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Dave L.
10-16-07, 12:38
Any suggestions, pro's-con's, and advice are appreciated:

I have 2 guns narrowed down(subject to change), both in .308, both bolt. I'm also a lefty so any "user friendly" info would help. Money is no huge issue. YES, I have plans for some of the McMillan courses.

1) McMillan Tac-308
http://www.mcmfamily.com/rifles.html

2) Accuracy International AWP

What do you guys think?
TIA,
Dave

Derek_Connor
10-16-07, 13:04
I do not believe any AWP's come in lefty configuration....if thats a deal breaker or not I am not sure....


Have you considered contacting one of the independent shops like GAP/Terry Cross/R&D Precision/KMW?

They could build you a HELL of a lefty rig relatively quickly, and for half the price of an AWP

Dave L.
10-16-07, 13:13
Honestly, I don't mind shooting right-handed bolt guns as a lefty. I can also shoot right handed, not as well, but I can still hold 2" groups at 100m.

I'm not familiar with the smaller custom shops out there at all. But would probably be interested. I'm really interested in the bolt guns with the folding stock- makes certain forms of transport much easier.

Derek_Connor
10-16-07, 13:29
Honestly, I don't mind shooting right-handed bolt guns as a lefty. I can also shoot right handed, not as well, but I can still hold 2" groups at 100m.

I'm not familiar with the smaller custom shops out there at all. But would probably be interested. I'm really interested in the bolt guns with the folding stock- makes certain forms of transport much easier.

got ya...

Folding stock, roger...

So with that information...AICS (similar chassis system to the AWP uses) allow the barreled actions to be dropped right in..

I believe one of the AICS 2.0 versions is a folding stock version....so that would allow you to get that portability you were looking for.

If money is no object, then get the AWP but be prepared to wait our to scour the boards for one, they only import so many each quarter...

Dave L.
10-16-07, 13:46
I believe McMillan has a new folding stock that looks very functional...Maybe I wouldn't have to wait as long??

Derek_Connor
10-16-07, 14:01
I believe McMillan has a new folding stock that looks very functional...Maybe I wouldn't have to wait as long??



Ohh I haven't heard/seen that...

Just looked it up, seems like a nice conversion...but it states "soon to be available" per their website....so Id check that detail with McMillan

It seems their stock rifle is just under $4000

do you already have optics to go on it?

Dave L.
10-16-07, 14:52
No optic yet, but I was thinking somewhere along the lines of a Leupold Mark 4, 4-12X. I don't know if an S&B is worth over double what a Leupold is(?)...
I'll probably go with Badger Rings- I think McMillan uses Badger Bases, but I could be wrong.
Like I said- I'm more so just trying to figure out what I want/need. I won't be state-side for a few months so ordering something isn't a big deal.

Derek_Connor
10-16-07, 15:00
No optic yet, but I was thinking somewhere along the lines of a Leupold Mark 4, 4-12X. I don't know if an S&B is worth over double what a Leupold is(?)...
I'll probably go with Badger Rings- I think McMillan uses Badger Bases, but I could be wrong.
Like I said- I'm more so just trying to figure out what I want/need. I won't be state-side for a few months so ordering something isn't a big deal.



If you have time and money, I say call TACPRO and get in line for an AI-AWP and order a USO/S&B and call it a day;)

Dave L.
10-16-07, 15:15
That was probably what was going to happen anyway...If you can't decide, buy the most expensive:D

Derek_Connor
10-16-07, 15:35
That was probably what was going to happen anyway...If you can't decide, buy the most expensive:D


they pop up once in awhile over on SnipersHide.Com so keep your eye open there...lots of good info too

Rana
10-16-07, 19:50
I would give Surgeon Rifles a look.

GunLovinTexan
10-16-07, 21:32
Im going to touch on this since noone else has, You stated you didnt mind shooting right handed but you dont do it as well, but can hold 2 inch groups at 100m......Why pay for a gun capable of 1/4 MOA if you can only shoot 2 MOA???

I would opt and go for a lefty to get the full potential of the gun.


Rob

Dave L.
10-17-07, 00:53
Im going to touch on this since noone else has, You stated you didnt mind shooting right handed but you dont do it as well, but can hold 2 inch groups at 100m......Why pay for a gun capable of 1/4 MOA if you can only shoot 2 MOA???

I would opt and go for a lefty to get the full potential of the gun.


Rob

I apologize for not making myself clear. I don't mind shooting any right-handed guns, I've had to do it my whole life. I practice shooting left, and right handed as many people do. I'm not saying I would only shoot a right-handed rifle right handed. I meant, I didn't mind shooting a right-handed bolt gun as a lefty. I probably can't shoot 1/4 MOA but I can shoot MOA or a little better left-handed. There is always room for improvement; if I buy a gun that I know can perform beyond my skills than I will never have to 2nd guess my skill...IMHO.

