View Full Version : BCM: Hammer Forged vs Standard
saddlerocker
06-21-11, 18:29
How important is the Hammer forged barrel?
BCM only has the standard upper in stock, and it is more near what I want to spend anyways.
I assume it would still be far better than most others for $400, but can anyone explain the differences?
Their website says its the same steel, does anyone know how the barrels are made if not hammer forged?
Just looking for opinions while I mull this purchase over
Thanks in advance
Here is a pretty good explanation of the different barrel making techniques.
LINK (http://bettincustomguns.com/Technical%20Information/Barrel%20rifling%20techniques.htm)
M4C thread (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=52759)
BCM only has the standard upper in stock, and it is more near what I want to spend anyways.
Looks like you should get the standard. I understand the difference in barrel production and I don't see any real benefit over the standard barrel.
I got the 14.5" mid length with the standard barrel and couldn't be happier.
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5220/5448192471_beb8ba03e8_b.jpg
I would only buy a hammer forged barrel.
As an FYI, we have BCM BCG's available (with the purchase of an upper). ;)
C4
saddlerocker
06-21-11, 20:14
great link clint, very informative, thanks
Sounds like hammer forged is considerably better, but Considering that lots of really good barrels are button rifled I dont think im worried about it.
Thanks grant, I just bought a PSA Premium BCG last weekend during their fathers day sale.
Its gonna be a week or 2 before i order the upper, well see if the Hammer forged is in stock when im ready, hopefully one of the 2 is :P
FWIW: Colt doesnt CHF their barrels and they seem to do pretty well.
Although I wouldnt turn down a CHF barrel either if I came across one for a good price.
snackgunner
06-21-11, 21:25
I would only buy a hammer forged barrel.
C4
Why? Just curious..
saddlerocker
06-21-11, 21:34
I would assume if I wanted to do lots of classes/competition/ super heavy use I would pay the extra $90 and get one, but for my once a week casual use I dont think I require it.
Although I suppose it is nice to have the proper equiptment if you ever decide to step your game up.
I would love to do some IDPA/USPSA with my M&P9, or 3 gun or anything else, but there really isnt anything close to me (1hour away minimum) unfortunatly. Maybe someday Ill find a good class and devote some time to it. But thats another topic.
Why? Just curious..
Accuracy and round count.
C4
I would only pay the extra for the hammer forged if it was all that was in stock. If it was in stock and the standard was not, I would gladly pay the extra for it.
Robb Jensen
06-21-11, 21:46
I find accuracy best in this order:
1st Stainless match top quality barrels (BCM SS410s, Novekse 7P barrels, Centurion barrels)
Chrome Moly non chrome lined barrels
Certain hammer forged barrels (BCM BFG, Noveske N4 and Centurion chrome lined)
Stainless 2nd tier quality ones
Standard chrome lined AR barrels from everyone else
snackgunner
06-22-11, 14:35
Does anyone know if BCM plans on making 12.5" HF barrels in the near future?
Standard BCM barrels are more than sufficient, they are mil-tec and better than most manufacturers offer. I have two BCM standard barrels and more happier than a puppy with two peters.
I would go with the standard barrel if you're on a budget. Which upper are you looking at? BCM has the 16" and 14.5" midlenght in both standard and BFH in stock.
I just purchased a BCM 16" mid length and decided to go with the hammer forged barrel. I am sure either one would work just fine. This will be my first mid length upper, cant wait to try it out and compare it to the carbine length upper.
Has anyone actually done any accuracy testing between a hammer forged and standard BCM barrel?
I would love to see the results of a few groups with the only difference being the Hammer or Standard.
I have been pretty impressed with the accuracy of my BCM 14.5" standard.
Cameron
Has anyone actually done any accuracy testing between a hammer forged and standard BCM barrel?
I would love to see the results of a few groups with the only difference being the Hammer or Standard.
I have been pretty impressed with the accuracy of my BCM 14.5" standard.
