View Full Version : DOJ Staff Report on Fast & Furious (Project Gunwalker/Gunrunner)
I have not had an opportunity to read the report in full but thought others might like to have the opportunity. Please go here (http://oversight.house.gov/images/stories/Reports/ATF_Report.pdf) for the official DOJ staff report on Operation Fast and Furious.
Do not turn this thread into anti-LEO garbage that will get it closed. This is important information regarding our government and the agency that's directly responsible for overseeing our current gun laws. I believe this should be read by everyone who has an interest in preserving our 2nd Amendment rights.
Smuckatelli
06-15-11, 09:56
I read the whole document last night. Today's hearing is going to be interesting.....I don't think the administration has an Oliver North type person in the chain. I think this is going to eunich the administration.
This looks like a race between the pro and anti gun people on the hill. On Monday Feinstein was requesting to bring back the AWB because of all of the US guns in criminal hands in Mexico.
Thanks for the link Irish
On Monday Feinstein was requesting to bring back the AWB because of all of the US guns in criminal hands in Mexico.
You'd think with all the other problems that short bus, window-licking state has that she'd have plenty of other places to focus her attention.:rolleyes: In other news, Feinstein promotes bill to ban pencils because they cause kids to misspell words.
I read the whole document last night. Today's hearing is going to be interesting.....I don't think the administration has an Oliver North type person in the chain. I think this is going to eunich the administration.
I'm hopping on a plane now and will read the PDF file in the air. You can watch the hearings live right now: http://www.c-span.org/Events/Fast-and-Furious-a-Catastrophic-Disaster/10737422274-2/
QuietShootr
06-15-11, 12:34
I'm going to bookmark that report to point to the next time someone says certain groups aren't out to **** us on absolute purpose.
End of story.
Cincinnatus
06-15-11, 12:35
I'm hopping on a plane now and will read the PDF file in the air. You can watch the hearings live right now: http://www.c-span.org/Events/Fast-and-Furious-a-Catastrophic-Disaster/10737422274-2/
Godspeed, and here's to keeping the TSA's thumbs out of your ass.
:p
Thanks for the head's up on this report. You're right--this is a must-read for all 2nd Amendment defenders.
VooDoo6Actual
06-15-11, 12:40
redacted.
woodandsteel
06-15-11, 13:36
Thank you for the link, Irish.
It will be interesting to see how the media covers this story on the nightly news.
It will be interesting to see how the media covers this story on the nightly news.
I'm tuned into Fox news now to see if they'll have anything on it, I'm rather skeptical.
If there is a bright side here, at least it will take the air out of the argument that US gun owners are responsible for gun crime in Mexico.
Moose-Knuckle
06-15-11, 20:48
I've been keeping tabs some what on this whole outrage. Holder's head should role for this as well at the BATFE.
You guys are forgetting, being a Democrat means living without consequences. Heads don't roll when Dems get up to this kind of crap.
I seriously doubt this investigation will do anything. Even if they find the proverbial smoking gun in the hands of higher ups in the administration the Obamunists will shuck and jive their way out of it. Hell, we'll probably start hearing how it's racist to investigate the first "black" Attorney General, and that'll be that. The Repugs will start falling over themselves trying to prove they 'heart' black people and the investigation will just kind of evaporate. In 6 months the official pol line will be, "What investigation?"
I downloaded the pdf and plan on reading it this weekend.
Doc Safari
06-16-11, 08:53
I watched the hearings on either CSPAN or CSPAN2 last night. It was obvious from the first few minutes that this whole operation was so ill-conceived and ill-advised that it definitely looks like a political maneuver to make damn sure that guns recovered in Mexico are traced to the US as a way to advance more anti-gun legislation. Either that or our government higherups really are that stupid.
Smuckatelli
06-16-11, 09:40
It was obvious from the first few minutes that this whole operation was so ill-conceived and ill-advised that it definitely looks like a political maneuver to make damn sure that guns recovered in Mexico are traced to the US as a way to advance more anti-gun legislation.
I think that this was the drive behind Fast & Furious. Letting the guns walk to another country that you don't have jurisdiction over and not involving that country's leadership.....
Back in 2009 Feinstein said:
Feinstein said she's going to hold off, for now, but vowed she would eventually push the issue. "I'll pick the time and the place, no question about that," she told Stahl.
Read more: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/04/09/60minutes/main4931769.shtml#ixzz1PSAMF841
From last Monday:
Feinstein was joined in her call by Sens. Charles Schumer, D-New York, and Sheldon Whitehouse, D-Rhode Island.
In a letter this month to Feinstein, the ATF acknowledged that the United States keeps no record of criminal firearms seized in Mexico and that "the Mexican government does not submit every recovered firearm to ATF for tracing."
http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/06/14/mexico.guns/index.html?iref=allsearch
Doc Safari
06-16-11, 09:52
If they can prove that this was collusion in our government to create or exacerbate the problem of US guns going to Mexico in order to advance legislation, then I'm optimistic it will do to the credibility of the gun control people what the leaked e-mails did to the credibility of the global warming people. In other words, we may be on the cusp of the gun control advocates being forever discredited in the eyes of the public.
As far as ATF scandals, this is already bigger than Ruby Ridge or Waco because we already know that ATF screwed up. That isn't even up for debate. The hearings are just to determine why.
QuietShootr
06-16-11, 10:09
I watched the hearings on either CSPAN or CSPAN2 last night. It was obvious from the first few minutes that this whole operation was so ill-conceived and ill-advised that it definitely looks like a political maneuver to make damn sure that guns recovered in Mexico are traced to the US as a way to advance more anti-gun legislation. Either that or our government higherups really are that stupid.
This. It's been about this from the beginning.
Don't trust any of these cocksuckers.
Either that or our government higherups really are that stupid.
Occam's razor
It was obvious from the first few minutes that this whole operation was so ill-conceived and ill-advised that it definitely looks like a political maneuver to make damn sure that guns recovered in Mexico are traced to the US as a way to advance more anti-gun legislation. Either that or our government higherups really are that stupid.
I agree with you that it is in fact a move to justify more gun laws and crack down on gun stores. However, are "they" the stupid ones or do they just believe that the vast majority of Americans are that stupid? Maybe it's a combination of the two.
Thanks for the link. I have been following this debacle since it first came to light. From the start the ONLY reasoning I could see behind this was as a way to push for more gun control. What other possible explanation could there be for anyone to even consider an operation like this.
However, are "they" the stupid ones or do they just believe that the vast majority of Americans are that stupid? Maybe it's a combination of the two.
Both I think
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
As for media coverage, I'd expect little to none. Aside from this not being up the MSM's alley for what they WANT to report, rep. Weiner is resigning, so that will be getting all the DC coverage while most of the populace goes on completely unaware of this entire conspiracy.
Doc Safari
06-16-11, 16:17
A question: how do we know when the next session for the hearing is?
I looked on the CSPAN website, and I couldn't see anything scheduled for today.
Does one simply have to check in with the website and/or the TV station every day to find out?
Not being familiar with how these hearings are scheduled I don't want to miss the next one but I don't know how to find out when it will be.
EDITED TO ADD: (Obviously if no further hearing sessions are planned there won't be anything listed).
A question: how do we know when the next session for the hearing is?
I get a lot of information, including this topic, from www.keepandbeararms.com. If they post anything there I'll make sure to get it on here ASAP. However, I'd recommend reading their news every day as most of it pertains to 2nd Amendment stuff.
The MSM is basically ignoring this story. The only motivation I can see for this operation is to get more guns into Mexico illegally, use them in more crimes, and then point the finger at the "lax American gun laws" as being the culprit in order to enact more gun laws.
The MSM will ignore the story because it will make the President look bad and it will be contrary to the "party line" that was being chanted that we in the U.S with our lax gun laws were to blame for so much violence.
This was a calculated and policitically motivated move on the behalf of this administration (just like other anti-gun moves) to bolster a case for a crackdown on weapons. The end result was that Mexican nationals were probably murdered and a USBP agent was killed by scum (I also have to wonder about the intitial reports of suspects being caught, etc..) and now the whole things has exploded like a shot bomb. The question is what is going to happen to the AG, BATFE director and will President Obama suffer?
There can be no doubt that this plan was known at the highest levels and there needs to be consequences. The Democrarts need to be reminded that those responsible for allowing this to happen are just as guilty as those who made the illegal purchases and smuggled the weapons, because they in fact enabled it, by not stopping it.
The question is what is going to happen to the AG, BATFE director and will President Obama suffer?
Nothing, nothing, and no.
Reference it's total lack of coverage by the MSM. This makes Watergate look like a fraternity prank. Iran-Contra also looks pretty thin compared to this. Americans have actually been murdered using the weapons smuggled under this program. Who knows how many Mexicans have died. This will surely go down as one of the biggest political scandal stories of the last 50 years and it is being COMPLETELY ignored.
Belmont31R
06-17-11, 15:41
Nothing, nothing, and no.
Reference it's total lack of coverage by the MSM. This makes Watergate look like a fraternity prank. Iran-Contra also looks pretty thin compared to this. Americans have actually been murdered using the weapons smuggled under this program. Who knows how many Mexicans have died. This will surely go down as one of the biggest political scandal stories of the last 50 years and it is being COMPLETELY ignored.
What do you expect when liberals run most of the media and education system?
Hell I am surprised this thread even lasted here...
Ok, so humor me for a second, as I'm still a little new to this whole politics thing:
How much do you want to bet that this Project Gun-whatever, is going to have some sort of bearing on this: http://blogs.forbes.com/larrybell/2011/06/07/u-n-agreement-should-have-all-gun-owners-up-in-arms/ (UN Arms Treaty)
In other words, they look at this fiasco and say that since we can't police our 'arms trade' effectively enough ourselves, that now we need global control from other sources. Or whatever magic solution they're touting.
I just think it's a little odd that they these both are getting such attention around the same time...
Or have I been playing with the tin foil to much?:jester:
ForTehNguyen
06-17-11, 16:50
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/exposed-the-secret-guns-sting-that-backfired-on-the-us-2297924.html
Belmont31R
06-17-11, 20:24
Ok, so humor me for a second, as I'm still a little new to this whole politics thing:
How much do you want to bet that this Project Gun-whatever, is going to have some sort of bearing on this: http://blogs.forbes.com/larrybell/2011/06/07/u-n-agreement-should-have-all-gun-owners-up-in-arms/ (UN Arms Treaty)
In other words, they look at this fiasco and say that since we can't police our 'arms trade' effectively enough ourselves, that now we need global control from other sources. Or whatever magic solution they're touting.
I just think it's a little odd that they these both are getting such attention around the same time...
Or have I been playing with the tin foil to much?:jester:
Gunrunner started under Bush.
Do a search, and you can read the thread about how I got a visit from the ATF after they searched dealer records, and came to my door with a list of guns I owned, my military records, pictures and information on my family like my sister, her husband, ect. They are going around going through FFL records, and getting names of people who buy semi auto pistols and rifles like AR's and AK variants.
The ATF agent who came to my door is Sean Kang. You can do a google search of what he has been up to. He was involved in a case here in Austin where a guy at a gun show did a FTF sale to an illegal alien unknowingly. They said he should have known because the guy was darker skinned, and spoke Spanish and was going through an interpreter. At the same time the gov was suing Arizona because they wanted to use similar criteria to detain suspected illegals. So convict a guy because 'he should have known' and sue AZ so their LEO's cant even ask those questions during traffic stops and detainment.
My experience was ok, and they respected the fact I didn't let them in the house. I did show them what I have since they already had a printed off list anyways they had compiled from dealers. I learned first hand the FFL record system is just a detached database. The ATF is prohibited by law from making a database of non NFA guns so they just use dealer records to do it for them, and they'll use whatever else they have access to for whatever info they need like your DOD records.
platoonDaddy
06-17-11, 21:31
From the hearings this program wasn't started under Bush. It was the Holder DOJ.
Following headline on FoxNews 6/17/2011:
Two AK-47s Used to Murder Mexican Lawyer Were 'Fast and Furious' Guns From U.S., Sources Say
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/06/17/two-ak47s-used-to-murder-mexican-lawyer-were-fast-and-furious-guns-sources-say/
****************
Great editorial read in Washington Times from Friday, April 29, 2011:
The Obama administration on Friday renewed its proposal to force gun dealers in four southwest border states to register multiple firearms sales. According to its filing in the Federal Register, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) wants to create detailed records of whenever anyone attempts to purchase more than one semi-automatic rifle in Arizona, California, New Mexico and Texas. The registry scheme highlights Department of Justice (DOJ) hypocrisy on the gun issue.
Full story: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/apr/29/obamas-gunrunning-hypocrisy/
Doc Safari
06-20-11, 14:46
Breaking news: ATF director may resign over this:
http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/06/20/us.fast.and.furious/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
ATF acting director may resign over Fast and Furious programFrom Terry Frieden, CNN
June 20, 2011 3:38 p.m. EDT
Washington (CNN) -- Kenneth Melson, acting director of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, is expected to resign under pressure, perhaps in the next day or two, in the wake of the controversy over Operation Fast and Furious, two senior federal law enforcement sources said Monday.
In the operation, straw buyers were allowed to purchase illegally large numbers of weapons, some of which ended up in the hands of cartels in Mexico.
Attorney General Eric Holder will meet Tuesday with Andrew Traver, head of the ATF field office in Chicago, about possibly becoming the agency's acting director, according to senior federal law enforcement sources, who are familiar with the details of the controversy.
The Justice Department refused comment. White House press secretary Jay Carney told reporters he had no new information on the issue.
Breaking news: ATF director may resign over this:
A prison sentence would be more appropriate.
Attorney General Eric Holder will meet Tuesday with Andrew Traver, head of the ATF field office in Chicago, about possibly becoming the agency's acting director, according to senior federal law enforcement sources, who are familiar with the details of the controversy.
