View Full Version : Geissele's new Super 2 Stage trigger (S2S).....
Hi guys, wanted to do a bit of a writeup detailing the new Super 2 Stage (S2S) trigger spec's, along with starting my documentation of my personal evaluation of the two units I received from GA. Small bit of disclosure....I in no manner work for Geissele, nor do I receive any kinda compensation for my opinion on the trigger's besides potentially a free trigger or two. Several years ago, I just happen to stumble onto the wonderful friendship I have developed w. the folks @ GA when I first met Bill through another site that I no longer visit. So my opinion is solely influenced by the actual trigger's performance, I'm discounting the fact that from all my experiences and the ones I read on the vast internet...GA's customer service and overall treatment of their customers is truly second to none.
Ok, now on with this new exciting trigger, for the following spec's and info, I have decided to quote the single best source on the trigger's and that is Bill G....
The S2S spec's according to Bill(GA).....
"Differences between the S2S and SSA:
No wire edm of shear sharp edges on S2S
Non tool steel construction
Different way of holding hammer pin in
No laser marking
No 100% Mag Particle testing (only spot check)
Feel is very good but not totally awesome like SSA
.......
No enhanced or S3G version will be available
No large pins for Colt will be available
It is essentially an SSA but geared for shooters who don’t have the scratch for an SSA. We have used our experience in taking cost out of the trigger while keeping reliability. I expect that it will be as reliable as the SSA.
Retail is $125. The first ones will be available through Bigbore (ADCO Firearms) in about 2 weeks."
__________________________________________________________________
Similarities b/t the S2S and the SSA:
" Both are;
2 stage combat triggers
great reliability through high round counts
same number of moving parts (same as the stock trigger)
non-adjustable for weight and sear engagement
same length of pull (total is about like stock trigger)
same pull weight (about 4.5lb total, about 2lb on the 2nd stage break)
same engineered in 'carrot like' break on the 2nd stage
secondary safety sear for assurance that hammer cannot drop unless trigger is pulled
easy drop in, no gunsmithing installation
complete with all springs and pins
strong, full power hammer spring for positive ignition of all ammo
fast locktime(~5.1ms vs 10ms stock)
same bow profile as M4 trigger
no riveted or staked parts that can come loose
no special tools are needed for installation"
So again, the above info was sourced directly from Bill/GA and really leaves little to be known about the actual spec's on this new unit and why it is significantly cheaper than the SSA which it is modeled after. Bottom line this is the premium trigger that just about every one can afford. It's the Working Man's SSA:)
My Personal evaluation and documentation:
I will be evaluating the S2S trigger from two different perspectives/disciplines:
A.) CQB/HD/PD- this will entail using this trigger in high volume shooting without much deliberate setup on the 2stage trigger, rather fast target acquisition and then "slapping" through the 2 stages. Speed, reset, and uber reliability will all be carefully watched and are the categories in which this particular trigger will be graded in at the end of the day in the CQB/hard use capacity.
B.) Light Precision- this will entail extremely deliberate setup's of the 2stages, I will be analyzing this trigger's ability to group @ 100yds and it's ability to engage true LR targets @ distances to include the range of 450-750yds.
So I decided to install these two trigger's in identical KAC SR-15 IWS lowers that are truly spec lowers, and at least for myself provide a great constant/proven commodity.
One IWS/S2S combo will be mated with my MRP CQB 10.5" CL w. aimpoint T-1 upper,....the second IWS/S2S will be mated with my MRP SPR 18" SS top that wears a nxs 2.5-10x32 optic.
Test Pilot's as described above w. S2S's already on board....
http://i52.tinypic.com/16217kl.jpg
http://i51.tinypic.com/b46v0k.jpg
INSTALLATION:
http://i53.tinypic.com/6epzjp.jpg
http://i54.tinypic.com/3518uqc.jpg
Directions from GA..straight forward and very easy to follow:
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/SCAN0010.jpg
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/SCAN0009.jpg
My Youtube video...S2S complete install procedure
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WP-jdkQHQyM
My Youtube video....up close clip of the S2S's trigger pull cycle
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOx6sQ2ndjw
My youtube video....Initial function test firing using trigger 1/CQB setup w. 180rds of full power 5.56
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbYghPQLZ0Q
So if interest is shown, I will continue to log every rd. through these two triggers and continue to update this thread with those numbers, as well as if any malf's occur related to the trigger. As I like to do in these threads, I will try and mix in various other clips illustrating these triggers as best as I can...for example, lots of deliberate setups while using one or both in a precision capacity.
All questions, comments, and especially any future feedback from future S2S owners is more than welcome, it's appreciated!
Nice write up. I just bought a SD-3G. I love it! I live like 40 minutes away from Geissele. I knew the S2S was coming but the price is cheaper than expected. My biggest concern is any hang ups when resetting the trigger. I have a cheaper 2 stage trigger on one of my rifles and the first stage sticks when letting the trigger forward. Geissele has been top notch for me since I have known about them.
Thanks Cory, you outta really schedule a tour given your location....I would absolutely love to see the GA shop, and see the process, esp. the machine that automatically pulls these trigger's 10's of K's. These S2S's or it's design has already gone through the machine that auto pulls them again like 10,000 times or something, maybe more.
These are the real deal holyfield, they are gonna be huge in due time.
For what it is worth, I live close as well (5 miles) and emailed them to see if they had jigs to try their triggers. They responded that they were not set up for visitors and suggested I head over to a local place with jigs (this place doesn't have them though)
So I'm not sure if a visit would work.
However I am very interested in your review. Thanks for posting!
Nice write up Trident....I'm definitely interested in any updates as you go. I have a spare lower in my drawer that could use a trigger, and I'm thinking one of these could well fit the bill; much as I really like my SD-C, now they've gone off the intro deal, the price on another one is a bit rich for my blood, especially considering as my next build will probably be some sort of KISS one.
Do you have any comment about how this feels vs the SD-C?
Dave in NC
06-11-11, 12:48
Hey TRIDENT! Haven't you got the word? Replacement triggers aren't needed! They are no substitute for skill. You just need to take a carbine class! :p
At least that's what I was told by a couple of forum members when I asked a question about them on this or another well known AR15 forum about a year and a half back... :rolleyes:
I KNOW the premise is well founded, but it has become the standard regurgitated answer for some people on forums boards without knowing all the circumstances/needs of the OP.
I have TAKEN and in fact TEACH carbine classes, but was just wanting to "tighten my groups" but still have a LIFE/DEATH reliable trigger...
I was leaning RRA NM, but bought a CMMG NM trigger because I found one at closeout pricing, and it didn't work in my rifle. I returned it and ordered a Geissele SSA and LOVE IT. Couldn't be more happy! :cool:
After installing it I requal-ed on my rifle (30 rds day and 30 rds night) and my groups were probably 30% better. I then used the rifle in a 3 day (850ish rounds) class, and have had it ever since with NO ISSUES.
LOVE Geissele! Worth every penny!
And just so everyone knows-
It's pronounced "guys-lee"! ;)
Not "Gisselle", "gisslee" etc.
Nice write up Trident....I'm definitely interested in any updates as you go. I have a spare lower in my drawer that could use a trigger, and I'm thinking one of these could well fit the bill; much as I really like my SD-C, now they've gone off the intro deal, the price on another one is a bit rich for my blood, especially considering as my next build will probably be some sort of KISS one.
Do you have any comment about how this feels vs the SD-C?
No doubt about it pal, I've never felt anything anywhere close to the SD-E in terms of just totally blowing you away with the actual feel and the obvious second to none construction and reliability.
So by extension, and even though I'm completely comfortably running a SD-E in a hard use CQB/HD type carbine, or even an all around GP rifle, the SD-C is just too perfect for that true "combat" or "go-to" role with it's slightly heavier pull and less crisp break. It retains the one thing that I still believe makes it leaps and bounds better than any trigger Ive felt in any gun...which is the flat trigger bow that has been moved forward. That dramatically effects every single little aspect of the trigger's pull.
One more quick thought that just SCREAMS when you install this new S2S....
Hot damn the SSA is so completely over built(not in the bad Elcan type of way) it's not even funny. Most already acknowledge it's the most reliable trigger made to date for the AR platform and it has several unique accreditation's to back that claim up, what folks will not understand until they use a S2S is just how amazingly robust and imho redundantly built the SSA is for any non true combat rifle...i.e. one that not only has to perform every shot, but has to deal with lack of maintenance issues from being constantly in the field, and overall operates in a much more harsh and dirty environment being that it's truly in combat day in and day out.
I just cannot see how this trigger will fail given how it compares to the SSA in so many ways...it's early but I instantly preferred this new trigger's pull to the SSA(ZERO movement is it's hallmark thus far which is awesome to see from this type of true blue non adjust trigger. Just to expound my views slightly more for clarity, Ive never been a huge SSA fan and would say in total honesty that it compares other than adjust vs. non adjust almost spot on to the KAC 2stage match trigger which is another exceptional hard use trigger w. the same pull weight, reset, and overall pull. This S2S has such a short little deliberate takeup(first stage)...then a HARD WALL(second stage) with absolutely zero creep or movement and breaks no doubt as clean as the SSA in my book. Just not in the territory of the SD-E or SD-C.
I love how these are blue finished...vs. all the previous GA trigger's that I know of being purple under the right light. The blue is really pretty neat....I'd be interested to learn about what treatment that is vs. the treatment on all the other models that is purple.
Thanks for all the info and research. I've been trying to decide on what to put into the new lower, this price point tips the scales in favor of the S2S. Works out to about 2x the cost of a stock LPK from anyone else but I think the added expense should be worth it. I suspect it will be available for a bit less from someone making a good deal even better.
SomeOtherGuy
06-11-11, 23:09
Interesting write up so far, thanks. The details from Bill on the complete differences vs. the SSA are very useful.
FYI, the hammer pin retaining clips look almost the same as what Armalite uses on their current "tactical two-stage" trigger, which ships in most of their ARs and is available as a component or in a LPK. I have two of those Armalites in use and they are pretty decent, but the total travel and reset are much longer than the Geissele SSA, which is also just a little lighter and crisper.
Nice to finally get this S2S trigger conversation going on here since it was announced pre SHOT show IIrc. Like quite a few others, I was really anticipating this trigger due to the fact that I honestly believe everyone deserves a damn G on the side of their trigger....and until this unit, you had to really pony up some change for one even though 99% of folks say it's the best damn coin they spent.
Just like on the last trigger I reviewed or wrote up on here...the SD-E, and then the SD-C, I'm completely willing to buy the first S2S trigger from someone who learns about it from this thread...aka, myself...and finds the trigger to be unsatisfactory or disappoints them. Just the first one, not that I plan on even that first one, but just to be clear.
Ask me how many people have pm'd me asking for me to buy that one SD-E or SD-C.....you got it, ZERO:) I even contacted the gent who posted the one single SD-E Ive ever seen in a second hand market to inquire if the trigger disappointed them and offered to buy it or trade for it if they were...long story short, I unfortunately didn't get to take home another SD-E.
The reason I employ Geissele trigger's is for results that standard gritty, heavy pulling G.I. type single stage triggers simply cannot achieve. So I figured smacking a 20" x 12" steel target @ 660yds using a MRP SPR(Test pilot/trigger #2) would be a great place to start displaying what the S2S brings to the table in terms of it's dynamic abilities entering into the LR/LP arena.
15/18 hits, and I must say the S2S performed spectacularly upon it's first test drive in a true LR/LP manner.
Sadly though, the bee's were crazy thick....so trigger #2/SPR has had a measly 18rds fired on it, but those 18 were quite exceptional:)
One last note...Bear in mind, I went straight from a $200 plus million dollar breaking SD-E in my precision guns to this S2S and instantly got generally the same huge benefits from running a high quality 2 stage trigger be it the SD-E or the S2S now...that's just huge imho.
My Youtube video....Long range/light precision evaluation of Geissele's new S2S trigger..hitting steel @ 660yds...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qr23GQjrPY
http://i55.tinypic.com/200y0p3.jpg
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/IMG_0450.jpg
Trident82,
Great write up. I use their SSA in my 16" Noveske Recon. What ammo and what is your elevation there.
Thanks,
Jack
Thanks Trident...I will be picking one up when they come available; will comment when I get it.
