View Full Version : The SIG face palm thread
Littlelebowski
06-21-11, 15:05
I think we need a pictorial reminder of how moronic Sig's management is nowadays.
First off, the P238 "Gambler." Words fail me.
THE P238 GAMBLER, features the dead man’s hand, a two-pair poker hand, namely
“aces and eights” gets its name from a legend that it was the five-card-draw hand held by Wild Bill Hickok, when he was murdered in 1876, at Deadwood, South Dakota. Since its introduction in 2009 the P238 has redefined the role of a .380 ACP caliber pistol for personal protection. The “Gambler” edition, will be available for a short time in limited quantities. The “Gambler” features a rendering of the Dead mans hand in 24K selective gold inlay. The text “The Gambler”, name adorns right side of the slide. Own this legendary version of our popular P238 pistol today, the P238 Gambler.
http://www.sigsauer.com/upFiles/catalog/product/P238-Gambler-bty-Detail.jpg
Maybe they mean you're gambling that their gun will work. Or perhaps you're gambling that the .380 will be effective against your assailant.
Littlelebowski
06-21-11, 15:10
The wonderful "Golden Dragon" from 2009. As seen on the official SIG site.
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h251/baxshep/X-5-Golder-Dragon-detail-L.jpg
Littlelebowski
06-21-11, 15:11
And the alluring Scandium Blue.
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h251/baxshep/X-SIX-SCAND-BL-Detail_L.jpg
cochraneap
06-21-11, 15:12
http://sigsauer.com/upFiles/catalog/product/P238-Lady-Hero-Detail.jpg
Littlelebowski
06-21-11, 15:14
Ah, the Copperhead P238. With real gold inlay!
Since its introduction in 2009 the P238 has redefined the role of a .380ACP caliber pistolfor personal protection or as a back-up gun. Slim and light-weight with SIGLITE® night sights, concealed carry doesn’t get any better. The P238 Copperhead features 24K selective gold inlay of a Copperhead snake, with the text “Copperhead” on the slide. A copper colored frame and black checkered aluminum grips complete the package. Like it’s namesake, this pistol commands respect.
http://www.sigsauer.com/upFiles/catalog/product/P238-Copperhead-Detail-bty-dwn.jpg
I thought I was going to read your post, and reply, "Nuh-uh. You're being too hard on Sig!" You've made your point, however, in spades.
You've gotta admit, though, that some o' dem tree-aytees would be pimp, if ya huhked 'em up wit da beemz.
GermanSynergy
06-21-11, 15:14
I'm glad I divested from SIG a while ago. Their current management / marketing team have transformed a once respected entity into a grotesque laughing stock.
You've made your point, however, in spades.
Or in Aces and Eights rather?
:rolleyes:
Yeah "the Gambler" would be a great pistol to have in your pocket when you get shot in the back of the head while playing cards.
Not really sure why they are commemorating the murder of a famous gunfighter.
:confused:
Littlelebowski
06-21-11, 15:19
For you off roaders, the Diamond Plate P220 is sure to please!
http://www.sigsauer.com/upFiles/catalog/product/P220-Diamond-Detail-R.jpg
cochraneap
06-21-11, 15:24
http://cdn5.thefirearmsblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/p226_25a_detail_top-tfb.jpg
http://cdn5.thefirearmsblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/p226_25a_detail_l-tfb1.jpg
Littlelebowski
06-21-11, 15:24
Unfortunately, I don't think forum management will allow a "SIG Factory optics" thread due to a blatant bias against Chinese optics on this site. The truth will get out though.
Are the marketing folks at SIG out of touch with shooters, or just bored, or are they smoking some really good stuff? And who in Management is signing off on these whacko packages?
And what are *they* smoking?
ICANHITHIMMAN
06-21-11, 15:29
Im with you just down right awfull stuff. The P220 was my first hand gun brand new in the box from the Marine Corps exchange in Norfolk. I must have 6k through it and no complaints but its just your basic black pistol circa 2001. I learned how to shoot with it at the C2 range in Pungo. I dont see my self buying another sig for a long time if there going to look like that.
Littlelebowski
06-21-11, 15:45
Are the marketing folks at SIG out of touch with shooters, or just bored, or are they smoking some really good stuff? And who in Management is signing off on these whacko packages?
And what are *they* smoking?
Remember when Kimber made really good, basic, no frills 1911s that worked (for 1911s)? The Series 1 days?
Well, Kimber brought in this former IDF Army officer (one internet gun forum law is that anything Israeli is teh awesome!) named Ron Cohen into upper management (VP of ****ing Shit Up in Name of Profits, I believe). He gave us the wonderful external extractors which ended up being replaced for new slides with internal extractors at Kimber's expense and was a complete goddamned abortion of an idea. He also gave us stupid shit like the "Grand Raptor II" and "SIS" editions. Basically, take a Kimber Custom II. Add all sorts of stupid, gaudy checkering, scales, feathers, and some like patterned grips. Add $400 to the price.
It looks like Cohen is perfecting his "add stupid gaudy shit to good pistols and outsource the internal parts to Third World countries with cheap labor and low QC" at SIG now. He added "SWAT" models at both companies. SIG also has "SWAT Commando" models now. I'm looking forward to the "SWAT Commando Sniper" edition with a Coutnersniper scope included! I wish Aimpoint would sue SIG for their ChiCom knockoffs of the T1s.
Paste the code in the box below into Google.
cohen sig site:m4carbine.net
Littlelebowski
06-21-11, 15:51
interesting reading on the 556 and QC at SIG (http://www.sigarms556.com/viewtopic.php?t=7297).
Littlelebowski
06-21-11, 15:53
Sig Sauer SIG 556 5.56mm
Neither an AR, nor an AK, it’s a fighting rifle MASTERPIECE! (http://www.tactical-life.com/online/guns-and-weapons/sig-sauer-sig-556-556mm/)
Article (http://www.tactical-life.com/online/guns-and-weapons/sig-sauer-sig-556-556mm/)
http://www.tactical-life.com/online/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/sig2.jpg
Apricotshot
06-21-11, 16:05
Speaking of masterpieces...
http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac333/fontanillshj/074609072409xl1.jpg
Doc Safari
06-21-11, 16:13
What a horror. My first thought is that this is what you get when girls who love Rainbow Brite and Hello Kitty run gun companies.
Apparently my plain old 1993 P229 "it just always works" model is too boring. Can I send it to the Mastershop for some gold inlay diamondplate? Sig, I used to love you but now you break my heart.
http://tjscustomgunworks.com/Photos5/HelloKitty-rawtailDSC_5056b-1024.jpg
Alpha Sierra
06-21-11, 16:58
WTF is a "high definition handgun"?
SIG? Didn't they used to make guns?
Okie John
QuickStrike
06-21-11, 17:41
Reminds me of cheap knives from Bud-K. :bad:
mkmckinley
06-21-11, 17:53
The blurbs for these things remind me of those commercials that come on at 2:00 am and try to sell you comemorative plates and fake coins. Maybe they should quit worriying about inlays and un**** their QC.
This thread delivers lulz....
variablebinary
06-21-11, 18:43
Dont forget rainbow finish.
Yes, this was really a factory gun...
http://www.highcalgunauctions.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/item_details/85/PIC_0700_0.JPG
As I recall, the rainbow finish Sig came with a matching rainbow finish knife. What a deal.
It's gayer than Jim J. Bullock, but that rainbow finish is actually extremely tough. :ph34r:
devilsdeeds
06-21-11, 19:17
It's like SIG hired the Pimp my Ride guys to design there guns.
The #1 growing customers for handguns are women and they eat that shit up. For example, when my wife said that she wanted a SIG to replace her G26, she decided that she wanted a 2-tone SAS P239. She liked the way that they handle but also likes the 2-tone look. It was made in 12/10 and now has 1,800 problem free rounds through it. She's more accurate with the 239 than she ever was with the Glock, and enjoys shooting it more which is a good thing.
The sad thing is that these "bling" models sell, or they wouldn't be making them. It's all about the $$. Look at S&W for example. They are making a Taurus "Judge" clone because they sell like hotcakes. They also market cheap accessories and "self defense" packages etc.
Fortunately, you can still buy the standard "Classic" SIGs without all of the bling. All of my recent Classic SIG purchases have been very solid pistols.
And the alluring Scandium Blue.
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h251/baxshep/X-SIX-SCAND-BL-Detail_L.jpg
You have got to be kidding me. Who is smoking what over there?
For you off roaders, the Diamond Plate P220 is sure to please!
...
This is truly bad...I can't even laugh at this, it makes me sick.
What I find more troubling than some of the ugly shit coming out of New Hampshire these days is the fact that it is happening at a time when Sig quality is not nearly as well revered as it once was. I have a 1989 production 226 that is absolutely rock solid, but the more modern Sigs that I have shot (including my own P220ST) just do NOT measure up.
SIG . . . it's got ELECTROLYTES!
And they're going to fix the Ecomony!
Sig's current designers are also known as "West Coast Customs." X-Zibit would love toy pimp 'yo Sig.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Funny%20stuff/implied-facepalm.jpg
titsonritz
06-21-11, 21:46
Sig has definitely put out some hideous shit in the past few years.
EzGoingKev
06-21-11, 22:18
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Funny%20stuff/implied-facepalm.jpg
That is great.
Code3Patriot
06-21-11, 22:20
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/BadBoyACSO/MSX5Dragon.jpg
X-FIVE Golden Dragon
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/BadBoyACSO/MSX5Ruby.jpg
X-FIVE Ruby
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/BadBoyACSO/MSX5Camo.jpg
X-FIVE Camo
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/BadBoyACSO/MSX5Maj.jpg
P226 Majesty
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/BadBoyACSO/MSx5Her.jpg
P226 Hertige
I've been almost embarrassed to carry a Sig on-duty the past five or six years this foolishness has gone on. I'm praying my SO transitions to M&P or Glock someday.
misanthropist
06-21-11, 22:23
SIG . . . it's got ELECTROLYTES!
nice
This thread doesn't deliver laughs...it delivers tears. I had a West German 226 (still in the family) that is just a beautiful machine.
This thread is like finding out that the 226 I love had kids that moved across the country, then meeting their grandkids, and discovering that they're all yo-yo costume-jewelry-wearing wigged-out trailer trash.
Just horrible.
GermanSynergy
06-21-11, 23:44
Some of these guns look like something you'd find in a 3rd world dictator's collection.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=47987&stc=1
variablebinary
06-22-11, 00:00
It's gayer than Jim J. Bullock, but that rainbow finish is actually extremely tough. :ph34r:
Gayer than Jim J Bullock with HIV and a pocket full of crystal meth...
Wait, that actually happened...
NikokurausuX9
06-22-11, 00:02
Dont forget rainbow finish.
Yes, this was really a factory gun...
http://www.highcalgunauctions.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/item_details/85/PIC_0700_0.JPG
I would love an HK P7 with this type of anodizing. I love the Kershaw rainbow knives too.
I figure, if I ever get to stab or shoot some asshole, doing it with a rainbow colored device is added insult to injury. :dance3:
variablebinary
06-22-11, 00:02
Fortunately, you can still buy the standard "Classic" SIGs without all of the bling. All of my recent Classic SIG purchases have been very solid pistols.
Classic SIG's are actually QC'ed. If you want a knock-off, just look for the made in Exeter stamp
Classic SIG's are actually QC'ed. If you want a knock-off, just look for the made in Exeter stamp
The P22X series are the "Classic" SIGs no matter where they're made. My most recent purchase were two Exeter P239 9mm's that were made late in 2010. Both have been 100%.
I've never even seen one of those sterling nightmares on a dealer's shelf anywhere. Closest would be a couple rainbow finished ones at gun shows.
I've never even seen one of those sterling nightmares on a dealer's shelf anywhere. Closest would be a couple rainbow finished ones at gun shows.
I haven't either. I have only seen the standard black and 2-tone models.
How many of the blinged out crap models do they make? Is it a run of 10-100 or special build et etc?
What's next the Realtree Sig and a Dale Earnhardt Jr. 88 Nascar Sig?
Sure Gadsen flag is cool, but it's country fried homo when it's etched onto a pistol.
http://www.sigsauerguns.com/product-highlights/p226-gadsden-9mm-limited-edition-model/
http://www.sigsauerguns.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Sig-Sauer-P226-Gadsden-Flag.jpg
JeepDriver
06-22-11, 06:14
I'm now officially embarrassed to own my Sigs. I do love my 226's & 220's but these pictures make me sick.
( for the record, only standard finish guns owned, no bling on any of my guns )
Littlelebowski
06-22-11, 06:26
There is quite a few instances of folks posting photographic evidence of the 556 gas plugs having two identical holes drilled, can someone post those here?
Also, this is the company that protested the BATFE failing the P250 during testing because of reliability problems....
Sig Sauer also contends that ATF placed too great an emphasis upon reliability
WTF is a "high definition handgun"?
It is like a normal definition handgun with more definition added, duh.
Someone should link this thread to someone at Sig...
A funny blog author, a little photoshop, and we have ourselves this :
http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Sig-Sauer-P239-Rainbow-Titanium.jpg
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/BadBoyACSO/MSX5Camo.jpg
X-FIVE Camo
:eek:
Seriously?
I could have done that myself!
Actually, it would've looked better if I'd done it myself....
http://tjscustomgunworks.com/Photos5/HelloKitty-rawtailDSC_5056b-1024.jpg
This has got to be a photoshop joke, right?
I Mean that's just.... There's a way do pink on a firearm (even though it STILL looks lame) and make it classy. But this...a kitten dies every time one of these is churned out!
I swear, if anyone I know ever know shows up with one of these it'll disappear very quickly and mysteriously, leaving only a random assortment of small parts behind...:p
I own many Sigs but damn ..:sad: what the hell are they thinking and who are they marketing to Pimps and Ho's? :jester:
My Equinox is about as bling as I can stand..... of course I removed the wood grips and replaced them with Robber Houge panels. :D
Well crap-on-a-cracker, those are some ugly guns. I love my standard, old W German p226, but damn, I don't know what to say...
Well sadly there must have been some sort of demand/inquiry for Sig to make these things. Which only means one thing.....someone out there may have some of these! Eeeeeeeek:bad:
QuietShootr
06-22-11, 09:03
The Israeli strikes again. There's nothing you can't make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, if it has bling or Hebrew writing on it some banger or softheaded fundamentalist will buy it.
Littlelebowski
06-22-11, 09:22
Gas valve problem on SIG 556s. GO SIG! (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=80037)
The #1 growing customers for handguns are women and they eat that shit up.
Tacky women maybe. Doubtful many of them actually buy and shoot pistols though ... esp at this price point.
This thread doesn't deliver laughs...it delivers tears. I had a West German 226 (still in the family) that is just a beautiful machine.
Agreed. I still have my W German 220, but let my WG 226 go many years ago. Very sad indeed.
This thread is like finding out that the 226 I love had kids that moved across the country, then meeting their grandkids, and discovering that they're all yo-yo costume-jewelry-wearing wigged-out trailer trash.
Just horrible.
And the grand kids eyes are about a foot apart... Wonder which one plays the banjo???
Gas valve problem on SIG 556s. GO SIG! (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=80037)Two choices...no options...
Magic_Salad0892
06-22-11, 10:38
Sure Gadsen flag is cool, but it's country fried homo when it's etched onto a pistol.
Lmao. That's a great phrase.
Does anybody know if the newer production ''Classic'' models undergo any QC?
http://www.sigsauer.com/upFiles/catalog/product/P238-Gambler-bty-Detail.jpg
So, L'lebo...are you saying that the Sig P238 wasn't the gun that won the West?????
Great thread. I was debating starting one just like this. This should be a sticky.
And we should send this link to Sig…
Littlelebowski
06-22-11, 11:54
Couple all of this shit together and you do not have isolated instances of lemons and stupid ****ing marketing ideas but an entire paradigm shift at a once reputable company.
Anyone denying this might as well join the Flat Earth Society.
SIG . . . it's got ELECTROLYTES!
Great movie quote
broseidon615
06-22-11, 14:28
holy fOck. what the hell is wrong with the people over in Sig? I hope they read these forums and stop selling this shit
Thing is they make this crap, and it is crap, because it sells and they are making money. The problem is just as much the masses of ignorant consumers as it is the new company management.
F-Trooper05
06-22-11, 15:11
This thread perfectly sums up my feelings about SIG. They really need to take a page out of HK's playbook.
**I just threw up in my mouth a little, uuch**
I do miss my Classic 226 ('90), and 220 ('97). They were by far the best pistols I've ever had....that's counting my G19 (yeah I said it!!):D
Pistol Shooter
06-22-11, 16:30
Very sad that a CEO and his management team can **** up a once fine firearm manufacturer like Sig.
Hopefully, Cohen will retire/get fired and Sig can get back to making top quality products.
Thank God for HK. :D
I would love an HK P7 with this type of anodizing. I love the Kershaw rainbow knives too.
I figure, if I ever get to stab or shoot some asshole, doing it with a rainbow colored device is added insult to injury. :dance3:
I almost missed the sarcasm in this post. Almost
Lmao. That's a great phrase.
Does anybody know if the newer production ''Classic'' models undergo any QC?
About a year or so ago my department was pricing replacing our aging SIG 229s. The SIG rep told me this was our options, with #2 and #3 costing more:
#1. Regular commercial SIG pistol (supposedly just test fire twice for the two casings for those states that require the casings).
#2. Partially quality control check.
#3. Full quality control check per the standard Federal contract.
I am getting old when I am one of the few who remembers that SIGs used to come with a three shot test target.
Beat Trash
06-22-11, 18:14
To sacrifice QC and therefore reliability in order to have bling on your gun is akin to putting $2K worth or custom rims on a $500 car.
