View Full Version : BAD-ASS 45* Ambi Safety
LowSpeed_HighDrag
06-11-11, 00:05
I recently purchased a BAD-ASS-45* Ambi Safety lever from Battle Arms Development. I've hated the 90* design on the AR platform, and after handling MP5s, I knew there had to be a better design on the market. Apparently, there is. I know this has been discussed here before and may not be new to alot of folks, but to me this is revolutionary.
Because a milspec lower will have "Safe" and "Fire" at 90*, the 45* safety will not point to fire when disengaged. Because of this, the safety will be shipped with a small pin to prevent it from being used in normal lowers as a liability reason. This pin is easily filed off with a hand file from a Gerber in a matter of minutes, maybe even seconds with a determined individual. After removing the pin (its made of a VERY soft metal and will go away easily, have no fear), the safety can be installed by removing your pistol grip, spring, detent, and original safety. Then place your 45* safety into your lower, screw your ambi throw lever into the opposite side, and then reinstall your components (simple stuff folks).
(Photo belongs to Battle Arms Development)
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f198/glockfire/Guns%20and%20Gear/45degreeselectorblock.jpg
The throw levers of your safety can be changed out with different offerings from BAD, including standard, thin, short, short+thin, hybrid, or a simple endcap to remove ambi features. BAD recommends two short lever, and I agree with them. I am currently sporting a standard and a short, but I just ordered a second BAD-ASS 45* with a Short and short+thin because I like this thing so much.
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f198/glockfire/Guns%20and%20Gear/DSC01595.jpg
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f198/glockfire/Guns%20and%20Gear/DSC01596.jpg
The 45* engages with a solid click and offers extremely smooth operation. To switch it on and off, the only movement required is a simple flick of the thumb, rather than moving your hand with the original 90*. I'll never be able to go back to the normal setup again as this things is just genius.
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f198/glockfire/Guns%20and%20Gear/DSC01598.jpg
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f198/glockfire/Guns%20and%20Gear/DSC01600.jpg
I have one that I installed about 2 months ago. I can easily tell the difference when going from SAFE- FIRE. My Dremel made easy work of that pin in about 60 seconds.
Thank you LowSpeed for the review!
As many of the m4carbinet regulars know, we had to make it incompatible because the 45 degree selector's pointer does not go to 12 o'clock, but more like 10 o'clock, thus creating a liability issue for us, and potentially for the customer if he lets someone handles it that may not be as safe, or aware that it's not a conventional 90 degree throw.
45/90 compatible receivers have a hole on the left of the selector hole to accept the pin block, and the new Fire/pictogram engraving is located at 68 degrees as to be suitable for both 45 and 90 degree selectors.
AXTS, TOS (you know what I mean ;)) have 45/90 compatible receivers, and soon Spikes too. Our hope is to, over time, through more 45/90 compatible receivers, make the 45 degree arrangement a valid option for lower receivers, whereas now it may be seen as a niche, wild cat and even boutique item.
When folks realize that the concept is nothing new, and has been found on weapons dating back to the Cold War weapons such as FAL and G3, and the manual of arms does not change much (Fire is still a downward press on the lever, Safe is in the same place, except now you can use the tip of your thumb to put it back on Safe without shifting your grips), these facts may overcome the reluctance to give up something old and familiar (the 90 degree arrangement).
But the ironic thing is it's very similar to the old an familiar 90 degree throw, only everything is now much faster.
Iraqgunz, I haven't forgotten about the m4carbine.net staff/mod code yet ;) You and other mods have been very kind to us from day one, we're grateful for you putting up with us before we became a paying sponsor :)
I really didn't know what a difference it made till I just recently bought a SCAR and I actually like the short throw of the selector. Looking forward to buying the BADASS one soon.
I found it to be a logical progression of the AR platform. For the semi-auto FCG, it eliminates wasted motion in bringing the weapon to bear and speeds up the cycle of readiness, therefore allowing a few milliseconds more for sighting and trigger press. Efficiency at it's simplest.... Now, just waiting for the CASS 3P version to drop.:)
I'll be ordering one soon! :smile:
Slvr Surfr
06-11-11, 08:23
This forum is hell on my wallet! :sad:
If you guys buy an AXTS forged or the upcoming fully ambidextrous billet receiver with a 45 degree selector together, the 45 degree selector is a lot less ;)
Mauser KAR98K
06-11-11, 09:52
There is a Goddess.