This is not necessarily a good thing. Everything I've read about Traver paints him as anti-gun.
woodandsteel
06-20-11, 15:48
Breaking news: ATF director may resign over this:
A prison sentence would be more appropriate.
Most likely, he will be quietly rewarded for falling on his sword in an attempt to silence this story.
Doc Safari
06-20-11, 16:26
You can't tell me this operation didn't go all the way to the top. They were just too pleased with the "proof" that guns recovered in Mexico were a part of their operation, and I don't believe they were stupid enough to think that recovering the weapons would mean bringing in the cartel members.
Correct. The NRA has opposed his current appointment and the they have been putting pressure on the senate not to confirm him. He has ties to well known anti-gun groups.
This is not necessarily a good thing. Everything I've read about Traver paints him as anti-gun.
VooDoo6Actual
06-20-11, 17:01
redacted.
platoonDaddy
06-20-11, 17:03
This is not necessarily a good thing. Everything I've read about Traver paints him as anti-gun.
One of the must reads about "Traver" & his relationship with the Joyce Foundation
http://onlygunsandmoney.blogspot.com/2010/11/who-is-andrew-traver.html
Very bad news for gun owners and the 2nd Amendment.
Doc Safari
06-20-11, 17:28
Very bad news for gun owners and the 2nd Amendment.
An image flashed before my eyes of another buying panic. :(
MSNBC and the Christian Science Monitor just ran a story whose liberal bias is so striking that even I can't really deny it, and I'm normally not one of the people who thinks that the news is overtly slanted (subtly, yes, but generally not quite so overtly as this).
But beyond the fate of a government official, the saga of Fast and Furious has underscored a number of troubling trends on the US-Mexico border:
• The role US borderland gun shops play in feeding the region’s drug-related violence.
• How Mexico’s ruthless crime gangs use the weakly regulated US market to arm themselves.
• How the American gun lobby’s opposition to regulation has stifled government efforts to plug the flow of arms into Mexico.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43487612/ns/us_news-christian_science_monitor/
Words fail me. There is no mention of the gun shops protesting the sales either.
Moose-Knuckle
06-22-11, 01:30
MSNBC and the Christian Science Monitor just ran a story whose liberal bias is so striking that even I can't really deny it, and I'm normally not one of the people who thinks that the news is overtly slanted (subtly, yes, but generally not quite so overtly as this).
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43487612/ns/us_news-christian_science_monitor/
Words fail me. There is no mention of the gun shops protesting the sales either.
So, since we here in the States contribute so much to the crime rate in Mexico, when our we going to close the border to protect them already?
This is probably the most comprehensive list of articles on the subject if you're interested in reading more. http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-national/a-journalist-s-guide-to-project-gunwalker and part 2 http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-national/a-journalist-s-guide-to-project-gunwalker-part-two
And here's part 3 http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-national/a-journalist-s-guide-to-project-gunwalker-part-three
QuietShootr
06-22-11, 13:30
Gunrunner started under Bush.
Do a search, and you can read the thread about how I got a visit from the ATF after they searched dealer records, and came to my door with a list of guns I owned, my military records, pictures and information on my family like my sister, her husband, ect. They are going around going through FFL records, and getting names of people who buy semi auto pistols and rifles like AR's and AK variants.
The ATF agent who came to my door is Sean Kang. You can do a google search of what he has been up to. He was involved in a case here in Austin where a guy at a gun show did a FTF sale to an illegal alien unknowingly. They said he should have known because the guy was darker skinned, and spoke Spanish and was going through an interpreter. At the same time the gov was suing Arizona because they wanted to use similar criteria to detain suspected illegals. So convict a guy because 'he should have known' and sue AZ so their LEO's cant even ask those questions during traffic stops and detainment.
My experience was ok, and they respected the fact I didn't let them in the house. I did show them what I have since they already had a printed off list anyways they had compiled from dealers. I learned first hand the FFL record system is just a detached database. The ATF is prohibited by law from making a database of non NFA guns so they just use dealer records to do it for them, and they'll use whatever else they have access to for whatever info they need like your DOD records.
****ing excuse me? They did what?
****ing excuse me? They did what?
There's a thread here somewhere... or used to be on Belmont's ordeal with the ATF.
Here ya go. https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=60158
30 cal slut
06-24-11, 12:48
I'm not a Jon Stewart fan, but he is spot-on with this commentary.
:jester:
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-june-21-2011/the-fast-and-the-furious---mexico-grift
I'm not a Jon Stewart fan, but he is spot-on with this commentary.
I wonder how many taxpayer paid for ink cartridges they went through printing all those pages of redacted information, literally the whole page. When the whole page is black does it make that much sense to even print and distribute the thing?
Gunrunner started under Bush.
The fact that they were investigating "border" sales does not mean that this current fiasco itself (allowing the guns into mexico) started under Bush. They have been investigating "border" sales since forever without setting up stupid "stings" and facilitating sales to Mexico.
woodandsteel
06-25-11, 12:16
One source, who asked to remain anonymous, claimed Melson has said in high-level discussions he didn’t want to be the "fall guy" on the scandal.
"He is saying he won’t go," the source told the Los Angeles Times.
Another source who also requested anonymity reaffirmed claims that Melson is resisting pressure to step down.
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/06/25/atf-director-melson-reportedly-resisting-pressure-to-step-down/#ixzz1QJDdYwus
variablebinary
06-25-11, 14:55
****ing excuse me? They did what?
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_z2d4IxltHJI/SuTFr8OdMSI/AAAAAAAAB_c/uxKiIbYnIP8/s400/red_dawn_ObtainForm4473.png
QuietShootr
06-25-11, 19:12
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_z2d4IxltHJI/SuTFr8OdMSI/AAAAAAAAB_c/uxKiIbYnIP8/s400/red_dawn_ObtainForm4473.png
Yeah.
I have nothing good to contribute to this discussion, so I'm going to shut the **** up now.
Moose-Knuckle
06-26-11, 00:27
God damn right! :mad:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_z2d4IxltHJI/SuTFr8OdMSI/AAAAAAAAB_c/uxKiIbYnIP8/s400/red_dawn_ObtainForm4473.png
Cincinnatus
06-27-11, 11:00
Are there any limitatinons on BATF's access to a dealer's records, such as probable cause, etc. or can they just use them randomly and at will? Are there no restrictions on them retaining information taken from dealer's records?
This is probably the most comprehensive list of articles on the subject if you're interested in reading more. http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-national/a-journalist-s-guide-to-project-gunwalker and part 2 http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-national/a-journalist-s-guide-to-project-gunwalker-part-two
And here's part 3 http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-national/a-journalist-s-guide-to-project-gunwalker-part-three
Part 4 is now up and available. http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-national/a-journalist-s-guide-to-project-gunwalker-part-four
Doc Safari
06-28-11, 12:48
This is what happens when you tug on Superman's cape. One of the whistleblowers has been fired:
http://nation.foxnews.com/botched-gun-operation/2011/06/28/obama-administration-fires-atf-whistleblower
This is what happens when you tug on Superman's cape. One of the whistleblowers has been fired:
http://nation.foxnews.com/botched-gun-operation/2011/06/28/obama-administration-fires-atf-whistleblower
It sucks that he lost his job but hopefully these ongoing scandals will keep this in the spotlight.
This is what happens when you tug on Superman's cape. One of the whistleblowers has been fired:
http://nation.foxnews.com/botched-gun-operation/2011/06/28/obama-administration-fires-atf-whistleblower
I'm far from knowledgeable about the subject but don't we have laws that protect "whistleblowers" so that they won't be harassed, fired, etc. for doing the right thing?
I'm far from knowledgeable about the subject but don't we have laws that protect "whistleblowers" so that they won't be harassed, fired, etc. for doing the right thing?
From that article the ATF said that it is illegal to retaliate with punishment and the agent stated he is unsure why he got fired but it had to do with conduct from years prior.
Moose-Knuckle
06-29-11, 04:16
. . .but it had to do with conduct from years prior.
But of course it did. :rolleyes:
I hope this former agent employs a good attorney and hits the .gov where it counts. . .perceived public image.
platoonDaddy
07-01-11, 10:52
PHOENIX - Weapons linked to a questionable government strategy are turning up in crimes in Valley neighborhoods.
For months the ABC15 Investigators have been searching through police reports and official government documents. We’ve discovered assault weapons linked to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives’ controversial "Fast and Furious" case strategy have turned up at crime scenes in Glendale and Phoenix communities.
http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/local_news/investigations/weapons-linked-to-controversial-atf-strategy-found-in-valley-crimes
dookie1481
07-01-11, 12:05
Are there any limitatinons on BATF's access to a dealer's records, such as probable cause, etc. or can they just use them randomly and at will? Are there no restrictions on them retaining information taken from dealer's records?
I doubt there are any, but even if there were, they can always show up under pretense of an audit and you have to comply.
I suspected that this was the case and eventually we are going to have more fatalities due to the stupid and criminal actions by political commissars of this administration.
I wonder when we are going to have a local officer killed by these weapons? I remember commenting months back in a similar thread that some of these weapons were probably headed to Mexico, but I also believed that they were actually going to be used by criminals on our side of the border involved in criminal activity.
PHOENIX - Weapons linked to a questionable government strategy are turning up in crimes in Valley neighborhoods.
For months the ABC15 Investigators have been searching through police reports and official government documents. We’ve discovered assault weapons linked to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives’ controversial "Fast and Furious" case strategy have turned up at crime scenes in Glendale and Phoenix communities.
http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/local_news/investigations/weapons-linked-to-controversial-atf-strategy-found-in-valley-crimes
GermanSynergy
07-01-11, 13:42
A Maryland Democrat is proposing "tougher" gun laws to combat this sort of thing...... :rolleyes:
Yes, he is this stupid! (http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/06/30/us.fast.and.furious/index.html?iref=allsearch)
A Maryland Democrat is proposing "tougher" gun laws to combat this sort of thing...... :rolleyes:
Yes, he is this stupid! (http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/06/30/us.fast.and.furious/index.html?iref=allsearch)
Very predictable and I'm sure was actually part of the initial plan. He thinks this means we need tougher gun laws and I think it means we should get rid of the ATF.
GermanSynergy
07-01-11, 14:07
Very predictable and I'm sure was actually part of the initial plan. He thinks this means we need tougher gun laws and I think it means we should get rid of the ATF.
The irony would be delicious if these new laws were passed and used to prosecute the very people that advocate breaking them in the future.
More guns from ATF's F&F being used in AZ crimes. (http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/ATF-guns-fastandfurious/2011/07/01/id/402216)
I wonder when we are going to have a local officer killed by these weapons?
Or even worse, a local citizen.
platoonDaddy
07-03-11, 20:30
Vince Cefalu interview with Fox News 2nd July, interesting interview
http://video.foxnews.com/v/1036554378001/marchers-storm-ga-capitol-to-protest-new-immigration-law/?playlist_id=87937#/v/1034813961001/fired-for-exposing-fast-and-furious-scandal/?playlist_id=87937
In terms of value both lives are equal. In terms of political manipulation by the anti-gunners and other idiots the officer would be higher on the scale.
More guns from ATF's F&F being used in AZ crimes. (http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/ATF-guns-fastandfurious/2011/07/01/id/402216)
Or even worse, a local citizen.
Interesting. (http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-seattle/breaking-f-f-firestorm-mexican-officials-want-to-prosecute-u-s-officials)
Fox News is reporting today that some officials in Mexico would like to extradite and prosecute U.S. officials responsible for Operation Fast and Furious because it flooded their country with guns illegally, resulting in the deaths of possibly hundreds of Mexican citizens.
Video report here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ircWNLcFBVI
platoonDaddy
07-06-11, 13:33
6 Jul 2007 Video DOJ covering up
http://video.foxnews.com/v/1040953929001/sources-atf-director-claims-doj-obstructing-probe
6 Jul 2007 Video DOJ covering up
http://video.foxnews.com/v/1040953929001/sources-atf-director-claims-doj-obstructing-probe
Good find. Sounds like a complete cluster**** from the beginning to the end.
platoonDaddy
07-06-11, 15:52
Good find. Sounds like a complete cluster**** from the beginning to the end.
More on the cluster****!
The Justice Department is obstructing the congressional investigation of a U.S. law enforcement operation intended to crack down on major weapons traffickers on the Southwest border, according to the embattled leader of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.
Ken Melson, the acting director of the ATF, lobbed the accusation when he sneaked in for an interview with congressional investigators on July 4, two days ahead of his scheduled interview with the inspector general about the operation known as "Fast and Furious," Fox News has learned.
"If his account is accurate, then ATF leadership appears to have been effectively muzzled while the DOJ sent over false denials and buried its head in the sand," Rep. Darrell Issa, chairman of the Oversight and Government Reform Committee, said in a letter Tuesday to Attorney General Eric Holder. "That approach distorted the truth and obstructed our investigation."
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/07/06/justice-department-obstructing-fast-and-furious-gun-probe-atf-director-says/
Doc Safari
07-06-11, 16:01
Interesting. (http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-seattle/breaking-f-f-firestorm-mexican-officials-want-to-prosecute-u-s-officials)
Video report here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ircWNLcFBVI
I was waiting for this since the story first broke. Wait until the street protests and/or riots begin calling for the heads of these US officials.
This will snowball if the affected guns keep turning up at murder scenes and it becomes public.
This reporter knocks it out of the park! http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/07/06/justice-department-obstructing-fast-and-furious-gun-probe-atf-director-says/
In a separate development, congressional sources have learned that not only was U.S. taxpayer money being used to buy guns that were later sent to Mexico, but the main target of the investigation was actually a FBI informant and former drug dealer who had been deported years ago.