Is it asking too much to just maintain the QC your company's reputation and market share was built upon?
If you want to bling away after that, then go for it.
The Horror...the horror.
How far they have fallen, I can remember when SIG was "no nonsense" firearms for serious use. They may as well start making Franklin Mint Commemorative models.
The thing that really sucks is I have carried them since '85 and have a LOT invested in the manual of arms being second nature to me. That means any "new" developments (like with the recent rail revolution) from this point further will have to be passed on or I will be forced to go to another manufacturer.
This creates a problem because with the SIG and HK USP for example, the controls are in the reverse position.
I keep hearing through the net that Cohen's changes are bringing up company profits. Doesn't anyone have any proof of this? I mean, they don't seem to be drawing the large LE contracts anymore.
The Horror...the horror.
How far they have fallen, I can remember when SIG was "no nonsense" firearms for serious use. They may as well start making Franklin Mint Commemorative models.
The thing that really sucks is I have carried them since '85 and have a LOT invested in the manual of arms being second nature to me. That means any "new" developments (like with the recent rail revolution) from this point further will have to be passed on or I will be forced to go to another manufacturer.
This creates a problem because with the SIG and HK USP for example, the controls are in the reverse position.
I hear ya. I've been using Sigs since the late 1990s, and there doesn't appear to be any talk of transitioning to anything else in the near future. Being a department armorer, I have also seen what appears to be more fragile parts on Sigs now days. More broken small parts, and frame failures. I still carry my old P228 on duty. I used a P229R .40 for a while, but after about 10k rounds, the rail wear seemed to be far more pronounced than our older P229s, the barrel locking lug was more beat up, and the annoying plastic grips were cheaply made and did not fit properly. I ordered new ones from Sig, and they sent me another set that had the same problem. It looked like they had ground them down at the factory to "correct" the problem. I can't believe that they would allow the mass production and distribution of an obviously flawed part.........and I ordered these through the LE DHS so called quality controls.
My old guns still run great and I'll keep using them until my agency adopts something better. I'll be the old guy with no fancy rail on my weapon and it looked like I brought it back from Nam. :D
That being said, I got a P30 recently and I definatly wouldn't mind transitioning to it for duty use. At least H&K has been a "consistant" company over the decades when it comes to reliability and durability.
Littlelebowski
06-22-11, 20:33
SIG is currently selling the 556 rifle (a gas piston 551/552 knockoff in 5.56) and the 516 (another piston slapped onto an AR and LWRC is suing them over some part of the design, also in 5.56).
Anyone else see the disconnect? Are they competing with themselves?
Littlelebowski
06-22-11, 20:35
Most of the regulars know but just in case, the Federal Air Marshalls grounded all of their new SIG P250s and went back to their older P229s because of wide spread reliability problems.
I shot a FAM's issue P250. He handed it to me with two mags of ammo. I gave it back with one full mag. Sucked ass to shoot. Dude is on this forum. He is ecstatic that he can carry his older P229 again and wishes for Glock 19 issue.
Thing is they make this crap, and it is crap, because it sells and they are making money. The problem is just as much the masses of ignorant consumers as it is the new company management.
Exactly. If dipshits would stop buying the bling, then they will stop producing it.
We (members here) have to remember that 99% of gun owners aren't "shooters" and very rarely put a box of ammo through their guns in a year. These types of pistols, along with the Judge and "self defense" packages that some companies offer are attractive to these people. They can put the gun in a underwear drawer and show off their new bling to their friends every now and then.
They really need to take a page out of HK's playbook.
Why? So that they can constantly be close to bankruptcy? I read not too long ago, that H&K is in fianancial trouble again. While they do make excellent firearms, the masses and LE angecies won't spend the coin that H&K demands.
From what I have heard, SIG was very close to becoming non-existant when all that they produced was the P22X series. They are making money now with all of the gimmicks and crap. Same thing can be said about S&W. They are making money for the first time in a long time, and their business model looks exactly like SIGs.
Thankfully, we can buy M&P's instead of the gimmicks such as the Judge clone or "self defence" packages with the cheap accessories. It's also a good thing that we can still get the Classic P22X series or SIG Pro's without the bling crap.
Exactly. If dipshits would stop buying the bling, then they will stop producing it.
We (members here) have to remember that 99% of gun owners aren't "shooters" and very rarely put a box of ammo through their guns in a year. These types of pistols, along with the Judge and "self defense" packages that some companies offer are attractive to these people. They can put the gun in a underwear drawer and show off their new bling to their friends every now and then.
I agree. The reason Glocks are so popular is because they cost $450, not because people are consciously making informed decisions about performance. Glock could probably make a craptastic version with major concessions and offer it for $100 less and make even greater profits. Thankfully, they do not. The plastic standard sights are already concession enough, thankfully that is easily fixed and upgrades are available from Glock.
Sadly, the knowledgeable gun buyer is a minority in the gun community. One only needs to look at the number of guns like WASR 10s, zero grade AR-15s and junk grade HK clones out there to see what is popular and sells. There has always been a contingent of substandard firearms over the years, but they used to be a recognized niche market that most shooters knew to avoid. Now it seems crap is mainstream and embraced by many gun owners.
F-Trooper05
06-22-11, 22:26
Why?
Because they don't sacrifice the integrity of their product to make a quick buck. That's something I can appreciate as an end user, and they'll continue to get my business because of it.
I suppose it is just a matter of time before the "Glee" edition Sig P229 hits the market. Never since the Ford Pinto have I seen such a bomb of a product.
The reason Glocks are so popular is because they cost $450,
It's a reason but its not necessarily THE reason. Plenty of people who coldd afford much more expensive pistols choose Glock's for reasons other than price.
The Sig situation is pretty pathetic. It takes a long time to get a good reputation but no time at all to lose it. Ask Kimber.
They've been making these horrible one off pistols for awhile now. But I suspect they are selling them else why would they keep making them?
variablebinary
06-22-11, 23:37
I personally don't think SIG is a complete lost cause. I say this as probably the most visible SIG critic
I think the 2022 has managed to keep a good reputation despite the Cohen effect.
The SRT triggers are the best DA/SA in the business.
The X5 is God's gift to shooters.
The new slender grip with short triggers feel outstanding in the hand.
The current fusion of the 229 and 228 was a really good move
Sadly, for every step SIG takes forward, they also take 5 backward with bling models for retards, total garbage Vulcan class carbines, and spotty QC all around
Alaskapopo
06-22-11, 23:57
I personally don't think SIG is a complete lost cause. I say this as probably the most visible SIG critic
I think the 2022 has managed to keep a good reputation despite the Cohen effect.
The SRT triggers are the best DA/SA in the business.
The X5 is God's gift to shooters.
The new slender grip with short triggers feel outstanding in the hand.
The current fusion of the 229 and 228 was a really good move
Sadly, for every step SIG takes forward, they also take 5 backward with bling models for retards, total garbage Vulcan class carbines, and spotty QC all around
The X5 really missed the mark in my opinion. It does not hold enough rounds to be compeative in USPSA unless you shoot limited 10. Its a nice enough pistol but way over priced and it missed the mark for what it was marked for. (competition pistol) It reminds me of the 229 Sport I bought way back when. It was an absolute disaster for the intended market. Yea a iron sighted open gun that held 13 rounds.
Pat
Because they don't sacrifice the integrity of their product to make a quick buck. That's something I can appreciate as an end user, and they'll continue to get my business because of it.
I agree that they make solid product, but you also have to make money to stay in business. From what I've read before, H&K is going to the stock market to help with their money issues. They will have to find a way to manage their funds and make a profit to satisfy their investors.
OMG I want one of everything.
Lol..I am decorating my CC pistol with holster wear. Best bling in the world.
Although, i would take that silver AK if it was given to me, sorta looked cool....shhhh i didn't say that too loud.
Very sad that a CEO and his management team can **** up a once fine firearm manufacturer like Sig.
Hopefully, Cohen will retire/get fired and Sig can get back to making top quality products.
Thank God for HK. :D
The Israeli superboy is probably going there next.....
Couple all of this shit together and you do not have isolated instances of lemons and stupid ****ing marketing ideas but an entire paradigm shift at a once reputable company.
Anyone denying this might as well join the Flat Earth Society.
Ok, I'll join the flat earth society. It's the job of a marketing exec to get the maximum number of people to look at the products. Doesn't matter if the prospective buyer buys the diamond plate pistol. If that's what got him to look and he walked away buying a black P226, that's fine as well.
Should their QC be better, of course it should, but they're not alone in the current trend. Glock is having problems with not just Gen 4s now, but also recent Gen 3s as well. S&W M&P has had it's share of problems too, not the least of which is inconsistent accuracy in the 9mm. HK seems to be about the most consistent pistol out there short of $2500.00 plus 1911s. My point is that lots of people are taking shots at Sig, but in honesty, right now, most of the other manufacturers aren't putting out a stellar product either.
BufordTJustice
06-23-11, 04:16
I understand SIG needing to be fiscally solvent and attractive to its investors.
But F*CK all this barbie bullshit.
How about enhancing the efficiency of production for all pistols, bringing back the QC from the days of old, and making SRT standard on all platforms that can support it?
Possibly pass some production-efficiency savings on to the consumer (and LEAs) by an across the board, permanent price drop (and market the HELL out of it)?
Cancel that abortion of a design, the P250.
Cancel the 516 before they get sued into oblivion.
Make a REAL SIG 55X that accepts stanag magazines...not the current POS QC-shitstorm that is the 556. Make three models and make them well (12.5", 16", 20"). Sell accessories for those models like rails and real classic handguards separately.
Possibly explore advanced metal coatings in an effort to increase corrosion resistance while increasing lubricity.
Exploring different rifling types for their pistol barrels that can be made using their current cold hammer forging machines (polygonal, ratchet, 5R, etc.) to increase velocity, improve accuracy, and increase barrel life.
These are just a few ideas that would substantively improve SIG's product lineup and position in the industry.
Ok, I'll join the flat earth society. It's the job of a marketing exec to get the maximum number of people to look at the products. Doesn't matter if the prospective buyer buys the diamond plate pistol. If that's what got him to look and he walked away buying a black P226, that's fine as well.
Sig's motto is or used to be "To Hell and Back Reliability" or something like that. That has clearly taken a backseat to a "Taste the Rainbow" mentality, and that is the paradigm shift that LL is talking about.
Should their QC be better, of course it should, but they're not alone in the current trend. Glock is having problems with not just Gen 4s now, but also recent Gen 3s as well. S&W M&P has had it's share of problems too, not the least of which is inconsistent accuracy in the 9mm. HK seems to be about the most consistent pistol out there short of $2500.00 plus 1911s. My point is that lots of people are taking shots at Sig, but in honesty, right now, most of the other manufacturers aren't putting out a stellar product either.
If "everyone else sucks ass so who cares if we do too" is the defense that Sig wants to fall back on, more power to them I guess.
Well, first a v.p. from Kimber went to work for Sig and told them how much money was to be made by putting MIM parts in their guns. Parts breakage followed.
Their motto went "From Hell and Back reliability" to "Life is like a box of Chocolates".
I saw pictures on one forum of MIM parts being made from a company in India. Yep, their were Sigs small parts to their P series guns in the pictures.
Then somebody from Smith And Wesson must have told them how they need to make a "Gun of the Month" club. Then all the differant flavors started. Now their line is just confusing.I think the standard models now come with the E2 grip, so they don't even look right.
All this crap and the price got higher on the product.
I recently came across a West German 226 in the box for $650. Yeah I jumped on that.
I'm at the point were I rather look in the used showcases and find a nice older model than buy the new crap that's being dumped on the market.
Littlelebowski
06-23-11, 12:46
Why? So that they can constantly be close to bankruptcy? I read not too long ago, that H&K is in fianancial trouble again. While they do make excellent firearms, the masses and LE angecies won't spend the coin that H&K demands.
From what I have heard, SIG was very close to becoming non-existant when all that they produced was the P22X series. They are making money now with all of the gimmicks and crap. Same thing can be said about S&W. They are making money for the first time in a long time, and their business model looks exactly like SIGs.
Thankfully, we can buy M&P's instead of the gimmicks such as the Judge clone or "self defence" packages with the cheap accessories. It's also a good thing that we can still get the Classic P22X series or SIG Pro's without the bling crap.
First off, got a link for that rumor about HK? The 416 is spreading across European militaries, the SEALs (some of them) use it as they do the MP7 not to mention the adoption by the SEALs of the HK45C. The US Marine Corps just adopted the 416 as the IAR......
At least HK builds every part and weapon to the same specs. You may be able to comfort yourself by buying a "Classic" but as many others have already stated, SIG has three levels of QC.
You're that guy saying "gee, she is a whore since she released that sex tape but in person around me she's a nice girl."
You can't tell me that these company's ridiculously moronic strategies aren't hurting their QC as a whole. S&W "snatched defeat from the jaws of victory" as Vickers so eloquently puts it, Kimber is a ****ing joke thanks to Cohen, and SIG is nothing more than a marketing company. SIG is the worst of the lot considering all of the solid designs they own and devoted followers they earned whom they are now slipping roofies into their drink and making out with their wallets.
Dave Berryhill
06-23-11, 12:53
... Well, Kimber brought in this former IDF Army officer (one internet gun forum law is that anything Israeli is teh awesome!) named Ron Cohen into upper management (VP of ****ing Shit Up in Name of Profits, I believe). He gave us the wonderful external extractors which ended up being replaced for new slides with internal extractors at Kimber's expense and was a complete goddamned abortion of an idea. He also gave us stupid shit like the "Grand Raptor II" and "SIS" editions. Basically, take a Kimber Custom II. Add all sorts of stupid, gaudy checkering, scales, feathers, and some like patterned grips. Add $400 to the price.
It looks like Cohen is perfecting his "add stupid gaudy shit to good pistols and outsource the internal parts to Third World countries with cheap labor and low QC" at SIG now....
That happens in big corporations all the time. Some President or CEO runs a company into the ground and then leaves. Some other company hires him to "fix" their company and pays him even more than the last company that he ruined.
I've never understood it. Evidently, once you get the words "CEO" or "President" on your resume your job performance doesn't matter.
Magic_Salad0892
06-23-11, 12:59
First off, got a link for that rumor about HK? The 416 is spreading across European militaries, the SEALs (some of them) use it as they do the MP7 not to mention the adoption by the SEALs of the HK45C. The US Marine Corps just adopted the 416 as the IAR......
At least HK builds every part and weapon to the same specs. You may be able to comfort yourself by buying a "Classic" but as many others have already stated, SIG has three levels of QC.
You're that guy saying "gee, she is a whore since she released that sex tape but in person around me she's a nice girl."
You can't tell me that these company's ridiculously moronic strategies aren't hurting their QC as a whole. S&W "snatched defeat from the jaws of victory" as Vickers so eloquently puts it, Kimber is a ****ing joke thanks to Cohen, and SIG is nothing more than a marketing company. SIG is the worst of the lot considering all of the solid designs they own and devoted followers they earned whom they are now slipping roofies into their drink and making out with their wallets.
Your posts are getting better every time.
I'm a sucker for a good wordsmith.
I agree that they make solid product, but you also have to make money to stay in business. From what I've read before, H&K is going to the stock market to help with their money issues. They will have to find a way to manage their funds and make a profit to satisfy their investors.
The biggest hurdle HK has in the US market is the currency exchange rate and export/import taxes. In Germany, you can buy a P30 9mm for about $500 Euros which is the equivalent of about $700. Once you add in export taxes as parts leave German soil and enter US soil you've got another $250 added to the price.
One thing Sig Sauer has failed to do over the years has been to evolve their design and manufacturing techniques rapidly enough to compete in the market place. Prices are important, but a reputation for being a stellar performer, with high durability, and low maintenance also sell when it comes to deadly force equipment. HK seems to evolve pretty rapidly compared to the competition. Also, they are constantly testing what comes off their assembly lines.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2rLAWksyMQ
Presidents/CEOs of companies are now different than manager/coaches in major sports. One can fail here, but this team over here will hire for his "experience".
GingerPatches
06-23-11, 18:09
The biggest hurdle HK has in the US market is the currency exchange rate and export/import taxes. In Germany, you can buy a P30 9mm for about $500 Euros which is the equivalent of about $700. Once you add in export taxes as parts leave German soil and enter US soil you've got another $250 added to the price.
One thing Sig Sauer has failed to do over the years has been to evolve their design and manufacturing techniques rapidly enough to compete in the market place. Prices are important, but a reputation for being a stellar performer, with high durability, and low maintenance also sell when it comes to deadly force equipment. HK seems to evolve pretty rapidly compared to the competition. Also, they are constantly testing what comes off their assembly lines.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2rLAWksyMQ
Anyone catch that 1911 at 4:05? :D
threeheadeddog
06-23-11, 19:13
I personally don't think SIG is a complete lost cause. I say this as probably the most visible SIG critic
The X5 is God's gift to shooters.
Ok I absolutely HAVE to comment on this.
Why is it that all non-Sig shooters automatically thinkg that the All-German X5 is so great. It is, in fact, the most problem ridden "classic" Sig in current production. It still uses the internal extractor that RAN THE 220 INTO THE GROUND. The P220 for many years was simply in a league of its own. There were no other out of the box .45's that could compete on reliability/accuracy/size. Then when Sig switched to the stainless slides the P220 got such a bat rep that even Sig who refused to admit that they do any wrong had to change the P220 to the external extractor to fix the issue(it is my belief that it did fix that issue). WHY ON EARTH DOES THE X5 USE THIS PROVEN UNRELIABLE extractor system. It takes very little time to look over the competition oriented boards to see just how many x5 users have guns they cant run because of extraction issues.
