View Full Version : SIG USA 556-A1...Here we go again
variablebinary
06-12-11, 02:51
As far as I am concerned, SIG USA is a company that just doesn't get it. Since they don't get it now, they probably never will.
However, this is something of a step in the right direction, but we still have the garbage pot metal sights that are the wrong height for the SIG 55x platform, the flash hider is balls, the rail is the same crap as the 556, and the hand guard is all wrong.
I don't especially have a problem with the aluminum lower...for now, but the magazine paddle doesn't look as easy to access as the Swiss model
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b155/jgwatches/551-A1-Sell-1-CDNN-4.jpg
SIG551-A1
SIG551-A1™
TACTICAL RIFLE SIG551-A1 features
- Two-position adjustable gas valve
Gas piston, rotating bolt
- Military grade barrel ensures accuracy and durability
- M1913 Picatinny rail for mounting optics
Ambi safety selector
- 7075-T6 aluminum Hard coat anodize lower receiver
SIG551-A1 Specifications
Caliber 5.56X45mm NATO
Overall Length 36.1”
Length with Stock Collapsed 34.6”
Length with Stock Folded 26.0”
Barrel Length Without Flash Suppressor 16”
Operating System Gas piston, rotating bolt
Rifling Lead 1 in 7”
Number of Grooves 4
Muzzle Break Fluted
Sight Radius 18.0”
Weight without Magazine 7.0 lbs
Magazine Type Swiss Polymer
Magazine Capacity 20/30
Trigger 2-Stage
Trigger Pull 7.5 lbs
TACTICAL PRECISION, For 2011, SIG SAUER® is offering several variants to its tactical platforms. NEW to this lineup is our new SIG551-A1, chambered for the widely used 5.56 x 45mm NATO caliber using Swiss Polymer magazines. The SIG551-A1 features a distinctive swiss folding stock, and an M1913 rail for accessory attachment. The 16” barrel features four-groove rifling and a twist rate of 1:7”. The SIG551-A1 measures 36.1” but can fold to 26”, making it ideal for situations where maximum maneuverability is required. For Special Forces requiring an accurate, more potent rifle, chambered in 5.56 x 45mm NATO, the SIG551-A1 sets a new standard for dependable operation and function.
An ISO 9001: 2000 Certified Company, Manufacturing in Exeter, New Hampshire
SIG SAUER, Inc. reserves the right to correct any errors or inaccuracies contained herein, and to revoke stated offers at any time without notice.
Prices, availability, specifications, and promotional offers are subject to change or cancellation at any time without notice.
I've got time. I'll continue to wait for something built closer to the true Swiss TDP
http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/4012/carbine00pu2.jpg
...and an advertised buttstock that they won't include on the shipped product.
They desperately need a new CEO. I vote for SteyrAUG.
It's visually pleasing, but honestly it's going to be loose fitting, prone to rust as I'm sure they half assed the finish and I'm sure the furniture will be cheap Israeli knockoff.
Good job, another SIG product.
''For Special Forces requiring an accurate, more potent rifle, chambered in 5.56 x 45mm NATO, the SIG551-A1 sets a new standard for dependable operation and function.'' This is my favorite line.
The 551-A1 is just another poorly executed iteration of the 556, this time with an aluminum lower designed to take Swiss mags. Same flawed method of attaching an aluminum rail to a steel receiver. I would wager to say that the only Swiss made parts on that rifle are the buttstock and mags. And what in the world is with the cheese-ball flash hider? Sig is just continually showing how to screw the pooch on a rifle that actually should be a no-brainer to produce.
After the whole gas port issue we've seen I wouldn't trust one even if the configuration was 100% Swiss "style."
mrwickwire
06-12-11, 11:35
They are getting warmer.......
Ferris2son
06-12-11, 13:33
I love my 556.
Just my opinion...
:D
Wow ! Just how many times is SIG going to try and "reinvent" the same rifle ? What's going on at SIG ? Nobody home ?
misanthropist
06-12-11, 15:20
As a Canadian with access to the civilian version of the 550, I just don't understand why this gun exists.
Is it really that much of a savings to build these instead of whatever US parts are needed to make the 55x models importable, or to import whatever parts from the 55x could be brought in?
It just doesn't make a ton of sense to me. The 550s are really nice rifles and their reputation is stellar. It's not like there is nobody in the US with experience building great rifles, either. I am 100% confident that SIG USA could build the 55x correctly if the will was there, which it clearly isn't...but seriously, why do this?
I guess that's what happens when you let a gun company go to non-gun people. It used to be a SIG...now it's just another blender or dishwasher or brake caliper widget that gets manufactured for x dollars and sells for x+y dollars to make money for the shareholders, who, for all I know, could be anonymous mutual funds companies.
But then I guess if I liked money more than guns, which apparently I don't, judging by my lifestyle, their approach might make sense to me.
Ah, screw the business logic...come on SIG, where is the pride in what you do? Isn't that worth an extra few bucks a gun?
Typical SIG these days. Make 50 variations of the same cheapened gun to see how many they can push out the door for the good of the "shareholders".
Each time maybe a step of two closer to the 551 cosmetically but I am not sure who can just justify a weapon made this cheaply that will need $50 mags. Though CDNN did allow me to stock on them for my 552.
I took a sig 556ER in on trade. Thought it would make me want a SCAR less. Well it's my least favorite rifle in the safe right now. I'm going to give it a little more of a chance to grow on me. It's front heavy and my ar's are more accurate.
It's a SIG 556 Classic that uses the SIG 556R lower, lol.
It's a SIG 556 Classic that uses the SIG 556R lower, lol.
And the sad part is it will sell. It looks close enough to the original that people who "always wanted one" will buy it because they can finally afford to do so.
Even worse will be those who truly think they own a US 550 series because they have no way of understanding the difference. Just look how many 556 owners don't understand, including a few who actually think they are just as good (or in a few cases better) than Swiss produced SIG rifles.
I'm just thankful that a few people have snapped up those 552 Title 1 guns. We needed a few more genuine SIG owners who understand.
Nuff said.
http://i54.tinypic.com/2qsp0yw.jpg
charmcitycop
06-13-11, 00:49
......
So close...like getting ready to bust that nut, and the doorbell rings. C'mon SIG. Get your act together and stop torturing us!
MilitaryArms
06-13-11, 08:32
It will have the same sloppy fit. The same cheap/toyish handguards. The same general lack of anything resembling quality control. But it does look more like a proper Sig 550.
The US made 55X series would be better used for airsoft internals.
Hmm,
I'm of the opinion that building the 556 to accept STANAG/AR15 magazines was about the only thing SIG did right.
So with this rifle, I will get the same crappy build quality of the 556, the peening on the bolt face, crap shoot gas regulator, poor quality sights, AND be forced to buy a propitiatory magazine :confused:
I soo wanted a 556 at first. Now I'm pretty sure a 522 will be the closest I'll ever consider getting.
How much are these new 556A1 models I cant find anything on the net about them besides here.
Thanks
Call the exclusive distributor (CDNN) or buy a real rifle. :-P
dudley2112
06-13-11, 17:00
why dont they just make an american version of the actual swiss rifles instead of these half ass abominations
To build or assemble a real SIG here would cost about as much as a real SIG. Very limited market for that. We cant even get real kraut SIG pistols anymore.
At least the Italians still import real 92's.
variablebinary
06-13-11, 19:16
To build or assemble a real SIG here would cost about as much as a real SIG. Very limited market for that. We cant even get real kraut SIG pistols anymore.
At least the Italians still import real 92's.
I doubt it. This is the excuse we keep getting, but I don't buy it.
In Canada, firearms are about 30% more expensive than guns sold in the USA. With that in mind, the Canadian Swiss Arms PE90 is $3767.73 USA dollars. Take away the typical 30% markup, and that is $2637.41 which is in the same price market as the SCAR, MR556 and plenty of high end AR15's
So the notion that it can't be done due to cost is just an excuse.
Though, if SIG makes a 556-A1 pistol or SBR with rail, I might actually consider getting one for a project gun. Maybe...
Not a lot of market at $2,600.
variablebinary
06-13-11, 19:32
Not a lot of market at $2,600.
If that were true, there would be less guns coming out in that price range, not more.
In addition, that is a piss poor reason to make crap.
The 551-A1 is salvagable for tinkerers and hobbyist looking to get closer to the mark
Add this
https://www.cogunsales.com/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/4fed377a5b5ee72965ea8c5499b31e2e.jpg
And this
https://www.cogunsales.com/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/6e96825a76a37b75edd7d712d60bac97.jpg
And this
https://www.cogunsales.com/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/5da1313da3c75f4169c7abaeb0841be8.jpg
Hack the barrel down, and that might be in the "close enough" range provided the parts are QC'ed a reasonable amount.
Has all the drawbacks of both 556 and 55X systems, even though I don't really consider the Swiss mags a drawback, some do and I can see their point.
The 55x series in the US needs 7 domestic parts if using a removable flash hider, 6 if the flash hider is integral with the barrel.
Assuming they employ appropriate quality control, if Sig Sauer USA would offer the 556 as follows:
- Upper receiver with welded in place Swiss-spec diopter rear sight housings and the appropriate dovetail in the trunion AND also offered Swiss-spec welded in place optics rails.
- US aluminum "Classic"-type lower receiver. Keep the ability to use AR15 spec mags (I actually think this is a step in the right direction), use the Swiss stock attachment (as is done on the Classic lower). Add an ambidextrous magazine release. Possibly add a paddle mag release. Offer it with Swiss standard stock, Swiss collapsing/folding stock, or M4 stock adapter. Get rid of the AR15-type trigger guard and give it a more Swiss-pattern trigger guard.
- US gas piston
- US barrel
- US muzzle device
- Swiss imported furniture
- Swiss imported front and rear sights
- Swiss imported bolt carrier, bolt, hammer, trigger, sear
US parts: Lower (trigger housing), upper, barrel, piston, mag body, mag follower, mag floor plate, muzzle device.....more than enough.
This allows the critical components to be Swiss, uses Swiss sights, and appropriately "Americanizes" the 55x platform so as to both reduce costs and make it more adoptable by US consumers and LE.
Again, Quality Control, Quality Control, Quality Control.
I think a properly executed 556 as spec'd above would actually sell well at the $2500 mark.
The 55x series in the US needs 7 domestic parts if using a removable flash hider, 6 if the flash hider is integral with the barrel.
Assuming they employ appropriate quality control, if Sig Sauer USA would offer the 556 as follows:
- Upper receiver with welded in place Swiss-spec diopter rear sight housings and the appropriate dovetail in the trunion AND also offered Swiss-spec welded in place optics rails.
- US aluminum "Classic"-type lower receiver. Keep the ability to use AR15 spec mags (I actually think this is a step in the right direction), use the Swiss stock attachment (as is done on the Classic lower). Add an ambidextrous magazine release. Possibly add a paddle mag release. Offer it with Swiss standard stock, Swiss collapsing/folding stock, or M4 stock adapter. Get rid of the AR15-type trigger guard and give it a more Swiss-pattern trigger guard.
- US gas piston
- US barrel
- US muzzle device
- Swiss imported furniture
- Swiss imported front and rear sights
- Swiss imported bolt carrier, bolt, hammer, trigger, sear
US parts: Lower (trigger housing), upper, barrel, piston, mag body, mag follower, mag floor plate, muzzle device.....more than enough.
This allows the critical components to be Swiss, uses Swiss sights, and appropriately "Americanizes" the 55x platform so as to both reduce costs and make it more adoptable by US consumers and LE.
Again, Quality Control, Quality Control, Quality Control.
I think a properly executed 556 as spec'd above would actually sell well at the $2500 mark.
How do you not consider the barrel to be a critical component? How do you even come to these conclusions?
The proper breakdown of US made parts should be:
1. Hammer
2. Trigger
3. Muzzle device
4. Carrier
5. Pistol Grip
6. Gas piston
7. Forearm
This leaves you with Swiss receivers, a Swiss barrel, a Swiss bolt, and Swiss trunion which are the critical parts dimensional and stress wise.
Scott,
I am suggesting a way for Sig Sauer USA to salvage the domestically produced 556. They already make the barrel and receiver here, so I don't see that changing. And the 556 actually has a high quality cold hammer forged barrel. Is it Swiss? No. But I don't see Swiss barrels, trunions, and receivers being used.
What SHOULD have happened is that the Swiss 55x line should have been imported in a bastardized form and debanned with appropriate US parts in the same way this is done for the Arsenal bulgy and Saiga Ak line and the SCAR series. But alas this is not what happened.
I own three Swiss 55x rifles and three 556s. I am well versed in their differences and the shortcomings of the 556.
The 55x series in the US needs 7 domestic parts if using a removable flash hider, 6 if the flash hider is integral with the barrel.
Assuming they employ appropriate quality control, if Sig Sauer USA would offer the 556 as follows:
- Upper receiver with welded in place Swiss-spec diopter rear sight housings and the appropriate dovetail in the trunion AND also offered Swiss-spec welded in place optics rails.
- US aluminum "Classic"-type lower receiver. Keep the ability to use AR15 spec mags (I actually think this is a step in the right direction), use the Swiss stock attachment (as is done on the Classic lower). Add an ambidextrous magazine release. Possibly add a paddle mag release. Offer it with Swiss standard stock, Swiss collapsing/folding stock, or M4 stock adapter. Get rid of the AR15-type trigger guard and give it a more Swiss-pattern trigger guard.
- US gas piston
- US barrel
- US muzzle device
- Swiss imported furniture
- Swiss imported front and rear sights
- Swiss imported bolt carrier, bolt, hammer, trigger, sear
US parts: Lower (trigger housing), upper, barrel, piston, mag body, mag follower, mag floor plate, muzzle device.....more than enough.
