employ the light to it's fullest, I am sure you have enough sense to figure out how to use the light (at least temporarily).
After that would come the optic. I am one of the first guys to espouse the value of a quality optic, but irons and a light will get more done than an optic with no light. Anyway, there is not a need to master the irons first, but a working knowledge and proficiency are necessary if they are on the gun.
At this point I would also get a decent 2-point sling on QDs.
After that, go shoot.
Push the setup as hard as you can.
It will make far more improvement in your skillset than simply dropping in parts, and you will truly appreciate what those items do and do not do when you put them on.
Littlelebowski
06-08-11, 07:18
You don't need the fancy trigger. Take a class. Take a class.
A two point adjustable sling would be my first recommendation, followed by ammo and magazines, followed by a light.
Last time I checked, Blue Force Gear was still running 50% off on OD Green colored Vickers slings.
So Shoot the Gun! (http://tacticalyellowvisor.net/8343/126721.html)
The money you can save on accessories you can pay for a training class to learn for yourself what you want/need on the gun.
Great advice Rob! I remember when vert grips came out and everyone and their brother had one so I too thought I should have one. So I dropped $65 on a vert grip just to find out that I don't really like it or shoot better with it. Again, great advice Rob!
I'm looking to add a Geissele SSA 2-Stage, Aimpoint H-1/T-1, Battle Comp Muzzle Brake, and Troy Folding Battlesights. Adding that up now, thats close to $1,100 in accessories.. ouch :suicide:
I'd never put any of that stuff on a fighting AR. I suppose a case could be made for the AIMPOINT.... but all that other fluff is silly nonsense.
I agree with failure2stop, John and Rob. Check out the link there is good advice there. I would use it the way it is for a while. It will help and save you money. It came with a GI sling so I would add a light first. Followed by a two point sling (my preference) and then a RDS. To me the light is a must in a self defense role. Good luck.
jonconsiglio
06-08-11, 10:34
I didn't realize you already had irons on the gun. I'd stick with those for now over the Troys.
The LMT irons are very well made and will serve you well while saving a few hundred bucks.
lifebreath
06-08-11, 11:00
Keep the LMT sights and use the Revised Improved Battlesight Zero. Then: 1) sling, 2) Aimpoint, 3) Battlecomp, 4)Geisselle. The LMT sights are robust and well-made and will work great with the Aimpoint.
Just my newbie $0.02 worth.
Adding that up now, thats close to $1,100 in accessories.. ouch
If nothing else, buy $1.1K in ammo and trigger time.
Once you've figured out how your carbine shoots and fits go to Stage 2 (gadgets).
I would shoot the gun and solve any deficiency with an upgrade/replacement so it can fit in the role you intend for it.
Since you are going to shoot it and train with it, a sling is needed. Since it will be for HD, a light is needed, otherwise shoot it.
Timberwolf
06-08-11, 11:23
You don't need the fancy trigger. Take a class. Take a class.
This. I'm curious as to how often people buy a bunch of add-ons for their rifles, then decide that they don't like/don't need/can't use it once they actually shoot them or use them in a class, etc.
Your first upgrade should be to scratch it up a bit and get it over with.
Don't add a bad lever or any other gay lever, just learn to shoot it as is plus a red dot.
This. I'm curious as to how often people buy a bunch of add-ons for their rifles, then decide that they don't like/don't need/can't use it once they actually shoot them or use them in a class, etc.
I've done it...I thought I wanted an AFG, VFG, quad rail etc.
I started with a Bushy, RRA and then a BCM with DD rail.
I thought I was better off buying cheap stripped lowers and assembling them myself. Not bad but in the end I sold them all (3) and bought 3 blem BCM lowers from Grant and made a couple bucks.
Now I have BCM middie's with MOE handgaurds, G2 in a IWC mount and a BFG/Vickers sling and I call it a day. One has a T-1 and the other has a DD fixed rear and no optic.
I do have a BCM middie with a VTAC 13" rail for use with a Burris 1-4.
No BAD levers, pods, empty rails anymore.
It took a while. It was quite a progression but shooting lots of rounds taught me I hated what I had. I wish I would have done the research and listened to the solid advice I've eventually followed here.
If I can take anything positive out of my progression, it's that I know I'm happy with what I have and have no need to look for the next, best thing to hang of my rifles.
Best,
Harold
sights, more mags, light, red dot, sling, more mags, sling, frou-frou...
if it already comes with LMT sights, just move down the list...
What don't you guys like about the BAD lever?
I went through 4 rails SF, Troy, DD and VTAC. I also tried an AFG. None of it was necessary and the AFG just didn't work for me.
I have MOE handguards and lights on all of my guns now and they all wear a 2 point BFG sling.
I wasted a bunch of money and time and ended up with simple and inexpensive solutions for what I wanted.
jonconsiglio
06-08-11, 14:41
I ran BAD Levers for a while and they really sped up my malfunction drills, but also had me spending less time on standard clearance drills.
A few months back my gun took a hard blow and broke my BAD which caused the bolt to hold open every few rounds. It took a minute to figure out what it was and I took it off from there. I thought I'd keep running them after that, but within a few weeks or so, they were all gone.
