View Full Version : Blackhawk Serpa CQC holster
Folks, please stop buying this holster! I see this holster constantly in basic pistol classes and it is really a bad idea.
So what's the problem with them you ask? There are two main ones.
First, the retention system in this holster CAN create bad muscle memory in the shooter and get you shot! When you attempt to disengage the retention system, your trigger finger should be straight along the tab (that releases the gun). When the gun fails to come out of the holster, the shooter becomes more aggressive and uses the tip of the trigger finger and presses in on the release tab. The finger then stays in this position and ends up in the trigger guard as the gun comes out of the holster. This will eventually cause an ND.
Second, the retention system has large openings around it. This can be filled with debris (rocks, dirt, etc) and lock the gun into the holster. This is of course a bad thing when you are wanting/needing to shoot someone.
When owners of the Serpa CQC are confronted with the above two issues (especially number one), the common answer is; "My finger is always straight when I operate the tab." BULL CHIT. While it MAY be that way on the square range when the sun is shining and you are not under the slightest amount of stress it all changes when you are in a hurry and the gun is NOT coming out of the holster.
True story. An LE firearms instructor here in Ohio recently shot himself in the leg with a Serpa holster. This guy was very squared away and a good shooter. He was doing some speed drills and was attempting to draw quickly. When the gun failed to come out, he pushed down harder with his trigger finger. This same finger then ended up in the trigger guard and the gun went bang.
Just Say NO!
http://www.blackhawk.com//CatalogImages/18-1145-IMG9_L.jpeg
C4
lethal dose
06-10-11, 10:57
Don't use a serp unless you have the herp! There. Now nobody will use them, grant! :cool:
Don't use a serp unless you have the herp! There. Now nobody will use them, grant! :cool:
LOL, nice.
I understand why people buy these things (they are available and are cheap).
McDonalds is everywhere and cheap, that doesn't mean that it is a good place to eat. ;)
C4
This holster is made to be appealing to the same idiots who buy a Springfield XD for its "extra safety features". :suicide:
In all honesty, I stay away from everything BlackHawk! makes because it's shit gear mostly made in Viet-F$cking-Nam...
I, along with many others I worked with used SERPA holsters...nary a problem. Gave me 3 years service in Iraq with no NDs. Thinking operator error over design.
http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc313/Belt_Fed_Red/n747681689_2487614_5658.jpg
I, along with many others I worked with used SERPA holsters...nary a problem. Gave me 3 years service in Iraq with no NDs. Thinking operator error over design.
As a secondary weapon mounted on a plate carrier, I can actually understand using it (as there are not a lot of options).
The operator is at fault for releasing the tab with the tip of their finger and then riding it into the trigger guard. The design lends itself to this though and makes it MUCH easier for shooters to have an ND (as the example I showed did).
C4
I see dudes who are the "real deal" using them overseas all the time. 99% of the time it's because it was issued (via COTS purchase).
Shit, our box of "issue gear" is full of Uncle Mikes holsters and mag pouches mixed in with Blade Tech gear; some dudes don't know the difference.
There is always a supply guy somewhere reading a gun rag who gets the idea that this would be a great thing to buy a case of...
No matter who uses a SERPA... it's still a complete piece of shit, and there are dozens of better choices out there.
I believe most guys grind off the inside tab to prevent the almost certain ND.
I believe most guys grind off the inside tab to prevent the almost certain ND.
I have heard this.
C4
Gotta agree, POS.
My initial experience with this Serpa was shortly after its first release when I did a T&E on this holster for my employer quite a few years back. I noted potential issues that eventually showed up amongst general users. While I never had the locking device actually lock up on me during real use, I was able to easily create the issue with debris in the locking device causing the weapon not to come out of the holster. While I never experienced it under real training conditions I can easily see how it could happen. I was one of the early Serpa haters and boy did I take a lot of flak for that back in the day when they were the latest and greatest piece of sliced bread.
I re-visited this holster about 1 year ago and did another T&E on it and found myself doing a lot of pure speed drills, which I never really did during my first evaluation. During this second eval I noted that under induced stress of say a timer combined with speed in mind, I had far too many failures to release the weapon. This is the point in which I began to see the phenomenon of curling the trigger finger to do a positive or hard "press" of the serpa's release button. Invariably under high speeds this caused me to drag my finger a bit along the holster as the weapon was being drawn out. Now I never went as far as shooting myself in the leg, but I actually came to the realization that this is a serious potential for bad things, even in a very experienced shooter. Actually I saw this to be a potential with more experienced shooters as they really start pressing the pace. I will admit that most times I had no issues with the draw, but there were enough occasions where I noticed issues that it became a legit concern for me. Again, I noticed more issues with this problem, the more proficient I became with the holster and the more I pushed the pace. Perhaps something about a more gross movement with the straight index finger not allowing me a good release under speed.
I run this holster in a video or two of mine. Again for the majority of the time draws worked well, but if you notice in the below video of the 10-8 drill I actually have a couple issues on the draw, where I need to reposition my grip slightly or where I double clutch the weapon because I didn't hit the release well. This can be especially seen in the last stage of fire stage 12. Also half of the stages or so start out of the holster, so my failure rate is not acceptable. I also ran this holster enough where I became just as efficient as others I know that run it 100% of the time.
10-8 drill with the Serpa http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05P9ARD4cj4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05P9ARD4cj4)
Again IMO, the holster is not acceptable.
Saw one get jammed up here locally while doing some drills that required lying on the ground. A few small pebbles get into the retention area and locked it up to where the guy couldn't draw the gun.
Sad really, but people buy the becasue they are cheap and easy to find. Thing is a basic Safariland ALS paddle or belt holster can be had for the same price.
Another problem that I have personally seen cause issues on multiple SERPA holsters being carried by cops is the flimsy mounting system. I have seen SERPAs ripped directly off of the belts of guys carrying them during training. The way the belt slide attachment is affixed to the holster is super weak. I have also seen another well respected instructor who experienced the same failure during class. In his instance, the pistol became locked in the holster due to debris locking up the retention button. When the shooter and others trying to assist the shooter began to pull on the grip of the pistol, the holster ripped right off of the belt slide attachment.
The BIGGEST problem I see with SERPA holsters is that they are cheap....and so are most cops. Therefore, they have ended up being one of, if not the most prevalent holster design you see cops carry on a daily basis.
The Serpa for the X26 Taser is also crap. You can grab the side of the holster and twist the X26 from the holster without ever pushing the release button. My agency issued me one. Once I saw this flaw, I popped for a more secure Safariland ALS version.
My agency also issues the Serpa duty holster...crap. They had to send out a safety recall notice, because the gun could be ripped out by an attacker.
My two cents...you cant beat Safariland for on duty carry.
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Edited content
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Holsters require maintenance. I blast the SLS and ALS mechanisms of my Safariland Holsters with B/C Gun Scrubber/compressed air and then an aerosol can dry lube to clean out and lube the mechanism every so often. I work in the brush and have seen the mechanisms become sluggish/almost frozen without maintenance.
I HAD to buy one of these shitty things when I first got my M&P 45 because there were no other quick options available at the time. I knew is was junk, but had to have something to be able to move around on the range with a hot weapon.
I eventually got my phantom, and tossed that thing aside.
Same gun, same reason: at the time, a holster for a Glock 21 would fit, was all that was immediately available, and I wan't leaving the store without a holster.
....and my skin was crawling every time I wore the thing, until my Safariland and my Minotaur came in.
If one likes to say that the SERPA is a great holster, it's because they've never had the pleasure of having a piece of gravel, mud, snow or the like ( in my case, it was a sliver of gravel) get stuck behind the release lever, keeping it from being depressed at a time one desperately needs to draw the weapon. Knowing that you HAVE a pistol on your hip, pulling on it with enough strength to uproot small trees, and having it be as accessible to you as *insert name of one's most-desired actress/porn star/female athlete here*'s panty drawer -- meaning NOT AT ALL -- is a distinctly BAD feeling.
If I hadn't had a fire-team of other Marines with me at that moment in 2006, I'd be dead...because of a damned holster.
It's not even the frequency of the SERPA failures across the market; I get how some unicorn-vagina and chocolate-rainbow visionary type can ignore how often folks report glitches. The world is full of either Pollyannas or people that blithely manage to walk between raindrops, and I can handle that. What I don't get is how folks can ignore the implications of the TYPE of malfunctions these things are no-shit KNOWN (note that I didn't say believed; belief is NOT a metric...) to exhibit, and continue to use them.