This allows the critical components to be Swiss, uses Swiss sights, and appropriately "Americanizes" the 55x platform so as to both reduce costs and make it more adoptable by US consumers and LE.
Again, Quality Control, Quality Control, Quality Control.
I think a properly executed 556 as spec'd above would actually sell well at the $2500 mark.
Given this, I would agree that a properly manufactured 556/551 with Swiss parts would be well above the $2500 mark. I am told current LE pricing with last week's exchange rate had the 553 going at $4700 per rifle.
I also remember talking with a engineer/designer who worked at Swiss arms and termed the manufacturing process to produce the 5xx series as almost "antiquated by today's standards", He was not referring to quality but to the labor intensive requirements of the design.
The market is limited, but there. No excuses for what SIG is currently making. Generally if someone had 3k to drop on multiple other guns in their lifetime, they have 3k to drop on a semi-auto carbine. Even some relatively small agencies bought the LEO SIG 55X imports.
The only new gun I've seen flying off the shelf before it even hits the shelf at the 2-3k mark has been the SCAR 17S, but that particular piece does a few things that other guns rarely do, all in one package, at a weight that no other 308's can match. SCAR 16's, ACR's and various premium AR's are kind of slow sellers. MR556's are moving pretty quick, but not nearly as quick as the SCAR 17's, and it's all in the "roll mark" with those things, IE "HK". A lot (but not all) of the guys buying MR556's were owners of HK pistols and this is sort of the first quasi-AR they deem worthy of ownership.
SIG55X's without quality control and proper manufacturing techniques are rather like... well... SIG pistols without quality control and proper manufacturing techniques.
If that were true, there would be less guns coming out in that price range, not more.
In addition, that is a piss poor reason to make crap.
Take away the typical 30% markup, and that is $2637.41
I personally don't know a single person who will pay that much for a non-full auto firearm. The only people willing to spend that much are people who have way too much money [aka collectors aka where I hope to be one day] or they will actually use the rifle in a serious situation, and there just isen't enough of them out there to justify it. They make way more money selling this knockoff crap instead.
This whole thread makes me really happy Steyr did the AUG A3 correctly.
And I suppose when you compare sales of the genuine AUG A3 to sales of the US knockoff MSAR it does seem to vindicate SIG USAs "Make me cheap and use AR mags" approach from a financial standpoint. The US gun buyer will always be willing to buy an inferior firearm if it saves money.
The gun buyer who is well informed and can afford to buy quality firearms is the exception to the rule.
What SHOULD have happened is that the Swiss 55x line should have been imported in a bastardized form and debanned with appropriate US parts in the same way this is done for the Arsenal bulgy and Saiga Ak line and the SCAR series. But alas this is not what happened.
If only...
Catering to the masses is almost always a better business move than producing a quality product. Quality costs too much.
Scott,
I am suggesting a way for Sig Sauer USA to salvage the domestically produced 556. They already make the barrel and receiver here, so I don't see that changing. And the 556 actually has a high quality cold hammer forged barrel. Is it Swiss? No. But I don't see Swiss barrels, trunions, and receivers being used.
What SHOULD have happened is that the Swiss 55x line should have been imported in a bastardized form and debanned with appropriate US parts in the same way this is done for the Arsenal bulgy and Saiga Ak line and the SCAR series. But alas this is not what happened.
I own three Swiss 55x rifles and three 556s. I am well versed in their differences and the shortcomings of the 556.
Savaging the 556 isn't going to get it done. The barrel and upper are not interchangeable with a Swiss barrel and upper.
This fact is the whole underlying problem behind the 556.
I personally don't know a single person who will pay that much for a non-full auto firearm. The only people willing to spend that much are people who have way too much money [aka collectors aka where I hope to be one day] or they will actually use the rifle in a serious situation, and there just isen't enough of them out there to justify it. They make way more money selling this knockoff crap instead.
Well there are alot people that pay that much everyday for a SCAR or HK416.
Some preban Colt AR-15s used to sell for that or more back during the ban.
Moose-Knuckle
06-14-11, 16:44
If at first you don't succeed try, try, and try, and try again. . .:rolleyes:
variablebinary
06-14-11, 16:57
If at first you don't succeed try, try, and try, and try again. . .:rolleyes:
Well considering where we started, we can't accuse SIG of not making progress
http://www.downrange.tv/productimages/sig556.jpg
Though, Swiss Arms now has the gun that SIG USA should have been making from day one
http://cdn5.thefirearmsblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Sig-Sauer-553-1.jpg
Moose-Knuckle
06-14-11, 17:45
Well considering where we started, we can't accuse SIG of not making progress
That's my point, SIG already has the holiest of holies assault rifle that EVERYONE wants but they still have not released this to the US market place. Instead they keep releasing different versions of the 556 made with sub standard parts and made to sub standard specs.
Savaging the 556 isn't going to get it done. The barrel and upper are not interchangeable with a Swiss barrel and upper.
This fact is the whole underlying problem behind the 556.
I wholly agree with you about the downfall of the barrel and trunion not being compatible with their Swiss counterparts. This was a very poor decision on Sigarms' (now Sig Sauer) part.
But I do believe the 556 could be salvaged. For instance, the early 556s used trunions that were imported from Switzerland with final machining done in the US. Early barrels were produced by FN, from what I have heard from reputable sources within FN at the time. A 556 made with trunions from Swiss Arms properly machined in the US, high quality cold hammer forged US barrels and the appropriate number of Swiss parts would make it a very good rifle.
Again, I would prefer a SIG SG 551-2 SP made in Switzerland, imported as a "sporter" and de-sporterized once stateside. But that day has yet to come.
This whole thread makes me really happy Steyr did the AUG A3 correctly.
And I suppose when you compare sales of the genuine AUG A3 to sales of the US knockoff MSAR it does seem to vindicate SIG USAs "Make me cheap and use AR mags" approach from a financial standpoint. The US gun buyer will always be willing to buy an inferior firearm if it saves money.
The gun buyer who is well informed and can afford to buy quality firearms is the exception to the rule.
I think FN can be added to the list of foreign companies that should be commended on the way they executed the importation and de-sporterizing of their foreign manufactured rifles. If only SAN/SwissArms would take a cue from Steyr and FNH.
You hit the nail on the head with the MSAR analogy. The US gun buying public just wants things that LOOK cool. They care not about quality control, proper construction, use of proper materials.
I gonna say that SIG USA did it half right when they produced the 556series rifle, I recently got to spend some range time with a select-fire 10.5 barrel 556 and the quality of the upper and barrel surprised me...
I spend hours dumping thousands of rounds into the gun and did not have one malfuction using 62 grain federal, the gun was even dry for the first thousand rounds because the rep forgot to lube it...
We both agreed that the main faults of the 556 lie in the lower and stock, nothing close to the construction of the 550/551 series.
I was told that SIG is run by the same person that Kimber had hired to greatly expand (and in the process lower the quality) of their handguns....
I'm a die hard SIG fan. Ive owned a SIG 556 but sold it, as I see the platform never becoming mainstream or of sufficient quality to last. SIG/Exeter markets the flavors of the month and is becoming a joke to anyone who really knows firearms.
I went this route.
http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx113/rhinowso/IMG_0209.jpg
Rhino
the Swiss 55x line should have been imported in a bastardized form and debanned with appropriate US parts in the same way this is done for the Arsenal bulgy and Saiga Ak line
I was just thinking about how close to original the SLR/SGL series of AK's were done, and why SIG Arms/Sig Sauer USA (Whatever they call themselves now) couldn't just do the same.
Maybe this ad was released just to gauge internet feedback before release of an actual product. The 551-A1 is not on CDNN's website. (The ad had their website listed incorrectly anyway). I've seen larger photos of that CDNN ad, and the flash hider looks to be photoshopped onto the barrel. It is a step in the right direction, but as many have already mentioned there is a lot more "Swissifying" that will have to be done.
You have chosen... wisely.
I went this route.
SmokinGunMP5
06-18-11, 10:04
Hmm...my thoughts:
1) I have the funds to purchase a preban 551 but that would be crazy.
2) This new rifle looks 'salvageable' through products available at CGS but do I really want go through all that effort for a half-arsed variant.
3) I can wait for Roger to sell those 'worn' but genuine 551s and spend some money to restore it to like new condition.
Decisions, decisions. I personally would spend 4k in a heart beat for a true SwissArms 551 SBR or carbine with welded sights.
Nice try though Sig USA.
Wow. I mean, it looks better than the 556, but still as has been said above, SIG is dropping the ball.
They should change their motto to "To Hell with Our Customers".
The truth is, SIGs reputation is waning.
Back in the 90s, lots of agencies used their pistols. The classic P-series, P220/226/228/229/239.
But not anymore, as SIG lost the innovative edge and let their quality slide. Sure, NSW still uses P226s and there are agencies who continue to use and buy new SIG pistols, but SIG has focused on trying to please the casual shooter with all of their different flavor of the month models.
Then there are the rifles. I don't believe any military unit uses SIG USA rifles. If any LEOs use them I would bet the are individual officer rifles, not Dept issue.
Again, SIG is using their previously established reputation to sell knock off style rifles to the public.
And I guess if their business plan works, they'll stay in business. But they won't be known for being a top tier firearms manufacturer like HK, FN, LWRC, KA, etc.
Rhino
If only this were the CDNN catalog.
This is the SIG page from the LaGardere gunshop in Switzerland. Notice the used PE90s for 1495 Ch ($1700'ish USD). But also notice the B&T railed fore-end which comes out to about $800 USD.
http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/8472/lagarderesigcatalog4201.jpg
And the 553 for 2995 Ch ($3500'ish USD):
http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/6159/sig553lagarderecatalog6.jpg
Once again, a $4000 rifle is offered for less then half, and people complain that corners are cut and its a cheap POS.
Once again, a $4000 rifle is offered for less then half, and people complain that corners are cut and its a cheap POS.
How is the SIG 556 a $4K rifle? As you can see, the SIG 551 isn't even a $4k rifle. The only reason 551/2 go for that much and more here is availability.
People complain due to SIGs previous track record with the 556 series and their bullshit marketing... Used buy Elite forces???? Gimmie a break SIG... Nobody except noobs believe that line of BS
Rhino
Once again, a $4000 rifle is offered for less then half, and people complain that corners are cut and its a cheap POS.
:sarcastic:
You're joking right? This isn't a $4000 product being offered for half, this is a $1000 product being offered for double. This rifle is in no way equivalent to a $4000 Swiss rifle. Sure it almost looks the part, much in the same way a Century Tantal looks the part, but isn't.
People complain that the 556-series had corners cut and is a cheaply-made POS because corners were cut and it is a cheaply-made POS.
The truth is, SIGs reputation is waning.
Back in the 90s, lots of agencies used their pistols. The classic P-series, P220/226/228/229/239.
But not anymore, as SIG lost the innovative edge and let their quality slide. Sure, NSW still uses P226s and there are agencies who continue to use and buy new SIG pistols, but SIG has focused on trying to please the casual shooter with all of their different flavor of the month models.
Then there are the rifles. I don't believe any military unit uses SIG USA rifles. If any LEOs use them I would bet the are individual officer rifles, not Dept issue.
Again, SIG is using their previously established reputation to sell knock off style rifles to the public.
And I guess if their business plan works, they'll stay in business. But they won't be known for being a top tier firearms manufacturer like HK, FN, LWRC, KA, etc.
Rhino
RPD (Richmond VA Police Dept.) bought SIG 556's for SWAT, and they promptly started to fall apart on the range.
Complete and total pieces of shit.
Once again, a $4000 rifle is offered for less then half, and people complain that corners are cut and its a cheap POS.
Genius, no modern assault rifle costs $4000+. The only reason why they do is because of an import ban due to gun control.
If a SIG55X was sold in the US and there was no import ban, it would sell for around $2000 to $2500 which is in line with every other modern rifle.
Genius, no modern assault rifle costs $4000+. The only reason why they do is because of an import ban due to gun control.
If a SIG55X was sold in the US and there was no import ban, it would sell for around $2000 to $2500 which is in line with every other modern rifle.
Unless it was made stateside the current LE price of a imported Swiss arms 551 direct was 4700.00 according to pricing i got 2 weeks ago. The major hit was the exchange rate admittedly which was 1.17 Swiss franc to the us dollar give or take.
RPD (Richmond VA Police Dept.) bought SIG 556's for SWAT, and they promptly started to fall apart on the range.
Complete and total pieces of shit.
What the hell were they thinking. 5 minutes with them and they should have been able to see that these were not suitable for any serious use.
What the hell were they thinking. 5 minutes with them and they should have been able to see that these were not suitable for any serious use.
Central VA was a SIG strong hold throughout the 90's. When the FBI went with SIG, VASP went with them as well, and when VASP went SIG, most of the counties and cities around here did.
Richmond is not a rich city, and when SIG offers stuff for basically free, they take it. They actually had SIG 551's in the SWAT armory, but had some issues with magazines.
RPD had a bunch of nice Winchester M1897 Riot and Trench guns that were given them by the Federal Gov't back during prohibition.....SIG came in and took them all in trade for SIGPRO's and 556's. The city didn't have to spend any money and they wouldn't have sold the shotguns on the open market either, so it was a "win" for them.
RPD (Richmond VA Police Dept.) bought SIG 556's for SWAT, and they promptly started to fall apart on the range.
Complete and total pieces of shit.Thanks for the info, I was unaware that even a smaller LEO unit tried the 556.
It makes me even more certain I made the right decision selling my 556 and taking that cash as the base for my two M4 DI builds. The are fun guns, durable and with abundant spare parts / accessories, they'll last.