Being a former G3 owner, and played with MP5 types for airsoft, I miss their selectors. Problem solved.
Who is that is selling them with the SSA triggers? Are they combining them with the 45*?
We do have a 45 degree + Geissele bundle http://shop.battlearmsdevelopment.com/BAD-ASS-ST-GEISSELE-TRIGGER-COMBO-FREE-SHIPPING-BAD-ASS-ST-GEISSELE.htm
And if you're MIL, LEO, firefighter or EMT personnel, please email me for discount info ;)
Mauser KAR98K
06-11-11, 10:22
And if you're MIL, LEO, firefighter or EMT personnel, please email me for discount info ;)
Guess I'm gonna have to wait. :)
Why wait? Please email me ;)
madcratebuilder
06-11-11, 10:49
If you guys buy an AXTS forged or the upcoming fully ambidextrous billet receiver with a 45 degree selector together, the 45 degree selector is a lot less ;)
I didn't see the BAD as an option when I did the pre-order from Rainier on my new billet AXTS or I have have added it. I need to order two from you guys anyway.
Sorry I should clarify. If the lower is bought from AXTS, the 45 degree selector is an option, it's I believe $20 less than retail when it's bundled with a receiver.
Rainier does carry the 45 degree selectors, but Rainier does not have a bundled price.
:)
Failure2Stop
06-11-11, 11:55
It's about time someone made one of these.
This thread should be moved from AR general discussion to the BAD threads so people can see all the information already posted on these products. They are truly top notch.
Failure2Stop
06-11-11, 12:15
This thread should be moved from AR general discussion to the BAD threads so people can see all the information already posted on these products. They are truly top notch.
Battle Arms is completely free to update their information in their products page. Here, it informs members that don't read each and every sub-forum.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
06-11-11, 12:20
Battle Arms is completely free to update their information in their products page. Here, it informs members that don't read each and every sub-forum.
Yup, thats why I put it here. I'm not paid by BAD nor was I asked to do a review, but when it comes to advances to this platform that make a whole lotta sense, its best to post where everyone looks.
Battle Arms is completely free to update their information in their products page. Here, it informs members that don't read each and every sub-forum.
Understood. There was talk of lack of views on their product in another thread. It's just my opinion that the quality of these products are up there with other companies that have been working hard on enhancing the AR platform like the gunfighter, for example. Thus, they should get as much "air time" as possible.
Thank you guys. The development history is pinned in our forum here https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=82851
Posts in general discussion do get more views, thank you Low Speed for parking it there :D We try to be respectful of the board and the mods by posting responses and technical details when we're asked, and new info now and then. I think in time folks will know to check our forum in the Manufacturer section as well, there we are not restricted by our self-imposed rules about not doing things that can be viewed as spamming the board. We are guests on this great board, and don't want to overstay our welcome ;)
Ridge_Runner_5
06-12-11, 14:54
There is a Goddess.
Are you Asari?
If you guys buy an AXTS forged or the upcoming fully ambidextrous billet receiver with a 45 degree selector together, the 45 degree selector is a lot less ;)
I have a question about the ambidextrous levers - can the levers be mounted facing different directions on the opposite of the gun?
ie., when you push the selector lever down on the support side, can the ejection side lever be mounted so it will rotate up?
this would allow me to use my trigger finger to push down on the lever to safe the weapon. is a small issue but for me it is something I would like to do...
I have a question about the ambidextrous levers - can the levers be mounted facing different directions on the opposite of the gun?
ie., when you push the selector lever down on the support side, can the ejection side lever be mounted so it will rotate up?
this would allow me to use my trigger finger to push down on the lever to safe the weapon. is a small issue but for me it is something I would like to do...
Yes you can!
Yes indeed, we have tried it and it works surprisingly well.