This is not directed at anyone in perticular but please, please, PRETTY-PLEASE do not give the X5 an automatic pass because of some misguided idea that because it is not produced in the USA it must be a better gun.
MountainRaven
06-23-11, 20:03
S&W "snatched defeat from the jaws of victory" as Vickers so eloquently puts it [...].
When was this? Was it regarding the M&P? And if so, why?
:confused:
More please -- especially since I just bought two M&Ps.
Ok I absolutely HAVE to comment on this.
Why is it that all non-Sig shooters automatically thinkg that the All-German X5 is so great. It is, in fact, the most problem ridden "classic" Sig in current production. It still uses the internal extractor that RAN THE 220 INTO THE GROUND. The P220 for many years was simply in a league of its own. There were no other out of the box .45's that could compete on reliability/accuracy/size. Then when Sig switched to the stainless slides the P220 got such a bat rep that even Sig who refused to admit that they do any wrong had to change the P220 to the external extractor to fix the issue(it is my belief that it did fix that issue). WHY ON EARTH DOES THE X5 USE THIS PROVEN UNRELIABLE extractor system. It takes very little time to look over the competition oriented boards to see just how many x5 users have guns they cant run because of extraction issues.
This is not directed at anyone in perticular but please, please, PRETTY-PLEASE do not give the X5 an automatic pass because of some misguided idea that because it is not produced in the USA it must be a better gun.
The best Sigs ever made in terms of reliability, durability, quality, and reasonable price were the West German 9mm models. Virtually all European pistol designs are centered around the 9mm in concept, and execution. All other calibers are a retrofit of the 9mm production line. The P220 is an "okay" .45acp pistol. It is accurate, points well, and has a nice trigger. However, the feeding cycle is not optimal. Cartridges semi-slide up the breech face during feeding......which means that the extractor often pops out of the way for a cartridge to chamber wearing out the extracter faster than the 9mm models. This is partially due to the wider case diameter which tilts the case rim to a more extreme angle during feeding........something you don't get with the smaller 9mm casing. The P220s that we have in service we replace the extracters every 5000rds otherwise we starting having some extraction issues on the firing line. The recoil spring also wears out quickly resulting in a faster slide cycle than normal. When this happens, the magazine cannot keep up with the cycle speed also resulting in feeding problems. It's a great gun otherwise.....it just needs more TLC. Kinda like a good 1911.
The HK USP is overall a better service gun, and it was introduced in the early 1990s. Arguably the HK 45 is ever better.
charmcitycop
06-23-11, 23:00
.......
I miss this...
http://mob555.photobucket.com/albums/jj467/gogoplata14/100_8499.jpg
Sig doesn't know the difference between shit and Shinola.
Hopefully Sig is the last company Cohen has the opportunity to **** up.
Moose-Knuckle
06-24-11, 04:08
What is it these days with firearm manufactures performing ritual suicide? Seriously WTF. . .:confused:
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/AKS-74/facepalm.jpg
threeheadeddog
06-24-11, 12:37
The best Sigs ever made in terms of reliability, durability, quality, and reasonable price were the West German 9mm models. Virtually all European pistol designs are centered around the 9mm in concept, and execution. All other calibers are a retrofit of the 9mm production line. The P220 is an "okay" .45acp pistol. It is accurate, points well, and has a nice trigger. However, the feeding cycle is not optimal. Cartridges semi-slide up the breech face during feeding......which means that the extractor often pops out of the way for a cartridge to chamber wearing out the extracter faster than the 9mm models. This is partially due to the wider case diameter which tilts the case rim to a more extreme angle during feeding........something you don't get with the smaller 9mm casing. The P220s that we have in service we replace the extracters every 5000rds otherwise we starting having some extraction issues on the firing line. The recoil spring also wears out quickly resulting in a faster slide cycle than normal. When this happens, the magazine cannot keep up with the cycle speed also resulting in feeding problems. It's a great gun otherwise.....it just needs more TLC. Kinda like a good 1911.
The HK USP is overall a better service gun, and it was introduced in the early 1990s. Arguably the HK 45 is ever better.
Sorry that there was some confusion. I was not saying the p220 was some wondergun. I was saying that for the period there was no real competition to the p220. It was a reliable pistol that, while the maintenance cycle was short, was user serviceable with parts that didnt require fitting and was chambered in .45. If you look at the pistols in that time frame you basically had 1911 and HK as the only real competitors. The 1911 is a 1911 and an HK is really in a different catagory in terms of size. I am not putting the P220 on a pedistal, just stating that it was a quality pistol in an ere where there were few coompetitors and vurtually none that compared in all areas.
threeheadeddog
06-24-11, 12:38
Also sorry for the p220 derail. The intent was to point out the design flaw that is in the X5 series.
Thomas M-4
06-24-11, 13:24
That happens in big corporations all the time. Some President or CEO runs a company into the ground and then leaves. Some other company hires him to "fix" their company and pays him even more than the last company that he ruined.
I've never understood it. Evidently, once you get the words "CEO" or "President" on your resume your job performance doesn't matter.
Outrages contracts even if the investors wanted to fire them they can't because of the insane payout. It pretty crazy they can walk in the door after the contract is signed and have the company by the balls.
The biggest hurdle HK has in the US market is the currency exchange rate and export/import taxes. In Germany, you can buy a P30 9mm for about $500 Euros which is the equivalent of about $700.
Please kindly tell me where? I'll buy a crate for that price :D
Regular price is about 900EUR (1EUR is $1.41).
But watching this thread makes me first time to be glad that HK does not have any marketing at all.
But Copernican rule that bad money push out good money from market work there to full extend. Seem like making very good and consistent quality firearms is not economically reasonable, when you product is benchmarked only price wise against lesser products. We are living now in "cheaper is better" economy with everything "made in China" around. I think that only international firearms trafficking regulations and US import and export restrictions hold companies from making all firearms at Norinco.
30 cal slut
06-24-11, 13:56
I'm glad I divested from SIG a while ago. Their current management / marketing team have transformed a once respected entity into a grotesque laughing stock.
Bro, I divested myself of them a while back in an armed confrontation.
Damn FTF (defensive ammo) in a P228 made me change my mind about touching Sigs ... forever.
Nephrology
06-24-11, 15:14
Bro, I divested myself of them a while back in an armed confrontation.
Damn FTF (defensive ammo) in a P228 made me change my mind about touching Sigs ... forever.
Damn. Care to share?
Bro, I divested myself of them a while back in an armed confrontation.
Damn FTF (defensive ammo) in a P228 made me change my mind about touching Sigs ... forever.
Worn out main spring? The old style springs are supposed to be changed out every 10k rounds or every 5 years of service use.
Alpha Sierra
06-24-11, 17:15
When was this? Was it regarding the M&P? And if so, why?
:confused:
Forget what the experts say. Run YOUR gun hard and find out if it is reliable or not.
I bought a Glock 17 Gen 4 then I saw the shitstorm here and in a couple other places. I have suffered TWO FTEs within the first 350 rounds, which disappeared once I replaced the original spring with the 021. The gun now has 2618 rounds through it and 2155 since the last stoppage.
The gun runs and runs and eats everything I feed it, even mildly f-ed up reloads. If I listened to the interwbz, I would have sold it long ago before finding out that mine, once set up with the factory upgraded recoil spring assembly, has the reliability that Glocks are famous for.
I read not too long ago, that H&K is in fianancial trouble again. While they do make excellent firearms, the masses and LE angecies won't spend the coin that H&K demands.
Same thing can be said about S&W. They are making money for the first time in a long time, and their business model looks exactly like SIGs.
I would be interested to see details of HK having financial issues of you have them.
I am seeing a surprising number of HK's on the local ranges here in Phoenix. Yes thats anecdotal but I rarely saw them before.
I don't think S&W has the same model as Sig. At least with the M&P its pretty clear there have been fairly rapid and continuous improvements in many areas.
Sigs model seems to be;
Cut costs by cheaper components, less quality control during manufacturing, and minimal customer service and support.
Throw some poorly designed and tested rifles and pistols out into the market and see if they stick.
Tart up the classic pistols for whoever buys that sort of thing. They have been doing this for awhile so someone must be buying them.
Focus on maintaining premium prices while cutting costs and overall quality to the point where you can't even trust the classic pistols.
I know a little about manufacturing and when you have more variation as Sig does with a zillion different models you should be beefing up quality control. Cutting it while adding variation is a disaster in the making.
My point is that lots of people are taking shots at Sig, but in honesty, right now, most of the other manufacturers aren't putting out a stellar product either.
I see your point but don't consider Smith and Glock to be in the same league as Sig in terms of loss of reputation.
Well, first a v.p. from Kimber went to work for Sig and told them how much money was to be made by putting MIM parts in their guns. Parts breakage followed.
Not just MIM parts but the cheapest MIM parts they could find. From India as you mentioned but also from at least one middle eastern country.
MountainRaven
06-24-11, 19:49
Forget what the experts say. Run YOUR gun hard and find out if it is reliable or not.
I don't own an M&P.
However, I am frequently in a position of advising others in their defensive firearms selections. I don't want to give bad advice. If there's some fatal flaw that has come up with the M&P that I'm not aware of, I'd like to know about it. Similarly, if S&W is doing something stupid, I also want to know about it.
My point is that lots of people are taking shots at Sig, but in honesty, right now, most of the other manufacturers aren't putting out a stellar product either.
True
Still buying a NIB Gen3 G17/G19, P30, M&P, 92FS, or FNX is a pretty safe choice. A P22x should always be a "safe" choice.
Moose-Knuckle
06-24-11, 20:35
True
Still buying a NIB Gen3 G17/G19. . .is a pretty safe choice.
Not since GLOCK shot themselves in the foot and started using gen 4 extractors in later gen 3 guns. :mad:
First off, got a link for that rumor about HK? The 416 is spreading across European militaries, the SEALs (some of them) use it as they do the MP7 not to mention the adoption by the SEALs of the HK45C. The US Marine Corps just adopted the 416 as the IAR......
First off, I will post a link regarding the "rumor." Here's a thread over at HKPro where it wa s discussed. The thread has some links that are in German, but I have also seen a link that was in english but it is no longer available. http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-talk/140412-heckler-koch-going-stock-market.html
Second, I know that some militaries have adopted the 416, and I'm also aware of what certain elements of NSW have, but thanks for filling me in. Those contracts are small beans though compared to what HK used to have with the MP5's, HK53's, G3's etc and their varients world wide.
HK has also lost a ton of LE contracts. There was a time when almost every agency had MP5's or HK53's in their armory. Even small podunk departments had MP5's. Those have now been replaced with AR15's. The replacements weren't 416's though. Colt, Bushmaster, RRA and S&W have basically taken all of HK's long gun business in LE. They have also lost a ton of handgun contracts (a few around my area in the last few years), or have been de-authorized for use (that has happened around me too). There's only one state agency (Maine) that still issues HK's. The main reason that they are no longer competive is price. The other big reason is the lack of armorer support for LE agencies and parts replacement. Hell, I want to get an HK45C but Safariland won't make a duty holster for it, or the HK45 for that matter. That is clue of HK's demand in LE.
I don't know if sales are up for HK on the civi side, but I do know that their sales are a tiny fraction of other companies, including SIG.
At least HK builds every part and weapon to the same specs. You may be able to comfort yourself by buying a "Classic" but as many others have already stated, SIG has three levels of QC.
I've said this before and I'll say it again. I have never had a problem with any of my SIGs, US or German made. My co-workers have also never had a problem with theirs. I have personally seen more Glocks and M&P's malfunction and have parts break than any Classic SIG, new or old. The only malfunctioning SIG that I have seen is when a Chief was at the range with his old W. German P226 that hadn't been cleaned in years, and didn't have a drop of lube/oil on it. A couple of squirts of clp got it back up and running. I have also heard of some extractors and trigger bar springs breaking at the academy on a couple of German P220's. I honestly can't remember ever seeing a single issue with an HK pistol.
This forum is the only place that I have heard of SIG "having 3 levels of QC." I have NEVER been asked if I would like to pay more for a SIG with higher QC when ordering. Do you or anybody have an order sheet or some type of letter from SIG stating that this is true?
Hearing this again piqued my interest, so I decided to try and hear it straight from the horses mouth. I placed a call to a SIG LE Rep. I asked him for a price on a new P226R. He gave me a price and then I asked if I could pay a higher premium for more QC. He didn't understand what I was talking about, so I asked again if they have different tiers of QC and if so, I would like to get the best that they offer. He caught on to what I was asking, chuckled, and said that he has never heard of such a thing. He did say though, that certain LE and .mil contracts specify certain testing, finishes etc etc (common with many contracts). Mr. SIG Rep also stated that their defective weapons/parts returns are running at slightly lower than 1% right now. He also said that they sell a LOT more handguns than they did in the 80's and 90's, which may make it seem like there's more returns. He told me that is industry wide because everyone is selling record number of guns right now.
You can't tell me that these company's ridiculously moronic strategies aren't hurting their QC as a whole. S&W "snatched defeat from the jaws of victory" as Vickers so eloquently puts it, Kimber is a ****ing joke thanks to Cohen, and SIG is nothing more than a marketing company. SIG is the worst of the lot considering all of the solid designs they own and devoted followers they earned whom they are now slipping roofies into their drink and making out with their wallets.
I wouldn't say that their "strategies" are hurting QC. I can see that pumping out as many weapons as they can to meet demand, can and probably does. Do I think that the bling crap, the "Judge" and it's clones, and the "self defense" packages are ridiculous? Of course I do. But in reality, it's a neccessary evil for them to make money. Like I said before, 99% of gun owners aren't "shooters" and they're attracted to crap like that. It sells, or they wouldn't make those models/gimmicks. Would you run or invest in a business for free?
Quite frankly, I don't know why you started this thread. We all know and understand that you don't care for SIG, Cohen or whatever. If you don't like them, then don't buy a SIG. It's simple, really. I personally don't care for M&P's, as I have seen and heard (from friends that are issued them) of enough issues with them that they are at the bottom of my list for a "duty" weapon. Do I start a thread bashing S&W because of it? Nope. Do I start a thread making fun of S&W because they make a Judge clone, market cheap accessories and "self defense" packages? Nope. Just because I have seen some Glocks and M&P's fail, does it mean that they are all junk? Nope, because I know that they're not. The same can be said about all of the common service weapons, so really, I don't get what point you're trying to make here.
Clobbersauras
06-24-11, 20:53
Love this thread! Another SIG face palm:
http://www.tactical-life.com/online/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/sig11.gif
Heavy Metal
06-24-11, 21:01
I think we need a pictorial reminder of how moronic Sig's management is nowadays.
First off, the P238 "Gambler." Words fail me.
http://www.sigsauer.com/upFiles/catalog/product/P238-Gambler-bty-Detail.jpg
They are so gonna get sued by Kenny Rogers!
Love this thread! Another SIG face palm:
http://www.tactical-life.com/online/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/sig11.gif
Here's some more "face palms"...
http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson2/upload/images/firearms/zoom_lg/220401_01_lg.jpg
http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson2/upload/images/firearms/zoom_lg/162411_01_lg.jpg
Alaskapopo
06-24-11, 22:17
My last sig experience was not good. About 5 months ago I was asked by the Forest service to run one of their agents through their qualificaiton course because they did not have any firearms instructors in the area. He was using a 229 in 40sw with a light rail. The ammo was Speer Gold Dot 180 grain. Out of 100 rounds fired he had 4 or 5 malfunctions. Mostly failures to go into battery. In the old days Sig 229's worked. I used to own several. Their quality control has gone to crap. No arguing that.
Pat
Great, 3 levels of "QC"...what kind of business plan is that??:confused:
I have no intention of derailing this into an HK thread. But I have to interject here that the city PD here has been running two MP5's here for years and just purchased an SD last year.
My own Dept. just bought three MP5A2's last year.
While I have not looked specifically for a Safariland duty holster for either my HK45 or 45C I have seen 6004's for sale on the boards on HKPRO for both HK45's with and without lights.
HK is not a huge player in the LE market, that would be Glock, but they certainly do have a presence.
And so far I've seen none of them that exhibit the colors of the rainbow.
Here's some more "face palms"...
http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson2/upload/images/firearms/zoom_lg/220401_01_lg.jpg
http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson2/upload/images/firearms/zoom_lg/162411_01_lg.jpg
I've never been a big SIG fan. I always felt their sight picture sat too high, their controls were poorly placed, and after recently shooting a P250 - the giant frame near the top of the trigger guard rubs your trigger finger - almost blocking from being able to work the trigger without interference.
That said - I've always respected SIG for their legendary reliability. That respect is starting to slip as their QC does. And this thread hasn't helped matters.
Those who know me know I am currently tinkering with the M&P platform. But it still has many teething issues. When asked by newer shooters what platform to choose - I always recommend Glock or HK. I will most likely have a Glock riding in my holster before the year is over.
However, I have to say I see some differences between SW and SIG. A few years ago, SW was the laughing stock of autoloaders. SIG was on the same level as HK at the time. It's starting to switch more and more. I feel like SW - despite some plain STUPID choices in the past - is actively trying to do what is best. If you look at their carbines and their evolution - it shows. Look how they made a .22lr AR trainer that locked back. They have introduced a .22 trainer for the M&P. The 45 midsize was a gift to those who wished it. They've brought threaded barrels, dark earth finishes, strong LE support, strong aftermarket support, and great customer service.
In short, I feel like SW is actively trying to go down the right path. Whereas SIG is heading down the "bubba" path. I don't know that we should excuse that.