The SCAR 16 was my choice for a truely durable gas operated rifle. FN did a great job working to bring that weapon to the civilian markets. I'm sure I could have gotten a rock solid gas operated AR for that cash too, but I really wanted something a little different than the norn. I thought hard about getting one of those Swiss 552s w/ pinned fake suppressor, but at $4K and needing work and a stamp to get to an SBR, it was just too much for too little.
If the US SIG 556A1 floats ur boat, good on ya. But I doubt you'll find those elite units that use it listed anywhere. ;)
Don't hate the player, hate the game.
Rhino
RPD (Richmond VA Police Dept.) bought SIG 556's for SWAT, and they promptly started to fall apart on the range.
Complete and total pieces of shit.
Damn, that's hardcore.
gearsource
06-19-11, 00:17
Somebody on another forum has put together very nice 556 based clones of the 550 and 551. However, it was not cheap...
http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=3152032#post3152032
RPD had a bunch of nice Winchester M1897 Riot and Trench guns that were given them by the Federal Gov't back during prohibition.....SIG came in and took them all in trade for SIGPRO's and 556's. The city didn't have to spend any money and they wouldn't have sold the shotguns on the open market either, so it was a "win" for them.
And I would have GLADLY traded them Glock 17s and Colt 6920s for those prohibition Winchesters.
:cray:
Well there are alot people that pay that much everyday for a SCAR or HK416.
Some preban Colt AR-15s used to sell for that or more back during the ban.
Since when is HK the price point that everyone has to match?:p
HK is rip-you-off pricing!
Since when is HK the price point that everyone has to match?:p
HK is rip-you-off pricing!
If Colt made a piston rifle, it would cost about the same.
Quality rifles like Colt, Knights, HK, FN, etc. tend to cost.
BullittBoy
06-21-11, 14:39
I agree with Steyr AUG on this one.
I read an article where HK gave a guy 90K rounds for a 9mm P30 and he finally broke a piece off the frame with 90K rounds but the gun kept going. All that broke were small springs up till this point and he only cleaned it every 5 thousand rounds!
And it still shoots under 2" at 25 yards with that many rounds through it. Very few weapons will last that long much less the barrel. HK is expensive but you are buying a weapon to last lifetimes. You also have to keep in mind they give original owner lifetime warranty and the gun is sent to proof houses in Germany and stamped that it meets standards. NO ONE does this in the US, and I never read "My HK is a piece of shit and won't work" threads like I read about Sig, Beretta, Springfield Armory, etc.
charmcitycop
06-21-11, 16:07
.........
HK...the gun is sent to proof houses in Germany and stamped that it meets standards.
Most European countries require proof testing by law. That means a proof round is fired, not that an HK engineer decided it was needed. It is basically a remnant from a time when steel was not as consistent and strong, not a measure of quality with modern materials.
Alaskapopo
06-21-11, 19:43
If Colt made a piston rifle, it would cost about the same.
Quality rifles like Colt, Knights, HK, FN, etc. tend to cost.
You do pay for what you get however HK does overprice. They don't care about the civilian market or the local LEO market. They only care about the military and Fed LEO's. Their price their guns like they simply don't care if people buy them or not. That is fine but to say they price them in line with other quality makers is simply false.
Pat
You do pay for what you get however HK does overprice. They don't care about the civilian market or the local LEO market. They only care about the military and Fed LEO's. Their price their guns like they simply don't care if people buy them or not. That is fine but to say they price them in line with other quality makers is simply false.
Pat
HK handguns cost as much as SIG or Kimber handguns, how is that overpriced? Not everything is a Glock.
I also disagree that they don't care about the civilian market, import restrictions don't equal not caring. Right now the civilian market is probably as significant as any other.
Now support for LE is a problem in recent years and that is why a lot of departments have moved away from HK to AR15 rifles.
Alaskapopo
06-21-11, 20:04
HK handguns cost as much as SIG or Kimber handguns, how is that overpriced? Not everything is a Glock.
I also disagree that they don't care about the civilian market, import restrictions don't equal not caring. Right now the civilian market is probably as significant as any other.
Now support for LE is a problem in recent years and that is why a lot of departments have moved away from HK to AR15 rifles.
Actually the main reason for the move to AR15's is due to the far superior performance of the 5.56 vs the 9mm. The MP5 is the best subgun out there at least in my opinion. But as a rule sub guns are obsolete.
Yes HK makes a 5.56 carbines but they suck. All of my friends who have to use them on the Anchorage PD SWAT team hate their HK 53's. They default to the MP5's because they work and AR15's are not an option for them.
As for HK pistols they are geneally well built and run well. Down sides, top heavy which magnifies recoil and muzzle flip, terrible triggers and poor ergonomics (which has greatly improved in recent models) I carried an HK USP in 45 acp as my first duty weapon and I don't miss it.
Pat
lloydkristmas
06-21-11, 23:33
Actually the main reason for the move to AR15's is due to the far superior performance of the 5.56 vs the 9mm. The MP5 is the best subgun out there at least in my opinion. But as a rule sub guns are obsolete.
Yes HK makes a 5.56 carbines but they suck. All of my friends who have to use them on the Anchorage PD SWAT team hate their HK 53's. They default to the MP5's because they work and AR15's are not an option for them.
As for HK pistols they are geneally well built and run well. Down sides, top heavy which magnifies recoil and muzzle flip, terrible triggers and poor ergonomics (which has greatly improved in recent models) I carried an HK USP in 45 acp as my first duty weapon and I don't miss it.
Pat
Wasnt the HK91/G3 the one that broke down hard during Alaska's winter testing for patrol carbines? I think the charging handle broke off, if I remember right. I love HK weapons, dont get me wrong, its almost all I own at this point.
Wasnt the HK91/G3 the one that broke down hard during Alaska's winter testing for patrol carbines? I think the charging handle broke off, if I remember right. I love HK weapons, dont get me wrong, its almost all I own at this point.
Some of the extreme weather we have here will break any firearm. Anchorage PD is the largest department here in the state and their primary firearms guy is a HK fanatic from back in the day. As Alaskapopo said, HK makes great product for durability and reliability but they suck at eurgonomics and customer service. Use to own an HK91 and just bought a MP5 (the .22 Walther makes that HK put their name on). Could not reach the mag release very well on either one and I have long fingers. Great rifles (not a fan of their handguns for the same reasons as Alaskapopo) but not my first choice for duty or competition work.
BWT I read on ARFCOM that the MSRP for the "improved" 556 will be $1800.00 (not sure where that figure came from). I really really wish SIGUSA would just make the real thing (like Steyr) for us junkies and keep the "Classic" for their bargin base unit. The true SIG lowers are available.....:sad:
Actually the main reason for the move to AR15's is due to the far superior performance of the 5.56 vs the 9mm. The MP5 is the best subgun out there at least in my opinion. But as a rule sub guns are obsolete.
Yes HK makes a 5.56 carbines but they suck. All of my friends who have to use them on the Anchorage PD SWAT team hate their HK 53's. They default to the MP5's because they work and AR15's are not an option for them.
I think you are forgetting the 416.
And subguns aren't obsolete, they are just a special application weapon. The AR has simply gotten to be small enough it can function as a jack or all trades well enough.
As for HK pistols they are geneally well built and run well. Down sides, top heavy which magnifies recoil and muzzle flip, terrible triggers and poor ergonomics (which has greatly improved in recent models) I carried an HK USP in 45 acp as my first duty weapon and I don't miss it.
Pat
I have not found mine to be top heavy at all. Poor ergos? Are you talking about the USP? I hope not. Trigger isn't as good as say a SIG, but much better than most DA triggers such as Berettas.
I think your problem is you carried a HK USP 45. Name one other high capacity 45 with similar features that wasn't also a beast with better ergos?
And the only reason you had the giant .45 is because HK DID care about the civilian market, which was my original point.
As Alaskapopo said, HK makes great product for durability and reliability but they suck at eurgonomics and customer service. Use to own an HK91 and just bought a MP5 (the .22 Walther makes that HK put their name on). Could not reach the mag release very well on either one and I have long fingers. Great rifles (not a fan of their handguns for the same reasons as Alaskapopo) but not my first choice for duty or competition work.
Blame ATF.
The G3, which the 91 is based on, has a paddle magazine release as well but that feature had to be omitted to prevent the use of swing down trigger groups. You can have a gunsmith custom install a factory paddle magazine release but that is a costly option for the average shooter.
Or you can install an aftermarket Tac Latch which does more or less the same thing.
http://www.taclatch.com/default.asp
Alaskapopo
06-22-11, 00:48
I think you are forgetting the 416.
And subguns aren't obsolete, they are just a special application weapon. The AR has simply gotten to be small enough it can function as a jack or all trades well enough.
I have not found mine to be top heavy at all. Poor ergos? Are you talking about the USP? I hope not. Trigger isn't as good as say a SIG, but much better than most DA triggers such as Berettas.
I think your problem is you carried a HK USP 45. Name one other high capacity 45 with similar features that wasn't also a beast with better ergos?
And the only reason you had the giant .45 is because HK DID care about the civilian market, which was my original point.
The 416 is over priced and frankly I would rather have a proven DI gun. As for subguns yes they are obsolete. There time has come and gone. Basically there is nothing they can do that can't be done as well or better by a compact 5.56 carbine or assault rifle. The main failing of the subgun being the pistol ammo they fire vs the rifle ammo of the 5.56.
As for the USP yes its top heavy over 80% of the weight of the firearm is perched nearly an inch above your hand. It does not sit low in the hand like a Glock. It has a high bore axis which slows down your rate of fire. Everyone who carried an HK's scores went up when (my department at the time) switched to Glock 21's. I prefer the DA pull on a Beretta over the USP any day. In the HK's defense a lot of other DA autos have a high bore axis like Sigs for example. The lower the bore is in relation to your hand the better. I have also fired the 40 version of the USP and while its grip size is reduced and easier to handle it still has all the same negative traits that the 45 has. (high bore axis, poor trigger etc)
The reason HK made the USP in 45 was a spin off of the trials for the SOCOM pistol. The USP was just a smaller version. As for other full size high cap 45's that are much better in the ergonomics department. STI Tactical in 45, Para P14, Springfield XD, Glock 21SF, Smith M&P.
We have gone way off topic however. Back to Sigs.
Actually the main reason for the move to AR15's is due to the far superior performance of the 5.56 vs the 9mm. The MP5 is the best subgun out there at least in my opinion. But as a rule sub guns are obsolete.
Yes HK makes a 5.56 carbines but they suck. All of my friends who have to use them on the Anchorage PD SWAT team hate their HK 53's. They default to the MP5's because they work and AR15's are not an option for them.
As for HK pistols they are geneally well built and run well. Down sides, top heavy which magnifies recoil and muzzle flip, terrible triggers and poor ergonomics (which has greatly improved in recent models) I carried an HK USP in 45 acp as my first duty weapon and I don't miss it.
Pat
Pat can you elaborate on the issues with the HK53s?
Pat, I own a USP .45 Tactical(which I do carry concealed!), and I honestly think its the best handgun that I have ever met. (to preface this, I want to say that I do have giant hands...) I think the USP match trigger is really decent, the USP is more accurate than my friends custom 1911s, and it is more reliable and 'bomb proof' than even current new glocks.
How light do you expect a double-stack 45 to be? I really do not understand how you can even say that the USP 45, "magnifies recoil and muzzle flip, " when the forces on a frame of a USP are drastically smaller and much more comfortable to shoot than a 1911. The recoil of a 1911 is very sharp and if you shoot 500+ rounds of 45 ACP in one sitting it does get old very fast. The USP is exponentially less harsh. My only other exposure to 45 ACP guns is steel frame 1911s though, so maybe I am just living 100 years ago....
I do not agree it is for everyone though. I have no doubt that the HK45 is a step forward, but I think this is akin to comparing the 360 modena to the 430...they are both amazing cars....they are both amazing guns.
I can tell you that if you were to give me my choice of duty weapon today, I would say this:
M9 - They break and have issues but my experiences are limited to USMC guns that are probably from 1985. Slide mounted safety is ghetto, but comfortable gun otherwise.
Sig P226 - My hands hate it, DA/SA with a horrible trigger pull (without the SRT trigger), still 1000$ new
Glocks - The 4th gens suck, grip angle is wrong(I would carry a 19 if I needed something small)
xD - I hear they are not reliable
M&P - still a new gun with teething issues... should not need a ton of apex parts to run correctly.
1911 - amazing, but most expensive, heaviest, lowest capacity, and most unforgiving to carry and not train with.
I think the USP stacks up pretty well...
The 416 is over priced and frankly I would rather have a proven DI gun. As for subguns yes they are obsolete. There time has come and gone. Basically there is nothing they can do that can't be done as well or better by a compact 5.56 carbine or assault rifle. The main failing of the subgun being the pistol ammo they fire vs the rifle ammo of the 5.56.