I'm always open to advice- thanks for all the input

Dave L.
10-17-07, 01:00
I would give Surgeon Rifles a look.

I will do that Sir- Is that the company that uses the Rem 700 action with the picatinny rail machined onto the top of the receiver?

Derek_Connor
10-17-07, 02:30
I will do that Sir- Is that the company that uses the Rem 700 action with the picatinny rail machined onto the top of the receiver?

i believe they machine the entire action inhouse with the built in 20moa rail...they do not use the rem 700 action

03humpalot
10-18-07, 12:41
I HIGHLY recommend getting in touch with George Gardner at www.gaprecision.net

I own both a "Rock" and AR10 built by his shop and have nothing but praise for both sticks and their work at his shop.

The Surgeon actions are quite impressive as well.

shark31
10-18-07, 13:18
I have 870 rounds through my Surgeon, and I can't think of a better gun for the money. Since you are a lefty, I would put it in a AICS to be able to work the bolt without moving your grip hand.

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/shark3-1/416sd021.jpg
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/shark3-1/SouthDakota031.jpg

For glass, look at the USO or S&B. The leupold has good glass, but the features aren't ideal (IMO).

Rock-N-Ruin
11-06-07, 20:06
Ya might also look at the Tac Ops rifles, All the GAP, Surgeon, and Tac-ops rifles all have .25 moa accuracy Guarantee's if I am not mistaking.. There's gonna be some wait time involved in any of those..


ETA: Ya might also check the classifides on snipershide.com, snipersparadise.com, snipercentral.com.. I see quite a few $4K precision rifles on those boards for sale frequently...J.

Victor
11-07-07, 10:41
Most folks know me as a NV dude and I never really speak about my past experiences with precision rifles. I am an ex LE guy/sniper type and in 1994 I purchased (my own funds) an AWC M92 .308 platform with a 22" Krieger and McMillian A2 stock). Lynn McWilliams still owns the AWC Systems Technology company out of Arizona. I have not purchased precision rifles from any where else over the years, due to their systems work, and work VERY well. This specific M92 in .308 I have now logged 12,260+ (ALL RECORDERD CLEANED EVERY 10 rounds) is FINALLY in need of a rebarrel with the Kreiger. My groups have finally opened up to 1"! :) Most folks do not know or talk much about AWC except for their fine supressors. Give them a shout and some consideration, they are serious about their rifle builds and IMHO the best kept sectret out there. Hope this helps.

Vic

SHIVAN
11-07-07, 11:51
GA Precision (http://www.gaprecision.net/) or KMV (kmw308@aol.com) can build you whatever you like....

I believe they can both get the AICS chassis or the McM folders.

DocMinster
11-19-07, 12:06
I cant comment on all of the aforementioned manufacturers as I have not owned or fired those rifles. BUT I have heard great things about them.

If you want to save some $$ in the past I have owned a Remington 700 in .308 with a Leupold Mark 4 ... very good rifle for the $$ and it allows you to spend a little more on the glass.

If you are looking for a custom rifle...

I have a HS Precision HTR 2000 in .308 Win. with a S&B PMII with Badger Ordnance 20MOA Base and Rings ... great rifle NO Problems. I shot it last week to record some cool weather dope.
Handloaded 168gr BTHP Sierra Match Kings @ 2700fps (Varget) @100,200,&300 yrds I had a 1MOA 5 shot group at 300yds.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/DocMinster/IMG_0003-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/DocMinster/IMG_0007.jpg


ALSO what calibre..... if I had to do it over again .308 or 300WM...Hmmmm still torn.


tuff choices ahead of you...

Good luck
Doc

Dave L.
11-19-07, 12:55
I'm still torn between a Surgeon or an AI. I have emailed both to find out what the wait looks like but haven't heard back yet. I want a .338LM but ammo seems really hard to get and I don't reload(yet). I may go with an AI in .300WM but that's just an idea I'm throwing around.

I'm planning on spending $5,000 (+/- $250) on the Rifle, $2,500 (+/- $200) on the optic. I'll spend what ever I have to on proper training/ammo/accessories.

Army Chief
11-19-07, 16:02
Having just gone through the very same process, with most of the very same stipulations (i.e. .308, bolt gun, left-handed, price a secondary concern), I discovered an unexpected solution that really surpassed expectations: the Sako TRG.

Like you, I initially felt that a custom Remington 700 was the most obvious solution; that said, when I considered wait times, pricing, and features, I came to realize that there are "production" rifles that deliver the same performance right from the factory: the Accuracy International Arctic Warfare model, and the Sako TRG-22.