Now, I really like stippled AFG's, but as much control as they give me from an ideal position, they also limit me in many other positions. I've been through all kinds of vert grips and handstops and I think I'm going to settle with LaRue FUGs, but still not sure. I like the Gear Sector vert grips a lot too.
As I change the way I do things, my equipment changes as well, which is fine as long as we're not just going buying gear for no reason but buying it as we improve or adapt to our style of shooting at the time.
BAD Levers, Triple Taps and AFGs are great when the main focus is on speed and split times, but once you move on to low light shooting and realize that accuracy is of the utmost importance in ALL situations, sometimes things will change that work better with what we're doing.
Like pressure switches, for example. I like using them but I don't care for the dual pads as there's an increased risk of activating one or the other when it's not wanted, so it makes the most sense to me to run two separate pads in different locations where I don't have to alter my grip, day or night. Low light shooting with NV is new to me, but I'm not just jumping in because of what I see others doing. I'm taking a couple classes and consulting with some SME's that use these things in the real world first.
A few months back my gun took a hard blow and broke my BAD which caused the bolt to hold open every few rounds. It took a minute to figure out what it was and I took it off from there. I thought I'd keep running them after that, but within a few weeks or so, they were all gone.
That is part of the reason I dumped the extras. Nothing wrong with the part or concept...just one more piece to break
Harold
lifebreath
06-08-11, 15:04
sights, more mags, light, red dot, sling, more mags, sling, frou-frou...
Mags & ammo ... can never have too much!
Sciuirse Morrigna
06-08-11, 17:55
If it has a defensive role (and you said it does), and it has irons (you said it does), I'd buy:
Good mags (USGI, PMAG or H&K -- if you really want sticker shock), a 2-point sling, and weapon light and mount plus a case of surplus ammo. I'd buy those all at once.
Zero your sights, run that case of ammo through your mags (all of them).
After that, the RDS.
After that, the flip-up rear sight if you MAY add a magnifier or conventional scope in the future, or if you prefer to have the irons out of the way until needed (which I prefer).
If it comes with a decent LPK, and being an LMT it should, I wouldn't fuss over the trigger, especially for a defensive gun -- for a dedicated target gun, ok. Pick the muzzle device you like. Personally, I don't see replacing the trigger or muzzle device as at all a requirement, they are a preference, and I'd place them dead last for upgrades because of that.
I'd never put any of that stuff on a fighting AR. I suppose a case could be made for the AIMPOINT.... but all that other fluff is silly nonsense.
I would not put a trigger in the fluff category either. Being that this is your first rifle ever you do not have a point of reference so you will not appreciate a good trigger.
After you shoot the rifle for a while then you may want to consider one. Obviously, try one first if you can. But if you do a search you will find a number of triggers "haters" here.
Not to generalize but many of the people I met who "poo-poo" aftermarket triggers mostly only own guns with rack grade triggers.
Thanks John. Makes sense.
EzGoingKev
06-08-11, 19:12
I love how people just give out advice without asking any questions to establish a foundation to go from.
outrider627
06-08-11, 19:37
I'm going to be starting with the plain LMT CQB MRP DI Rifle and I'd like to get my priorities straight when it comes to upgrade.
I have a general idea what I'd like, but this being my first rifle and all, I'd appreciate it if people could chime in on order of importance.
I'm looking to add a Geissele SSA 2-Stage, Aimpoint H-1/T-1, Battle Comp Muzzle Brake, and Troy Folding Battlesights. Adding that up now, thats close to $1,100 in accessories.. ouch :suicide:
Anyways, I pretty much broke the bank with my rifle so its going to be a slow process of gearing it up - any suggestions on how to start?
Thanks!
EDIT: And I still have to get a Pelican 1700 on top of it all, argh.. time to get back to work!
I bought a shitload of parts since I got my rifle instead of buying more ammo or taking a class. Big mistake on my part. I recently realized that I didn't need 90% of the shit I bought, so now I'm gonna try to sell most of it and save up for ammo and a class. Learn from my mistake.
Trigger? Don't even think about this for a while.
Aimpoint? Yes. If you find a R-1 or H-1 for cheap, jump on it. Aimpoint Micros are cool. :D
BattleComp? Save for later if you really want a brake.
Troy folding sights? Forget about it for now. Stick with your LMTs until you figure out what mount height you want for a RDS and then change sights if you feel you need to.
Essentially what everyone else has said:
1. Ammo
2. Mags (As many as you can get. Someone's always offering free shipping or discount packs.)
3. Sling
4. Light + Mount
5. Aimpoint + Mount
Everything else such as stocks, grips, etc is personal preference. I do recommend LaRue index clips for rail covers. The only downside is they're only sold in packs of 72 clips, which may or may not be enough for the rail on the CQB MRP.
Thanks for all the responses - there's a wealth of great information here and I do appreciate it.
I'm curious as to the reasoning behind many mags. I was going to start out with 3, but what are the benefits of having more then 3?
Think of magazines like winter tires or a car battery. They only last so long. Longer with proper care but the get worn out and need to be replaced.
Thanks for all the responses - there's a wealth of great information here and I do appreciate it.
