AAR: Vickers Tactical Advanced Pistol/Carbine Class, June 17-19, 2011 – Moyock, NC

[m4fun]

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Vickers Tactical
Advanced Pistol / Carbine Class
June 17-19, 2010
U.S. Training Center, Moyock, NC.

Nobody posted yet so here is a quick AAR – folks who attended please fill in the gaps.

Another fine course at the US Training Center. Not quite what it used to be, but still a great facility. This class was geared toward more advanced students. Quite visible from the caliber of the students observed. It was really great to see lots LAV alumni as well as meet some dialed-in new folks.

Day 1 – All pistol. Mostly Glocks except an issue Beretta Vertec, an issue Sig and one XD that LAV didn’t even rag on. All performed quite well. Temps were in the upper 90s – very hot and very draining as you can imagine.

Covered the LAV’s favorite of trigger squeeze and its evil enemy, el snatcheroo. Everyone was pretty dialed-in. Ball and dummy drills, time drills, trigger reset drills and the “Humbler.”

Most of the concepts were applied in team drills and a walk back that went back all the way and ended in a tie at approx 120m!

Day 2 – Mostly carbine. Very hot again…

LAV reviewed some of the setups seen in the class. To his pleasure, most optics were Aimpoints. A couple of Trijicons TR24s and Eotechs as well. Started with dialing in at 25m and zeroing/confirming at 100m. LAV had some discussions of different distances to zero and recommended 100m as best all around. Next we covered timed drills at different distances in different positions, working our way all the back.

LAV had us concentrate on accurate well placed shots as opposed to firing fast, wasting ammo and not on target.

Some transition work and shooting on the move completed the day. Oh, and barriers…lots of focus on barriers! Barriers and team drills with barriers. With 5 barriers lots of movement from barrier to barrier.

Day 3 – Principles of both pistol and carbine with firing at the movers and firing from vehicles. Temps wise very nice...though I sucked!

We got to partake in some of the benefits of US Training Center. Firing at the steel movers, carbine and pistol. We had some technical difficulty but that what easily remedied my moving to a range close down the road. Moving targets requires you to concentrate on the leading edge and not stopping to fire but continuing to follow through. Naturally this lead to team drills where pressure was on.

During the course LAV discussed his warning against using steel for most training. Concentrating on accuracy of the bulls eye contrasted with variance of shots landing at opposite corners. Just overlay target against an upper torso piece of cardboard and its self-evident.

We proceeded to fire at both static steel and then from the mover in pairs on the back of Paul’s truck moving across the range from side to side(Larry had remodeling going on in the back of his truck this go round). Just like the “Humbler,” this was a true eye opener at many levels.

All in all – class was great and as mentioned, caliber of personnel attending excellent. This can easily be said by class veterans and well as newbie’s(who mostly were not new to good training).

Thanks Larry and Paul.

[30 cal slut]

During the course LAV discussed his warning against using steel for most training. Concentrating on accuracy of the bulls eye contrasted with variance of shots landing at opposite corners. Just overlay target against an upper torso piece of cardboard and its self-evident.


Very interesting, I was wondering what his view was on the subject. It's easy to get carried away on steel.

[d90king]

Great class with a great group of shooters! I will do a AAR when I get back in town. Thanks for starting this M4...

[VA_Dinger]

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Outstanding class, this is the start of the photos;

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[VA_Dinger]

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[Heavy Metal]

Most of the concepts were applied in team drills and a walk back that went back all the way and ended in a tie at approx 120m!


I don't think they were going to let you and me go into the road for the tie breaker.

[VA_Dinger]

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[scope4140]

Great class! I will also mention that my EOTECH held up great during the three days. I should go get a lottery ticket... :D

[VA_Dinger]

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[m4fun]

I don't think they were going to let you and me go into the road for the tie breaker.

No kidding - between your SPR G17 and my G19 w/RMR...

As a comment, i know not the best idea to bring new "untested" gear to a training. My first serious outing with the One Source Tactical RMR sight. Accuracy, definitely - new platform and speed sucked! Need to work on speed. Definitely one was given up for the other and it was evident on both my performance on the walkback and negatively on target acquisition/presentation. Just looked back at how GermanSynergy and I did last year...wow.