Saying some analogue of how SERPA "hasn't failed yet, in X years of use...." is a completely factual statement that I have no doubts over, but the center of gravity of the statement is the word "yet." How many lives may hang on the balance of little words like "yet" or "if?"
How many top-rate instructors/schools patently state that they will not allow SERPA holsters on their ranges? This isn't a game of Smear the Queer, those thing just suck donkey dong, period. The folks that own them are at least not doing any of the sucking, but are definitely cupping the balls while the holster does the sucking for them, which is still nasty.
Get a different holster, and leave that poor donkey the hell alone.
Moose-Knuckle
06-10-11, 16:14
I have never given anything from Blackhawk a serious look. IMHO they are on par with the airsoft grade shit. After are they are made in the same country, imagine that.
Saw one get jammed up here locally while doing some drills that required lying on the ground. A few small pebbles get into the retention area and locked it up to where the guy couldn't draw the gun.
Sad really, but people buy the becasue they are cheap and easy to find. Thing is a basic Safariland ALS paddle or belt holster can be had for the same price.
This is the only holster with active retention that I have. The rest are RCS, etc.
I used one during the beggining of my "serious" shooting , when I first started to get into training, competeing, and finding out what I didnt know.
I wrote this once I had a clue, it was mostly aimed at another forum I frequent where Open Carry is a big deal and the Serpa is like the ****in OC uniform for douche bags who thinks it will retain there gun and they there fore "dont need no stinking training"
some background first.
I have used a SERPA holster for both CC and OC for the past year 2 years. I have used it to carry a XD-9 earliest on, and various 1911 models in the last year and a half that I have been carrying a 1911.
I have taken several training courses using it from Various trainers.
I have used it to do more than one retention and disarms session, and with informal FOF.
My honest assesment of the system is that while it provides a small amount of retention the downsides outweigh its benefits.
Let me quantify "small amount of retention".
There are two types of dangers to being disarmed. The first is a "gun grab". A gun grab can best be explained as a rough attempt to take your gun by someone with neither knowledge or skill, or who is perhaps too inebriated to be either.
The second type is a real disarm. This would be attempt to remove your gun by someone who knows what they are doing (at least to some degree) and is able to physically employ a method to do so.
I have seen SERPA holster bodys ripped right off the frame, (using belt loop attachment) the screws that hold it in place pop through the plastic using medium strength in class. Against a gun grab, the holster body is not strong enough to withstand a good pull and rip from a normal sized man. When using the paddle the holster will move around the belt, bunch up clothes and make contolling its position difficult.
I have also seen training guns (same dimensions as the real thing but solid hard plastic) pulled right up out of the holster. With a good pull from a normal sized man the tab that holds the gun in on the trigger guard will bend and give way. In one class I had the gun ripped right from me (while I was resisting) and the role play BG commented "wait, isnt that a Serpa holster????" with confusion.
Against a real disarm the button is easy to identify and push. The draw on the SERPA is easy, this is the downside to that.
I have yet to see someone have the fabled ND by having the button pushing finger enter the trigger guard. My fingers are long enough that even if I try my finger hits the front of the guard, I would need to bend it to get it in there. Nonetheless one trainer told me he saw it happen once. I have only heard of it happen with GLOCK or other guns without a manual safety.
As I said I have used this holster in numerous classes, and done countless presentations from it. All without fail. I trained well to use it. During one class the instructor commented that by the end of class I would toss it out, he had seen it complicate a draw so often he was certain.
This class involved drawing after being pushed to the ground, while wrestling, and from other disadvantageous positions. I had no issues, although another classmate popped the button off his half way through as he kept fouling the draw, and I would disarm him every chance I got.
Recently I have experianced a few times where my cover garment wrapped around the holster and it caused me to have to double tug on the pistol, as it complicated my draw. This may not be a concern for anyone who OC's only (ever wear a jacket or coat when its chilly????) but I have seen draws need more than one tug from experianced shooters if they get flustered or put into FOF.
My real concern and reason for this write up is the number of people I see open carry with this style of holster thinking they have "retention", and taking a false sense of security from that. At most, without the holster physically failing, it will give you a precoius half second to imploy some sort of defense.
If you are not trained, and have not practiced, what to do.... well then, you wont do anything.
Ive scince been in more classes, and follow up Retention and Disarm classes with students having these...... and its only reinforced my opinion that this is bad kit for all but a limited application (not mine).
I must have been living with my head in the sand for the past year or so, because I never realized that these holsters had these types of issues. I'd always heard the tales and horror stories of people getting debris in the locking mechanism, but I always brushed it off as a few random cases that the internet blew out of proportion.
And I guess I just assumed that my agency wouldn't allow it to be a standard issued holster if it had these issues...I never did any research on the matter myself.
I switched to SERPA Level 3 about a year ago and haven't had any problems with it. My draw speed increased and I felt more comfortable with its retention-Ha! The Safariland holster's bail would seem to find its way open (especially if I was reaching over into the passenger seat to grab something while I was wearing my vest).
But, I've never had anyone try to rip the SERPA off. Seems like thats the exact wrong time I'd want my holster to fail me. So, I just dug my Safariland out of a box in my closet. It's going back on the duty belt tonight and I'll be hitting the range with it tomorrow morning to practice my draw with it again.
Thanks for the heads up.
edit: as far as the AD/ND thing...thats 100% user error imo. If you are drawing it correctly, then you should never have an ND.
Dachs,
Im not a big fan of the 6280 series holsters with only the rotating hood. They do always find their way open, and when the hood is rotated down it is basically a gun bucket with zero retention. Get into a struggle on the street and bad things can happen.
I have since switched to the 6300 series ALS holsters which offers an active retention device that is very intuitive to release with your shooting thumb. They also offer it with the rotating hood as an option as well, but I prefer the open top 6325 without the hood.
I highly recommend that you take a look at the 6300 series ALS holsters from Safariland.
I used one during the beggining of my "serious" shooting , when I first started to get into training, competeing, and finding out what I didnt know.
I wrote this once I had a clue, it was mostly aimed at another forum I frequent where Open Carry is a big deal and the Serpa is like the ****in OC uniform for douche bags who thinks it will retain there gun and they there fore "dont need no stinking training"
Ive scince been in more classes, and follow up Retention and Disarm classes with students having these...... and its only reinforced my opinion that this is bad kit for all but a limited application (not mine).
LOL, this wouldn't be a certain PA forum would it. :D
It is amazing how training classes will quickly open ones eyes to mistakes made in gear and guns. If I was king for a day, I would require that everyone show up with some quality made Kydex holster and mag pouch (all mounted to an instructors style belt) and that is it! Then, after several training classes and lots of practice time, the shooter could buy other "kit" if they so chose.
C4
I must have been living with my head in the sand for the past year or so, because I never realized that these holsters had these types of issues. I'd always heard the tales and horror stories of people getting debris in the locking mechanism, but I always brushed it off as a few random cases that the internet blew out of proportion.
And I guess I just assumed that my agency wouldn't allow it to be a standard issued holster if it had these issues...I never did any research on the matter myself.
I switched to SERPA Level 3 about a year ago and haven't had any problems with it. My draw speed increased and I felt more comfortable with its retention-Ha! The Safariland holster's bail would seem to find its way open (especially if I was reaching over into the passenger seat to grab something while I was wearing my vest).
But, I've never had anyone try to rip the SERPA off. Seems like thats the exact wrong time I'd want my holster to fail me. So, I just dug my Safariland out of a box in my closet. It's going back on the duty belt tonight and I'll be hitting the range with it tomorrow morning to practice my draw with it again.
Thanks for the heads up.
edit: as far as the AD/ND thing...thats 100% user error imo. If you are drawing it correctly, then you should never have an ND.
Smart man!
I personally do not believe that one can draw from the SERPA correctly all the time (because of its poor design). So ND's are bound to happen eventually.
C4
McDonalds is everywhere and cheap, that doesn't mean that it is a good place to eat. ;)
C4
ohhhhh, now you've done it! :mad:
:D
And I guess I just assumed that my agency wouldn't allow it to be a standard issued holster if it had these issues...I never did any research on the matter myself. .