I'm curious as to the reasoning behind many mags. I was going to start out with 3, but what are the benefits of having more then 3?
With only 3 mags at the range, you are going to spend a LOT of time reloading your mags. Bring as many mags as you can to the range, that way you can spend more time shooting and NOT reloading mags.
I took 34 mags with me last range session, some were 20 rounders but most were 30's. Yes, I used them all and I found out which I could depend on. More mags are good.
I love how people just give out advice without asking any questions to establish a foundation to go from.
Welcome to the internet!
:jester:
Almost without fail, respondents will answer with that is best for them, or they like, or they think others should be doing.
This is why it is imperative that people get out and use their gun in the way that they think best suits them or that they are most interested in. Getting some training first is a good idea as well. And doing so will ultimately save the shooter a lot of money. If they're not taking long-range shots the trigger may not be something they need/want. If they're not doing run-n-gun or CQB-style shooting they may not have much use for an RDS. Neither of those are inexpensive things to add to a firearm only to find out later that you don't have any use for them.
lifebreath
06-08-11, 20:47
With only 3 mags at the range, you are going to spend a LOT of time reloading your mags. Bring as many mags as you can to the range, that way you can spend more time shooting and NOT reloading mags.
I took 34 mags with me last range session, some were 20 rounders but most were 30's. Yes, I used them all and I found out which I could depend on. More mags are good.
This. It's great to sit at home and load up 20 or 30 mags. Then you're GTG whenever and whatever.
As others have said, I'd suggest staying with the stock rifle and just go shoot it for a while. Then when you decide what role you want for the gun, i.e. plinker, HD/SD, SHTF, competition, etc., then you can start giving thought as to what "upgrades" you want. Until then, just go out and have fun with it.
I own two complete ARs, one is an LMT MRP with the LMT two-stage trigger and the other has an LMT lower with an SSA trigger. While I think the SSA is very nice, and better (for me) than the LMT, I wouldn't say the LMT is bad. I don't think the SSA is so much better than the LMT two-stage that I'd replace it. I have a feeling the LMT trigger will stay in there for a long time.
Good luck and have fun.
I love how people just give out advice without asking any questions to establish a foundation to go from.
He asked for advice. A bunch of us shared our thoughts and ideas. We tried to be helpful. Do you have anything positive to share with the OP?
Welcome to the internet!
:jester:
Almost without fail, respondents will answer with that is best for them, or they like, or they think others should be doing.
This is why it is imperative that people get out and use their gun in the way that they think best suits them or that they are most interested in. Getting some training first is a good idea as well. And doing so will ultimately save the shooter a lot of money. If they're not taking long-range shots the trigger may not be something they need/want. If they're not doing run-n-gun or CQB-style shooting they may not have much use for an RDS. Neither of those are inexpensive things to add to a firearm only to find out later that you don't have any use for them.
I agree, and I have learned a lot of this the hard way myself. And it applies to any firearm, not just ARs. I recently got my girl into shooting, who had never ever done anything like this. Bought her a 10/22 for Christmas, and a couple of bulk boxes of ammo, and just let her shoot and shoot. She would see people at the range with red dots, scopes, etc. And as most people know, there are endless accessories for 10/22s, but I wouldn't add anything to it for quite some time. Now that she has a few thousand rounds through it, we added a auto bolt release and extended mag release. Why? Because she figured out how it improves function. Once she figured out the sights, we upgraded those to Fire Sights. Now that she can shoot to 25 yards, we are putting a small scope on it. As her shooting improves, we will upgrade the trigger. The point is, allow your skill to determine when and what you upgrade...once you realize the limitations of your gear, then upgrade.
jonconsiglio
06-09-11, 08:13
I love how people just give out advice without asking any questions to establish a foundation to go from.
I understand what you're saying as that's very common with anything, but in this particular instance, within the first three posts, the OP stated it was for defensive use primarily then plinking from there.
Of course, this being his first AR, that may change. No matter the use, we'll see Trident recommending Bad-ASS selectors and Geissele (not an insult at all here) because he shoots for precision, you'll see markm all but suggesting staying with a bone stock AR (but at least now maybe the A5 ;) ), a couple guys saying to take a class first, then maybe me complaining about something breaking and going down the list of what worked last week and why I moved on.
All types will come out and post thinking they're helping the op, and generally they are in a way, even if it's not related to what the op is planning to do with the rifle, as long as the asker uses some common sense and maybe asking some defining questions to see where the posters are all coming from. If I recommend a 3-10x and a Geissele precision trigger (not familiar with them all), chances are I shoot for accuracy. It I recommend a T1 and a stock trigger we know I'm not using it for precision. Of course it would be best if I clarified if t was defensive or for plinking, but he most likely will be able to see what does and does not pertain to him.
This is a lighthearted post, just trying to point out that it's up to us to clarify and state our backgrounds here and it's up to the op to sort through some of it at times, unfortunately.
I understand what you're saying as that's very common with anything, but in this particular instance, within the first three posts, the OP stated it was for defensive use primarily then plinking from there.
