View Full Version : 1-4 power optic advice
I've had my mind made up on wanting the swfa ss 1-4 optic for awhile. I use the AR it will go on for target shooting at the farm and range as well as some light hunting (coyotes etc). I've also been wanting to get into 3 gun competitions and I'm trying to find clubs or shoots in my area.
In your opinion is it worth the price tag for someone who uses their rifle for mainly recreation, unlike a lot of you.
I've never owned anything more then a 200$ luepold so I don't know what I'm missing from good glass. Another option I had tossed around was the Burris tac30.
I will use a larue qd mount with whatever I choose because I enjoy shooting irons a lot.
Appreciate any feedback you guys can give me. Rifle in question is a 16' midlength bcm.
Thanks!
I've had my mind made up on wanting the swfa ss 1-4 optic for awhile. I use the AR it will go on for target shooting at the farm and range as well as some light hunting (coyotes etc). I've also been wanting to get into 3 gun competitions and I'm trying to find clubs or shoots in my area.
In your opinion is it worth the price tag for someone who uses their rifle for mainly recreation, unlike a lot of you.
I've never owned anything more then a 200$ luepold so I don't know what I'm missing from good glass. Another option I had tossed around was the Burris tac30.
I will use a larue qd mount with whatever I choose because I enjoy shooting irons a lot.
Appreciate any feedback you guys can give me. Rifle in question is a 16' midlength bcm.
Thanks!
I'm not sure I understand the question.
lethal dose
06-09-11, 13:36
If you want my opinion, the trijicon tr24 is the absolute best value in variable power 1-4x optics.
Sorry, I don't mean to be abrupt. I have been using low powered variables in 3 gun for several years. I have a Trijicon tr-24g 1-4, a Burris xtr 1-4, and a Leupold mk4 cqt 1-3.
The reason for using a magnified optic is simply to see the target better. If you buy crappy glass, are you helping youself see the target, or are you just helping yourself empty your wallet?
You can spend much more than I have on optics, but I believe that at this level of glass there is a pretty good bang for the buck. ymmv
Best bang for the buck I've come across is the TR24 series. I had a TR24G, and if I were to do it over again, I would get a TR24R. You really get a lot for the money. It sucks that they went up in price though.
I guess I could have been more clear with the questions. My apologies.
Basically I'm just wondering if someone like myself who has used lower end scopes since I got my first rifle at 13 will actually see a difference in the good glass.
Say the difference between a 300$ optic and something more like the swfa or tr24.
I realize it's probably purely objective but figured I'd ask anyway. This site has been a great help to me in the past with helpful knowledge. Started out wanting a dpms and ended up with a nice bcm and other various parts.
I would guess that you would be the first one to admit the error of you ways after getting a nice quality scope.;)
Without a doubt you will know where the extra money went. The difference between a $300 scope and a TR24 is huge.
Like all things, it works on a sliding scale. At a point, the differences are smaller but cost much more.
If you want my opinion, the trijicon tr24 is the absolute best value in variable power 1-4x optics.
^This.
After 2 years with mine, I am still in love with my Trijicon TR24G.
Owning a "better" quality (or a truly high end) optic is not something you are likely to regret. 1-4, (or 1-6 for a lot more money), is a big advantage for 3 gun when target distances run from both CQB to way out there. Glass quality is not the only factor - repeatable turrets or a good BDC reticle are more important, IMO.
Last match our young Master set a 10" flasher at 418 Meters (458 yards). In the second stage I nailed it with the first shot by dialing in the distance - [but we won't discuss how I did in the first stage. :bad: ] This is on the extreme end for 3-Gun and I was using a bigger scope in this instance since there was nothing shorter than 150 Yds; but you get the picture.
Failure2Stop
06-09-11, 21:39
A good 1-4 will do a hell of a lot of work on an AR.
A few years ago, after spending time with a ShortDot and having already spend considerable time behind irons, Aimpoints, EoTechs, and ACOGs, I decided to do a "proof of concept" with a cheapo 1-4 (Millett) to figure out how I would employ a 1-4 optic, and if (for me) it would offer advantages over fixed 3-4x optics (ACOG line), 1x optics with 3x magnifiers (Aimpoints & EoTechs), ACOGs with piggybacked MRDs, and ACOGs with offset MRDs.
I found that while the optic was lacking, the concept provided me an advantage over all of them (except for higher magnification variables with offset MRDs, but the weight penalty was detrimental to my employment).