The alleged coverup involves three law enforcement agencies: the ATF, FBI and the DEA, or Drug Enforcement Administration.
According to sources, unbeknown to the ATF, the target of their operation was a FBI confidential informant, a fact that only became known to them in April of this year after an 18-month investigation that cost millions of dollars of tax dollars.
"They were going after someone they could never have," a source in Washington told Fox News. "The Mr. Big they wanted was using government money to buy guns that went to the cartels. The FBI knew it and didn't tell them."
The confidential informant is a former high-level drug dealer who had been deported by the DEA. The FBI, however, recruited him as a counter-terrorism informant, providing information on potential dirty bombs or Al Qaeda suspects moving through the border region.
The FBI informant was picked up on a DEA wiretap, and forwarded to the ATF.
OPERATION CASTAWAY.
It appears the ATF were doing the same thing in Honduras! http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-national/breaking-news-source-claims-atf-s-tampa-sac-walked-guns-to-honduras
Why would they run guns to Honduras? http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2011/07/honduras-why-would-atf-walk-guns-to.html
David Codrea and Mike Vanderboegh have broken most of what's been happening with the whole debacle and are the best source of information on the subject. III
43 weapons linked to F&F found in Phoenix traffic stop. http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/local_news/investigations/43-weapons-in-phoenix-traffic-stop-linked-to-atf-strategy
Thanks to SS for providing the initial link. At least several Congressman are keeping quiet about what they knew concerning Project Gunrunner before this all came to light. It's listed by name in the 2009 Recovery and Reinvestment Act. Go here http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h1/text?version=enr&nid=t0:enr:232t And to find this section hit CTRL F and type in Gunrunner or save yourself the work and read the quote below.
For an additional amount for ‘State and Local Law Enforcement Assistance’, $40,000,000, for competitive grants to provide assistance and equipment to local law enforcement along the Southern border and in High-Intensity Drug Trafficking Areas to combat criminal narcotics activity stemming from the Southern border, of which $10,000,000 shall be transferred to ‘Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, Salaries and Expenses’ for the ATF Project Gunrunner.
Man this gets worse by the minute.
platoonDaddy
07-08-11, 14:30
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=44717
Quote:
SEC. 2. PROJECT GUNRUNNER.
(a) In General- The Attorney General shall dedicate and expand the resources provided for the Project Gunrunner initiative of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives to identify, investigate, and prosecute individuals involved in the trafficking of firearms across the international border between the United States and Mexico.
(b) Activities- In carrying out this section, the Attorney General shall--
(1) assign additional agents of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives to the area of the United States adjacent to the international border between the United States and Mexico to support the expansion of Project Gunrunner teams;
(2) establish not fewer than 1 Project Gunrunner team in each State along the international border between the United States and Mexico; and
(3) coordinate with the heads of other relevant Federal law enforcement agencies and State and local law enforcement agencies to address firearms trafficking in a comprehensive manner.
(c) Additional Staff- The Attorney General may hire Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives agents for, and otherwise expend additional resources needed to adequately support, Project Gunrunner.
(d) Authorization of Appropriations- There are authorized to be appropriated $15,000,000 for each of fiscal years 2010 and 2011 to carry out this section.
*****************
H.R.495 - Southwest Border Violence Reduction Act of 2009
To authorize additional resources to identify and eliminate illicit sources of firearms smuggled into Mexico for use by violent drug trafficking organizations, and for other purposes.
http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h495/text
**************
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=320221
Just a day after U.S. Rep. Allen West, R-Fla., called for Attorney General Eric Holder's removal, alleging a White House connection to the "Project Gunrunner" that allowed weapons to be delivered to Mexican drug lords, confirmation has come that the program originated at the highest levels of the Obama administration.
Codrea and Pratt believe that the issue is going to get bigger as more details become public. Pratt believes that if Issa's committee continues its work, the entire scenario may rise to the level of Watergate.
"Just like Watergate became the only thing the Richard Nixon administration could think about, I think 'Fast and Furious' is coming to the point where it's going to be an all consuming issue," Pratt said.
"It's going to take the Obama regime off their stride and they're going to have to be playing defense."
The hits keep on coming... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PNhYk9NuNc&feature=player_embedded
platoonDaddy
07-09-11, 14:36
The hits keep on coming... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PNhYk9NuNc&feature=player_embedded
Holy ****!
Moose-Knuckle
07-09-11, 16:35
After Ruby Ridge and Waco, why is it a surprise to anyone the lengths at which the BATFE will go to justify their existence? POTUS wants to implement anti 2nd Amendment legislation, just look at his track record while in Chicago. He hasn't touched the topic openly for obvious reasons. Implementing Project Gun Runner was a slight of hand under the table preemptive move. Imagine how the left and media would outcry once civilian and LEO deaths skyrocket in the SWCONUS if firearms flooded the eager capable hands of thousands of drug running illegals?
Cause and effect. . .
platoonDaddy
07-10-11, 04:48
Radio interview with Von Spakovsky of Heritage - basically a rehash of all the previous post.
http://live.radioamerica.org/loudwater/player.pl?upload=12715&name=wnd
Guatamala is a mess , tottering toward full failed state status . The county gets a lot of attention from the UN and gun-grabber NGO's.
Century International Arms imports smallish numbers of USGI Garands and M1 Carbines into the US by way of Guatamala. CAI is the only US importer to be licensed to import USGI guns since the mid-1990's.
Nobody else can get ATFE and the State Department to issue the permits .
The last other company to import USGI guns was Intrac of Knoxville , Tn. The Intrac story is 2/3's down the page :
www.bavarianm1carbines.com/imports.html
ATF harrassed and intimidated Intrac employees into destroying thousands of completely legal USGI 15 & 30 round magazines .
Then the SecState revoked Intrac's import license . Completely lawless.
" ...part of the initial plan ..."
Very predictable and I'm sure was actually part of the initial plan. He thinks this means we need tougher gun laws and I think it means we should get rid of the ATF.
Yes.
Cause more crime , demand more gun laws - right out of the 1990's Clinton playbook.
During most the Klinton reign , there were no convictions or even inditments for felons making false statements when attempting to buy guns from FFL's. For around half of the Klinton years there were no charges brought against felons in possession.
The top bosses' policy never changed.
Project Exile and other state programs were local arangements between state officials and some ballsy Federal Attorneys who basically defied Janet Reno to fire them for enforcing the law and throwing violent felons in Federal prisons .
.
Belmont31R
07-11-11, 01:46
Are there any limitatinons on BATF's access to a dealer's records, such as probable cause, etc. or can they just use them randomly and at will? Are there no restrictions on them retaining information taken from dealer's records?
I haven't logged on her in weeks due to some medical issues Ive been having, family and busy with some things...
But to answer your question....no. I went to the dealer Id bought many of my firearms through here locally, and they had been in his store. Id purchased some lowers, and done transfers through him so I had quite a few 4473's there. They went through his records and pulled all the people with multiple firearms transactions for things like handguns and AR's/AK's.
What was worry some is the amount of data they had on me including other transactions I had made with other dealers...some years prior. They had obviously done their research on me. They had pictures of my sister, my BIL, my military records, and who knows what else. Aside from 4473's they had a printed out list of firearms Ive bought so they are keeping some kind of data base. It was like a spread sheet type thing with date, dealer, model, SN, ect. The lead agent showed up with a clip board type thing that had quite a bit of paper on it. As I showed him what I had on hand he was checking things off on his list, and then asked me about things I no longer had. It was only a few items not many. A couple lowers Id sold and a pistol Id traded in a few years ago.
So if you don't think they are watching what people are buying you are a fool. This same dealer I talked to got inspected not too long ago, and since he is a C3 dealer its a bit more expansive than most when it comes to inspections. Their records were completely jacked up with what he was supposed to have. They had issues with a can that was never delivered and destroyed at the factory. They wanted him to create a transfer form for the can going from the factory to him when it was destroyed and he never had possession of it. The inspectors are not actual agents or at least not on a regular basis. All these people do is go to dealers for checks. It took over a month before things got squared away because the ATF records were so jacked up for his NFA stuff. They originally told him he was supposed to have only about 50 NFA items when he had over 200. Then the destroyed can I mentioned they wanted him to create a transfer record of this can getting sent to him. He refused, of course, because then they'd say 'you signed the transfer form taking possession of it...where is it?".
As I said in the thread the agents who came by my house were at least friendly and weren't dicks to me. That same lead agent was involved in a case here in Austin. The guys name they convicted is Copeland. You can google search ATF Copeland and read all you want.
Belmont31R
07-11-11, 01:55
After Ruby Ridge and Waco, why is it a surprise to anyone the lengths at which the BATFE will go to justify their existence? POTUS wants to implement anti 2nd Amendment legislation, just look at his track record while in Chicago. He hasn't touched the topic openly for obvious reasons. Implementing Project Gun Runner was a slight of hand under the table preemptive move. Imagine how the left and media would outcry once civilian and LEO deaths skyrocket in the SWCONUS if firearms flooded the eager capable hands of thousands of drug running illegals?
Cause and effect. . .
In all fairness this gun runner was started under Bush. FF was Obama/Holder's idea, and quite a bit different than gun runner. Gun Runner is just going through FFL/dealer books looking for people purchasing multiple guns, and then paying them a visit. FF is the ATF telling dealers to sell to known straw purchasers even when the dealer has issues with the sales, and the ATF tells them to sell. They were supposedly supposed to track the firearms being sold, and then make arrests. What really happened was they, as it seems now, intentionally didn't track the guns being sold and they have ended up in crimes. I do think its to pad the whole 'American guns are the issue' line people are pulling but I think this was a top down operation involving multiple agencies which clouds the people on the ground from knowing the full picture of what was happening or what they were really involved with. Remember this came to light because of whistle blowers who figured out what was happening.
Moose-Knuckle
07-11-11, 02:57
In all fairness this gun runner was started under Bush. FF was Obama/Holder's idea, and quite a bit different than gun runner. Gun Runner is just going through FFL/dealer books looking for people purchasing multiple guns, and then paying them a visit. FF is the ATF telling dealers to sell to known straw purchasers even when the dealer has issues with the sales, and the ATF tells them to sell. They were supposedly supposed to track the firearms being sold, and then make arrests. What really happened was they, as it seems now, intentionally didn't track the guns being sold and they have ended up in crimes. I do think its to pad the whole 'American guns are the issue' line people are pulling but I think this was a top down operation involving multiple agencies which clouds the people on the ground from knowing the full picture of what was happening or what they were really involved with. Remember this came to light because of whistle blowers who figured out what was happening.
My bad Belmont, I should have stated Fast & Furious not Gun Runner (it gets tiresome to keep it all straight).
I don't bat for either party so whoever was in office at the time any of these operations doesn't bother me as far as party lines are concerned. Gun owners often forget the anti 2nd legislation that has been passed while a "conservative" Republican was sitting in the Oval office. This whole cluster f#$% is a travesty and ALL who were in a position of leadership should be held accountable, LOL yeah right.
Belmont31R
07-11-11, 09:33
My bad Belmont, I should have stated Fast & Furious not Gun Runner (it gets tiresome to keep it all straight).
I don't bat for either party so whoever was in office at the time any of these operations doesn't bother me as far as party lines are concerned. Gun owners often forget the anti 2nd legislation that has been passed while a "conservative" Republican was sitting in the Oval office. This whole cluster f#$% is a travesty and ALL who were in a position of leadership should be held accountable, LOL yeah right.
I have no doubt this was intentional from the top down. You had Obama, Holder, Nepalitano, Clinton, and others in the early days of Obama taking office blaming American gun laws. Then they announce what sounds just like FF with the agents being moved down there, and with multiple agencies I doubt the guys on the ground really knew what was going on. When at least one of them figured it out he turned whistle blower, and was then fired from the ATF.
And no Republicans are not the bastion for gun support they are made out to be. We basically had next to zero movement in the right direction when Bush and crew had control. In my state we are getting passed up by others on gun rights even though we have tons of R's in there right now. They did manage to pass CCW 'everywhere' for themselves just not for us peons.
Regarding this case on Fox News just now they were saying Agent Terry's family plans on suing the gov.
ATF Tampa - Walked guns to Honduras. 1000 guns provided to MS-13. http://nation.foxnews.com/gunwalker-scandal/2011/07/10/atf-tampa-division-walked-guns-honduras-and-ms13-gang-members
Regarding this case on Fox News just now they were saying Agent Terry's family plans on suing the gov.
good...i have never wanted more accountability than this huge garbage pile.
simply asinine & embarrassing...i just have this gut feeling it will turn out to be another finger pointing / trying to wipe your ass on a wagon wheel w/ no x marks the spot.
Doc Safari
07-11-11, 17:13
I have never been more optimistic in my life than right now that this will be the death rattle in the throat of ATF.
The hits keep on coming. :rolleyes:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/07/11/atf-to-require-information-on-frequent-gunbuyers-in-border-states/
ATF will retain the information and if no investigative leads have been realized after two years, it will be purged.
Bullshit.
Belmont31R
07-11-11, 18:36
Curious as to how the ATF/DOJ is allowed to "create" rules in which gun dealers are supposed to follow. Since when did law making transfer from the Congress to the Executive? It took a law to create the multiple transfer form for handguns why not a law for rifles?
The Office of Management and Budget today approved a federal rule that will require gun-dealers along the U.S southwest border to report multiple sales of semi-automatic weapons with detachable magazines.
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/gun-buyer-rule-approved-mexican-border-states/story?id=14049165
Im pretty disgusted by the term rules. We are supposed to be a nation of laws not 'rules' some agency dreams up and treats as if it were law. I mean where can rules stop? Why not a rule limiting ammo capacity? Why not a rule limiting sales to 1 gun a month? Just by the whims of some bureaucrats without going through Congress?
