Powder question for 9mm

[platoonDaddy]

Using Hodgdon Reload Data Center to get a recipe for my 9mm using FMJ they list WSF, dang it is dirty (at least in my weapon)
http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp

Lyman 49th Edition list the relative burn rate for WSF as #30.

WST is listed #19 but Hodgdon's doesn't have a load recipe for 9mm.

So I then checked out Alliant red & green dot and no recipes for 9mm.

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/RecipeList.aspx?gtypeid=1

As you probably figured out, I am new to reload cartridges and still wading through the quagmire of Powder.

I am using 115gr FMJ (great price from Roze and still have 1K) and of course the 49th edition doesn't have 115gr FMJ listed.

Any links to other powder recipes for 115gr FMJ 9mm?


Edit: corrected typo's

[Boxerglocker]

Using Hodgdon Reload Data Center to get a recipe for my 9mm using FMJ they list WSF, dang it is dirty (at least in my weapon)
http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp

Lyman 49th Edition list the relative burn rate for WSF as #30.

WST is listed #19 but Hodgdon's doesn't have a load recipe for 9mm.

So I then checked out Alliant red & green dot and no recipes for 9mm.

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/RecipeList.aspx?gtypeid=1

As you probably figured out, I am new to reload cartridges and still wading through the quagmire of Powder.

I am using 115gr FMJ (great price from Roze and still have 1K) and of course the 49th edition doesn't have 115gr FMJ listed.

Any links to other powder recipes for 115gr FMJ 9mm?


Edit: corrected typo's

WSF is actually a very good powder for 9mm. You can't load it light though, the incomplete burns will run dirty. What gun and what type of load are you trying to develop? What was the load you used? Do you have access to a chrono?
If you start at the low end and slowly work up to mid range one grain at a time, load 10 at a time to test. You will it find that it will burn more completely thus cleaner.

[epete]

I'm a little confused.

Do you have Winchester WST and WSF and Alliant Red Dot and Green Dot and are looking for recipes for a 115gr 9mm?

Or are you just looking for powder suggestions for 115gr 9mm?

Some powders will have a range that they burn cleaner. I haven't used WSF, but if you can while still staying within the confines of your data, increase your powder charge. This may lessen your fouling.

If you're looking for suggestions, you might try Power Pistol. It meters well and uses enough that you'll overflow the case with a double charge. If you want clean, try Vhita Vuori N320. I've never used a powder that burned that clean, but it is expensive.

[platoonDaddy]

Have 115gr FMJ and using Hodgdon Recipe Report (note attached), the recipe list WSF, CCI 500, bullet Diam '.355' starting load 4.9 & max load 5.7Grs.

Started at 4.9 and worked my way up to 5.5Grs and it is still very dirty. Therefore the question about other 'powder' for 115gr FMJ.

http://i933.photobucket.com/albums/ad176/slickville/IMG.jpg


Does this clear up the confusion?

Edit:

1. Weapon is Gen 4 G17 and don't have access to a chrono.

2. The suggestion about "power pistol' isn't an opinion for 9mm 115gr FMJ, only:
- 115 gr Speer GDHP | 124 gr Speer GDHP | 147 gr Speer GDHP |

Reference: http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/RecipeList.aspx?gtypeid=1

[Boxerglocker]

You can use the GDHP data for FMJ of the same weight.

What OAL are you loading to? Are you loading 1.169 as your posted reference. Take into account that most loading data is strictly for the purposes on giving powder ranges, velocity and pressure. The cleanliness of the load isn't taken into consideration.

Is you intention a full power practice load or a target / game gun match load? Personally if I were you.... I would start at minimum work up again but shorter the OAL to 1.135
I've use that OAL for well over 50K of FMJ's in 115/124 over the last 5 years. The shorter OAL will increase pressures and help with the burn. The give data at max of 5.7 is only running 137 power factor. I run a 133 Pf load out of my Spartan 9mm using 124g and it's super soft shooting. I can't see 137 being much difference. Work up 10 rounds at a time, with 1 grain increases to max and watch for pressure signs. Access to a chronograph will defiantly help your load development.