You're a freaking AUB! Instant discredit to everything you say. :p.
Trident82,
Great write up. I use their SSA in my 16" Noveske Recon. What ammo and what is your elevation there.
Thanks,
Jack
Thanks for the kind words Jack, the ammo I was using today was Remington Premier Accu tip 55gr. factory loaded and on my SPR I have the NXS w. the LV velocity ret. which is basically a BDC that operates in conjunction with a NF V ret. ballistic calc. that allows you to sight in which ever ammo your using to perfectly correspond w. the ret. hashes. For example on my LV ret. model, MK262 Mod 1 sights perfectly in @ the 200yd hash at actually 200yds(200yds is the rec'd sight in distance for the Velocity ret's)....whereas, the Remington Accutip 55gr. I shot this morning was sighted in @ the 200yd hash at actually 214yds. This whole process is flat out awesome up to 600yds and windage up to 10mph, after that you gotta get kinda creative which is why you will see in the target that is calc'd below that my critique would be in my elevation as opposed to my windage. Since this was 660yds, and my last ranging hash is 600yds on the LV ret., I had to use a tad bit of "Kentucky windage" to acct. for that extra yardage. The new NF velocity ret's come in the existing 600yd model like mine, but also a new 1000yd model. They come in LV, MV, and HV models as well...Low, Mid, and High Velocity.
I was pleasantly surprised to see this 55gr. ammo group @ about 2moa @ 660yds. This is obviously taking into acct. that I had minimal winds this morning b/t 5-7mph. If it would have been blowing another 10mph, I have a strong feeling that I would have had a much more difficult time landing them at that range.
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/1p987dss.jpg
SA80Dan....look forward to your feedback since you certainly know your triggers as well as previous GA trigger models:)
As for amac....must be the 2004 7-6 big win over LSU by Auburn which was one of my all time favorite ball games I attended while spending too many yrs. down in that cow town:D War Eagle pal!
Nah, I'm a transplant. Alabama by birth. Crimson Tide by the grace of God! :D. Graduated UofA in '94.
Nice shooting tho. You take really good pictures. Is that what you learned in cow town? :eek: Just messin. :D
Pappabear's Geissele triggers keep screwing me up when I go back to my GI triggers. I get spoilled on that sissy trigger and it messes with me on the regular trigger. :D
They will ruin you, even you are susceptible to the allure of the GA trigger pull:p
I certainly don't have a problem with someone who only uses a quality g.i. single stage like a colt, or lmt, and I obviously believe that they can get the job done effectively for most shooting scenarios involving these types of rifles. I just believe using them seriously handicaps my particular shooting abilities and applications in which I can successfully run on this rifles. Most folks who buy one GA trigger, ultimately run GA trigger's in every other gun of theirs or a similar high quality unit like the KAC 2 stage match.
Pappabear's Geissele triggers keep screwing me up when I go back to my GI triggers. I get spoilled on that sissy trigger and it messes with me on the regular trigger. :D
My "manly" caveman GI trigger screws me up when I go back to my other "high society" "fancy ass" custom pistols ;)
Midway USA still isn't carrying the S2S but they are listing it and a few other Geissele triggers.
They currently have Father's Day special running. These are the promo codes if interested.
161177 ($10 off $100 orders)
261177 ($20 off $200 orders)
361177 ($30 off $300 orders)
561177 ($50 off $500 orders)
I imagine they'll be doing something similiar for July 4th. Maybe they'll have the S2S in by then.
bnanaphone
06-14-11, 09:49
This is some great info Trident, thanks. I do have a question of comparrison for you or anybody else familiar with this or the SSA trigger.
How comparable is the S2S to the LMT 2-stage? or How comparable is the SSA to the LMT-2 stage?
Background info. I currently have an LMT MWS with factory 2-stage trigger and a REECE-type gun with a Geissele SD-E (thanks to your review of the SD triggers). That Geissele trigger ruined me and the LMT now feels less-than-great. I would say it definitely breaks like a soft carrot.
If they are similar, I will just put the LMT trigger in my REECE-type build and put the SD-E in my MWS. If they are vastly different, I will sell my LMT trigger and replace it with a Geissele. Really trying to get an idea for feel before dropping more coin.
Thanks for the help.
And just so everyone knows-
It's pronounced "guys-lee"! ;)
Not "Gisselle", "gisslee" etc.
Yep. I think they teach how to pronounce Geissele in some of them car-bean courses you mentioned.
Back on topic: It's interesting to see GA making a more mass produced, down-market sort of trigger. This new S2S competes more directly with the triggers found in some LPK's.
Is the GA S2S better than a RRA or LMT 2 stage? Does it turn to a mushy 1 stage after a thousand rounds? etc?
This is some great info Trident, thanks. I do have a question of comparrison for you or anybody else familiar with this or the SSA trigger.
How comparable is the S2S to the LMT 2-stage? or How comparable is the SSA to the LMT-2 stage? Only comparable in reliability and then the SSA still wins by the numbers, the LMT just doesn't feel great like a SSA and now this S2S
Background info. I currently have an LMT MWS with factory 2-stage trigger and a REECE-type gun with a Geissele SD-E (thanks to your review of the SD triggers). That Geissele trigger ruined me and the LMT now feels less-than-great. I would say it definitely breaks like a soft carrot.
If they are similar, I will just put the LMT trigger in my REECE-type build and put the SD-E in my MWS. If they are vastly different, I will sell my LMT trigger and replace it with a Geissele. Really trying to get an idea for feel before dropping more coin.
Thanks for the help.
My bad brother...sorry for the delay. I just today saw your awesome MWS w. the perfect trigger, the SD-E. That's an awesome setup and I hope to own one very similar sooner than later. Your absolutely right that the SD-E ruins you to all other triggers...perhaps even other GA triggers. It feels just that damn good and makes for the absolute perfect precision hard use trigger.
The only three trigger's I will ever feel confident running in my guns are as follows:
1. SD-E/C, SSA/E, S2S
2. KAC 2stage Match
3. LMT 2 stage combat trigger
They are ranked from first to last, however I personally would never buy a SSA in the future now that the S2S is avail. This is flat out a damn bargain for what the end user gets. I hope some of you guys take my word on this who are on the fence about getting their first real quality trigger and take the leap. My excitement for many months and huge anticipation for the release of these was absolutely merited given their performance @ their price point thus far in my personal use.
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC00624-1.jpg
The CQB/S2S #1 trigger has run flawless dumping mags into cqb targets and has been every bit as fast and predictable and SAFE as all my other GA trigger's in the past and specifically the several SSA's Ive own in the past.
The SPR/S2S #2 trigger is the trigger that won me over officially on this model....Ive exclusively shot this trigger on my SPR over the last three weeks or so while shooting LR at Steel targets from 600-800yds. Got lots of footage on my youtube channel if you care to see but let it be known that this S2S makes one helluva fantastic light precision or precision AR trigger. It's not gonna be a SD-E in this capacity, but it's every bit a SSA and that's what counts.
790rds fired b/t the two and over those rds fired I honestly could not feel any more positive and overall damn pleased with these trigger's than I currently am entertaining.
Thoroughly used S2S trigger pull numbers:
Trigger#1:
Pull 1: 4.68
Pull 2: 4.75
Pull 3: 4.54
Pull 4: 4.72
Pull 5: 4.60
Pull 6: 4.74
Pull 7: 4.70
Pull 8: 4.58
Pull 9: 4.48
Pull 10: 4.51
Avg. Pull: 4.63
Trigger #2
Pull 1: 4.46
Pull 2: 4.40
Pull 3: 4.48
Pull 4: 4.40
Pull 5: 4.56
Pull 6: 4.68
Pull 7: 4.42
Pull 8: 4.36
Pull 9: 4.41
Pull 10: 4.46
Avg. Pull: 4.46
They are ranked from first to last, however I personally would never buy a SSA in the future now that the S2S is avail.
Well, I have one winging its way to me now...hopefully I'll get it Saturday if not Monday :)
I can't help but wonder whether the S2S will kill the SSA for Geissele. However - I am sure that even if it does, the reduced price of the S2S will get more people off the fence, so they'll sell more....
bnanaphone
06-23-11, 15:12
Trident,
Thanks for your input. I actually just received an SD-3G for my lightweight gun and that sucker is FAST! Not sure what to do now, aside from sell my LMT in the EE, for my REECE-type. Maybe just another SD-E......just for consistency. The S2S does look fantastic but I am really liking the flat triggers now.
Thanks again for the help and your testing.
No problemo, my pleasure:)
I can see this trigger quite honestly killing just about every other trigger...even the SSA. Again, I can say for certain I won't be buying an SSA again as long as the S2S is avail. Hurry up SA80....looking forward to your feedback asap:) I think you will come to some instant conclusions the moment you install this trigger and pull it.
MODERATORS....got an opportunity for one of gents, GA was kind enough to send me a cpl. extra S2S units recently and since feedback is still so scarce on what I consider to be a helluva new trigger option for the AR family of rifles, I ask Bill what he thought about me sending a M4C moderator one to test drive in return for some feedback, and he thought it was a good idea.
So, first moderator that can seriously test drive one of these new S2S triggers and is willing to submit a bit of feedback for the community on it can just reply in this thread below, and then just send me a PM w. a shipping address for the trigger to be sent to.
I’ve been using my S2S for about 2 weeks and about 500 rounds now. Have to say – I think this trigger is awesome and represents excellent value for money. I also currently own an SD-C and have used an SSA – and by way of comparison, I can say that the most important functional part of the trigger, the second stage break – is pretty much a dead ringer for the break on both the SSA and SD-C. I know Geissele likes to refer to this break as “carrotlike”….which might be true if you are used to high falutin’ precision match triggers, but for anyone coming from stock triggers, it will feel extremely crisp.
I think Geissele’s description of where the S2S functionally differs from the SD-C and SSA is pretty much spot on. As far as I can tell, the trigger is probably a hair less refined through the first stage travel, and the reset. To say that is really splitting hairs though – in actual realistic usage neither issue is noticeable.
I found installing this trigger to be easy, but marginally less easy than the SSA/SD-C due to the hammer retaining ring being on the side of the hammer rather than in the center of it…..felt like I could have used a third hand for the final push of it to seat in the retaining ring. Again though, this is a real nitpicky point – it’s like this trigger took me 6 minutes to install instead of 5, and for the cost savings it brings – I’ll take one of these every time, given function is completely unaffected.
I did some pull weights with my craptastic el-cheapo Wheeler trigger gauge….while the gauge is not good enough to split hairs, I can see total pull weight for this trigger is as advertised at around 4.5lbs. As far as I can tell, it appears to be between 2.5-3lbs on the first stage then 1.5-2lbs for the second stage break.
I see people often wonder what you get with these 2 stage triggers over a stock, and even whether a 2 stage trigger is suitable for use in a regular carbine. Totally personal preference, but my thoughts on that are that you get the best of both worlds with a 2 stage - but where they really shine is for the longer range precise shots; IMO it really does help that you can set up the shot by taking up the first stage and then having sharper and more defined 2nd stage break. Have to say I don’t notice much improvement over a stock trigger for short range high volume shooting – but conversely, I also don’t notice any disadvantage either – I have no trouble riding the reset and getting quick follow up shots off. I’d say if you are used to a Glock or similar for your pistol, a 2 stage is probably even a good move for commonality of operation. I will say unlike some folks I actually don’t mind a good stock AR trigger, and I have one in particular that is about as good as they get - repeatedly smooth with minimal creep and a 6.5lb break – but even with that good one I always notice when I go back to it after my Geissele triggers it seems quite crude by comparison – especially when you are shooting out over 200 yards.
On last thing, just want to give some props to Trident82 here – I have found the descriptions of how these triggers feel to be spot on - quite a hard thing to describe, so thanks for the comprehensive reviews!
For $125, I feel this trigger represents excellent value. If the $170 pricetag of the SSA has been the factor putting some people off thus far, I think now could be the time to jump off the fence and give one a go. I will throw up some reliability reports as I get more rounds on it, but going on Geissele’s past form I very much doubt there will be any issues at all in that regard.