Curious as to how the ATF/DOJ is allowed to "create" rules in which gun dealers are supposed to follow. Since when did law making transfer from the Congress to the Executive? It took a law to create the multiple transfer form for handguns why not a law for rifles?
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/gun-buyer-rule-approved-mexican-border-states/story?id=14049165
Im pretty disgusted by the term rules. We are supposed to be a nation of laws not 'rules' some agency dreams up and treats as if it were law. I mean where can rules stop? Why not a rule limiting ammo capacity? Why not a rule limiting sales to 1 gun a month? Just by the whims of some bureaucrats without going through Congress?
I'm going to spitball here and guess that there is some line in the US Code that abuses the hell out of the commerce clause (like everything else) that improperly delegated authority to regulate everything under the sun related to FFLs as the AG sees fit.
Belmont31R
07-11-11, 18:43
good...i have never wanted more accountability than this huge garbage pile.
simply asinine & embarrassing...i just have this gut feeling it will turn out to be another finger pointing / trying to wipe your ass on a wagon wheel w/ no x marks the spot.
That is the problem with big government. They hide behind regulations, rules, and no one in this country has the might our government has. Just to take a case to the supreme court takes a ton of money no average joe has. They will spend millions up against a guy who makes 30k a year. Its out of control.
This is why we are supposed to have a small government because small government can be held accountable. They can pay out 50 million to Agent Terry's family, and its about the same as a low level accounting error in the grand scheme of things. I mean they gave billions to GM whats a few mil to this guys family? There are legions of gov employees, and its all to easy to pin it on some low level guy whos expendable.
I seriously doubt you will ever see anyone on trial for this entire escapade. In the slim chance there is it will be a throwaway person. I hope Im wrong but I don't see this going places. You only have, after all this time, a senator and a rep on this. Never hear any other people in Congress talking about it and there are over 500 of them. Only two want to take this issue on?
Belmont31R
07-11-11, 18:48
I'm going to spitball here and guess that there is some line in the US Code that abuses the hell out of the commerce clause (like everything else) that improperly delegated authority to regulate everything under the sun related to FFLs as the AG sees fit.
GCA 68 is where MOST of their authority comes from. Under GCA 68 it was a Congressional law that mandated the multiple sales form for handguns. There hasn't been a law passed since that allows DOJ/ATF to start creating rules that it took laws to before.
I think this is part of Obama's under the radar approach. Just use big government doing whatever it wants to push his agenda since Congress isnt going to go along with it.
So much for 3 co equal branches of government. Why have a Congress if the Executive just makes shit up as they go along?
Cincinnatus
07-11-11, 18:58
+1 to Belmont's sentiments on this page.
So much for 3 co equal branches of government. Why have a Congress if the Executive just makes shit up as they go along?
Exactly and well said
Belmont31R
07-11-11, 19:07
I have never been more optimistic in my life than right now that this will be the death rattle in the throat of ATF.
:lol: :rolleyes:
Spot on :
I have never been more optimistic in my life than right now that this will be the death rattle in the throat of ATF.
ATFE Reform Act of 2011
S.835
3 sponsors
H.R. 1093
133 sponsors
An earlier version of the ATFE bill was sponsored by over half of the House.
The gun-grabber movement is commiting suicide right before our eyes.
:suicide2:
Just to compare , the dreaded H.R.45 had one sponsor out of 635 peole in Congress.
All brought to you by the guy who wanted to put sterilants in drinking water and staple foods... and no, I'm not joking about this.
They'll all get what they deserve, in this life, or the world to come.
Doc Safari
07-12-11, 09:12
Spot on :
ATFE Reform Act of 2011
S.835
3 sponsors
H.R. 1093
133 sponsors
An earlier version of the ATFE bill was sponsored by over half of the House.
The gun-grabber movement is commiting suicide right before our eyes.
:suicide2:
Just to compare , the dreaded H.R.45 had one sponsor out of 635 peole in Congress.
Whether Congress really will have the guts to reign them in I think will depend to a large degree on how fast certain people need this to go away, like before a certain president's re-election bid.
The guns they allowed into the hands of the cartels could be turning up at crime scenes for years. The Mexican government is already calling for the responsible officials to stand trial in Mexico. This thing is growing by the day. I almost want to predict it will end up permanently poisoning relations between the US and Mexico.
The powers that be may need to sacrifice their favorite alphabet soup agency to turn the heat down. I think that fact alone will poison the ATF's long-term prospects and lead to their duties taken over by another agency.
Curious as to how the ATF/DOJ is allowed to "create" rules in which gun dealers are supposed to follow. Since when did law making transfer from the Congress to the Executive? It took a law to create the multiple transfer form for handguns why not a law for rifles?
Im pretty disgusted by the term rules. We are supposed to be a nation of laws not 'rules' some agency dreams up and treats as if it were law. I mean where can rules stop? Why not a rule limiting ammo capacity? Why not a rule limiting sales to 1 gun a month? Just by the whims of some bureaucrats without going through Congress?
Didn't you know this is a post 9/11 world and you should be living in fear? What better excuse to destroy the Constitution and limit your rights. They can take this bullshit along with the Patriot Act and all the other post 9/11 legislation and cram it!
Reichstagsbrandverordnung.
Congressman Issa nails it when it comes to the new "rules".
“This political maneuver seems designed to protect the careers of political appointees at the Justice Department and not public safety. It’s disconcerting that Justice Department officials who may have known about or tried to cover-up gunwalking in Operation Fast and Furious are continuing attempts to distract attention from clear wrongdoing. In Operation Fast and Furious, gun dealers didn’t need this regulation as they voluntarily provided ATF agents with information about suspected straw purchasers. In return for this voluntary cooperation, the Justice Department betrayed them by offering false assurances that they would closely monitor sales of weapons that dealers otherwise did not want to make.”
ATFE Reform Act of 2011
S.835
3 sponsors
H.R. 1093
133 sponsors ( up 5 )
An earlier version of the ATFE bill was sponsored by over half of the House.
Just to compare , the dreaded H.R.45 had one sponsor out of 635 people in Congress.
The other significant gun rights bill has the potential to open up the flow of literally millions of WW2 and Cold War era guns back to American owners. Talking 1911 pistols , M1 Carbines and Garand rifles .
The Collectible Firearms Protection Act
H.R. 615
106 sponsors ( up 5 )
S.381
10 sponsors
The "Justice Department" tainting witnesses...
The actual letter in PDF can be read here. http://oversight.house.gov/images/stories/2011-07-11_DEI__Grassley_to_Holder-DOJ_-_ATF_witness_shared_drive_access_due_7-18.pdf
http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-seattle/breaking-new-fast-furious-allegation-about-witness-access-to-documents
"A startling new allegation about possible tainting of potential witness testimony before the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform has surfaced in a letter sent yesterday by Congressman Darrell Issa and Senator Charles Grassley to Attorney General Eric Holder."
Eric Holder is a lying piece of shit. http://biggovernment.com/awrhawkins/2011/07/08/eric-holder-feigns-ignorance-of-operation-fast-and-furious-now-but-he-bragged-of-overseeing-its-implementation-in-2009/
"Last week, our administration launched a major new effort to break the backs of the cartels. My department is committing 100 new ATF personnel to the Southwest border in the next 100 days to supplement our ongoing Project Gunrunner, DEA is adding 16 new positions on the border, as well as mobile enforcement teams, and the FBI is creating a new intelligence group focusing on kidnapping and extortion."
---United States Attorney General Eric Holder speaking in Cuernavaca, Mexico, April 2, 2009
platoonDaddy
07-13-11, 23:29
Recap of many of the post in this thread:
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=321073
According to an 06/24/2011 article in the People's Daily : " Guatemala joins regional scheme on marking firearms " , all weapons registered in that country will be marked to avoid illegal arms trafficing. This " is part of the Inter-American Convention Against ... Illict Trafficing in Firearms ....Hillary Clinton announced .... that ... her country is ready to provide additional 300 million US dollars in aid to help... "
www.peoplesdaily.com.cn/90001/90777/90852/7419576.html
http://guncounter.bob-owens.com/2011/07/another-fast-and-furious-smoking-gun/
Looks like Issa is grilling the ATF about using F&F weapons to justify new powers, i.e. the multiple long gun reporting requirements.
http://guncounter.bob-owens.com/2011/07/another-fast-and-furious-smoking-gun/
Looks like Issa is grilling the ATF about using F&F weapons to justify new powers, i.e. the multiple long gun reporting requirements.
This is interesting.
William Newell, the ATF attache to Mexico, is one of those cited in the email.
Newell has not gone to Mexico since Fast and Furious broke, fearing felony arrest and prosecution as an accessory.
ForTehNguyen
07-14-11, 21:29
Texas Gun Store manager told by ATF to sell 8 AKs to a potential straw purchase. Of course she didnt. ATF said "they cant tell her to refuse the sale" Of course the guy disappears, ATF doesnt investigate
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qk1bPPivqsI&feature=feedu
Rattlehead
07-14-11, 21:47
Texas Gun Store manager told by ATF to sell 8 AKs to a potential straw purchase. Of course she didnt. ATF said "they cant tell her to refuse the sale" Of course the guy disappears, ATF doesnt investigate
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qk1bPPivqsI&feature=feedu
I think the woman (caller) in that youtube video is off mentally. This woman calls the ATF on someone that wants to buy 2,000 rounds of 223.? Then she wants the ATF to follow them?
She's full of shit.
Lots of people buy ammo by the 1000-rd case. Hardly indicative of a straw purchase.
8 AKs, that might be sketchy :)
Rattlehead
07-14-11, 22:13
Lots of people buy ammo by the 1000-rd case. Hardly indicative of a straw purchase.
Exactly.
VooDoo6Actual
07-15-11, 10:30
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e225/teehee321/FF1.png
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e225/teehee321/FF.png
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-15-11, 15:26
Anecdotal evidence for new laws- that's great government.
Has anyone looked thru the wiki-leaks documents for cables from Mexico to the US (or even other Central American countries) about guns? Is there a public database?
FOUND SOME!
FOund one database:
http://wikileaks.org/cable/2009/01/09MEXICO193.html
Lots of talk about grenades, IEDs and beheadings- but not ar15s.
http://wikileaks.org/cable/2009/10/09MEXICO3108.html
Seems like they can't get the Mexicans to keep any kind of coherent information database, but the Mexicans want access to American firearms records. Discussion of Tapachula Conference that covered movement of arms across southern border of Mexico more info at "(report at septel)"
http://wikileaks.org/cable/2009/10/09MEXICO3114.html
"Summary. Mexico is a awash with illegal firearms
from unknown suppliers that arm organized crime groups and
fuel escalating violence. Investigation and prosecution of
illegal arms dealers is thwarted by in-fighting among Mexican
institutions and legal restrictions that prevent the sharing
of important information. Successful prosecution of illegal
arms traffickers will depend on U.S. law enforcement agencies
gaining access to confiscated weapons to form actionable
intelligence and launch investigations."
"Claims by Mexican and U.S. officials that
upwards of 90 percent of illegal recovered weapons can be
traced back to the U.S. is based on an incomplete survey of
confiscated weapons. In point of fact, without wider access
to the weapons seized in Mexico, we really have no way of
verifying these numbers. "
:o
http://wikileaks.org/cable/2009/11/09MEXICO3376.html
Looks like the Mexican government can't keep track of its own weapons and the just evaporate.
Summary: Blue lantern Coordinators requested that Poloff
investigate the circumstances surrounding the recovery of an
U.S. licensed AR-15 rifle from a Mexican crime scene and
substantiate the chain of custody from the supplier to the
end user. The investigative branch of the Mexican Attorney
General (PGR CENAPI) used E-trace to determine that the last
legal point of sale was Bushmaster International, LLC.
Realizing that the recovered weapon was part of a USG
licensed sale, Bushmaster notified the State Department. The
Department does not track individual serial numbers of
weapons involved with USG licensed sales. Therefore, it is
reliant on supplier information to provide the basis of
investigations. This investigation tracked the chain of
custody for the weapon through the following entities: the
U.S. supplier, the U.S. manufacture representative in Mexico,
the Mexican customs-broker, the Mexican Army, and the State
Government of Michoacan.
Given the lack of accountability for
weapons once they arrive at the state level, U.S. law
enforcement agencies have fair reason to worry that a number
of weapons simply "disappear." Because USG access to
recovered weapons in Mexico remains limited, it is difficult
to gauge just how serious a problem this is and to what
extent these weapons turn up in the hands of criminal
organizations in Mexico.
http://wikileaks.org/cable/2009/03/09MEXICO880.html
While estimates vary regarding the
percentage of U.S. commercial weapons recovered in Mexico,
approximately 90 percent of all firearms seized and traced
are from the United States. In contrast, at least 90 percent
of military origin weapons ) such as grenades and light
anti-tank weapons ) are traced to Central American military
stocks.
They know the 90% number is bogus, but continue to use it. Duh, heavy weapons from the south? What would it take to put a couple of crates of AKs on top?
While recognizing the value of E-Trace, some GOM
officials have expressed frustration that the system only
traces to the first sale source, but the weapons are often
re-sold multiple times. Another complaint is with a lengthy
delay in translating the system into Spanish.
THe Mexicans want us to trace all gun purchases- and Obama tries to oblige them.
http://wikileaks.org/cable/2009/02/09MEXICO283.html
The U.S. is putting
considerable efforts into targeting money launderers in the
U.S., curbing our drug demand, and more effectively impeding
the flow of weapons into Mexico.
http://cablesearch.org/cable/view.php?id=10MEXICO77
Summary: Two recent arms trafficking conferences -- one
in September focused on the northern border (reftel) and a
subsequent one in Tapachula, looking at the southern border --
highlighted lax border controls and suggested ways to improve law
enforcement efforts to stem the tide of illegal guns. This cable
reports on the Tapachula discussion, and off-site trips to three
different border locations, which offered dramatic evidence of the
porous southern border and serious resource shortfalls, and helped
focus attention on ways to help Mexico, Guatemala and Belize
address shared border security challenges.