Please note that we do not advocate its use, as with the levers orientation reversed, they will block the Safe engraving while on safe. Also, if your receiver has selector stops as many do, this arrangement will not work.
The Colt SCAR entry has an arrangement like this, it was suggested that we did likewise. We rejected it because:
1. When the weapon is on Safe, it looks like an M16 receiver set to Auto/Burst.
2. It will not work with receivers with selector stops, unless we modified some levers. We wanted to keep the levers the same for 45 and 90 degree selectors.
3. We did not want to introduce too many changes all at once.
This is how it looks with the levers mounted in the opposite direction:
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i314/Duffypoo/45degreereversedlevers.jpg
;)
militarymoron
06-13-11, 10:51
I have a question about the ambidextrous levers - can the levers be mounted facing different directions on the opposite of the gun?
you can, but you need to think about how you'll manipulate the safety efficiently with the support hand as well.
I would keep it consistent, with the levers pointing at the same direction on both sides ;)
I have had "standard" BAS-ASS safeties on 5 AR's and an AR10 for a few months now and thought the AR safety couldn't get much better given their flawless machining and customizable functionality. Then Battle Arms sent me a 45degree one to try out and I found I was wrong!
The 45 safety is super fast and works like I always thought a safety should. It is especially good for going back on safe without having to rotate your hand, which I see as useful for close range work and obviously drills doing the same. I may convert my carbines to 45 and leave my precision guns with standard 90's. I have had no issues going back and forth between 45/90 guns but I suppose some people could. The only other issue I can see is that it is theoretically possible to knock the safety On/Off much easier now, but that may be overblown considering all the other guns that use similar safeties and maybe just on my gun because of a too good job of Frog Lubing all the parts!
http://i923.photobucket.com/albums/ad74/stocknum/45Safety.jpg
Thanks Dennis :)
Some of the argument for a 0-45-135 while we were taking surveys for a short throw select fire selector was that if the arrangement is all short throw (i.e. 0-45-45), it is easy overdo it and go to Auto while the user only wanted Semi.
While it's valid, we think it's mostly a training issue. AK's Safe-Auto-Semi, HK's 3 way or 4 way selector, SCAR's 3 way selector are all short throw. To me, it's not ideal to address a training issue with a mechanical solution, case in point: 3 round burst.
Anyway, the reason I brought this up is that we can argue for either side. A 90 degree arrangement requires deliberate action by the user at the expense of less than natural ergonomics, especially when switching the weapon back on Safe. A 45 degree arrangement is fast, if it could be inadvertently rotated to another position, the same can be said of a 90 degree selector. A safe and trained user should always be mindful of the condition of his weapons, relying on a piece of hardware to do his thinking and being diligent is dangerous.
In the end, in a world sans free lunch, one weighs the pros against the cons, our opinion is biased, but we think the 45 degree selector's advantages definitely have an edge of the potential shortcomings :)
In the end, in a world sans free lunch, one weighs the pros against the cons, our opinion is biased, but we think the 45 degree selector's advantages definitely have an edge of the potential shortcomings :)
Agreed. A realistic appraisal of your needs and enough training to accomplish your goals are always most important.
Again, it could just be my gun and a slick lube job but maybe you could make a special pin and/or spring that makes the safety just a *bit* more positively firm in function? Your super smooth movement definitely helps with your 90's but maybe a slightly harder "click* would make the 45 perfect for my needs :)
Dennis.
Future production 90 and 45 degrees will have slightly raised detent grooves to retain more spring pressure. Though it's a rare phenomenon, we still want to address it. Meanwhile, a little spacer (I cut off a piece of the ladder rail and stick it inside the pistol grip's spring hole) to stiffen it up :)
Future production 90 and 45 degrees will have slightly raised detent grooves to retain more spring pressure. Though it's a rare phenomenon, we still want to address it. Meanwhile, a little spacer (I cut off a piece of the ladder rail and stick it inside the pistol grip's spring hole) to stiffen it up :)
Good idea! I'll have to try it, although I always hate trying to unpack and repack all the spare parts I somehow stuff into my MIAD!
Dennis.