Most excellent review Dan, I appreciate your feedback....I wouldn't have stood on the fence nearly as long as I did about upgrading my crappy colt gi triggers if this option would have been avail. several yrs. back. Again, great review brother:)
eta...I thought about buying one of those cheapo wheeler gauges but I got a modified digi fishing scale that seems to be pretty darn accurate. Nice to hear your feedback on that wheeler gauge as I seriously have almost bought it on a number of occasions. I want a good quality digi one made specifically for this task....then I analyze effects of grease, as well as how fouling or shooting effects the trigger pull's weight.
Failure2Stop
07-08-11, 12:19
Trident, if the offer is still open for a test-drive/review send me a PM.
F2S will be the test driver of a new S2S...look forward to hearing your thoughts and feedback and whenever you have a moment just PM me your shipping address and I will have it out to you asap:)
Suwannee Tim
07-09-11, 16:10
My "manly" caveman GI trigger screws me up when I go back to my other "high society" "fancy ass" custom pistols ;)
If you want a "manly" trigger try an FN SCAR. They are atrocious but give your manhood a dual test by randomly switching feel from atrocious single stage to atrocious two stage. I was thrilled to see GA produce a trigger for them but I can't justify $400 X 2. Talk to Bill and see if he has any interest in making an S2S for the SCAR.
Failure2Stop
07-21-11, 12:59
This is a very brief write up of my initial impression of the S2S trigger.
I finally found the time to drop the trigger into an LMT lower and compare it to two other 2-stage triggers; the LMT 2-stage, and the Geissele SD3G.
The LMT and the S2S are more apples to apples, but since I have a grand or so with the SD I figured I'd throw it in for comparison.
The S2S is head and shoulders above the LMT. It has a slicker first stage, a firm stop at the second stage, and a clean break with no grittiness or creep. The reset is not quite as positive as a stock trigger or the SD3G, but it is much faster than the LMT. The trigger does not feel "slow" but it is obvious that it is intended for precision first.
So far I like it, but I still need to put at least a few hundred rounds through it before it will find a permanent home on one of my rifles, and at least 1k before I can recommend it.
This is some great info Trident, thanks. I do have a question of comparrison for you or anybody else familiar with this or the SSA trigger.
How comparable is the S2S to the LMT 2-stage? or How comparable is the SSA to the LMT-2 stage?
Background info. I currently have an LMT MWS with factory 2-stage trigger and a REECE-type gun with a Geissele SD-E (thanks to your review of the SD triggers). That Geissele trigger ruined me and the LMT now feels less-than-great. I would say it definitely breaks like a soft carrot.
If they are similar, I will just put the LMT trigger in my REECE-type build and put the SD-E in my MWS. If they are vastly different, I will sell my LMT trigger and replace it with a Geissele. Really trying to get an idea for feel before dropping more coin.
Thanks for the help.
R-E-C-C-E, not REECE...
A two stage trigger compared to a single stage for an AR isn't a trade-off of speed for precision but speed for safety
bnanaphone
07-22-11, 13:02
R-E-C-C-E, not REECE...
I know, I fu@k it up all the time. Can I just call it my sniper M4?
Failure2Stop
07-22-11, 13:02
A two stage trigger compared to a single stage for an AR isn't a trade-off of speed for precision but speed for safety
I'm not tracking.
Could you explain your statement?
Very well said Mist....f2s, my view is that a 2stage trigger leads to much greater control vs. a single stage. This isn't in regards to the actual reliability but rather how one lends itself to a more deliberate and "safe" setup vs. no setup at all on a single stage trigger.
Thanks for that excellent feedback...keep it coming brother:)
I love these triggers!
eta..bnana, don't sweat it brother...Ive misspelled more on here in a day, than most have will in a yr. I usually just call Recce rifles bad ass motherf**kers:)
I know, I fu@k it up all the time. Can I just call it my sniper M4?
lol, yeah, whatever gets it done. but remember the word is short for reconnoiter or reconnaissance or recon, etc...
that makes it easier to remember how to spell...:D
The two stage trigger was developed to reduce unintentional discharges from the rough handling infantry rifles receive on the battlefield. When a rifle is jarred, it can cause the sear to bounce, releasing the hammer or striker as the distance needed to release the sear is very short.
A two stage trigger prevents the sear from being released if it bounces when the rifle is jarred. Other trigger features to prevent sear release when the rifle is jarred is a heavy trigger pull and a long sear engagement. Many military triggers use the two stage trigger design, heavy pull and a long sear engagement. FALs, for example, are notorious for heavy, two stage triggers with lots of creep, breaking around 8-12 lbs.
Another way the two stage provides safety is that the initial stage gives a tactile warning that the trigger is being pressed. It is to give a shooter under stress time to back off the trigger if it's being inadvertently pressed. (This is NOT a substitute for keeping the trigger finger outside the guard.)
Other than National Match Service Rifle, two stage triggers are rarely encountered in competition as most feel the single stage disturbs the rifle less than a two stage. I do not believe this is always the case.
A clean predictable break is far more important to precise shooting than the number of stages the trigger has. A two stage, especially one with a long reset like the Geiselle has, trades speed for an increased margin of safety. Whether or not that increased margin is needed, only the shooter can decide
About "good triggers". A good trigger is one that is reliable and predictable. Reliability means it fires every time and predictable means it performs and feels the same way every time it's pressed. Smooth is what makes a good trigger (reliable & predictable) better. A good trigger is still a good trigger and doesn't always need to be replaced with a better one.
A trigger that's reliable but with an unpredictable pull is merely acceptable. An unreliable trigger is a poor one and should be replaced.
A better trigger will not make one a better shooter, nor is it a crutch. It's just better and makes it easier for novice and expert alike to shoot their rifle well. Easier enough to justify upgrading a good trigger? That call is up to the individual and the only way to know is to shoot
Underwhere
07-22-11, 18:54
I picked up 3 of these S2S's today from the post office.
Just finished dropping 2 of them in some of my completed rifles.
Installation:
Easy. It's a normal trigger install with the addition of the retaining clip. The clip itself goes on in less than half a second (push it on) and the only tricky part is getting the pins through the receiver but that is really not any different than a normal trigger.
The uninstall of the old and the install of the S2S took me about 5 minutes per rifle.
The trigger experience:
Geissele may need to work a bit on their QA because my two triggers feel different. One of them does have a bit of grit and creep right before the break. The other trigger seems clean and perfect.
My brother who is much more sensitive to this stuff is on his way over and I'll have him feel the difference and give his opinion as well. Probably won't put the trigger in his rifle tonight. I hope that his trigger doesn't feel different than the first two.
It is an improvement over the stock GI trigger however. (Though I do have a very nice GI trigger I happened to get in a factory Stag LPK).
I am looking forward to having half the lock up time of the GI trigger.
My qualifications:
Firearms instructor, action pistol competitor, garage warrior gunsmith.
I don't claim to be a trigger guru. I do my own trigger work and I don't make a big deal about it. I don't nitpick unless something is obvious and I don't use triggers as an excuse for poor shooting.
I currently have the Geissele SD-E in my 308 and it is very nice. I like it a lot. In comparison the SD-E is clearly a more refined trigger.
Fit and Finish:
Not as nice as my SD-E but I was expected that. Comes as advertised and I can ask for no more. After removing them from the bags I considered for a brief second that maybe I should have just forked over the money and gone SSA but I want to give them a chance first. As long as they function as advertised then the way they look really doesn't matter to me.
Shooting:
Unfortunately I'm away for the next 2 weeks and won't get to shoot with them.
http://i51.tinypic.com/20j5wcy.jpg
Did you grease your triggers prior to installation? Without it, Geisselle triggers feel gritty
A two stage trigger compared to a single stage for an AR isn't a trade-off of speed for precision but speed for safety
With the safety features built into the AR Gold or the Wilson TTU, it's hard to say if a two stage is safer than those single stages. But those SS's run over $250 per if I'm not mistaken.
Stock single stages are just long, gritty, heavy pulls with a lot of sear contact, so their not terribly prone to dropping a hammer unless the triger is pulled, either from poor discipline or snagging on something. And I don't think a two stage Geissle or any other two stage is immune from discharging when snagged hard enough, at least not from what I've seen.
When you get into the realm of better (or even average) two stages (Geissele, X-treme, RRAs/tuned RRAs, Armalite NM), you are paying for precison, at least in my mind. Not sure where a LMT stacks up in this mix.
underwhere....thank you very much for your contribution to this thread:)
You very well may now be the world's foremost expert on them as the proud owner of three. The one in my MRP CQB is really something else, it just replaced the last KAC 2stager I ran that was I felt honestly perfect and I'm on record as saying a number of times that it was like the perfect SSA since it was factory adjusted and set and already feels so much like the SSA's pull to begin with...basically just slightly refining the SSA's pull. It's got the absolute most perfect wall and break for anybody to love but it's esp. forgiving for anyone who is timid and scared this might be some kinda hair trigger.
Also, this isn't the trigger that you just put in your lowest horse in the stable, or only made for first timers or anything like that...I tried to illustrate that w. 600-800yd steel shooting;) This trigger is not one that you will "grow" out of and soon find yourselves wanting the more expensive models.
I'm a connoisseur for anything that has a G on the side of the trigger...and I truly now believe them all to be equal in terms of just overwhelming attn. to detail, reliability, safety, and just awesome feeling pulls.
Underwhere
07-22-11, 19:50
Did you grease your triggers prior to installation? Without it, Geisselle triggers feel gritty
Yep. Greased.
But like I said I'm not as sensitive as my brother is to this stuff. He just pulled in the driveway. The gritty one is only very slightly gritty. It's actually has a tiny bit of creep that the other one doesn't have.
If after installing the 3rd one, this one with slight creep/grit still stands out then I might consider calling Geissele to see what they say.
It's interesting to receive multiple triggers to compare them side by side...really a test of their consistency.
Underwhere
07-22-11, 19:52
underwhere....thank you very much for your contribution to this thread:)
You very well may now be the world's foremost expert on them as the proud owner of three.
Also, this isn't the trigger that you just put in your lowest horse in the stable, or only made for first timers or anything like that...I tried to illustrate that w. 600-800yd steel shooting;) This trigger is not one that you will "grow" out of and soon find yourselves wanting the more expensive models.
Well simply because I have 3 (one is my brother's) doesn't mean I'm an expert...You can have all the toys in the world and shoot like crap. I have seen it many times.
Underwhere
07-22-11, 20:10
My brother arrived and picked up the good one (I didn't tell him which).
Then picked up the creep/grit one and instantly said "These two don't feel the same. The first one is much better"
So it looks like I'll test out the 3rd one and see how that goes.
Neither of them are by any means "bad". But they are different.
With the safety features built into the AR Gold or the Wilson TTU, it's hard to say if a two stage is safer than those single stages. But those SS's run over $250 per if I'm not mistaken.
Stock single stages are just long, gritty, heavy pulls with a lot of sear contact, so their not terribly prone to dropping a hammer unless the triger is pulled, either from poor discipline or snagging on something. And I don't think a two stage Geissle or any other two stage is immune from discharging when snagged hard enough, at least not from what I've seen.
When you get into the realm of better (or even average) two stages (Geissele, X-treme, RRAs/tuned RRAs, Armalite NM), you are paying for precison, at least in my mind. Not sure where a LMT stacks up in this mix.
The trouble with triggers is that, all else being equal, the crisper and lighter the pull, the less reliable they become. Semi-auto triggers are the worst offenders because they are more complicated. It wouldn't surprise me to find out Geisselle uses a two stage design to increase the safety margin enough so the triggers can be set with a crisper, lighter break safely. The short reset (speed) is traded for a greater safety margin (added stage) to allow for an improved pull without a loss of reliability.
The added safety margin comes from being able to use a sear with less mass which in turn reduces chance of bounce when the weapon is jarred. In the M14/M1 Garand, there is a physical block that keeps the sear from releasing the hammer unless the trigger is pulled through the first stage
Underwhere
07-22-11, 20:35
I couldnt wait. Installed in the third rifle. (3 min)
There was a bit of creep. Both my brother and i were dry firing and after 15 or so hits the creep suddenly disappeared.
Very strange but maybe we just cleared some manufacturing burrs or something. When i get home tomorrow im going to try dry firing the problem one some more.