I wouldn't say anything. I would probably think it is easy to say that something like a MP5 would be a very quiet and hard hitting suppressed weapon(in 40 or 10mm too). I realize that it has limitations in shooting 100+ yards, but I think that is not impossible to work around. I think more and more bad guys having body armor is really a larger issue. However, I am not a member of a SWAT or SRT team, and If I have to go by myself into enemy territory I want the quietest weapon I can get that does not hamper my mobility. I would not hesitate to pick up something like a FAL or AK on the way should one be available. There is no question that a MP5 is essentially unparallelled in scenarios that restrict your distances to less than 10 yards. I do not really know if I would want a 556 gun if all I intended to do was go though houses and buildings all day with it. I think 7.62x39 would be a large temptation to me assuming I didn't work for some agency that restricted my gear choices. I can tell you that if we did work for one, all of us here would lobby for the KAC PDW. :D
As for the USP yes its top heavy over 80% of the weight of the firearm is perched nearly an inch above your hand. It does not sit low in the hand like a Glock. It has a high bore axis which slows down your rate of fire. Everyone who carried an HK's scores went up when (my department at the time) switched to Glock 21's. I prefer the DA pull on a Beretta over the USP any day. In the HK's defense a lot of other DA autos have a high bore axis like Sigs for example. The lower the bore is in relation to your hand the better. I have also fired the 40 version of the USP and while its grip size is reduced and easier to handle it still has all the same negative traits that the 45 has. (high bore axis, poor trigger etc)
http://www.rawbrilliance.com/images/sw_mp45_hk45/hk45_axis_vs_1911.jpg
The frame is really no weight. I wouldn't really agree that it is a whole inch above your hand, but as I said above... I have large hands and I believe the above pic really shows the truth. I think the method of how the barrel locks up is clearly slower than a glock. I think the glock 21 is pretty much a brick, so I wouldn't really give it a ton of free ergo points, and I would say the match trigger(tactical, elite, expert, etc) is 100 times better than the normal one... enough to make the sigs and M9s I have had look unimpressive. I do not think that bore axis alone really is everything in shootability. I do not know if I would really compare my old 9mm USP to my friends glock 34, because I know for a fact the glock does shoot faster, but I really doubt the importance of trying to make a semi-auto glock a weapon that shoots 400+ rounds a minute here. There is no reason to shoot one that fast. Accurate hits on target are what matter here, not trying to practice into having a machine pistol trigger finger.
On the 53's I was told of broken locking blocks and radically different points of aim with their suppressors vs having them taken off.
Pat
The second point is a suppressor issue.
Some suppressors change my POI dramatically on my Colt rifles, some do not. I don't blame the Colt rifle when it happens.
Alaskapopo
06-22-11, 14:46
The second point is a suppressor issue.
Some suppressors change my POI dramatically on my Colt rifles, some do not. I don't blame the Colt rifle when it happens.
Like I said they are not happy with their guns for many reasons. I don't blame them.
Pat
Like I said they are not happy with their guns for many reasons. I don't blame them.
Pat
I tend to suspect that most don't like them simply because they are not AR-15s and that is what they are used to. You could give them genuine Swiss SIGs and they probably wouldn't like them because they are different.
I'm just trying to keep this objective. Broken locking pieces (which is what I'm assuming you meant) are certainly not good and a valid criticism. Not sure how that would happen but I will take your word. When you take a 5.56 carbine down to subgun size there are problems like SIG 552 bolt heads that crack, AR15 gas ports which englarge and even robust designs like the HK rolling lock bolt can fail under stress. This is another reason why I don't completely buy into the "the short carbine has made the subgun completely obsolete" school of thought. That said the Knights PDW might be the ultimate in that platform.
But blaming a system for things like POI shifting if a suppressor is added is hardly being objective. Same goes for criticizing a USP 45 for being big and bulky. It's an unreasonable criticism, the fact that they were able to reduce it from the Mark 23 size is an impressive feat to begin with.
Some people simply like to bash certain designs and manufacturers. It would be like me criticizing the AR-15 because the DI gets the gun "dirty." It's true but we all know it really doesn't matter much and it's hardly the weak link many try and make it out to be. Just as gas piston guns are nothing more than a different operating system and not the second coming of John Browning.
I'm not here to say the HK system is perfect, I don't think a perfect system exists. Every reputable design has strengths and some weaknesses, this is the nature of almost everything. The HK USP45 is huge compared to the other .45s that existed when introduced, but it had the advantage of a combination of Walther and Browning features for the first time in one gun with a huge magazine capacity. That you found it too big for your use is a personal issue, just as some shooters find the standard 1911 to be too large, but that is not the fault of the 1911.
I think on this forum sometimes we need to take a step back and take a breath and worry about valid criticisms and recognize unrealistic or unreasonable criticisms. We also need to recognize that our own personal preferences are nothing more than that and some firearms fit "us" better than others and that is a personal issue and not an indictment of a given firearm platform. I personally find the Mark 23 to be very large, but for some people the benefits make it worth the cost in size and they can perform well enough with it to meet their needs.
Alaskapopo
06-22-11, 21:57
I tend to suspect that most don't like them simply because they are not AR-15s and that is what they are used to. You could give them genuine Swiss SIGs and they probably wouldn't like them because they are different.
.
I don't believe that is the case as these guys love their MP5's that they are also issued and that is what they started on. The issue seems to be with the HK53's. I am not saying HK sucks. But I am saying they have their fair share of blunders and they almost always charge too much for what they offer. (my opinion) I like to buy high end guns but I also like to have performance that matched the price tag.
Pat
I don't believe that is the case as these guys love their MP5's that they are also issued and that is what they started on. The issue seems to be with the HK53's. I am not saying HK sucks. But I am saying they have their fair share of blunders and they almost always charge too much for what they offer. (my opinion) I like to buy high end guns but I also like to have performance that matched the price tag.
Pat
Fair enough, I'm gonna quit while I'm ahead since I got you to admit that your LE guys love an obsolete subgun.
:D
I don't believe that is the case as these guys love their MP5's that they are also issued and that is what they started on. The issue seems to be with the HK53's. I am not saying HK sucks. But I am saying they have their fair share of blunders and they almost always charge too much for what they offer. (my opinion) I like to buy high end guns but I also like to have performance that matched the price tag.
Pat
I thought another major issue you didn't mention is the complete lack of support they usually give on such matters... Someone like Knights is just on the other side of the spectrum...
-Chris
Bushmaster-M4A3
06-25-11, 12:54
RPD (Richmond VA Police Dept.) bought SIG 556's for SWAT, and they promptly started to fall apart on the range.
Do you have more information on what parts of the Sig556 was falling apart? I'm not doubting the information, but I just like to know the weakness of the platform. It is still a Sig55x action in its heart, but with US components which may or may not work very well. From what I can tell on my Sig556 classic. The stock is definitely a problem area, but otherwise the design seems solid. The rail is secure, and no weaker than average AR rails. The AK bolt and carrier are beefy, so is the piston and recoil spring. And the AR mags are tried and true as long as it's not the stupid Sig made ones.
Bushmaster-M4A3
06-25-11, 12:59
RPD (Richmond VA Police Dept.) bought SIG 556's for SWAT, and they promptly started to fall apart on the range.
Do you have more information on what parts of the Sig556 was falling apart? I'm not doubting the information, but I just like to know the weakness of the platform.
The Sig 556 is still a Sig55x action in its heart, but with US components which may or may not work very well. From what I can tell on my Sig556 classic, the stock is definitely could be a problem area, but otherwise the firearm design seems solid. The rail is secure, and no weaker than average AR rails. The AK style bolt and carrier are beefy, so is the piston and recoil spring. The AR mags are tried and true as long as it's not the cheaply made Sig USA ones. Thus while 556 isn't as authentic as true Swiss 55x design, nor does it have the high QC of the original, it stands alone as a competent rifle that's really no worse than your average AK or AR.
Ferris2son
06-25-11, 14:05
I've been trying to figure out why there's so much animosity toward the 556.
I've own one and I've been pretty rough with it. I had someone challenge me on it's relibility once with Wolf ammo and I shot it over two weekends until it started to short stroke at 1300 rounds. I suppose I could have turned the gas regulator to "adverse" and kept firing but I didn't want to damage it.
No lube, no wipe-down, just fired mag after mag as fast as we could. Mags full of POS ammo.
It runs no matter what I feed it, suppressed or unsuppressed, Dry or wet, hot or cold and extracts casings like a monster. I have over 5000 through it now and it never fails, ever.
I cannot say these things about my SR-15e3. That gun is finicky on ammo, fails when suppressed, and I read things on this board about "you wouldn't put 85 octane in a Porsche" making excuses for it's performance.
I'm pretty sure the volumns of criticism of the 556 are not coming from people who have 5000 rounds through one. So I'm posting this for informational integrity. Mine is a tank.
Thanks
I had someone challenge me on it's relibility once
I shot it over two weekends until it started to short stroke at 1300 rounds.
I suppose I could have turned the gas regulator to "adverse" and kept firing but I didn't want to damage it.
Actually your experience is kind of what people are talking about. And if you gas ports are ports are typical of 556s turning it to "adverse" would have done nothing.
The Dumb Gun Collector
06-25-11, 16:02
"and I shot it over two weekends until it started to short stroke at 1300 rounds. "
"It runs no matter what I feed it, suppressed or unsuppressed, Dry or wet, hot or cold and extracts casings like a monster. I have over 5000 through it now and it never fails, ever.
:blink::blink:
Ferris2son
06-25-11, 20:19
No lube, no wipe-down, just fired mag after mag as fast as we could. Mags full of POS ammo.
Come on Greg, post the whole quote.
Any rifle that shoots 1300 rounds of Wolf, dry, is reliable.
Come on Greg, post the whole quote.
Any rifle that shoots 1300 rounds of Wolf, dry, is reliable.
Any rifle runs that many Wolf rounds should get a metal... :)
Seriously, I think most of the 556 bashing is from the gun guys that have seen and handled a 550/551 and were hoping that the same rifle would finally come to our shores again (I for one wish it would). As I stated earlier, I was surprised by the realiablity of the 556 I shot but I still not impressed with the lower especially the stock...
Come on Greg, post the whole quote.
Any rifle that shoots 1300 rounds of Wolf, dry, is reliable.
Guess you aren't familiar with the military specifications for Swiss SIG rifles.
Bushmaster-M4A3
06-25-11, 23:02
Maybe a comparable comparison is to ask, can Colt M4A1 reliably run 1300 rds of Wolf while dry?
Ferris2son
06-25-11, 23:08
Guess you aren't familiar with the military specifications for Swiss SIG rifles.
No Sir. I always read your posts and value your input, but what does that have to do with how my 556 functions?
How many rounds do you have through a 556? Are your critiques based soley on whether it meets Swiss specs?
I'm not going to get in a pissing match with a forum bigwig. I expressed my experience with the rifle. It's real input from joe novice. FWIW.
Stay safe.
No Sir. I always read your posts and value your input, but what does that have to do with how my 556 functions?
How many rounds do you have through a 556? Are your critiques based soley on whether it meets Swiss specs?
I'm not going to get in a pissing match with a forum bigwig. I expressed my experience with the rifle. It's real input from joe novice. FWIW.
Stay safe.
Let's not start off on the wrong foot, no pissing match is being attempted.
My point is I don't find 1300 rounds very impressive, especially in light of Swiss SIG specifications.
http://www.biggerhammer.net/sigamt/550/idr550/
The Swiss Army has not surprisingly laid down strict requirements concerning service life of the SG550 and its ability to function in severe conditions. SIG has taken full advantage of the 800,000 rounds fired during the first trials, and the pre-production prototypes successfully passed the GRD's endurance tests which stipulated a minimum rifle life of 15,000 rounds - of which 7,500 rounds should be fired without failure (breakage) of a single part. Many rifles fired 20,000 rounds, some of them even 40,000, this despite the barrel being subjected to a rigorous cycle consisting of firing 100 rounds in a minute (20 on semi-automatic, 2 x 20 in three-round bursts and 2 x 20 on full automatic) followed by immersion in water, and by cleaning and inspecting for wear and accuracy every 1,000 rounds.
Additionally I would expect ANY AK (or AK derivative) to handle 1,300 rounds without failures and the few that I have subjected to that kind of thing have done it well. The SIG 556 has a reputation for not being up to that sort of thing.
Additionally, I have put my Colts through far more than that. I have a few that have done 2,500 rounds with zero failures. Of course that wasn't Wolf but Olin .55 grain 5.56mm. I don't put Wolf in ARs because of the cases and lacquer. I have no problem with Wolf in AKs, it's fine ammo...just not for ARs.
Now onto the criteria of "Joe Novice." Unlike a few on this board who pass out if you aren't using the same exact firearms in current use with Navy Special Warfare, I understand the concept of a "recreational" rifle.
And if the SIG 556 fills the needs of a recreational rifle that is just fine. I have a few in my safe that I'd hesitate to air drop into Borneo with. But no matter how much you like your 556, and no matter how much I happen to enjoy shooting a XCR neither one of us should be here championing the merits of those rifles for "serious use" and that is why I and a few other people aren't very impressed by a rifle that makes it all the way to $1,300 rounds before it has problems.
More importantly, saying things like "it has been trouble free ever since" is not much comfort. It's like saying "except for that one time my gf hasn't cheated on me since." You don't know why it happened, it should never have happened and you have no way of knowing when or if it will happen again. When such things concern your future, they can be come proportionally much scarier.
Now if you like your 556 and enjoy shooting it, go with God. I have no criticism of you or your rifle for recreational needs. But on this forum when people talk of "reliability" they usually have more serious use in mind and a much higher expectation.
Moose-Knuckle
06-26-11, 00:12
Steyr beat me to it. . .
Ferris2son
06-26-11, 01:15
The 556 doesn't have a reputation for being upto that sort of thing? It does now. That's why I posted.
The swiss specs/tests call for regular maintenance every 1000 rounds. I shot until it started to act up. If I'd squirted some EWL in there at 1000, it wouldn't have acted-up.
I have 3 5.56 rifles. SR-15, 556, and SCAR. The only one I wouldn't "drop in" with is the KAC. But fanboys on this forum make excuses for that rifle like it came from the bible. They then blast the SIG to death without any substantial round counts thru it.
So pretty please with sugar, reread my OP as a good report on the rifle from someone who has used one, a lot, and never had to worry about ammo, springs/buffers matching pressures or anything that most of the posts on this forum are all about.
It just runs and runs.
Thanks.
The SIG 556 is much like the HK MR556 and ACR - they could have been so much more with what appears to be a little extra effort. We all love the rifles they were based on for various reasons but we just can't get those exact rifles. So when we get the 556s we end up disappointed and can't fathom why the company would go to all the trouble to get a production line set up, then stop shy of producing what we REALLY wanted. SIG could have built the 556 to 550 specs and it would likely have been a $2000+ gun but that would land it square in the company of the SCARs and MR556s - but people would have paid the money because that is what they wanted...
