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toddackerman
10-17-07, 20:48
I live in Colorado and am thinking about taking more training on the carbine. I wanted feedback on "Valhalla" in Telluride regarding the quality of instruction, the instructors, and carbine courses before making any plans.

Wasn't this school associated with Lewis Awerbuck at one time? He isn't mentioned.

Any help is appreciated.

Tack

Pat_Rogers
10-17-07, 21:32
Doubtful that Louie would ever be associated with them.
I understand that you have to check your weapons in at the gate.

If you are looking for training in CO, inquire of Jeff carpenter, known as USMC03 on several forums (including here).
Jeff is a real deal guy and a detective in Pueblo West who hosts a number of outside trainers at Pueblo West.
Hope this helps.

toddackerman
10-18-07, 07:58
Thanks Pat!

Tack

KiloSierra
10-21-07, 16:13
Impression based solely on seeing them on Personal Defense TV on the Outdoor Channel:

Save your money, they're idiots.

Again, this impression is based solely on seeing them on Self Defense TV. It's entirely possible the segments editing could have made the instructor look like an idiot.

SIMPLYDYNAMIC
10-21-07, 23:17
Doubtful that Louie would ever be associated with them.
I understand that you have to check your weapons in at the gate.

Obviously that's an assumption.... I was just there on an invite to help teach an SF unit... just like all good ranges they put safety first, but myself and everyone else walked right in with our guns...

As far a Rob Pincus's teaching methods? I would say anyone could learn something from that guy, he is a phenomenal instructor due to his never ending and extensive research on defensive shooting and has great podium skills. I enjoyed his outlook on warrior mindset Incorporated into training. Also its a great scenario based training platform.
Now..just off my first impression... but I would recommend the combat focus training to anyone.

Rob Pincus
11-10-07, 14:33
Sheesh.. I thought I saw all the episodes on PDTV that I was on.. I need to call Gresham and get him to send me the one they edited to make me look like an idiot. That is just the kind of stuff that annoys someone who is busy trying to spread important information to people who can't afford to justify the time and expense of coming to a high end school. Of course, it is easier to just post unsubstantiated opinions on the internet to get access to an audience... maybe I should try that???:rolleyes: .

Seriously, Todd, check out our website and newsletter and let me know what you are interested in. If nothing else, I can supply you with plenty of student feedback about our programs. I just got done with a two day Carbine course in Switzerland and teaching Carbine for 3 days at SWAT Round-up down in FLorida... based on the last month, when I get back to the officer next week, I am officially changing the course name for our 2 day defensive carbine to "Combat Focus Carbine" because of the popularity of the CFS program right now. The fact is that the principles are all the same, with obvious modifications to accommodate the long gun.

Kilo,

I'd love to hear what, specifically, prompted you to make the statement. Student feedback is an important part of program development and I like to hear the backgrounds and explanations for offhanded comments such as the one you made.


Travis,

Thanks for the clarification... and the kind words.

The gun checking deal is for the resort that is owned by the same person as VTC... some of our students choose to stay there while they train at VTC. Students at VTC, as noted, can drive right to the building with their gear. I've never quite figured out why this is such an issue... you'd think all people shooting during courses would be a clue. Some people enjoy laboring in ignorance instead of confronting reality, embracing it and moving forward.


As for Louie, I consider him a friend and we both write for SWAT Mag, but he has never been associated with Valhalla.

-RJP

rhino
11-10-07, 15:43
. . . The gun checking deal is for the resort that is owned by the same person as VTC... some of our students choose to stay there while they train at VTC.



Rob:

Since you brought it up, why does the resort require people to check their guns? Something like that would be a deal-breaker for me even if I was given the run of the place free of charge.

This is a sincere question, by the way. I am not one of your detractors or other person with an axe to grind. I'm just curious.

Rob Pincus
11-10-07, 16:03
Rhino,

Understood... I don't really want to hijack this thread, but here is one review someone posted awhile back about their experience at BOTH VTC and EMR:
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207923&highlight=elk+mountain+resort.
Here's another review:
http://www.imakenews.com/valhalla/e_article000517781.cfm?x=b11,0,w

Also, Kevin Davis and Mike Detty have written excellent articles in the past about the relationship between the two entities from the perspective of the tactical trainer (Tactical Response and G&W for LE, respectively).