We also have about 1000 detent springs. We can send you couple of them to cut coils from, these springs get damaged or lost easily, I always keep couple of them around. Well now I have close to 1000 :jester:
http://i1014.photobucket.com/albums/af269/CoryCop25/Battle%20Arms%20Development/IMAG0176.jpg
http://i1014.photobucket.com/albums/af269/CoryCop25/Battle%20Arms%20Development/IMAG0177.jpg
The inclusion of a new spring won't address every spring related issue, a good detent is more important so it's included ;)
I'm sure you've read here and on TOS that folks have had problems with spring tension with their MIM selectors whose groove is shallower. The lower, pistol grip can play a part in this too. By raising the height of the groove, it won't fix every spring tension related problem either, but we're gradually reducing the external variables that can affect our selectors.
To date, we are still the only company that includes a detent with a selector, we can include a spring except we're not convinced it has as big an impact as a good detent does :p
Robb Jensen
06-13-11, 21:55
If you guys buy an AXTS forged or the upcoming fully ambidextrous billet receiver with a 45 degree selector together, the 45 degree selector is a lot less ;)
Yep I have one of those currently under my KAC upper and the 45 degree BADASS fit's right in w/o mods.
Just a thought on overcoming the indicator slot not matching up with the fire position, on standard receivers. How about dimpling a dot with a drill, on the receiver where it aligns with the lever slot, when it's in the fire position. Then add a dab of red paint and you should be good to go.
Just a thought on overcoming the indicator slot not matching up with the fire position, on standard receivers. How about dimpling a dot with a drill, on the receiver where it aligns with the lever slot, when it's in the fire position. Then add a dab of red paint and you should be good to go.
Because it is an ambi selector, the marks would be different on the lever on the right and the lever on the left. BAD would have to make specific levers for each side. That would make cost and manufacturing go way up.
Because it is an ambi selector, the marks would be different on the lever on the right and the lever on the left. BAD would have to make specific levers for each side. That would make cost and manufacturing go way up.
My thought was not that BAD would do it, but a homemade remedy that you yourself can do. Not marking the lever itself, but marking the receiver. It wouldn't matter where the levers line up, because you are custom making the reference marks, in the correct positions on the receiver, yourself. :D
See my pic posted above. That was an Idea I had when I first installed the 45 on my rifle. Honestly, most of us are smart enough to figure out the position of the safety without looking at the pictures. :jester:
Super Mall Ninja
06-14-11, 01:17
I'll probably get one of these since I like the 45 degree throw on the SCAR.
There were many suggestions as to how we can sell it without the stainless steel pin, many of which required direct action from the customers, for instance, putting a high strength metal template on the receiver, painting the 45 degree indicator if we made levers with more than one indicator groove, etc. All these could work, except we can't dictate what the customers must do once they receive it, for it is now their property, and free to do what they wish with it.
Between modifying the selector and the receiver, it's easier to change the selector, not to mention few folks are willing to permanently mod their receiver, and that we can't make them do it lol :p
I know of couple of a customer that made a receiver with the cut on the left side and proper Fire engraving on his receiver, and another that milled the cut on the receiver, for the 45 degree selector to work without modifying the selector itself. If you don't mind a fun weekend project, this can be fun. Me, I'd just buy a 45/90 degree compatible receiver :p
See my pic posted above. That was an Idea I had when I first installed the 45 on my rifle. Honestly, most of us are smart enough to figure out the position of the safety without looking at the pictures. :jester:
Exactly. I never look at any of my safeties, I just check them manually whenever I pick up the gun.
Dennis.
militarymoron
06-19-11, 23:52
Me, I'd just buy a 45/90 degree compatible receiver :p
agreed. they're a-comin'.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v483/militarymoron/adac1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v483/militarymoron/ax5562.jpg
Failure2Stop
06-20-11, 07:35
I received my 45 degree levers right after this thread opened. I knocked off the pin with a leatherman file in about 2 minutes while I BS'd with a friend on the phone. Dropped right into an LMT lower with good fit. I also used the included detent, figured that it came with the unit, why not?