IMO, the best 1-4 is the ShortDot, and I was extremely close to purchasing one (I was also pondering the Swaro 1-6) as the 1-8s were revealed, which changed my priorities. The only other optic that I consider to be close to the SD is the Swarovski 1-6, but while the new BDC reticle is working well for other shooters (especially in 3-gun), I really prefer a mildot with hearty posts.
So, I slammed my $$$ down for a 1-8 (the wait for delivery continues), and also picked up one of the SWFA 1-4s with the "T" reticle. For 1k with a Bobro mount, the SWFA is imprssive. No, it isn't a S&B or Swarovski, but it is damn impressive. There are plenty of reviews of the thing on the net, so I am not going to get into detail, but I am pretty happy with the thing considering that I was expecting to be disappointed and stick it on a loaner/back-up gun.
I have not used the SWFA enough or over a long enough time to endorse it, but it has a lot going for it.
I definately prefer it over the Accupoint line, but mostly simply due to reticle options.
Alaskapopo
06-09-11, 22:34
If you want my opinion, the trijicon tr24 is the absolute best value in variable power 1-4x optics.
I like the TR24 and I own one. But the best value goes to the Burris TAC 30. It has a bullet drop reticle and its comes in at $300. The TR24 is a better scope but it comes in at double the price and it does not have a bullet drop reticle.
Pat
I think you may be waiting a long while on the S&B 1-8x. The exit pupil on the 1-8x's has me worried. But, I suspect it will change as they work the design.
The updated 1-4x24 Zenith Short Dot LE w/ the P3 reticle addresses everything I didn't like about the older Zenith SD LE.
Belmont31R
06-09-11, 22:57
I think you may be waiting a long while on the S&B 1-8x. The exit pupil on the 1-8x's has me worried. But, I suspect it will change as they work the design.
The updated 1-4x24 Zenith Short Dot LE w/ the P3 reticle addresses everything I didn't like about the older Zenith SD LE.
The exit pupil is calculated between the magnification and front lens.
So 20MM front lens with 5X will be a 4MM exit pupil. 40MM front lens with 10X will be 4MM.
Of course there are different factors like the percent of light that goes through each lens. A good scope will have 85-90% light transmission.
Appreciate allthe replies. I ran into a instructor last night who teaches a carbine course in the gun shop last night and I think I'm going to take the course first and see if I can't get some hands on with higher end stuff before I make my decision. I do like the German #4 reticule. Plus a good class can never hurt.
Crossin my fingers someone shows up with a tr24 :)
Rmm242 check your private messages.
also picked up one of the SWFA 1-4s with the "T" reticle. For 1k with a Bobro mount, the SWFA is imprssive. No, it isn't a S&B or Swarovski, but it is damn impressive.
SWFA currently has this scope on sale, including the scope, mount, cattail, and caps for $799.
Yup, excellent deal. I'm still about a month out from enough cash to grab one and I'm hoping they still have the deal then. I really wish we had a store that stocked some higher end stuff I could look at first hand.
SWFA currently has this scope on sale, including the scope, mount, cattail, and caps for $799.
I just looked that one up and couldn't find the sale. Where did you see that, if you don't mind?
I just looked that one up and couldn't find the sale. Where did you see that, if you don't mind?
Here is the link:
http://swfa.com/SWFA-SS-1-4x24-Tactical-Riflescope-KIT-P50222.aspx
The exit pupil is calculated between the magnification and front lens.
So 20MM front lens with 5X will be a 4MM exit pupil. 40MM front lens with 10X will be 4MM.
Of course there are different factors like the percent of light that goes through each lens. A good scope will have 85-90% light transmission.
Which tells me S&B specs, that you get from their website, reflect the actual measured output, not a calculated one.
By the math, a 24mm lens at 1.1-4x would be 21.8mm-6mm. But S&B lists it at something like 14mm-6mm.
SWFA lists the 1-8x S&B at the 22mm-3mm, which follows the math, but does not follow what S&B is listing.
A good 1-4 will do a hell of a lot of work on an AR.
A few years ago, after spending time with a ShortDot and having already spend considerable time behind irons, Aimpoints, EoTechs, and ACOGs, I decided to do a "proof of concept" with a cheapo 1-4 (Millett) to figure out how I would employ a 1-4 optic, and if (for me) it would offer advantages over fixed 3-4x optics (ACOG line), 1x optics with 3x magnifiers (Aimpoints & EoTechs), ACOGs with piggybacked MRDs, and ACOGs with offset MRDs.
I found that while the optic was lacking, the concept provided me an advantage over all of them (except for higher magnification variables with offset MRDs, but the weight penalty was detrimental to my employment).