I know, practice, practice, practice

[Heavy Metal]

"SPR G17 "

SPP man, SPP!:D

I put my Gisele SSA in my rifle the night before class. There is a transition peroid for that too with the differing reset point. I am still getting used to it.

[Jack Burton]

Thanks for posting the pics. It was great meeting all of you. Minus the weather, I had a blast and I look forward to seeing you all in a future class.

[Jack Burton]

Great class! I will also mention that my EOTECH held up great during the three days. I should go get a lottery ticket... :D

Well, my Sigs both held up just fine as well :) I brought the DDM as a back up but I didnt need it.

[MTechnik]

"Phil" here.

This was an awesome class.

Got down there the day before, had dinner, got settled into the Black Bear Inn. Not deluxe, but fully functional - besides spotty cell coverage on AT&T.

Grey Group, who organized the training, had let us know where to be and when, a few days in advance.

Day 1:

All Pistol. In the morning we went over the fundamentals - starting with the 4 rules. It was noted that almost everyone was shooting a glock. Larry put a big focus on accuracy the entire time. We used custom targets with a smaller black area than the usual target. It costs more - but he wants everyone focused on accuracy.

We worked a lot on trigger control - doing the old favorite "put an empty casing on the front sight, gun empty, make the casing not fall" and then working on trigger reset - again with a partner, where they'd rack the slide so you can feel the reset of the trigger and start to build the association. It's a great drill.

We did a walk-back drill before lunch on 12" steel plates that went to 120 yards. I was happy to ring steel at 80 with my 2nd attempt.

In the afternoon we did a modified form of the humbler, which as it does, gave me plenty of feedback. I'll need to run that again and take notes on my performance.

Weather-wise, it was close to 90 and sunny the entire time... a couple of nice breezes, but it could have been better. Sunscreen was important.

Day 2:
Carbine

We started out with a qualifier - prone from 100 yards, sitting from 75, kneeling at the 50, and standing at the 25. 10 shots each time, starting with 1 minute, and knocking off 15 seconds at each stop. It was tough to get 10 shots in 15 seconds at 25 yards with my TR-24r.

We covered sling use and transitions to pistols through the day. Then moving later to moving and transitioning to pistols. Along with this was discussion about when and why you'd do this.

The day was a killer with the heat being 99 when we checked into the hotel at the end of the day - I'm sure it was higher earlier in the day. We all felt the effects the next day.

Personal notes from this day - great training on shooting and moving, posture while doing so. The tr-24r wasn't the fastest optic to have up close - but it didn't hamper me horribly enough to want to ditch it. If I were doing a home defense carbine, I would pick any other optic - but this being a general purpose carbine, I'll leave it on.

Day 3:

EVERYONE was dragging after brutal day 2.

Started out doing barricade work, and transitioning which shoulder we use, some strong hand and weak hand team drills.

Then we started adding movement to the shooting behind barricades, and more team competitions, speeding things up.

We had an early lunch break... then came back, had some intermittent luck with the moving target (which was awesome to shoot at) and lost some time switching ranges. Once we had good movers again, we shot at it with both carbine and pistol.

At this point Larry had us each come up and shoot, and we saw what happens to our trigger control as we tried to shoot that moving target, getting feedback from Larry on each shot. He paused to talk about how shooting steel can induce trigger snatching and we were all showing it then.

Next we shot from the back of a slowly moving truck at a static target. Then at a moving target. It went from hard to do, to REALLY hard to do. (At this point I got some feedback from the person in the truck with me (a very experienced shooter) that the battlecomp DOES have a sharper report to shooters next to you, even in the open. not as bad as an FSC556, but still far less pleasant than a good flash hider.)

A great experience.

I'm coming up a little shy on stuff from day 2 - I think the sun baked it out of me.

Overall notes:

Larry had a TON of team drills to add a little stress beyond just the beep of a timer, and get us to push ourselves, while still maintaining accuracy - the penalty for missing was far worse than taking your time.

The focus on accuracy never relented - and then on day 3, he took down a target and cardboard backer, and showed the rubber sheet that was stapled to, and it had a nice fist-sized hole in the middle that was destroyed. That focus on accuracy really showing what it can do.

Larry didn't shy away from any question, and gave his opinion on it which is invaluable. This by itself was great information I'd never get anywhere else.

I cannot say enough for the class, or the people taking it. My brain is still processing the information I received, and I look forward to using everything learned to continue growing.