The "self defense" package actually doesn't bother me. You'd be suprised how much a shitty holster and shitty mag carrier can sway the average joe (ex. SA XD). The holster (Bladetech?) may be crappy - but I think it's good that it forces a holster on some who would otherwise not buy one (or walk out with a SERPA).
The Judge clone is a stain on their otherwise great wheelgun collection, though. But I still find a .45LC wheelgun a bit more excusable then rainbow finishes. There was a market for the .410 wheelgun - and it's only a joke to those that are truly "in the know".
I actually have the biggest problem with SW's cheap lights and knives. I was particularly sad to see them put the M&P logo on one of their God-awful knives. I think they should kill the SD and SIGMA lines as well. The lasers on the guns - I'm actually all for it. I think the crowd that goes for those guns would benefit from a laser sight.
SW is shaping up to be a very reputable company again. People can rag on GLOCK for their Gen 4 problems - but they changed their design with the INTENTION of making it better. There's a big difference between that and shopping for the cheapest / lowest priced MIM parts and lowering QC levels.
I guess my point is that no one company will make 100% right choices - especially when people such as m4c members who are "switched on" critique those decisions. However, I think you need to look at the overall trend. SW is starting to come back around. Glock has been there. HK has been there. And I don't feel like any of these 3 companies are compromising reliability or their model lines to make a quick buck.
This isn't aimed at anyone and I'm not trying to kick any hornet nests - but removing all emotional attachment from inanimate objects allows you to objectively pick the ones best suited to your uses.
Just my $0.02.
To add to my already long winded post....
First off - nothing I said was aimed at you - S1. I agree with you on a lot of what you've posted. I do think SIG may be catching too much shit lately. I also completely agree that its the 99% "average" shooters who pay their bills... not the 1% who post here.
However, we as the 1% have the responsibility to say what goes and what doesn't. Why did SIG start using cheaper MIM parts? Because 99% of people would never notice.
It is a double edged sword though. It is also the "1%ers" responsibility to not crucify a company too quickly. I think a good recent example is Randy Lee addressing a small, rare, and unnoticable issue (to but the best of shots) of the M&P9s having some accuracy issues at longer ranges. Once word got out - suddenly everyone with an M&P9 is experiencing awful accuracy. Even if some have the affected pistols - they probably wouldn't have otherwisse noticed it. I recently heard the "bad accuracy" thing locally - so word does spread. M4C is the stage and the firearm enthusiasts are our audience.
I think a good example of this is Daniel Defense. Their rifles have followed - almost exactly - the trends that many members here have set for the AR platform.
There's really no room for BS here. Something is either good or it isn't. If it isn't - the users of m4c will let people know. I also think this is part of the reason why some of the "flashy" SIG models are getting hated on so bad. It's because SIG's QC is slipping at the same time some of these colorful guns are coming out. If their QC was still world class - I think it would be a lot more excusable.
A good example.... I can almost gaurantee that if Magpul put out Pink or Purple PMAGS tomorrow - many here would buy them. Because they know that PMAGS are solid. They aren't a joke. So putting them in a girly color is humorous. If C-Products or TAPCO put out a Pink or Purple mag.... the users here would have a field day making fun of it.....
That said - I've always respected SIG for their legendary reliability. That respect is starting to slip as their QC does. And this thread hasn't helped matters.
If you're not a fan of SIG, or haven't owned a newer model, then how can you say that their QC has slipped? Is it just from what you have read here, or is it from personal experience?
Those who know me know I am currently tinkering with the M&P platform. But it still has many teething issues. When asked by newer shooters what platform to choose - I always recommend Glock or HK. I will most likely have a Glock riding in my holster before the year is over.
I always recommend to newer shooters that they should start out on a striker fired system such as the Glock or M&P.
They have introduced a .22 trainer for the M&P. The 45 midsize was a gift to those who wished it. They've brought threaded barrels, dark earth finishes, strong LE support, strong aftermarket support, and great customer service.
SIG does or has done the same thing.
In short, I feel like SW is actively trying to go down the right path. Whereas SIG is heading down the "bubba" path. I don't know that we should excuse that.
So the Judge clone isn't a "bubba" gun?
The "self defense" package actually doesn't bother me. You'd be suprised how much a shitty holster and shitty mag carrier can sway the average joe (ex. SA XD). The holster (Bladetech?) may be crappy - but I think it's good that it forces a holster on some who would otherwise not buy one (or walk out with a SERPA).
S&W offers packages that come with Fobus holsters (Shitty) for the M&P and mags, that do sway the average Joe.
BTW.... Some NSW Units (SEALs) issue Blade-Tech holsters for their SIG P239's. NSW also issues Blackhawk SERPA's for their P226's (Safariland lost the contract).
The Judge clone is a stain on their otherwise great wheelgun collection, though. But I still find a .45LC wheelgun a bit more excusable then rainbow finishes. There was a market for the .410 wheelgun - and it's only a joke to those that are truly "in the know".
True. But those "in the know" actully know that the "rainbow" finish (dispite being ugly and gay as happy) is very tough.
SW is shaping up to be a very reputable company again. People can rag on GLOCK for their Gen 4 problems - but they changed their design with the INTENTION of making it better. There's a big difference between that and shopping for the cheapest / lowest priced MIM parts and lowering QC levels.
If S&W can be more consistent with their M&P's, they will have a true winner. I personally think Glock will get the current problems addressed.
MIM parts are here to stay in every gun, period. Once again, if you're refering to SIG "lowering QC standard" how do you know? As the LE Rep told me, they are running at slightly less than 1% return rate, which is pretty good, IMO.
Oops! Meant to bold that in my original post - but forgot it all together.
Any comments in regards to SIG's QC slipping is based off of what I've heard through the grapevine. However, I've heard it from people who otherwise have no reason to make it up and are very knowledgeable shooters. Again, I've never put too much thought into SIG so I know absolutely NOTHING in regards to their business practices, production, or material selection. I haven't chosen SIGs for over a dozen years... based ONLY on my personal selection of ergonomics in a gun.
I'm not bashing SIG at all. Merely observing. Aside from the Gold and one camo variant - I've never seen any of these guns in the real. Most shooters, shops, and dealers I encounter are still stocking Classic SIGs.
The Judge clone is most certainly a Bubba gun. As per your pics - they've up'd the ante by adding "Beamz" as well to it.
I could have swore the package was a Bladetech kit with certain M&P purchases? Or maybe we are referring to something different? Fobus is pretty rough. If it's something that comes with the SD guns, I've already stated I hope they kill that line. Mostly because the price point is so close the M&P - it just doesn't make sense.
I hear you on that SW is doing things that SIG has already done. However, I think its the act of doing them that means something. SW has always had their crappy lights and knives and other junk - but they are adding things of true value. Whoever is calling the shots is moving it in the right direction. Again, if someone told me 10 years ago I'd own a SW polymer autoloader... I would have never believed them.
I have heard the rainbow finish is tough. I'll have to look more into what and why - for curiousity sake.
SW definately has a little ways to go before they will be a true winner with the M&P. The GEN4 Glock problems were just a hiccup. And I have to agree with LAV that SW isn't helping themselves - especially at a time (Gen 4 issues) where it is most ideal to really take control of the market.
No question on MIM parts being here to stay. However - like anything else (polymer injection, wood, glass, etc.) there are different grades of material and processes that affect durability and spec.
If this is all just internet hoop-lah (I've already been very clear I'm citing the "general consensus" I've noticed on recent SIGs - so someone with more knowledge then me will have to provide any evidence) - then I can understand your frustration.
No doubt increased sales creates increased occurances of problems. IF the SIG rep is being honest about their return rate - then 1% is VERY good. That number is actually throwing me for a loop. Both because of some documented problems (FAMs come to mind) and that being such a low number. I'm NOT discrediting anything. Just brain surfing there....
I don't post here too often - so if I don't repsond don't take it as me ignoring you, S1. Take care, bro.
Looking at the specs on Smith's website, the M&P carry package comes is with "Blade Tech" holsters and not Fobus (Fobus comes with the XDs). For what its worth (http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_787035_-1_764152_764151_757781_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y)
It also comes with ear plugs in case you didn't realize you need them.
As a Sig fan, I'm not crazy about all the buba guns they seem to be producing and am very concerned about the reported QC issues they are having (although I have no first hand experience with issues other than misaligned sights from the factory). Designing a new platform is very expensive and Sig no doubt blew their wad on the abortive P250. So I'm sure a lot of what we are seeing is Cohen attempting to increase profits the easy way by cutting costs and selling to the lowest common denominator (he must be taking advice from the airline industry). All this may be well and good for the bottom line in the short term but Sig is quickly pulling a Beretta by failing to adapt to the current LE/SD market that has pretty much accepted the "striker fired" action (or similar LEM) as the standard. As discussed in another thread, I would love to see them revisit their SigPro series and offer a short-reset DAK trigger, but I think that still costs more money than offering a limited edition Monster Truck P226.
threeheadeddog
06-25-11, 14:35
Just to put my comments in perspective. I have owned 2 sigs. A 229 and 220 combat tb. I would be back on the Sig bandwagon in a heart beat, even with their issues, if it were not for the frame mounted decocker. I do believe that the "classic" line with the external extractors are GENERALLY good-to-go.
The frame mounted decocker is just a real deal can-get-me-killed objection to the pistol. I find that during the press-out while my off-hand is torquing forward I will sometimes slightly ride the decocker and cause a FTF(light primer strike). I also find it odd that I dont see this as a common objection to the pistol. I often wonder if I am doing something slightly odd with my technique.
Looking at the specs on Smith's website, the M&P carry package comes is with "Blade Tech" holsters and not Fobus (Fobus comes with the XDs). For what its worth (http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_787035_-1_764152_764151_757781_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y)
It also comes with ear plugs in case you didn't realize you need them.
As a Sig fan, I'm not crazy about all the buba guns they seem to be producing and am very concerned about the reported QC issues they are having (although I have no first hand experience with issues other than misaligned sights from the factory). Designing a new platform is very expensive and Sig no doubt blew their wad on the abortive P250. So I'm sure a lot of what we are seeing is Cohen attempting to increase profits the easy way by cutting costs and selling to the lowest common denominator (he must be taking advice from the airline industry). All this may be well and good for the bottom line in the short term but Sig is quickly pulling a Beretta by failing to adapt to the current LE/SD market that has pretty much accepted the "striker fired" action (or similar LEM) as the standard. As discussed in another thread, I would love to see them revisit their SigPro series and offer a short-reset DAK trigger, but I think that still costs more money than offering a limited edition Monster Truck P226.
DA/SA triggers in law enforcement have "mostly" fell out of popularity, but there are still a LOT of agencies that use them. Not to mention, DA/SA pistols are still the standard for most military organizations here and abroad. Mostly because, a good single action trigger is hard to beat when it comes to speed, and longer ranged shooting. Then a true DA safe condition is hard to beat in terms of safety, and all you have to do is pull the trigger to get into the fight. The option of carrying the pistol without a holster is also appealing, which isn't the best idea with a striker fired pistol. The HK LEM trigger is nice, but HK still produces more DA/SA guns because that is what the market demands.
The decocker is a problem on Sigs. It's really smooth and nice, but it adds bulk to the area around the thumb and inhibits good pointing. This was a major consideration in the early 2000s when agencies were shifting to the thumbs forward technique. At the time, the only guns Sig offered had the decocker in this position, and agencies were using this criteria in selecting their duty sidearms. The Sig Pro offered nothing to improve this situation, so Sig had a dead end production line. So, by the time Cohen took over Sig was way behind in advancing their designs to meet the changes in the LE market. Their solution was P250 which was a disaster. Sig's real problem was recognizing changes in the market, and adapting accordingly. They instead stuck to a classic production line which was the conservative approach which can only result in diminished sales. They should have gotten in the polymer market in the early 1990s and started phasing out the classic line.
DA/SA triggers in law enforcement have "mostly" fell out of popularity, but there are still a LOT of agencies that use them. Not to mention, DA/SA pistols are still the standard for most military organizations here and abroad. Mostly because, a good single action trigger is hard to beat when it comes to speed, and longer ranged shooting. Then a true DA safe condition is hard to beat in terms of safety, and all you have to do is pull the trigger to get into the fight. The option of carrying the pistol without a holster is also appealing, which isn't the best idea with a striker fired pistol. The HK LEM trigger is nice, but HK still produces more DA/SA guns because that is what the market demands.
The decocker is a problem on Sigs. It's really smooth and nice, but it adds bulk to the area around the thumb and inhibits good pointing. This was a major consideration in the early 2000s when agencies were shifting to the thumbs forward technique. At the time, the only guns Sig offered had the decocker in this position, and agencies were using this criteria in selecting their duty sidearms. The Sig Pro offered nothing to improve this situation, so Sig had a dead end production line. So, by the time Cohen took over Sig was way behind in advancing their designs to meet the changes in the LE market. Their solution was P250 which was a disaster. Sig's real problem was recognizing changes in the market, and adapting accordingly. They instead stuck to a classic production line which was the conservative approach which can only result in diminished sales. They should have gotten in the polymer market in the early 1990s and started phasing out the classic line.
Interesting. Please explain to me why you think Sig should have phased out the one line of pistols that they do best. The P226 and 228 are two of the best combat pistols on the market. No offense, but the SEALS keep using them, so there has to be something right with them. The SP series isn't even in the same class and, as you pointed out, the P250 is a disaster. I'm not challenging you, I really am interested in how you're reasoning this out.
Alaskapopo
06-25-11, 23:08
DA/SA triggers in law enforcement have "mostly" fell out of popularity, but there are still a LOT of agencies that use them. Not to mention, DA/SA pistols are still the standard for most military organizations here and abroad. Mostly because, a good single action trigger is hard to beat when it comes to speed, and longer ranged shooting. Then a true DA safe condition is hard to beat in terms of safety, and all you have to do is pull the trigger to get into the fight. The option of carrying the pistol without a holster is also appealing, which isn't the best idea with a striker fired pistol. The HK LEM trigger is nice, but HK still produces more DA/SA guns because that is what the market demands.
.
I disagree the reason many militarys still carry them is the cost of replacing pistols and retraining for a new superior design. Pistols are on a low priority for the Military.
Learning two triggers blows. I much prefer a Glock trigger to a Sig DA SA trigger. One consistent trigger that is the same all the time. Carrying a pistol without a holster is stupid and not appealing at all. Nor is it more safe to do with a DA SA then a stricker fired gun its equally stupid with both designs. A DA trigger is not safer. More ND's were logged with cops using revolvers than with autos.
Pat
Interesting. Please explain to me why you think Sig should have phased out the one line of pistols that they do best. The P226 and 228 are two of the best combat pistols on the market. No offense, but the SEALS keep using them, so there has to be something right with them. The SP series isn't even in the same class and, as you pointed out, the P250 is a disaster. I'm not challenging you, I really am interested in how you're reasoning this out.
Mostly manufacturing costs. The P226 and P228 are indeed great pistols, but in order to make them to the old German specifications it will price them out of the market. To mill out an aluminum alloy frame is considerably more costly than moulding a polymer frame. If your competition can make a polymer framed pistol that does just as well, then as a company you are suffering a considerable profit loss if you price your pistol even in the same ballpark as the polymer framed competator.
Alloy frames work fine, but they are costly to make just like any business if you cannot change with the times you are doomed to fail. Sig has demonstrated this by continuing to use alloy frames, but cuts corners in order to keep their manufacturing costs down to compete with the polymer framed market.
Carrying a pistol without a holster is stupid and not appealing at all. Nor is it more safe to do with a DA SA then a stricker fired gun its equally stupid with both designs. A DA trigger is not safer. More ND's were logged with cops using revolvers than with autos.
Pat
One of the most common methods of inconspicuious carry for FAMS is to wrap their P229s in a washcloth and stuff it into their pants. Border Patrol also authorizes non holster carry for plain clothes operations and their H&Ks. Not many agencies authorize it, but it is a consideration.
Not arguing NDs, but a true DA mode was specified in the DOI contract for Sigs in 1992, FAM contract in 1994, and the most recent H&K BP contract in 2004.
Alaskapopo
06-25-11, 23:50
One of the most common methods of inconspicuious carry for FAMS is to wrap their P229s in a washcloth and stuff it into their pants. Border Patrol also authorizes non holster carry for plain clothes operations and their H&Ks. Not many agencies authorize it, but it is a consideration.
Not arguing NDs, but a true DA mode was specified in the DOI contract for Sigs in 1992, FAM contract in 1994, and the most recent H&K BP contract in 2004.
No offense to you but that is crazy.Wrapping your pistol in a washcloth is going to make it impossible to get into action in a hurry. I would never authorize it because its un safe and slow into operation.
Pat
No offense to you but that is crazy.Wrapping your pistol in a washcloth is going to make it impossible to get into action in a hurry. I would never authorize it because its un safe and slow into operation.
Pat
Not disagreeing with you, but that's what they authorize.
It's gayer than Jim J. Bullock, but that rainbow finish is actually extremely tough. :ph34r:
Comes with a Large stick on moustache, Sig plaid shirt and Sig chaps.
Its the coming soon to a gunstore near you Sig "YMCA edition".
Seriously the German 226 is hard to beat. One of the best pistols ever produced.
Learning two triggers blows. I much prefer a Glock trigger to a Sig DA SA trigger. One consistent trigger that is the same all the time. Carrying a pistol without a holster is stupid and not appealing at all. Nor is it more safe to do with a DA SA then a stricker fired gun its equally stupid with both designs. A DA trigger is not safer. More ND's were logged with cops using revolvers than with autos.
Pat
Your logic is sound, but one thing and one thing only keeps me from abandoning the P226 for the G19. I shoot better with the SIG.
It's kinda like carry handle mounted optics, I've done it for so damn long that is what I'm most used to. Despite the "different" trigger on the Glock, I am so used to a SIG in my hand (since 1985) that is what I point best with.