Of course, this being his first AR, that may change. No matter the use, we'll see Trident recommending Bad-ASS selectors and Geissele (not an insult at all here) because he shoots for precision, you'll see markm all but suggesting staying with a bone stock AR (but at least now maybe the A5 ;) ), a couple guys saying to take a class first, then maybe me complaining about something breaking and going down the list of what worked last week and why I moved on.
All types will come out and post thinking they're helping the op, and generally they are in a way, even if it's not related to what the op is planning to do with the rifle, as long as the asker uses some common sense and maybe asking some defining questions to see where the posters are all coming from. If I recommend a 3-10x and a Geissele precision trigger (not familiar with them all), chances are I shoot for accuracy. It I recommend a T1 and a stock trigger we know I'm not using it for precision. Of course it would be best if I clarified if t was defensive or for plinking, but he most likely will be able to see what does and does not pertain to him.
This is a lighthearted post, just trying to point out that it's up to us to clarify and state our backgrounds here and it's up to the op to sort through some of it at times, unfortunately.
;)
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19307
Failure2Stop
06-09-11, 08:57
This is a lighthearted post, just trying to point out that it's up to us to clarify and state our backgrounds here and it's up to the op to sort through some of it at times, unfortunately.
Also remeber that M4Carbine.net is a resource. People other than the OP will read it (around 900 others so far), to gain knowledge and make decisions without having to create their own threads on the topic, thus the inclusion of the "search" feature here.
Answering questions reaches much further than a single poster.
jonconsiglio
06-09-11, 09:33
;)
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19307
Ok, good point... I've found myself asking people their background and what their personal long term experience is with a product that they're praising or bashing. When it goes unanswered, I usually have all the info I need and ignore their other comments on products.
As for it reaching wider than the members here, that makes sense too. I guess I look at it from a different perspective than someone new to firearms and forget that there are a lot out there that hear one thing that they want to hear and run with it, regardless of who posted the info in the first place.
I appreciate you guys getting me to look at it from a different perspective.
Jonathan
Sciuirse Morrigna
06-09-11, 11:04
I'm curious as to the reasoning behind many mags. I was going to start out with 3, but what are the benefits of having more then 3?
Because they don't last forever.
Because some of us remember the AWB when you couldn't get them at all, or if you did, you paid $50+ for a $10 magazine.
I personally don't like loading my magazines at the range, so I tend to load up as many rounds as I plan to shoot (obviously that's more than 3 mags) at home, and just bring all the mags.
Another reason to bring a lot, if not all of your mags to the range is to function check them.
Littlelebowski
06-09-11, 12:41
I agree Oldstate, I owned 3 colt AR's before I acquired my first real trigger which was a SSA, I instantly saw the light and my shooting ability has never looked back.
For precision or carbine work? If the latter, which classes did you take them to?
Well, what the heck are you going to use it for? A comp rifle is going to have distinctly different priorities than a defensive rifle etcetera.
For a defensive (or I suppose offensive) rifle, there are some simple upgrades (provided you have magazines and ammunition covered)
Quality:
-Sights (you already have those)
-White light
-Sling (Ares/VCAS/VTAC etc)
Only after those bases are covered, look into a RDS. The most important thing to do is actually go out and use the damn thing. Far too many people spend their coin making their rifles look pretty instead of on ammunition and training to become proficient in its use.
jonconsiglio
06-09-11, 13:49
In the third post, I think, he stated it was for defensive use and plinking.
For precision or carbine work? If the latter, which classes did you take them to?
I don't see the logic here. If by "carbine work" you me close quarters shooting, a good trigger is not necessary...but neither is a carbine. The argument can be made that a pistol is more than adequate for HD for several reasons.
The carbine offers the ability to make shots at varying distances and thus makes the gun a more versatile choice. A good trigger helps dramatically in making shots at 50+ yards and, save the cost, offers no disadvantage for anything else provided it is made to standards such as Geissele's. It helps the shooter to wring out all the accuracy the carbine is capable of.
http://vickerstactical.com/tactical-tips/accuracy/
So, other than cost, what is the disadvantage?
jonconsiglio
06-09-11, 15:27
I don't see the logic here. If by "carbine work" you me close quarters shooting, a good trigger is not necessary...but neither is a carbine. The argument can be made that a pistol is more than adequate for HD for several reasons.
The carbine offers the ability to make shots at varying distances and thus makes the gun a more versatile choice. A good trigger helps dramatically in making shots at 50+ yards and, save the cost, offers no disadvantage for anything else provided it is made to standards such as Geissele's. It helps the shooter to wring out all the accuracy the carbine is capable of.
http://vickerstactical.com/tactical-tips/accuracy/
So, other than cost, what is the disadvantage?
I like a nice trigger and have a couple KAC 2 stage triggers. I don't know about anyone else, but I've seen a couple guys run their standard triggers faster than their SSA's, yet just as accurate for the gun they were using shooting at 50 yards. I like the KAC and Geissele but I don't see a huge improvement. An improvement, yes, just not a huge one since very little of my AR shooting is longer range for accuracy, so of course I'll see it differently that a precision shooter. Just the other day I shot three 10 shot groups of 2.25" to 3.25" at 100 meters with a Colt mil spec trigger.
If I need amazing precision, I'll grab my Barrett 98b. On a side note, I shoot my MP5 extremely well and that triggeris nothing to write home about.