Goodies:
At the end of day 1, the LAV brought out a toy. An HK MP7. We all got to shoot it. I only had 10 rounds:

Here he is cooling it off before my turn, he wasn't afraid the water would hurt it at all:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23kFYu5zmI0

Here are me using my 10 rounds (I wanted to make sure it was on F/A - why waste a shot on semi?!?!):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTzNhlfUp5U

And some of the action from the back of the truck at a moving target:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8w4IT2551U

[Heavy Metal]

Thanks for posting the pics. It was great meeting all of you. Minus the weather, I had a blast and I look forward to seeing you all in a future class.

The weather could have been worse, last year it was. Sorry for no SoCal sea breeze!

[Jack Burton]

The weather could have been worse, last year it was. Sorry for no SoCal sea breeze!

Yeah it could have. I actually thought it would be worse than it was. I did come home with seriously tanned arms though. lol

[VA_Dinger]

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Vickers Tactical
www.vickerstactical.com

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/logo.jpg

Grey Group Training:
www.greygrouptraining.com

New photos curtsey of our friend MAP.

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[VA_Dinger]

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Vickers Tactical
www.vickerstactical.com

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/logo.jpg

Grey Group Training:
www.greygrouptraining.com

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[Littlelebowski]

This review is written concerning the Vickers Tactical three day Advanced Carbine and Handgun class conducted at Myock, North Carolina June 17-19th, 2011 conducted by Larry Vickers (http://vickerstactical.com/), a retired Delta Force operator.

My background:


I am a civilian with eight years of experience as an infantry Marine. I have attended handgun and carbine courses from Larry Vickers and Kyle Defoor. I have additional long range rifle training from my brother (http://www.firearmstrainingandtactics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=901) who is an combat veteran 8541 and 8542 (Marine Scout Sniper).


Equipment used:

Pistol (http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h251/baxshep/Fingergrooves2.jpg): Gen4 Glock 19 with "04" marked recoil spring assembly, White Sound Defense H.R.E.D upgraded spressor spring assembly (http://www.whitesounddefense.com/products/H.R.E.D.-9mm.html), Gen3 smooth face trigger, Vickers Tactical slide release, and Warren Tactical 2 dot tritium night sights. Pistol ammo used was 115 grain ball WWB (Winchester White Box). This pistol had about 4200 rds through it at the time of this class. At about 3500 rds, it started stovepiping regularly. A call to Glock was made and they sent the 04 marked recoil spring assembly. An additional stovepipe made me decide to try out the H.R.E.D depressor spring upgrade. I have had no malfunctions since installing the H.R.E.D. and recommend it to owners of problematic Gen4 9mm Glock owners. That being said, I will note that it is sad that I have to work on a 9mm Glock to make it run as my other Gen3 Glock 19 does. Weapon was not cleaned for the duration of the class and was lubed with Triflo bicycle chain lubricant (http://www.triflowlubricants.com/Tri-Flow_Superior_Drip_Lubricant.html). Weapon was carried concealed AIWB (Appendix Inside Waist Band) in a Custom Carry Concepts Shaggy (http://shop.customcarryconcepts.com/Shaggy-AIWB-SHG.htm?productId=12) for the entire class. Unless safety concerns present themselves, I will always train carrying my pistol concealed in the same manner I do day to day.


I do not recommend Gen4 9mm Glocks for purchase because of my experiences with my Gen4 G19 and my Gen4 G17. Larry Vickers does not either after observing them in classes.


Rifle (http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h251/baxshep/IMAG0125.jpg): S&W M&P15R in 5.45x39mm. This rifle is on its second barrel and is absolutely a high performing, relaible and capable weapon, even at 14k+ rds (barrel was replaced at about 11k rds after being shot out). It is a 16" barreled M4 pattern carbine with Magpul MOE stock and handgrip. Magpul XTM panels allow me to use my weak hand to grasp the nice, cheap YHM lightweight rail without gloves. A Surefire G2 incan (need an LED upgrade, I know!) is attached at about 10 o'clock using a VTAC polymer mount. A Blue Force Gear Vickers padded sling is my slign choice and it performed perfectly with me giving thanks for having the forethought to opt for the padded model. My trusty Aimpoint Micro H1 on a LaRue QD mount is my optic with the standard front sight tower and a YHM rear sight for the iron sights. The entire package performed perfectly; both in reliability and accuracy, and never once let me down, even using the much maligned C Products 5.45x39mm magazines. This was my first time training with a carbine equipped with the LaRue Handstop (http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetactical/Detail.bok?no=465) and the piece worked as advertised, giving me a firm index point that worked perfectly. Ammo used was 80's era Soviet surplus 53 grain 5.45x39mm. Triflo lube was also used on this rifle. The rifle was not cleaned for the duration of the class. I used Kytex mag carriers (http://www.kytexgear.com/AR15.html) and was very favorably impressed with them. Positive retention and easy to slip on and off your belt when say, going to lunch.