Also I think most people forget a DA/SA handgun is just that. It is BOTH. You can actually cock the hammer before you fire your first shot IF the situation permits. Having grown up in the "revolver" days this is something almost everyone knew how to do. Some of us even got really good at cocking it "on the draw and presentation" with very little cost in time on target.
Seems about the early 90s such antics became verbotten and range officers would have kittens if they saw you do it. And what was once a standard cowboy skill is now a rare and esoteric thing that only crazy people and sorcerers would attempt.
To me it seemed simple enough, if you have the time you can cock your weapon for all "consistent" shots and if you have the luxury of time you probably are shooting at distance where you want that SA trigger pull. And if you don't have time things are "now and right in front of you" and you should be able to manage with that initial DA pull just fine.
Now if you were going to stick me in a "everything that moves needs to die" environment, I might change. In fact I will probably want a G34 with nothing but G18 magazines. But for civilian defensive carry I think I am best served with my P226.
As for LE I tend to cringe when I see them with Glocks. There are so many times as a matter of procedure where a LEO will point a weapon at you with no current intention of shooting you. And not all of them are 100% about that finger on the trigger rule. If I have to pick a weapon for "officer friendly" to point at me while he establishes my friend or foe status, I think I'd rather give him a DA/SA SIG. But I won't go so far as to tell LEOs what they should and shouldn't be allowed to carry.
bad timing
06-26-11, 00:41
Sure Gadsen flag is cool, but it's country fried homo when it's etched onto a pistol.
Haha nice.
Alaskapopo
06-26-11, 01:01
Your logic is sound, but one thing and one thing only keeps me from abandoning the P226 for the G19. I shoot better with the SIG.
It's kinda like carry handle mounted optics, I've done it for so damn long that is what I'm most used to. Despite the "different" trigger on the Glock, I am so used to a SIG in my hand (since 1985) that is what I point best with.
Also I think most people forget a DA/SA handgun is just that. It is BOTH. You can actually cock the hammer before you fire your first shot IF the situation permits. Having grown up in the "revolver" days this is something almost everyone knew how to do. Some of us even got really good at cocking it "on the draw and presentation" with very little cost in time on target.
Seems about the early 90s such antics became verbotten and range officers would have kittens if they saw you do it. And what was once a standard cowboy skill is now a rare and esoteric thing that only crazy people and sorcerers would attempt.
To me it seemed simple enough, if you have the time you can cock your weapon for all "consistent" shots and if you have the luxury of time you probably are shooting at distance where you want that SA trigger pull. And if you don't have time things are "now and right in front of you" and you should be able to manage with that initial DA pull just fine.
Now if you were going to stick me in a "everything that moves needs to die" environment, I might change. In fact I will probably want a G34 with nothing but G18 magazines. But for civilian defensive carry I think I am best served with my P226.
As for LE I tend to cringe when I see them with Glocks. There are so many times as a matter of procedure where a LEO will point a weapon at you with no current intention of shooting you. And not all of them are 100% about that finger on the trigger rule. If I have to pick a weapon for "officer friendly" to point at me while he establishes my friend or foe status, I think I'd rather give him a DA/SA SIG. But I won't go so far as to tell LEOs what they should and shouldn't be allowed to carry.
You should shoot what you feel comfortable with. I have no problem with reliable sigs. I started with a Sig 229 as my first centerfire pistol I purchased when I was in college. ( I have owned the following sigs: 229 in 40sw, later one in 357 sig, then a 229 sport, 239 in 9mm, 239 in 357 sig, 226 in 9mm, 228 in 9mm 220 in 45 acp) But now I greatly prefer triggers that are short with a quick reset and with only one pull. I like 1911's the best followed by Glocks.
As for LEO's we teach our guys not to point in on someone unless they are about to shoot. When you are giving commands you do it from what we call the guard position which is similar to low ready. (muzzle down at 45 degrees) To get truly good with a DA SA weapon you need to practice double taps over and over and over. Here is a video of me with a Sig 228 and one with a Glock 17. Drill was simple start in low ready and fire 2 shots per target. Times and hits were recorded. Glock was faster for me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfuAvdhOxPA
The trigger reset slowed me down as well as the long DA first shot.
Glock 17
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Eot0DA120
Pat
Mostly manufacturing costs. The P226 and P228 are indeed great pistols, but in order to make them to the old German specifications it will price them out of the market. To mill out an aluminum alloy frame is considerably more costly than moulding a polymer frame. If your competition can make a polymer framed pistol that does just as well, then as a company you are suffering a considerable profit loss if you price your pistol even in the same ballpark as the polymer framed competator.
Alloy frames work fine, but they are costly to make just like any business if you cannot change with the times you are doomed to fail. Sig has demonstrated this by continuing to use alloy frames, but cuts corners in order to keep their manufacturing costs down to compete with the polymer framed market.
Thank you. Ok, I see what you're saying and I think you're right about developing a GOOD polymer pistol earlier or at all would have been beneficial for them. I do think though that, along with the polymer pistol development program you're talking about, they should have kept making the P226 and the P228 to the German specifications /standards from fifteen years ago. Maybe the pistol would be $1500.00, but at least if you wanted one, you would be assured of getting a pistol that you could bet your life on. Thanks again.
.
+1 FWIW a friends 2010 production X5 I have shot was extremely unreliable and constant extraction problems every few rounds which was shocking given the price of the thing...
Ok I absolutely HAVE to comment on this.
Why is it that all non-Sig shooters automatically thinkg that the All-German X5 is so great. It is, in fact, the most problem ridden "classic" Sig in current production. It still uses the internal extractor that RAN THE 220 INTO THE GROUND. The P220 for many years was simply in a league of its own. There were no other out of the box .45's that could compete on reliability/accuracy/size. Then when Sig switched to the stainless slides the P220 got such a bat rep that even Sig who refused to admit that they do any wrong had to change the P220 to the external extractor to fix the issue(it is my belief that it did fix that issue). WHY ON EARTH DOES THE X5 USE THIS PROVEN UNRELIABLE extractor system. It takes very little time to look over the competition oriented boards to see just how many x5 users have guns they cant run because of extraction issues.
This is not directed at anyone in perticular but please, please, PRETTY-PLEASE do not give the X5 an automatic pass because of some misguided idea that because it is not produced in the USA it must be a better gun.
You should shoot what you feel comfortable with. I have no problem with reliable sigs. I started with a Sig 229 as my first centerfire pistol I purchased when I was in college. ( I have owned the following sigs: 229 in 40sw, later one in 357 sig, then a 229 sport, 239 in 9mm, 239 in 357 sig, 226 in 9mm, 228 in 9mm 220 in 45 acp) But now I greatly prefer triggers that are short with a quick reset and with only one pull. I like 1911's the best followed by Glocks.
As for LEO's we teach our guys not to point in on someone unless they are about to shoot. When you are giving commands you do it from what we call the guard position which is similar to low ready. (muzzle down at 45 degrees) To get truly good with a DA SA weapon you need to practice double taps over and over and over. Here is a video of me with a Sig 228 and one with a Glock 17. Drill was simple start in low ready and fire 2 shots per target. Times and hits were recorded. Glock was faster for me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfuAvdhOxPA
The trigger reset slowed me down as well as the long DA first shot.
Glock 17
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Eot0DA120
Pat
It looks like you were slower with the Sig, but more accurate with it even in DA mode. :D "Speed is nice, but accuracy is final" -Larry Vickers
Heavy Metal
06-26-11, 10:29
It looks like you were slower with the Sig, but more accurate with it even in DA mode. :D "Speed is nice, but accuracy is final" -Larry Vickers
Yeah, and Larry carries a Glock.
Littlelebowski
06-26-11, 10:34
Yeah, and Larry carries a Glock.
I haven't gotten around to posting what Larry said at the class about the current state of SIG. I'm sure S-1 knows more than Larry does anyway......
With all the comments about QC taking a nose dive (or at least going through a rough period) in many firearms companies, I haven't heard many complaints about Beretta. Their PX4 line seems to be a dead end, but the 92 series (to include the 92A1, M9A1, 90Two) still seem to be generally trouble-free. Of course, maybe it's just that not that many folks buy a 92 with all the other choices out there.
El Pistolero
06-26-11, 10:54
Wow, just got done reading this thread after learning about piss-poor QC from the Sig 1911 thread. I was getting ready to buy a P226R but it looks like I won't anymore unless there were West German-made ones with a rail. I still regret selling my surplus P6, it was one of their "good" ones. I'm pretty sure I will get a Walther P99 instead. **** Sig for the gold-plated rainbow Euro-trash that spews out of their "Mastershop."
Alloy frames work fine, but they are costly to make just like any business if you cannot change with the times you are doomed to fail. Sig has demonstrated this by continuing to use alloy frames, but cuts corners in order to keep their manufacturing costs down to compete with the polymer framed market.
Lynch him, he doesn't believe in the party line that Cohen is simply trying to cut costs to increase profits for the shareholders.
IMO Sig is a lot like S&W was until they came out with the M&P line. They have some good pistols, but they are stuck behind the curve without a modern polymer design. So they attempt to sell special edition pistols.
Guns like the gambler, platinum elite, and others may look gaudy, and don't appeal to the segment of buyers that often browses this site. But to the gun collectors, that often have their fill of black pistols, those special editions appeal to them. I've seen the same plain jane models of Sigs sit on my LGS's shelf, while platinum elite, and the other gaudy models move.
There are some in the industry that believe that without the changes that Ron Cohen brought to Sig, they might not be in business today. That's not to say that his every move is perfect, nor do I think that they can keep this up (they need their M&P), but overall what he has done for Sig has been good for the company, and Sig's owners (Swiss Arms is a private company owned by a pair of German investors).
Yeah, and Larry carries a Glock.
Meaning what? Glock may be the right pistol for LAV, but that doesn't make it the end all be all of pistols for everyone.
Heavy Metal
06-26-11, 11:41
Meaning what? Glock may be the right pistol for LAV, but that doesn't make it the end all be all of pistols for everyone.
Meaning you need to go back to the previous page and read the post I replied to. You should be able to answer your own question.
Meaning you need to go back to the previous page and read the post I replied to. You should be able to answer your own question.
I read the post or posts you were replying to. Alaska is quicker with the Glock and Khan pointed out he was more accurate with the Sig. Hence my question. He was more accurate with the Sig. That's a basic LAV principle, "Speed is fine, Accuracy is final" Also, he was shooting a 228, so it wouldn't really be one of the newer Sigs that everyone else is discussing in this thread. If I missed something, I'm not sure what it is.
Heavy Metal
06-26-11, 11:53
I think you are the only one who fails to comprehend it then. The point I was making is so obvious Ray Charles could see it.
I haven't gotten around to posting what Larry said at the class about the current state of SIG. I'm sure S-1 knows more than Larry does anyway......
Actually I wish you would do so. In my class all he brought up was Glock, HK, and Smith and Wesson. The friend that went with me to the class carried his P 226R Navy and ran it. But it was the only Sig, in fact the only DA/SA in the class.
Writing this it seems he did make some feint mention of Sig in the background when he was checking out what everyone was carrying but I think it was just related to control of the DA/SA system.
**** Sig for the gold-plated rainbow Euro-trash that spews out of their "Mastershop."
Funny thing... I always believed that those "Pimp my Ride" rainbow stuff is aimed at US market... :lol: ....
Wow, just got done reading this thread after learning about piss-poor QC from the Sig 1911 thread. I was getting ready to buy a P226R but it looks like I won't anymore unless there were West German-made ones with a rail. I still regret selling my surplus P6, it was one of their "good" ones. I'm pretty sure I will get a Walther P99 instead. **** Sig for the gold-plated rainbow Euro-trash that spews out of their "Mastershop."
If a 1% return rate is "piss poor QC," then we should all stop buying firearms.
I haven't gotten around to posting what Larry said at the class about the current state of SIG. I'm sure S-1 knows more than Larry does anyway......
Are you mad?
threeheadeddog
06-26-11, 13:06
Learning two triggers blows. I much prefer a Glock trigger to a Sig DA SA trigger. One consistent trigger that is the same all the time. Carrying a pistol without a holster is stupid and not appealing at all. Nor is it more safe to do with a DA SA then a stricker fired gun its equally stupid with both designs. A DA trigger is not safer. More ND's were logged with cops using revolvers than with autos.
Pat
Sorry dont understand the relavance of you preference of triggers. The DA/SA do not "Blow" anymore than a Glock trigger "blows". There are defferences and people have preferences. I personally like a 1911 trigger with a hint of take up and a fair amount of overtravel. Most would say that my last 1911 with a 2lb pull "blowed" I shot better that way(less pinning the trigger to the frame).
Also for what its worth the first shot out of every gun has the exact same trigger pull distance. It is from where you trigger finger is resting to where the trigger goes off. The subsequent shots may be different but the DA shot is just as effecient as any other pistol if you train for it. Sigs, as a rule, have the DA part of the trigger very smooth which makes it very easy to press through it without noticing it. I fully agree that if you had to reset the trigger all the way back to the DA it would be more of an issue, but you dont.
As I said before I would own a Sig again if the decocker was different. I would love for Sig to go the HK route where the decocker is on the back of the slide. I am actually considering a Beretta 92A1 and will be taking out a Beretta 92 shortly for some fam-fire.
Not defending the current state of Sig, but the current state of Sig has nothing to do with weather a DA/SA is viable.
El Pistolero
06-26-11, 13:13
If a 1% return rate is "piss poor QC," then we should all stop buying firearms.
Are you mad?
Sorry, but you were already called out as being a Sig fanboy so I'm dismissing everything you've ever said in this thread, no offense as I don't know you personally. But the majority here are bashing Sig for their recent QC problems and gimmicky marketing and this is relevant to me because I was seriously considering a factory-new Sig P226R and after what I've read here I'm going with something else.
Nothing wrong with being a fanboy, I'm a fanboy myself of certain brands but Sig-Sauer isn't one of them despite how much I loved my surplus P6. Do I want to like them? Yes, but this thread is showing me what a circus their QC, management, and queer marketing has been and I have been steered in a different direction.
I haven't heard many complaints about Beretta. Their PX4 line seems to be a dead end, but the 92 series (to include the 92A1, M9A1, 90Two) still seem to be generally trouble-free.
Disclaimer - I'm not big on Beretta's either.
As per a Beretta Rep at SHOT Show, the .45 PX4 (special warfare edition I think it's called?) was the only gun to pass every test in SOCOM's trials for a new .45 sidearm.
I've heard - though I don't know of any facts to back it up - that SW hadn't intended for a .45 M&P originally. They built it for the said SOCOM trials, but missed the deadline. Rumor has it that's the reason it was the first with a Dark Earth frame (part of the of the pistol trial requirements). I tend to think this to be true - and that it relates to why people have been seeing amazing accuracy out of the M&P45 line.
Thank you. Ok, I see what you're saying and I think you're right about developing a GOOD polymer pistol earlier or at all would have been beneficial for them. I do think though that, along with the polymer pistol development program you're talking about, they should have kept making the P226 and the P228 to the German specifications /standards from fifteen years ago. Maybe the pistol would be $1500.00, but at least if you wanted one, you would be assured of getting a pistol that you could bet your life on. Thanks again.
SIG does have a good polymer pistol, it's called the SIG Pro. They just need to figure out how to make it with a striker fired system too.
What did the "German" specs/standards entail? Are they really better guns? Do we know the return/failure rate of the older SIGs compared to new ones? I own both the German and US made guns. The only differences that I have noticed is the design of the slide (folded vs stainless) and some MIM parts are used now in both German and US guns. SIG Germany doesn't even make guns like the "old SIG" anymore, so that should be a clue.
I never quite understood why people still recommend the older German guns over the newer more robust design. The stainless slides are stronger, more resistant to rust, have better finishes, better triggers (mine anyway) and require less maintenance. Seems like a no brainer to me.
Sorry dont understand the relavance of you preference of triggers. The DA/SA do not "Blow" anymore than a Glock trigger "blows". There are defferences and people have preferences. I personally like a 1911 trigger with a hint of take up and a fair amount of overtravel. Most would say that my last 1911 with a 2lb pull "blowed" I shot better that way(less pinning the trigger to the frame).
Also for what its worth the first shot out of every gun has the exact same trigger pull distance. It is from where you trigger finger is resting to where the trigger goes off. The subsequent shots may be different but the DA shot is just as effecient as any other pistol if you train for it. Sigs, as a rule, have the DA part of the trigger very smooth which makes it very easy to press through it without noticing it. I fully agree that if you had to reset the trigger all the way back to the DA it would be more of an issue, but you dont.
As I said before I would own a Sig again if the decocker was different. I would love for Sig to go the HK route where the decocker is on the back of the slide. I am actually considering a Beretta 92A1 and will be taking out a Beretta 92 shortly for some fam-fire.
Not defending the current state of Sig, but the current state of Sig has nothing to do with weather a DA/SA is viable.
I agree with Alaskapopo - a DA/SA can be tough to learn. It's much easier to learn SA or striker fired. Sure, the single action of DA/SA is usually very nice - but many designs you have to decock when reholstering for safety issues.
I'd say a 2lbs 1911 trigger would be EXTREMELY easy to shoot. Not my cup of tea - but that's got to be an easy trigger to master. Do you shoot comp?
I agree - HK has the DA/SA triggers down - as far as configuration. FN is following suit with Condition 1 guns. Both these companies have safeties that aren't "upside down". SIGs have a smooth DA.
I have a big Beretta fan that works for me. Keep in mind malfunction clearance on the Beretta guns or if you don't use the slide stop for reloads. The safety/ decocker is right at the rear where most other platforms put their serrations. It's easy to decock and put the gun on safe during a reload / malf clearance - although it's only a training issue.