Some people would rather stay in Montrose, which is fine by us... but most students compromise "guns in rooms" for convenience and quality (historically including most of the SF and NSW crews, btw.... even the military that stay in town usually choose to secure their weapons at VTC).

I've gone to some length in the past on various forums to explain the situation to detail level. I don't mind doing it again, but I'm on my way out of the hotel in a few minutes.

The bottom line is that EMR and VTC are separate companies. Saying that you wouldn't train at VTC because EMR doesn't let you take guns to your room is about the same to me as saying that you won't fly to Colorado to train at VTC because commercial airlines wont let you take your gun on the plane. I fly commercial all the time (kinda have to), I can't afford to live in a fantasy world where I can only support businesses that do things "my way".

Again, I'm open to a more in depth discussion, but we should do it in another thread. I was addressing it, because it was brought up by another poster......The fact is that it shouldn't have been brought up in a thread about TRAINING, with the original question being about " the quality of instruction, the instructors, and carbine courses before making any plans."

John Chapman
11-12-07, 11:20
Todd,

First of all, good on you for doing your research.

I would strongly encourage you to go take CFS at Valhalla. I do not make such recommendations lightly.

As the owner of a training company myself, I look at all training I attend with a critical eye. My BS filter is finely tuned. In September of this year I attended Combat Focus Shooting at Valhalla.

I found Mr. Pincus to be one of the two or three best instructors with whom I have ever had the pleasure to train. Part of the reason he is so "controversial" is that he really thinks each tactical problem through, then works up a simple solution. His intelectual honesty combined with Valhalla's unbeleavable facility allow him to test solutions under near scientific conditions.

Having said all that, I know Valhalla does not have all the answers, nor did they claim to when I was there. Valhalla has but one piece of the warrior puzzle you should be trying to build. It will be worth your time.

When I attended CFS, I stayed at the Elk Mountain Resort, where Valhalla is co-located. The resort is truly 5 star. That being said, the resort and the school are not the same company. It is a EMR policy to check your guns, not Valhalla. If it is that much heartburn for you, stay in Montrose and drive right to the school with your guns.

I will be going back for some more training with Mr. Pincus next year.

Anyway, thats just the opinion of one of Valhalla's competitors. Take it for what it's worth.

Greyman09
11-12-07, 11:30
John ,

I had the chance to train with LMSdefense in August. Great experience. I value your opinion after having spent some time with your instructors.

Thanks

Rob Pincus
11-12-07, 16:36
Hey, Chappy... nice to see another familiar face over here... Thanks for adding your perspective.


For those of you who may be interested in hearing more from our programs, I invite you to check the Combat Focus Podcast (http://www.switchpod.com/p13003.html).... the second episode was just uploaded today. The Podcast features audio excerpts from courses.

LDM
11-14-07, 17:20
Mr. Pincus, I recently purchased and read your book Combat Focus Shooting.

I liked it... a lot. Its simplicity is a virtue. It resonates. (read: no BS)

I am not ex-military, or law enforcement, and have absolutely no real world credentials. Never shot anybody, and hope I don't have to. I am just a guy who has hunted & shot all his life and am serious about it. Serious enough I study it. And serious enough about defense of life that I have decided to be a sheepdog, not a sheep.

I for one buy into the "work with the body, don't fight it and listen to intuition" that you and Tony Blauer and Col. Grossman and De Becker and Siddle and even Fairbairn to a degree, all seem to arrive at from somewhat different directions.

I have not had the privilege to attend one of your classes...but you are on my list. My list is short.

Stay safe.

Joseywales
11-14-07, 20:56
Dittos on Valhalla.

First of all, it is a many Viking name!

Secondly, I looked at the web site. Everyone's credentials seem to be on the up-and-up. So I am pretty DAM sure that there is plenty that they can teach 95% of the US population.

Third, I have seen them on Self Defense TV and I purchased their videos through the Second Amendment Foundation. I think everything was pretty good for introductory instruction. I am showing it to all of my siblings (at least 6 of them). I would like KiloSierra to point out what he thinks is so stupid. Obviously I missed something.

Fourth, some day I hope to go to Valhalla and plan to bring my future wife too. Keep up the good work Rob! Hope to meet you in person some day.