IMO, the best 1-4 is the ShortDot, and I was extremely close to purchasing one (I was also pondering the Swaro 1-6) as the 1-8s were revealed, which changed my priorities. The only other optic that I consider to be close to the SD is the Swarovski 1-6, but while the new BDC reticle is working well for other shooters (especially in 3-gun), I really prefer a mildot with hearty posts.
So, I slammed my $$$ down for a 1-8 (the wait for delivery continues), and also picked up one of the SWFA 1-4s with the "T" reticle. For 1k with a Bobro mount, the SWFA is imprssive. No, it isn't a S&B or Swarovski, but it is damn impressive. There are plenty of reviews of the thing on the net, so I am not going to get into detail, but I am pretty happy with the thing considering that I was expecting to be disappointed and stick it on a loaner/back-up gun.
I have not used the SWFA enough or over a long enough time to endorse it, but it has a lot going for it.
I definately prefer it over the Accupoint line, but mostly simply due to reticle options.
Did you consider NF in your equation at a similar price point? I have had great success with them and would love to hear your thoughts. I find them to be an excellent value (especially lightly used) for a high quality, rugged optic that has been thoroughly tested.
Thoughts?
this is the one I'm looking forward to coming out later this summer.
it is a 1-4x24 with a MOA reticle in the SFP.
it is essentially the same as the PST but without the exposed turrets. it does have low turrets with 24 MOA of adjustment under the cap which makes sense to me for a rifle carried on a sling.
http://swfa.com/Vortex-1-4x24-Viper-HS-30mm-Rifle-Scope-P48290.aspx
this is the one I'm looking forward to coming out later this summer.
it is a 1-4x24 with a MOA reticle in the SFP.
it is essentially the same as the PST but without the exposed turrets. it does have low turrets with 24 MOA of adjustment under the cap which makes sense to me for a rifle carried on a sling.
I think you meant 24 MOA per full turn on the turret. 90 MOA is listed as the max adjustment.
http://www.vortexoptics.com/product/vortex-viper-hs-1-4x24-riflescope-with-illuminated-tmcq-moa-reticle
I use my 1-4 PST anytime 1x is likely to be the default setting and will shoot it in our CQB 3-Gun tomorrow. And it works for longer range use at 4x, of course. I'm still considering the HS (covered turret) version for a FAL.
Would love to see the SWFA 1-4 HD to compare, but none have shown up in my area so far. I'm happy to wait and see how they hold up under hard use for now.
Belmont31R
06-11-11, 18:31
Which tells me S&B specs, that you get from their website, reflect the actual measured output, not a calculated one.
By the math, a 24mm lens at 1.1-4x would be 21.8mm-6mm. But S&B lists it at something like 14mm-6mm.
SWFA lists the 1-8x S&B at the 22mm-3mm, which follows the math, but does not follow what S&B is listing.
No it doesn't matter what brand, and I didn't look up SB's specs. Actually Nikon has a nice write up with illustrations how to figure the exit pupil. It doesn't matter what brand the optic is the exit pupil is calculated the same way.
And there is a lot of rounding of numbers when it comes to optics. An optic might be listed as having a 40MM objective but it might really be 38.8 or some such.
If you go to the nikon website, and look at their explanation it will also tell you the maximum a human eye can expand is around 7MM so anything more than that is wasted light. The older you get the less your eye will open up. The issue with a 8X top end and ~24MM front lens is at 8X the exit pupil of the optic is less than what your eye can open up so in dark lighting the image you see through the scope will actually be darker than what you see with the naked eye. During the day its not so much an issue because your eye constricts, and only lets in around 3-4MM of light anyways.
Failure2Stop
06-11-11, 22:09
Did you consider NF in your equation at a similar price point? I have had great success with them and would love to hear your thoughts. I find them to be an excellent value (especially lightly used) for a high quality, rugged optic that has been thoroughly tested.
Thoughts?
I am not a fan of the 1-4 NF.
I do like their 2.5-10.
There are good comparisons in the "1-4 Optics Options" stickied at the top of the Optics Sub-forum.
I think you meant 24 MOA per full turn on the turret. 90 MOA is listed as the max adjustment.
http://www.vortexoptics.com/product/vortex-viper-hs-1-4x24-riflescope-with-illuminated-tmcq-moa-reticle
I use my 1-4 PST anytime 1x is likely to be the default setting and will shoot it in our CQB 3-Gun tomorrow. And it works for longer range use at 4x, of course. I'm still considering the HS (covered turret) version for a FAL.
Would love to see the SWFA 1-4 HD to compare, but none have shown up in my area so far. I'm happy to wait and see how they hold up under hard use for now.
you're right, I did mean 24MOA pre revolution, 90 MOA total. my bad...
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