The final border crossing only served to re-inforce the
concerns that emerged from the first two sites the group visited.
One of the most memorable images of the day was the steady flow of
rafts transporting people and goods across the river illegally
within sight of the legal border crossing.
Except when they are facilitating the transfer.
Each country highlighted internal controls that regulate
the sale, distribution, and transport of weapons and ammunition,
drawing attention to sanctions against the unlawful transport of
weapons across any national boundary. Unfortunately, our visit to
three border crossings between Guatemala and Mexico in Chiapas
revealed neither country presently works seriously to enforce these
laws.
I know what our founding fathers would've done.
I know what our founding fathers would've done.
In their time the government used various incidents as a pretext to disarm the people.
By the rude bridge that arched the flood,
Their flag to April's breeze unfurled,
Here once the embattled farmers stood,
And fired the shot heard round the world.
The foe long since in silence slept;
Alike the conqueror silent sleeps;
And Time the ruined bridge has swept
Down the dark stream which seaward creeps.
On this green bank, by this soft stream,
We set to-day a votive stone;
That memory may their deed redeem,
When, like our sires, our sons are gone.
Spirit, that made those heroes dare
To die, and leave their children free,
Bid Time and Nature gently spare
The shaft we raise to them and thee.
-Ralph Waldo Emerson
I know what our founding fathers would've done.
At this point, I think anyone who understands the Constitution is thinking the same thing.
woodandsteel
07-18-11, 23:18
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/07/18/atf-chief-admits-mistakes-in-fast-and-furious-accuses-holder-stonewalling/
ATF Chief Admits Mistakes in 'Fast and Furious,' Accuses Holder Aides of Stonewalling Congress
WASHINGTON -- The head of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives has admitted that his agency, in at least one instance, allowed sales of high-powered weapons without intercepting them -- and he accuses his superiors at the Justice Department of stonewalling Congress to protect political appointees in the scandal over those decisions
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/07/18/atf-chief-admits-mistakes-in-fast-and-furious-accuses-holder-stonewalling/#ixzz1SWO6U4yy
I have no doubt this was intentional from the top down. You had Obama, Holder, Nepalitano, Clinton, and others in the early days of Obama taking office blaming American gun laws. Then they announce what sounds just like FF with the agents being moved down there, and with multiple agencies I doubt the guys on the ground really knew what was going on. When at least one of them figured it out he turned whistle blower, and was then fired from the ATF.
And no Republicans are not the bastion for gun support they are made out to be. We basically had next to zero movement in the right direction when Bush and crew had control. In my state we are getting passed up by others on gun rights even though we have tons of R's in there right now. They did manage to pass CCW 'everywhere' for themselves just not for us peons.
Regarding this case on Fox News just now they were saying Agent Terry's family plans on suing the gov.
My question is why only Grassley and Issa are working this issue? Where are the Blue Dog Democrats? Where are the other "Pro-Gun" senators and congressmen on this? We need a LOT more scrutiny on this than just two politicians and one news channel. :(
Belmont31R
07-19-11, 16:07
My question is why only Grassley and Issa are working this issue? Where are the Blue Dog Democrats? Where are the other "Pro-Gun" senators and congressmen on this? We need a LOT more scrutiny on this than just two politicians and one news channel. :(
If these were Republicans that did this it would be all over the news especially with the battle over the budget going on right now. Ive not heard a single comment made by Bohener, Cantor, or anyone in the Senate. We basically have conclusive proof the DOJ and underling departments sending guns into Mexico and then blaming our laws...an agent is dead, and we have TWO guys working on it?
What a shame. Democrats are WAY better politicians than Republicans could ever hope to be. I don't care about taking the high road or whatever it is they think they are doing. Hopefully tomorrow my rep has a live chat session like he often has on Wednesdays, and Ill ask about it during the online meeting. Especially since his constituents are getting knocks on their door asking to see peoples guns.
woodandsteel
07-19-11, 16:28
My question is why only Grassley and Issa are working this issue? Where are the Blue Dog Democrats? Where are the other "Pro-Gun" senators and congressmen on this? We need a LOT more scrutiny on this than just two politicians and one news channel. :(
While I am proud of the fact that Senator Grassley is my Senator, I am ashamed that I have not pressed the other Senator from Iowa (Harkin), or my Congressman for their input on this. (Not that contacting either would do much good)
In other news, if you are willing to dig around on the CNN website, you can see that action is still being taken.
'Fast and Furious' gun program draws Hill demand for documents
http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/07/18/congress.fast.and.furious/index.html?iref=allsearch
It appears as thought the FBI was more deeply involved than was initially reported. Report here. (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-cartel-guns-20110717,0,6972222.story)
Congressional investigators probing the controversial "Fast and Furious" anti-gun-trafficking operation on the border with Mexico believe at least six Mexican drug cartel figures involved in gun smuggling also were paid FBI informants, officials said Saturday.
The investigators have asked the FBI and the Drug Enforcement Administration for details about the alleged informants, as well as why agents at the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, which ran the Fast and Furious operation, were not told about them.
"Then it turned out that some of the ones they were zeroing in on actually, mostly likely were paid informants."
The official said at least half a dozen cartel figures were being paid by one U.S. law enforcement agency while they were being targeted by another.
While I am proud of the fact that Senator Grassley is my Senator, I am ashamed that I have not pressed the other Senator from Iowa (Harkin), or my Congressman for their input on this. (Not that contacting either would do much good)
In other news, if you are willing to dig around on the CNN website, you can see that action is still being taken.
Thanks for the link! I'll be emailing my congressman and both senators tonight! :mad:
ATF agents put 250 million illegal cigarettes on the streets. (http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2010/01/government_undercover_agents_p.html)
Undercover ATF agents in Virginia have funneled more than 250 million cigarettes onto the nation’s streets in the past three years through black market sales targeting smugglers...
ATF agents put 250 million illegal cigarettes on the streets. (http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2010/01/government_undercover_agents_p.html)
With no disparagement of the real law enforcement officers at BATFE (I'm talking about the political appointee clowns), I'm surprised that their motto hasn't been changed to "BATFE, we commit the crimes so you don't have to." :(
Do some research into Harkin on the net and his phony war stories and Stolen Valor (before the law was enacted). Several years back Soldier of Fortune did a complete write about him and how he gave interviews where he blatantly lied about his military service.
Makes you wonder who his constituents are and why they vote for him.
While I am proud of the fact that Senator Grassley is my Senator, I am ashamed that I have not pressed the other Senator from Iowa (Harkin), or my Congressman for their input on this. (Not that contacting either would do much good)
In other news, if you are willing to dig around on the CNN website, you can see that action is still being taken.
woodandsteel
07-20-11, 09:47
Do some research into Harkin on the net and his phony war stories and Stolen Valor (before the law was enacted). Several years back Soldier of Fortune did a complete write about him and how he gave interviews where he blatantly lied about his military service.
Makes you wonder who his constituents are and why they vote for him.
His war record was brought up during one of his campaigns a few years back. The media took the opportunity to accuse his opponent of negative campaigning. :rolleyes:
The Democratic Party is better organized in Iowa than the Republicans are. And, liberals like Harkin, enjoy strong support in the more urban areas. Unions have also done a lot to help Harkin out.
ATFE Reform Act :
S.835
5 sponsors ( up 2 )
H.R. 1093
141 sponsors ( up 8 )
An earlier version of the ATFE bill was sponsored by over half of the House.
Just to compare , the dreaded H.R.45 had one sponsor out of 635 people in Congress.
The other significant gun rights bill has the potential to open up the flow of literally millions of WW2 and Cold War era guns back to American owners. Talking 1911 pistols , M1 Carbines and Garand rifles .
The Collectible Firearms Protection Act
H.R. 615
109 sponsors ( up 3 )
S.381
10 sponsors
Do some research into Harkin on the net and his phony war stories and Stolen Valor (before the law was enacted). Several years back Soldier of Fortune did a complete write about him and how he gave interviews where he blatantly lied about his military service.
Makes you wonder who his constituents are and why they vote for him.
About half of the fakers I've seen had otherwise perfectly honorable service records before they added in the stuff about being a navy seal space shuttle door gunner.
QuietShootr
07-20-11, 12:33
I'm starting to think the only fair way to get a politician is to figure out some way to shanghai a successful businessman or academic who does NOT want to be a politician and force them to serve for 2 years - and they are NEVER eligible to serve again, thereby ensuring they have to live under whatever they pass while they're in office.
If someone was smart they would use FOIA and gather all of their facts along with the previous bogus stories and slam his face with it. I think there is less tolerance of this kind of stuff.
I would especially point out that anyone who had honorable service like he did, that then goes on to lie about his background shouldn't be trusted. I've never cared for him at all and when I heard about his antics, even less.
His war record was brought up during one of his campaigns a few years back. The media took the opportunity to accuse his opponent of negative campaigning. :rolleyes:
The Democratic Party is better organized in Iowa than the Republicans are. And, liberals like Harkin, enjoy strong support in the more urban areas. Unions have also done a lot to help Harkin out.
Video of Rep. Darrell Issa being interviewed. He discusses the letters sent to the heads of the Drug Enforcement Administration and the Federal Bureau of Investigation. He revealed that that he and his investigators already know the names of the confidential informants that may have been paid with taxpayer monies.
It is a very informative interview to say the least. (http://youtu.be/1PY213uWc9Q)
3rd hearing scheduled for next Tuesday. For information on watching it live go here: http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-seattle/bulletin-third-fast-furious-hearing-scheduled-next-tuesday
woodandsteel
07-25-11, 15:25
This should be an interesting hearing coming up tomorrow.
Feds Silent on How Convicted Felons Bought Guns in 'Operation Fast and Furious'
By William La Jeunesse & Laura Prabucki
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/07/25/feds-refuse-to-explain-why-proper-background-checks-werent-conducted-on-fast/#ixzz1T9O42MBQ
This reminds me of a Nicholas Cage movie, Kiss of Death (1995)
ATFE Reform Act :
S.835
4 sponsors
H.R. 1093
147 sponsors ( up 6 )
An earlier version of the ATFE bill was sponsored by over half of the House.
Just to compare , the dreaded H.R.45 had one sponsor out of 635 people in Congress.
The other significant gun rights bill has the potential to open up the flow of literally millions of WW2 and Cold War era guns back to American owners. Talking 1911 pistols , M1 Carbines and Garand rifles .
The Collectible Firearms Protection Act
H.R. 615
113 sponsors ( up 4 )
S.381
10 sponsors
watching the live feed from a link off foxnews.com...agent canino is not happy & I'm kinda diggin the grilling.
not sure if anything will come from all this, but entertaining.
Feds silent on multiple felons purchasing guns for Operation F&F. http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/07/25/feds-refuse-to-explain-why-proper-background-checks-werent-conducted-on-fast/?test=latestnews
Fox video report. http://youtu.be/D-PtJAjD4K4
watching the live feed from a link off foxnews.com...agent canino is not happy & I'm kinda diggin the grilling.
not sure if anything will come from all this, but entertaining.
http://www.foxnews.mobi/quickPage.html?page=22995&content=54157605&pageNum=3#r_http%3A//www.foxnews.mobi/quickPage.html%3Fpage%3D22995%26content%3D54157605%26pageNum%3D-1
This keeps getting bigger and bigger...
VooDoo6Actual
07-26-11, 11:31
redacted.
Doc Safari
07-26-11, 12:54
So, skimming that report, I don't see any hint that heads will roll in Justice or ATF.
What next?
Belmont31R
07-26-11, 12:54
Listening to the hearing today....
SA Newell says he told Kevin Oreilly in early 2010 who is part of the Natl Sec Council who briefs Obama on a daily basis about F&F. Obama denied any knowledge of the program earlier this year. Newell is friends with Oreilly.
DOJ knew guns were going into Mexico.
Newell says Mexico field office knew guns were going in. SA from Mexico says he didn't know until a few months ago, and didn't believe the first whistleblowers.
So, skimming that report, I don't see any hint that heads will roll in Justice or ATF.
What next?
Use your imagination...if there is indeed no accountability for this, the better question is where will the current admin stop.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I almost threw up in my mouth having to listen to the one gal talking more gun control every time she had the floor. Disgusting waste of time with the issue at hand...she is part of the problem.
Belmont31R
07-26-11, 14:26
Use your imagination...if there is indeed no accountability for this, the better question is where will the current admin stop.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I almost threw up in my mouth having to listen to the one gal talking more gun control every time she had the floor. Disgusting waste of time with the issue at hand...she is part of the problem.
That Newell guy needs to be in jail. He was specifically asked if their were ulterior motives to this investigation, he said no, when they have an email he got asking for cases to use for pushing for long gun reporting. Its all just too unbelievable to believe this all went down how the two in charge down there said it did, and that a field agent was the one who started all this. :rolleyes:
So the ATF allows guns into Mexico, and not just a handful. Even the ATF agent in Mexico was seeing a huge increase in guns coming from Phoenix through the trace system. Then they use cases of trafficking/straw purchases to push for more reporting sales.
I do think this was concocted at a very high level, I think Holder and Obama knew about it, and that the intention here was to use 'US guns going to Mexico' to push for more gun control. Obama, Hillary, Holder, ect have all gone to Mexico and talked about it. This was definitely on their radar. Newell admitted today he talked to the National Security Council guy about this investigation. They had gotten memos from high level DOJ as well as teleconferences and other communication. No way this stopped right before Holder and Obama and NO ONE told them. Not given the speeches they have made, places they have gone, and Obama saying he was working on it under the radar.
