View Full Version : The state of police tng/knowledge
QuietShootr
06-19-11, 10:07
I took some officers shooting yesterday - both state and local ERT-type dudes who needed some range time for a bachelor party.
Totally nice guys - most of them were soup sandwiches on the range, including the two state assaulters. One of them showed up with an S&W M&P15 with a Troy non-FF rail, with a gas-block instead of a regular FSB, with some plastic MBUS-style folding sights, with the front sight mounted on the rail. Coupled with the fact that he had a Grip-Pod on the rail, you could shift POI 6" at 25 just by changing the direction you put tension on the VFG. Duty weapon, BTW. He was horrified when I showed him what was wrong. Had no idea.
At the end of the day, we had two broken DPMSs, the M&P that wouldn't shoot straight, and a Remington 7--something that wouldn't feed - though it wouldn't have mattered much with the POS scope that was on it.
A couple of them asked if they could come back next weekend for some remedial instruction.
This is not a ball-break on them, it's a ball-break on their administration. THEY were willing to learn - they just don't have anyone who gives a shit enough to make sure they really know what they're doing. Kind of frightening, because these guys are supposed to be the A-listers of local guys. They get away with it most of the time because even the 'sophisticated' types they take down are still just useless shitheels 95% of the time.
Anyway. Fascinating experience. I know shooting is only a very small part of what they do, but you'd think it would get more emphasis than it does.
Hopefully the mods won't lock this one; I think this could be a worthwhile discussion, if moved over to training & tactics, or the LEO section.
Coming from "A local ERT-type dude", I see the problem as a perfect storm of several factors:
1. Individual officers' training priorities and mindset.
2. Department/team training priorities and mindset.
3. Department/team equipment budget and institutional ignorance.
4. Individual officers' (lack of) rationale for gear/accessory selection.
Reversing these trends often start at the individual officer or team member level, and work their way out from there. I'm caught up this process right now, with several initiatives.
They get away with it most of the time because even the 'sophisticated' types they take down are still just useless shitheels 95% of the time. So true. Luck=preparation=tactics mentality
We're fortunate here. Local police administrations are pretty forward-thinking and they take training seriously. Last August they brought in Larry Vickers, followed by Jeff Gonzales in October. This year they're doing Louis Awerbuck and Jeff is coming back for Combative Carbine II. In addition, Greg Sullivan plays a recurring role, and there's a local trainer in one of the police departments that is also a great instructor and does a lot of advanced training.
QuietShootr
06-19-11, 13:00
We're fortunate here. Local police administrations are pretty forward-thinking and they take training seriously. Last August they brought in Larry Vickers, followed by Jeff Gonzales in October. This year they're doing Louis Awerbuck and Jeff is coming back for Combative Carbine II. In addition, Greg Sullivan plays a recurring role, and there's a local trainer in one of the police departments that is also a great instructor and does a lot of advanced training.
Yeah, we have a department here who brings in ALL those guys plus more, (and the truly neat thing is, he won't let anybody give a class unless they admit "civilians" - big thumbs up!) so in my opinion there's no excuse not to take advantage of it.
As mentioned there are several factors involved and Chameleox named most of them with the largest generally being budget related. The other biggest hurdle tends to be the priority placed on the tactical units by the department itself, which again is based around several factors.
No offense to part time units as the guys on part time / multi-jurisdictional teams often face a multitude of hurdles while attempting to do a tough job in a part time role as a SWAT Officer while still maintaining their other full time duties. Having said that there is a huge training disconnect from guys who may only get to train one, or maybe only 2 days a month split between firearms live fire training and tactics etc, as opposed to those who do it full time doing it at least 2-3 days per week. Also include the overall numbers of missions that actually play a large role in proficiency and understanding of gear set ups etc...
Another thing to consider is the overall size of the pool of Officers and the selection process to be able to even make it onto a tactical unit often dictates the quality of the Officer overall and the unit itself. Choosing one or two guys out of 5 applicants is much different than choosing one or two guys out of 40-50 applicants who were able to pass the pre acceptance testing / screening.