Given the choice though, I'd be happy with a Geissele SSA or KAC two stage in all my guns.
As for LL's comment, it seems that all he asked Trident was that when he saw the light, was it in CQB work or precision work and what classes he was attending when he saw this improvement. I didn't see any negative comment there about triggers.
I don't see the logic here. If by "carbine work" you me close quarters shooting, a good trigger is not necessary...but neither is a carbine. The argument can be made that a pistol is more than adequate for HD for several reasons.
The carbine offers the ability to make shots at varying distances and thus makes the gun a more versatile choice. A good trigger helps dramatically in making shots at 50+ yards and, save the cost, offers no disadvantage for anything else provided it is made to standards such as Geissele's. It helps the shooter to wring out all the accuracy the carbine is capable of.
http://vickerstactical.com/tactical-tips/accuracy/
So, other than cost, what is the disadvantage?
That seems like a very long way to go 'round simply to come back to justifying your position that someone needs a $200+ trigger to hit anything.
A good trigger does not help with making shots at 50+ yards, a firm grasp of the fundamentals of shooting does. Cost is nowhere near the only disadvantage to an aftermarket trigger. Increase in incidence of breakage with all but one or two brands, non-standard parts should you break something in the field, and the impact on shot-to-shot speed that a two stage trigger has when trying to shoot fast, close are the biggest.
If you cannot shoot within the limits of surplus ammo in a chrome-lined barrel with the stock trigger the problem is YOU, not the hardware.
For precision or carbine work? If the latter, which classes did you take them to?
Or what drills or other application allowed you to determine the improvement?
That seems like a very long way to go 'round simply to come back to justifying your position that someone needs a $200+ trigger to hit anything.
This is absolutely not my position and based on my posts that is quite a stretch. A good trigger makes a good shooter better and (along with a FF barrel) brings out the full mechanical accuracy of the firearm.
A good trigger does not help with making shots at 50+ yards, a firm grasp of the fundamentals of shooting does. Cost is nowhere near the only disadvantage to an aftermarket trigger. Increase in incidence of breakage with all but one or two brands, non-standard parts should you break something in the field, and the impact on shot-to-shot speed that a two stage trigger has when trying to shoot fast, close are the biggest.
I have never mentioned anything but Geissele triggers. Personally I would sacrifice a few milliseconds of speed.
If you cannot shoot within the limits of surplus ammo in a chrome-lined barrel with the stock trigger the problem is YOU, not the hardware.
Agreed. Plus you shouldn't be attending classes or doing anything but bench shooting until you can as you are a safety liability IMHO.
I would keep my stock trigger around in case there was a breakdown.
jonconsiglio
06-09-11, 16:30
A class is where you learn those fundamentals. Which I believe is the reason both LittleLebowski and rob_s both asked Trident what is frame of reference is.
This is a very important thing to know when people are giving advice.
As far as the basic shooting fundamentals Rob_s mentioned, the NRA Basic Rifle may be a more appropriate course. My club has been hosting carbine classes for a few years and now requires this class for new members wishing to attend carbine classes.
I personally would be more comfortable with a qualifier and I think a well known instructor is doing this.
Just to be clear, I'm not recommending a trigger to the OP but rather addressing the "silly trigger" comments. Most of the great advice on this forum is based on experience or sound reasoning/logic. The trigger debate is a logical one IMO and is very much dependent on point of reference.
My concern for a new shooter is that some advice may lead them to believe that there is no difference between a stock trigger and a Geissele.
Doc Safari
06-09-11, 17:15
Your first upgrade should be to scratch it up a bit and get it over with.
This is wise advice that I personally can vouch for. Until you get to the point that the new has worn off and you've "smacked the pretty off it" as someone said, then you are going to be self-conscious of its appearance and that may stifle your performance with it. I still suffer from the phobia of dropping my mags in the dirt. I deliberately try to keep some older beat up (but functional) mags on hand just for matches and the like.
jonconsiglio
06-09-11, 17:26
As far as the basic shooting fundamentals Rob_s mentioned, the NRA Basic Rifle may be a more appropriate course. My club has been hosting carbine classes for a few years and now requires this class for new members wishing to attend carbine classes.
I personally would be more comfortable with a qualifier and I think a well known instructor is doing this.
Just to be clear, I'm not recommending a trigger to the OP but rather addressing the "silly trigger" comments. Most of the great advice on this forum is based on experience or sound reasoning/logic. The trigger debate is a logical one IMO and is very much dependent on point of reference.
My concern for a new shooter is that some advice may lead them to believe that there is no difference between a stock trigger and a Geissele.
I understand what you're saying. That definitely goes both ways were one could see it as no difference and another could see it as a must. The reality is that it can be a benefit to some if you have the fundamentals down.
When one posts a video of them slapping the hell out of $250 trigger, it makes you wonder what they're gaining. That's not an insulting comment, but an honest observation.
I do understand your point.
Both of them chase my posts around like jealous little girls...that's why they are asking...I hardly made a presence in this thread..yet my fanclub made an appearance.
Thanks for the cool commentary on your part as usual though.