Spooky
Do you have more information on what parts of the Sig556 was falling apart? I'm not doubting the information, but I just like to know the weakness of the platform.
The Sig 556 is still a Sig55x action in its heart, but with US components which may or may not work very well. From what I can tell on my Sig556 classic, the stock is definitely could be a problem area, but otherwise the firearm design seems solid. The rail is secure, and no weaker than average AR rails. The AK style bolt and carrier are beefy, so is the piston and recoil spring. The AR mags are tried and true as long as it's not the cheaply made Sig USA ones. Thus while 556 isn't as authentic as true Swiss 55x design, nor does it have the high QC of the original, it stands alone as a competent rifle that's really no worse than your average AK or AR.
Sorry, didn't see this until just now. I've learned to avoid most SIG 556 threads since there have been so many of them.
Basically, buttstocks failing, for example, pulling the locking latch out of the buttstock when you unfold it, leaving it on the receiver.
Way out of spec optic rails that caused multiple optics to loose zero and in several cases fall off, using LaRue mounts. Optic rails that were canted.
Reliability issues, mainly short stroking.
For those who own a SIG 556 and have experienced no issues, and who are happy with their rifles....brother, drive on and keep running it. Not all of the SIG 556's are a three flavored crapsicle, but there are more out there that are than there should be.
One of the other guys who consults for United Armament was the former head of the SIG USA 556 project, and he's told me absolute horror stories. Having heard similar stories from an unrelated source, I have no reason to question him.
The 556 doesn't have a reputation for being upto that sort of thing? It does now. That's why I posted.
The swiss specs/tests call for regular maintenance every 1000 rounds. I shot until it started to act up. If I'd squirted some EWL in there at 1000, it wouldn't have acted-up.
The Colt and AK rifles I mentioned ran past 2,500 rounds with zero maintenance or failures. This is the point I stressed. The Swiss SIG is easily capable of the same.
So pretty please with sugar, reread my OP as a good report on the rifle from someone who has used one, a lot, and never had to worry about ammo, springs/buffers matching pressures or anything that most of the posts on this forum are all about.
It just runs and runs.
Thanks.
And if you reread my reply, I'm not impressed for the reasons stated. I'm glad you are happy with your rifle, but it still started short stroking after 1300 rounds. That said, sounds like it held out longer than a lot of 556s we've heard about.
Bushmaster-M4A3
06-26-11, 13:41
Yeah, I concur that stock and rail is a problem area on the Sig556. With the "A1" model, maybe the stock will now be more durable. In fact, if you don't care about using Sig55x magazine, just slap on the Swiss stock on the existing Classic, and then it'll be just like A1.
It still won't solve the rail issue, and I don't think there can be a solution as long as it's not welded on.
Has anyone see an A1 model in person yet? It'd be interesting to see if the lower really works well or if it's clunky alloy piece that's just milled to mimic the Swiss design.
The Colt and AK rifles I mentioned ran past 2,500 rounds with zero maintenance or failures. This is the point I stressed. The Swiss SIG is easily capable of the same.
There was an army document, from 1966, that claimed the M16A1 did ~2100 rounds between failure, and the Ak47 as tested by the army was listed at 31,000 rounds between failure. I would think that a real Swiss made sig would be much, much higher than any AR15/M16 type rifles, and much closer to that of what an AK will do.
And if you reread my reply, I'm not impressed for the reasons stated. I'm glad you are happy with your rifle, but it still started short stroking after 1300 rounds. That said, sounds like it held out longer than a lot of 556s we've heard about.
I think all of us want a real sig 552/1 but not many of us really are willing to spend 4000-5000$ on them.
Heavy Metal
06-26-11, 21:06
The AR is much higher now that it was in the mid-60's. The big bugaboo for the AR in that study was the disconnector. Likely a bad lot in the test rifles.
Now, you almost never see a bad one.
Work2shoot
06-26-11, 21:35
It might have been shared here already, but a dealer online is selling 556s for $995! I remember when they used to be so much more and it got me to thinking....at a sub 1000$ price point, would you take this over a similarly priced S&W?
The AR is much higher now that it was in the mid-60's. The big bugaboo for the AR in that study was the disconnector. Likely a bad lot in the test rifles.
Now, you almost never see a bad one.
They broke 37 disconnectors and 225 parts total from 142 rifles and 517,639 rounds fired from those rifles. I think that saying they all had a bad batch of disconnectors is quite clearly not so true. I would be more worried about the bolts, cam pin, firing pin, carrier key and some of the other parts listed. I wouldn't really count parts like the one stock that broke as important, because those parts are different in the M16A2, but things like bolts are not -- so I believe the test does have some merit.
The AK's were not new rifles as well. I believe the PDF states the colt rifles and M16s were new.
I have not seen an AK that needed an extractor either just to be fair.
The DP 28 did not have any parts failures(~40k rounds in 3 rifles), but that doesn't really mean that I want one!:lol:
Ferris2son
06-26-11, 22:53
The SIG 556 is much like the HK MR556 and ACR - they could have been so much more with what appears to be a little extra effort. We all love the rifles they were based on for various reasons but we just can't get those exact rifles. So when we get the 556s we end up disappointed and can't fathom why the company would go to all the trouble to get a production line set up, then stop shy of producing what we REALLY wanted. SIG could have built the 556 to 550 specs and it would likely have been a $2000+ gun but that would land it square in the company of the SCARs and MR556s - but people would have paid the money because that is what they wanted...
Spooky
Good point. We'd all like to see SigUSA produce the premier weapons the name invokes. But SigUSA has determined our market is different.
As Templar noted, his sources report lots of issues with the 556. And because he is a recognized authority, that feedback permiates the forums. I wanted to share my experience with my round counts.
Heavy Metal
06-26-11, 22:54
They broke 37 disconnectors and 225 parts total from 142 rifles and 517,639 rounds fired from those rifles. I think that saying they all had a bad batch of disconnectors is quite clearly not so true. I would be more worried about the bolts, cam pin, firing pin, carrier key and some of the other parts listed. I wouldn't really count parts like the one stock that broke as important, because those parts are different in the M16A2, but things like bolts are not -- so I believe the test does have some merit.
The AK's were not new rifles as well. I believe the PDF states the colt rifles and M16s were new.
I have not seen an AK that needed an extractor either just to be fair.
The DP 28 did not have any parts failures(~40k rounds in 3 rifles), but that doesn't really mean that I want one!:lol:
Most of the breakages were disconnectors and firing pin retaining pins.
48 Retainer Pins (I assume this is the FP retaining pin)
37 Disconnectors
20 Ejector Springs
I wonder if they ment extractor springs. I have seen scant few ejector springs fail.
And 37 Disconnectors from 142 rifles sounds like a bad lot to me. That is way too many for that number. And remember all rifles likely did not all have parts fromt he same lots.
Most of the breakages were disconnectors and firing pin retaining pins.
48 Retainer Pins (I assume this is the FP retaining pin)
37 Disconnectors
20 Ejector Springs
I wonder if they ment extractor springs. I have seen scant few ejector springs fail.
And 37 Disconnectors from 142 rifles sounds like a bad lot to me. That is way too many for that number. And remember all rifles likely did not all have parts from the same lots.
I do not think any of the colt rifles had broken a disconnector. I guess the M16A1s tested were from FN and not colt judging by how the PDF reads because they test the colt ARs separately. 120 were M16A1s and 22 were colt rifles, so it could just be luck. They did not count all the extractor springs, each rifle was allowed one extractor spring per the PDF.
Personally, I would much rather have them just adopt the Scar-H. My object is not to try to say the AK is perfect, because it is quite dated, but to say that the AR series is not perfect either. The 556 is just an abortion. Hopefully in this next election we can get a president that will not shit all over the constitution by only enforcing the laws he wants to, and by trying to suggest we follow laws congress has refused to pass. I want to see more of the good importable rifles imported. Why cant we get the 553? Idiots.
MountainRaven
06-27-11, 01:33
I don't believe FN ever made any M16A1s. I'm pretty sure they have only made M16A4s.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
karmapolice
06-27-11, 08:18
back in 06 I saw more than a few FNH A2s, I don't know about A1s though.
I don't believe FN ever made any M16A1s. I'm pretty sure they have only made M16A4s.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
FN has made M16A2s, M16A3s, and M16A4s.
back in 06 I saw more than a few FNH A2s, I don't know about A1s though.
FNH doesn't make M16s, they are made by FNMI.
Heavy Metal
06-27-11, 10:07
I do not think any of the colt rifles had broken a disconnector. I guess the M16A1s tested were from FN and not colt judging by how the PDF reads because they test the colt ARs separately. 120 were M16A1s and 22 were colt rifles, so it could just be luck. They did not count all the extractor springs, each rifle was allowed one extractor spring per the PDF.
The test was conducted in the mid-60's.
FN made none of them.
I don't believe FN ever made any M16A1s. I'm pretty sure they have only made M16A4s.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
I have seen M16A2s, but no A1s.
Magic_Salad0892
06-27-11, 13:15
I have a hard time seeing a test from the 1960's as a viable test now.
Things have changed.
Cincinnatus
06-27-11, 13:37
So pretty please with sugar, reread my OP as a good report on the rifle from someone who has used one, a lot, and never had to worry about ammo, springs/buffers matching pressures or anything that most of the posts on this forum are all about.
It just runs and runs.
Thanks.
:suicide2:
Steyr's whole point is that 1300 rounds is NOT " a lot." Furthermore, your sample of one pales in comparison to the numerous instances of Sigs shitting the bed in carbine classes, etc.
charmcitycop
06-27-11, 14:43
.......
Heavy Metal
06-27-11, 15:38
FNMI made some transitional rifles M-16A1E1's I think they were called. A1 upper with a deflector and a 1/7 light profile 20 inch barrel and A2 Handguards.
I had one in my armory in the early 90's. I lusted for it in fact. I think it replaced one that got ran over by a 113 IIRC.
They did not make them in the Mid 60's, however, so there were none in the above-mentioned study.
There was a company in Florida (I think) called Balimoy who made M16A1 receivers only.
Those were M16A2 lowers.
FNMI made some transitional rifles M-16A1E1's I think they were called. A1 upper with a deflector and a 1/7 light profile 20 inch barrel and A2 Handguards.
You are mistaken. Such a thing does not exist.
Ferris2son
06-27-11, 20:17
:suicide2:
Steyr's whole point is that 1300 rounds is NOT " a lot." Furthermore, your sample of one pales in comparison to the numerous instances of Sigs shitting the bed in carbine classes, etc.
According to Steyr's post, 1300 rounds without maintenance exceeds Swiss specs. The spec says clean and lube every 1000, and I doubt they were shooting steel cased ammo which fouls the chamber and no doubt caused me to end my test when I did.
When I said 'a lot' I was referring to my 5000+ round count behind the rifle. No one here has yet to say "I have one with X rounds through it". It's "reports of this, reports of that". I posted a report of a rifle with significant round count. When you can do the same, post. Otherwise, quiet time!.:suicide2:
Heavy Metal
06-27-11, 20:31
You are mistaken. Such a thing does not exist.
I held it in my hand. It was in my arms room. It existed.
I held it in my hand. It was in my arms room. It existed.
You didn't.
The M16A1E1 was a transitional gun between a M16A1 and M16A2 that only existed in samples and was completely done by Colt 7 or 8 years before FN was even in the picture.
The M16A1E1 doesn't use a lightweight barrel or an A1 upper. It uses a government profile barrel with an A2 upper. The only A1 features on the gun are the lower, stock, and grip.
Heavy Metal
06-27-11, 22:08
I may be mistaken about the exact designation but I know some things for certain.
1) The lower was A2 pattern but marked as an M16A1.
2) FN was stamped on the lower and the barrel was stamped FNMI 1/7
3) The upper was similar to the Canadian uppers. It had A1 sights but the a2's brass deflector
You can believe it or not but belief is your problem, no mine. It's existance is not predicated on your belief or lack therof.
Mabey Direct Support cobbled it together from FN parts but is was substantially an FN M16A1.
As for subguns yes they are obsolete. There time has come and gone. Basically there is nothing they can do that can't be done as well or better by a compact 5.56 carbine or assault rifle. The main failing of the subgun being the pistol ammo they fire vs the rifle ammo of the 5.56.
5.56mm short barrels rifles are unbelievably loud. For this reason, 9mm subguns like the MP5 still had a purpose. Now though, with the 300 AAC BLACKOUT, you can have rifle ballistics with a lower sound level.
So subguns are finally obsolete, but not because of 5.56mm. I know. I have a Micro Galil and a Sig 552. They are horrific to shoot.
I have a Micro Galil and a Sig 552. They are horrific to shoot.
I have to respectfully disagree. I have a 552 and run various 10.5 inch AR/M4 type rifles and really don't find them to be bad with proper hearing protection so long as one is not shooting indoors, and then it is more a concussion/pressure issue than a noise level issue. In fact my 10.5 inch M16 is very pleasant with a suppressor attached. I have yet to shoot my 552 suppressed because you guys (AAC) don't make a 14x1mm LH threaded AAC Blackout mount. And on that note, could you please convince whoever needs convincing to do a run of these?
I have an AAC mount on my 552, and you only get about 15dB reduction, so it is not a good platform to suppress. You still need hearing protection. It is better for you to stay with the AR.
And on that note, could you please convince whoever needs convincing to do a run of these?
We usually do oddball thread mounts when someone places an order for a significant number of them. Mike Smith would know if we have any.