That's normal. I forgot to add that according to Geisselle, the triggers will smooth out with use. My SSA-E started out great and got better with use
Underwhere
07-22-11, 21:11
That's normal. I forgot to add that according to Geisselle, the triggers will smooth out with use. My SSA-E started out great and got better with use
Yea maybe. My sd-e didnt need it and neither did s2s number 1 though
I just cut a youtube video w. the install, first pulls, and complete cycling of a third completely brand new S2S that I installed.
Every single one has been perfect and on two of them the proof is in video's...this third one pulls flat out awesome literally the first time I pulled it.
So 3/3 on my end that are perfect triggers in every single respect.
GA could not deliver anything more than what this S2S does for $125....It's a no brainier imho and this trigger has now earned my complete support. Geissele is a winner that I'll back for life!
Third Geissele S2S trigger install and function check.... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLDUCzQsUeU)
First 10 complete pull weights:
1. 4.48
2. 4.36
3. 4.38
4. 4.22
5. 4.24
6. 4.27
7. 4.38
8. 4.41
9. 4.22
10. 4.39
Total avg. pull through 10:
4.335 lbs.
video of just the cycling...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ur8JbekH3_I
eta..Bad video...processing...
The trouble with triggers is that, all else being equal, the crisper and lighter the pull, the less reliable they become. Semi-auto triggers are the worst offenders because they are more complicated. It wouldn't surprise me to find out Geisselle uses a two stage design to increase the safety margin enough so the triggers can be set with a crisper, lighter break safely. The short reset (speed) is traded for a greater safety margin (added stage) to allow for an improved pull without a loss of reliability.
The added safety margin comes from being able to use a sear with less mass which in turn reduces chance of bounce when the weapon is jarred. In the M14/M1 Garand, there is a physical block that keeps the sear from releasing the hammer unless the trigger is pulled through the first stage
It wouldn't surprise me that Geissele decided to adapt variants of his Service Rifle and Match Rifle triggers for DMR, non-adjustable duty triggers etc.
When he first came on the scene his customer base was NRA and CMP HP shooters and they used all two stage triggers. So that's what he designed. The .mil shooters who competed got hooked, variants made their way into the .mil precision rigs, and then LEO and other tactical shooters joined in and the added variants emerged. I'm not suggesting his triggers aren't safe, I'm just suggesting the decision to design two stage triggers was for competition shooters because that's was his early market.
Now he's barnching oput into single stage triggers if I'm not mistaken. I thought his 3-gun trigger was a SS, but I could be wrong.
Exiledviking
07-22-11, 23:52
I just got my S2S this past Monday and got a chance to shoot with it yesterday.
Color me impressed!
I have the SD-E in my 18" Noveske and the S2S went into my BCM 14.5".
I am buying another S2S for my current build. My buddy who was shooting with me tried it out and he's now going to ditch his RRA 2-stage in favor of the S2S.
I just got my S2S this past Monday and got a chance to shoot with it yesterday.
Color me impressed!
I have the SD-E in my 18" Noveske and the S2S went into my BCM 14.5".
I am buying another S2S for my current build. My buddy who was shooting with me tried it out and he's now going to ditch his RRA 2-stage in favor of the S2S.
Hell yes, I'm not crazy after all:)...this piece of excellent feedback is especially important imho to take note of..
2 people that have true blue precision SPR's running imho the very finest hard use precision trigger made(SD-E) with a break and overall pull that is truly world class are still able to take the $125 S2S and drop it in a rifle and be impressed.
Great info and that was really informative feedback for myself and my opinion of these for the reason noted above. Thanks for weighing in pal:)
Underwhere
07-23-11, 01:00
I just cut a youtube video w. the install, first pulls, and complete cycling of a third completely brand new S2S that I installed.
Every single one has been perfect and on two of them the proof is in video's...
So 3/3 on my end that are perfect triggers in every single respect.
I'm away from home now so I can't do any more testing with the triggers. I'll probably uninstall, inspect and reinstall the creep/gritty trigger to see what's up. Then dry fire it a bunch to see if it clears.
I was very surprised to find that the creep on the 3rd S2S disappeared after 15-20 dry fires. I'm happy yet concerned at the same time.
As far as your videos go, I'm not sure that is proof of anything other than function. No video is going to show you creep nor gritty sensation which is what I am experiencing. (I stress that is is very minor but noticeable when comparing to my other S2S's)
I too am a fan of Geissele and I think that if I didn't have 2 other triggers to compare against, I probably wouldn't think anything of the one that is suspect.
It wouldn't surprise me that Geissele decided to adapt variants of his Service Rifle and Match Rifle triggers for DMR, non-adjustable duty triggers etc.
When he first came on the scene his customer base was NRA and CMP HP shooters and they used all two stage triggers. So that's what he designed. The .mil shooters who competed got hooked, variants made their way into the .mil precision rigs, and then LEO and other tactical shooters joined in and the added variants emerged. I'm not suggesting his triggers aren't safe, I'm just suggesting the decision to design two stage triggers was for competition shooters because that's was his early market.
Now he's barnching oput into single stage triggers if I'm not mistaken. I thought his 3-gun trigger was a SS, but I could be wrong.
The standard AR trigger is a single stage and M16 Service Rifles are not required to use two stage triggers
The standard AR trigger is a single stage and M16 Service Rifles are not required to use two stage triggers
OK.........
If you think about it, that means Geisselle didn't have to design their trigger as a two stage for Service Rifle competition. Still, my guesses are nothing but guesses
As are mine, but when Geissele came on the scene, most competitors were using either a lower end RR/BM/Armalite trigger, or an unobtanium Krieger-Millazo. All were two stage. Geissele saw a void and thought he could fill it with a premium trigger that was available to mere mortals. Once he decided on the two stage design, he then designed in his safety features, but I'm not sure he picked the two stage because of safety. I'm guessing it was more a thought process of, "everyone's shooting two stages, I'm gonna build a better two stage. Now, how can I make it the best two stage possible?"
You may be right. Back in the day though, single stage triggers were considered better than two stage for precision & competition. That's why at first it confused me to hear folks on this site talk about single stage triggers being for combat and two stage triggers for precision.
Regardless, the Geisselle SSA-E in my precision AR works very well, and by all accounts, so do his other AR triggers. All he has to do now is design one with a short reset like that found on the M14/Garand trigger. That would be as close to AR trigger perfection as could be
Do you have any hands on with any of the current single stage designs to compare against? The AR Gold or the Wilson TTU?
It's interesting, the Giessele website and the AR Gold website have trigger traces where you get a good sense of the characterisitics of the trigger pulls. When comparing a Geissele S3G (a kind of quasi single stage/two stage hybrid according to their explanation), you can see it's a very short, but steep, take up followed by a long straight-line pull with no additional added weight before it trips the sear.
The AR Gold is kind of the opposite -- a short, very low weight and longish first stage, followed by a short, quick take up right at the end and then the sear trips. Both triggers trip at about the same pull weight, but the characteristics are different on how you get there.
I'm not accomplished enough or refined enough to know which I might prefer. When you get into the triggers, you're talking $200 and up, and so far I haven't felt the need to drop that kind of coin, one because it is kind of an expense, and two, because I might get hooked and feel the need to swap out my other two rifles triggers.
The following is based on my experience as a shooter as I have none in gunfighting.
All ARs I have shot have had the standard trigger with the exception of the SSA-E on my current precision rifle. I have dry fired different demo triggers but mostly focused on the Geisselle models, the SSA, the adjustable verison (don't recall the model off the top of my head) the 3 gun and the SSA-E. I have not tried any with the straight trigger bow. What sold me on the SSA-E is that it already had the pull I would have tuned an adjustable trigger to.
It's easy to get caught up in trigger mania. I have tuned several to be as light & crisp as possible on bolt action rifles and they are a delight to shoot with. A trigger so tuned will fire with just a thought. But a very light trigger requires more care from the shooter and isn't a good choice for a novice to learn on.
Some feel the standard AR trigger is fine. I find they have a heavy pull with too much creep. The problem lies with the fact they are also gritty. If they could be smoothed up without worrying about cutting through the case hardening, they would make a good starter trigger. Some triggers will smooth out with shooting, but the standard trigger in my Colt never really did even after a couple thousand rounds and hours of dry firing. That's why I sprang for the Geisselle for my precision rifle.
I cannot tell you if a single stage or two stage trigger is better for your purposes. I believe it's Rob_S that found due to the nature of the two stage pull, the Geisselle handicaps his shooting. What I can tell you is that you basically have two choices-
1) Go cheap by buying a good solid trigger and sticking with it. Learn to shoot that trigger and cry once by buying once. While it may take longer to find the optimal trigger, a deeper understanding of what's needed and wanted will be had when it finally comes time for a replacement.
2) Shoot as many triggers as you can until you find the right trigger for you. This option will require an investiture of time and money. It also has the danger that somewhere along the line, searching can become more important than finding. When this happens, it's too easy to forget that at some point, one must stop chasing equipment and simply focus on shooting
RetreatHell
07-23-11, 11:45
.... All he has to do now is design one with a short reset like that found on the M14/Garand trigger. That would be as close to AR trigger perfection as could be
THIS PLEASE!!!!!!
I wish SO much that they would create a single stage trigger with the short and very quick reset of the S3G, but a slightly longer initial pull like the SSA. If this is possible, please make it! As MistWolf said above, this would be AR trigger perfection IMHO.
I love the SSA but when shooting with a purpose up close, I always wind up short stroking it because of the slightly longer reset.
Just my two cents... Which admittedly ain't much;)
retreatHell,
Spend some time on the www.americantrigger.com website, study the traces, and tell me if this is what you're trying to describe. The characteristics you mention sound just like this trigger, although the AR Gold has a 3lb pull weight which may be a bit lighter than what you desire.
Another video of the third unit I just installed.....it's been slowed down at one point to analyze the creep...it's got zero, what a pull is all I can say:)
S2S's trigger pull up close and slowed down... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45m1E6M69Ks&feature=youtube_gdata)
Underwhere
07-24-11, 01:46
Another video of the third unit I just installed.....it's been slowed down at one point to analyze the creep...it's got zero, what a pull is all I can say:)
S2S's trigger pull up close and slowed down... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45m1E6M69Ks&feature=youtube_gdata)
I'm pretty sure if you videotaped all 3 of my triggers you would say they are all the same, yet if you fired all three of them you would say they are all different.
I hear ya...I'm not or never was calling you out, however after installing 3 of these now and honestly having them be creep free and overall awesome feeling, I believe firmly in this design and the finished product. I might try and test one or two more if feedback is slow going in the next cpl. weeks.
I hate that you are disappointed by one or more of your units and I would truly like to see you have your issues with them resolved. If I can help in the least you can either post it publicly, or send me a PM/Email..whatever is fine and I'm more than happy to help out anyway I can including working a deal out to take the trigger off your hands that disappointed you.
eta..just for the record, Ive seen a few video's of 2 stage triggers creeping on the break...it's clearly evident but no worries on that stuff.
Underwhere
07-24-11, 12:31
I hear ya...I'm not or never was calling you out, however after installing 3 of these now and honestly having them be creep free and overall awesome feeling, I believe firmly in this design and the finished product. I might try and test one or two more if feedback is slow going in the next cpl. weeks.
I hate that you are disappointed by one or more of your units and I would truly like to see you have your issues with them resolved. If I can help in the least you can either post it publicly, or send me a PM/Email..whatever is fine and I'm more than happy to help out anyway I can including working a deal out to take the trigger off your hands that disappointed you.
eta..just for the record, Ive seen a few video's of 2 stage triggers creeping on the break...it's clearly evident but no worries on that stuff.
I'm confused. Do you work for them?
I uninstalled, inspected, lubed and reinstalled. Still the same. I'm going to dry fire some more to see if it alleviates it.
And yes I tried videotaping and I think I can maybe pick up the slightest bit of creep on it.
Not a huge issue. If anything I'll contact Geissele and see what they say.
Here's a video showing my normal trigger first and then the one with creep second. I tried to go as light as possible on the trigger to display the creep. Ignore my trigger finger position. Was trying to get as much of the trigger as possible displayed in the video.
*edit video broken. New video posted in subsequent post*
I'm confused. Do you work for them?
I uninstalled, inspected, lubed and reinstalled. Still the same. I'm going to dry fire some more to see if it alleviates it.
And yes I tried videotaping and I think I can maybe pick up the slightest bit of creep on it.