You need to understand that nobody has any personal feelings about you in this, we are simply asking you to explain your frame of reference. Why is this so difficult? Nobody has been anything but civil to you in this thread, and it would be nice if you could return the favor instead of resorting to name-calling.
I understand that it is easier to take things personally and get upset than it is to answer the questions posed.
As far as the basic shooting fundamentals Rob_s mentioned, the NRA Basic Rifle may be a more appropriate course. My club has been hosting carbine classes for a few years and now requires this class for new members wishing to attend carbine classes.
I do not recommend them only because I have never attended one, but I am anxious to get to an Appleseed shoot as I think they may be a great way to accomplish some of this as well.
But here again we come to a frame of reference issue for some people. A Pat Rogers class is different than a Randy Cain class, and I will put Randy's 3-day carbine class up against any NRA course, and would recommend his class as the single best starting point for a new AR shooter that I have ever attended. If someone is watching training videos or reading AARs of other classes and assuming that all "carbine courses" are created equal and about the run-n-gun, they are doing themselves a disservice. Randy's class will take you from retention distance to 200 yards in three days and will stress the fundamentals and TEACH the fundamentals in a way that virtually nobody else I'm aware of can.
spamsammich
06-09-11, 17:52
One thing I've read about the 2 stage triggers is the benefits in CQB situations which I could see tying into defense.. which is the only real reason I'm considering it. I'm not to concerned about anything beyond 200yards.
Dave
This is what I have beef with. With this being his first rifle, with probably little frame of reference, the errornet has struck again. Having run a SSA and lots of stock triggers, I would hands down recommend a plain jane single stage trigger at CQB distances. He simply will not be getting his money's worth out of that Geissele trigger and would be better off with more mags and ammo.
My SSA has its place and with practice I can probably run it as fast as my single stage triggers but as it stands I have actually fumbled a couple rapid cadence drills with it and prefer to use that lower for distance shooting.
John_Burns
06-09-11, 19:33
My frame of reference comes from precision shooting and hunting, and my full time job is shooting and hunting related.
All of my ARs are more tools than toys, but I do enjoy shooting them.
The OP stated he is starting out with a functional rifle from the get go so I would recommend the first “accessory” be enough ammo to shoot the gun to his heart’s content at every opportunity he can get to a place to shoot. If ammo is covered then my preference would be:
Sling
Optical sight
SSA trigger or other upgrade trigger
For me the Battle Comp would be a no go as I really don’t like any extra blast.
A light should also be on the list.
Since the gun came with iron sights I would be hard pressed to replace them unless money was not an issue.
Having enough ammo to really become adept is pretty expensive and is going to cost more than the list of accessories.
That being said the progress will be faster using an optical sight and good trigger.
I did a little research on the trigger issue because I really think a good trigger is pretty important for any type of shooting, close or far.
Found this article by Mike Pannone.
http://www.defensereview.com/the-case-for-match-triggers-in-combatduty-rifles-safety-speed-and-accuracy/
Failure2Stop
06-09-11, 20:44
For a shooter new to "combat shooting", $225 spent on ammo with a plan will do far more than $225 spent on a trigger with a specialized application, especially if the shooter doesn't know what that application is or how well he can meet that application with a stock trigger.
Leonidas24
06-09-11, 20:55
I think the capabilities of a good stock single stage trigger are underestimated. At LRM school in the Army we were reaching out to 600 meters with M4s. Some of us had ACOGs others had 68s. Granted those triggers were smooth as butter from five years of use but nonetheless it can be done. With proper trigger control and application of the fundamentals a single stage trigger is all you need.
John_Burns
06-09-11, 21:05
For a shooter new to "combat shooting", $225 spent on ammo with a plan will do far more than $225 spent on a trigger with a specialized application, especially if the shooter doesn't know what that application is or how well he can meet that application with a stock trigger.
Well sort of.
In my opinion the upgrade trigger will pay off at some point, but if the option is only 1 case of ammo or an upgrade trigger then go with the ammo.
I guess I would go with 3 cases of ammo and the upgrade trigger over 4 cases of ammo and a Milspec trigger.
I don’t agree that the trigger has only a specialized application. Good triggers will let any shooter go faster and hit better. Just the way it is.
The odds are damn good that UBL was sent to his virgins by less than 5lbs of pressure.
spamsammich
06-09-11, 21:35
Please enlighten us on how a 2 stage precision trigger will improve the OPs shooting at the distances he has cited and in CQB/HD shooting. edit: Bear in mind that OP has given every indication of being new to this platform and no special trigger is going to make him shoot like Mike Pannone. I doubt he has even shot the rifle yet. Hopefully he can get quality instruction where he is.
John_Burns
06-09-11, 21:57
Please enlighten us on how a 2 stage precision trigger will improve the OPs shooting at the distances he has cited and in CQB/HD shooting. edit: Bear in mind that OP has given every indication of being new to this platform and no special trigger is going to make him shoot like Mike Pannone. I doubt he has even shot the rifle yet. Hopefully he can get quality instruction where he is.
Darn near missed your edit.
It seems pretty simple that a 4.5 lb trigger will break before a 7lb trigger (faster first shot and better splits) and be easier to manipulate for any shooter.