They tried to say today this was started by field agents. So a field agent sat there one day, and said Im going to get this big program running all on my own, spend hundreds of thousands of tax money, and no one above the very bottom came up with this? They are lying through their teeth.
I couldn't believe that woman thing at the end. She basically said we can control guns however we want, and that Heller was activism. At least she doesn't get to vote.
Belmont31R
07-26-11, 16:38
This is getting good...WhiteHouse says emails between SA Newell and NSC Oreilly were not "specifically" about FF, and then later said they don't know what email he was referring to.
Again....with all the attention the administration put on guns in mexico almost as soon as he took over does anyone really think BOTH Holder and Obama had ZERO knowledge of this investigation prior to just a few months ago? Its hard to imagine they would NOT know about a program this size meant to take down cartels in MX and large gun smuggling operations in the US. This entire program was not mentioned to them ONCE? That doesn't even come close to fitting into any logical pattern especially since the anti-gun crew has been all over the 90% of guns come from the US lie the ATF keeps repeating (they just leave out the fact MX is only sending back guns for tracing obviously American made and that government sales of guns to MX is in the hundreds of thousands at least).
Doc Safari
07-26-11, 16:51
Again....with all the attention the administration put on guns in mexico almost as soon as he took over does anyone really think BOTH Holder and Obama had ZERO knowledge of this investigation prior to just a few months ago? Its hard to imagine they would NOT know about a program this size meant to take down cartels in MX and large gun smuggling operations in the US. This entire program was not mentioned to them ONCE? That doesn't even come close to fitting into any logical pattern especially since the anti-gun crew has been all over the 90% of guns come from the US lie the ATF keeps repeating (they just leave out the fact MX is only sending back guns for tracing obviously American made and that government sales of guns to MX is in the hundreds of thousands at least).
I think you answered your own question.
The main unanswered question in my mind is whether the Republicans have the testicular fortitude to go after the people involved, or will they be just a bunch of lily-livered little girlie boys like on the Clinton impeachment.
(I do give them decent marks on standing their ground in the budget battle, though).
Belmont31R
07-26-11, 16:59
I think you answered your own question.
The main unanswered question in my mind is whether the Republicans have the testicular fortitude to go after the people involved, or will they be just a bunch of lily-livered little girlie boys like on the Clinton impeachment.
(I do give them decent marks on standing their ground in the budget battle, though).
They got Newell to say under oath he would get them all of the names, dates/times, agency, ect who were involved. They grilled him pretty hard today. At first he said "ill do my best" and then they made him say he would provide the information. They got some new names and connections, today, and I think Issa wants these people to hang themselves. They've been getting called out on conflicting testimony, and several people commented about how they were getting non answers, ect. People get pissed when they think they are getting the run around, and fuel their desire to see this through. Even the agents today were battling amongst themselves and basically creating situations where either one of them is lying. One guy said this guy knew this at this time and another says he didn't. Half the agents say it should have been shut down immediately once they knew guns were getting into MX.
I doubt Newell will sleep good tonight...well maybe so. He seemed pretty attached to this whole thing and the desire for more money and anti-gun laws. Quite the candidate to run this thing in PHX.
Obama Administration intimidating witnesses in ATF gun probe. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/jul/26/issa-atf-warns-witnesses-to-limit-testimony/
At least 122 firearms from a botched U.S. undercover operation have been found at crime scenes in Mexico or intercepted en route to drug cartels there, a Republican congressional report issued on Tuesday said.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/07/26/us-usa-guns-mexico-idUSTRE76P33T20110726
I think you answered your own question.
The main unanswered question in my mind is whether the Republicans have the testicular fortitude to go after the people involved, or will they be just a bunch of lily-livered little girlie boys like on the Clinton impeachment.
I have a feeling that this is going to be the case in the end.
(I do give them decent marks on standing their ground in the budget battle, though).
Until it gets down to zero hour, then they'll cave in like they did during the gov't shutdown episode.
VooDoo6Actual
07-27-11, 08:44
redacted.
VooDoo6Actual
07-27-11, 08:44
redacted.
Find name , address , digits for your Congress critters . Just type in your zip and go from there.
www.congress.org/communicate
It's all about votes for those guys , the squeaking wheel gets the grease.
VIDEO: Senator Grassley discussing F&F on Fox. http://onlygunsandmoney.blogspot.com/2011/07/senator-grassley-on-todays-hearing-and.html
Senator Chuck Grassley (R-IA) appeared on FoxNews this afternoon and was interviewed by Jenna Lee. When asked about the gunwalked firearms still out there, Grassley said, "Remember, you are never going to sweep all those guns out there." He also didn't think much of SAC William Newell's assertion that they never intended for the guns to cross the border.
Belmont31R
07-28-11, 15:30
VIDEO: Senator Grassley discussing F&F on Fox. http://onlygunsandmoney.blogspot.com/2011/07/senator-grassley-on-todays-hearing-and.html
While I think the intention was to let them cross to pad the numbers, and create cases to prove something Newell's explanation yesterday was they lost track of the guns because they lacked the resources. So then why are you facilitating straw purchasing if you don't have the resources to follow them? What good does it do the investigation if you don't?
That was his explanation. Other agents testified they were told to break off tracking the suspects with no explanation. After that the guns were never seen again until 'some' have showed up at crime scenes like Agent Terry's murder.
I bet those agents who work for Newell feel real good about him right now seeing as how he pinned the whole thing on them and said the investigation started with them. He even threw one of the agents under the bus who was sitting right next to him at the hearing.
While I think the intention was to let them cross to pad the numbers, and create cases to prove something Newell's explanation yesterday was they lost track of the guns because they lacked the resources. So then why are you facilitating straw purchasing if you don't have the resources to follow them? What good does it do the investigation if you don't?
That was his explanation. Other agents testified they were told to break off tracking the suspects with no explanation. After that the guns were never seen again until 'some' have showed up at crime scenes like Agent Terry's murder.
I bet those agents who work for Newell feel real good about him right now seeing as how he pinned the whole thing on them and said the investigation started with them. He even threw one of the agents under the bus who was sitting right next to him at the hearing.
I would have turned and punched him right in the mouth! :mad:
Spot on .
While I think the intention was to let them cross to pad the numbers, and create cases to prove something Newell's explanation yesterday was they lost track of the guns because they lacked the resources. So then why are you facilitating straw purchasing if you don't have the resources to follow them?
........... ( Snip for Brevity )..........
That was his explanation. Other agents testified they were told to break off tracking the suspects with no explanation. After that the guns were never seen again until 'some' have showed up at crime scenes like Agent Terry's murder.
...... ( SfB )..........
This thing is gonna be as big as Watergate.
It's just starting and people are ratting each other out already.
Belmont31R
07-28-11, 20:05
Spot on .
This thing is gonna be as big as Watergate.
It's just starting and people are ratting each other out already.
Not amusing but you just know things are not right when two agents are sitting next to each other at the big chairs, and one of them is lying. The guy Newell from PHX says the guys in MX knew. Guys in MX said we had no idea, and didn't learn of it until we saw it on the news. I think, watching the hearings, you can tell which ones are good and which ones are bad. I hate to say it but that Newell guy is a ****ing liar and a half. He knows but wont say.
For the record here..I made a thread about my own ATF visit and even though I didn't agree with the premise I was still respectful of them but didn't let them in the house..they were still nice enough to me, and that was that. This FF is a spinoff of that program which led them to my house. I fully support arms trafficking laws, and we don't need our domestic gun manufactures selling to terrorists and drug cartels. Its obviously within the confines of the law for a nation to regulate international sales. But all this is just way too convenient for nothing to be convicted. Heads of state and major departments within our gov making the speeches they did, going down there to talk about this issue, and we're supposed to believe this plan was hatched by some lowly field agent? They had no idea about this until everyone else did this year? Give me a break. They knew full well what was going on, they had internet connected cameras while the sales were taking place, and the lead agent in PHX is FRIENDS with a guy on the national security council who briefs Obama daily. BS they didn't know. They were having VTC's with top DOJ staff, and the DOJ knew guns were getting into MX.
What I don't understand is why don't gun advocates with deep pockets climb to the highest loft and beat the drum on this? No doubt it'll will be swept under the rug. Why isn't there a paid 1 hr special on prime time tv and radio telling about this? Where's the Anti-Soros Rich Guy who supports the Constitution?
Sometimes I think we could benefit from the playbook of the Civil Rights push of the 50's-now. They were/are proactive. We are for the most part reactive. My Grandfather fought in WWII and loved our country to the bone. In a lot of ways I am glad his generation aren't around to witness this mess we are in today as it would break their hearts I'm sure.
What I don't understand is why don't gun advocates with deep pockets climb to the highest loft and beat the drum on this? No doubt it'll will be swept under the rug. Why isn't there a paid 1 hr special on prime time tv and radio telling about this? Where's the Anti-Soros Rich Guy who supports the Constitution?
Sometimes I think we could benefit from the playbook of the Civil Rights push of the 50's-now. They were/are proactive. We are for the most part reactive. My Grandfather fought in WWII and loved our country to the bone. In a lot of ways I am glad his generation aren't around to witness this mess we are in today as it would break their hearts I'm sure.
The major media outlets wouldn't sell it to pro-gunners any more than they would sell airtime to NAMBLA for espousing the virtues of man-boy love. :(
woodandsteel
07-31-11, 11:40
Here is a fairly long article that the AP published out about the Fast and Furious case.
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_THE_BORDER_GUN_SCANDAL?SITE=AZPHG&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
Here is a fairly long article that the AP published out about the Fast and Furious case.
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_THE_BORDER_GUN_SCANDAL?SITE=AZPHG&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
No mention is made of the ATF emails suggesting the F&F guns could be used to justify more gun control regulations, and the tout the multiple long gun reporting requirement as progress.
Belmont31R
07-31-11, 12:32
Agent McMahon is getting a promotion....something about leading the internal affairs department.
VooDoo6Actual
08-02-11, 00:49
redacted.
Agent McMahon is getting a promotion....something about leading the internal affairs department.
OMFG!!!!
Why don't they just go into Congress and piss on the carpet! How the hell do we reign in people like this??? :mad:
Weekly Update.
ATFE Reform Act of 2011 :
S.835
4 sponsors
H.R. 1093
154 sponsors ( up 7 )
An earlier version of the ATFE bill was sponsored by over half of the House.
Just to compare , the dreaded H.R.45 had one sponsor out of 635 people in Congress.
The other significant gun rights bill has the potential to open up the flow of literally millions of WW2 and Cold War era guns back to American owners. Talking 1911 pistols , M1 Carbines and Garand rifles .
The Collectible Firearms Protection Act
H.R. 615
118 sponsors ( up 5 )
S.381
10 sponsors
The Senate isn't doing much . What's up with them?
Why are we allowing these people to make deals? And then the President and the rest of the shitbags on Capitol Hill claim that we need to "get tough" on criminals, especially in offenses involving firearms.
Looks like the Feds aren't the only ones running guns to cartels in Mexico. The Mayor, Police Chief and who knows how many other people are guilty down in NM. http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/01/us-usa-mexico-guns-idUSTRE7706CY20110801
Looks like the Feds aren't the only ones running guns to cartels in Mexico. The Mayor, Police Chief and who knows how many other people are guilty down in NM. http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/01/us-usa-mexico-guns-idUSTRE7706CY20110801
After paying the police chief for "protection," Gutierrez bought weapons, tactical gear and body armor, and smuggled the items to the Ciudad Juarez-based La Linea drug cartel, said Assistant U.S. Attorney Steve Spitzer. At least some of the trips were made using village vehicles, for which Gutierrez paid the former mayor, Spitzer said.
Why are we allowing these people to make deals? And then the President and the rest of the shitbags on Capitol Hill claim that we need to "get tough" on criminals, especially in offenses involving firearms.
Personally I think they should be tried for treason.
VooDoo6Actual
08-05-11, 14:27
duplicate post computer glitch.
Nathan_Bell
08-05-11, 14:54
Personally I think they should be tried for treason.
Giving a neighboring country cause belli could be classified as a high crime I imagine.
VooDoo6Actual
08-05-11, 15:16
redacted.
Belmont31R
08-05-11, 21:28
Another promotion...this time for Newell:
he’s been named special assistant to the ATF Assistant Director for the Office of Management in Washington.
:p
woodandsteel
08-11-11, 10:41
This raised my blood pressure to an unhealthy level this morning.
U.S. Attorney's Office Rejects Family of Murdered Border Patrol Agent as Crime Victims
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/08/11/us-attorneys-office-rejects-family-slain-border-patrol-agent-as-crime-victims/#ixzz1UjcOmuez
In a surprise move in a controversial case, the U.S. Attorney's Office in Arizona is opposing a routine motion by the family of murdered Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry to qualify as crime victims in the eyes of the court
However in this case, U.S. Attorney Dennis Burke argues because the family was not "directly or proximately harmed" by the illegal purchase of the murder weapon, it does not meet the definition of "crime victim" in the Avila case. Burke claims the victim of the Avila's gun purchases, "is not any particular person, but society in general."
This is an outrage! I think investigators are only afraid of what Brian Terry's family may say.
It's usually the defense that opposes the victim status.
This raised my blood pressure to an unhealthy level this morning.
This is an outrage! I think investigators are only afraid of what Brian Terry's family may say.
It's usually the defense that opposes the victim status.
In this case, the defense IS the U.S. Government! They're acting exactly like any other criminal enterprise in this event. :(
Gunwalking in Texas too? http://blog.chron.com/txpotomac/2011/08/another-fast-and-furious-cornyn-demands-information-on-atf-operation-in-texas/
SeriousStudent
08-12-11, 22:39
Gunwalking in Texas too? http://blog.chron.com/txpotomac/2011/08/another-fast-and-furious-cornyn-demands-information-on-atf-operation-in-texas/
I bet that some folks at the BATFE are fervently praying that Perry's candidacy for President does not succeed. He's as pro Second Amendment as any politician I have ever seen. I am just waiting for him to answer a reporter's question, about what he would do.......