I got mine with 2 short levers, as recommended by the manufacturer. Mine also came with a standard length lever as part of the "1 free lever" deal. I'm trying to figure out a use for that extra lever, because as it is I think that the 2 short levers setup is the best possible for ambidexterous use.
I normally use MIAD grips, with the slim backstrap, as it gives me the best compromise in hand position between thumb on safety and trigger access. With the 45 lever installed my thumb easily reaches the lever, but the firing side lever tends to hit the index finger knuckle of the firing hand as it is swept to fire. So I am going to have to switch backstraps to repositon my hand. At first I was contemplating going to two thin levers, but moving my hand a little rearward will both free my knuckle and put my trigger finger in a better position, so it's win-win.
More efficient throw, more comfortable hand position, better trigger finger placement; what's not to like?
BTW- I purchased the unit at full price, I have no affiliation with BAD, and have nothing to gain by recommending their product. I have less than 300 rounds through the gun with the 45 levers installed, but I don't think that high round-count is necessary for the feel of the item to be discussed if one already has extensive experience on the AR and other similar application platforms.
FTS, run the gun a bit and switch back to a standard lever. See how that feels. My opinion is that the standard lever becomes unnatural.
Must resist and just buy more ammo......
I've been running one of the pre-production prototypes since July or August of last year and it has been great. I've found the lever easy to maneuver to get the rifle to fire and I've found the right side lever's short throw keeps my trigger finger (right-handed shooter) from inadvertently getting in the way as it sometimes can on a traditional ambi selector.
As for flipping the lever from SAFE to SEMI, I don't really notice much of a difference between this and a standard selector. Best thing about the new 45-degree throw, in my mind, is the speed and ease at which the lever can be put back on SAFE. Just a slight flick of the thumb and it's back in the SAFE position with little or no change in firing grip, etc.
Good stuff, to be sure!
I like two short levers as a concept, as it's the same whether I'm shooting from the right shoulder or left. In practice, my preference is the standard lever on the thumb side. The short lever is fast, especially when used in conjunction with a short throw selector. But more force is required, where the opposite is true with a longer lever.
I've started to include a standard lever with the 45 degree selector when it's ordered without one. The short throw selector comes with only two levers, so the third levers y'all are getting can be considered SWAG :jester:
For us guys with big hands, the best thing about it is it can be put back on Safe without shifting the grips. For guys with smaller hands, and this applies to anyone (especially women and young shooters), the accessibility of the 45 degree selector for shooters with smaller hands is often overlooked (by guys like us with big hands :jester:)
Failure2stop, if you're considering getting another, please email me. We're working on a m4c mods discount code, you guys have been wonderful to us from day one :) In any case, I assume you're LE or MIL (active or retired) that should not pay full price for anything we produce.
Also, anyone running a prototype, please email me and I will send you a production model to replace the in-the-white selector center. You might want to keep the prototype as souvenir, we only made fewer than a dozen of those (unpinned 45 degree selector centers), hell I don't even have one :sad:
We like those in the hands of our testers and friends :D
There's only one that we only made a single unit of, that's the original UCAS (user configurable ambidextrous selector), we abandoned it and went to the route that MM had suggested in the beginning and heavily modified it.
As we still may resurrect it, or use parts of the UCAS, some portions of the picture have to be kept secret ;)
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i314/Duffypoo/serrations.jpg
LowSpeed_HighDrag
06-20-11, 22:52
All this Secret Squirrel talk has me very, very intrigued. :cool:
Hehe, the heat treated, manganese phosphate coated, unpinned selectors are pretty rare :ph34r:
http://i1014.photobucket.com/albums/af269/CoryCop25/Battle%20Arms%20Development/IMAG0176.jpg
http://i1014.photobucket.com/albums/af269/CoryCop25/Battle%20Arms%20Development/IMAG0177.jpg
This is exactly what needs to be done. Sell the device with a red and a white laquer stick to fill in the safe/fire engraving on the receiver. I'd buy several units then.
Let me get this straight. The only thing holding you back from buying this product is easily acquired paint sticks that can be had almost anywhere cheaply, but only a few people would actually use if included with every lever?