Most agencies base their purchasing decisions on combinations of
price
marketing
how many samples they are given prior to a purchase
what their "gun guy" recommends, regardless of his credibility
what a neighbor/partner agency is using, regardless of the basis of their decision
what can be invoiced/shipped within a specified time
Don't believe otherwise. There are exceptions, but the above in various combinations is the norm. It is not always the fault of the agency, as realities of budget, time, and civilian oversight are significant. Many will often find themselves in a position of "mediocre, or nothing".
This is why consumers should not read too much into a certain piece of gear being used by LE or the military. Both buy crap by the pallet load.
LOL, this wouldn't be a certain PA forum would it. :D
It is amazing how training classes will quickly open ones eyes to mistakes made in gear and guns. If I was king for a day, I would require that everyone show up with some quality made Kydex holster and mag pouch (all mounted to an instructors style belt) and that is it! Then, after several training classes and lots of practice time, the shooter could buy other "kit" if they so chose.
C4
How did you guess :jester: ?
Funny (or tragic) was one of the folks who took issue with that post, and the follow up responses, was a guy who just said flat out that I didnt know what I was talking about because......... wait for it........ its a good one...... really showed me........... Because hes a fat guy, and when he fell out of his car this one time and caught the serpa on the seat belt it didnt break ! :eek:
I think I should hang around this forum more often...two great threads that have taught me a lot today.
The search for a new holster for my Glock 19 begins now.....
Thank you Grant!
ChristisKing
06-11-11, 20:43
I, along with many others I worked with used SERPA holsters...nary a problem. Gave me 3 years service in Iraq with no NDs. Thinking operator error over design.
http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc313/Belt_Fed_Red/n747681689_2487614_5658.jpg
Not over seas like this guy but I've been running them at competitions since they first came out. Maybe stupid people shouldn't use them but I love mine.
Dachs,
Im not a big fan of the 6280 series holsters with only the rotating hood. They do always find their way open, and when the hood is rotated down it is basically a gun bucket with zero retention. Get into a struggle on the street and bad things can happen.
I have since switched to the 6300 series ALS holsters which offers an active retention device that is very intuitive to release with your shooting thumb. They also offer it with the rotating hood as an option as well, but I prefer the open top 6325 without the hood.
I highly recommend that you take a look at the 6300 series ALS holsters from Safariland.
There is a lot to be said for properly setting the retention screw on the holster. The SLS should not be solely relied on to keep the weapon in the holster. Some yay-hoo firearms instructors at my agencies academy were sending trainees to the field having removed the retention screw on their holsters which were SLS only (no ALS.)
Because hes a fat guy, and when he fell out of his car this one time and caught the serpa on the seat belt it didnt break ! :eek:
That's quality there.
C4
I think I should hang around this forum more often...two great threads that have taught me a lot today.
The search for a new holster for my Glock 19 begins now.....
Thank you Grant!
Cool. Someone that gets it!
C4
Not over seas like this guy but I've been running them at competitions since they first came out. Maybe stupid people shouldn't use them but I love mine.
The people I know that have either had the gun locked into the holster or shot themselves (or nearly shot themselves) weren't stupid.
There are about 10,000 better choices than this holster. Life is short. Choose wisely.
C4
titsonritz
06-12-11, 05:40
"No thank you" were my words when offered this holster free not once but twice.
A design that requires you press your trigger finger in the direction of the trigger while you draw is just retarded.
The popularity of this POS blows me away. I'll stick with an ALS or SLS.
I've seen the ND problem happen about three years ago with an M&P and a Serpa with a guy working a detail with me. It's amazing that him, myself or one of the other two guys standing around wasn't injured. The round went down his pant leg, came out through the ankle, ricocheted off the tarmac, then pinged off a wheel of a jeep that that someone was standing right next too. I have no idea where the round went after that. The holster was shit canned immediately afterwards.
http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x51/coltm733/Texas/armortexas009.jpg
It taught me A) Serpas are gay, B) rounds can do some really funky stuff when they hit hard surfaces and C) always, always, always have an aid kit when there are guns around regardless of the setting.
However, I have a Serpa in my box at home for my 1911 with the release tab that engages the trigger guard ripped off and the retention screw tightened all the way down.
I have three serpa's and various platforms and quick release platforms. The M9 in a serpa was the first pistol/holster I ever used (mil), and one thing that I really do like about the serpa are the QD setups. I obviously use an M9 for work/work training, but my personal handgun is an G21. They also make serpas for every other gun I may purchase in the future for myself or my woman. I can bring my work rig home, swap out QD holsters, and wear it when I go shooting. I'm very big into the train how you fight mentality and having that ability is appealing to me. I also have pretty big hands so I have never come remotely close to getting my finger inside the trigger guard, and drawing is very fast.
I did have one of my M9 holsters get "crushed" on one of the flights overseas and had to replace it because it was too tight and took some serious force to get weapon out. It's definitely not a quality holster, I'm not saying it is.
I want sexy kydex holsters and all of that, but the problem for me is that the range is the only time I would ever use them and the training would not transfer over to work, and thats a no go.
Serpa holsters of some model/generation or another are also one of the standard issue holsters for the agency I work for as well.
I used to take it upon myself to briefly mention the possible problems that can occur while using this holster to other agents but I stopped doing that a long time ago. My suggestions held no weight compared to gun magazine promotions and internet photos of them in use.
Agents always cite their improved draw speed while using the Serpas though. That's fine and good, but the thing that turned me away from using one was seeing documented cases of them failing should some kind of debris lodge itself into the release mechanism. We work in the desert where a myriad of natural debris can find itself in that holster and F it up. I was not worried about the potential ND because I believe and always will that that is more of a training issue.
Our other approved holster choice is a Safariland 6280 and it seems that more and more, there is much hate for this simple yet effective holster. I would say three out of five agents have switched from the Safariland to some kind of Serpa. Agents always cite that while on walks, the hood comes open and their pistols have fallen out with the Safariland. I am not sure, but I believe this is more common among our more "robust" agents.
The one area where the Serpa is in fact better than the Safariland that only concerns uniformed LEO/LEA is that the Serpa appears to be more difficult for successful gun grabs.
I gave my issued Serpas away to some Barney Fife at work. I'm doing a detail right now where I am not even in the field and I still will not use a Serpa.
hey just a quick question, has anyone ever done any torture test on different holsters to see what it will take to make them fail? alot of people assume things will fail by the looks of them, and not by actual expierence(not sayin any of the points in this discussion arent true, but im sure many of you know what i am talking about) we see plenty of torture tests on the rifles and sidearms we carry but rarely on the gear we carry them with. id like to see various holsters thrown in sand, mud, water, gravel, mabey left outside for a few weeks with a rubber training gun in them and then see the results. if i wasnt working 60+ hours a week id do it myself, but things are a little busy down here in south texas :D
"You know how they say God left Africa in the 1990s? well if he went to Mexico, he sure as hell didnt stay very long"
I have personally heard/seen Kyle DeFoor give a lecture and illustration of why a Serpa is not a good idea. This was echoed by several former Tier 1 guys. More than a few guys in the class were not pleased to learn part of their kit was shit.
Our other approved holster choice is a Safariland 6280 and it seems that more and more, there is much hate for this simple yet effective holster. I would say three out of five agents have switched from the Safariland to some kind of Serpa. Agents always cite that while on walks, the hood comes open and their pistols have fallen out with the Safariland. I am not sure, but I believe this is more common among our more "robust" agents.
The one area where the Serpa is in fact better than the Safariland that only concerns uniformed LEO/LEA is that the Serpa appears to be more difficult for successful gun grabs.
I feel the standard Safariland 6280 holster design is also lacking in a couple of ways. The hood does indeed easily find its way open while seated inside of a patrol vehicle. Once it is open, it is basically a "gun bucket". Should the Officer approach a traffic stop or subject on the street with the hood down and suddenly find him/her-self in a ground fight, their pistol will inevitably fall out of the 6280. The police academy that the majority of our recruits are sent to has decided to advise the recruits that in-order to gain a "speed advantage" when approaching "high risk" stops, it is acceptable to rotate the hood down on their 6280 holsters. In my personal opinion, this is beyond stupid. I have never found that defeating one of, or any of a holsters retention devices in anticipation of having to draw your pistol from the holster actually equates an increase in speed with the draw. I have found just the opposite to be true. Whenever I have seen officers try to gain an advantage in their draw by rotating the hood down on their 6280 holsters during training or re-qualifications it always causes a hitch in their draw. Basically under stress, they still look to rotate the hood down with their thumb when they do actually draw the pistol.