Not a huge issue. If anything I'll contact Geissele and see what they say.
Here's a video showing my normal trigger first and then the one with creep second. I tried to go as light as possible on the trigger to display the creep. Ignore my trigger finger position. Was trying to get as much of the trigger as possible displayed in the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4L1LmXpgEAo
I'm not Trident but I can tell you that I have met the guys from Geissele and they stand behind their product 110%. Give them a call and I am sure they will make good on it. I live about 30 minutes from them and they offered me a tour and I am going to take them up on it in the winter. They are really down to earth guys!
I'm confused. Do you work for them?
I uninstalled, inspected, lubed and reinstalled. Still the same. I'm going to dry fire some more to see if it alleviates it.
And yes I tried videotaping and I think I can maybe pick up the slightest bit of creep on it.
Not a huge issue. If anything I'll contact Geissele and see what they say.
Here's a video showing my normal trigger first and then the one with creep second. I tried to go as light as possible on the trigger to display the creep. Ignore my trigger finger position. Was trying to get as much of the trigger as possible displayed in the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4L1LmXpgEAo
Tried the link and "sorry not available".
Mark
I obviously don't work for them nor do I receive anything from them for my opinion and review of their triggers besides a free trigger or two...as stated at the very beginning of this thread.
I just actually care and you have to understand that GA's email or phone has been on I'm sure this whole time, however you have chosen to use this thread to try and figure out your issues w. that one trigger...thereby I tried to offer my help.
Hope you get squared away.
Underwhere
07-24-11, 16:21
I obviously don't work for them nor do I receive anything from them for my opinion and review of their triggers besides a free trigger or two...as stated at the very beginning of this thread.
I just actually care and you have to understand that GA's email or phone has been on I'm sure this whole time, however you have chosen to use this thread to try and figure out your issues w. that one trigger...thereby I tried to offer my help.
Hope you get squared away.
I received and installed these triggers on a Friday afternoon after business hours. I don't want to burden GA with over-the-weekend stuff for a shooter that will take more than 2 weeks to find the time to shoot his rifle.
I posted in this thread because it was somewhat of a trigger review and I wanted to offer my experiences on the 3 units I received.
I'm going to follow up with GA tomorrow and see what they say.
I'm fixing the video now.
Underwhere
07-24-11, 16:30
Here is the video. Should be working now.
Excuse the poor quality and movement. I was pulling the trigger and holding the camera at the same time.
First rifle is the S2S which is great. The second rifle which I fire twice shows that once the first stage has been taken up there is a noticeable movement before the break. The last attempt is probably the clearest example of the creep I'm experiencing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M33XF4ZkIL4
I thought you said you couldn't even detect creep in a video....;)
I agree your second trigger clearly has an unacceptable amt. of creep and no doubt about it, GA will take care of that.
Underwhere
07-24-11, 19:16
I thought you said you couldn't even detect creep in a video....;)
Yup you were right about that
Failure2Stop
07-24-11, 20:21
The two stage trigger was developed to reduce unintentional discharges from the rough handling infantry rifles receive on the battlefield. When a rifle is jarred, it can cause the sear to bounce, releasing the hammer or striker as the distance needed to release the sear is very short.
A two stage trigger prevents the sear from being released if it bounces when the rifle is jarred. Other trigger features to prevent sear release when the rifle is jarred is a heavy trigger pull and a long sear engagement. Many military triggers use the two stage trigger design, heavy pull and a long sear engagement. FALs, for example, are notorious for heavy, two stage triggers with lots of creep, breaking around 8-12 lbs.
While this may be valid for other systems, the single stage trigger is the standard for the AR family. 2-stage triggers applicable are designed for precision applications, or another specialized use.
If you are saying that 2-stage triggers are a method to achieve a lighter/smoother trigger safely, I agree.
While this may be valid for other systems, the single stage trigger is the standard for the AR family...
Yes, this I knew. After dealing with other military rifles, I was surprised to find the AR had a single stage trigger.
If you are saying that 2-stage triggers are a method to achieve a lighter/smoother trigger safely, I agree.
Yes. I believe this is why Geiselle used a two stage design with a long reset
Underwhere
07-25-11, 17:33
I spoke to a tech Geissele today. Nice guy and was explaining how the S2S might have a tiny bit of creep in some cases...that it's more of a mass produced trigger and that may be what you get. He offered for me to send the trigger back to them and they will inspect it to see if it out of spec.
He also suggested trying the trigger in a different lower because perhaps the lower is out of spec. I'm having my brother do that as I'm away on business.
Update to follow.
I'm torn...
On one hand I have used 3 S2S's that were nothing short of perfect.
On the other hand I saw your documented case of creep and then hearing you say that GA said a certain amt. of creep is acceptable in some cases is just flat out discouraging to say the least.
I just struggle with the fact that Geissele will knowingly have triggers leave that are less than perfect or could potentially have issues w. creep.
I back these triggers because they NEVER have problems....and literally every one Ive ever owned or tried has been flawless and worth every penny.
Flat out, any creep is unacceptable in my book.
Underwhere
07-25-11, 18:57
I'm torn...
On one hand I have used 3 S2S's that were nothing short of perfect.
On the other hand I saw your documented case of creep and then hearing you say that GA said a certain amt. of creep is acceptable in some cases is just flat out discouraging to say the least.
I just struggle with the fact that Geissele will knowingly have triggers leave that are less than perfect or could potentially have issues w. creep.
I back these triggers because they NEVER have problems....and literally every one Ive ever owned or tried has been flawless and worth every penny.
Flat out, any creep is unacceptable in my book.
Well, I want to eliminate an out-of-spec lower before I make any judgements.
I too have 3 well performing Geissele's in my rifles.
The tech also said that perhaps swapping hammers and triggers around, it would alleviate the issue.
I'm torn...
On one hand I have used 3 S2S's that were nothing short of perfect.
On the other hand I saw your documented case of creep and then hearing you say that GA said a certain amt. of creep is acceptable in some cases is just flat out discouraging to say the least.
I just struggle with the fact that Geissele will knowingly have triggers leave that are less than perfect or could potentially have issues w. creep.
I back these triggers because they NEVER have problems....and literally every one Ive ever owned or tried has been flawless and worth every penny.
Flat out, any creep is unacceptable in my book.
There's a possibility we're dealing with an out of spec lower. The trigger could be fine, but if the holes aren't right, then you can see some issues.
If every lower were perfect, there'd be no need for fully adjustable high speed triggers, everyone would just use a non-adjustable trigger. But many of those adjustments on ther higher end units exist to dial out lower imperfections. They also run another $120 for that degree of adjustability. There's no such thing as a free lunch.
Roger that, however the part about these trigger's potentially having creep occasionally, and then the acknowledgment of that fact being acceptable in the cost reducing design is downright troubling.
Ultimately I want a "SSA" or in my case "SD-C/E", and If I cannot have that or close to that....than no amt. of cost savings will make these triggers desirable.
In the gun world, I simply won't compromise(HK's and LMT's mission statement:cool:)....especially to save a buck.
Please not that my above statement is not a reflection on my actual belief that the S2S is anything other than perfect, but rather more hypothetical.
Underwhere
07-25-11, 22:07
2 of the triggers (1 good and 1 questionable) were placed into 2 more lowers tonight.
The good one remained good.
The creepy one remained creepy.
Roger that, however the part about these trigger's potentially having creep occasionally, and then the acknowledgment of that fact being acceptable in the cost reducing design is downright troubling.
Ultimately I want a "SSA" or in my case "SD-C/E", and If I cannot have that or close to that....than no amt. of cost savings will make these triggers desirable.
In the gun world, I simply won't compromise(HK's and LMT's mission statement:cool:)....especially to save a buck.
Please not that my above statement is not a reflection on my actual belief that the S2S is anything other than perfect, but rather more hypothetical.
You get what you pay for. Geissele offers various triggers at various price points with different levels of adjustability. If you want a creep free trigger, shell out $279 for their top of the line trigger. If you're only willing to pay $150, then accept that it may be less than perfect.
I'd still stick this up against LMTs offerings, and I have no idea what HK offers in the way of triggers. But I don't recall being wowed by stories/anecdotes of perfect HK triggers, so I doubt they're anything to set the world on fire.
Try contacting Geissele and see if they'll swap your trigger out with another unit. Maybe there was a manufacturing flaw in this particular unit, who knows until they inspect it. But in a world where premium triggers across the line run $225+, you might find yourself alone in the world raising a stink over a touch of creep in a $150 trigger. It's still going to be worlds better than a stock, creepy SS.
Underwhere
07-25-11, 22:44
You get what you pay for.
Try contacting Geissele and see if they'll swap your trigger out with another unit.
But in a world where premium triggers across the line run $225+, you might find yourself alone in the world raising a stink over a touch of creep in a $150 trigger. It's still going to be worlds better than a stock, creepy SS.
Yep. I paid for the SD-E on my other rifle and it's different than the S2S. I'm not expecting the S2S to be comparable with the the more expensive ones. I expect them to be comparable to other S2S triggers though.
The trigger isn't bad. It's just that my 2 other ones are different. I honestly think that if I didn't have the other 2 to compare then I probably wouldn't have noticed.
I'm going to call Geissele to see if I can ship it back to them for inspection. If it checks out fine then I'll just live with it. If I really wanted to be sure I would have paid the extra money for the SSA or SSA-E.
Added poll....
Note in my case even though all three S2S's I own have been 5 stars I could only cast one vote for 5 stars. I allowed multi answers for folks like underwhere who have multiple triggers that are ranked differently.
eta..in my eyes this trigger should and does in my case feel and operate ever bit as nicely as the SSA trigger.
Underwhere
07-25-11, 22:53
Added poll....i
Note in my case even though all three S2S's I own have been 5 stars I could only cast one vote for 5 stars. I allowed multi answers for folks like underwhere who have multiple triggers that are ranked differently.
Maybe I'll just get an American Trigger Corp Gold trigger.
Those things are ridiculously nice. Amazingly short reset. Nice break. Not carot or glass like the Geissele but the reset is awesomely short.
Maybe I'll just get an American Trigger Corp Gold trigger.
Those things are ridiculously nice. Amazingly short reset. Nice break. Not carot or glass like the Geissele but the reset is awesomely short.
That's odd, I have no experience with either but I'm just going off traces/graphs contained in add copy by each manufacturer. The AR Gold, looking at the trace/graph, should have the crispest break. It's defined by a short, comparatively low weight takeup, followed by a tall, abrupt and short duration peak where the distance of linear travel is quite short, followed by the break. Think Matterhorn type of graph.
In contrast, the Geissele's have longish takeups, at a higher initial takeup weight, followed by a longish, flat plateau, then the break after a comparatively smaller increase in pull weight. The key difference between the graphs are the manners in which they appear to break. The Geissele looks like a smooth, ball beraing riding trigger, think a Yosemite Half Dome style break. The AR Gold is a steep, abrupt break. They liken it in their add copy to have similar characteristics to a finely tuned 1911 trigger. I'm not making any claims which characteristics would be preferred, I'm just relaying what's in their add copy so buyers can decide which characteristics they might prefer.
The other big difference is total pull weight. AR Gold's come in around 2.75 - 3lb, while Geissele's come in at 3.5 - 5.5 lbs depending upon model of trigger selected. Their closest offering to an AR Gold, the S3G and S3G-E come in around 3.5 lb per their add copy. SSA's and High Speed Service Rifle triggers come in 4.5 - 6.0lb, but those are true two stages.
AR Gold did acknowledge they have a heavier pull weight, non-adjustable trigger "in the pipeline", but that's been claimed for over a year with no update on their website about ever having engineered and built such a version, so color me a bit skeptical. 3lbs is alwfully light, so I'd pidgeon hole this trigger in the competition/precision bin. No way would I want that light of a trigger in a SD gun, but if they were ever to develop their heavier pull weight version, I'd take a look.
Maybe the next best option is a Wilson TTU. Those have been written quite favorably by Stickman and they offer a couple different versions, spanning everything from competition/precision pull weights to tactical-level pull weights.
Maybe I'll just get an American Trigger Corp Gold trigger.
Those things are ridiculously nice. Amazingly short reset. Nice break. Not carot or glass like the Geissele but the reset is awesomely short.