CMPM14NM
11-16-07, 07:49
I have no knowldge of or comment on VTC but I do have a comment on the "checking your guns" policy of the resort. I agree this is idiotic but why not take a "don't tell" position? When they ask if you are armed or have guns to check, just reply "no" and go about your business. I do this all the time, in all sorts of places, and have yet to be caught. I mean, what's the worst they could do if they caught you? Shoot you in the back of the head? Ask you to leave?

toddackerman
11-16-07, 08:45
I have no knowldge of or comment on VTC but I do have a comment on the "checking your guns" policy of the resort. I agree this is idiotic but why not take a "don't tell" position? When they ask if you are armed or have guns to check, just reply "no" and go about your business. I do this all the time, in all sorts of places, and have yet to be caught. I mean, what's the worst they could do if they caught you? Shoot you in the back of the head? Ask you to leave?

First, who are you agreeing with? No one on this thread has said that the resorts (not Valhalla's) policy is "Idiotic".

Actually, you could be arrested for non-compliance of a personal property owners, or businesses "Right" to not have anyone on their property with a weapon. Even businesses and commercial stores have this "Right" to legally make this requirement even in a CCW state, like Colorado where I live. I travel a lot to other CCW states and have seen this requirement on the front of several businesses like Costco, and Walmart. Again, if you violate this policy, you are breaking the law.

As far as "lying" to not get "Caught"....so much for integrity.

Don Robison
11-16-07, 08:59
Again, if you violate this policy, you are breaking the law.

Unless you're in FL. Then you're just breaking policy.
It realy depends on the state you're in whether the signs carry the force of law.

With that said, If I didn't like their policy I wouldn't stay there the choice is up to the individual.

Mike729
11-16-07, 09:06
Unless you're in FL. Then you're just breaking policy.
It realy depends on the state you're in whether the signs carry the force of law.

With that said, If I didn't like their policy I wouldn't stay there the choice is up to the individual.

Right....And the arrest would be for "Trespassing" and only if you don't leave after being asked to, which is pretty much all the store can do.

Don Robison
11-16-07, 09:09
Right....And the arrest would be for "Trespassing" and only if you don't leave after being asked to, which is pretty much all the store can do.


Very true, but why would a person not leave if asked? I never understood that insistance to stay where they weren't wanted.


Sorry to hijack

rubberneck
11-16-07, 09:39
As far as "lying" to not get "Caught"....so much for integrity.

As opposed to disarming yourself and possibly regretting it later? There is something to be said about not being a slave to the absolute. IMHO, there are shades of gray in life.

David Pennington
11-16-07, 10:13
I posted earlier as CMPM14NM but just had Grant change my user name for unrelated reasons.

I've carried a badge of one variety or another for 10 years now (local, state, and federal) and I can tell you that you are absolutely not breaking the law by not following a resorts posted "rules". These are private policys not law. As stated by someone else, they can make you leave their property but they can't arrest you. If you refuse to leave or cause a disturbance, they can call the police and they can arrest you but that has nothing to do with carrying or possessing a weapon.

Wow, we should never break the rules or lie? What Disney world does that work in? For example:

"We're hunting some run away slaves. Have you seen them?"

"Are you hiding any Jews in your basement? How about your neighbors?"

"We've just banned "assault rifles". Do you have any here in your house? Do you know if any of your neighbors have any?"

"You wanna buy crack from me? You're not a cop are you?"

Wouldn't a lie be justified in any of those last 4 circumstances?

Your right to own, carry, and use firearms is God given. Period. No institution, private or public, can take that right away unless you bow down and let them...

toddackerman
11-16-07, 10:28
I posted earlier as CMPM14NM but just had Grant change my user name for unrelated reasons.

I've carried a badge of one variety or another for 10 years now (local, state, and federal) and I can tell you that you are absolutely not breaking the law by not following a resorts posted "rules". These are private policys not law. As stated by someone else, they can make you leave their property but they can't arrest you. If you refuse to leave or cause a disturbance, they can call the police and they can arrest you but that has nothing to do with carrying or possessing a weapon.

Wow, we should never break the rules or lie? What Disney world does that work in? For example:

"We're hunting some run away slaves. Have you seen them?"

"Are you hiding any Jews in your basement? How about your neighbors?"

"We've just banned "assault rifles". Do you have any here in your house? Do you know if any of your neighbors have any?"

"You wanna buy crack from me? You're not a cop are you?"

Wouldn't a lie be justified in any of those last 4 circumstances?