I greatly prefer the 6300 series ALS holsters from Safariland. Should the hood find its self open, the pistol is still positively retained by the ALS feature in a gun-grab or ground fight situation.
Seeing a youtube video of a pistol jammed in good when I was researching buying one of these was enough to put me off.
HIJACK
Does Safariland make a line of holsters for multiple platforms that are recommended replacements for the Serpa? Or does any other company? Preferably with a QD setup so that multiple weapons could mount on the same rig?
Are there any kydex holsters with at least some kind of active retention?
HIJACK
HIJACK
Does Safariland make a line of holsters for multiple platforms that are recommended replacements for the Serpa? Or does any other company? Preferably with a QD setup so that multiple weapons could mount on the same rig?
Are there any kydex holsters with at least some kind of active retention?
HIJACK
Yep. They offer the QLS (Quick Locking System): http://www.safariland.com/Dutygear/duty/qls.aspx that can be configured to mount on various different platforms. I would suggest any one of their 6300 series "ALS" holsters as a far superior replacement for the SERPA. I run the open top 6325: http://www.safariland.com/DutyGear/product.aspx?pid=6325
scouts out
06-13-11, 03:18
I honestly appreciate everyone's knowledge, experience, and research on this subject. I work for an organization that guards bad people and I and all the other guards are armed. That being said 99% of us are using the SERPA as our duty holster. I have read this thread hoping that during so, information of what is a good retention holster would be shared. I have read all the info and negative statements and will take all/most of it to heart, but it would be very helpful that along with the negative there may be some recommendations as well.
Thank you
Grant,
Could you recommend a good retention holster that is molle compatible? I too wear mine up on my kit and have seen the SERPA as the only option. As for its use, I'm a PL in a light infantry company and it will serve to retain my secondary in Afghanistan. Earlier in a post you said you understood them on plate carriers but I still feel like I'm tempting fate and felt dirty when I bought it to begin with do to the chance the locking tab can get jammed. If I am firing my M4 then its a bad day, and if I need to go to the M9 its a REALLY bad day and is no time to find out just how much the SERPA really sucks donkey balls.
I honestly appreciate everyone's knowledge, experience, and research on this subject. I work for an organization that guards bad people and I and all the other guards are armed. That being said 99% of us are using the SERPA as our duty holster. I have read this thread hoping that during so, information of what is a good retention holster would be shared. I have read all the info and negative statements and will take all/most of it to heart, but it would be very helpful that along with the negative there may be some recommendations as well.
Thank you
my$.02
-Safariland
-Viking Tactics uses/sells the 5.11 thumb drive holster.
I am sure there are others...
Not to hijack this thread some more but the Safariland ALS works great. I used to run a 5187 for USPSA Production class for my XD and found it to be a great holster. When I got my M&P (after getting rid of the XD) I couldn't get a 5187 so I purchased a 6377 knowing about the retention. I had no problems adjusting to it and it didn't slow down my draw. I've used it in a pistol class and numerous matches over the last year and have since purchased another my G17 I liked it so much. Hijack over...
HIJACK
Does Safariland make a line of holsters for multiple platforms that are recommended replacements for the Serpa? Or does any other company? Preferably with a QD setup so that multiple weapons could mount on the same rig?
Are there any kydex holsters with at least some kind of active retention?
HIJACK
This may be what you are looking for. I dumped my drop leg serpa for this drop leg, with the option to go regular belt or molle. http://www.tacticalholsters.com/product/XST-RTI/XST-RTI.html
I am looking for a safariland, and I am glad they make accesories for carrying it on my belt, a duty belt, or molle. My problem is that I am ditching my glock 19 and I will be carrying a cz75 If I can get a retention holster for it. Safariland makes these for cz75s, but they are hard to find.
CenterTree
06-13-11, 20:42
I have personally heard/seen Kyle DeFoor give a lecture and illustration of why a Serpa is not a good idea. This was echoed by several former Tier 1 guys. More than a few guys in the class were not pleased to learn part of their kit was shit.
LOL, I was in Stony Smith's (Paragon 6) pistol class this past Sunday. And as he was covering gear he asked "Who here is using a Serpa"?
3 people raised their hands and he proceeded to, *eh-hum*, "politely" inform them that the Serpas were POS.
I have heard that before (in forums) but to actually hear a quality instructor say it was priceless.
titsonritz
06-13-11, 23:48
HIJACK
Does Safariland make a line of holsters for multiple platforms that are recommended replacements for the Serpa? Or does any other company? Preferably with a QD setup so that multiple weapons could mount on the same rig?
Are there any kydex holsters with at least some kind of active retention?
HIJACK
Check out G-Code adapters.
Failure2Stop
06-14-11, 08:33
If you want a bail on the holster, go with a Safariland 6004. I have used the spring-driven thumb release holsters and they have many more issues than the simple, effective 6004.
If you want a blazing fast draw, with active retention, go with an ALS from Safariland.
If you don't need retention, there are a ton of decent holster makers out there.
Grant,
Could you recommend a good retention holster that is molle compatible? I too wear mine up on my kit and have seen the SERPA as the only option. As for its use, I'm a PL in a light infantry company and it will serve to retain my secondary in Afghanistan. Earlier in a post you said you understood them on plate carriers but I still feel like I'm tempting fate and felt dirty when I bought it to begin with do to the chance the locking tab can get jammed. If I am firing my M4 then its a bad day, and if I need to go to the M9 its a REALLY bad day and is no time to find out just how much the SERPA really sucks donkey balls.
I don't deal much with this sort of thing, so hit up F2S and ask him for some wisdom.
C4
Safariland ALS holster mounted on their MLS (Molle Locking System): http://www.safariland.com/dutygear/duty/mls.aspx
If you want a bail on the holster, go with a Safariland 6004. I have used the spring-driven thumb release holsters and they have many more issues than the simple, effective 6004. If you want a blazing fast draw, with active retention, go with an ALS from Safariland.
If you don't need retention, there are a ton of decent holster makers out there.
Can you elaborate on this? If not in public, a PM would be great.
I just got one to T&E and I'm curious what I should keep an eye out for.
FYI, already familiar with the ALS (have one myself), just curious what the shortcoming were on the blade-tech/5.11 thumb-drive.
Thanks
Failure2Stop
06-14-11, 16:17
Let me be very clear, G-Code puts out quality products.
Spring-opening bails have a failure point that is unavoidable: the spring and the faith requirment that the bail fully opened when the lever/pad was depressed.
Break a spring or has something wedged in the bail and you won't know the holster has failed you until you are trying to fight the pistol out of the holster.
I have had both happen to me.
The 6004 is not immune to having a stoppage, but you at least know it before trying to pull the gun, and there are less parts to break.
It is not a criticism of G-Code, but rather of the genre.
MOLLE mounting:
I prefer to wear my holsters on a belt, but in the occasion that I need to vest-mount the holster I have used an like the Safariland MOLLE lock, as well as simply zip-tying the holster into a cummerbund.
The SERPA is prohibited at my agency.
Before taking my first multi-day training class (EAG Pistol 2), I was told by many on this site that it was a piece of shit. I was a bit surprised by the tough love, but when people are trying to help you, you just shut up and listen, and I eventually did. I wasn't able to find an alternate at the time and took the class with the SERPA. I did get an offer of help from Rider79, who brought along extras, but I decided to try it anyways.
I didn't have problems with the gun getting locked in due to gravel because EAG's Pistol 2 didn't have us on the ground much.
However, I did experience what Surf has already mentioned much earlier, which is when aggressively trying to draw the pistol before disengaging the release, the trigger guard of the gun will grab/press into the retention tab connected to the release and prevent you from pushing the button down and the gun won't come out. Under stress, when you are yanking on the gun and trying to unsuccessfully push a button with the flat of your finger, it won't take much to curl that finger and push harder. Luckily, I didn't curl my finger and got through the class before some stupid shit happened. The warnings of all the M4C members were echoing in my head and I kept my finger F-ing straight as hell. I didn't want to be THAT GUY!
The thing is, I didn't realize exactly what was going on, until I broke the events down after I got home and started thinking about it, and actually recreated the problem consistently.