Where did this come from....nobody is stopping you from going out and getting a $250-300 gucci gun trigger that is a superstar at the local range. The best thing about those triggers are the fact that they are newb friendly and incorporate the ghey self contained design. The only real hard use triggers besides a g.i. trigger are...
1.GA
2.KAC
3.LMT
The others are made for weekend warriors and competition..period.
If you wanna discuss those trigger's I'd suggest either starting another thread or using the orange search button. I'm not liking how this is starting to trend.
Underwhere
07-26-11, 00:52
Where did this come from....nobody is stopping you from going out and getting a $250-300 gucci gun trigger that is a superstar at the local range. The best thing about those triggers are the fact that they are newb friendly and incorporate the ghey self contained design. The only real hard use triggers besides a g.i. trigger are...
1.GA
2.KAC
3.LMT
The others are made for weekend warriors and competition..period.
Is it gucci because of the price? Because I have a Geissele SD-E too which is just about $225.
I know quite a few people putting the American Trigger Gold to "hard use". If it's a "superstar" at the range...then even better. I'm not sure how any of those things is a downside to a trigger. Not sure what qualifies a trigger as a "hard use trigger".
I'll shoot whatever is reliable and my finger likes.
Failure2Stop
07-26-11, 06:42
I'll shoot whatever is reliable and my finger likes.
Which is great, but this particular thread is about the S2S, and it's comparison to comparable triggers.
If you want to discuss/review other triggers based on your preference, feel free to start another thread. I am not saying this to quiet you, simply to make the information more available to those looking for it. Further, criticism of the S2S is absolutely fine, but let the company have the opportunity to make you happy.
To understand the trigger trace graphs, there must be an understanding of what's being shown compared to the operation of the trigger.
There is a distinct difference between slack and a first stage.
SLACK This is the amount of motion the trigger goes through before engaging the sear. Taking up the slack does not move the sear or perform any other function. It's simply wasted motion.
SINGLE STAGE A single stage trigger is one that has no travel before engaging the sear to break the shot. A single stage trigger can have slack.
TWO STAGE A two stage trigger is one that has travel before engaging the sear. It differs from slack as it's part of the trigger design. Two stage triggers often use a physical block that will prevent the sear from releasing the hammer/striker if the rifle experiences a hard jar. The first stage disengages this block before engaging the sear, which is the second stage.
The 1911 trigger is a single stage and the initial travel shown on the graph is slack regardless of what they label it. Although I have not personally verified this, I understand the Gold Trigger is also a single stage.
The graphs start with trigger bow at rest with no pressure at all. Since pressure is needed to move the trigger bow, the graph shows the amount needed to overcome the slack. You would see a slight amount of slack before engaging the first stage of a two stage trigger as well. That doesn't mean the two stage has a "first" first stage.
Trident, all mechanical triggers have creep. They must have creep or the sears would not engage. Creep is the movement of the sears towards their point of release. What we want, is minimal movement that is smooth without loss of reliability. Long smooth creep is preferable to short gritty creep. The carrot break of the SSA is from it's creep. Very smooth creep, but creep nonetheless.
Don't get too wrapped around the axle about this single S2S having more creep than the others. It's a new trigger using new processes and materials and Geisselle has a good track record of taking care of it's customers. Underwhere states the extra creep is very slight and as such, may be no trouble at all
SomeOtherGuy
07-26-11, 12:45
You get what you pay for. Geissele offers various triggers at various price points with different levels of adjustability. If you want a creep free trigger, shell out $279 for their top of the line trigger. If you're only willing to pay $150, then accept that it may be less than perfect.
Yes, this. I just can't fathom the criticisms of the S2S as being not quite as good as the SSA, when the S2S is specifically intended as a budget model to compete with the RRA and perhaps others (CMMG, Armalite, LMT, ?) in the lower price range, and it costs a lot less than the SSA in percentage terms. It's not as if Geissele is calling the S2S the best trigger of all time - they are calling it a budget option for those who can't or won't spend more for the premium triggers. I've read enough about the RRA to know I won't ever buy one. I use two of the Armalite 2-stage triggers, and they are very good for the price ($120 gets you a complete LPK with them), but if I took my SSA and made it slightly grittier/creepier it would still be a far nicer trigger than the Armalite 2-stage. And really, with a savings of $45 that only buys 100-120 rounds of 5.56 ammo, it might just be worthwhile to get the SSA if you're concerned you won't be happy with the S2S.
Suwannee Tim
07-26-11, 16:50
Maybe I'll just get an American Trigger Corp Gold trigger.
Those things are ridiculously nice. Amazingly short reset. Nice break. Not carot or glass like the Geissele but the reset is awesomely short.
Which is good? What is good about a very short reset? What is bad about a light trigger with a short reset on a semi auto is doubling, even trippling.
Underwhere
07-26-11, 18:56
Which is great, but this particular thread is about the S2S, and it's comparison to comparable triggers.
If you want to discuss/review other triggers based on your preference, feel free to start another thread. I am not saying this to quiet you, simply to make the information more available to those looking for it. Further, criticism of the S2S is absolutely fine, but let the company have the opportunity to make you happy.
Yeah, it was just a comment in passing. Wasn't expecting to create a separate discussion.
I wasn't here to criticize the S2S but give my experiences after buying 3 of them. I think my comments were pretty unbiased. I've contacted Geissele and have reported their comments for the rest of the forum to know. I'm shipping the trigger to them and will post my findings when I get it back.
I don't have any beef with Geissele. I like their triggers.
Yes, this. I just can't fathom the criticisms of the S2S as being not quite as good as the SSA
I don't think anyone is criticizing the S2S vs the SSA. I have an issue with an S2S vs two other S2S's. They should all be pretty similar and they aren't.
I don't think anyone is comparing them to more expensive higher quality triggers. My S2S's don't compare to my SD-E nor do I think it should for the price.
Which is good? What is good about a very short reset? What is bad about a light trigger with a short reset on a semi auto is doubling, even trippling.
I've never seen doubling or tripling with the people I shoot with (who have that trigger)
Gents,
The SSF, SSA, SD-C and S2S are COMBAT triggers. They are designed to be reliable in all conditions and suitable for stress shooting situations. Under stress, fine motor skills degrade. If these triggers had crisp breaks the 2nd stage could not be controlled when under stress.
In this video that Underwhere put online you can see the carrot like break in operation. He comes up to the stop and during the break you see the trigger move back a fair amount. On one of the triggers you see a stop/start movement. This is due to the milled sear that is rougher than our edm sears.
I think Underwhere sent his trigger in to our shop and I looked at it. It had this stop/start break. I took a stone to the sear and it went away. The 2nd stage sear engagement was right where it should be. By stoning I put "rounds" on the trigger, just shooting it would have done the same thing.
The Geissele COMBAT triggers have the carrot like break. In the edm cut combat triggers the sear surfaces slide across each other very smoothly, once they start moving they don't stop. On the milled sear the rougher surfaces may or may not stop once they get moving.
There is creep in our combat triggers because of significant sear engagement. I designed the SSF, SSA, SD-C and S2S combat triggers with this significant sear engagement and therefore designed creep into the trigger. Say Again: I designed creep into these triggers. I did it deliberately.
This creep does a couple of things: It makes the trigger reliable under high round counts, it allows abrasive wear to occur without compromising the function of the trigger, it helps proper operation in full automatic weapons (timing during automatic fire) and it enables the trigger to be used properly under high stress.
If the creep was not designed into the trigger the trigger could not be controlled in a combat environment.
The shooter perceives the creep as a consistent carrot like break on our edm triggers. There is no stop/start or objectionable feel because of the smooth, isotropic (non-directional) surface finish of the edm'ed surface.
A milled finish has direction to it, kind of like furrows in a farm field, or ripples from throwing a stone into a pond. This directional finish is from the rotating cutter with teeth that digs into the metal and pulls a chip out. On a microscopic scale these furrows can interfere with each other and be perceived by the shooter as roughness or stop/start movement.
So why mill a sear instead of cut the sear on an edm? In one word: time. Time=Money and therefore Money=Time. Milling is 30 to 50 times faster than edm and an extra $250,000 edm machine is not needed. (the triggers have to be on the milling machine anyway).
The S2S is designed to a price point. This is why the sears are milled, because milling is faster and if I can get the triggers off the mill quickly and not have to put them on the edm I can offer a reliable, well performing trigger cheaper than our edm'ed triggers. But you give something up for a lower price and what is given up is the beautiful, smooth, frosted glass-like sear and velvetly pull of our SSA. The pull of the $125 S2S is good but not at the same level of the $170 SSA.
Going back to how the break feels on our triggers: If the shooter wants a crisp break he needs to decide what his stress level will be when shooting. If low stress he is TARGET shooting (sorry about all the caps but I want to make a point). If high stress he is COMBAT shooting.
If Underwhere was getting shot at, his S2S trigger will feel like a glass rod when it breaks and he will be able to control that break so he can put rounds where they need to go when the proverbial buffalo chips are hitting the fan and his buddies and Nation are counting on him.
If underwhere is in his basement drinking a cool one, listening to the radio and messing with his guns and cool stuff his S2S may very well show some creep.
For TARGET shooting when the shooter desires a crisp trigger our Hi-Speed Match trigger is the way to go. With the adjusted in 6oz break, 0.003 thou sear 2nd stage sear engagement, glass like sear finishes, trigger bow moved forward 3/16" and to top it off a 4.4 millisecond lock time the Geissele Hi-Speed trigger will read the shooters mind when he wants that hammer to drop.
To summarize: If you want a crisp break buy the Hi-Speed. If you want non-adjustability and crispness buy an SSA-E or SD-E. If you want a crisp 2nd stage break and you bought an S2S, SSA, SSF or SD-C you very well may be disappointed. You bought the wrong trigger and you are asking it to do something it was not designed to do.
Well I hoped this reply helped somehow. Let me know if anyone has any other questions and I'll try and answer them. I don't get on this board too often so you might want to email me directly. I better get to bed now because tomorrow I am practicing for the new NDM (National Defense Match) at Camp Perry.
I am shooting a stock Colt 6940 with an SSA trigger. I expect my stress level to be kind of high when that shot timer is running......
WHG
Underwhere
08-05-11, 08:35
Gents,
The SSF, SSA, SD-C and S2S are COMBAT triggers. They are designed to be reliable in all conditions and suitable for stress shooting situations. Under stress, fine motor skills degrade. If these triggers had crisp breaks the 2nd stage could not be controlled when under stress.
In this video that Underwhere put online you can see the carrot like break in operation. He comes up to the stop and during the break you see the trigger move back a fair amount. On one of the triggers you see a stop/start movement. This is due to the milled sear that is rougher than our edm sears.
I think Underwhere sent his trigger in to our shop and I looked at it. It had this stop/start break. I took a stone to the sear and it went away. The 2nd stage sear engagement was right where it should be. By stoning I put "rounds" on the trigger, just shooting it would have done the same thing.
The Geissele COMBAT triggers have the carrot like break. In the edm cut combat triggers the sear surfaces slide across each other very smoothly, once they start moving they don't stop. On the milled sear the rougher surfaces may or may not stop once they get moving.
There is creep in our combat triggers because of significant sear engagement. I designed the SSF, SSA, SD-C and S2S combat triggers with this significant sear engagement and therefore designed creep into the trigger. Say Again: I designed creep into these triggers. I did it deliberately.
This creep does a couple of things: It makes the trigger reliable under high round counts, it allows abrasive wear to occur without compromising the function of the trigger, it helps proper operation in full automatic weapons (timing during automatic fire) and it enables the trigger to be used properly under high stress.
If the creep was not designed into the trigger the trigger could not be controlled in a combat environment.
The shooter perceives the creep as a consistent carrot like break on our edm triggers. There is no stop/start or objectionable feel because of the smooth, isotropic (non-directional) surface finish of the edm'ed surface.
A milled finish has direction to it, kind of like furrows in a farm field, or ripples from throwing a stone into a pond. This directional finish is from the rotating cutter with teeth that digs into the metal and pulls a chip out. On a microscopic scale these furrows can interfere with each other and be perceived by the shooter as roughness or stop/start movement.
So why mill a sear instead of cut the sear on an edm? In one word: time. Time=Money and therefore Money=Time. Milling is 30 to 50 times faster than edm and an extra $250,000 edm machine is not needed. (the triggers have to be on the milling machine anyway).