So yes you will find guys doing the job who are eager and willing but are often tied down by miles of red tape, budgets etc...I must also add that even on full time units from large metro PD's you might still find a few guys that aren't as good of shooters as you would expect.
Edit to add - We must also remember that areas or regions of the country may hold very different attitudes on this topic as a whole and more or less emphasis may be placed on tactical units which can also be reflective or attitudes may mirror one another from agency to agency, be it local, State and even the Feds.
What Surf Said
That was probably the best breakdown of the difficulties involved in training as a part time team that I've ever read. Well said.
Being a part time guy, I feel the pressure to spend more of my primary assignment time, and personal time, to keep my skills and abilities sharp. On training days that I conduct, I often show up early, or have to make up the PT later, to get shit organized, to maximize the meager range time we have.
That was probably the best breakdown of the difficulties involved in training as a part time team that I've ever read. Well said.
Being a part time guy, I feel the pressure to spend more of my primary assignment time, and personal time, to keep my skills and abilities sharp. On training days that I conduct, I often show up early, or have to make up the PT later, to get shit organized, to maximize the meager range time we have.This is an excellent point that cannot be stressed enough and that most people simply don't understand or completely overlook. The amount of personal time and financial sacrifices that some part time guys dedicate in an attempt to do the SWAT job itself is highly commendable. Pulling down normal day to day duties often already comes with personal, financial or family sacrifices that can be compounded with the addition of being involved with a part time SWAT team.
As an example, as a full time unit for a large metro PD with no other collateral duties, we are required to maintain a mandatory physical and shooting proficiency standard that goes well beyond the departmental standards and for obvious reasons and PT and shooting standards are tested quarterly to stay within the unit. Because of these mandated standards we are afforded the on duty time and resources to maintain such standards which should be expected from a full time unit. On the other hand a part time unit tries to cram everything into one or two days a month, which is nearly impossible and that forces many part time guys to make a lot of personal sacrifices mentioned above.
To continue with examples and even comparing full time units, again this can also vary greatly from unit to unit which is generally a direct reflection of the amount of resources dedicated, or allocated to the unit itself. This is again generally a direct reflection of the priorities of the particular agency which is heavily influenced by community / region opinion. Some full time units may get gracious funding for ammo, equipment, training facilities and time, while other full time units may also be tied down and need to work within the limitations imposed upon them. Because of these simple or not so simple complexities of time and monies, physical, shooting or even other tactical related standards may vary greatly from agency to agency, unit to unit, or even person to person.
So for the OP and others reading, these are just but a few things that need to be considered when talking about SWAT or tactical units. There is such a huge variance for so many different reasons that we need to be careful when talking about generalizations in regards to SWAT or Tactical teams / individual Officers.
Also for the OP it is highly appreciated that you are taking the time to help those fellas out, and I am sure they are very appreciative of your efforts!
I took some officers shooting yesterday - both state and local ERT-type dudes who needed some range time for a bachelor party....At the end of the day, we had two broken DPMSs, the M&P that wouldn't shoot straight, and a Remington 7--something that wouldn't feed - though it wouldn't have mattered much with the POS scope that was on it.
While I agree with the training issues, let's not forget a related issue of subpar equipment being issued or purchased. Personal equipment can be a great asset or liability when a department does not set basic standards. In the Army, our brigade had a list of approved modifications and accessories. For example, the M68 was our standard issue optic, but certain variations of ACOGs were allowed for personal purchase depending on certain other factors. We could also use certain after-market mags and slings, but messing with the rail was a big no go.
IMHO, these departments should provide the weapon system and strictly control the modifications. Just imagine the fall out from a innocent civilian being injured by a duty weapon that shoots 6" groups at 25 yards.
QuietShootr
06-20-11, 08:59
This is a training thing, dude...I'm not busting balls.
QuietShootr
06-20-11, 09:03
While I agree with the training issues, let's not forget a related issue of subpar equipment being issued or purchased. Personal equipment can be a great asset or liability when a department does not set basic standards. In the Army, our brigade had a list of approved modifications and accessories. For example, the M68 was our standard issue optic, but certain variations of ACOGs were allowed for personal purchase depending on certain other factors. We could also use certain after-market mags and slings, but messing with the rail was a big no go.