Belmont31R
08-13-11, 01:08
I bet that some folks at the BATFE are fervently praying that Perry's candidacy for President does not succeed. He's as pro Second Amendment as any politician I have ever seen. I am just waiting for him to answer a reporter's question, about what he would do.......
That gives them another year and half to run the drive wipers/cleaners and paper shredders. Hell Im just a dude on the internet, and have a 2 minute downloadable program that is commonly available that does 35 passes over deleted data and empty space. Run it 5 times, and you have 175 passes over deleted/empty space.
Thomas M-4
08-13-11, 01:46
That gives them another year and half to run the drive wipers/cleaners and paper shredders. Hell Im just a dude on the internet, and have a 2 minute downloadable program that is commonly available that does 35 passes over deleted data and empty space. Run it 5 times, and you have 175 passes over deleted/empty space.
Belmont31 This is not a smart ass comment so please don't take it as such. Unless something has changed which is a possibility all those programs do is erase the FAT / File -Allocation- Table The information could still be on the hard drive unless it has been over written.
But you are rite they would still have a year 1 1/2 to do what ever and I doubt they would find anything incriminating [ unless some body screwed up] all the IT personal would have to do is delete files then swap all other files to another hard drive.
Belmont31R
08-13-11, 01:56
Belmont31 This is not a smart ass comment so please don't take it as such. Unless something has changed which is a possibility all those programs do is erase the FAT / File -Allocation- Table The information could still be on the hard drive unless it has been over written.
But you are rite they would still have a year 1 1/2 to do what ever and I doubt they would find anything incriminating [ unless some body screwed up] all the IT personal would have to do is delete files then swap all other files to another hard drive.
The programs out now do over write the drives. I can select the number of passes over the HD up to 35X, and it even will do thumb drives.
I can't find the case right now but the program (CCleaner among others) has been brought up in criminal trials. CCleaner does not just delete the "links" to the location on the HD. It deletes, and then overwrites the drive up to 35X. If you run it, and then run it again that is 70X. Its not 100% foolproof but is A LOT better than just hitting delete and empty recycle bin.
There are also other programs for encryption of HD's where the gov is trying to compel defendants to give up passwords. There are encryptions now, a few minutes of downloading, that would take more than all the known energy in the universe to crack. Even if you don't want to delete things....
Thomas M-4
08-13-11, 02:29
The programs out now do over write the drives. I can select the number of passes over the HD up to 35X, and it even will do thumb drives.
I can't find the case right now but the program (CCleaner among others) has been brought up in criminal trials. CCleaner does not just delete the "links" to the location on the HD. It deletes, and then overwrites the drive up to 35X. If you run it, and then run it again that is 70X. Its not 100% foolproof but is A LOT better than just hitting delete and empty recycle bin.
There are also other programs for encryption of HD's where the gov is trying to compel defendants to give up passwords. There are encryptions now, a few minutes of downloading, that would take more than all the known energy in the universe to crack. Even if you don't want to delete things....
Ahh I see if it over rights the sectors on the HD then it it is for all purpose it is deleted:thank_you2:
Things do change very fast with IT one of the reasons I don't keep up with it. If I had to still delete my HD it would still be 90's Old school style :suicide:style:sarcastic:
Belmont31R
08-13-11, 02:40
Ahh I see if it over rights the sectors on the HD then it it is for all purpose it is deleted:thank_you2:
Things do change very fast with IT one of the reasons I don't keep up with it. If I had to still delete my HD it would still be 90's Old school style :suicide:style:sarcastic:
All I said was its better than windows delete which just deletes the file path, and there are programs which actually do overwrite the space on the HD the data was stored.
Of course physical altercation is best....IE melted down into slag.
Im not saying its FOOLPROOF but there have been court cases revolving around such programs. I don't have anything on my computer but family photos, gun pictures Ive saved, some personal docs like resumes, birth certs, ect. I, too, don't really "keep up" on this stuff but have come across enough to know there are programs out there that do work based on the court cased Ive also come across, and are easily downloadable within a couple minutes.
Thomas M-4
08-13-11, 02:54
Belmont31R
Of course physical altercation is best....IE melted down into slag.
I was just told to put a a pistol slug into it :sarcastic:
VooDoo6Actual
08-13-11, 07:11
redacted.
SeriousStudent
08-13-11, 08:29
Belmont31 This is not a smart ass comment so please don't take it as such. Unless something has changed which is a possibility all those programs do is erase the FAT / File -Allocation- Table The information could still be on the hard drive unless it has been over written.
But you are rite they would still have a year 1 1/2 to do what ever and I doubt they would find anything incriminating [ unless some body screwed up] all the IT personal would have to do is delete files then swap all other files to another hard drive.
Belmont31R is correct. Google "Killdisk". Tis' a handy thing to have around.
At my employer, we feed all old drives through a metal shredder, and turn them into tiny metal fragments. And we go through a LOT of drives.
And my comment about Perry was not regarding his discovery efforts. I think he would altering the functioning of that agency. I would prefer that the good folks inside that organization do important work, like help catch terrorists and quickly approve Form 1's. ;)
dookie1481
08-13-11, 10:27
All I said was its better than windows delete which just deletes the file path, and there are programs which actually do overwrite the space on the HD the data was stored.
Of course physical altercation is best....IE melted down into slag.
Im not saying its FOOLPROOF but there have been court cases revolving around such programs. I don't have anything on my computer but family photos, gun pictures Ive saved, some personal docs like resumes, birth certs, ect. I, too, don't really "keep up" on this stuff but have come across enough to know there are programs out there that do work based on the court cased Ive also come across, and are easily downloadable within a couple minutes.
DBAN?
platoonDaddy
08-13-11, 15:42
Believe this is an extension of DOJ overreaching:
FBI wants businesses watching for customers paying with cash
Government calls buying 'night flashlights,' making 'extreme religious statements' indicators of terrorism
An FBI spokesman in Denver confirmed to WND that the flyer is genuine.
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=332925
QuietShootr
08-13-11, 16:11
I was just told to put a a pistol slug into it :sarcastic:
Will not do it. A software wipe like DBAN would be far better than just punching a couple of holes in it or shattering it. If the pieces are bigger than <redacted because of NDA>, the data can be recovered. Trust me on this.
...another non credible source??
http://www.borderlandbeat.com/2011/08/insider-cia-orchestrated-operation-fast.html
Insider: CIA Orchestrated Operation Fast and Furious
~
Thomas M-4
08-13-11, 21:19
Will not do it. A software wipe like DBAN would be far better than just punching a couple of holes in it or shattering it. If the pieces are bigger than <redacted because of NDA>, the data can be recovered. Trust me on this.
Roger that.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-atf-guns-20110816,0,7676977.story
All three of the immediately-involved douchebags (Newell, Voth and McMahon) got promotions.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-atf-guns-20110816,0,7676977.story
All three of the immediately-involved douchebags (Newell, Voth and McMahon) got promotions.
What the ****?!?!?! They should be in prison, not getting promotions! The patients are in charge of the asylum...
VooDoo6Actual
08-16-11, 11:17
redacted.
Multiple long gun purchase form went into effect for the border states as of Aug 14th.
dookie1481
08-28-11, 21:43
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/08/27/issa-goes-to-war-with-new-york-times-over-false-story/?test=latestnews
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/08/27/issa-goes-to-war-with-new-york-times-over-false-story/?test=latestnews
There is no accountability for our "elected leaders" in this country.
Then again, look at the retractions they've already printed:
In a letter to Issa on Thursday, Baquet said the newspaper had finished its review and would issue two more corrections: one for stating Issa made $357,000 off the sale of a mutual fund in 2008 when he actually lost $125,000. And another for the medical office complex, whose property value remained the same after Issa secured federal funding to widen a road alongside the plaza. Baquet blamed inaccurate public records for both errors and continued to defend the story.
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/08/27/issa-goes-to-war-with-new-york-times-over-false-story/#ixzz1WO7W4GEk
There's a big difference between making $357,000 and losing $125,000. Plus, it's not like the Times has the world's best record when it comes to political hit pieces and fabricated journalism. Is Issa making money off his job? Probably. Most any elected official is going to have some temptation to do so, and I don't doubt many wet their beaks in some fashion or another. But if the Times has to stoop to fabricating conflicts, then it probably means that either Issa's mostly clean, or he's so good that they can't dig up any real dirt on him.
dookie1481
08-29-11, 01:31
Can you imagine the backlash that would come from Fox News fabricating something of this magnitude?
woodandsteel
08-30-11, 10:38
I don't know what to think of this.
Sources: ATF Director to Be Reassigned Amid Fast and Furious Uproar
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/08/30/sources-atf-director-to-be-reassigned-amid-fast-and-furious-uproar/#ixzz1WWjkwWlG
Sounds like a way to get rid of one distraction and put a more anti-gun person in his place.
I don't know what to think of this.
A half-hearted, pathetic attempt at slapping their hands. What a joke.
platoonDaddy
08-30-11, 12:33
Acting ATF Director Kenneth Melson, inset, has been reassigned to a lesser post in the Justice Department and the U.S. attorney for Arizona is also 'out,' sources tell Fox News, as fallout from Operation Fast and Furious reaches new heights.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/08/30/sources-atf-director-to-be-reassigned-amid-fast-and-furious-uproar/
http://www.azcentral.com/news/election/azelections/articles/2011/08/30/20110830us-attorney-arizona-burke-resigns30-ON.html
US attorney for AZ resigns effective immediately, saying it's time to pursue other career goals.
Belmont31R
08-30-11, 12:54
They need to be in jail not resigning or getting transferred.
Word is Agent Burke is also going to DOJ.
Things are VERY wrong when a government official is allowed to resign, get transferred or promoted when faced with a very possible criminal action yet if this was any ole Joe we would have been in jail months ago with an absurdly high bond while they were compiling a case. Dual standards allow things like this to happen in the first place because they know the bar is so high its unlikely they will ever face justice.
VooDoo6Actual
08-30-11, 15:59
redacted.
Moose-Knuckle
08-31-11, 03:42
Not in America!
Baaa. . .baaa. . .baaaaa. :lazy:
platoonDaddy
08-31-11, 11:34
Article by the Heritage Foundation:
Morning Bell: The Fast and Furious Scandal Continues
31 Aug 2011
A U.S. government gun-trafficking investigation gone horribly wrong has resulted in the death of a U.S. Border Patrol officer, some 2,000 firearms in the hands of criminals, and the dismissal of a 24-year veteran law enforcement official. This is the story of Fast and Furious, and yesterday the latest chapter unfolded when two top officials associated with the operation were removed from their positions, while a third individual resigned. The story begins in the fall of 2009, when the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) office in Phoenix, Arizona, began selling
http://blog.heritage.org/2011/08/31/morning-bell-the-fast-and-furious-scandal-continues/
platoonDaddy
09-02-11, 06:19
shit keeps pouring in:
Demand for More Answers in Fast and Furious Scandal
By William La Jeunesse & Laura Prabucki
Published September 02, 2011
FoxNews.com
Just hours after the death of Border Patrol agent Brian Terry, federal officials tried to cover up evidence that the gun that killed Terry, was one the government intentionally helped sell to the Mexican cartels in a weapons trafficking program known as Operation Fast and Furious.
Also late Thursday, Senator Charles Grassley's office revealed that 21 more Fast and Furious guns have now showed up at violent crime scenes in Mexico. That is up from 11 the agency admitted just last month.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/09/02/demand-for-more-answers-in-fast-and-furious-scandal/
Just another .Gov blunder that will be swept under the rug... It's hard to have faith in government anymore.
4x4twenty6
09-02-11, 10:05
Right not i think our legislators would **** up a wet dream.
-No New jobs created this month.
-Congressmen saying that other congressmen want to see them hang.
-Congressman calling for violence against people of the other party who are "enemies"
-Gov't telling a business that they should send their business to another country (Gibson Guitars) and oh! the dems just happen to be involved in receiving support from a little known company(sarcasm) that goes by the name of "Martin"
I am just going to stop cuz this could take all day. But you all understand. These some bitches couldnt run a ****ing McDonalds.
Or , maybe , better late than never ?
http://www.azcentral.com/news/election/azelections/articles/2011/08/30/20110830us-attorney-arizona-burke-resigns30-ON.html
US attorney for AZ resigns effective immediately, saying it's time to pursue other career goals.
Or maybe , as Cpt Ron Speirs supposedly said at Brecourt Manor on D-Day , " Too late , kamerade .... "
:moil:
I would not be particularly surprised to learn that someone involved in this clusterphuque has a Vince Foster moment in his or her future.
:suicide:
platoonDaddy
09-07-11, 05:14
Now it is possible Grenade Parts also were smuggled into Mexico as part of Fast & Furious.
*********
Mexico Says U.S. Man Smuggled Grenade Parts for Sinaloa Cartel
Published September 06, 2011
MEXICO CITY – Police have arrested a U.S. man for smuggling American grenade parts into Mexico for use by the Sinaloa cartel, and a U.S. official said the case has now been included in investigations into flawed law enforcement operations aimed at gun-trafficking networks on the Mexican border.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/09/06/mexico-says-us-man-smuggled-grenade-parts-for-sinaloa-cartel/
*************
Megyn Kelly interview with Issa on DOJ Letting Explosives Walk: http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/america-live/index.html#/v/1147815598001/rep-issa-doj-let-explosives-walk/?playlist_id=87651
platoonDaddy
09-08-11, 20:12
The shit keeps on flowing, wonder why it took over two years to report the finding?
*****
Fourth Weapon Linked to 'Fast and Furious' Found at Violent Arizona Crime Scene.