I have an AAC mount on my 552, and you only get about 15dB reduction, so it is not a good platform to suppress. You still need hearing protection. It is better for you to stay with the AR.
Agreed. Subsonic ammunition is needed in order to really suppress a weapon. The Russians solved the submachinegun/suppression need by using the 9x39mm. It fires a subsonic 260gr 9mm bullet that has enough sectional density to punch through most light armor......especially in the penetrator format.
Either way, micro sized, or PDW weapons will always have an appeal to second line troops, vehicle operators such as tankers and other equipment that has cramped portals, and security forces. However, with the proliferation of body armor, you're more likely to see PDW calibers rather than SMG pistol calibers. PDWs are very controllable, and much easier to handle in full auto mode. If the effectiveness of the ammunition can be improved, we'll probably see a lot more adoption of them.
My answer to 9x39:
http://img863.imageshack.us/img863/8613/krink30002edtxtsmall.jpg
Alaskapopo
07-02-11, 09:19
5.56mm short barrels rifles are unbelievably loud. For this reason, 9mm subguns like the MP5 still had a purpose. Now though, with the 300 AAC BLACKOUT, you can have rifle ballistics with a lower sound level.
So subguns are finally obsolete, but not because of 5.56mm. I know. I have a Micro Galil and a Sig 552. They are horrific to shoot.
Got news for you guns are loud use electronic hearing protection and yes compact 5.56 carbines have made subguns obsolete. There are also these nifty things called suppressors.
Pat
And short 5.56mm rifles are louder-er.
You need double hearing protection for short 5.56mm rifles. If you have a suppressor, you still need single hearing protection - which you don't on a subgun.
Besides, bystanders are not wearing hearing protection.
So they still have this major disadvantage compared to subguns or 300 AAC BLACKOUT.
Alaskapopo
07-02-11, 10:51
And short 5.56mm rifles are louder-er.
You need double hearing protection for short 5.56mm rifles. If you have a suppressor, you still need single hearing protection - which you don't on a subgun.
Besides, bystanders are not wearing hearing protection.
So they still have this major disadvantage compared to subguns or 300 AAC BLACKOUT.
Actually you don't need double protection when using them for real just the electronic will do. Also some bystanders losing a little hearing is way down the list on important things to consider in real life.
Pat
If I have to shoot inside my house I don't consider my kid's hearing way down my list of priorities. But yeah, all non suppressed guns are loud and none are great for bystanders, but 5.56mm on an SBR is on the extreme end. They are about 4x louder than 9mm.
Electronic hearing protection does not have more sound reduction than non electronic.
Alaskapopo
07-02-11, 11:29
If I have to shoot inside my house I don't consider my kid's hearing way down my list of priorities. But yeah, all non suppressed guns are loud and none are great for bystanders, but 5.56mm on an SBR is on the extreme end. They are about 4x louder than 9mm.
Electronic hearing protection does not have more sound reduction than non electronic.
True but I have not had a problem to date in training inside of shoot houses. Its not 4x as loud. The decible rating is no where near that high.
Pat
http://www.tacticaloperations.com/swatjun2001/index.html
11 dB louder. So I was incorrect saying 4x - it is really just a bit over 2x as loud.
Don't forget the primary reason why suppressors have gained military use......to hide the audio signature of a weapon from the enemy. 5.56 doesn't do this too well.....especially in shorter barrels.
My answer to 9x39:
http://img863.imageshack.us/img863/8613/krink30002edtxtsmall.jpg
Details Rob, details. Can you discuss the 9x39mm cartridge? Why does it use the 5.45x39 vs. the 7.62x39 magazine?
Heavy Metal
07-02-11, 19:23
9x39mm is the Russian suppressed round.
Details Rob, details. Can you discuss the 9x39mm cartridge? Why does it use the 5.45x39 vs. the 7.62x39 magazine?
Russian equivalent to the 300 Whisper. High momentum, high sectional density bullet fired at subsonic speeds. It is basically a 7.62x39 necked up to a 9mm bullet.
9x39mm is the Russian suppressed round.
Okay, that's right, I completely forgot about that. Small Arms Review had a nice review of the 9x39 weapons platforms in use with the Rukies.
Russian equivalent to the 300 Whisper. High momentum, high sectional density bullet fired at subsonic speeds. It is basically a 7.62x39 necked up to a 9mm bullet.
Bit more than that, ie. you can make 7,62x39 to do everything that .300 whisper does.
9x39 uses bullets weight of 16,8g and have seen ball and AP in my own hand, plus as far as I know they don´t make any supersonic loads for the caliper...
My answer to 9x39:
http://img863.imageshack.us/img863/8613/krink30002edtxtsmall.jpg
Finally something to do with SLR-106URs! :)
Bit more than that, ie. you can make 7,62x39 to do everything that .300 whisper does.
No you can't....
1. You can't shoot 7.62x39mm with a normal full-strength AR bolt.
2. You can't make 7.62x39mm work well in normal AR magazines (same issue 7.62x40mm has).
3. You can't shoot common 308 bullets in it.
4. You can't shoot subsonic and supersonic in the same gun and the same gas-port size as the case capacity is too large (same issue 7.62x40mm has).
I don't do wildcats so before 300 AAC BLACKOUT was a standard, and I had to consider Whisper(R) vs 7.62x39mm, I went 7.62x39mm. It was massive fail in an AR.
http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/3764/dsc00339uf.jpg
http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/500/2nrleys.jpg
http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/3888/91421359.jpg
http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/6642/p1080644.jpg
http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/3648/wtfap.jpg
http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/5544/vsk94rs.jpg
No you can't....
1. You can't shoot 7.62x39mm with a normal full-strength AR bolt.
2. You can't make 7.62x39mm work well in normal AR magazines (same issue 7.62x40mm has).
3. You can't shoot common 308 bullets in it.
4. You can't shoot subsonic and supersonic in the same gun and the same gas-port size as the case capacity is too large (same issue 7.62x40mm has)
It was massive fail in an AR.
Point 1. So what I ´m shooting AK or Sako 92 so its not problem
Point 2. Again use mags that fit round, there are quite few that feed 7,62x39 even in AR, but sticking with AK ones make it easy.
Point 3. Funny, used to load my IPSC rifle major rounds with 200gr LAPUA Scenars, they are .308 and hit were they were aimed at and functioned as good as any AK factory round (note thought my handloads used Finnish military brass with berdan primers, it`s brass not a steel).
Point 4. Uh. don´t know Powders you use, but used/use my self VV
N133, about 1 g for subsonic and 1,50 g for rifle major, same military brass, different amount powder and same bullet for both.
Maybe major fail in AR, but neat thing in a AK.
Althought both loads have quite rainbow trajocteries
With subsonic load AK/Sako 92 will load itself, with that load, brass flyes couple meters. Action noise is about 100db so its not noiseles.
Uses same unmodified gas hole for factory ammo and subsonics/ major loads. Can I use is made by BR tuote of joensuu Finland
Sounds like fun. Someone should make amo like that and sell it at a decent price. AK barrels are not really fast twist though. But one could make one.
Point 4. Uh. don´t know Powders you use, but used/use my self VV
N133, about 1 g for subsonic and 1,50 g for rifle major, same military brass, different amount powder and same bullet for both.
I am surprised N133 works for subsonic to cycle an AK.
I'm pretty sure an AK is massively over gassed by AR standards.
You guys have strayed, massively, off of the reservation.
How about starting a new thread?
Dirtyboy333
07-05-11, 04:22
This new 556 "looks" cool but I can't imagine buying one since I already have a 556. Now if it was Swiss it would be a no-brainer but it seems to just be a US gun with (maybe?) a Swiss stock.
While on the subject, I just wanna ad that I bought my 556 after almost a year of research and possibly reading through every 556 bashing thread that is in existence. I took a risk but I got lucky and received a flawless gun (tightest upper/lower I've ever seen, solid straight rail, no trunion issues, perfect finish etc.). My rifle collection isn't large but I own 2 AR's a DD/BCM, Norinco AK and an all original matching type 1 M1 Car. The more I shot the 556 it quickly became my favorite rifle bc not surprisingly it eats everything, shoots the smoothest/softest and is extremely accurate with heavy loads. I don't have a huge amount of rounds through it but as of now, I would have no issue with it being my #1 in a HD or SHTF senario (but not the day in/out abuse in the military) mainly because I trust the op system.
So, with that said I'm still more eager than ever to own a true Swiss 55x.
In my novice opinion the op system and barrel seem to be solid. So, I wanna ask you 55x experts (Steyr, JoshNC etc.) if you ignore the known furniture and rail issues, how in you opinion does the 556 op system and barrel compare to the 55x in terms of overall quality, reliability etc??? I know most of you that own a swiss gun also own(ed) a 556 and some have even used 556 op parts in conversions so your opinions have ALOT of value. Again, I'm strictly speaking of the "meat & potatoes" of the gun not all of the other pathetic parts of the gun the Sig screwed up.
Thanks
Is this going to be an offering by Sig or is it a distributor limited model for cdnn?
tombirdman
07-10-11, 19:12
Wow ! Just how many times is SIG going to try and "reinvent" the same rifle ? What's going on at SIG ? Nobody home ?
:shout::shout::shout:
I have an early {JS00883X} 556 SWAT.
Since I have an EO TECH with magnifier, I changed the charging handle, changed the front pivot pin, removed the funky flashlight.
Other than those items I've done nothing and like the rifle. Paid enough for it back in those days.
I've got no complaint. Good design. Works well.
Also have a Beretta AR70 = sme idea. They had a seperation with Sig in the development stage. Like them both.
Apparently there were were periods when Sig totally screwed them up. Shoddy workmanship, design, cutting corners, etc.
You wouldn't think SIG would want to commit suicide but they have.
They aren't gertting go0verment pistol contracts etc.
WHAT A SHAME !!!
POOR MANAGEMENT AND PHILOSOPHY !
HOW YOU GOING TPO GET IT BACK AFTER YOU LOSE IT AND THEY HAVE ! :confused::confused::confused:
NRA's American Rifleman has a video of the new SIG 551-A1 in action with SIG Armorer at NRA HQ:
https://www.facebook.com/video...95586386942&comments
"A quick video from Sig Sauer's visit to NRA HQ spotlighting the new SIG551A1, soon to be available in the U.S."
"A quick video from Sig Sauer's visit to NRA HQ spotlighting the new SIG551A1, soon to be available in the U.S."
Cleverly worded bullshit. It implies this gun is from Switzerland when it originated from sig in New Hampshire along with all their other garbage.
Dirtyboy333
07-11-11, 22:25
Cleverly worded bullshit. It implies this gun is from Switzerland when it originated from sig in New Hampshire along with all their other garbage.
Yeah, that is some bullshit. "soon to be available in the U.S."-Well i guess u could say ANY new domestic product is "soon to be available in the U.S." but it doesnt mean it was ever available anywhere else. Sneaky marketing for the people who dont know better.
So, not that im really excited bc it just going to be a 556, has any1 bought or know somebody that has bought one yet?
I called CDNN this morning... just got off the phone with them.
This is what I was told: Not quite available to ship yet. The rifles are in the system but they are waiting on an invoice to hit before they can list a price. Should be sometime this week.
The rifle will come with one 20rd and one 30rd.
For clarification the barrel is 16" according to Steve at CDNN.
Depending on what the price point is I'll be buying one. While I've been happy with my Sig pistols(I have a couple of late 90s 226 and a 229) I've never had a Sig rifle. I'm moving to a town right close to Exeter, NH in a month or so if something is wrong with this rifle I'll just walk it on over to them in person.
If the price point is acceptable, I will get one. If I get one, I will do a full write up on it after I send it through the ringer a little bit.
***edit: I guess I should have watched the video but for some reason the link kept telling me it was unavailable until I went to American Rifleman's facebook page.... oh well... looks... fun.
Dirtyboy333
07-12-11, 20:33
I called CDNN this morning... just got off the phone with them.
This is what I was told: Not quite available to ship yet. The rifles are in the system but they are waiting on an invoice to hit before they can list a price. Should be sometime this week.
The rifle will come with one 20rd and one 30rd.
For clarification the barrel is 16" according to Steve at CDNN.
Depending on what the price point is I'll be buying one. While I've been happy with my Sig pistols(I have a couple of late 90s 226 and a 229) I've never had a Sig rifle. I'm moving to a town right close to Exeter, NH in a month or so if something is wrong with this rifle I'll just walk it on over to them in person.
If the price point is acceptable, I will get one. If I get one, I will do a full write up on it after I send it through the ringer a little bit.
***edit: I guess I should have watched the video but for some reason the link kept telling me it was unavailable until I went to American Rifleman's facebook page.... oh well... looks... fun.
Hey thanks for the info.....BTW i own 3 Sig USA products and ive been more than pleased with them. If i didn't already have a good 556 i would be buying this one since i probably cant afford a real one. Sometimes i just get tired of their marketing strategies.
variablebinary
07-23-11, 20:23
A few of these have popped up on gunbroker.
It still looks like SIG USA doing SIG USA nonsense.
Is it really that hard to add sights actually made for the gun, and a proper Swiss spec handguard?
If nothing else, for your DIY project lovers, this gets you a few steps closer in your efforts
http://pics.gunbroker.com/GB/243148000/243148208/pix286515743.jpg
http://pics.gunbroker.com/GB/243148000/243148208/pix003386944.jpg
http://pics.gunbroker.com/GB/243148000/243148208/pix974785344.jpg
A few of these have popped up on gunbroker.
It still looks like SIG USA doing SIG USA nonsense.
Is it really that hard to add sights actually made for the gun, and a proper Swiss spec handguard?
If nothing else, for your DIY project lovers, this gets you a few steps closer in your efforts
Sig Sauer USA still has its head where the daylight doesn't shine. Those same crappy made in China potmetal sights, the absolutely ridiculous muzzle device, the cheesy bolted-on optic rail, and non-Swiss handguard. As a company they are a ship at sea with no sail or rudder.