Your right to own, carry, and use firearms is God given. Period. No institution, private or public, can take that right away unless you bow down and let them...


I never said that "They" could arrest you, only that you could be arrested as exemplified by not leaving the premises. Guess I should have added that.

If everything you said is a "God Given Right", then why do we need CCW's for example. Isn't carrying without one (everywhere except Vermont) illegal? Per your reply, it's OK.

This isn't "Disney World" my friend. It's about being a Law Abiding citizen, and frankly I find it incredulous that a LEO would advocate breaking the law, especially when it could end up costing an individual his rights.

David Pennington
11-16-07, 10:57
I never said that "They" could arrest you, only that you could be arrested as exemplified by not leaving the premises. Guess I should have added that.

If everything you said is a "God Given Right", then why do we need CCW's for example. Isn't carrying without one (everywhere except Vermont) illegal? Per your reply, it's OK.

This isn't "Disney World" my friend. It's about being a Law Abiding citizen, and frankly I find it incredulous that a LEO would advocate breaking the law, especially when it could end up costing an individual his rights.

Okay, we seem to be clear on who can arrest you and what for. Let's stop kicking that dead horse.

I stand by the fact that firearms ownership and useage (more broadly self-defense) is a God given right. You may get punished for exercising this right but it is still your right until you give it up or die. Free speech is a God given right but that doesn't mean that governmental goon squads, be they WWII Nazis or North Koreans, can't punish you for it. Some choose to exercise their rights, sometimes at great risks, while other choose to freely give them up.

You don't "need" a CCW. You may get in trouble for not having one but I maintain that you have the right to carry a firearm regardless of government approvals. If it's reasonable to comply with the laws, while not gving up your God given or Constitutional rights, I absolutely agree that you should do it. If you live in a state where there is no CCW, I say do what you think is the "right thing" but realize that you may pay a price if it ever comes down to it.

Being a "Law Abiding citizen" is great as long as the laws are good and reasonable. Look at my last post. A law abiding citizen in Alabama in 1860 would have turned in a run away slave to be hung. A law abiding citizen in Nazi Germany in 1941 would have turned in his Jewish neighbor to be gassed. The Nurnberg trials told us that just "following orders" or laws doesn't give you a pass if you are doing something you know is wrong. Do you see a trend here?

I'm all for obeying the law as long as the law is A) moral and B) Constitutional. Be law abiding as long as it jives with doing the "right thing". Blind obedience is dangerous to all of our liberty.

David Pennington
11-16-07, 10:59
This isn't "Disney World" my friend. It's about being a Law Abiding citizen, and frankly I find it incredulous that a LEO would advocate breaking the law, especially when it could end up costing an individual his rights.


Where in my first 2 posts did I advocate "breaking the law" in ref to carrying a weapon or checking it in? You'd only be breaking the law if you were asked to leave the property and refused. You would then be trespassing. Not following a corporate policy does not equal "breaking the law".

I absolutely advocate breaking the law if it means not sending your neighbor to the gas chamber or getting someone of the "wrong" skin color hung. It's all about doing what's right.

Tom_Jones
11-16-07, 11:22
I've carried a badge of one variety or another for 10 years now (local, state, and federal) and I can tell you that you are absolutely not breaking the law by not following a resorts posted "rules". These are private policys not law.

I'm not a lawyer, but here in New Mexico according to 10.8.2 NMAC (http://dps.nm.org/lawEnforcement/ccw/docs/10.8.2NMAC_17Nov05.pdf) (Public Safety and Law Enforcement -- Weapons and Explosives -- Carrying Concealed Handguns) it would appear that the "policy" would carry a bit of legal weight:


10.8.2.16 TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF LICENSE:
E. Carrying prohibited on private property. In addition to other limitations stated in the act, a licensee may not carry a concealed handgun on or about his person on private property that has signs posted prohibiting the carrying of concealed weapons or when verbally told so by a person lawfully in possession of the property.

rhino
11-16-07, 11:33
This isn't "Disney World" my friend. It's about being a Law Abiding citizen, and frankly I find it incredulous that a LEO would advocate breaking the law, especially when it could end up costing an individual his rights.


Well, this topic has gone askew, but since we're here . . .

I find it troubling when people (as the poster quoted above) fully equate "legal" with "right" and "illegal" with "wrong."