I guess the fact that Geissele Automatics built their rep in producing triggers for tier one units just kinda slipped by you.
There was a time when the big boys would run 3 out of four guys with upgrade semi auto triggers just because all the auto milspec triggers were a real detriment to high speed precisions shooting.
How am I doin so far??
Mike Pannone:
"With a stiff stock trigger I will eventually not fire the rifle when I wanted to but my body is still in its proper cyclic timing. That adds up to a thrown shot. With a match trigger the rifle discharges right when I want it to and very effortlessly making any shooter faster and more accurate."
Larry Vickers:
"My classes always stress a high degree of accuracy. That is because in a gunfight accuracy will almost always suffer."
"I have found that under conditions of stress a shooter will only be able to shoot to within roughly 50 % of the accuracy potential of a given weapon. And that is only for the best shooters; the majority will not even be close to that. That means in order to achieve my standard of head shots (5 inch groups) at a given distance the weapon/ammo combination needs to be capable of at least 2.5 inch groups. I personally measure that accuracy standard with 10 shot groups. Many quality service pistols and carbines with good ammo will achieve this but there are many other factors involved such as sights and trigger pull characteristics. By these criteria it is not hard to see why a tuned 1911 pistol is so popular in selected spec ops units."
A good case for a quality trigger in any defensive weapon.
John_Burns
06-09-11, 23:24
All things being equal a guy who shoots a lot will be better, at any distance, with a milspec trigger, than a guy who never shoots with the latest super duper magic trigger. A super duper magic trigger will not buy you super duper magic ability.
Things are never equal.
A good upgrade trigger costs about the same or a little less than 1000rnds of ammo.
If you will never shoot more than 3000rnds then the upgrade trigger might be a total waste of money for you. Simply put you are not going to be able to use the advantage because you have not put in the time and effort to really learn how to shoot in the first place.
If you intend to shoot a lot then the investment in a better trigger will at some point pay dividends in quicker first shots and quicker splits and more precise hits at distance.
Win, Win and Win.:D
lifebreath
06-10-11, 00:16
I do not recommend them only because I have never attended one, but I am anxious to get to an Appleseed shoot as I think they may be a great way to accomplish some of this as well.
I just did an Appleseed with my two sons and, interestingly, the trigger was a huge factor for ME. I say that because the program's format really made me aware of my inconsistent follow-through and reset on the trigger - something I doubt I would have become aware of in a typical carbine course. My trigger control was great up to and through the the break, but my follow-through sucked. Once I started really concentrating on good follow-through and reset, my groups improved immediately. I was shooting my Knight's SR15 with KAC 2-stage and it made a big difference in being able to gain good trigger control.
Having said that, I don't think either of my boys would have gained anything from a trigger upgrade. They were too absorbed in getting a good position, natural point of aim, proper use of a sling, sight picture, etc., to notice their trigger work. So, no, a trigger upgrade would not be meaningful for many shooters. But, if your fundamentals are relatively good, the trigger starts becoming a factor.
I highly recommend the Appleseed event, and I think it would benefit almost any shooter. Because of it, I am now aware of my need to practice my trigger control, including good follow-through and reset, combined with shooting cadence. Perfect to incorporate into any cadence drills. If you do Appleseed with an AR, a free-float barrel is essential. The sling tension will effect accuracy if pulling directly on the barrel. I tried both a free-floated gun and a non-free-float and noticed a very meaningful difference. BTW ... I did get my Rifleman patch. Scored 225 of 250. :)
spamsammich
06-10-11, 01:59
...
If you will never shoot more than 3000rnds then the upgrade trigger might be a total waste of money for you. Simply put you are not going to be able to use the advantage because you have not put in the time and effort to really learn how to shoot in the first place...
This is the point I was trying to make. And I never disputed what Pannone had pointed out. I'm quite sure as long as you are able to maintain the accuracy standards they require, you're not going to get your pecker slapped by LAV or Pannone for not having a great trigger in their carbine classes.
This is about the OPs request for an upgrade path on a rifle that he hasn't even shot yet. He already complained about breaking the bank to own the rifle. I'm trying to save him a little money up front while trying to assure him that there is nothing really lost by not having the latest whiz bang gadgets hung on his rifle. I'd like to help a fella avoid what I have going on right now, a drawer full of high tech shit that I don't really need or use that I will have to sell at a big loss eventually.
Please note, I have a SSA trigger and my experience with it is that it slows me down up close. I already state it definitely has its place in my quiver and for me, it's not HD distance shooting. I agree with the rest of what you and OldState have to say about the benefits of a quality trigger. Let's just not make it seem like throwing a SSA on OPs rifle will really make him a better shot. Shooting and instruction will make him a better shot, great equipment makes better hits easier and faster.
Failure2Stop
06-10-11, 05:59
If you haven't shot more than 3000rnds then the upgrade trigger is a total waste of money for you. Simply put you are not going to be able to use the advantage because you have not put in the time and effort to really learn how to shoot in the first place.
My "tweak" to your statement, which is a substantial part of my outlook on the matter.
And there certainly are disadvantages to non-standard triggers. Slow/weak reset being a very noticable problem. If you can't shoot it faster than a stock trigger, it is not going to be an advanage at 100m and in, unless you are shooting at very small objects.