[Wildcat]

You can use the GDHP data for FMJ of the same weight.

What OAL are you loading to?

This is an important question.

Be careful loading your components to lengths like 1.169
1) With 115s there isn't much of the bullet in the case to keep it from moving.
2) That length range is pushing it in a Glock. The rounds can get snarled in the magazines when you get only slightly longer.

[Boxerglocker]

This is an important question.

Be careful loading your components to lengths like 1.169
1) With 115s there isn't much of the bullet in the case to keep it from moving.
2) That length range is pushing it in a Glock. The rounds can get snarled in the magazines when you get only slightly longer.

That's the point I was going to get to eventually, but thanks for bringing it up.

[platoonDaddy]

You can use the GDHP data for FMJ of the same weight.

What OAL are you loading to? Are you loading 1.169 as your posted reference. Take into account that most loading data is strictly for the purposes on giving powder ranges, velocity and pressure. The cleanliness of the load isn't taken into consideration.

Is you intention a full power practice load or a target / game gun match load? Personally if I were you.... I would start at minimum work up again but shorter the OAL to 1.135
I've use that OAL for well over 50K of FMJ's in 115/124 over the last 5 years. The shorter OAL will increase pressures and help with the burn. The give data at max of 5.7 is only running 137 power factor. I run a 133 Pf load out of my Spartan 9mm using 124g and it's super soft shooting. I can't see 137 being much difference. Work up 10 rounds at a time, with 1 grain increases to max and watch for pressure signs. Access to a chronograph will defiantly help your load development.

1. Being a new loader, I followed the recipe to the T. Therefore the COL|OAL is 1.169"

2. Current goal is a target load. Later on game/match load.

3. GDHP Data requires a change of power, reference:
http://i933.photobucket.com/albums/ad176/slickville/115gr.jpg

4. Okay I will change the COL|OAL to 1.135 using the remainder of my WSF and start at 4.9 Grs and work my way up to find a good burn. If I do, then I will be good to go and out of harms-way?

5. Back to the GDHP, of the attached load data, which one would you recommend, when I have used up my WSF?

6. Amen on the snarling of the rounds in the magazine, when I 1st started I loaded the 1st batch at 1.172 and big as shit snarling in the magazine. Currently the 1.169 feed great in all my Glock magazines, but the KCI's have issues with 1.169.




Thanks, feel really great this morning. Will fire them up tonight and test tomorrow. Will post my results.

[rjacobs]

I have loaded thousands upon thousands of 9mm using Titegroup. This was probably one of the most popular 9mm powders when I was searching for loads. People will say its not a beginner powder, but I started out with it and never had an issue. Start out at 4g and work your way up to 4.5g behind 115g loaded somewhere around 1.130-1.140 and you will be fine(all proof loads I have seen were loaded 1.10 so pretty short IMO).

Sweet spot in my guns for accuracy has always been up higher with TG(4.4 or 4.5g), but your mileage may vary.

From what I have found, if a manufacturer doesn't have ANY loads listed for a specific powder(i.e. WST and 9mm) its probably not a great idea to load with it. I load WST in .45, but wont in 9mm. I havent found anybody who loads WST in 9mm yet either.

As far as finding loads that are for one bullet type i.e. GDHP or LRN, you can use them for regular FMJ just fine, but like always start at the bottom and work up.

[platoonDaddy]

I have loaded thousands upon thousands of 9mm using Titegroup. This was probably one of the most popular 9mm powders when I was searching for loads.



Reference my previous post that has the Load Recipe Report, the use of Titegroup is for .356 bullet diam, I am using .355.

[rjacobs]

Reference my previous post that has the Load Recipe Report, the use of Titegroup is for .356 bullet diam, I am using .355.