When I was young and very naive, I believed that too. The bottom line is, there are many, many, many bad laws. I don't advocate breaking them, but that doesn't change the fact that many of them are just wrong.

It's absurd for any rational adult to cling to the fallacy that the law is always right and that breaking any law is always wrong. That's just not the way it is.

Mr. Pennington understands this.

When doing what is right conflicts with the law, then an adult has to make a decision. Then, they must live with the potential consquences of their decision. That's the responsibility part of being a free adult with God-given (or innate if you so choose) liberties.

The lawful = right mentality is what eventually leads to "we were just following orders."

SIMPLYDYNAMIC
11-17-07, 00:13
The bottom line is that EMR and VTC are separate companies.

Getting back on subject... keeping in mind what Rob said above. Also if anyone has a problem checking their training weapons in at an armory or an establishment like that, then they are obviously unexposed to the standard operating procedures of most training facilities, military, LEO, etc... military and most people look to check their weapons so they don't have to deal with them or leave them unsecured or leave a guard on them for a night out. Besides you are there to train and I don't think someone is going to have to worry about using there CCW training on that property.

Rob Pincus
11-17-07, 12:37
Thanks again for all the good feedback....

LDM, it is always good to be on a list like that.. especially when it comes from an educated source.

I find the conversations on the resort policy interesting. We've "found" a few guns over the years at the resort and moved on quickly after the "misunderstandings" were resolved and the firearms checked at VTC. No big deal. It will become a big deal if we ever have someone end up dead in a hotel room that is owned by the same person who owns Valhalla. It's happened to Gunsite, its happened more recently to Frontsight....students being irresponsible with guns when outside the control of an instructor but still "associated" with the school is a concern... the owner would rather it not happen here and the no guns in the room policy is part of the plan, and I agree with him. Think about the potential court debacle for him when they widow of the guy who was shot by his friend at EMR after dinner points out that the owner, through various agents/businesses, "got them excited about shooting/training, served the alcohol and allowed them access to their firearms!" As for legal action, I doubt it would ever come to it, but if someone really made a play to remain at the resort without checking their guns, the most likely result would be something like this:
Security Guy: "if you aren't going to follow the rules, please leave"...
Rule Breaker: "blah, blah, blah"
Security Guy: "no, really, leave"...
Rule Breaker: "blah, blah, blah"
Security Guy: "as a duly assigned agent of the owner, I am instructing you to leave and notifying the sheriff's office because if you remain it will be considered trespassing"....
Rule Breaker: "blah, blah, blah"
Security Guy: etc...
Rule Breaker: "blah, blah, blah"
Security Guy: etc.
Rule Breaker: "blah, blah, blah"
Then Rob Says: "and, since you were an a**-clown about it, no you cannot train at Valhalla anymore. If you aren't responsible enough to abide by rules you knew existed at a place that you chose to be, or at least man-up when you get caught, I won't train you."
A** Clown Rule Breaker goes to internet and posts: "Rob Pincus and Valhalla Suck! They hate the 2nd Amendment and don't respect individual rights! No worthy gunowner should support their business!"
:rolleyes:

One interesting anecdote that's been blown out of proportion over the last year was started when a well known gunwriter drove up to the gate for a 3 day all-expenses paid event that Blackhawk and Valhalla were having at EMR/VTC. He was asked at the EMR gate if he had any guns, he asked "why?". The policy was explained and said that he wouldn't stay at such a place, put his truck in reverse and drove away. He never asked to speak to anyone from Valhalla, any of his writer buddies here at the resort or anyone associated with the event. This has come up a few times over the past year or so, most recently at some event in CA where another old-time writer was spouting off about how Valhalla supposedly "kicked **Well-Known-Writer-Guy** out". The funny thing was that the big-mouth (who, ironically, wrote a great article about VTC years ago!) was actually at the event and knew the real story. People with agendas are funny sometimes. The great thing is that when silliness ensues in a forum like this, the record can be set straight. Similarly to what has happened here, there were, thankfully, people who knew better at the event in CA.
Icing on the cake: I was at a small event with the supposedly scorned writer in question a couple of months ago and we had some good conversation and he never brought the incident up! :rolleyes: (again)

Back to TRAINING stuff:

I just officially announced the Course "Combat Focus Carbine".... over the past few months, we've been doing a lot of carbine training for a diverse student body. Applying the fundamentals & drills of Combat Focus Shooting to Carbine happened naturally over the past couple of years with our military students, so we've now opened the course up to regular enrollment and given it a title. It does not replace our "Defensive Carbine" course, which focuses more on tactics. Basically, the two courses will compliment each other, with CFC covering fundamentals and weapons handling and DC being the following course putting those skills in context... rather like CF is often followed by Home Defense or Concealed Carry Tactics.
An article/announcement is in the latest Valhalla Newsletter (http://www.imakenews.com/valhalla).