The break and reset on the 9 series guns are very nice. The PX4 has a nice break, but the reset is very long. I've had some embarassing moments while shooting strings when I don't let the trigger out enough to reset (I don't own a PX4 and shoot striker primarily).
The constant action Berettas are the nicest in my opinion. Putting DAO springs in the DA/SA Berettas help with the trigger pull.
Sorry for the thread drift. Thought I'd share my experiences....
ETA - Send a message to ShipWreck on here if you want some good Beretta information.
Sorry, but you were already called out as being a Sig fanboy so I'm dismissing everything you've ever said in this thread, no offense as I don't know you personally. But the majority here are bashing Sig for their recent QC problems and gimmicky marketing and this is relevant to me because I was seriously considering a factory-new Sig P226R and after what I've read here I'm going with something else.
Nothing wrong with being a fanboy, I'm a fanboy myself of certain brands but Sig-Sauer isn't one of them despite how much I loved my surplus P6. Do I want to like them? Yes, but this thread is showing me what a circus their QC, management, and queer marketing has been and I have been steered in a different direction.
Hahaha! Are you serious?
ETA... Who was I "called out" by?
With all the comments about QC taking a nose dive (or at least going through a rough period) in many firearms companies, I haven't heard many complaints about Beretta. Their PX4 line seems to be a dead end, but the 92 series (to include the 92A1, M9A1, 90Two) still seem to be generally trouble-free.
Beretta cheapened the 92 by using polymer parts for the decockers, trigger, guide rod, laynard loop, and magazine release. It is not critical for these parts to be made of metal, and it doesn't affect the reliability. It only affects users who want to use the Wolff TCU since you need the metal trigger, but not all users want/need it. The Italian 92s are also coming with a roll pin to hold the mainspring housing, but the American 92s still have a solid pin.
Basically they still are still making the 92 up to snuff, and (slowly) improving the line with the M9A1 & 92A1.
This is not counting "OH NOES my new M9/92FS has a small scratch on it!" :rolleyes:
SIG does have a good polymer pistol, it's called the SIG Pro. They just need to figure out how to make it with a striker fired system too.
What did the "German" specs/standards entail? Are they really better guns? Do we know the return/failure rate of the older SIGs compared to new ones? I own both the German and US made guns. The only differences that I have noticed is the design of the slide (folded vs stainless) and some MIM parts are used now in both German and US guns. SIG Germany doesn't even make guns like the "old SIG" anymore, so that should be a clue.
I never quite understood why people still recommend the older German guns over the newer more robust design. The stainless slides are stronger, more resistant to rust, have better finishes, better triggers (mine anyway) and require less maintenance. Seems like a no brainer to me.
HK doesn't use a striker fire system and it doesn't seem to hurt them any. What does that say about the SP? That it's not in the same league as the Glock or HK? I'm not a big M&P fan either. I don't believe it stands up to the Glocks or HKs.
People recommend the older guns because they took a load abuse, high round counts and kept shooting. For awhile, 15 years back, It was the pistol that most LEOs pointed to as the one. Not anymore. I'm not talking about agencies, I'm talking about gun people who carried them for a living. Larry Vickers, among others, stopped recommending the new Sigs. Why would that be? He's not gaining anything either way and as I tried to point out earlier, he's not the final word in pistols either, but his experience and connections to firearms industry certainly go a long way. The Sig classic went from every professional saying it was a great pistol, to far fewer of them saying it. Why?
Also, I know your Sig rep told you that only 1% of their guns are returned, but how do you know that he's telling you the truth? He sells Sigs for a living, maybe he isn't. Maybe the company tells him that, but they're not being truthful. How many companies would say that one of two out every ten pistols is being returned for repair or replacement. Probably none.
Have you considered that both Sig Germany and Sig USA don't make guns like the old ones anymore because of cost issues? I'm just fine with the "marketing" guns, like the diamond plate one etc. If it draws more people, that's what marketing is for. Khanred said it earlier, they had to cut cost somewhere. Otherwise they would have priced themselves out of the market.
I'm with you. I like Sig pistols. I have a Sig P226 from fifteen years ago that's a superb pistol, but you have to look at what's going on. When guys like LAV and DocGkr stop recommending a product they both once did, you have to think about it. How many guns guys that were Sig guys back ten or fifteen years ago are still buying new Sigs? I'm not saying to take my word for it, I'm saying look around.
Does it matter that much? It's just a tool and if HK is making a better tool now, which IMHO they are, I would rather have that tool. I'm not sentimentally attached to Sig or any other weapon for that matter. Whatever works best for me is what I want. Just my opinion friend.
......However, we as the 1% have the responsibility to say what goes and what doesn't. Why did SIG start using cheaper MIM parts? Because 99% of people would never notice.
It is a double edged sword though. It is also the "1%ers" responsibility to not crucify a company too quickly. I think a good recent example is Randy Lee addressing a small, rare, and unnoticable issue (to but the best of shots) of the M&P9s having some accuracy issues at longer ranges. Once word got out - suddenly everyone with an M&P9 is experiencing awful accuracy. Even if some have the affected pistols - they probably wouldn't have otherwise noticed it. I recently heard the "bad accuracy" thing locally - so word does spread. M4C is the stage and the firearm enthusiasts are our audience........
There's really no room for BS here. Something is either good or it isn't. If it isn't - the users of m4c will let people know. I also think this is part of the reason why some of the "flashy" SIG models are getting hated on so bad. It's because SIG's QC is slipping at the same time some of these colorful guns are coming out. If their QC was still world class - I think it would be a lot more excusable.
A good example.... I can almost gaurantee that if Magpul put out Pink or Purple PMAGS tomorrow - many here would buy them. Because they know that PMAGS are solid. They aren't a joke. So putting them in a girly color is humorous. If C-Products or TAPCO put out a Pink or Purple mag.... the users here would have a field day making fun of it.....
I think that this sums up this whole thread perfectly.
Also, the bolded section at the end should be permanently attached to the top of every page here right under the advertisement bar, in 20 Pt. Bold, with the addition of "with whatever force necessary".:lol:
In fact....
I never quite understood why people still recommend the older German guns over the newer more robust design. The stainless slides are stronger, more resistant to rust, have better finishes, better triggers (mine anyway) and require less maintenance.
Speaking as someone that has owned and worked on Sig's P series since 1989 I would agree with every word written here. In fact all of this corrected everything I ever complained about in the '80's and 90's.
But something's got to be going on with something. I spend a fair amount of time on sigforum, mostly in the read only arena, and when I start seeing more and more complaints listed there in their handgun forum I started to watch things more.
Just by the nature of any forum such as sigforum, 1911forum, berettaforum, etc. you're going to find a class of "fanboys" on each. And I'm not belittling that. We all have what we like and love. But when I come across more and more complaints from recent purchasers and their stating "My next gun will be an HK" then there's something wrong. These are the people that theoretically should be defending Sig the most.
Just by the nature of any forum such as sigforum, 1911forum, berettaforum, etc. you're going to find a class of "fanboys" on each. And I'm not belittling that. We all have what we like and love. But when I come across more and more complaints from recent purchasers and their stating "My next gun will be an HK" then there's something wrong. These are the people that theoretically should be defending Sig the most.
Sigforum has a very vocal group of people that believe that anything but folded carbon steel, German proofed, and rail less Sigs are the way to go. Which is part of the reason I rarely read, let alone post in the pistol section on that site.
If you listen to the experts of the forum, like Bruce Gray, he reports that they see less problems like broken rails, cracked slides with modern Sigs, than they see with the older German Sigs.
Do I think QC has gone down? Yes, is it complete trash that some on this forum, and Sigforum try to make it out to be? No, I have six or seven post-Cohen Sigs most have in excess of 10-15k (one of which was featured on P-T.com) through them, none have had issues beyond normal wear and tear.
But what do I know, I'm just a shooter, not someone that complains on internet forums constantly.
HK doesn't use a striker fire system and it doesn't seem to hurt them any. What does that say about the SP? That it's not in the same league as the Glock or HK? I'm not a big M&P fan either. I don't believe it stands up to the Glocks or HKs.
Not having a striker fired weapon does hurt H&K. How many new LE contracts to you see HK getting? If SIG would make a cheap striker fired plastic pistol (SP), it could compete with Glock and S&W in the LE market.
People recommend the older guns because they took a load abuse, high round counts and kept shooting. For awhile, 15 years back, It was the pistol that most LEOs pointed to as the one. Not anymore. I'm not talking about agencies, I'm talking about gun people who carried them for a living. Larry Vickers, among others, stopped recommending the new Sigs. Why would that be? He's not gaining anything either way and as I tried to point out earlier, he's not the final word in pistols either, but his experience and connections to firearms industry certainly go a long way. The Sig classic went from every professional saying it was a great pistol, to far fewer of them saying it. Why?
My duty weapon is a US made P226R 9mm. It has well over 25K rounds through it without a single parts breakage. I can not remember a malfunction that was not induced by me for training purposes. I would say that is a solid pistol and can handle "abuse" just fine. Why do think NSW uses the stainless steel SIGs (226 and 239) now? Because they can handle the abuse and environment that they put them through better than the older models. That's also been stated by serious end users such as Frogman over at TF.
I don't know why The LAV stopped recommending SIGs, but he also called M&P's "shit" and says to avoid Gen4 Glocks. I can say that Kyle Defoor recommends SIGs and Glocks or at least that's what I read on his blog a while ago. Kyle Defoor also didn't have nice things to say about the M&P's. But at the same time, many "experts" here including Doc Roberts, recommend the M&P's. :confused:
So who am I supposed to believe? Or should I just rely on my own personal experience with most popular common service pistols in the common calbers? I think I will go with the later.
Another thing is who cares what is in LEO's holsters? I know that I don't, because I know how the selection process goes... price trumps everything else. Looking at what SOF units around the world carry holds a lot more water (at least for me).
Also, I know your Sig rep told you that only 1% of their guns are returned, but how do you know that he's telling you the truth? He sells Sigs for a living, maybe he isn't. Maybe the company tells him that, but they're not being truthful. How many companies would say that one of two out every ten pistols is being returned for repair or replacement. Probably none.
I don't know if he's telling me the truth or is feeding me a line of BS. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt though. Does anyone here know what the return rates are for any company and or all companies?
Have you considered that both Sig Germany and Sig USA don't make guns like the old ones anymore because of cost issues? I'm just fine with the "marketing" guns, like the diamond plate one etc. If it draws more people, that's what marketing is for. Khanred said it earlier, they had to cut cost somewhere. Otherwise they would have priced themselves out of the market.
From what I understand, the newer slide is more cost effective to make, which is good. I've also heard that they stopped making the older stamped models because certain .mil contracts required the stainles steel slides. They also switched to using some MIM parts (like everyone else) to cut costs.
I'm with you. I like Sig pistols. I have a Sig P226 from fifteen years ago that's a superb pistol, but you have to look at what's going on. When guys like LAV and DocGkr stop recommending a product they both once did, you have to think about it. How many guns guys that were Sig guys back ten or fifteen years ago are still buying new Sigs? I'm not saying to take my word for it, I'm saying look around.
Honestly, I don't care who likes or dislikes SIGs, or any other gun for that matter. Use what works best for you. What you're not understanding is that I am and do look around. At my job I see every make and model (Glocks, SIGs, XD's, Beretta, S&W, HKs and 1911's) in the popular service calibers. While not as great of an example that some have, it's a lot more than what most on here see. What I see doesn't always mirror what some people with agendas try to preach on the errornet, and that results in me being called a "fanboy" or whatever.
Does it matter that much? It's just a tool and if HK is making a better tool now, which IMHO they are, I would rather have that tool. I'm not sentimentally attached to Sig or any other weapon for that matter. Whatever works best for me is what I want. Just my opinion friend.
Like I said before, I don't care if you carry a pink P22 or an Mk23, it matters zero to me. I'm not sentimntally attached to weapons either, but I do see what works and what is having issues. If that goes against the grain of some, oh well.
Not having a striker fired weapon does hurt H&K. How many new LE contracts to you see HK getting? If SIG would make a cheap striker fired plastic pistol (SP), it could compete with Glock and S&W in the LE market.
My duty weapon is a US made P226R 9mm. It has well over 25K rounds through it without a single parts breakage.
I don't know why The LAV stopped recommending SIGs, but he also called M&P's "shit" and says to avoid Gen4 Glocks.
So who am I supposed to believe? Or should I just rely on my own personal experience with most popular common service pistols in the common calbers? I think I will go with the later.
Another thing is who cares what is in LEO's holsters? I know that I don't, because I know how the selection process goes... price trumps everything else. Looking at what SOF units around the world carry holds a lot more water (at least for me).
I don't know if he's telling me the truth or is feeding me a line of BS. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt though. Does anyone here know what the return rates are for any company and or all companies?
From what I understand, the newer slide is more cost effective to make, which is good. I've also heard that they stopped making the older stamped models because certain .mil contracts required the stainles steel slides. They also switched to using some MIM parts (like everyone else) to cut costs.
Like I said before, I don't care if you carry a pink P22 or an Mk23, it matters zero to me. I'm not sentimntally attached to weapons either, but I do see what works and what is having issues. If that goes against the grain of some, oh well.
Your duty weapon has 25,000 rounds through it. That's one weapon. Yes, it's your personal experience and it has obviously been a good weapon for you, but it's ONE gun among thousands.
LAV stopped recommending Sigs because as a whole, because they've become less reliable. I believe he's made that clear a few times. The 9mm M&P has accuracy problems and the Gen 4 9mm Glocks have reliability problems. As I said he has nothing to gain from recommending or not recommending anything.
Actually what I said was there are plenty of LEO GUN guys who loved the old Sigs and won't recommend the new ones. There is a reason for this. Not quite what you're saying about what LEOs in general carry.
Think about this for a minute. If a company has a high return rate on products, do you really think they're going to tell you that? Not very likely. That will put them out of business quickly.
Yes, I said they had cut costs to compete in the market, hence, what others have been saying; lower quality parts. Yes, I've seen Frogman say that he likes the new guns, but what everyone is maintaining is that SEAL pistols get better parts and the best QC, hence my comment about building them to the same standard as 15 years ago.
Your gun has been a good one. I get that, but that doesn't mean the company is putting good product out in masses.
Have a good Sunday.
Sigforum has a very vocal group of people that believe that anything but folded carbon steel, German proofed, and rail less Sigs are the way to go. Which is part of the reason I rarely read, let alone post in the pistol section on that site.
If you listen to the experts of the forum, like Bruce Gray, he reports that they see less problems like broken rails, cracked slides with modern Sigs, than they see with the older German Sigs.
Thinking back on the posts of sigforum I do recall that you're quite right on the "Rails are ugly and I'd never put a light on my gun for people to shoot at" crowd.
But that still doesn't address the fact that the complaints I'm refering to are regarding malfunctions or extractor complaints. Which goes right back into line with the thread here.
All that said, the one Sig that I currently own is an American made P 226R that I purchased in 2005. It's the best Sig that I've ever owned, and I've owned a large number.
I've ran it suppressed, unsuppressed, thousands and thousands of rounds. Hell it's the gun I took to the academy with me and it outperformed a German P226 in the class. In fairness that gun had been given to a female Officer two days prior to her leaving for Hutchinson. She'd never even fired it before and it had all aftermarket magazines. I wound up loaning her all three of my German made mags and it only cleared up a percentage of her problems.
At this juncture there's no way I'd ever get rid of my existing P226R. But then again I normally carry a G19 or 26 every day.
I don't know if he's telling me the truth or is feeding me a line of BS. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt though. Does anyone here know what the return rates are for any company and or all companies?
Likely not (a real number) on the first question and absolutely not on the second part of the question. Even at that, return rates don't necessarily paint the whole picture, because a gun that spends the vast majority of it's life either in the safe or in front of a camera isn't as likely to incur a functional issue. I'm not getting into whether or not different makes have different percentages of their products being put into hard use versus being safe queens, just pointing out that just because a company has xx% of guns never darken their door again after being shipped out isn't the whole picture.
GermanSynergy
06-26-11, 21:41
My 2009 production P226 R "Elite" didn't hold a candle to my early 1990s P228 in terms of accuracy. It was pretty disappointing, actually. It certainly didn't shoot as well as my old 1987 Sig P226 did, with identical ammunition.
It was the last SIG product I'll ever buy, period.
I carried the P228 while in the military and thought it was an outstanding handgun, so I'm no SIG hater.
As others have said- it takes years to build a good reputation, and no time at all to ruin it.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
06-26-11, 22:02
My 09 P239 and my '10 P220's were damn good guns. I have nothing bad to say about Sig from personal experience. But, I will say that if more and more people continue to report problems, then obviously something bad is brewing.
My 2009 production P226 R "Elite" didn't hold a candle to my early 1990s P228 in terms of accuracy. It was pretty disappointing, actually. It certainly didn't shoot as well as my old 1987 Sig P226 did, with identical ammunition.
It was the last SIG product I'll ever buy, period.
I carried the P228 while in the military and thought it was an outstanding handgun, so I'm no SIG hater.
As others have said- it takes years to build a good reputation, and no time at all to ruin it.
From my personal experience, my old 1990 West German P228 has been the best Sig I've ever owned in terms of reliability, durability, and accuracy. Second best was the German P226 I was issued in 1995.