I saw a border patrol agent doing the same thing with his SERPA at a TigerSwan Pistol/Carbine class later on and told him what was going on. He decided that he was going holster shopping immediately after the class.
The SERPA is prohibited at my agency.
By my local SO as well.
C4
By my local SO as well.
C4
I like how there is such a stark contrast between some agencies, like mine, where the Serpa is standard issue, and others where it is actually prohibited from use.
NCPatrolAR
06-15-11, 22:25
Another issue with the Serpa (when using it on the belt) is the weakness of the mounting system when doing weapon retention. I've seen several of the holsters tear away from the mount when a large amount of pressure was added to them. I wouldnt recommend their use for anything outside of simple range carry.
I've been looking into Safariland, is there a place where I can purchase just the holsters? All the models that fit the bill I can only find with drop leg platforms I don't need.
I've been looking into Safariland, is there a place where I can purchase just the holsters? All the models that fit the bill I can only find with drop leg platforms I don't need.
Lots of places:
http://www.google.com/search?q=safariland+6377&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1#q=safariland+6377&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbo=u&tbm=shop&source=og&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wf&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=82c3fc76afd76020&biw=1103&bih=655
I like how there is such a stark contrast between some agencies, like mine, where the Serpa is standard issue, and others where it is actually prohibited from use.
It is interesting. The head firearms instructor (same guy that helps me teach classes) is a very switched on dude with lots of training under Hackathorn and Vickers. This directly influences the policies he establishes.
I can talk to an SO or PD firearms instructor and within 5 minutes know if they have a clue or not.
Another PD local to me is the exact opposite to my county SO. They use Glock 19's and are not allowed to use anything other than the plastic "space holder" sights that came with the guns (read NS's are not allowed and not needed). They also are not allowed to have weapon mounted lights. :jester:
C4
Are they even allowed to go on calls at night.....tthose could be dangerous you know....:rolleyes:
They also are not allowed to have weapon mounted lights. :jester:
C4
Not uncommon.
Sometimes, it's based on the opinions and predisposition of an agency "gun guy."
Sometimes, a lack of willingness by the agency to provide or regulate individually purchased gear within a quality standard.
Often times, such a prohibition is made after an initial or trial fielding during which troops had their clown shoes on and created justifiable concerns. Seen, many times.
Thanks to all you guys for a thread like this. Seems like a good place for a first post. I've been around for awhile reading and soaking up info. I'm still huge noob when it comes to separating tactical from tacticool stuff. And to me the Serpa looks like a great little holster. I had never thought of the finger curl issue at all til reading this.
CenterTree
06-16-11, 18:53
Thanks to all you guys for a thread like this. Seems like a good place for a first post. I've been around for awhile reading and soaking up info. I'm still huge noob when it comes to separating tactical from tacticool stuff. And to me the Serpa looks like a great little holster. I had never thought of the finger curl issue at all til reading this.
Basic Pistol Course = $150
Serpa Holster = $30
Info given to noobs on M4C = Priceless
Thanks to all you guys for a thread like this. Seems like a good place for a first post. I've been around for awhile reading and soaking up info. I'm still huge noob when it comes to separating tactical from tacticool stuff. And to me the Serpa looks like a great little holster. I had never thought of the finger curl issue at all til reading this.
It happens when you're under stress. I practiced a lot when I was at home and never had it happen.
Put a person on a line with other shooters, induce some stress, and require them to perform to either a timer or a sudden shouted command and sometimes people do funny things.
I remember Pat saying, "Ok, shooters, on my command, turn to face the targets and moving forward from the 10 to 5 yard line, put two rounds center mass into the first target, two rounds center mass into the second target, then one to the brain of #2 and then one to the brain of #1"
Followed by a pause......"UP!!!"
Then me, trying to concentrate on turning correctly (we were taught a certain way to move), not drawing until I was facing downrange so I didn't muzzle sweep anyone, drawing quickly once I was oriented properly, and trying to remember the drill sequence, promptly attempted to draw the gun a fraction of a second before my index finger fully engaged the SERPA release, and successfully gave myself a wedgie three times before I got the release activated.
And this wasn't the only time it happened....
Basic Pistol Course = $150
Serpa Holster = $30
Info given to noobs on M4C = Priceless
Yep! I've done one half day class and one 3 hr class but I used my IWB holster for both since the were focused on concealed/defensive shooting.
Nobody_Special
06-18-11, 01:25
The problem is they are so readily available and many people recommend (wrongly) them. I had one and thought it was great. I practiced drawing from in and felt confident with it. That is until I took my first class. My reloads with my AR went flawlessly mostly due to my redi-mod but every time I transitioned to my secondary I could not draw my weapon first try. Fortunately my life was not on the line just my pride.
Sent from my brain using Tapatalk
Serpa holsters of some model/generation or another are also one of the standard issue holsters for the agency I work for as well.
I used to take it upon myself to briefly mention the possible problems that can occur while using this holster to other agents but I stopped doing that a long time ago. My suggestions held no weight compared to gun magazine promotions and internet photos of them in use.
Agents always cite their improved draw speed while using the Serpas though. That's fine and good, but the thing that turned me away from using one was seeing documented cases of them failing should some kind of debris lodge itself into the release mechanism. We work in the desert where a myriad of natural debris can find itself in that holster and F it up. I was not worried about the potential ND because I believe and always will that that is more of a training issue.
Our other approved holster choice is a Safariland 6280 and it seems that more and more, there is much hate for this simple yet effective holster. I would say three out of five agents have switched from the Safariland to some kind of Serpa. Agents always cite that while on walks, the hood comes open and their pistols have fallen out with the Safariland. I am not sure, but I believe this is more common among our more "robust" agents.
The one area where the Serpa is in fact better than the Safariland that only concerns uniformed LEO/LEA is that the Serpa appears to be more difficult for successful gun grabs.
I gave my issued Serpas away to some Barney Fife at work. I'm doing a detail right now where I am not even in the field and I still will not use a Serpa.
i've heard of people who wear belt rigs using the safariland holster, hit the hood with their elbow while running and have their pistols go flying out. i don't know about you guys, but i can easily seeing this happen to anyone.
i think all the holster systems have shortcomings...
titsonritz
06-29-11, 20:47
i've heard of people who wear belt rigs using the safariland holster, hit the hood with their elbow while running and have their pistols go flying out. i don't know about you guys, but i can easily seeing this happen to anyone.
Than the retention screws are not properly tightened.
Than the retention screws are not properly tightened.
Is there a tension setting that will prevent the gun from comin out when one is at full sprint and still makes the gun drawable?
I took a defensive handgun class and the instructor indicated in his prep list that under no circumstances would he allow anyone to use the Serpa holster, for the exact reasons provided in this thread. I had one at the time, and it's been sitting in a drawer ever since.
Than the retention screws are not properly tightened.
+1 on the retention screw. It should be tightened just enough so the gun will not fall out when the holster is held upside down.
Hmm... I have been using a Serpa holster for off-duty since they came out. Neary a problem for me. I have even rolled on the ground fighting shitbags on several occasions. I have found it to be a secure holster and if you practice basic gun safety the button is not a problem.
Most of the ND cases I have read about involved the shooter still having his finger on the trigger when re-holstering the pistol. ND would have happened with any holster in these cases. The proper way to release the "switch" or what ever is with the finger riding straight along the side of the holster using the "pad" of the index finger. It's a natural movement IMO.
As far as the belt attachments being weak. That is usually the case with most plastic holsters. I agree Safariland makes a much better design and its my choice out on the job.
It is interesting. The head firearms instructor (same guy that helps me teach classes) is a very switched on dude with lots of training under Hackathorn and Vickers. This directly influences the policies he establishes.
I can talk to an SO or PD firearms instructor and within 5 minutes know if they have a clue or not.
Another PD local to me is the exact opposite to my county SO. They use Glock 19's and are not allowed to use anything other than the plastic "space holder" sights that came with the guns (read NS's are not allowed and not needed). They also are not allowed to have weapon mounted lights. :jester:
While the place holder sights policy is dumb as all get out, I do understand the weapon mounted light position if its being done for the right reasons. I spent my career with an agency whose ranks numbered in the four thousand range. There was a period of time where weapon lights were allowed for patrol officers and the rate of ND's went up drastically. Our tactical training unit looked at the cost and time involved in adding weapon mounted light training evolutions to the curriculum and it was determined that the cost was simply too high. So the weapon lights went bye-bye for all but tac units.