Dirtyboy333
07-24-11, 02:43
Spoke to a SIG CS rep on friday and he seemed like a pretty knowledgeable one (but who knows???).
Just to confirm i asked if the stock was genuine Swiss and he said it was. More interestingly, he said that the stocks will be sold individually to 556 owners in the very near future (no pricing). Hopefully this will bring the price down from the "stranglehold" CGS has on the market. Lastly, the rep also said that they are planning to offer the 551A1 lowers for individual sale but he made it a point to make sure i knew that it was not guaranteed. Hopefully they will offer them in black so people wont have to refinish their whole gun. Theres probably not much interest in buying the lower because its still not Swiss and rakes expensive mags. Although, I might consider it just for "looks" if its decently priced around $250 or so. $250 sounds like alot for a lower but CGS charges $700 for a standard stripped 556 lower.
Oh, I also asked if this is a limited run of the 551A1 and he said their "testing the waters" for now and are considering adding it to their product line.
Again, this is just info i got off of a Sig US rep.
Someone on the sig556 forum received one and it came with the wrong flash hider, the M16 style from the 556. He complained to CDNN, who then went to their warehouse and opened up new 551-A1 boxes and discovered others were also shipped with the wrong FH...
:eek:
I can hear Gomer Pyle's voice, "Surprise, surprise, surprise!"
I am jack's lack of surprise.
Someone on the sig556 forum received one and it came with the wrong flash hider, the M16 style from the 556. He complained to CDNN, who then went to their warehouse and opened up new 551-A1 boxes and discovered others were also shipped with the wrong FH...
:eek:
I can hear Gomer Pyle's voice, "Surprise, surprise, surprise!"
Lol..although, I'm not completely surprised...:D
Lol..although, I'm not completely surprised...:DANYTHING SIG sells must be verified in person before believing, they have switcherood more stuff than any other manufacturer I know of. Just because they photo shows one thing doesn't mean that's what your gonna get...
More of the same, I'm afraid...
Moose-Knuckle
08-31-11, 03:44
ROTFLMFAO. . . . :lol:
Thanks SIG, I needed the chuckle!
First SIGUSA's company board began being run by chimpanzees and now it looks like it has filtered down to monkey's running the assembly line as well.....
I am a novice at all of this, and yet even I a poorly informed yet (I think) sentient being is puzzled at what attracts customers to this SIG rifle other than ignorance?
I am a novice at all of this, and yet even I a poorly informed yet (I think) sentient being is puzzled at what attracts customers to this SIG rifle other than ignorance?
In my experience, a lot of the attraction to Sig's current lineup is because they are shiny. :dirol:
centurian9126
09-10-11, 20:19
I could be wrong here but, this looks like the lower that comes on the 556r. Could it not take ak74 mags that have been modified to accept 5.56 rounds? That would negate the 50.00 and up sig 550 mags. I wonder how close or how far apart the specs are between these two magazines.
A new owner of a 551-A1 in WA posted this in a review on TOS:
After about 15-20 mag changes the mag release lever doesn't latch the mags in on its own. I have to physically pull the lever back to lock the mag in.
:rolleyes:
I'm not super into the "retro" guns and would take a 556 classic over this new (old) model. I have my 8th and 9th 556's headed my way. I sure hope they are as reliable as the first 7.
A new owner of a 551-A1 in WA posted this in a review on TOS:
Is anyone really surprised? It isn't a Swiss lower, it's just another piece of crap coming out of Exeter.
lloydkristmas
09-17-11, 00:03
At the rate this company is sodomizing its customers, we will be seeing less "Sig vs HK which is better??" and more "Sig or Taurus help me pick!" threads
****ing disgraceful
bondmid003
09-17-11, 12:54
At the rate this company is sodomizing its customers, we will be seeing less "Sig vs HK which is better??" and more "Sig or Taurus help me pick!" threads
****ing disgraceful
I'll have to disagree with you at least partially. My P226 is a superb handgun and I have never had a single malfunction. I will agree with you about their rifle quality however.
I'll have to disagree with you at least partially. My P226 is a superb handgun and I have never had a single malfunction. I will agree with you about their rifle quality however.
I have been told the newer sig's quality will vary greatly especially on the "stock" models. I am sticking to older German made models for now until I hear better things about SIGUSA's QC....it is a shame too because SIG used to be held to the same high regard as Glock and HK (although I have also been hearing mixed reviews on Gen4 Glocks). Guess that is going to happen when you Kimberize Sig...
It's those stupid dual spring guide rods that are causing all the problems in newer glocks. The flimsy design of the rod causes more problems than the fact they were running .40 cal springs for a while. Which is a shame, because the Gen4 has the best ergonomics of the glock lineup since Gen2. Glock is completely tubing their reputation, same as SIG.
I would not buy a SIG unless it had "made in germany" on it, better yet "made in west germany".
Speaking of Sig handguns, I just got a shipment of 30 agency P232s about a month ago. The agency configuration that we ordered was black finish, siglight night sights, sig rubber grips, and three magazines.
Right out of the box, I could see some quality control issues.
The Slide: Some of them had bare metal shinning through the finish around milled cuts on the slide such as the charging serrations. I assume there might have been debris stuck in between the cuts before they were coated. Almost all of them still had a chunk of loose steel that fell out of the hole for the front sight. During firing, this chunk would have fallen into the pistol and could have really scared up the internals especially the alloy frame.
The Controls: All of them have cutting variations, and bare metal shinning through patches in the finish. The leading edge of the decocking lever is also rather sharp and hasn't been smoothed out.
The Recoil Spring: They are all flatenned on the ends, but they weren't touched up to make sure that they didn't have sharp edges. Most of the barrels were scratched to hell from those sharp ends. We're talking about deep gouges. I had to smooth all of springs out myself.
The Magazines: There were three different mixmatched types in the shipment. Once had a dimple on both sides for the case rim of the second cartridge in the mag to prevent it from riding forward......just like the P220 .45acp has. The other design has a full cutout instead of a dimple, and there was lots of careless grind marks around the cutouts and lots of bare metal showing. The last type is the mag with no dimples. Given that each pistol was shipped with mix matched magazines, you'd think Sig would have at least standardized it a bit. The cutout mags look awful.
All I did when I received the pistols was address any blaringly obvious issues, correct them, and then do an initial cleaning before they were issued out. So far, they all seem to be running fine in the hands of officers, but no one has exceeded 500rds on their P232s. The real test will see how they hold up on the long run.
There is no doubt in my mind that the quality of Sig pistols pistols seem to be getting worse with each passing year. We get new guns in every 2-3 years, so I see shipments of anywhere from a dozen to 100 guns at a time. There is a lot of talk within the DOI that we will likely be considering transitioning to something else as 2012 represents 20yrs of Sig use. Mostly because Sig doesn't offer a reliable modular platform with a viable BUG alternative with identical manual of arms and uses duty pistol magazines.........but also due to the quality issues we have been seeing.
Belmont31R
09-17-11, 18:14
I think at this point in time its foolish to risk that kind of money on an Exeter Sig product. They have shown they don't care what condition they send stuff out even to agency purchases for LEO's. Too many other brands to mess around with the junk they are sending out, and especially for the price point. I think its not unreasonable to pay $800 for a handgun but there better not be widespread issues, and a general lack of caring about whats being sent out. Everyone has lemons for whatever reason. Its not a lemon when its widespread and when quality has fallen off the charts across the board. A name like SIG deserves better than what those people up there are sending out these days.
SPARTAN HOPLITE ARMS
11-02-11, 22:00
I think at this point in time its foolish to risk that kind of money on an Exeter Sig product. They have shown they don't care what condition they send stuff out even to agency purchases for LEO's. Too many other brands to mess around with the junk they are sending out, and especially for the price point. I think its not unreasonable to pay $800 for a handgun but there better not be widespread issues, and a general lack of caring about whats being sent out. Everyone has lemons for whatever reason. Its not a lemon when its widespread and when quality has fallen off the charts across the board. A name like SIG deserves better than what those people up there are sending out these days.
Why does Cohen still have a job anywhere in the firearms industry? :help:
MilitaryArms
11-02-11, 23:02
Cohen has a job because he delivers results. He steps into companies with high cost products and glowing reputations. He then reduces the production costs drastically while maintaining the high market price for the products which causes profits to skyrocket. The boards love him. That is, until the masses figure out the quality is in the crapper and they're getting a low quality replacement at full market price and sales start to suffer.
It can take years before the loyal customers turn on the manufacturer, if they ever do. I wish I had a dollar for every post I've read of late extolling the quality of Sig products made by people who really should know better.
The same thing happened with Kimber. There were people standing in line to buy their poorly made high dollar 1911s. Their reputation, albeit bad among 1911 gurus, was still sterling among the armature 1911 folks despite their numerous quality issues that cropped up under Cohen reign. Cohen somehow stretches the brand image for quality out while manufacturing poor quality products and manages to increase sales and profits. He's a rain maker.
As long as he lands in companies with a loyal customer base and that have a reputation for quality... He will continue to do his (black) magic it seems.
Cohen has a job because he delivers results. He steps into companies with high cost products and glowing reputations. He then reduces the production costs drastically while maintaining the high market price for the products which causes profits to skyrocket. The boards love him. That is, until the masses figure out the quality is in the crapper and they're getting a low quality replacement at full market price and sales start to suffer.
It can take years before the loyal customers turn on the manufacturer, if they ever do. I wish I had a dollar for every post I've read of late extolling the quality of Sig products made by people who really should know better.
The same thing happened with Kimber. There were people standing in line to buy their poorly made high dollar 1911s. Their reputation, albeit bad among 1911 gurus, was still sterling among the armature 1911 folks despite their numerous quality issues that cropped up under Cohen reign. Cohen somehow stretches the brand image for quality out while manufacturing poor quality products and manages to increase sales and profits. He's a rain maker.
As long as he lands in companies with a loyal customer base and that have a reputation for quality... He will continue to do his (black) magic it seems.
This is spot on. The number of people on various other forums who praise the 556 is nauseating. This includes statements suggesting the 556 is equivalent to the Swiss 55x series.
This is spot on. The number of people on various other forums who praise the 556 is nauseating. This includes statements suggesting the 556 is equivalent to the Swiss 55x series.
Unfortunately, thanks to the 89 ban, most in this country have never even seen or held a true Swiss Sig or they would definately know the difference. The 556 reciever is built fairly solid (like the 55X series) but the lower and sub-contracted internal parts are not. Ironicly if SUGUSA would just build their rifles like WCA did to those "discovered" 551's they may have a decent rifle to sell...
Meta-Prometheus
06-03-13, 02:11
After the whole gas port issue we've seen I wouldn't trust one even if the configuration was 100% Swiss "style."
I'm glad I took the time to read through this thread. SteyrAUG's input has only reinforced my suspicions. Those suspicions are basically that I'm going to have to get a pre-ban or one of Mike's post-ban rifles to truly get what I'm looking for.
My only problem now is to decide between a Galil or a 551-2sp. Decisions, decisions...
I'm glad I took the time to read through this thread. SteyrAUG's input has only reinforced my suspicions. Those suspicions are basically that I'm going to have to get a pre-ban or one of Mike's post-ban rifles to truly get what I'm looking for.
My only problem now is to decide between a Galil or a 551-2sp. Decisions, decisions...
Personally that is an easy decision - I would choose the 551-2 over the Galil. The Swiss made 55x is just such a fantastic rifle. A Swiss AK with the best iron sights of any modern autoloading rifle. It is the Rolex of 5.56mm rifles.
I recommend you buy one of Mike Otte's 551-2SP. I think he will even sell you one that has been re-SBRd. I would also recommend picking up some spare parts now while demilled kits are still available and reasonably priced. It would be a good idea to have a few spare barrels, bolts, gas pistons, return springs, and other small parts if you plan to shoot it much.
It was not that long ago when parts and kits for the 55x series were nearly non-existent. The flood of demilled ex-PD fullauto 551s and 552s have caused the market to be flush with parts. But there are only so many guns to cut into parts kits. Buy your spares now, because one day they will be far more scarce and far more costly.
Josh - Can you shoot me a couple of links or just give me the names of the companies currently selling the SIG kits? I know long mountian used to, but I've been a bit out of the loop and don't even know where to look right now.
thanks!!
Josh - Can you shoot me a couple of links or just give me the names of the companies currently selling the SIG kits? I know long mountian used to, but I've been a bit out of the loop and don't even know where to look right now.
thanks!!
Mike Otte has a few, I believe. Also look on Sturmgewehr and Gunbroker, there have been a few folks selling parts kits. Adam Weber at HKParts.net may also have some.
Meta-Prometheus
06-03-13, 17:31
Personally that is an easy decision - I would choose the 551-2 over the Galil. The Swiss made 55x is just such a fantastic rifle. A Swiss AK with the best iron sights of any modern autoloading rifle. It is the Rolex of 5.56mm rifles.
I recommend you buy one of Mike Otte's 551-2SP. I think he will even sell you one that has been re-SBRd. I would also recommend picking up some spare parts now while demilled kits are still available and reasonably priced. It would be a good idea to have a few spare barrels, bolts, gas pistons, return springs, and other small parts if you plan to shoot it much.
It was not that long ago when parts and kits for the 55x series were nearly non-existent. The flood of demilled ex-PD fullauto 551s and 552s have caused the market to be flush with parts. But there are only so many guns to cut into parts kits. Buy your spares now, because one day they will be far more scarce and far more costly.
Ugh, why can't Sig-USA just make something right so I don't have to spend $5,000 on a gun and $2,000 on a spare parts kit!