Sigs that I have used for either personal use or duty use have been a 1990 P228, a 1992 P228, a 1994 P226, a 1998 P230, a 2000 P229 .40, a 2002 P220 .45, a 2003 P239 9mm, a 2004 P229 .40, a 2007 P226R 9mm, a 2008 P229R .40, a 2009 P220R .45, and a 2010 P229 E2 9mm. Most of them have had between 5000rds-25,000rds through them depending on if they were used for duty. I also have personal experience working on a little over 200 various duty Sigs for my department. Without a doubt, we have had less trouble with the older guns in 9mm even though our officers seem to abuse them more(because they are old). Second best would be older P229s in .40, although they seem to loose their accuracy much faster due to parts wear. I've run into a lot of out of spec slides on the new guns in which sights would slide right out of the dove tail, and extractors that would pop out during firing(even after a couple of extractor replacements). Small part failures in the frame have also been common, in addition to a few out of spec frames.
I can understand that Sig has to cut corners somewhere in order to keep the prices down, but for users like myself it is unacceptable. There are enough combat induced failures alone to also worry about without the increased chance of mechanical failures. I'd rather pay more money for the better QC and superior materials than take the risk. I will continue to use my old P228s on duty until we transition to something else as I feel that they have been the best overall guns in the inventory. I've been very impressed with H&K's guns lately and would love to transition to a V3 P30.
I love my P226 andd P225, but this thread makes baby jesus cry.
So you are too emotionally attached to your tools to understand what is being said? :suicide2:
So you are too emotionally attached to your tools to understand what is being said? :suicide2:
Are you speaking about me? I retired my Sigs last year and went M&P because they are lighter. Before that I carried, trained, and competed with various Sigs.
I am just annoyed by people that haven't had a single issue with Sig constantly posting how much Sig sucks. Very few people that post on this subject actually have a Sig that doesn't work. I feel the same way about any other brand, way too much hearsay and axe grinding on the internet.
I am just annoyed by people that haven't had a single issue with Sig constantly posting how much Sig sucks. Very few people that post on this subject actually have a Sig that doesn't work. I feel the same way about any other brand, way too much hearsay and axe grinding on the internet.
Why would anyone have an axe to grind?
SIGs into bling these days. Besides, they are a rifle company now, if you hadn't heard.
I'm a believer that the older German SIGs are better, but my Exeter P220 Carry SAO had no issues in about 750 rds before I sold it. I also had a 556 but sold it to go to two AR builds. I haven't completely divested of SIGs, as I've kept my first pistol (P220 KF) and P226 KF as well. Both are worked over the way I like them and I still enjoy shooting them from time to time.
But HK is what I carry, for good reason.
Rhino
Why would anyone have an axe to grind?
Do I look like a psychic? I can't say why a segment of people spend so much time putting down Sig. Glock is the only other brand where I've seen haters this bad.
Do I look like a psychic? I can't say why a segment of people spend so much time putting down Sig. Glock is the only other brand where I've seen haters this bad.
Honesty? Objectiveness?
"Internet hearsay" I hear this all the time, does everyone know this IS the Internet?
Bob
Honesty? Objectiveness?
Objectiveness without a true picture of the overall issue. For all we know their return rate might be the same but the internet magnfies the issue. Hell if I listened to the internet Glocks explode, M&Ps don't extract nor can hit the broad side of a barn, XDs rust, and good luck calling Hk.
Do I think Sig has had some issues lately? Yes, but it's no where near the level that some make it out to be, at least with the classic pistols.
"Internet hearsay" I hear this all the time, does everyone know this IS the Internet?
There is a diference between first person accounts on the internet, and hearsay.
I love my SIG 226. Of course, not only does it say "Made in Germany" on the slide, it says, "Made in W. Germany" on it.
My daughter shoots it a lot. Amusing to her that she wasn't even born yet when the wall fell.
A medium sized department in my area used to allow almost all "popular" service pistols (SIG, Beretta, HK, XD's, S&W, Glock and 1911's Kimber/Springfield) in the common calibers. They recently changed the policy for new recruits that the only handguns that they can choose to purchase are Glocks, M&P's and the P22X Series SIGs in 9mm, .40, .45. Now, if the problem with Classic SIGs is so wide spread and everyone is having issues, then why wouldn't they discontinue the use of them too?
This does not help your point. Police department decisions are made by administrators who most likely couldn't even tell you the difference between a Glock or an H&K. Since they allow such a broad range of calibers, makes, and models it sounds like they just broad stroked the major brands for approval. LE agencies buy a lot of crap, just look at all the departments that issue DPMS.
I have "first hand experience" with this subject.
This does not help your point. Police department decisions are made by administrators who most likely couldn't even tell you the difference between a Glock or an H&K. Since they allow such a broad range of calibers, makes, and models it sounds like they just broad stroked the major brands for approval. LE agencies buy a lot of crap, just look at all the departments that issue DPMS.
I have "first hand experience" with this subject.
Nope, the decision was made by the armorer. I have known him for years and talk to him often. Their issued patrol rifles are Colts.
This does not help your point. Police department decisions are made by administrators who most likely couldn't even tell you the difference between a Glock or an H&K. Since they allow such a broad range of calibers, makes, and models it sounds like they just broad stroked the major brands for approval. LE agencies buy a lot of crap, just look at all the departments that issue DPMS.
I have "first hand experience" with this subject.
+1
The only reason my agency still uses Sigs is because we have had a large influx of hand-me-downs from other agencies that are dumping their Sigs. Feds cannot sell off their old inventories to the public, so they have to sell them to another agency or have them destroyed. Sig has also been offering to replace many agency pistols and long guns for free with new Sigs even if the old guns were not Sigs. Kinda like Glock did in the early days to get their products out in the LE environment. Sig is also very aggressive in selling their products to smaller departments so that their procurement officers have very little work on their end and they can get their step increase at their next evaluation.
Another example of a department not using the best judgment in selecting equipment is with patrol rifles. I've worked in a number of districts around the country and it always amazes me what departments use. Olympic in Orlando, Armalite in Miami, Rock River in Denver, and DPMS in Vegas. My agency recently went from Colt and FN to the option of using DPMS and Armalite. Just because the option is there, doesn't mean that they are all top tier weapons. This is a very common example of armory procurement for almost all LE agencies. Some larger agencies have their s**t together such as ATF which sets a standard, and then does extensive testing to determine the best piece of equipment for the job. Not sure how their Gen 4 G22s are working out in the long run, but at least their initial purchase had a good foundation.
+1
The only reason my agency still uses Sigs is because we have had a large influx of hand-me-downs from other agencies that are dumping their Sigs. Feds cannot sell off their old inventories to the public, so they have to sell them to another agency or have them destroyed. Sig has also been offering to replace many agency pistols and long guns for free with new Sigs even if the old guns were not Sigs. Kinda like Glock did in the early days to get their products out in the LE environment. Sig is also very aggressive in selling their products to smaller departments so that their procurement officers have very little work on their end and they can get their step increase at their next evaluation.
The department that I am speaking of does not have an "issued" pistol. They have to buy their own, so there's no free offering or any of that happening. I have never heard of SIG or H&K giving away guns/leather free for trade on the old guns/gear. Glock and S&W still do it all of the time though.
Another example of a department not using the best judgment in selecting equipment is with patrol rifles. I've worked in a number of districts around the country and it always amazes me what departments use. Olympic in Orlando, Armalite in Miami, Rock River in Denver, and DPMS in Vegas. My agency recently went from Colt and FN to the option of using DPMS and Armalite. Just because the option is there, doesn't mean that they are all top tier weapons. This is a very common example of armory procurement for almost all LE agencies. Some larger agencies have their s**t together such as ATF which sets a standard, and then does extensive testing to determine the best piece of equipment for the job.
Like I said above, the issued patrol rifle is a Colt for who I am talking about.
So I guess since the ONE department you are talking about issues Colt rifles, and allows officers to purchase Sig pistols, then I guess Sig= Colt?
30 cal slut
06-28-11, 15:44
Interesting concept. Shitty execution.
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f15/30calslut/massmoon.gif
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f15/30calslut/sig250b.jpg
GermanSynergy
06-28-11, 15:48
Interesting concept. Shitty execution.
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f15/30calslut/massmoon.gif
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f15/30calslut/sig250b.jpg
What a total piece of shit that turned out to be.
Haven't had any issues with my 229R in 357 Sig, but I'll note that I wouldn't touch a SIG 238,250, Mosquito, 556 or 516 with a10 foot pole. I do think SIG has made a few steps forward with the SRT trigger and the E2 grip... reports about QC issues and the bling guns are pretty damn depressing.
-Tom
I understand SIG needing to be fiscally solvent and attractive to its investors.
(A) But F*CK all this barbie bullshit.
(B) How about enhancing the efficiency of production for all pistols, bringing back the QC from the days of old, and making SRT standard on all platforms that can support it?
(C) Possibly pass some production-efficiency savings on to the consumer (and LEAs) by an across the board, permanent price drop (and market the HELL out of it)?
(D) Make a REAL SIG 55X ... Make three models and make them well (12.5", 16", 20"). Sell accessories for those models like rails and real classic handguards separately.
(E) Possibly explore advanced metal coatings in an effort to increase corrosion resistance while increasing lubricity.
(F) Exploring different rifling types for their pistol barrels that can be made using their current cold hammer forging machines (polygonal, ratchet, 5R, etc.) to increase velocity, improve accuracy, and increase barrel life.
These are just a few ideas that would substantively improve SIG's product lineup and position in the industry.
These suggestions would improve the quality of the pistol and ownership of it. However, "SIG needing to be fiscally solvent and attractive to its investors" and your suggestions are counter to each other. Making the best product does not equal making money doing it.
A. Cuts Revenue -- As a manufacturer you have 2 options 1. have models and goofy "limited editions" that make money or 2. raise your prices on your core models across the board to profitable levels (See HK).
B. Increases Costs -- additional QC AND additional built in options without a price increase would be a loss leader.
C. Increases Costs and Cuts Revenue -- Increased QC AND Additional built in options AND a price drop is a fast lane to Bankruptcy court. selling a 100,000,000 pistols at a loss just multiplies the loss and gets you there faster.
D. From a product strategy makes sense. The accessories however gets trickier - who's going to pay for the R&D, are you going to manufacture in house or outsource, who's going to handle distribution, etc. There's already a great aftermarket. They'd be better off focusing on their core competency - designing and building firearms --and leaving the hard core accessories to their partners.
E & F. Increases Costs dramatically. Both are R&D. Research and Development is a Cost Center and a large one. Granted it's an investment in the future and is the heart of many manufacturers but the size of that budget is in direct proportion to Revenue and in a lesser degree Profit. You have to have money to invest it.
I'm no fan of Cohen and if i was a sizable investor in Sig I'd be working diligently on his ouster. He's killing the brand and systematically eroding a reputation that took decades to build. Neither is a viable long term strategy nor easy to get back once lost. It took Coke 10 years to recover and they weren't losing cash during the New Coke debacle. Sig doesn't have that luxury.
I don't begrudge them or any other business of wanting to make money - that's why you're in business. When inflation is factored in the price has held fairly constant the past 20 years. I'd gladly pay more in todays dollars for a weapon on par in quality to what was built 10 years ago. It's in my interest for them to be around to support the platform should I need it.
Just my .02
Code3Patriot
06-28-11, 22:58
I have never heard of SIG or H&K giving away guns/leather free for trade on the old guns/gear. Glock and S&W still do it all of the time though.
You have never heard of it happening, but I am here to tell you that it does. My department (over 800 sworn) turned over our duty Sigs (P226, P229) back to Sig, in return the department received new P226R and P229Rs. So yeah, it happens.
Magic_Salad0892
06-28-11, 23:07
1) Shitcan the entire 516 series.
2) Make 556 Series classic, with no rail system. Do not produce a rail system or any aftermarket parts.
3) Manufacture SIG 551 magazines true to spec.
4) Shitcan every sig model that is not a ''Classic Sig'', in 9x19, .40, .45, and .357 SIG.
5) Increase quality control on Classic models.
6) Continue selling bling models, with reduced QC. Market them as limited edition runs.
7) Classic models come with 3 magazines.
8) Offer threaded barrel options.
9) Shitcan ChiCom red dots.
10) Shitcan the stupid 556 pistol.
11) Reintroduce the SIG P225.
12.) Produce a sub $600 striker fired polymer pistol.
13.) Offer single stack version of that pistol.
14.) Offer a steel framed version of that pistol.
15.) Invest HEAVILY into R&D, for barrel making, and materials coating.
16.) Offer true to .mil spec ''Navy'' Model 226, and M11 pistols. Stamp those model P228 as ''M11''.
17) Stop offering M1913 rails on EVERY pistol, customer must request it, with increased cost.
That would bring SIG BACK in 10 years. Guaranteed.
These suggestions would improve the quality of the pistol and ownership of it. However, "SIG needing to be fiscally solvent and attractive to its investors" and your suggestions are counter to each other. Making the best product does not equal making money doing it.
A. Cuts Revenue -- As a manufacturer you have 2 options 1. have models and goofy "limited editions" that make money or 2. raise your prices on your core models across the board to profitable levels (See HK).
B. Increases Costs -- additional QC AND additional built in options without a price increase would be a loss leader.
C. Increases Costs and Cuts Revenue -- Increased QC AND Additional built in options AND a price drop is a fast lane to Bankruptcy court. selling a 100,000,000 pistols at a loss just multiplies the loss and gets you there faster.
D. From a product strategy makes sense. The accessories however gets trickier - who's going to pay for the R&D, are you going to manufacture in house or outsource, who's going to handle distribution, etc. There's already a great aftermarket. They'd be better off focusing on their core competency - designing and building firearms --and leaving the hard core accessories to their partners.
E & F. Increases Costs dramatically. Both are R&D. Research and Development is a Cost Center and a large one. Granted it's an investment in the future and is the heart of many manufacturers but the size of that budget is in direct proportion to Revenue and in a lesser degree Profit. You have to have money to invest it.
I'm no fan of Cohen and if i was a sizable investor in Sig I'd be working diligently on his ouster. He's killing the brand and systematically eroding a reputation that took decades to build. Neither is a viable long term strategy nor easy to get back once lost. It took Coke 10 years to recover and they weren't losing cash during the New Coke debacle. Sig doesn't have that luxury.
I don't begrudge them or any other business of wanting to make money - that's why you're in business. When inflation is factored in the price has held fairly constant the past 20 years. I'd gladly pay more in todays dollars for a weapon on par in quality to what was built 10 years ago. It's in my interest for them to be around to support the platform should I need it.
Just my .02
I agree with a lot of these points. SIG is a complex issue and one that really pulls on my heart strings. I have been shooting SIGs since the 80's and remember fondly their black blocky teutonic shapes. Back then rails were not even possible and we had to be happy with a two tone slide.
People longed for SIG to be more "market focused" & have more options. And we got what we asked for. Still somewhere along the way, maybe it was the 6th version of the 226, SIG jumped the shark.
The fact is that pre Cohen SIG was almost insolvent & the bigger fact that people seem to miss is that the owners of SIG knew what Cohen was & hired him because of it.
From what I am told Luke & Ortemeir (the owners) have their head way up Blaser's ass & really don't care about SIG Sauer except that it stay profitable. The legacy that we want to remember SIG for is not what the owners envision for the company. Personally I am more concerned that they have not been able to successfully put together a winning weapon since the introduction of the P series.
You have never heard of it happening, but I am here to tell you that it does. My department (over 800 sworn) turned over our duty Sigs (P226, P229) back to Sig, in return the department received new P226R and P229Rs. So yeah, it happens.
Thanks for letting me know. I have never heard of SIG under bidding Glock and S&W with the P-Series. Was it because your dept. was looking for a SIG for SIG trade? Or did they put out bids to the other companies?
I have mostly seen HK USP's getting traded for new M&P's/leather and SIGs for new Glocks etc at no additional cost.
1) Shitcan the entire 516 series. Agree
2) Make 556 Series classic, with no rail system. Do not produce a rail system or any aftermarket parts. Does SIG produce the rail or is it cheap aftermarket crap? I'm not familiar with them.
3) Manufacture SIG 551 magazines true to spec. The 556 uses AR mags.
4) Shitcan every sig model that is not a ''Classic Sig'', in 9x19, .40, .45, and .357 SIG. Shitcan the P250 and expand on the SIGPro line.
5) Increase quality control on Classic models. I'd have to see the numbers to see if there's a QC problem. I've never seen it, but that doesn't mean that there isn't more or less than before.
6) Continue selling bling models, with reduced QC. Market them as limited edition runs. I would get rid of all bling and "beavertail" models. Offer black, 2-tone and stainless for the stainless frame models.
7) Classic models come with 3 magazines. LE models come w/ 3 mags and 2 mags with the civi's (just like all other brands)
8) Offer threaded barrel options. They already do.
9) Shitcan ChiCom red dots. Agree
10) Shitcan the stupid 556 pistol. Agree
11) Reintroduce the SIG P225. They don't make the old folded slides anymore, so they can't. Plus, the P239 is a better carry and "hard use" pistol.
12.) Produce a sub $600 striker fired polymer pistol. Produce a SIG Pro striker model.
13.) Offer single stack version of that pistol. Agree
14.) Offer a steel framed version of that pistol. Not needed IMO
15.) Invest HEAVILY into R&D, for barrel making, and materials coating. SIG pistols are already known for their accuracy and the Nitron finish is pretty durable.
16.) Offer true to .mil spec ''Navy'' Model 226, and M11 pistols. Stamp those model P228 as ''M11''. I believe that the Navy's are now produced with the phosphate internals and mags (Nitron is a better finish anyways- Phosphate is just parkerizing). I think enough people bitched and they fixed that. SIG did release some "M11" marked P228R's a short time ago.
17) Stop offering M1913 rails on EVERY pistol, customer must request it, with increased cost. Agree- maybe call it a "true classic" or something. ;)
People longed for SIG to be more "market focused" & have more options. And we got what we asked for. Still somewhere along the way, maybe it was the 6th version of the 226, SIG jumped the shark.