-RJP

M4arc
11-17-07, 15:25
Mr. Pincus, thank you for taking the time to post and hopefully put an end to some of the internet rumors/half truths that exist surrounding this issue.

Rob Pincus
11-17-07, 15:46
I appreciate the opportunity. Thank You.

MerQ
11-17-07, 20:04
I really don't see why people are bent out of shape about having to check their weapons. It's standard procedure on any military installation (everyone with military time knows this) as someone already posted and you can't take them into many places like bars or federal buildings. There are some places where it isn't legally allowed so either follow the rules or just find somewhere else to go. I personally thought it was explained pretty clearly the reasoning about it.

rhino
11-17-07, 21:53
I don't "get bent out of shape" over such things, but I don't go places like that. It's how I live my life. I have as much right to to not go to a place where guns are checked as they do to require it on their property. I don't see a problem.

And the military thing isn't a great analogy anyway. Look at all the times the military will completely disarm their own people because someone is afraid of the soldiers/marines having loaded guns. Remember the multiple times that tragedy has ensued because of it.

The negligent discharges in hotel rooms (especially those that have killed someone) are inexcusable. I don't think checking guns is the answer to that problem, but then it's not my resort.

The argument about where you might need or not need your gun is also weak. If any of us could predict such things, we wouldn't be wherever it was at the time. I have no powers to predict the future, so I always carry like I always wear my seatbelt. If I played the odds games of where I might "need" it or not, I wouldn't carry a gun ever because the odds favor me never needing it. I prefer to be prepared and to retain the means to exercise my responsibility for my own safety.

Again, I don't contest any private property owner's rights to make whatever rules they choose. I also do not think the opinions of people who disagree and choose to not patronize such places should be dismissed so readily.

Given that ... I think Rob Pincus is cool. I think Valhalla (the training facility) is cool. If I ever go to Colorado, I'll probably do more than one class there. I also won't stay at the resort. :D

MerQ
11-18-07, 07:23
I don't "get bent out of shape" over such things, but I don't go places like that. It's how I live my life. I have as much right to to not go to a place where guns are checked as they do to require it on their property. I don't see a problem.

And the military thing isn't a great analogy anyway. Look at all the times the military will completely disarm their own people because someone is afraid of the soldiers/marines having loaded guns. Remember the multiple times that tragedy has ensued because of it.

The negligent discharges in hotel rooms (especially those that have killed someone) are inexcusable. I don't think checking guns is the answer to that problem, but then it's not my resort.

The argument about where you might need or not need your gun is also weak. If any of us could predict such things, we wouldn't be wherever it was at the time. I have no powers to predict the future, so I always carry like I always wear my seatbelt. If I played the odds games of where I might "need" it or not, I wouldn't carry a gun ever because the odds favor me never needing it. I prefer to be prepared and to retain the means to exercise my responsibility for my own safety.

Again, I don't contest any private property owner's rights to make whatever rules they choose. I also do not think the opinions of people who disagree and choose to not patronize such places should be dismissed so readily.

Given that ... I think Rob Pincus is cool. I think Valhalla (the training facility) is cool. If I ever go to Colorado, I'll probably do more than one class there. I also won't stay at the resort. :D

I'm not really trying to get into a pissing match but if you are taking your firearms on ANY military installation or into a bank and such then you are wrong. You are breaking the law in those instances. You may not like my analogies but it is a true statement. Now if you say you don't go to ANY place that doesn't allow you to carry then I take it that you don't go to church, you don't bank, you wouldn't take your kids to school, your don't occassionally have a drink with friends after a long week of work, etc... You may not like my analogy and it is certainly your right to go as you please but I honestly don't think that missing out on the simple pleasures in life is worth it because you can't legally carry there. IMO there is a fine line between self protection and all out paranoia. I'm not saying that this statement applies to you, because I don't know you from Adam, but even still my analogies were valid.