The S2S is designed to a price point. This is why the sears are milled, because milling is faster and if I can get the triggers off the mill quickly and not have to put them on the edm I can offer a reliable, well performing trigger cheaper than our edm'ed triggers. But you give something up for a lower price and what is given up is the beautiful, smooth, frosted glass-like sear and velvetly pull of our SSA. The pull of the $125 S2S is good but not at the same level of the $170 SSA.
Going back to how the break feels on our triggers: If the shooter wants a crisp break he needs to decide what his stress level will be when shooting. If low stress he is TARGET shooting (sorry about all the caps but I want to make a point). If high stress he is COMBAT shooting.
If Underwhere was getting shot at, his S2S trigger will feel like a glass rod when it breaks and he will be able to control that break so he can put rounds where they need to go when the proverbial buffalo chips are hitting the fan and his buddies and Nation are counting on him.
If underwhere is in his basement drinking a cool one, listening to the radio and messing with his guns and cool stuff his S2S may very well show some creep.
For TARGET shooting when the shooter desires a crisp trigger our Hi-Speed Match trigger is the way to go. With the adjusted in 6oz break, 0.003 thou sear 2nd stage sear engagement, glass like sear finishes, trigger bow moved forward 3/16" and to top it off a 4.4 millisecond lock time the Geissele Hi-Speed trigger will read the shooters mind when he wants that hammer to drop.
To summarize: If you want a crisp break buy the Hi-Speed. If you want non-adjustability and crispness buy an SSA-E or SD-E. If you want a crisp 2nd stage break and you bought an S2S, SSA, SSF or SD-C you very well may be disappointed. You bought the wrong trigger and you are asking it to do something it was not designed to do.
Well I hoped this reply helped somehow. Let me know if anyone has any other questions and I'll try and answer them. I don't get on this board too often so you might want to email me directly. I better get to bed now because tomorrow I am practicing for the new NDM (National Defense Match) at Camp Perry.
I am shooting a stock Colt 6940 with an SSA trigger. I expect my stress level to be kind of high when that shot timer is running......
WHG
That puts it all to bed.
Thanks for the work on the trigger. I got back late last night from some business travel and found it in my mailbox.
I threw it in my rifle and it does feel better (going from memory). It's not exactly like my other 2 triggers but still very nice. Like you said these are combat triggers.
And the whole thing about being in the basement with a cool one? It's been a long week. I think I may do that tonight.
Thanks for the great service.
ffhounddog
08-05-11, 10:00
Glad most like them. I am still waiting on my from DSG arms. They still have not recieved their order and well I have a list of stuff getting sent at one time. I hate shipping fees.
Underwhere
08-05-11, 11:04
Glad most like them. I am still waiting on my from DSG arms. They still have not recieved their order and well I have a list of stuff getting sent at one time. I hate shipping fees.
I got mine from ADCO pretty quickly
THIS PLEASE!!!!!!
I wish SO much that they would create a single stage trigger with the short and very quick reset of the S3G, but a slightly longer initial pull like the SSA. If this is possible, please make it! As MistWolf said above, this would be AR trigger perfection IMHO.
I love the SSA but when shooting with a purpose up close, I always wind up short stroking it because of the slightly longer reset.
Just my two cents... Which admittedly ain't much;)
Perhaps I'm missing something. I've run a lot of stock trigger set ups, from mil-spec AR triggers to the positively awful M16A2 trigger. I've used the stock M16A1 trigger and then replaced it with the SSF. I've also run Bushmaster NM 2 stage, JARD, Bill Springfield, self tuned mil-specs and the SSA.
I've run the SSA in 3-Gun and didn't notice any issues with reset. A couple of weeks ago at a benefit match, I got 26 hits in 15.14 seconds (out of 27 rounds fired) on a steel torso at 300 yards with my SSA equipped Noveske Rogue Hunter. Obviously reset wasn't an issue there.
So, what's the difference in reset between the SSA, the S3G and the S2S. I need a new trigger and was considering getting the SD3G for the R.H. and using the SSA in the new build, which is a patrol/HD Noveske/BCM 14.5". Would I be better off getting the S2S for the new build and leaving the SSA in the R.H.?
I absolutely love that we have so many AR triggers to choose from, but even I get a little confused about the benefits/drawbacks each one has. :confused:
Perhaps I'm missing something. I've run a lot of stock trigger set ups, from mil-spec AR triggers to the positively awful M16A2 trigger. I've used the stock M16A1 trigger and then replaced it with the SSF. I've also run Bushmaster NM 2 stage, JARD, Bill Springfield, self tuned mil-specs and the SSA.
I've run the SSA in 3-Gun and didn't notice any issues with reset. A couple of weeks ago at a benefit match, I got 26 hits in 15.14 seconds (out of 27 rounds fired) on a steel torso at 300 yards with my SSA equipped Noveske Rogue Hunter. Obviously reset wasn't an issue there.
So, what's the difference in reset between the SSA, the S3G and the S2S. I need a new trigger and was considering getting the SD3G for the R.H. and using the SSA in the new build, which is a patrol/HD Noveske/BCM 14.5". Would I be better off getting the S2S for the new build and leaving the SSA in the R.H.?
I absolutely love that we have so many AR triggers to choose from, but even I get a little confused about the benefits/drawbacks each one has. :confused:
FWIW I get short-stroke issues shooting fast close-in as well with the SSA and with the KAC. I'm talking about 10 rounds in under two-seconds fast. Example of the kind of shooting I'm talking about (5 yard mark).
http://youtu.be/2-oYRn_llgo
or like this
http://youtu.be/KX_JX8T-JjI
or this
http://youtu.be/MgvOMJan2d8
That puts it all to bed.
Thanks for the work on the trigger. I got back late last night from some business travel and found it in my mailbox.
I threw it in my rifle and it does feel better (going from memory). It's not exactly like my other 2 triggers but still very nice. Like you said these are combat triggers.
And the whole in the basement with a cool one? It's been a long week. I think I may do that tonight.
Thanks for the great service.
Underwhere...FWIW, I have a second S2S, which going from your description feels a lot like your "not quite as sharp" one. Like you, I felt it was noticeably different to both my other S2S (which is extremely sharp) and my SD-C. I therefore also contacted GA about it, wound up having a great conversation with Bill G, who explained to me exactly what he has written in his post above.
I think the point to take away from this is while you may get an S2S that does break very crisply indeed, due to the necessary time/money compromises in manufacturing detail and tolerances, you might also get one that is a little more "carroty" in nature (but even so, is still a massive improvement over many triggers).
The morale of the story IMHO is that if you want to guarantee yourself a sharp crisp breaking non adjustable trigger, as per Bills comments then the SSA-E or SD-E is the way to go. My next trigger will likely be one of these, because my personal preferences these days seem to be taking me away from "carrots" more towards "candy canes".....;)
While I'm back on this subject, another point that some might find interesting is that I decided to put the "lesser" of the two triggers in my M&P15-22 econo trainer rifle. Pleased to report it went straight in there with barely a hitch (the only thing I had to do was slightly file the flat on the plastic safety selector to give the trigger enough travel....a 20 second job) and is working a treat. Very nice to have my trainer feel the same as my "mains" which currently have an SD-C and the other S2S in them respectively.
Underwhere
08-05-11, 18:26
Underwhere...FWIW, I have a second S2S, which going from your description feels a lot like your "not quite as sharp" one. Like you, I felt it was noticeably different to both my other S2S (which is extremely sharp) and my SD-C. I therefore also contacted GA about it, wound up having a great conversation with Bill G, who explained to me exactly what he has written in his post above.
I think the point to take away from this is while you may get an S2S that does break very crisply indeed, due to the necessary time/money compromises in manufacturing detail and tolerances, you might also get one that is a little more "carroty" in nature (but even so, is still a massive improvement over many triggers).
The morale of the story IMHO is that if you want to guarantee yourself a sharp crisp breaking non adjustable trigger, as per Bills comments then the SSA-E or SD-E is the way to go. My next trigger will likely be one of these, because my personal preferences these days seem to be taking me away from "carrots" more towards "candy canes".....;)
While I'm back on this subject, another point that some might find interesting is that I decided to put the "lesser" of the two triggers in my M&P15-22 econo trainer rifle. Pleased to report it went straight in there with barely a hitch (the only thing I had to do was slightly file the flat on the plastic safety selector to give the trigger enough travel....a 20 second job) and is working a treat. Very nice to have my trainer feel the same as my "mains" which currently have an SD-C and the other S2S in them respectively.
I've come the same conclusion you have...that because of the price and manufacturing methods that it's not going to be as consistent. On the other hand it's still a great trigger for the price.
An S2S in a 15-22?
My 15-22 was supposed to be my cheapo rifle...though the thought is tempting.
From a business stand point not sure the S2S is a winner I see the ssa-3 for $200 so we have a $75 spread between the two if they had placed the SSA-E on sale at $163 I believe the number sold would have produced more cash for the business vs adding another trigger of lessor quality which "may" cause more returns, just a thought.
I haven't had short stroking issues with my SSA- and that's with splits as low as 0.12-0.13. But I can't keep that pace for 10 rounds.
Love my ssa. Love it.
sent via Android 3.1
I've run the SSA in 3-Gun and didn't notice any issues with reset.....
I do fully understand the issue some have with the reset. As described by Rob, it generally is only ever an issue when running high round/high speed drills. However....a lot of it is personal preference and training and sticking with what you've got. As I mentioned earlier, being brought up on 2 stage triggers and being a Glock shooter also, I don't personally notice it as a huge problem....as "riding the reset" is something I've always done. As far as I can tell, the S2S/SSA/SD-C seems to have a very similar reset to a stock Glock trigger. For my own preferences and shooting ability right now, having the capacity to to set up for more precise 'technical' shots outweighs the benefit gained from seeing how fast I can spank a target at 5 yards.
Now, if my shooting ability was at such a level as Kyle Lambs or Daniel Horner and co's, that .1 of a second on follow up shots might make all the difference, and I might have a different outlook....after all there is an established trend that most 3 gunners/high speed shooters use either crisp single stages like JP or Geissele's hybrid S3G, which are all extremely quick and positive resetting triggers. There again, even at that level, there's still some personal preference going on....while in the minority, Mike Voigt for instance has won everything there is to win....with a 2 stage.
Especially as it stands with me in the mid-pack and for 99% of mortals, there are plenty of other things that will far more impact stage time/overall performance that whether your trigger is single stage or 2 stage.
I understand that there are some 2 stage triggers that have really long, unpredictable and awkward resets - that I would not like....but none of the Geissele triggers are like that.
When can the ordinary Joe get one of these?
Underwhere
08-07-11, 16:02
When can the ordinary Joe get one of these?
ADCO is where i got mine
just a scout
08-07-11, 16:15
Not to threadjack, but a couple questions:
I just ordered a SSA. Can I use the KNS anti-roll pins with it? Should I? Had a buddy's hammer pin break in half on the range last month. Easy fix, had a spare pin in my parts kit, but I don't think it would have disabled the rifle with the anti-roll kit to hold it in place. (1/2 the pin shot out somewhere and was missing.)
Next question is where to apply grease during the install and what kind? I use Gunzilla for my rifle. Thanks all.
I would not use KNS.
The instructions tell you where to apply the grease, and IIRC it may even come with a small tube. I've got two but I can't remember for sure if it includes the grease or not but I'm positive the instructions tell you where to apply it.
just a scout
08-07-11, 16:25
Thanks. Why not use KNS, out of curiosity?
Thanks. Why not use KNS, out of curiosity?
http://www.adcofirearms.com/acc/Geissele_KNS.cfm
- Use the supplied pins you will get from Geissele.
I used to own a Jewell two stage comp trigger and recently purchased a SDC from Midway USA for $170. The Geisele is far superior IMHO.
If money is no concern....SD-E for a hard use precision/SD-C for a hard use GP
If your on a budget...S2S for both a hard use precision and GP AR
http://geissele.com/pdfs/TriggerSummarySheet.pdf
Army Chief
08-08-11, 06:13
Obviously, the thread has been cleaned-up, and reopened.
Please help us insure that it stays that way.