IMHO, these departments should provide the weapon system and strictly control the modifications. Just imagine the fall out from a innocent civilian being injured by a duty weapon that shoots 6" groups at 25 yards.
Funny, that's pretty close to what I said when I figured out what the problem was... "Whoops, you just shot Grandma!"
I used to be one of those guys who would say "Let people carry what they want." Well, that was based on a sample of one: me. I know what I'm doing, but there are guys who are full-time ERT who would, given free rein to use what they want, show up with a DPMS with a Tasco Pro-point on a carry handle mount (saw that too). Some SOPs are stupid, but like most SOPs, they're in place to prevent the completely unknowledgeable from really doing something bad.
In many ways, proper equipment selection is a training issue. Every class that I've attended has some discussion of proper gear / accessories. Even if the department was not enlisting top onstructors, I imagine that the operator would realize their Tasco optic would not hold zero if they were getting the proper number of rounds down range (at least 500-1000 per month with primary weapon system for a part-time team).
(at least 500-1000 per month with primary weapon system for a part-time team).
On department time, with department ammo, I wish. On my own, sure. Everyone else, hardly.
....getting the proper number of rounds down range (at least 500-1000 per month with primary weapon system for a part-time team).A part time team for a primary weapon only and those numbers are generally very very impractical for on duty time and department paid ammo.
For a part time team, they may only get 1 day per month to do training and half of those hours at best might be spent doing actual live fire. Then throw those same round count numbers at the bean counters and even if the SWAT unit had the time to fire that many rounds per guy for primary weapon only per month and you will probably find that the budget doesn't allow for it.
There is a local team here with similar issues (well, a bunch I'm sure, but one I know more about). Their medic, non-sworn, shoots with us and shoots as well as if not better than anyone on the team. I believe they were training twice a month on the range and now may be down to 1x a month due to budget cutbacks.
Given those limitations, what do you do? IIRC they are all issued guns o that aspect is addressed to some degree, but they may well be RRA or other, and who knows who gets armorer duty.
I may have a chance to work with these guys (manipulations and marksmanship with the carbine only, no tactics) but am unsure of the ammo budget right now. Any thoughts on the best way to help a team like this?
There is a local team here with similar issues (well, a bunch I'm sure, but one I know more about). Their medic, non-sworn, shoots with us and shoots as well as if not better than anyone on the team. I believe they were training twice a month on the range and now may be down to 1x a month due to budget cutbacks.
Given those limitations, what do you do? IIRC they are all issued guns o that aspect is addressed to some degree, but they may well be RRA or other, and who knows who gets armorer duty.
I may have a chance to work with these guys (manipulations and marksmanship with the carbine only, no tactics) but am unsure of the ammo budget right now. Any thoughts on the best way to help a team like this?
I've been thinking about doing a fund raiser locally for ours for a couple years now. I've seen one just 40 miles north done that pulled in 20grand after being established for a few years. They usually have quite a few in the community locally donating items for raffles and such, basically a formal cigar type party. Few free cigars at the entrance, formal dinner included, few raffle tickets included with more purchaseable. Everything from low end golf items to full guns. More than a few historic/sports/nostalgia items from the local lawyers, doctors,business owners and judges etc. for silent/(open?) bidding. Usually a comedian after dinner with some gambling for a few hours, think part of that goes to available pots and other (half?) to the proceeds for the team(srt/swat). Only thing I'd like to be able to finagle is that part of it be directed to training with someone with who I could have some type of voice. I.E from here pretty much. I could see it all getting pissed into the wind on items which are nice and all but everyone, can always use more training and often times more useful/needed than the newest googaw/doodad.
I've thought about going the fundraiser route, but I doubt few people here would want me washing their car in a bikini. That, and the brass aren't too keen on making internal grumblings that public.
I have been trying to go the grant route. So far I was able to pick up $15,000 to buy 10 new armor carriers and plates, and I'm working on another one to help us buy helmets that will actually stop bullets.
Finding grant money for ammo or training (and other software issues) is a little harder. There is some stuff through NTOA from time to time, but otherwise, that's about it.