Capability-wise, there is a razor's edge degree of difference between the two, but price-wise, there really is no contest. Now, I'm not here to say that the A.I. rifle isn't worth the money -- far from it -- but when you consider that quality glass is going to add at least $2,500 or more to the total outlay, it just isn't cost-effective for most of us to spend $5,000 on a base rifle. The Sako, properly-equipped, and appropriately topped-off with a Schmidt & Bender or U.S. Optics scope is going to come in at very close to that same amount.

I still think there will always be a place in my safe for a GAP 700 or another comparable custom, but when the time comes for me to consider a magnum, I've got to be honest: I really think I'm going to look back to Sako. The TRG is just that good.

Chief

USMC03
11-20-07, 18:06
Read Zak Smith's articles. They may help your decision making:



PRACTICAL LONG RANGE RIFLE SHOOTING Article Series:

PART I: THE RIFLE & GEAR - priorities, cost, calibers, rifles, ammunition, scopes, range-finders, ancillary gear, spotting, data:

http://demigodllc.com/articles/practical-long-range-rifle-shooting-equipment/


PART II: OPTICS - ballistics, elevation, wind, lead, data cards, dialing elevation, parallax, first focal plane vs. second focal plane, elevation adjustment & travel, clicks, zero-stop, single- vs. multi-turn knobs, bullet-drop compensators (BDC), tube diameter, reticle features, MIL vs. MOA, reticle illumination, brightness, magnification, objective size, specific recommendations


http://demigodllc.com/articles/practical-long-range-rifle-shooting-optics/



PART III: SHOOTING - zeroing, finding a range, targets and placement, packing up, arrival, target location, positioning, making scope adjustments, engagement, follow-up, shooter/spotter communication, efficiency



http://demigodllc.com/articles/practical-long-range-rifle-shooting-shooting/






I believe Zak also wrote an article on the Sako vs. the Accuracy International earlier this year in one of the gun magazines.





Semper Fi,
Jeff

f.2
11-20-07, 22:53
I found these articles interesting reads:

The Tango 51, Tack Driving Tactical Rifle from Tac Ops (http://www.tacticaloperations.com/swatapril2000/index.html) by Eugene Nielsen

BARREL LENGTH AND THE PRECISION RIFLE, Why shorter barrels may often be better (http://www.tacticaloperations.com/SWATbarrel/) by Eugene Nielsen

USMC03
11-20-07, 23:32
Dave,


Do it right the first time :D







Accuracy Internation Artic Warfare (.308) with Schmidt and Bender 4-16x50 with P4 Fine reticle:

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s206/molsen2295/USMC03/Accuracy%20International/DSC02148.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s206/molsen2295/USMC03/Accuracy%20International/DSC02149.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s206/molsen2295/USMC03/Accuracy%20International/DSC02150.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s206/molsen2295/USMC03/Accuracy%20International/DSC02151.jpg



Semper Fi,
Jeff

Army Chief
11-21-07, 01:43
That's definitely a bit more than I wanted to spend, Jeff, but no doubt about it, that's one gorgeous rifle with the best glass on the planet. There are definitely no excuses with a rig like that. LOL

Just wanted to reiterate that the Zak Smith articles mentioned above are really a gold standard introduction to the long range disciplines, and I can't even imagine a better no-nonsense primer on the subject. Zak really did a masterful job of making the these topics approachable, understandable and easy to apply in practice. It's essential reading in my view.

Chief

Army Chief
11-21-07, 01:49
I believe Zak also wrote an article on the Sako vs. the Accuracy International earlier this year in one of the gun magazines.


A-firm. While rather specifically focused on the .338 Lapua big boys, this review does provide a relevant Sako v. A.I. comparison applicable to other calibers, as well ...

http://demigodllc.com/articles/military-338-lapua-rifles-trg42-awsm/

Chief

Dave L.
11-21-07, 09:50
Dave,


Do it right the first time :D





That's the kinda guy I am.

AnchorStation
12-25-07, 13:20
The AI will work left or right as will the McM A-4 and A-5. Surgeon makes actions that you can have GA Precision or Terry cross build a rifle on (there are many others too) or you can buy a rifle built by Surgeon the "Scalpel" is their tactical rifle and they usally build one or two a month and usally have one ready in stock. You can get either an A-5 or the AICS stock on it. Thes rigs shoot no doubt. I had a 308 Scalpel and it was unbelivable...shot nice 5 round one hole groups all day.

Lots of good info on this site but for precision shooting the gold mine of info is on Snipers Hide...those guys wont steer you wrong and there are lots of group buys. I saved almost 2K total on all of my gear from various GB's and vendors off the hide.