I guess what I'm saying is that no you can't control or predict the future. All you can do is follow the law, hope for the best, and pray that God sees fit to put you in the best predicaments to protect yourself and your family.

Dport
11-18-07, 08:32
I'm not really trying to get into a pissing match but if you are taking your firearms on ANY military installation or into a bank and such then you are wrong. You are breaking the law in those instances.
As someone who lives on a military installation, I can say that your blanket statement is inaccurate.

In fact, this military installation allows civilians to hunt on it. Other military installations allow civilians to use their range facilities.

The ironic part is I'm more restricted with issue weapons than with my own.

Don Robison
11-18-07, 10:54
I'm not really trying to get into a pissing match but if you are taking your firearms on ANY military installation or into a bank and such then you are wrong.

Wrong on both accounts. I'll give you a 1/2 point for not being able to CCW on the installation. Blanket statements are rarely accurate.





Edit: In 30 minutes I've leaving my on base house and going to the on base gun club for a little informal plinking with some friends.

Jay Cunningham
11-18-07, 11:12
A bank? That sounds like an old wive's tale - I hear it all of the time from guys around here (sw PA) but you can open carry into a bank here if you desire.

At least that is our local law/lack thereof.

I don't have a dog in this "fight" but I do prefer to be armed at all times, if possible. If I was attending a facility that demanded that I check my personal firearms in I probably would not train there. If they had a secure area if you desired to check your arms... that would be well-received by me.

DrMark
11-18-07, 11:42
Now if you say you don't go to ANY place that doesn't allow you to carry then I take it that you don't go to church, you don't bank, you wouldn't take your kids to school, your don't occassionally have a drink with friends after a long week of work, etc...

MerQ, please consider updating your profile to show your state. If the laws in your state are truly as bad as you indicate, I'd like to know what state that is.

Here in Virginia, banks are okay, churches (if you have good & sufficient reason) are okay, and restaurants serving alcohol (if you're not concealing) are okay.

Also, to follow up dport's comment, I've seen many civilians with firearms on military and other government posts/bases, for purposes including hunting, skeet shooting, and turkey shoots.

Hawkeye
11-18-07, 12:22
MerQ, as noted, you are wrong on a number of accounts.

And no, I dont go places I cant carry, unless I am forced to, such as the rare occasion I am on a plane.

jmart
11-18-07, 13:39
Also, to follow up dport's comment, I've seen many civilians with firearms on military and other government posts/bases, for purposes including hunting, skeet shooting, and turkey shoots.

This is interesting because I work on a military installation as defense contractor. I know it has a skeet range so obviously you can bring a firearm to that location. But I also know they do not allow concealed carry on the base. If I attempted to bring a loaded firearm (sidearm, AR) on base I would be in deep stuff. I certainly am not allowed to carry concealed within my workplace, even though the civilian jurisdiction (El Paso county) issues concealed carry permits.

Dport
11-18-07, 13:51
This is interesting because I work on a military installation as defense contractor. I know it has a skeet range so obviously you can bring a firearm to that location. But I also know they do not allow concealed carry on the base. If I attempted to bring a loaded firearm (sidearm, AR) on base I would be in deep stuff. I certainly am not allowed to carry concealed within my workplace, even though the civilian jurisdiction (El Paso county) issues concealed carry permits.

Concealed carry is most likely a no-no on any given installation. I say most likely, because it really does vary from installation to installation.

That wasn't his point, however. He was talking about checking your gun. You definitely do not have to check your gun at every military installation.

TOrrock
11-18-07, 14:02
I think this thread is so thoroughly off track that it's beyond redemption.

If you guys want to keep debating this, how about starting a new thread or taking it to email or pm.

jmart
11-18-07, 14:05
Concealed carry is most likely a no-no on any given installation. I say most likely, because it really does vary from installation to installation.

That wasn't his point, however. He was talking about checking your gun. You definitely do not have to check your gun at every military installation.

I'm not sure what the restrictions/limitations are. Occasionally I've been selected for a random vehicle search, it's a common practice by the SPs providing base access control. I've never had a firearm in my vehicle, but I'm pretty sure if I had my AR in a case in the trunk, or a loaded sidearm in my glove box I would be in violation of base/federal policy. Next time I forget my CAC card and have to stop for a pass (happens about once a month, despite my best planning efforts:eek: ), I'll ask the SPs.