When considering costs for training like that, one has to remember that training time is precious and departments are being piled with more and more required training every year. Pressure from the federal and state governments to include various legal training, blah blah. The cost of the training is usually proportional to the size of the agency and the costs involved encompass paying for the instructors to become certified and to maintain a certification to teach low light tactics with a weapon mounted light. Instructors need to be sanctioned for legal reasons to protect the agency. It involved more pay for the instructors and their students due to increased training time, more ammo, etc. Many agencies would be contractually required to supply the lights and holsters too. Costs add up fast.
I'm not saying I agree 100% with all this, but in today's world, costs play a major factor in the frequency, quality and type of training that departments provide. There's a lot of places that have frozen hiring and many that are laying off. As a career SWAT officer I can say with some authority that many agencies do not have the best interest of the officer in mind. They and their parent government look out for their ass and wallet first.
On the subject of the SERPA. It was banned from my state's regional training academy. I have personally seen, on several occasions, weapons become jammed in the holster. Some to the point that the holster had to be destroyed to remove the weapon. The release mechanism can become jammed with small pieces of debris (like small rocks or clay soil like the kind found in the Southwest) and seize up. I will not own one of these holsters.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYvAxLX6OzE&feature=feedu
despite the excuses in the video the slow motion frames do a great job showing in graphic detail why a trigger finger activated release mechanism on a holster is such a bad idea.
Rule#3 Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.
tomalibrando
07-04-11, 10:01
I'll jump on this band wagon. At our place we have seen two significant issues with the Serpa. One was a thigh mounted rig and the student was rolling around on the ground doing those drills we make them do. He attempted to transition to pistol a little later and... no joy. A small rock wedged itself in the latch mechanism. He had to bang on the holster to dislodge the desbris, then he could draw the weapon. One weapon had the pin slide out that the latch fulcrums onto. I think its just held in by friction. He had to reach accross, align the latch then depress the button to withdraw the weapon.
The guys running the chest mounted rigs might not be getting them in the dirt because of the location of the system, so there are no real issues. If they are, make sure the mechanism is clear, please. The guy on the military channel throws it in snow which also locks up the system. Something I had not looked into. But for the guys in the midwest or in a mountain region, say the Hindu Kush, a real potential problem.
Reference the trigger finger sliding onto the trigger; the button is located on the frame area of the weapon, so if you drag the finger along the latch, thats theoretically where it should land. Pushing as opposed to dragging may be the influence putting the finger on the trigger prematurely. I'm by no means defending the system, its just that other folks have shot themselves while drawing "fast" and it wasn't always a Serpa that was the culprit. DireWulf is experiencing the pain that many have who have beaten the system up a bit.
I'll jump on this band wagon....
A moment of silence as Tom has jumped on the bandwagon :p
I clearly remember the same SERPA conversation we had all those years ago... those were the days.
Hope all is well bro.
titsonritz
07-04-11, 19:10
I’d like to thank Tex for his selfless sacrifice and demonstrating why he Blackhawk Serpa sucks. :p
Saw this one regarding "weapon retention drill" exercises as explained by the officer. Video appears to have been uploaded March 2011.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOBEJvMZ_f4
Ok, I guess it's time to ditch the serpa. I'm slowly upgrading from uninformed purchases I made in the past. I'm planning on a ravens concealment holster for daily use but for now I'm looking at a simple belt retention holster for my riggers belt just to be used at the range for my m&p9. I was considering a fobus but it seems they have issues also. Any suggestions appreciated.
QuietShootr
07-05-11, 09:37
Ok, I guess it's time to ditch the serpa. I'm slowly upgrading from uninformed purchases I made in the past. I'm planning on a ravens concealment holster for daily use but for now I'm looking at a simple belt retention holster for my riggers belt just to be used at the range for my m&p9. I was considering a fobus but it seems they have issues also. Any suggestions appreciated.
Fobus sucks ass. Save the 20 bucks and put it toward a Raven.
Heavy Metal
07-05-11, 09:54
Ok, I guess it's time to ditch the serpa. I'm slowly upgrading from uninformed purchases I made in the past. I'm planning on a ravens concealment holster for daily use but for now I'm looking at a simple belt retention holster for my riggers belt just to be used at the range for my m&p9. I was considering a fobus but it seems they have issues also. Any suggestions appreciated.
Safariland ALS. A terrific, high-quality holster.
Maybe opt for the safariland als for now. I have an uncle mikes 2" rigger's belt. Certainly a reasonable cost. If anyone has a better source, I'm open for suggestions.
http://www.opticsplanet.net/safariland-6377-als-belt-holster-stx-plain-black-right-hand-6377-219-411.html
Thanks guys.
Maybe opt for the safariland als for now. I have an uncle mikes 2" rigger's belt. Certainly a reasonable cost. If anyone has a better source, I'm open for suggestions.
http://www.opticsplanet.net/safariland-6377-als-belt-holster-stx-plain-black-right-hand-6377-219-411.html
Thanks guys.
Opticsplanet is good-to-go. Just call them with the exact part# to confirm that they have it in-stock before you order.
Thanks Nick, it's back ordered. Shouldn't take them too long to restock. Goodbye serpa.
Man, that video really puts it into perspective. Actually seeing it happen.
That guy shouldn't serve as evidence for anything...except for what happens when you mix stupid with dangerous.
You can't use this as an example of the SERPA causing a problem. Clearly the problem exists with this loser. That he was wearing a SERPA when he shot himself is irrelevant.
It's completely irrelevant to SERPA apologists whose delusion is bolstered by stating it as such. That said, even where it IS relevant, it's only one of several factors. I personally have far less of a problem with the release and how its actuated than I do with how easily it's jammed up, but it's also not the most sensible arrangement from a work-flow perspective.
"We want you to move that finger in X way to start the process of drawing, but you have to make sure it stays in Y position for a moment, then you re-initiate moving it in the exact same X-way to shoot the gun." Given that there's ways to take the trigger finger out of the equation of the draw in its entirety, it's ill-advised; presumes too much unconscious control on the part of the user. Definitely something that can be attenuated and almost completely eliminated through proper training, but we all know that there are those that are as resistant to that as there are infections resistant to antibiotics.
Does the release CAUSE NDs? Nah, no more than pencils cause misspellings.
Is the release a potential failure point, an open door for those with shitty technique to stumble through? Yeah, in precisely the same way that those that still design and produce holsters in which the trigger guard isn't covered. It's a mechanical aspect that allows for a way higher possibility of a procedural error....which is in no way unique to a lot of stuff out there.
The only thing clear in that video is that the argument will continue to rage. To me, cross-decking between holsters that have completely different functions to release is "clearly" the culprit...here we are back to people and their shitty decision loops...but even that's faceted enough to not warrant "clearlies" being tossed hither and yon.
Perspective matters. Hell, that cat's hat gives me all sorts of clues as to the way he wargames decisions in his head; clues that would make me inclined to disregard 70% of anything he had to say that didn't involve ATVs and Lone Star beer....and that doesn't make me right...so there's no One Right Way to look at anything we see in that video.
Whatever; the dude knows, at some level, that he's gonna take shit, and still put the vid up there in a "lessons-learned" effort. Not everybody would do that, so I have to hand him some credit.
You can't use this as an example of the SERPA causing a problem. Clearly the problem exists with this loser. That he was wearing a SERPA when he shot himself is irrelevant.
Not quite. The holster is poorly designed and utilizes a release mechanism and technique that is less than ideal. The "trigger finger straight along the frame" holstering and drawing technique was clearly the impetus for the design, but that trigger finger really shouldn't be doing anything but staying put on that frame or waiting for the frame to clear the kydex until such time as the shooter is ready to fire. The technique can be learned with proper training, but there are better alternatives to this holster that don't come with the risk of jammed release mechanisms.
It's completely irrelevant to SERPA apologists whose delusion is bolstered by stating it as such. That said, even where it IS relevant, it's only one of several factors. I personally have far less of a problem with the release and how its actuated than I do with how easily it's jammed up, but it's also not the most sensible arrangement from a work-flow perspective.