Cameron
I haven't seen any, but I'd like to see it too.
FWIW, most of the hammer-forged fans cite longevity though, which is harder to quantify.
I find accuracy best in this order:
1st Stainless match top quality barrels (BCM SS410s, Novekse 7P barrels, Centurion barrels)
Chrome Moly non chrome lined barrels
Certain hammer forged barrels (BCM BFG, Noveske N4 and Centurion chrome lined)
Stainless 2nd tier quality ones
Standard chrome lined AR barrels from everyone else
Robb,
Interested in how you'd rank the DD Hammer Forged barrels among the other examples you listed. As accurate as the BCM and Noveske N4, or more along the lines of most standard chrome lined offerings?
Also never having fired a BCM BFG against a Standard BCM would the accuracy differential be enough to notice during the course of shooting a class, match, or in an actual engagement or are we talking an accuracy difference noticed during slow fire with match ammo from a bench or bipod? Just curious.
I haven't seen any, but I'd like to see it too.
FWIW, most of the hammer-forged fans cite longevity though, which is harder to quantify.
In that regard the question of the day would be, who has seen a shot out standard barrel and how long, many rounds, did it take vs. the hammer forged counterpart?
There is only a $70 difference in the 14.5" BCM barrels but I really would like to see just how much of a difference in "longevity" there would be... They both have the same chrome lining after all.
I suppose I really would like to know as I may be in the market for a new barrel for my SBR soon...
Cameron
In that regard the question of the day would be, who has seen a shot out standard barrel and how long, many rounds, did it take vs. the hammer forged counterpart?
This is what I'd like to know, how many on average for each? I've been told by gunshops :rolleyes: you can't wearout a modern barrel :rolleyes::rolleyes:. After somewhere in the neighborhood of 12k-15k through my XD I noticed a considerable decrease in accuracy than when I first bought it. Springfield wanted $300 to replace the barrel and I needed to ship it to them at my expense :rolleyes: I paid $400 for it brand new, **** that I sold it and bought a Glock.
Thomas M-4
06-26-11, 22:57
Not all CHF barrels are made the same.
If you look at the process that DD uses it forms the chamber and throat. What that means is you will have a very consistent barrel from one to the next one , to the next one ,to the next one, to the next one, to the next one , to the next one and so on. With a cut throat and chamber you have set up tolerances changes, a tooling wear changes, which play into the mix.
With forging the surface of the metal becomes denser from the forging process.
This is what I'd like to know, how many on average for each? I've been told by gunshops :rolleyes: you can't wearout a modern barrel :rolleyes::rolleyes:. After somewhere in the neighborhood of 12k-15k through my XD I noticed a considerable decrease in accuracy than when I first bought it. Springfield wanted $300 to replace the barrel and I needed to ship it to them at my expense :rolleyes: I paid $400 for it brand new, **** that I sold it and bought a Glock.
Curious, did you try changing out the recoil spring on the XD?
Not all CHF barrels are made the same.
If you look at the process that DD uses it forms the chamber and throat. What that means is you will have a very consistent barrel from one to the next one , to the next one ,to the next one, to the next one, to the next one , to the next one and so on. With a cut throat and chamber you have set up tolerances changes, a tooling wear changes, which play into the mix.
With forging the surface of the metal becomes denser from the forging process.
Does this imply that there are multiple hammer forging techniques?
Also, would this imply that DD barrels are more consistently accurate than other offerings?
I call it, "nice but not necessary". It's an aspirational product for most (not in regards to economics but in regards to usage).
SilentReaper66
06-27-11, 08:50
I have a standard 16" middy from BCM and I have no problems with it. It's pretty accurate too!
SomeOtherGuy
06-27-11, 09:23
Does this imply that there are multiple hammer forging techniques?
Also, would this imply that DD barrels are more consistently accurate than other offerings?
All hammer forged barrels use the same basic technique, but there are variations; basically whether the mandrel on which the barrel is forged is for only the rifled part of the barrel, with the chamber cut later in a separate step, or if it includes the chamber so that the barrel is complete internally after the forging.