I have loaded about 10k+ 115g FMJ .355 Montana Gold's with 4.5g Titegroup. Its fine and is a very accurate load(at least out of my M&P's and my dads Gen3 Glock 19). The .001 difference isnt going to cause you any issues. I honestly never even look at that when loading.

[platoonDaddy]

I have loaded about 10k+ 115g FMJ .355 Montana Gold's with 4.5g Titegroup. Its fine and is a very accurate load(at least out of my M&P's and my dads Gen3 Glock 19). The .001 difference isnt going to cause you any issues. I honestly never even look at that when loading.

at what COL|OAL, also what is starting load & max load?

[rjacobs]

at what COL|OAL, also what is starting load & max load?

I posted this above and it has worked well for me in my M&P's. I have loaded as long as 1.160 with no issues either.


Start out at 4g and work your way up to 4.5g behind 115g loaded somewhere around 1.130-1.140 and you will be fine(all proof loads I have seen were loaded 1.10 so pretty short IMO).

Sweet spot in my guns for accuracy has always been up higher with TG(4.4 or 4.5g), but your mileage may vary.



If you are only shooting these loads out of one gun, you should setup your OAL to be matched to your gun. There are several tutorials online on how to do this.

[Boxerglocker]

Reference my previous post that has the Load Recipe Report, the use of Titegroup is for .356 bullet diam, I am using .355.

I would highly suggest getting the ABC's of reloading for a little backround information.
Generally bullets and powders are all interchangable depending on the characteristics of the load you want.
.355 are FMJ/CMJ .356 and above LRN/Moly coated etc. You need to know the difference and reasons...oversize bullets provide better sealing in the barrels cause of thier softer composition.
I assume your using plated 115's from Roses so here is a definate winner load using TG. 4.3 at 1.135 OAL with that 115g bullet will run 130-133 PF out of you G17. My standard FMJ load 4.1 using a 124g.

[platoonDaddy]

okay couldn't wait until tomorrow, therefore headed to the range today, the following was fired from my G17 and my friends G19:

Zero 115gr FMJ .355"
WSF
COL = 1.135"
GRS 4.9 through 5.5 and same results :sad:

BoxerGlocker - I read the Lyman book from cover to cover and only ignored the rifle sections and if LRN was covered I certainly missed it. The only reference to "Molly Coated" that I can recall was referencing high volume varmint and high power shooters.

As a matter of fact:
page 340 diagram of the 9x19mm is .355", near the bottom of the page .356" is referenced as 'cast bullets'
page 452 Bullet Type Abbreviations LRN isn't mentioned.

If Lyman is advertised as the one of the best if not the best Reloading Handbooks, how is one suppose to think out of the box?

In any event I am getting the ABC's of reloading from pro's such as yourself.

*** rjacobs - my bad missed your previous post.

Have about enough WSF to load 500 more rounds, will use that up and then switch to TG and test out both of the loads you two have recommended.

Again thanks

[rjacobs]

I think you will be happy with TG. Like I said, that was about the most recommended powder for 9mm that I found. I now load 124g JHP Montana Gold's with 4.2g of TG and its an absolutely fantastic load in my M&P's.

[Boxerglocker]

okay couldn't wait until tomorrow, therefore headed to the range today, the following was fired from my G17 and my friends G19:

Zero 115gr FMJ .355"
WSF
COL = 1.135"
GRS 4.9 through 5.5 and same results :sad:

BoxerGlocker - I read the Lyman book from cover to cover and only ignored the rifle sections and if LRN was covered I certainly missed it. The only reference to "Molly Coated" that I can recall was referencing high volume varmint and high power shooters.

As a matter of fact:
page 340 diagram of the 9x19mm is .355", near the bottom of the page .356" is referenced as 'cast bullets'
page 452 Bullet Type Abbreviations LRN isn't mentioned.