It's a poor design that reminds me of the old clamshell revolver holsters. They were "innovative" but had their own set of unique drawbacks and safety issues that made them not worth the risk to a professional whose life depends on their kit.
ChristisKing
07-08-11, 06:32
You know whats funny about this whole thing, I have a serpa 1911 holster and I did several draws from it after watching the video. I discovered my trigger finger was on the slide not in the frickin trigger guard. This holster is fine it's the people who don't know how to use a HOLSTER that shoot themselves. Your trigger finger should always be extended along your slide and out of the trigger guard on a draw no matter what holster you use kydex/leather no retention/retention or level 1/2/3 retention. It's not the holster it is the people who would have done this drawing from any holster.
That guy shouldn't serve as evidence for anything...except for what happens when you mix stupid with dangerous.
You can't use this as an example of the SERPA causing a problem. Clearly the problem exists with this loser. That he was wearing a SERPA when he shot himself is irrelevant.
yeah, this guy is easy to pick on because of his personality, mannerisms, etc... but looking at some of his other videos, he has at least an average level of gun handling skill.
the discussion is not "do extremely skilled operators shoot themselves with regularity using this holster?", but "is this a potential hazard?"
the answer is obviously yes and to me, it comes down to degrees. how do I want to stack the deck in regard to my personal safety?..
Few people can be relied on to engage in precision movements when full of adrenaline, which is why serpa = bullet in the leg.
You know whats funny about this whole thing, I have a serpa 1911 holster and I did several draws from it after watching the video. I discovered my trigger finger was on the slide not in the frickin trigger guard. This holster is fine it's the people who don't know how to use a HOLSTER that shoot themselves. Your trigger finger should always be extended along your slide and out of the trigger guard on a draw no matter what holster you use kydex/leather no retention/retention or level 1/2/3 retention. It's not the holster it is the people who would have done this drawing from any holster.
true. but people are not robots and are prone to botching things under pressure or stress or pushing themselves past an acquired level of proficiency.
to say it hasn't happened "yet" is not the same as saying it can never happen...
If curling of the finger is the problem isnt it going to happen more with people who have longer fingers too?
ChristisKing
07-08-11, 09:35
No because all you have to do is touch it with the side of your finger. It doesn't release to the finger tip unless that where your finger rests.
To the seasoned shooters comment and the serpa being dangerous I meant he could have been using any holster and shot himself.
No because all you have to do is touch it with the side of your finger. It doesn't release to the finger tip unless that where your finger rests.
To the seasoned shooters comment and the serpa being dangerous I meant he could have been using any holster and shot himself.
Dude had been practicing with a different holster and switched. Muscle memory was screwed up.
I saw your earlier post and at first I quite agreed - with the 1911, the release button is along the side of the frame and that's where your finger ought to be when you draw... in fact, it's right over the slide stop pin, which is where I like to keep my trigger finger when it isn't on the trigger. So, I agreed with you - thinking it was GTG with a 1911.
But..... no. Seeing it actually happen with a 1911? Like jmp45, I'm ditching my Serpas.
Time to make my kit more M4C compliant :p
You know whats funny about this whole thing, I have a serpa 1911 holster and I did several draws from it after watching the video. I discovered my trigger finger was on the slide not in the frickin trigger guard. This holster is fine it's the people who don't know how to use a HOLSTER that shoot themselves. Your trigger finger should always be extended along your slide and out of the trigger guard on a draw no matter what holster you use kydex/leather no retention/retention or level 1/2/3 retention. It's not the holster it is the people who would have done this drawing from any holster.
I'm glad you were able to safely use the holster in the confines of a stress free environment while being conscious of your trigger finger placement. Unfortunately, the holster is not fine. It's a poor design that is prone to failure. As has been amply demonstrated by professionals, including myself, who have seen it fail repeatedly in training conditions in ways that will eventually get someone killed. Defending the purchase and continued use of a piece of sub standard kit out of ego, fear of embarrassment or whatever the case might be, is all too common in the firearms world. It's unfortunate because there are better pieces of equipment than the SERPA in the same price range on the market, but for some reason people keep buying this piece of junk and overly defensive owners see ownership of it as some kind of hill to plant a flag and die on. Glad it has worked for you and I hope it works when you need it most.
ChristisKing
07-08-11, 11:57
Whatever makes you happy.
Failure2Stop
07-08-11, 12:34
Doing ground work and literally ripping SERPAs off of students with my bare hands makes me happy.
Doing ground work and literally ripping SERPAs off of students with my bare hands makes me happy.
Something I've not had happen to my Safariland, Raven or Cane and Derby holsters. All of which are more than affordable for a person looking at a SERPA. Good point, F2S. I forgot about ground drills and the struggle that ensues in the scramble for the blue gun. It's an eye opener for sure.
Doing ground work and literally ripping SERPAs off of students with my bare hands makes me happy.
You mean like what happened to the SERPAs in this video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOBEJvMZ_f4&feature=related
You mean like what happened to the SERPAs in this video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOBEJvMZ_f4&feature=related
Good post. I have seen those types of failures numerous times. As I stated earlier, the law enforcement academy where I taught previously and the one I'm at now will not allow those holsters through the door. Look carefully folks. If you're using this holster for your duty weapon or as a CCW rig, you're doing yourself a disservice. Start shopping for a replacement. The word has been out on these crappy holsters for years. I can't believe the conversation continues.
titsonritz
07-08-11, 19:06
The word has been out on these crappy holsters for years. I can't believe the conversation continues.
I am with you there man, it just ****ing blows me away these are not only still around but are as popular and vigorously defended as they are, I just don’t get it. I agree with your post above regarding ego/embarrassment being a major factor. Get over it people, these holsters are shit.
I have never had a problem with my SERPA locking up, but I have to say the way to release the gun is counter intuitive. After not using the SERPA for a while it took me several seconds to get my mind together and figure out how to draw from it - luckily this was range time.
Time to look for something else.
Can someone summarize the available holster choices that come with a lock?
We got:
Safariland ALS
5.11 Thumb drive
What else?
Go with the Safariland ALS. They have a dozen or so different configurations available. As a direct replacement for the SERPA CQC I would recommend the model #6377/6378
titsonritz
07-09-11, 01:15
ALS all the way.
Another vote for the ALS. It is available in a myriad of configurations and it's built well.
Larry Vickers
07-09-11, 19:29
FYI - Serpa holsters are no longer authorized in my classes
I am in Pittsburgh this weekend ( July 9-10) and these classes will be the last with Serpas allowed as the students did not get the word in time to change - I have 3 LE students in the class with them
I am not the first to ban them (Gunsite already has) and I am sure I will not be the last
Please pass the word to anyone planning on attending one of my classes in the future
Be safe
LAV
Good to know....safariland it is then.
ALS all the way.
I agree. The Safariland ALS (6360) is the best duty holster that I have used. I highly recommend it.
titsonritz
07-10-11, 02:22
I agree. The Safariland ALS (6360) is the best duty holster that I have used. I highly recommend it.
I've got the same model, great holster.
For the time being, can't find anything better form any holster maker than a 6360.
Go with the Safariland ALS. They have a dozen or so different configurations available. As a direct replacement for the SERPA CQC I would recommend the model #6377/6378
I'm currently running the 6378 and I really like this holster as well. If retention is not a priority, I like my Raven Concealment Holsters just as much.
I am with you there man, it just ****ing blows me away these are not only still around but are as popular and vigorously defended as they are, I just don’t get it. I agree with your post above regarding ego/embarrassment being a major factor. Get over it people, these holsters are shit.
I believe they continue to be popular due to them being pretty much standard issue to every member of the armed forces and a lot of LE. And their cheap. And people think Blackhawk is good.
Failure2Stop
07-26-11, 20:29
I believe they continue to be popular due to them being pretty much standard issue to every member of the armed forces and a lot of LE. And their cheap. And people think Blackhawk is good.
And that's what blows my mind, the price gap isn't that drastic, unless you happen to be in procurement, in which case it would appear that you must pay for the lot out of salary.
Does anyone know where Mr Hackathorn stands regarding serpas?
Does anyone know where Mr Hackathorn stands regarding serpas?
100% against them.
C4
highlighter
09-06-11, 22:05
I, along with many others I worked with used SERPA holsters...nary a problem. Gave me 3 years service in Iraq with no NDs. Thinking operator error over design.
http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc313/Belt_Fed_Red/n747681689_2487614_5658.jpg
+1 I don't own one but I've seen lots of pics from Iraq of our Elite forces using them, sooooo.