Another variation is whether the barrel's outer profile is machined after forging, or if it's left in final form from the forging machine. Steyr does the latter and most other makers do the former. Post-forging machining of the outside contour can alter internal dimensions.
As for accuracy, it would require testing. The DD barrels also have a fairly loose chamber based on the ones I own. That's good for reliability but isn't likely to help accuracy.
More information is here:
http://technology.calumet.purdue.edu/met/higley/
saddlerocker
06-27-11, 10:14
Just a side note,
I read somewhere that there are only 3 Hammer Forging Machines in the US. so all the US made hammer forged barrels come from one of 3 origins.
But you cant beleive everything you read on the interwebz.
I think it was in a thread about Palmetto State Armory releasing new CHF uppers soon.
Thomas M-4
06-27-11, 10:39
Does this imply that there are multiple hammer forging techniques?
Also, would this imply that DD barrels are more consistently accurate than other offerings?
Yes there are ,I have a CHF FMP G-3 barrel that the chamber and flutes look to have been cut. Which manufactures do what I cant tell you I only know that DD has shown the process that they use.
I don't know if I would call them more accurate but they should have a more consistent performance from one barrel to the next.
In that regard the question of the day would be, who has seen a shot out standard barrel and how long, many rounds, did it take vs. the hammer forged counterpart?
There is only a $70 difference in the 14.5" BCM barrels but I really would like to see just how much of a difference in "longevity" there would be... They both have the same chrome lining after all.
I suppose I really would like to know as I may be in the market for a new barrel for my SBR soon...
Cameron
you're right. this is like the car advertisement that has wipers that will stay on the windshield at 185 mph. I don't doubt they will but who is ever going to utilize that? I'm sure there are some but the advertising is not marketed to that person.
I got no dog in this hunt as I have all non-CHF barrels. I don't worry about it, when they get shot out, I'll replace them with what's available. I'll be honest, trading use among the few I have, I don't think I'll shoot one of my guns enough to wear out a standard chrome lined barrel...
my next question is about the accuracy. do the CHF barrels have the chrome plating applied before or after the hammer forging?
it seems the chrome lining reduces accuracy in a barrel. I have seen data that non-lined CHF barrels are more accurate but do we have accuracy data on any that are chrome lined?
shaneinhisroom
06-27-11, 11:52
I've also been wodnering about this question- seems like I don't need to get a CHF barrel. I only put about 4-5000 rounds a year through my AR, and so far my RRA has kept me clicking very happily!
I've also been wodnering about this question- seems like I don't need to get a CHF barrel. I only put about 4-5000 rounds a year through my AR, and so far my RRA has kept me clicking very happily!
I'm not saying I don't recognize the benefits. I'm just saying it doesn't make much difference to me at this point.
is there really $70 worth of longevity benefit and how would that be determined?
how great is the difference in accuracy? is that even a valid issue on a carbine that will be shot from field positions with a RDS???
Thomas M-4
06-27-11, 12:32
In a AR-15 platform with barrel changing being more simplified and only requiring a few specialty tools or even just pop the 2 take down pins and drop in a new upper. The longer barrel life of CHF doesn't seem quite as beneficial. But if you consider other platforms HK roller locked , AK's, and others that the barrels are pressed and pinned into the trunnions and barrel changing require considerable effort compared to a AR-15 then having a barrel that will give you the longest service life possible makes a lot more sense.
All hammer forged barrels use the same basic technique, but there are variations; basically whether the mandrel on which the barrel is forged is for only the rifled part of the barrel, with the chamber cut later in a separate step, or if it includes the chamber so that the barrel is complete internally after the forging.
Another variation is whether the barrel's outer profile is machined after forging, or if it's left in final form from the forging machine. Steyr does the latter and most other makers do the former. Post-forging machining of the outside contour can alter internal dimensions.