Now, don't get the wrong impression from my post, I have two guns with 2-stage triggers, but I used standard triggers (except for 1 issued rifle) for a long time, which allowed me to undersand where the 2-stage triggers excelled and where they faltered. FWIW- I have a very high opinion of the Geissele S3G, though I am still working with it to see if it will stay on my primary rifle, be moved to another rifle, or if I will outfit my backup rifle with one. In contrast, the LMT 2-stage has a slow reset, but still feels better than a stck trigger; therefore I wouldn't mind it on a semi-precision/longer range rifle, but I would not use it as a primary defensive rifle or on a work gun.
Now, if somewhere out there was selling quality ARs with the option to get a S3G at no extra charge I would be all over it and would recommend it to anyone with ears. The point is this: there are a lot of items that bring a hell of a lot more capability than a trigger will, unless you have a far more specialized requirement than any other HD application I have ever heard of.
FWIW- a little after the S3G came out I asked for information about the different triggers, which was an excellent resource.
I'll see if I can dig it up.
I am not at all implying that improved triggers are worthless, but rather that their value is relative to application and skill.
Last time I checked, Blue Force Gear was still running 50% off on OD Green colored Vickers slings.
Do you have a link for this?
I only replied to address the trigger "haters" that would tell the OP a Geissele trigger is "fluff" and silly at any time during his shooting maturation.
IMO stock triggers act somewhat like a governor on a engine inhibiting the full capability of the weapon. If you only need a HD weapon to shoot things 5-7 yards a way, why even a carbine...or an optic for it...or a trigger...(do you even need sights?:rolleyes:)
If the OP wants a plinker, accurate rifles are far more fun to plink with.
As to the speed of the S3G:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApSs3st0e-A
Here's my take on an AR and what I have found out.
First thing is I don't foresee myself ever using it in a HD or SD situation but one never knows with the way the world is. However my primary use for the AR is just to have and shoot with family and friends.
My rifle has a quad rail, iron sights(LaRue rear/standard fsp), Surefire 6P with Malkoff LED upgrade in a LaRue mount, Vortex flashider, and a BFG sling. I have shot it at night to become accustomed to that aspect of shooting. No big deal to shooting at night with a good flashlight, or so I thought.
Fast forward to a recent uprising at my house, I live in the country. Woke up to my dogs barking, the kind of bark that pretty much says hey get your gun and get your ass out here. Grab my gun with flashlight and another rechargeable spot light and head outside at about midnight. The smell of a skunk is in the air and I hear the dogs barking out in the far trees. Nothing to be found out there. Of course my rechargeable spot light is weak and dying fast and also found out that while my Surefire does work it is not as bright as I would hope for.
Head back toward the house and can smell the skunk again, and am searching with my Surefire (which is not really helping) and spot the skunk in the dog fence. I try to shoot the skunk but the combination of tall grass and weak light and iron sights just wasn't cutting it. Ran into the house and wife hands me another Surefire with fresh batteries and I proceed to go out and dispatch the skunk. Shooting was probably twenty feet, heart pumping and one of my dogs about a foot and half away on the other side of the fence really stresses a person. End result was a dead skunk!
The moral of my story is make sure flashlight has fresh batteries, a RDS would help I believe also and make sure to also grab a full magazine, since the one I grabbed only had about 8 rounds in it from the last time I shot. Sorry for the stupid story but hope it does help alittle!
lifebreath
06-10-11, 09:40
Here's my take on an AR and what I have found out.
First thing is I don't foresee myself ever using it in a HD or SD situation but one never knows with the way the world is. However my primary use for the AR is just to have and shoot with family and friends.
My rifle has a quad rail, iron sights(LaRue rear/standard fsp), Surefire 6P with Malkoff LED upgrade in a LaRue mount, Vortex flashider, and a BFG sling. I have shot it at night to become accustomed to that aspect of shooting. No big deal to shooting at night with a good flashlight, or so I thought.
Fast forward to a recent uprising at my house, I live in the country. Woke up to my dogs barking, the kind of bark that pretty much says hey get your gun and get your ass out here. Grab my gun with flashlight and another rechargeable spot light and head outside at about midnight. The smell of a skunk is in the air and I hear the dogs barking out in the far trees. Nothing to be found out there. Of course my rechargeable spot light is weak and dying fast and also found out that while my Surefire does work it is not as bright as I would hope for.
Head back toward the house and can smell the skunk again, and am searching with my Surefire (which is not really helping) and spot the skunk in the dog fence. I try to shoot the skunk but the combination of tall grass and weak light and iron sights just wasn't cutting it. Ran into the house and wife hands me another Surefire with fresh batteries and I proceed to go out and dispatch the skunk. Shooting was probably twenty feet, heart pumping and one of my dogs about a foot and half away on the other side of the fence really stresses a person. End result was a dead skunk!
The moral of my story is make sure flashlight has fresh batteries, a RDS would help I believe also and make sure to also grab a full magazine, since the one I grabbed only had about 8 rounds in it from the last time I shot. Sorry for the stupid story but hope it does help alittle!
You need a night vision upgrade. :jester:
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.