As for glass it sucks but deal with the fact that you will have almost as much in the cost of the optic as you will the rifle. SB and USO are definatly top tier but there are other options as well such as IOR and Lupy...whatever glass you get be sure it has a first focal plane reticle. Lupy only has one version in FFP and honestly for 1200 bucks I would go with the FFP IOR as the glass is MUCH better. If variable isnt a huge factor the USO ST10 is a great value around 1300 with good features.

Dave L.
01-10-08, 11:28
Thanks for all the advice I got from everyone. I ordered a rifle.
I had a price range in mind for the rifle, glass, ammo, training, accessories. What I found out was Zak Smith was right on when he said about $10,000 to do it right.
TacPro had no AI's available until August...maybe, so that was a no-go.

I called GA Precision and They are going to build me a Great Rifle to start(and they could build it for me in less than 2 months- even with SHOT going on).

-Trued Rem 700 Action with extend bolt handle.
-18" Barrel, Threaded/with Thread Protector.
-AICS 2.0 Folding Stock in OD 3 five round mags 1 ten round mag.
-Badger 20MOA base/30mm Rings
-Leupold Mk4 3.5-10X Illum. TMR M1
-Flat Dark Earth CeraKote on Gun/Base/Rings
-Harris Bipod (USMC version)
-2.5-3lb. Trigger

Getting the all the above for around 5K,
Also enrolled in the GPS 2 week Warfighter Sniper Course in March for around 2K.
1st 1,000 rounds of Ammo- around 1K.

By the time I pay all travel costs to AZ I'll be right around 10K and I still need Rifle case, sling, drag bag, laser range finder....and the list goes on.:eek:

If anyone has any last minute suggestions feel free to throw them out.

Trim2L
01-10-08, 12:13
If anyone has any last minute suggestions feel free to throw them out.

- Don't count on that timeline. George is a great guy but he is super busy. I'd add two months to be safe.

- Get a scope with elevation and windage adjustments that match the reticle. I have a Leopold Mil reticle Mk4 and while it is a fine scope it is frustrating and counterintuitive doing the math between the knobs and the mil'ing reticle.

AnchorStation
01-10-08, 12:35
Congrats you done good!

You will be all sorts of happy with a gap rig. As for the rest...it will never stop:D

Transport protection should be first priority. 5K of hardware in a 30 dollar doskil case from Big 5 is not the answer. I use the Eagle HRSC which is a drag bag and shooting mat. It also has pockets for a cleanning rod log book as well as I keep my mags and kestral in there too. It has removable backpack straps too which I initially removed then decided to try and found I used it a lot. I also got a Hardigg storm case, you can save about 90 bucks if you get it without the foam. The gun (Surgeon Scalpel with USO SSDS) inside the HRSC will fin in the Hardig case with the foam removed. I feel the HRSC by itself due to the way it folds around the rifle provides sufficent protection. The hard shell case is just added protection and makes things a little easier to transport, stack, store and lock up.

GAP also stocks TIS cuff slings and TIS can provide the AI hooks for it. Mike Miller (TIS) is a good dude and will do you right.

Dont recall which model it is but lupy has a LRF that will calculate the come ups and cosine angles (you will figure that out soon). Pretty gadgetty all in all and reasonably priced but I have not actually done any hands on with it. The "Best" LRF is the Leica bar none but like all the other stuff its not cheap.

Sounds like you are jumping in with both feet like I did and you thought things out pretty well. My only comment would be that you should get a first focal plane scope. IMHO if you have a FFP and a mildot master then an LRF is just something else to break and change batteries in. If it were me I would skip the range finder, return the scope and get an FFP Luppy. http://www.swfa.com/pc-5487-297-leupold-35-10x40-mark-4-lrt-30mm-riflescope.aspx also a mildot master is the best 25 dollars you can spend and a sniper tools cosine indicator is also very usefull unless you are always shooting across the flat lands.

Remember the golden rule...POST PICS OF NEW TOYS:D

Dave L.
01-10-08, 13:42
I know the argument for getting the FFP scope but I want the Illum. Reticle. The course recommends it. I'll have a laser range finder too.
If it doesn't work out for me, I'll take that scope and build an SPR underneath it, and get an S&B (which is my "longer" term goal).

Thanks for the info on the Sling. I know I'll be getting a Storm Case for it. Probably a drag bag if Eagle has them in stock when I need it.

As for George being backed up- he is barreling the action for me this week. He knows I'm deployed right now, and I be deployed again 4 days after the course ends. I trust it will be done within my time constraints...and I'll be calling him every Friday:D

Dave L.
02-28-08, 17:59
**BUMP**

George at GAP had my Rifle done within 4 weeks of ordering- He did an awsome job and I'll be posting the picks very soon.