I remember this too. People were saying "SIG better get with the times and add a rail or they're done." People also bitched about the standard finishes, the lack of grip options, that they are more "maintenance" than the competitors, and they wanted a different trigger action etc etc.
So they add a rail to "get with the times" and people bitch now. The current design is less maintenance, better finish (nitron), more durable and has the "DAK" and "SRT" trigger options. Now a lot of the die hards put a premium on the stuff that they used to complain about and want German made guns. :confused:
The new big bitch for "true" SIG fans is that they now come standard with the "E2" grip which turned out to be very popular. The kicker is, if the gun comes with the E2 grip and you want the old style of grips, all that you have to do is put on the old panels. If you're gun didn't come with the E2 grip and you want the E2, then you have to change some internals too which is more expensive. They're damned if they do and damned if they don't.
http://tjscustomgunworks.com/Photos5/HelloKitty-rawtailDSC_5056b-1024.jpg
Oh Lordy....my 7yr old daughter would ADORE that pistol!!! :suicide2:
30 cal slut
06-29-11, 09:57
Shitcan ... everything...
I think a change in management would result in much of what you listed.
Flashy (and in my opinion absolutely retarded) marketing is no substitute for solid, reliable product. Lives depend on these products. The market is not about BBQ guns.
Oh Lordy....my 7yr old daughter would ADORE that pistol!!! :suicide2:
Fortunately, that's not a factory model.
Magic_Salad0892
06-29-11, 11:01
snip
1) Glad we agree.
2) SIG makes it AFAIK.
3) I know it uses USGI magazines, that's a design flaw, and it needs to stop.
4) Shitcan all current SIGPro models, and make SIGPro the poly-striker gun mentioned earlier.
5) It'll reduce risks greatly at the very least.
6) Bling models make money, and the people who buy them aren't serious, so you don't have to waste money on QC.
7) I know, but civilians like magazines too, give 'em three. It'll help sell guns.
8) I know.
9) Glad we agree.
10) Glad we agree.
11) People like the steel framed single stack gun. Make it happen, because there IS a market for it.
12) That's what I meant.
13) Glad we agree.
14) Somebody would buy it, and there isn't another one on the market.
15) Heavy R&D and constant improvement is needed to secure the market place in the future, and it's also needed to not suck.
16) They should make them a standard gun though, and the M11s should also be standard, with the same amount of QC the military guns get. They would sell to both Bubba, and the serious shooter.
17) They'd find something much gayer...
Couldn't they just have a "Classic Custom" line (or whatever they want to call it), with the quality of the 80's german made guns? They could charge whatever it takes to be profitable They could continue with all of their other crap for those who don't care.
acaixguard
06-29-11, 16:41
My first gun was a SIG, and it was a great quality piece of engineering at the time. I stopped shooting it and sold it cause I moved away from DA/SA in time, but I have always respected the quality of SIGs...till now. Very sad to see a wonderful company go down this path.
Sleeper362
06-29-11, 19:02
My opinion is the problems with Sig QC, and crazy offerings are an effect of capitalism at work. Since we have elected our current POTUS, every bubba and their brutha feels they need to go out and buy a gun. You also have to take into account that these same people grew up admiring their great grandpappy's shotgun with deers and ducks and crests and all sorts of other bullshit on them. Now they see these 'editions' of guns and think, "hey if I buy this and they outlaw the sale of new guns, I may have a collectors item that will be worth a double wide." Sig is giving them what they want and they are flying off the shelves. I mean think about it, I would venture to say that Taurus and Ruger have the top selling pistols right now, so to the people that would buy those pistols a crappy Sig is actually an upgrade.
Sig is currently acting like a corporation and not an arms manufacturer. These are the things that happen in the business world when everything is based on stock performance and EBITDA. Due to these cold hard facts, companies are no longer being ran by leaders, they are ran by accountants and marketing execs. Sig is a prime example of current business practices in the current world economy. The problem with this is we put our lives on the line with their products and bean counting does not bode well when it comes to reliability.
As far as my personal experience with Sig products, my wife owns a rainbow P238 for her CC gun. I know I know, its gayer than AIDS. She liked it, it works well, and its better than nothing and light years ahead of any other pocket .380 in my opinion. If it makes her happy that her gun is cute and if that fact alone makes her want to shoot it more, I am OK with the finish. As long as it goes boom when she pulls the trigger the finish doesn't matter. Its has ran through 1000+ rds. in her hands and about 200 through mine without a single malfunction. In my case I am confident with her choice of pistols.
Carniemedic
06-30-11, 10:33
Here is my personal experience with Sigs. I bought a P226 Navy online in February 2011 from http://www.reedssports.com. I chose it because it was only $37 more than a standard P226. When I received it and upon inspection, it did come with phosphate coated internals, chrome lined barrel, three mags, and that cool ass anchor on the side ;). It was very accurate out of the box but I found the trigger to have a gritty feel when I slowly pulled it through its DA. It also had a pretty noticeable slide rattle but it didn’t seem to affect performance. I was pretty happy with the pistol overall. Sig had a Father’s Day promo for custom shop services and shipping rates. I sent it in for an action enhancement package, service package/slide rattle eval, and front sight install because I wanted my POI raised. I added a note to the gunsmith basically stating that I am aware that some slide rattle is normal for the design but please evaluate because this seems excessive; if you find it to be within spec then your reassurance will suffice but if not please fix. It cost me $217.85 and it only took a week and a half to get the pistol back. I found that the AEP was awesome the trigger was very smooth in both DA/SA and the SA break was terrific. The gunsmith fit the slide to the frame (according to his notes) so that the rattle went away. The pistol has been flawless before and after the preformed services and it’s nearing the 700 round mark. My thoughts, I wish the gun had come stock with the “action enhancement package” and came without the apparently loose slide to frame fit. I would have just paid the $217 extra at my initial purchase and saved the trouble of sending it in. Over all I have to say that I am very happy with my 226.
I bought a .40 caliber P239 SAS gen 2 in May. I choose the SAS because for about $150 more than a standard P239 I got night sights and a SRT. The trigger is one of the best DA/SA pulls that I have felt. The slide to frame fit is great and It has been flawless through 400 rounds. The only issue is when I grip it high and don’t watch my right hand thumb it willsometimes rest on the slide release lever causing it not to lock back after the last round is fired. I have to say that I am very happy with this pistol as well.
I’m a firemedic, I'm not in the military or a LEO. My field of expertise is not with weapons, but more in line with starting IV’s and tending to drunk carnies who use weapons on each other so take my opinion with than in mind. I think my two models of Sigs are great guns but for the price I think that my P226 should have came with the same quality as my custom shop SAS so I guess that is a ding for my P226’s initial QC. On the other hand both pistols are accurate, have been flawless except for user induced failures, and I have to say that my experience with their customer service, custom shop, and fast shipping was excellent.
This thread makes me happy I bought backups to my backups, for all my old Sigs. They'll last through my life and then some, but the Grandkids will need to get a new system eventually.
Shit, I'm still putting trouble free rounds through my Browning BDA P220 that I bought new for 250 bucks, and shot the piss out of for years.
Magic_Salad0892
06-30-11, 10:44
Here is my personal experience with my Sigs. I bought a P226 Navy online in February 2011 from http://www.reedssports.com. I chose it because it was only $37 more than a standard P226. When I received it and upon inspection, it did come with phosphate coated internals, chrome lined barrel, three mags, and that cool ass anchor on the side ;). It was very accurate out of the box but I found the trigger to have a gritty feel when I slowly pulled it through its DA. It also had a pretty noticeable slide rattle but it didn’t seem to affect performance. I was pretty happy with the pistol overall. Sig had a Father’s Day promo for custom shop services and shipping rates. I sent it in for an action enhancement package, service package/slide rattle eval, and front sight install because I wanted my POI raised. I added a note to the gunsmith basically stating that I am aware that some slide rattle is normal for the design but please evaluate because this seems excessive; if you find it to be within spec then your assurance will suffice but if not please fix. It cost me $217.85 and it only took a week and a half to get the pistol back. I found that the AEP was awesome the trigger was very smooth in both DA/SA and the SA break was terrific. The gun smith fit the slide to the frame (according to his notes) so that the rattle went away. The pistol has been flawless before and after the preformed services and it’s nearing the 700 round mark. My thoughts, I wish the gun had come stock with the “action enhancement package” and came without the apparently loose slide to frame fit. I would had just paid the $217 extra at my initial purchase and saved the trouble of sending it in. Over all I have to say that I am very happy with my 226.
I bought a .40 caliber P239 SAS gen 2 in May. I choose the SAS because that for about $150 more than a standard P239 I got night sights and a SRT. The trigger is one of the best DA/SA pulls that I have felt. The slide to frame fit is great and It has been flawless through 400 rounds. The only issue is when I grip it high and don’t watch my right hand thumb it willsometimes rest on the slide release lever causing it not to lock back after the last round is fired. I have to say that I am very happy with this pistol as well.
I’m a firemedic not in the military or a LEO. My field of expertise is not with weapons, but more in line with starting IV’s and tending to drunk carnies who use weapons on themselves so take my opinion with than in mind. I think my two models of Sigs are great guns but for the price I think that my P226 should have came with the same quality as my custom shop SAS so I guess that is a ding for my P226’s initial QC. On the other hand both pistols are accurate, have been flawless except for user induced failures, and I have to say that my experience with their customer service, custom shop, and fast shipping was excellent.
Accounts like this make me happy. The SIG pistol is my second favorite pistol design, and I wish they'd get their shit together, permanently. Not just for certain people.
I don't know what is worse, Sig producing rainbowpimp guns, or Sig owners doing silly stuff like putting pile tape to the rear of their ejection ports to protect from little brass kisses.
"WHY ON EARTH DOES THE X5 USE THIS PROVEN UNRELIABLE extractor system. It takes very little time to look over the competition oriented boards to see just how many x5 users have guns they cant run because of extraction issues."
Saw it with my own eyes; a grand master almost cried.
polydeuces
07-14-11, 23:52
+1
In 08 I Attended a Bruce Gray class and one of the students had an X5. Lasted about 5 rounds. This after being "fixed" and returned by SIG for the second time. Loaned him my old beat up P226 which ran flawless all 2000+rds over 3 days.
Seeing Mr Gray shaking his head made me realize to stick with what's proven to work as a rule of thumb.
But I think we're just confirming a well-known fact here.
Littlelebowski
07-28-11, 09:22
Please cease with the PMs, folks. I don't know when SIG is coming out with their leopard print P226. Soon, I am certain.
Please cease with the PMs, folks. I don't know when SIG is coming out with their leopard print P226. Soon, I am certain.
How has your T&E gun held up to repeated pictures?
Please cease with the PMs, folks. I don't know when SIG is coming out with their leopard print P226. Soon, I am certain.
That one comes with matching, ahhhm, garments, no?
I may be in the market...
Okie John
Littlelebowski
09-22-11, 15:02
http://pistol-training.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/SIG-PiMP.jpg
[i mg]http://pistol-training.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/SIG-PiMP.jpg[/img]
I hear there is an accompanying announcement coming from Fobus concerning a holster for that winning combo.
goneshootin88
09-22-11, 15:25
. . . so tactical. It's every mall ninja's wet dream
polydeuces
09-22-11, 16:21
WHY....WHY...:bad:
Who is the crackpipe sucking redbull guzzling retarded boardroom crasher who comes up with this shit at Sig?
Someone really must've put some bad shit in the drinking water in Exeter....how else can they have something as basically rock-solid as the P220, 226 etc and then totally i mean totally shred every bit of credit with off-the -charts stupid shit like this....and lets not even mention some of the other newer offerings.
How hard could it really have been to join the 21st century, build a bomb-proof no frills straight forward solid"plastic" gun and keep on rocking...but nooooooo.....that must have been too much to ask for.
I'm at the point were I rather look in the used showcases and find a nice older model than buy the new crap that's being dumped on the market.
I think the same.
Your logic is sound, but one thing and one thing only keeps me from abandoning the P226 for the G19. I shoot better with the SIG.
It's kinda like carry handle mounted optics, I've done it for so damn long that is what I'm most used to. Despite the "different" trigger on the Glock, I am so used to a SIG in my hand (since 1985) that is what I point best with.
Also I think most people forget a DA/SA handgun is just that. It is BOTH. You can actually cock the hammer before you fire your first shot IF the situation permits. Having grown up in the "revolver" days this is something almost everyone knew how to do. Some of us even got really good at cocking it "on the draw and presentation" with very little cost in time on target.
Seems about the early 90s such antics became verbotten and range officers would have kittens if they saw you do it. And what was once a standard cowboy skill is now a rare and esoteric thing that only crazy people and sorcerers would attempt.
To me it seemed simple enough, if you have the time you can cock your weapon for all "consistent" shots and if you have the luxury of time you probably are shooting at distance where you want that SA trigger pull. And if you don't have time things are "now and right in front of you" and you should be able to manage with that initial DA pull just fine.
Now if you were going to stick me in a "everything that moves needs to die" environment, I might change. In fact I will probably want a G34 with nothing but G18 magazines. But for civilian defensive carry I think I am best served with my P226.
As for LE I tend to cringe when I see them with Glocks. There are so many times as a matter of procedure where a LEO will point a weapon at you with no current intention of shooting you. And not all of them are 100% about that finger on the trigger rule. If I have to pick a weapon for "officer friendly" to point at me while he establishes my friend or foe status, I think I'd rather give him a DA/SA SIG. But I won't go so far as to tell LEOs what they should and shouldn't be allowed to carry.
Huge +1
Cocking a hammer or rendering a gun safe was mandatory skills for old time LE. Now it seems the modern LE officer is incapable of this.
If a 1% return rate is "piss poor QC," then we should all stop buying firearms.
Are you mad?
I work in an industry where 1 return out of a million is unacceptable.
I just saved every picture in this thread to a folder on my hard drive so I can pull this stuff out when I have to deal with an idiot.
I work in an industry where 1 return out of a million is unacceptable.
Heh, I was sending back 9% of of new Sigs that were purchased by DOI within the first 1000rds for issues that could not be resolved by an armorer. 400 P226R .40s in August of 2008(37 sent back), and 300 P229R .40s in September of 2009(28 sent back).
Our first purchase of Sigs was 4000 P228s in 1992. Only 44 of those were returned within the first 1000rds, so only 1% of these older Sigs had problems that could not be fixed by an armorer. We added more and more to the inventory, and ended up selling some to other agencies. We stopped keeping these return records in the late 1990s as it didn't seem necessary. We started keeping track again in 2008 after a large purchase of P226R .40s had a lot of issues in 2006.
Alaskapopo
09-22-11, 20:13
I just picked up this West German Sig (1987)
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Semi%20auto%20pistols/sig226.jpg
As for the comments on LE DA SA guns are not safer. If you practice unsafe gun handling you will still have just as many issues.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aSJgcpqePk
Gee that gun in the video is not a Glock but rather a DA SA Beretta. When my first department went to Glocks the qualificaiton scores went up on average 15%, which I credit to the single trigger pull that is reasonable in weight with a quick reset. The low bore axis also helps. The officers at that department were carrying a mix of Beretta's, HK's and Sigs at that point all DA SA guns.
Pat
http://pistol-training.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/SIG-PiMP.jpg
Please tell me that you photoshopped that from a Cheaper-Than-Dirt Catalog or something, and that it is not an official Sig product. It looks like something Tango/Cash would have carried. Phillips heads holding this thing together? Really?
Code3Patriot
09-22-11, 22:27
A tac light/laser, mount and RDS for $259.95? That just oozes quality. I'm sure you'll hear about this combo somehow in the "Tales From CCW" thread. :D
Please tell me that you photoshopped that from a Cheaper-Than-Dirt Catalog or something, and that it is not an official Sig product. It looks like something Tango/Cash would have carried. Phillips heads holding this thing together? Really?
Sorry, it is not photoshopped, it is the "real deal" from the crack smoking corporate monkies at SIG Sauer USA.
I got the rail/scope/laser e-mail too. I about spit my beer all over my iPhone when it popped up.
Received this ad in my email. Glanced at just the top half of the picture and insta-deleted. I feel bad for that P226.
GermanSynergy
09-23-11, 01:36
I just bought a pair of Gamblers to show to my friends when we play cards and I wear a cowboy hat. :p:moil:
Lookin' at the P220 with Diamondplate as well.
Littlelebowski
09-23-11, 06:30
Were you going to post anything of substance, KevlarSix?
A surfire, ctc lazer grip AND an rmr ??? Lots of red dots eh?
Nephrology
09-23-11, 08:39
A surfire, ctc lazer grip AND an rmr ??? Lots of red dots eh?
It's like Predator.....
http://i.imgur.com/4LkpP.jpg
Dude that pic is perfect! I wonder if he left room on that Sig foir the magazine?
http://pistol-training.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/SIG-PiMP.jpg
But wait!! There's more! If you order now we'll also include this set of Ginsu steak knives, watch as we cut through this can, and now a tomato....................
Littlelebowski
09-23-11, 11:21
Call now, supplies are limited!
Littlelebowski
09-23-11, 11:33
I think it's only a matter of time before some big agencies/units dump SIG. Besides of course, the Federal Air Marshalls dumping the P250 :D
I think it's only a matter of time before some big agencies/units dump SIG. Besides of course, the Federal Air Marshalls dumping the P250 :D
I actually got called in by my chief to discuss possible ways to get out of using DOI Sig contracts. After our last order of P232s, we're all pretty disgusted by how bad the quality is getting. Glocks are probably what we are going to push for in getting approval to switch on a local basis.
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