To give you an idea of the department attitude, our 28 member SWAT team has the same training budget as a 4 person horse patrol.
I may have a chance to work with these guys (manipulations and marksmanship with the carbine only, no tactics) but am unsure of the ammo budget right now. Any thoughts on the best way to help a team like this?
Honestly, jut ask. When I started getting tasked with running some training days, people were surprised with how much they didn't know, and how much you could do with so little.
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-20-11, 21:36
To give you an idea of the department attitude, our 28 member SWAT team has the same training budget as a 4 person horse patrol.
Sounds like you need a mounted SWAT team, or just get some coconuts and go Monty Python "Holy Grail" to get funding.
As a budgetary thing, can municipalities do a tax levy like they do for schools and designate it things like SWAT/First-Responders- I know they do it for schools and other muni projects? I can think of some great advertisements that you could use. A picture of a woman with a gun to her head and the tag line is "Recent budget cuts mean that this SWAT sniper only gets to train every other month. Is this a good month or a bad month for your wife? Pay a little now or pay the ultimate price later."
Due to the no LE threads policy this one is also being put to sleep. This decision was made after consulting with other staff members.
FYI- The DOJ BATFE thread is borderline close but due to the nature of it we are allowing it to keep on. If it decays into bedlam it will be shut down.
IG was 100% correct on closing this under our previous standing policy, and specific direction from me last night.
We discussed it more this AM and are removing the no-LE thread policy here:
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=69588
Thanks all.
On department time, with department ammo, I wish. On my own, sure. Everyone else, hardly.
A part time team for a primary weapon only and those numbers are generally very very impractical for on duty time and department paid ammo.
For a part time team, they may only get 1 day per month to do training and half of those hours at best might be spent doing actual live fire. Then throw those same round count numbers at the bean counters and even if the SWAT unit had the time to fire that many rounds per guy for primary weapon only per month and you will probably find that the budget doesn't allow for it.
Malcolm Gladwell's "Outliers" is a great book that has some relevance to this discussion. A recurring theme to the book is the 10,000 hour rule in that it takes this much practice to become a master of a craft. Unfortunately, the rule is very unforgiving as it does not accommodate other obligations, budgetary constraints, time off, etc. To become a master, you have to hit that 10,000 hour mark no matter what.
I knew that my recommended round count was higher than most part-time guys fire - I expect to raise an eyebrow. However, are any of you guys able to get to a proficient level with anything less that an average of 500 rounds per month? I sure can't. I can maintain my skills with less, but going to the next level takes this commitment.
Granted, being a good SRT operator involves skill sets other than shooting. So, a good chunk of that 10,000 hours will be spent without a firearm. I just hope that responsible officers will see that 100 rounds per month is not going to cut it during their initial training. A significant amount of personal time and money will have to be spent for a part-time operator to keep from becoming a liability. If they do not enjoy this commitment (I LOVE the range and the months training for deployments), they should probably seriously reconsider their assignment. That round that was fired does not care if the officer was part-time or did not get sufficient time / funds to train. It's odd of hitting the BG and not granny is very much related to the amount of time the officer spent honing their craft.
If they do not enjoy this commitment (I LOVE the range and the months training for deployments), they should probably seriously reconsider their assignment. That round that was fired does not care if the officer was part-time or did not get sufficient time / funds to train. It's odd of hitting the BG and not granny is very much related to the amount of time the officer spent honing their craft.
My thoughts exactly.
You make a good observation that there are a lot of other disciplines that take up training time, like tactics/movement, vehicle assault and operation, gas, less lethal, bangs, breaching, and so on. However, as you, I, and others would likely point out, shooting, Force on Force, and DFDM have to be the top priority. Not so much because we're more likely to shoot someone (we're not), but rather because we're expected to make the tough shot when it counts, and to not screw it up. If those skills are lacking at the individual or team level, everything else should take a back seat for a few days. One of my pet peeves is part time teams spending an hour on a training day for PT. I should be doing that shit on my own.
I'm hoping that, as I gain more time on the team, and get more opportunities to run some training days, I can inject some of this mindset into the individual members as well as the bosses.
And I'll be looking for that book. Thanks.
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