TD1:

In order to lay the foundation for the rest of the class, Larry devoted TD1 to pistol shooting. Following a tried and true Vickers theme, no matter if the class is Basic or Advanced, you started off with the basics of marksmanship focusing on trigger control. With a pistol, trigger control is paramount with sight picture a close second. We paired up and worked on smooth trigger presses on an empty pistol while making sure not to knock the empty casing balanced on the front sight. After that, we moved onto command ball and dummy. Your partner hands you a pistol that may or may not be loaded. You apply the fundamentals and fire at the target. If you snatch the trigger and/or flinch, you dry fire properly five times.

After the rehashing of the fundamentals, we were off and running in a very advanced day of pistol shooting. We started working on speed and accuracy drills with emphasis of course being given to the latter as per Larry's philosophy developed after years of experience as a trigger puller and trainer for Delta. The class was formed into teams for competitive drills. Individual and team drills rounded out every lesson with "sleeper" competitors in every team. In other words, it was a hihgly competitive environment with highly skilled fellow students sprinkled throughout the entire class.

One drill that was 10 shots at 10 yards 5 seconds (I think that was the distance, maybe a fellow student could help?) I was certain I had won it and then a mysterious quiet fella beat me by a few fractions of a second which illustrates the caliber of the students at this class. As TD1 progressed, a familiar feeling made itself known. That feeling being "Holy hell, every drill we just ran today was at a longer distance than I normally shoot and I'm doing fine". That being said, we didn't notice we were being pushed by our instructor. Everyone continued to perform well. We ran a modified version of the "Humbler" with ShawnL winning the event and the Rudy Project glasses offered as a prize. Shawn was way ahead of the rest of the class and used a nicely setup Glock 17 set up with an RTF2 frame and an older slide with straight cocking grooves and an X300 (I think) attached.

Another Vickers constant was the targets and scoring. To put it simply, accuracy is the final determination. Hits on target count. In this class, hits in the black count with scoring preference being given in some drills to the hits in the 10 ring. Don't show up to a Vickers class not ready to push yourself to keep all of the rounds in the black. Larry teaches that under stress, your group size will double hence the need to hold yourself to high standards when training.

One of my "aha!" moments of training from my Vickers Advanced Handgun three day class was taught again; this being Larry's explanantion of the "wobble zone." Basically, shooters whether moving or not but especially while shooting on the move get wrapped up in and discombobulated by watching the sight wobble over the target and spend too logn trying to and never achieving the "perfect" sight picture instead of taking the shot as the sight picture momentarily appears. Learning at what distances you can shoot at what speed is important. Obviously you can shoot faster at 10 yards than 25 yards if you know your zero and how you and your weapon perform at varying speed and distances. There's no better way to learn this than from the instructor who will teach the concept and push you.

Shooting on the move helped reinforce the "wobble" lesson. A walkback drill drove home the lesson that at Vickers advancedc classes, you never know who is going to outshoot you. It also helped me see that my rear sights needed to be adjusted right. Luckily Stoney/Paragon6 had a Glock sight pusher on hand.

Shooting steel both static and moving gave instant and authoritative feedback to the students.


TD2:

Today was the start of the carbine training. We zeroed at 100 yards from the prone. Larry pointed out that he does not see the need for magnified optics on a carbine 100 yards and in. Aimpoints on ARs were the rule with two Eotechs malfunctioning throughout the class as Larry predicted they would. After doing a qualifier that consisted of prone at 100, sitting at 75, kneeling at 50, and standing at 25 yard, we spent the rest of the class shooting from 50 yards and in. Individual drills were conducted that coalesced into team drills. One lesson learned is that a 100 yard zero quickly becomes very low at 25 yards. Bracketing the bullseye by a good 6" or half again of the black portion of the target got hits in the center for my team (Team Short Bus!).