I do find it funny that there was one infamous "firearms instructor" who said that no Serpa holsters would be allowed in any of his classes until he became a big time BH dealer. Go fingure.
I wonder if 1911 users have problems with this holster? They have a safety on the pistol to disengage where other types of pistols don't.
+1 I don't own one but I've seen lots of pics from Iraq of our Elite forces using them, sooooo.
This is meaningless. As was said earlier, the word is out on them and they're garbage. Anyone who's carrying one likely has not seen them fail. If they did, they'd look for something else. I've seen so many of them fail catastrophically it's not even funny. One had to be broken apart to get the gun out. I've seen them ripped off belts with ease and I've seen the button jammed with debris and fail to disengage. You ought to talk to some attendees of a SouthNarc class and see how often these things get ripped off belts and broken. Just because it's issued or has a GSA number, doesn't make it a smart thing to carry. They are junk and there are far better holsters in their price range that won't fail so easily.
jgcl05@yahoo.com
09-07-11, 10:05
Great thread! I've used a serpa maybe twice, and I can't stand it. They're flimsy and I always worry about squeezing so hard to get the button released on my draw that I'm going to pull the trigger on the draw stroke. I love my 6378 and use it daily. Safariland for the win!
Carried a Beretta 92FS in one decocked, safety off for about a year. Shot IDPA on average of probably once a month with it, as did a lot of other people. Practiced drawing, firing, etc. with it at least weekly.
Never did shoot myself, but then again I don't pull the trigger when it's pointed at my leg so that may have been a key factor.
I've read all the hatred of it on the internet- don't really care. It works for me and I like it. I removed the tension screw so it is retained by the SERPA lock only- makes it really smooth to draw and holster.
If they made one for the FNP-9, I'd get one- for now, though, it resides in a Desantis kydex paddle holster. (I really like that one.)
Here's a few for all of you people who "don't care" about whether this holster is a piece of shit or not. If you want to play shooting games at the range with it, fine. Hope it works for you. If you're using it for duty, you're nuts.
SouthNarc:
http://bcove.me/gi9dsujh
Got snow in your AO?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxpXUN4bMb4&feature=player_embedded
From a newb...
Thank you Grant. I had literally purchased the Serpa about 3 days before I read your post. I promptly returned it and bought a Safariland ALS for my Glock 26. A world of difference. I can't believe the difference in quality and function. The Serpa is incredibly low quality - I just never would have been aware.
This is exactly the purpose of sites like this. I appreciate your time and advice very much. Cheers...
Sometimes things get a little overblown when it comes to holsters and such. When it comes to the Serpa they are pieces of shit and shouldn't be considered for serious use.
I have been tasked with compiling a list of all schools and ranges that have banned the Serpa Holster. Any help is appreciated.
xrayoneone
09-27-11, 10:07
I've seen broken trigger guards on HK P2000s from these holsters.
So if it hasn't been mentioned there is one more reason to hate the things.
I have been tasked with compiling a list of all schools and ranges that have banned the Serpa Holster. Any help is appreciated.
Why would this info be needed?
C4
From a newb...
Thank you Grant. I had literally purchased the Serpa about 3 days before I read your post. I promptly returned it and bought a Safariland ALS for my Glock 26. A world of difference. I can't believe the difference in quality and function. The Serpa is incredibly low quality - I just never would have been aware.
This is exactly the purpose of sites like this. I appreciate your time and advice very much. Cheers...
You are welcome.
Two weeks ago, I had an experienced LE guy tell me that he nearly shot himself with his Serpa (ND). Was attempting to remove the weapon from the holster and it was stuck. So he pushed harder on the button which in turn put his finger in the PERFECT position to enter into the triggerguard.
People can choose to look at the Serpa in two different ways. It is a "training issue" with the holster OR that the holster sets the shooter up for failure and it is just a matter of time before they shoot themselves.
The more we are around guns, the more chances we have at getting shot. I personally do not want anything that helps with this.
YMMV.
C4
jklaughrey
09-27-11, 10:28
I was at our indoor here locally and a couple of "younger" maybe 21-23 y/o were taking turns quick drawing from a Serpa. I noticed this as I walked to my lane. Decided rather than let them know this was an accident looking for a place to happen. I promptly exited, told the RO who was on that shift. He looks at me and slyly moves his look a like "members only" jacket to the side and displays... a Serpa. I shook my head, went to the counter, got a refund and then stated I wouldn't be renewing my annual membership.
Was a decent indoor, but the former owner died last month and the son sold it so he could "find himself". I think once word gets out business will decline and the only customers will be ninjas' in ACU's.
I shook my head, went to the counter, got a refund and then stated I wouldn't be renewing my annual membership.
You quit a range because someone was using a Serpa? Other than the "quick draw" (which most people like to practice) were they doing anything else unsafe?
If I ran from Serpas I'd have no where to shoot.
jklaughrey
09-27-11, 11:20
You quit a range because someone was using a Serpa? Other than the "quick draw" (which most people like to practice) were they doing anything else unsafe?
If I ran from Serpas I'd have no where to shoot.
Yes, when a RO I have never seen before and don't know his background looks like a deer in headlights and basically dismisses my concerns for safety, esp. in regards to 2 kids playing Combat Carl grab ass jeopardizing my safety and others by passing a loaded firearm back and forth without regard. YES! My safety and business are best served elsewhere.
Combat Carl grab ass
Roger that. "Combat Carl grab ass" differs greatly from "taking turns quick drawing from a Serpa". If they were passing a loaded firearm back and forth then I would have left as well.
Keeping on subject here, at what point should you feel a piece of equipment is so unsafe that not only won't you use it, but you won't even stay on a range with someone else using it.
From your description above, can I assume that you would have left the range if they were using an ALS instead?
jklaughrey
09-27-11, 11:54
Regardless of what holster they had, I would have left. The fact that I decided to cancel my membership was based on the RO I didn't know and his apparent apathy regarding safety concerns of patrons. But yeah, the Serpa holsters that ACU ninjas had and the RO was just ****ing icing that assured me that I needed to un-ass the area never to return.
Why would this info be needed?
C4
Because we are trying to do away with them as duty holsters and we need all the ammo we can get
FPF Training.
Larry Vickers.
Todd Greene, with a pass given to those whose agency issues it to them.
Gunsite, if I recall correctly, but it may just be that they find it undesirable due to clearly demonstrated lock-up problems (which is why I hate them), and is not specifically forbidden.
There's others, that's what jumps up immediately.
monkeywrencher
10-03-11, 21:51
Because we are trying to do away with them as duty holsters and we need all the ammo we can get
I am in a similar position. We have Serpas approved for our off duty/low profile carry rigs. When I recently sent an e-mail informing members of the firearms committee a note stating we should look at reevaluting our approved holsters, a shit storm broke out! I was told that Serpas are fine and that if we listened to forum posters nothing would ever be approved.
Now we are finally getting our issued Tasers with....Serpa holsters. And I am going to beat the drum again. Any name credibility helps...
monkeywrencher
10-03-11, 21:51
Because we are trying to do away with them as duty holsters and we need all the ammo we can get
I am in a similar position. We have Serpa's approved for our off duty/low profile carry rigs. When I recently sent an e-mail informing members of the firearms committee stating we should look at reevaluating our approved holsters, a shit storm broke out! I was told that Serpa's are fine and that if we listened to forum posters nothing would ever be approved.
Now we are finally getting our issued Tasers with....Serpa holsters. And I am going to beat the drum again. Any name credibility helps...
I am in a similar position. We have Serpa's approved for our off duty/low profile carry rigs. When I recently sent an e-mail informing members of the firearms committee stating we should look at reevaluating our approved holsters, a shit storm broke out! I was told that Serpa's are fine and that if we listened to forum posters nothing would ever be approved.
Now we are finally getting our issued Tasers with....Serpa holsters. And I am going to beat the drum again. Any name credibility helps...
The Taser Serpa holster isn't that big of a deal... it rocks out instead of drawing straight up, it's non-lethal, and you shouldn't be drawing it with the same sense of urgency that one might draw a firearm.
If you ND an EDW, oh well.
Don't get me wrong, I hate the SERPA's, but for the X26 or X2 they're not all that bad.
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