:confused:
cochraneap
06-21-11, 14:53
nice! been meaning to get one of those.
You can always email me for a free shipping coupon, then the saving will easily buy a dozen of these sticks ;)
I used an automotive touch up paint pen. Cost me $16 each color!
The ongoing debate at Battle Arms Dev. is what we should include with our selectors. We include the rather expensive KNS stainless steel detent, because it can have a real positive impact on the operation of the selector.
Trident thinks we should include a detent spring. We actually bought 1000 of the detent springs and have been giving them away as SWAG to repeat customers, or any customer (regardless where they bought the Battle Arms Dev. selector) that asks for it. The reason one isn't included is it does not address the ills of spring tension, which can affect any selector, the cause of which usually isn't the spring.
We joke that we should include the detent, pistol grip, detent spring, and a receiver to ensure 100% functionality of our selector :jester:
RE: paint pen, it isn't crucial or relevant to the operation of the selector. The inclusion of which, with the implied purpose of allowing the user to color different markings on a 45 degree selector for use on a non-45 degree selector compatible receiver, is akin to suggesting or encouraging the removal of the 45 degree selector's stainless steel pin block, as such measure would be unnecessary for a 45 degree compatible receiver. We can't go anywhere near there :sad:
To date, nobody except Battle Arms Dev. includes a detent with a selector. We include two T10 wrenches with the CASS-3P, M16 selector, and four screws with the Cerakoted selectors (two Cerakoted screws, two black oxide screws), and we include a third lever with our kit (a two lever kit can be purchased from our dealers). The price of our selector puts it at the top of the food chain, and being a premium product, it dictates that above and beyond service and support go with it. We only make premium product, so the same can be said of anything we produce ;)
By the way, we're Cerakoting 20 sets of selectors in bright pink for our female customers :)
By the way, we're Cerakoting 20 sets of selectors in bright pink for our female customers :)
I just started getting parts together for pink and white rifles for my daughters! Yet again, more items to buy from Duffy! :jester:
Failure2Stop
06-22-11, 05:21
FTS, run the gun a bit and switch back to a standard lever. See how that feels. My opinion is that the standard lever becomes unnatural.
I concur.
I have significant time behind HK rifles/subguns, AK varients, and FN rifles (with most on the SCAR).
Going back to AR varients always makes me ponder the selector.
I am very happy with the BAD 45 degree lever, especially after I swapped the backstrap on my MIAD for the medium one.
I don't have much time on any other platform other than the AR. I have fired an MP5SD, UMP, MP5 and I had an HK 91 clone. I have to say that there has to be something said for two different people with a lot of time on other platforms that use a ST type selector and someone who has almost no time on other platforms who have the same opinion that this is the better option for the AR.
I do not have access to an M-16 right now (soon) but I would love to be part of adapting the Short Throw concept to the full auto side of the lever.
I have heard the same reaction from someone that never shot an AR before, a young shooter in that instance. He was given an AR with a short throw selector first, then an AR with a 90 degree selector. The short throw felt natural, and more importantly, his relatively small hand could reach the selector whether it was on Safe or Fire. He did not like the 90 degree selector :D
loganp0916
01-11-12, 11:33
Duffy,
Is there anyone else that may start producing 45/90 degree lowers as of right now or anyone else you have been talking to? Just curious as I am not a huge fan of the full ambi lowers.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
01-11-12, 12:58
Logan, check out the Battle Arms section of this forum. There seem to be a few new lowers by different companies in the works.
Duffy,
Is there anyone else that may start producing 45/90 degree lowers as of right now or anyone else you have been talking to? Just curious as I am not a huge fan of the full ambi lowers.
AXTS offers the A-DAC-F lower receiver which is amazing bang for the buck. $150 for stripped lower puts it below many other companies (Noveske, etc) but you get drop in 45 degree functionality and you get to lock back the bolt while holding mag release if you want to (in my eyes an amazing feature).
Please see this thread https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=95034
The list will be updated as more manufacturers embrace the 45/90 compatible concept. Spikes and Legion Firearms should be bringing out theirs soon :)
loganp0916
01-12-12, 01:07
Thank you everybody
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