As for accuracy, it would require testing. The DD barrels also have a fairly loose chamber based on the ones I own. That's good for reliability but isn't likely to help accuracy.
More information is here:
http://technology.calumet.purdue.edu/met/higley/
Thanks for the info!!!
Curious, did you try changing out the recoil spring on the XD?
Yep.
How many rounds on filthy 14?
I have the BCM 16 LW BHF upper on my RRA and after 700 rounds I am happy. The barrel turned a light grey shade during the range session. Barrel got hot but no decrease in accuracy, 2in at 100m. I would buy another but probably in the "recce" configuration.
How does ARP barrels compare. I just bought and installed the 223 Wylde, 16" LW profile QPQ finish barrel. Lost exactly 1lb when I swapped out of the WOA 18" SPR barrell.
ARP makes a decent quality barrel. However, I don't know of anyone that has run them for serious round counts. The jury is still out on the longevity of melonited barrels. I have one of their barrels in 6.8 SPC and it's amazingly accurate for the price.
SomeOtherGuy
07-01-13, 08:22
ARP makes a decent quality barrel. However, I don't know of anyone that has run them for serious round counts.
Same here. I've got one of their uppers, and a barrel that's currently being assembled into an upper. I have not seen any issues with them, and they seem well made, but I can't provide any test data or any impressive anecdotal report.
The jury is still out on the longevity of melonited barrels.
I'm not sure that's really true. There's certainly decades of data for melonited pistol barrels, and they seem to hold up several times longer than untreated pistol barrels. Not identical to rifle conditions, but there is an obvious longevity benefit for pistol barrels, and I can't see any reason that rifle barrels wouldn't have a similar benefit. And there are an increasing number of larger volume companies now selling melonite treated rifle barrels - Smith & Wesson, Daniel Defense, and AAC, for example.
Μολὼν λαβέ
07-01-13, 09:04
I have a standard 16" middy from BCM and I have no problems with it. It's pretty accurate too!
I have 14.5" and 16" standard profile barreled uppers from BCM. I just didn't think I would need their BFH barrels so I didn't buy one. I really doubt I'll put 10,000 or even 5,000 rounds through either. For one thing, I couldn't afford it.
AssGasOrBrass
09-03-15, 17:50
Just a side note,
I read somewhere that there are only 3 Hammer Forging Machines in the US. so all the US made hammer forged barrels come from one of 3 origins.
But you cant beleive everything you read on the interwebz.
I think it was in a thread about Palmetto State Armory releasing new CHF uppers soon.
A little off topic but:
FN is the a large producer of CHF barrels. They make barrels for PSA, BCM, Spikes, Noveske and others. So are all barrels by those brands the same since FN makes them all? NO. FN makes them to the specs provided by the buyer (PSA,Spikes,BCM ect). Also Features like quality control cost money so FN's contract with company A for 100 barrels may require that %25 are checked for QC while contract with company B may only require 10% go through QC.
In my opinion PSA complete uppers offer fantastic value. I purchased a 18" CHF complete upper from them and it shoots lights out. Sub MOA. Cost me about $500 and shoots better than uppers that cost twice as much. I have consitered buying a complete upper from PSA just for the barrel selling the remaining parts on EE or keeping them for a future build.
A little off topic but:
FN is the a large producer of CHF barrels. They make barrels for PSA, BCM, Spikes, Noveske and others. So are all barrels by those brands the same since FN makes them all? NO. FN makes them to the specs provided by the buyer (PSA,Spikes,BCM ect). Also Features like quality control cost money so FN's contract with company A for 100 barrels may require that %25 are checked for QC while contract with company B may only require 10% go through QC.
In my opinion PSA complete uppers offer fantastic value. I purchased a 18" CHF complete upper from them and it shoots lights out. Sub MOA. Cost me about $500 and shoots better than uppers that cost twice as much. I have consitered buying a complete upper from PSA just for the barrel selling the remaining parts on EE or keeping them for a future build.
FYI, that post you quoted is over 4 years old.
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