The two guns found at the scene were an AK-47 and a Beretta pistol, according to the Arizona Department of Public Safety. The AK-47 is linked to Fast and Furious, according to ATF. The weapons were found inside a stolen truck in March 2010 after the driver slammed into two DPS vehicles while trying to evade members of the Arizona Vehicle Theft Task Force, ABC 15 reports.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/09/08/weapons-linked-to-fast-and-furious-found-at-violent-arizona-crime-scene/
Looks like a third gun from the Terry murder was linked to F&F... and the FBI tried to hide it to protect their CI.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/09/09/exclusive-third-gun-linked-to-fast-and-furious-identified-at-border-agents/
platoonDaddy
09-10-11, 17:41
Looks like a third gun from the Terry murder was linked to F&F... and the FBI tried to hide it to protect their CI.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/09/09/exclusive-third-gun-linked-to-fast-and-furious-identified-at-border-agents/
dang that poor family just wants closure and our friggin government keeps speaking with fork tongue.
VooDoo6Actual
09-11-11, 10:07
redacted.
I can't imagine the betrayal this family feels toward the admin...
Seriously, at this point anybody expect this administration to be honest & straight forward w/ the public ?
It's a joke right ?
Absolutely not in any form or fashion. I only wish this was one big joke... Suprise! The joke's on us!
VooDoo6Actual
09-11-11, 16:39
redacted.
According to an 06/24/2011 article in the People's Daily : " Guatemala joins regional scheme on marking firearms " , all weapons registered in that country will be marked to avoid illegal arms trafficing. This " is part of the Inter-American Convention Against ... Illict Trafficing in Firearms ....Hillary Clinton announced .... that ... her country is ready to provide additional 300 million US dollars in aid to help... "
www.peoplesdaily.com.cn/90001/90777/90852/7419576.html
There are some indications ( in the People's Daily ) that the UN may be infested with pro-gun-rights moles. Some of them in positions of significant influence . Some of those moles consider Century Arms International to be traitors to the international human rights coalition.
FWIW
platoonDaddy
09-18-11, 08:35
Posted by Moe Lane - Saturday, September 17th at 10:18AM EDT
Let’s review: When we first learned about Fast and Furious, the news was that a number of assault rifles had been sold to straw purchasers. Soon, we learned that the number was approximately 2,500 and that some of those were .50 caliber sniper rifles. Then we learned that somewhere between 1,200 and 1,300 of the weapons were unaccounted for, and that the ATF had allowed another upstanding gentleman to walk grenade components into Mexico (I guess he ended up in Mexico: no one knows because the ATF lost him). And finally, we’re learning that just a few days ago, on our side of the border, U.S. Border Patrol Agents found rocket and grenade launchers, assault rifles, and C4 explosives.
http://www.redstate.com/moe_lane/2011/09/17/operation-fast-furious-rocket-launchers/
http://i933.photobucket.com/albums/ad176/slickville/BorderPatrol.jpg
These weapons were discovered and seized Tuesday by Border Patrol agents near the Rio Grande in Fronton.
September 14, 2011 8:46 AM
http://www.themonitor.com/articles/launcher-54726-grande-grenade.html
platoonDaddy
09-19-11, 16:58
Secret Recordings Uncovered in ‘Fast and Furious’ / ‘Gunwalker’ Case
This is shocking I tell you shocking! Not that the these new secret Fast and Furious / Gunwalker reveal more ties of the Obama regime’s corruption, but that cBS did some actual journalism! Maybe cBS is trying to one up ABC after they broke the Solyndra scandal or something. cBS News has obtained secretly recorded conversations and posted them at their website. The tapes reveal that ATF Agent MacAllister speaks of a third weapon recovered at the Brian Terry murder scene last December. The weapon was an SKS assault rifle.
http://www.fireandreamitchell.com/2011/09/19/secret-recordings-uncovered-in-%E2%80%98fast-and-furious%E2%80%99-gunwalker-case/#more-27008
Maybe it's time for raise Hell with the Congress critters :
Find name , address , digits for your Congress critters . Just type in your zip and go from there.
www.congress.org/communicate
It's all about votes for those guys , the squeaking wheel gets the grease.
Worth mentioning in letters & e-mail to Congress.
Guatamala is a mess , tottering toward full failed state status . The county gets a lot of attention from the UN and gun-grabber NGO's.
Century International Arms imports smallish numbers of USGI Garands and M1 Carbines into the US by way of Guatamala. CAI is the only US importer to be licensed to import USGI guns since the mid-1990's.
Nobody else can get ATFE and the State Department to issue the permits .
The last other company to import USGI guns was Intrac of Knoxville , Tn. The Intrac story is 2/3's down the page :
www.bavarianm1carbines.com/imports.html
ATF harrassed and intimidated Intrac employees into destroying thousands of completely legal USGI 15 & 30 round magazines .
Then the SecState revoked Intrac's import license . Completely lawless.
The sponsor numbers are obsolete but the titles & bill numbers are still good.
ATFE Reform Act of 2011 :
S.835
4 sponsors
H.R. 1093
154 sponsors ( up 7 )
An earlier version of the ATFE bill was sponsored by over half of the House.
Just to compare , the dreaded H.R.45 had one sponsor out of 635 people in Congress.
The other significant gun rights bill has the potential to open up the flow of literally millions of WW2 and Cold War era guns back to American owners. Talking 1911 pistols , M1 Carbines and Garand rifles .
The Collectible Firearms Protection Act
H.R. 615
118 sponsors ( up 5 )
S.381
10 sponsors
The Senate isn't doing much . What's up with them?
Could be that the CAI traitor fanbois have been swamping Congress with thier lies .
Mauser KAR98K
09-19-11, 23:42
Worth mentioning in letters & e-mail to Congress.
Guatamala is a mess , tottering toward full failed state status . The county gets a lot of attention from the UN and gun-grabber NGO's.
Century International Arms imports smallish numbers of USGI Garands and M1 Carbines into the US by way of Guatamala. CAI is the only US importer to be licensed to import USGI guns since the mid-1990's.
Nobody else can get ATFE and the State Department to issue the permits .
The last other company to import USGI guns was Intrac of Knoxville , Tn. The Intrac story is 2/3's down the page :
www.bavarianm1carbines.com/imports.html
ATF harrassed and intimidated Intrac employees into destroying thousands of completely legal USGI 15 & 30 round magazines .
Then the SecState revoked Intrac's import license . Completely lawless.
And who's junk AK's are turning up in this?
platoonDaddy
09-21-11, 12:45
Audio Tapes Reveal More Details in 'Fast and Furious' Gunrunner Scandal
By William Lajeunesse Published September 21, 2011 | FoxNews.com
In a series of secretly recorded audio tapes, the owner of the gun store that sold a record number of weapons in Operation Fast and Furious admittedly sounds arrogant, crude and complicit in the U.S. government's plan to sell high powered assault rifles to the Sinaloa Cartel.
However, the lawyer representing the Lone Wolf Trading Co. says owner Andre Howard made the tapes only after he suspected he was being lied to, and his language is meant to get Hope MacAllister, an agent with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, to implicate herself and her agency in their illegal gun running scheme.
Full Article and video:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/09/21/audio-tapes-reveal-more-details-in-fast-and-furious-gunrunner-scandal/
woodandsteel
09-21-11, 13:11
Secret Recordings Uncovered in ‘Fast and Furious’ / ‘Gunwalker’ Case
This is shocking I tell you shocking! Not that the these new secret Fast and Furious / Gunwalker reveal more ties of the Obama regime’s corruption, but that cBS did some actual journalism! Maybe cBS is trying to one up ABC after they broke the Solyndra scandal or something. cBS News has obtained secretly recorded conversations and posted them at their website. The tapes reveal that ATF Agent MacAllister speaks of a third weapon recovered at the Brian Terry murder scene last December. The weapon was an SKS assault rifle.
http://www.fireandreamitchell.com/2011/09/19/secret-recordings-uncovered-in-%E2%80%98fast-and-furious%E2%80%99-gunwalker-case/#more-27008
Just to add to what platoonDaddy already posted. These links also have the written transcripts of what was said.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20108460-10391695.html?tag=contentMain;contentBody
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20108240-10391695.html?tag=re1.channel
Somewhat disturbing.
Heads should be rolling... If you go to www.keepandbeararms.com there are quite a few different articles pertaining to F&F posted today. They update their gun news every day and it's a good source to check out things of this nature and other gun stuff in the news.
And who's junk AK's are turning up in this?
I dunno about the AK's going south from the US to Mexico with ATFE's blessing but....
My gut says that US made M1 Carbines -- owned by Century Arms International -- are moving into Mexico from Guatemala. In fact , the ATFE position paper on the ROK to US USGI deal specifically mentions USGI Carbines being traced inside "foriegn counries ". Or words to that effect.
Here's some info that covers the solidly documented transfers of USGI Carbines: From 'A " for Angola ( UNITA , led by Jonas Savimbi ) to 'V' For Viet Nam :
www.bavarianm1carbines.com/carbinesnara.html
Lots of Carbines were transfered to governments in Mexico & nearby nations . It's impossible to tell how many were stolen or captured by rebels or criminals.
So the Klintonistas get Century to walk even more Carbines into Mexico and blame US gunowners for fueling " violent crimes against the Mexican people " .
Century gets a .gov supported monopoly on importing Garands & Carbines into the US.
And slimey Barcom'er Century fanboi He-ros spread the big lie all over the error-net.
FWIW:
This is NOT the CCRKBA* that has close ties to the Second Amendment Foundation**:
www.keepandbeararms.com
I will consider the organization to be just another scam until proven otherwise.
YMMV
The Real Deal:
Citizens Commitee for the Right to Keep & Bear Arms -- a very effective organization.
www.ccrkba.org
** SAF , the most effective gun civil rights organization -- member for member & dollar for dollar , punches well above it's wieght:
www.saf.org
FWIW:
This is NOT the CCRKBA* that has close ties to the Second Amendment Foundation**:
www.keepandbeararms.com
I will consider the organization to be just another scam until proven otherwise.
What planet are you from? It is not an "organization" in any sense of the word you're using it in. It is a website that compiles news stories from around the U.S. and puts them an easy to read format that is updated daily. It is a resource for people who want to read about gun related news articles and don't want to have to search the internet for hours looking for said articles.
The Real Deal:
Citizens Commitee for the Right to Keep & Bear Arms -- a very effective organization.
www.ccrkba.org
If you took the time to look at the website you'd also notice that CCRKBA has several advertisements on their site as well. And since "The Real Deal" CCRKBA finds it in their hearts to give them money to advertise there wouldn't you also assume that they are in fact part of the same team?
And in fact Alan Gottlieb, of SAF, is also the President of www.keepandbeararms.com. Read about it here http://www.keepandbeararms.com/about/leadership.asp
Nothing but crickets...
LowSpeed_HighDrag
09-21-11, 18:27
If you aren't harassing your congressman, you are wrong.
Spot on:
If you aren't harassing your congressman, you are wrong.
Ask the Congress critters if they have co-sponsored the ATFE Reform Act of 2011 , And the Collectible Firearms Protection Act.
And where they stand on lawless ATFE BS.
I dunno:
If you took the time to look at the website you'd also notice that CCRKBA has several advertisements on their site as well. And since "The Real Deal" CCRKBA finds it in their hearts to give them money to advertise there wouldn't you also
assume
that they are in fact part of the same team?
And in fact Alan Gottlieb, of SAF, is also the President of www.keepandbeararms.com. Read about it here http://www.keepandbeararms.com/about/leadership.asp
Nothing but crickets...
I don't assume anything . Too Risky & not ... reasonable & prudent....
I'll believe it when I hear it from Mr. Gottlieb , himself -- as in: from his living lips.. Unless , of course , you can produce a notarized power of attorney from that gentleman.
I'll believe it when I hear it from Mr. Gottlieb , himself -- as in: from his living lips.. Unless , of course , you can produce a notarized power of attorney from that gentleman.
You're funny :) Have a good night.
Sounds true to me:
If you aren't harassing your congressman, you are wrong.
That's the way it works in a constitutional republic with checks & balances in place.
There is no philosopher king to make it all better starting yesterday.
platoonDaddy
09-26-11, 16:44
Not only did U.S. officials approve, allow and assist in the sale of more than 2,000 guns to the Sinaloa cartel -- the federal government used taxpayer money to buy semi-automatic weapons, sold them to criminals and then watched as the guns disappeared
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/09/26/us-government-bought-and-sold-weapons-during-fast-and-furious-documents-show/
Mauser KAR98K
09-26-11, 21:27
Not only did U.S. officials approve, allow and assist in the sale of more than 2,000 guns to the Sinaloa cartel -- the federal government used taxpayer money to buy semi-automatic weapons, sold them to criminals and then watched as the guns disappeared
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/09/26/us-government-bought-and-sold-weapons-during-fast-and-furious-documents-show/
Just saw that. Why this isn't a huge story right now one every major network is proof positive this administration has way too many friends and supports in the media. This is incredibly criminal.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
09-26-11, 22:34
Just saw that. Why this isn't a huge story right now one every major network is proof positive this administration has way too many friends and supports in the media. This is incredibly criminal.
Because I wholeheartedly believe the American Sheeple trust the ATF to stop evil guns from killing people, and this is only a bump in the road to their vision of peace and security.
I'll believe it when I hear it from Mr. Gottlieb , himself -- as in: from his living lips.. Unless , of course , you can produce a notarized power of attorney from that gentleman.
If you write CCRKBA, SAF, or Keepandbeararms.com a letter it goes to the same address.
They are definetely different branches of the same organization. I swear it to you old boy, swear it to you.
If you write CCRKBA, SAF, or Keepandbeararms.com a letter it goes to the same address.
That's impossible! :D
VooDoo6Actual
09-28-11, 19:40
redacted.
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