Weak handed shooting and transtioning from strong hand to weak hand was taught and with the help of Larry and Stoney (fellow student and VSM instructor), I fixed my technique that needed work on. Switching forward hands, exaggerating the downward orientation of the muzzle got the sling out of my way and made switching shoulders second nature to me. Of course having a red dot sight made weak handed shooting far easier. Larry firmly drove home the fact that backup iron sights should be already deployed in case of optic failure. He advocates a 1/3 cowitness.

This was a grueling day becuase of the heat and humidity. I switched to some cargo shorts and running shoes from my cargo pants and hiking boots and immediately felt better. After lunch, we got a treat in that the class got to watch the upcoming Tactical TV episode (https://danieldefense.com/TortureTest) on Larry's torture test of a Daniel Defense M4. I won't ruin it for those who haven't seen it but let's just say it was impressive to say the least. As always, Larry was absolutely honest about the techniques and methodology used. If you don't want to know the answer, don't ask Larry because no matter what the question is (even about the products he endorses), he will tell you the honest truth as he sees it. Thew new Glock commercial with Gunny Ermey had us laughing out loud and applauding. Folks were pushing themselves hard on this day due to the aforementioned heat. Gatorade and salting your food is strongly recommended.

Transition to secondary weapon (pistol) was taught today. This was covered in a safe yet speedy method, helped immensely by a proper sling. If at 50 yards and in or directly engaging with a carbine and you experiences a malfunction or run out of ammo, immediate transition to secondary is the fastest and best way to stay in the fight.

Reloads were covered along with Larry's excellent techniques concerning malfunction clearing. I can only hope that the US military is using a variant of this after comparing it to the SPORTS technique I was taught in Marine Corps Boot Camp circa 1995.

An unexpected surprise was Larry showing us his full auto dealer sample HK MP7. The entire class shot it. About halfway through, the weapon was getting too hot to hold on the handguards. As a testament to HK engineering and QC, Larry cooled the weapon with a bottle of water that literally boiled out of the weapon's various openings. No lube was added and the weapon was back in students' hands, firing full auto with nary a malfunction.

As on TD1, we shot on paper and moving and static steel.


TD3

Today was the logical extension of everything we had learned in the past two days. A great deal of shooting the move with a carbine and shooting a carbine from behind barricades was taught. As always thoughout this class, the instructor showed us all how it was done and his groups were indeed humbling. Unfortunately, I missed out on the latter half of this training day as I had to drive home and see my brother off to overseas. The last part of this day was spent doing shooting from a moving vehicle.


Lessons learned

- I need to work on bending my knees while shooting on the move. I diagnosed this from seeing pictures of myself during the class.

- as mentioned earlier, swinging the carbine's muzzle down when transitioning shoulders clears the
sling very effectively.

- drive the dot (front sight of the pistol) when shooting at speed! I found out that I need to worry a
little less about the rear sight and concentrate on this. Larry's lecture on the "wobble zone"
helped immensely.

- know your carbine and pistol's zero at both standard and close distances. Pick one distance for each
and at least know the zero for both.

- Aimpoints rule the day. You are far, far less likely to have problems with an Aimpoint than an
Eotech.

- padded slings are a must for your neck.

- one doesn't need load carrying gear, multicam, and drop holsters to be competitive. I made a point
of using a minimal amount of gear and shooting from concealment and my times and accuracy
never suffered. That being said, if you are LEO or military, classes like these are an excellent
opportunity to push yourself in the gear your rely upon every day. As always, safety overrrides
gear everytime.

- there really is nothing comparable to learning from combat vets like Vickers. The class is
deceivingly simple in how he lays the foundations and before you know it, you hammering out
groups at distances you never have shot so well at before.

- searching and assessing with the weapon and having your eyes behind the sights works better for me than simply doing a visual scan. When doing an search and assess in a training or crowded environment, Larry recommends going
into a SUL position to avoid flagging innocents with muzzle.

- you are an absolute fool if you consider yourself a shooter and do not seek out training from people like this.

- As usual, Grey Group made the backend logistics appear invisible.

[Littlelebowski]

Updated with my AAR.