If Lyman is advertised as the one of the best if not the best Reloading Handbooks, how is one suppose to think out of the box?

In any event I am getting the ABC's of reloading from pro's such as yourself.

*** rjacobs - my bad missed your previous post.

Have about enough WSF to load 500 more rounds, will use that up and then switch to TG and test out both of the loads you two have recommended.

Again thanks

Being a new reloader I can understand that in many cases you want and need a resource that is definitive. The reality is that is never gonna happen.
The load data given in manuals in using test barrels of different makeups. All guns are different, a Glock will take very long OAL's where a CZ very short using the same bullet profile. Some guns run lead better than others, etc.
The key is to get as much data as possible from various resources and develop a load that is tailored for your requirements and gun.
A word about your initial issue cleanliness of the burn. Some powders are sooty yet wipe clean easily others such as TG burn hot and scorch the brass. You'll need to try it for yourself and see if the one Pro out weighs the con... lastly a warning using TG, your a newbie so if you haven't yet realized TG though very versatile and popular has a major drawback in some peoples perspectives... very low case volume and very narrow load range from minimum to max. Keep these in mind and don't get into a hurry.

[NWPilgrim]

Most Lead Round Nose (LRN) are "cast bullets". In years past there were more swaged lead bullets (soft lead) but the hardcast bullets are most commonly sold now in bulk (500 - 5,000). So most lead bullets you buy now will be sized at .356" whether they are LRN, LSWC, LTC, LFN, etc.

AA#5 is a good powder for 9mm, too, but I think Power Pistol would be your best bet.

[Wildcat]

If Lyman is advertised as the one of the best if not the best Reloading Handbooks, how is one suppose to think out of the box?



When Lyman, or Hornady etc, puts together a loading manual, they have a lot more data per caliber than they could feasibly publish. All the possible bullet and powder combinations in some of the more popular calibers would be a volume unto itself. Space constraints limit them to the editor's 'choice' recipes. So if you have a pet powder, it may take some research to find out if it will work well or poorly.

If you really want a clean powder, Vihtavuori powders like N320, N330 and N340 work in the 9mm and are exceptional. You usually get one patch cleaning when you use jacketed bullets. They are also comparatively spendy and often challenging to find.

You asked about other loads:
I use W231 (also called HP-38) and load 4.7gr under a 124 gr FMJ (Montana Gold or Zero) to length 1.155-1.162.
It is not as clean as Viht but I've loaded 40k over several years and this load runs just about every 9mm pistol or carbine that it has been tried in (its too long for a CZ).

On the 9mm:
Make sure the bullet is secure in the case. The 9mm and 40 S&W are two cartridges where you really don't want the cartridges to get shorter during feeding.
Take a couple of cartridges, hold them by the case and try to push the bullet into the case by leaning on it moderately. It shouldn't move. You shouldn't be able to twist the bullet in the case either.

Some brass is worthless. You don't have to sort it into individual brands but if you see an A-MERC headstamp, or NPA just pitch them. There are a few others, if I can round up a photo, I'll post it.

[Tennvol12345]

I load 115gr LRN (Missouri Bullet) and WST. If you want I can check the charge weight and OAL when I get home this weekend, send me a PM.

But yes, finding published data on 9mm and WST was a bitch. I had to ask a friend to check his books since I couldn't find one in my books.

I started off with W231 but couldn't find it about 2 years ago during the shortage but I was able to find WST, so I went with it and now load .45, .380, 9mm, and .38 with it.

[Boxerglocker]

I load 115gr LRN (Missouri Bullet) and WST. If you want I can check the charge weight and OAL when I get home this weekend, send me a PM.

But yes, finding published data on 9mm and WST was a bitch. I had to ask a friend to check his books since I couldn't find one in my books.

I started off with W231 but couldn't find it about 2 years ago during the shortage but I was able to find WST, so I went with it and now load .45, .380, 9mm, and .38 with it.