AC
SomeOtherGuy
08-18-11, 21:39
It appears that the few people who already have an S2S got it either from ADCO or directly from Geissele as a tester. Does anyone know if it's still in stock at ADCO? Is it in stock anywhere else?
I don't even see the S2S listed at BCM or G&R. At DSG it's just backordered, and at Midway it's backordered til 10/30/11. I have no problem with ADCO, I just like to know my options.
Underwhere
08-19-11, 00:39
It appears that the few people who already have an S2S got it either from ADCO or directly from Geissele as a tester. Does anyone know if it's still in stock at ADCO? Is it in stock anywhere else?
I don't even see the S2S listed at BCM or G&R. At DSG it's just backordered, and at Midway it's backordered til 10/30/11. I have no problem with ADCO, I just like to know my options.
I got mine from ADCO and didn't see it in stock anywhere else.
My midway account doesn't show any back orders for it either. It just says "coming soon". Midway's dealer price for the S2S is the same as ADCO.
I have now extensively used both these triggers and as Ive said a number of times, the KAC 2stage trigger when done right(properly adjusted since it's design allows such) is a perfect feeling SSA, and now S2S trigger. After numerous rounds to the naked touch, these triggers absolutely feel the same down to the pull weight, stage length, and crispness of break.
One retails for $329.00...the other retails for $125.00
You be the judge...quality, construction, and overall design hopefully is captured in the below comparative pictorial.
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC00215-1.jpg
See better pics below...
eta..just for clarity I used a new S2S and a slightly used KAC for those pics, however I have owned and used multiple units of both triggers now and in the past.
Looking at those pictures, I'd imagine that Geissele tumbles their parts between casting and final machining. The KAC parts have rougher surfaces where the surface roughness doesn't matter.
How's the surface finish on the sear? Both manufacturers use wire EDM, I believe.
SomeOtherGuy
08-24-11, 11:24
Looking at those pictures, I'd imagine that Geissele tumbles their parts between casting and final machining. The KAC parts have rougher surfaces where the surface roughness doesn't matter.
How's the surface finish on the sear? Both manufacturers use wire EDM, I believe.
Geissele uses wire EDM on all their other triggers, but the budget S2S model uses conventional milling only. There's a post from Bill Geissele earlier in the thread. I don't know what KAC uses.
Contact surfaces...GA triggers never seize to totally amaze me!
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC00247-1.jpg
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC00223-1.jpg
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC00232-1.jpg
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC00238-1.jpg
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC00243-1.jpg
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC00241-1.jpg
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC00245-1.jpg
My original SD trigger with well over 10,000rds on it now....this trigger will go in the dirt with me at the end of the day!
http://i53.tinypic.com/9s5hd3.jpg
http://i51.tinypic.com/11w6ej6.jpg
http://i51.tinypic.com/28rcmm8.jpg
And finally how about an appearance from the famous SSA....compared to a SD-E
http://i52.tinypic.com/25z5phu.jpg
Anybody got any feedback to share with us on these triggers...mine are still flawless.
For those who have been on the fence about whether or not to pick up a Geissele trigger, but haven't taken the leap due to the cost of them...I strongly recommend taking a serious look at this trigger that delivers very impressive performance for the buck.
The reason I personally took the leap way back when I got my first couple of SSA's was because I was tired of fighting with the colt stock g.i. triggers in my 6520's. It's a real PITA breaking a gritty 7-9lb. stock trigger, moreover any kinda shot that requires precision or distance is all but outta the question when you cannot predict at all when your particular shot is gonna break.
I was very nervous about putting a 2 stage trigger with a lighter pull in my rifles, however now after several years, I won't own a rifle without one. The ability to actually "setup" a shot(i.e. using the first stage to reach the second stage "wall"), and then control the exact moment it breaks(breaking the second stage "wall") is quite advantageous to say the least for anyone demanding accuracy or distance from their rifle. Also keep in mind that you give up nothing to a stock g.i.type trigger in terms of speed as well.
The only downside ever to a Geissele trigger the way I see it is the cost to upgrade into one of them, the S2S trigger has made that downside a whole lot easier to deal with given it's $125 price tag vs. previously having only $170-$280 price tags to choose from.
Failure2Stop
09-26-11, 14:52
I am still working with the S2S.
I have not been able to do a whole lot with it other than 100 yd zero and some 25yd presentations, but that will change shortly.
SomeOtherGuy
09-26-11, 19:38
I helped a friend install an S2S in a lower build yesterday and did some very minimal testing (both dry firing and live firing). Feel is just about identical to a Geissele SSA that I have - so close I don't think I could tell them apart without looking to see what's written on the side. I don't have nearly enough time with it to say anything else, but it looks like a winner so far.
Got sad news for you guys..
You better get the S2S now if anyone has them in stock. I was just told by Geissele that they will not be selling the S2S for resale anymore except to rifle builders who order minimum quantities of 50. Plus they are not for resale for those who do buy the minimum quantity. :(
SomeOtherGuy
09-29-11, 08:18
The S2S was still in stock at ADCO Firearms (Ohio) as of yesterday. In fact that's the only place where I ever saw them in stock. Hope that's helpful.
Anybody got any feedback to share with us on these triggers...mine are still flawless.
Around 3000 rounds (and many more dryfires) on my main S2S now....as expected its been totally flawless. Fantastic trigger; I've used it in several rifle/3 gun matches and for me, really pays dividends on the long range/small target stuff. Still pulls and fires exactly like it did when I got it. I'm actually really torn whether I prefer this trigger or my flat bowed SD-C....I kind of go between them. The SD-C just feels "nicer" and smoother, however this particular S2S has an extremely crisp, slightly lighter break on it - splitting hairs, and considering only the actual break alone, I'd say it's better my the break on my SD-C. Only noticeable when shooting at the concentration level required to hit tiny distant targets.
In the interest of full disclosure, the second S2S I have that resides in my M&P15-22 has also now had a good couple of thousand rounds+ through it. It has always had a tiny bit of creep to the second stage break, and it still has it now. Referencing back in this thread to Bills post (#98), this is just the variation in tolerances you can get with these triggers. Not a bad trigger by any means; performs within its job description as per Bills post, however I am spoiled by both the other S2S and SD-C and this one is not quite to those standards.
All in all great stuff....these Geissele triggers are addicting - my next trigger will be either an SSA-E or an SD-E to take it to the next level of crisp awesome break :)
Slvr Surfr
10-15-11, 03:37
I purchased the S2S trigger from Adco and installed it in my BCM 18" rifle, based on the recommendations on this site. I initially used CLP to lube the trigger per the instructions since I did not receive any grease with the trigger.
Upon my first tests, I found the initial take-up stage occasionally hung up during the pull. The second stage had a lot more creep than I expected. Even with extra dry fire practice, I expected that the trigger would clean itself up. I didn't. I decided to try some grease to see if that would aid in smoothing the trigger pull.
I used some Wilson Combat Ultima lube for the second go-around. I made sure to lube the pins and all of the contact points per the instructions. The WCUL did help smooth the take-up but I found the break to still have more creep than I figured it should. I was a bit disappointed in what I had gotten, based on all of the great things that I read about Geissele S2S.
I figured I would take a shot and contact Geissele by email. I was amazed to receive a reply from Bill Geissele himself within 12 hours of my first email. Bill explained that the trigger was a "Combat" trigger and that it would have a small amount of creep on the break.
I asked Bill if the usage of better grease would make any difference on the trigger pull. Bill offered to send me a replacement trigger with their grease to see if that would do better. I initially refused the replacement trigger since I figured better grease would probably do the trick. Bill asked if I could send my trigger back to him so that he could make sure that it was up to spec (on his dime). I agreed.
I received the replacement trigger with four small tubes of grease and slave pin. I installed the replacement S2S trigger using the supplied grease. All I can say is WOW. This trigger was everything that I hoped it would be. The take up is smooth and the break is more glass than carrot to me. (One could say frozen carrot!) While $125.00 is not cheap to me, it is cheap considering what this trigger provides, compared to more expensive triggers. I currently have a Timney single stage trigger in my 16" rifle and I feel that the S2S gives it one hell of a run for the money.
I would not hesitate to buy another Geissele trigger. The man and the company definitely stand behind their products. Bill also sent me a pretty nice t-shirt, patch, stickers, and hat for my trouble. If you are looking for a quality two stage trigger that is well priced definitely consider this trigger system! :happy:
Thanks very much for your great review Slvr:)
I'm a huge believer in the mobil grease, I really do wonder why these triggers didn't include the grease vial. Its seems like perhaps this was the main culprit behind the handful of reported issues with these in regards to creep on the break and first stage grittiness. I also was a bit sad to see these triggers not include the slave pin which is so useful for installs and helps make sure the trigger is being installed properly as it lines up everything up. That said, this trigger was retailing for $125 and obviously some things had to go.
Perhaps I overlooked those two things when wondering how I could install 3-4 and have them be perfect yet hear the couple of reports with issues. I had tons of the grease on hand as well as the slave pins from previous GA triggers.
Very useful feedback.
eta..Dan, just now reading your latest feedback as well, thanks again for keeping us attuned to your couple of S2Ss. I'm glad they are now working perfectly for you:)
These triggers are now called G2S and we have them instock. They can only be purchased with a complete AR or a lower.
C4
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Geissele/Geissele_G2S.jpg
What's up with the new pins in those G2Ss?
All the S2Ss I tested out had traditional GA pins with the nice little "dimples". The ones in your pic appear to be lacking the "dimple".
At any rate, I highly recommend taking advantage of Grant's package deal with these triggers. For an extra $100-$120 its a real no brainier in my book. I'm still running a pair of them as denoted in my initial review of them. Aside from maintaining one of these in two different rifles of mine, I have swapped in several others to function test and each one has performed and felt exactly the same as the first two I installed...perfect!
What's up with the new pins in those G2Ss?
All the S2Ss I tested out had traditional GA pins with the nice little "dimples". The ones in your pic appear to be lacking the "dimple".
At any rate, I highly recommend taking advantage of Grant's package deal with these triggers. For an extra $100-$120 its a real no brainier in my book. I'm still running a pair of them as denoted in my initial review of them. Aside from maintaining one of these in two different rifles of mine, I have swapped in several others to function test and each one has performed and felt exactly the same as the first two I installed...perfect!
Don't know about the pins. They did go to a different "locking" system to keep the pins from walking so that might be it.
C4
So whats the difference between the S2S and the G2S
Triggers ? Why did geissele switch ? ... Thanks
Cervantes
So whats the difference between the S2S and the G2S
Triggers ? Why did geissele switch ? ... Thanks
Cervantes
Nothing. Same same.
C4
Ok so the S2S and the G2S are the same !
and the S2S is the economy model of the
SSA trigger correct ? With minor changes.
So with that mind which trigger is better ?
The G2S or the SSA or is one not better
Then the other and there just different ?
Cervantes
SomeOtherGuy
01-19-12, 17:10
So with that mind which trigger is better ?
The G2S or the SSA or is one not better
Then the other and there just different ?
Cervantes
The SSA is better, but it's mostly from the materials (different steel) and precision of its construction (wire EDM on sear surfaces vs. conventional grinding) and the greater testing of each single one vs. (IIRC) batch testing of the S2S triggers. I have both SSA and S2S in use. I can tell the difference, but it is very small. Even the S2S is far ahead of most other brands in quality, expected durability, and feel.
Ok heres the deal I will soon be buying my first
Ar (colt 6920) and I can choose between the SSA
And the G2S and SSA-E but ive narrowed it down
To the SSA and G2S and so having never shot a
Colt and reading that the stock trigger leaves much
To be desired and hearing nothing but good about
The geissele triggers I figured why not ? ...
Now I will have the money to get either one but
Since I dont have any experience shooting with
The colt imo paying 50 bucks more for the SSA
May be money lost as I wont really know what
The difference will be at first !
Cervantes
SomeOtherGuy
01-19-12, 18:43
If it's your first AR and it's a Colt 6920 I would be inclined to leave it bone stock with the Colt trigger. I would only change from that if you have extensive trigger time with some other rifle that has a nice 2-stage trigger that you are really used to (like an M1A).
Thanks for your opinion my friend has a rra with
A 2 stage trigger that I shoot alot and have shot
A oly arms stock trigger that was crap so that why
I want a 2 stage trigger because thats what im use
To shooting !
Cervantes
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.