Meta have you handled and ran an american made SIG rifle? Yeah there has been some issues a couple of years ago about the gas port...I myself bought a patrol carbine and it was a one shot rifle out of the box. I called SIG they emailed me a shipping label I sent it in and when I got it back it ran great..I have about 1500 rds through it without any failures...I have SIG 556P with about 2K rounds through it and have never had one issue with it...it runs like an AK... I love shooting my SIGs and most of my friends once they've shot one feel the same way. I don't like the crappy forearms and the adjustable buttstock..they feel cheap. I bought the SAN buttstock for my patrol carbine and it's tight locks up great and make the rifle feel totally different. I also bought one of the 551A1 complete lowers that SIG offered about 18mos ago for about 320.00 w/2 SAN 30rd mags...both the AR and the 551A1 lowers run fine. the internals of the 551A1 lower switch over to the SAN 550 lowers...soo like I've said before. most of the people posting about these rifles don't have or shoot them. I have a colt 6920 and a bushy AR..I could tell the difference between the two as soon as I shot the 6920...the 6920 felt so much better in the trigger..it was smoother and had more snap to it. I switch my semi BCG for an F/A larue BCG that had been ceracoated and now my bushy feel just as smooth as my Colt..I think the F/A BCG made all the difference. But my SIG rifles feel so much smoother than either of my ARs....of course if the SHTF I'd grab one of my AKs so I guess the whole point in moot. get what you want...but shoot one before you decide. you may be pleasantly surprised.
thanks Josh...I have a 551A1 complete lower I bought from SIG about 18mos ago and have been using it on my patrol carbine, but I've been kicking around the idea of SBRing my pistol and using it, on the other hand I have also thought about buying a swiss SAN lower and just switching everything from the 551A1 lower over....that would be SWISS enough for my tast...oh changing out the plastice tipped charging handle....
Meta have you handled and ran an american made SIG rifle? Yeah there has been some issues a couple of years ago about the gas port...I myself bought a patrol carbine and it was a one shot rifle out of the box. I called SIG they emailed me a shipping label I sent it in and when I got it back it ran great..I have about 1500 rds through it without any failures...I have SIG 556P with about 2K rounds through it and have never had one issue with it...it runs like an AK... I love shooting my SIGs and most of my friends once they've shot one feel the same way. I don't like the crappy forearms and the adjustable buttstock..they feel cheap. I bought the SAN buttstock for my patrol carbine and it's tight locks up great and make the rifle feel totally different. I also bought one of the 551A1 complete lowers that SIG offered about 18mos ago for about 320.00 w/2 SAN 30rd mags...both the AR and the 551A1 lowers run fine. the internals of the 551A1 lower switch over to the SAN 550 lowers...soo like I've said before. most of the people posting about these rifles don't have or shoot them. I have a colt 6920 and a bushy AR..I could tell the difference between the two as soon as I shot the 6920...the 6920 felt so much better in the trigger..it was smoother and had more snap to it. I switch my semi BCG for an F/A larue BCG that had been ceracoated and now my bushy feel just as smooth as my Colt..I think the F/A BCG made all the difference. But my SIG rifles feel so much smoother than either of my ARs....of course if the SHTF I'd grab one of my AKs so I guess the whole point in moot. get what you want...but shoot one before you decide. you may be pleasantly surprised.
I have Swiss 551s, 552, and 553. I also have a few 556s. There is a very significant difference between the Swiss guns and US guns.
Ugh, why can't Sig-USA just make something right so I don't have to spend $5,000 on a gun and $2,000 on a spare parts kit!
Agreed. But I recommend you buy that $5k rifle and be glad you did. Once those are gone, there will be no more.
As for spare parts, you may try contacting one of the vendors on Sturm to just buy the parts you need. Ben at Gatewood Supply in AL sells a bunch of SIG parts on Sturm.
I would buy:
- Two barrels
- Two complete bolt heads
- Two Cocking handles
- One gas valve
- One gas piston
- Two sets of hammer and trigger springs
That should set you back about a grand and is essentially everything you could need for the life of the rifle.
Larry Vickers
06-04-13, 08:42
Life has taught me there are very few exceptions to the rule of 'You get what you pay for'
Certainly the SIG 550 series are examples of that rule - and remember regret will last much longer than the pinch on the pocket book
We all know what the right answer is ; now you just have to do it
'Accept no substitutes'
Meta-Prometheus
06-04-13, 21:24
Agreed. But I recommend you buy that $5k rifle and be glad you did. Once those are gone, there will be no more.
As for spare parts, you may try contacting one of the vendors on Sturm to just buy the parts you need. Ben at Gatewood Supply in AL sells a bunch of SIG parts on Sturm.
I would buy:
- Two barrels
- Two complete bolt heads
- Two Cocking handles
- One gas valve
- One gas piston
- Two sets of hammer and trigger springs
That should set you back about a grand and is essentially everything you could need for the life of the rifle.
Life has taught me there are very few exceptions to the rule of 'You get what you pay for'
Certainly the SIG 550 series are examples of that rule - and remember regret will last much longer than the pinch on the pocket book
We all know what the right answer is ; now you just have to do it
'Accept no substitutes'
Thanks JoshNC! "Accept no substitutes", I don't think it could be said any more clearly!
There are few talked up things in life that actually exceed the hype. The SIG 55x is one of those. I have always heard how great they were but until I got one in hand, I never would have believed it could be better than what it is talked up as.
I am currently working on a detailed review of my 551-2 SP SWAT & 553. There are a number of little things that I have found really stand out with the SIG rifles that for me have been positive that you wouldn't really catch unless you get out & shoot it. I am blown away with the accuracy of my two. I have no doubt the 550 would be a damn good choice in high power competitions.
I cannot stress this enough, if you are one the fence, don't hesitate. For an average guy it's a lot of coin to drop, but they are worth it. Call Mike Otte up & he will take good care of you. They will dwindle on down & eventually be gone. Rest assured, comparing a US vs Swiss gun is like comparing a Hi-Point to a HK. If I had to pick one, I would get the 551-2 SP SWAT. Just an incredible rifle. Very accurate, handy & soft shooting.
Oh & talk about making a man sick. I recently heard of a SIG 550 being sold from an individual to a gun shop in NC for $4500. Execellent condition w/a good number of mags. That would have been a sweet catch.
Having handled 550/551/552 guns and now the 553, I can say that the 553 is the most mature of all the swiss guns, and the one to get, especially considering what they cost.
Most users including the Swiss Army are now purchasing the 553 SB or 553 LB variants. The Swiss also have a new telescoping stock that provides a much reduced length of pull. Durability on the US variants was terrible, but I'm sure that the Swiss versions are actually good.
http://www.sigarms556.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=12035
http://i42.tinypic.com/fx84nq.jpg
http://i42.tinypic.com/25h2653.jpg
http://i42.tinypic.com/16iauu.jpg
Dirtyboy333
06-08-13, 14:27
It's interesting that while they seem to have switched to the collapsible stocks they are still staying with the steel Lower. Has the Swiss military been using the aluminum lower at all to anybody's knowledge?
I would personally still go with the 551 and the longer gas system.
Does anyone know if Armati is planning on importing stripped upper receivers? That would be awesome (if legal)!!!
The pictures shown are not representative for the Swiss Army. The unit shown is AAD10 (10th army long range reconnaissance group) formed from members of reconnaissance and ranger units. Equipment they have access to is limited to this unit and not general issue. That's a unit of 200men compared to 150'000 men of the entire Swiss Army.
The 553SOW is a joint venture project between SIG and the Swiss Army. It’s basically a 552LB converted to the logistic concept of the Swiss Army and to avoid cost for extra spare parts and extra armorer training. It’s much easier also to get a budget from the parliament for a conversion then for a new investment.
What’s been used for the army conversion is rifles from Stgw90 rifles inventory. SAN took the concept and introduced it as SAN SG553 for the commercial market. Retractable stock and aluminum lower are options. If one is going to order an SG553 from SAN, without mentioning any options, he will get a standard folding stock, diopter sight, 10” rifling, short barrel, two position gas valve and steel lower.
Having handled 550/551/552 guns and now the 553, I can say that the 553 is the most mature of all the swiss guns, and the one to get, especially considering what they cost.
Most users including the Swiss Army are now purchasing the 553 SB or 553 LB variants. The Swiss also have a new telescoping stock that provides a much reduced length of pull. Durability on the US variants was terrible, but I'm sure that the Swiss versions are actually good.
About the original Swiss telescoping stock. I did buy one for 551-1 LB and can confirm that those are extremely solid and well made. Actually stock is so good that it makes one to wonder how it's even possible to make something so nice from plastic.
Standard folding stock weights 366 grams and telescoping/folding 452 grams.
Length of pull fully extended is the same as of standard folding stock 33,5 cm. Mid position 31,5 cm and fully closed 29,5 cm.
Plastics did not feel brittle at -26C temp. So far I have opted to stay inside if outside temp is below that :)
And about the price... Well, you won't remember it for long and if the thing you bough makes you smile every time you handle it - I'd say it's well worth the money.
One hint. If you should have any difficulties in reaching the 55X safety lever the German company Nill makes very nice wood grips that will solve that problem. I addition to being much more ergonomic in general.
The pictures shown are not representative for the Swiss Army. The unit shown is AAD10 (10th army long range reconnaissance group) formed from members of reconnaissance and ranger units. Equipment they have access to is limited to this unit and not general issue. That's a unit of 200men compared to 150'000 men of the entire Swiss Army.
The 553SOW is a joint venture project between SIG and the Swiss Army. It’s basically a 552LB converted to the logistic concept of the Swiss Army and to avoid cost for extra spare parts and extra armorer training. It’s much easier also to get a budget from the parliament for a conversion then for a new investment.
What’s been used for the army conversion is rifles from Stgw90 rifles inventory. SAN took the concept and introduced it as SAN SG553 for the commercial market. Retractable stock and aluminum lower are options. If one is going to order an SG553 from SAN, without mentioning any options, he will get a standard folding stock, diopter sight, 10” rifling, short barrel, two position gas valve and steel lower.
I realize they aren't exactly reequipping the entire swiss army with 553's, but new purchases and upgrades are definitely going that direction. I had heard that the machinery for the stamped lowers was now gone and won't be replaced. So when existing stocks are used up, it's going to be all-aluminum from that point forward.
About the original Swiss telescoping stock. I did buy one for 551-1 LB and can confirm that those are extremely solid and well made. Actually stock is so good that it makes one to wonder how it's even possible to make something so nice from plastic.
Standard folding stock weights 366 grams and telescoping/folding 452 grams.
Length of pull fully extended is the same as of standard folding stock 33,5 cm. Mid position 31,5 cm and fully closed 29,5 cm.
Plastics did not feel brittle at -26C temp. So far I have opted to stay inside if outside temp is below that :)
And about the price... Well, you won't remember it for long and if the thing you bough makes you smile every time you handle it - I'd say it's well worth the money.
One hint. If you should have any difficulties in reaching the 55X safety lever the German company Nill makes very nice wood grips that will solve that problem. I addition to being much more ergonomic in general.
They make good stuff, that's for sure.
The Swiss telescoping stock is great. I have them on two of my rifles. I keep them on the shortest LOP. They lock up tight with absolutely no play. I would replace all of my stocks with these if I could find more at reasonable prices.
As for my personal preference for a 55x as an all purpose 5.56 carbine, I would take a 551-2 with optic rail upper, B&T railed fore-end, Aimpoint T1, Swiss folding/collapsing stock.
I love the 553, but I find the 551 handguard length to be better suited to gripping the gun out further. And the 551 gas system is just ever so slightly subjectively smoother than the 553. As a PDW sized 5.56 rifle that rivals my mp5k-pdw, the 553 is great. But if I had to pick just one it would be a 551 short barrel.
The Swiss telescoping stock is great. I have them on two of my rifles. I keep them on the shortest LOP. They lock up tight with absolutely no play. I would replace all of my stocks with these if I could find more at reasonable prices.
The trick is trying to locate them at non-insane prices.
The trick is trying to locate them at non-insane prices.
Occasionally they pop up on Sturm, Subguns and GB at good prices. I picked one and steered a couple buddies into a couple others.
Next time you see one, shoot me a message.
The Swiss telescoping stock is great. I have them on two of my rifles. I keep them on the shortest LOP. They lock up tight with absolutely no play. I would replace all of my stocks with these if I could find more at reasonable prices.
As for my personal preference for a 55x as an all purpose 5.56 carbine, I would take a 551-2 with optic rail upper, B&T railed fore-end, Aimpoint T1, Swiss folding/collapsing stock.
I love the 553, but I find the 551 handguard length to be better suited to gripping the gun out further. And the 551 gas system is just ever so slightly subjectively smoother than the 553. As a PDW sized 5.56 rifle that rivals my mp5k-pdw, the 553 is great. But if I had to pick just one it would be a 551 short barrel.
I have a Short Dot CQB Gen2 mounted just on front of the fixed irons with the Sako Optilock rings. With both rings between turrets and ocular. This way I can get perfect eye relief when running in more squared stance with stock in shortest position and when in prone the fully extended stock gives again a correct eye relief.
Total height from top of receiver to optics centerline is 1.6 in (B&T rail 14mm + Optilock rings 26,5mm). This setup does not give a perfect cheek weld but does provide at least some support.
Higher mount and a Sig cheek rest would be the other option, but I see it more important to have the scope as close as possible to center of gravity so that the feel of otherwise nice carbine would not be totally destroyed.
This is almost the perfect general purpose carbine for me. It really is Aimpoint fast up close and I know that I can hit 8" circle up to 200 yards + silhouette up to 600 yards on demand even from more challenging positions. If I can call the wind. This leads to remaining problem, the 4X scope is just not enough for spotting your own hits and misses at 5-600 yards.
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