You be hard pressed to find any current published loads for WST. I and others have actually called Winchester and their stance is that it's not appropriate for 9mm.
I use it exclusively for 135g moly coated lead loads but had to develop my own, using a chrono and watching carefully for pressure signs. YMMV

[Wildcat]

Here are the headstamps:

https://www.m4carbine.net/picture.php?albumid=376&pictureid=2050

These -can- be reloaded but I'd recommend you pitch 'em instead.
The two brands on the left have thin webs.
The brand right of center (Norinco) is known for not retaining the primers.
The stuff on the far right is poorly made.

[CoryCop25]

I sold my reloading equipment a while ago but when I was into it, I loaded 115gr 9mm, 180gr 40S&W and 185gr 45ACP all with 5.3 or 5.6 (Can't remember) grains of Winchester 231. I never had to adjust my powder measure! 231 is quite clean too. I always used magnum pistol primers.

[Fire_Medic]

OP-, this is just my 2 cents here.

I love WSF, I have been loading it in 9mm for more than a year. WSF shoots dirty if not loaded hot enough, period.

My final load for 9mm with WSF that I use in my M&P 9mm now, and ran in my Glocks and HK P30L in the past is:

Montana Gold 124gr FMJ
Winchester/CCI SP Primers
My previously fired brass
5.0-5.1 gr WSF
OAL= 1.120

If you shorten your OAL some more it should clean up your load around 5.0 grains. You can also search a lot of info on WSF over on Brian Enos Forums, that's what I did when I was developing this load for me. Also keep in mind that other factors like humidity and temp can affect how clean a load burns, especially when shooting plated/lead projectiles.

Remember that all of the manuals are guides and some companies are much more conservative than others for obvious legal reasons. You can get 4 books and look up the same load and you will get 4 different sets of numbers though all usually close, but sometimes you will see one companies max for a load as only a little higher than another companies starting load.

This load gives me one ragged hole in any of the modern 9mm pistols I have shot it in if I do my part.

Hope this helps.

FM

[platoonDaddy]

OP-, this is just my 2 cents here.

I love WSF, I have been loading it in 9mm for more than a year. WSF shoots dirty if not loaded hot enough, period.

My final load for 9mm with WSF that I use in my M&P 9mm now, and ran in my Glocks and HK P30L in the past is:

Montana Gold 124gr FMJ
Winchester/CCI SP Primers
My previously fired brass
5.0-5.1 gr WSF
OAL= 1.120

If you shorten your OAL some more it should clean up your load around 5.0 grains. You can also search a lot of info on WSF over on Brian Enos Forums, that's what I did when I was developing this load for me. Also keep in mind that other factors like humidity and temp can affect how clean a load burns, especially when shooting plated/lead projectiles.

Remember that all of the manuals are guides and some companies are much more conservative than others for obvious legal reasons. You can get 4 books and look up the same load and you will get 4 different sets of numbers though all usually close, but sometimes you will see one companies max for a load as only a little higher than another companies starting load.

This load gives me one ragged hole in any of the modern 9mm pistols I have shot it in if I do my part.

Hope this helps.

FM

Thanks will print and retain for next batch of bullets.

[Fire_Medic]

Thanks will print and retain for next batch of bullets.

Please keep me posted, pm me if you want after trying the load, I would like to know how it worked out for you.

FM

[chadbag]

It all comes down to how it works for you.

I once loaded a bunch (like 100 for test purposes) of .40 S&W using Vihtavuori 3N37 powder, using a mid range load from the VV book, current edition for the time (mid 90s). Instead of loading 10 or 20 and trying them, like I should have, I loaded 100 using a recipe from the book, about midway between start and max.

In my FS H&K USP, I had some cycling problems, and the cases were extra sooty. Even though this was a published load.

I ended up using the rest of the 3N37 in 9mm with 124gr bullets. They worked great (still have a small amount somewhere) and ran my friends MP5 as well. Not sooty or anything.