View Full Version : Philly - .Gov imposed curfew. Your opinion?
Philly - A mandatory, government imposed curfew from 8pm - 6am for at least 10 days due to 5 shootings in 3 days. (http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2011/06/25/with-state-of-emergency-in-place-a-calm-night-in-darby-borough/) Constitutional, legal, moral, the right thing to do? What's your opinion?
Personally I think it's over kill and I wouldn't want my freedom of movement restricted due to their over reaction.
Just clarify to those who don't read the link: This is not the city of Philadelphia but a small town nearby.
If the townspeople don't want it they could go to the next city council meeting and complain. However, having been in that area, I can't imagine many of the citizens doing that nor would many know who the Mayor was.
Just clarify to those who don't read the link: This is not the city of Philadelphia but a small town nearby.
You're right, it's a suburb of Philly, Philly's a shithole in it's own right. Next door in Darby Township 2 guys were shot in the back yesterday at a basketball game. Now they've imposed a curfew as well and anyone caught outside after 9pm will receive a $500 ticket. http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Darby-Borough-Instates-Curfew-Darby-Twp-Follows-Suit-124592569.html
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. - B. Franklin
ICANHITHIMMAN
06-27-11, 13:48
Well I dont think they have enough police to make it a worth wile solution and they cant afford any more. Its a long shot, stop gap measure at best. So they can have some time to re evaluate the situation. Force the bars and stores to close early and get the owners involved in taking back their town from the mopes. There is a reason I make my home in the country. Best of luck to them I dont see it helping.
I spend alot of time thinking about this stuff and how it relates to COIN and I realy wish I was in a position to do something about it.
A state of emergency for a few shootings?:confused:
I dont see how this could be legal. So a guy who leaves work at 8 pm and walks home can be fined 500 bucks. Amazing.
Force the bars and stores to close early and get the owners involved in taking back their town from the mopes.
What would forcing bars and stores to close early do other than restrict the amount of money the owner is making? Someone else's illegal actions should not curtail the business owner's success.
ICANHITHIMMAN
06-27-11, 14:47
What would forcing bars and stores to close early do other than restrict the amount of money the owner is making? Someone else's illegal actions should not curtail the business owner's success.
It would upset the owners and then in turn they would start to stand up for them selves and empower the comunity to take back there streets beacuse they are being denied there rights( both owners and patrons) Do you see what I mean? Right now if I was chasing a shooting suspect into a appartment complex and I didnt see where he went no one in there mother would tell me even though they all saw him. If there freedoms are denied and they are smart enough to relize that its beacuse of the guy who just ran through eventualy they will tell me they saw him and were he went to get him off the streets and get there rights back. It wont happen over night and quite frankly not at all as now city in America has the will power for such and action.
Do you see what I mean?
I think so. Basically you want to restrict all law abiding citizen's Constitutional rights in a given area due to the illegal activity of a few who may or may not even reside in that area?
Constitutional rights are not supposed to be arbitrarily taken away due to someone else's illegal actions. Punishing the majority for the actions of a few is not compatible with a free society.
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-27-11, 15:28
Just clarify to those who don't read the link: This is not the city of Philadelphia but a small town nearby.
If the townspeople don't want it they could go to the next city council meeting and complain. However, having been in that area, I can't imagine many of the citizens doing that nor would many know who the Mayor was.
The bad news is that the City Council meeting is at 8:30pm..... :suicide2:
One small thing I don't like about it is that they seem to say that they won't ticket people unless they are in a group milling around- but from reading the article it sounds like it is a general curfew that makes no such distinction. That seems to be common with new laws, they write laws that they say are are only going to be narrowly applied, but surprise, they get widely applied...
Moose-Knuckle
06-28-11, 04:27
Just a sign of things to come. . .
Criminals don't fear the law, they are not punished anymore. So law abiding citizens’ rights go the way side. Slippery slope and all.
A curfew just "treats" the symptoms; it does nothing to cure the disease.
ICANHITHIMMAN
06-28-11, 08:24
I think so. Basically you want to restrict all law abiding citizen's Constitutional rights in a given area due to the illegal activity of a few who may or may not even reside in that area?
Constitutional rights are not supposed to be arbitrarily taken away due to someone else's illegal actions. Punishing the majority for the actions of a few is not compatible with a free society.
Yes its drastic and it sucks and it may not be the right solution for the town in question. I dont live in a free socity thats a joke in my opnion. Would I like it to be diffrent sure I would but what do you do to get it there?
A state of emergency for a few shootings?:confused:
The actual emergency is that Darby (specifically Upper Darby Twp.) is becoming a spillover from Philly. The slop is infiltrating the town.
While the place has been a haven of low-income white dysfunction for decades, the influx of other "groups" has taken the town down at a substantially faster rate.
GermanSynergy
06-28-11, 20:15
What if you're a shift worker, coming and going during these hours? Ah, it says "gun violence". Perhaps a good scolding is in order for those naughty guns, maybe mandating that they be locked up or turned in?
The place has been a haven of low-income white dysfunction for decades, the influx of other "groups" has taken the town down at a substantially faster rate.
How did this get to be about dysfunctional whites and other "groups" and not about the ill-thought use police power by some hole-in-the-wall town mayor?
IMHO, this is complete BS shutting down the whole town because the dumb-ass politicians ignored serious problem for far too long and then didn't fund enough police to handle the results of their piss poor decisions. We have to start holding these officials liable for their incompetence and neglect.
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. - B. Franklin
I'llbet 99% of the populous there never heard that quote let alone who it's by :suicide2:
We have to start holding these officials liable for their incompetence and neglect.
I believe we would be better served to hold the individuals and their shit parents liable for the insanity. Have the town get its act together collectively or let them live like caged animals.
As far as the Philly influx, which agreeably is an outside influence, what does one do? Double the fine or prison term for Phila residents creating havoc in the Twp? Shoot all upon identification (if the scumbags have any)?
They are stuck between a rock and a hard place, but even the Twp's officials are scandal ridden. Every single one needs to go, from the garbage Mayor down. Maybe if they start over with a well balanced, sane group they can reign in their increasingly out of control problems.
I think so. Basically you want to restrict all law abiding citizen's Constitutional rights in a given area due to the illegal activity of a few who may or may not even reside in that area?
Constitutional rights are not supposed to be arbitrarily taken away due to someone else's illegal actions. Punishing the majority for the actions of a few is not compatible with a free society.
Realistically if the local community approves (doesn't revolt or you know civil disobedience) of the idea arguing about whether or not it's "right" is pointless. Just like you can't enforce laws that no one obeys, you can't cry foul about laws that everyone obeys. That is the bottom line in the end.
I can think of a couple arguments that would paint it as reasonable:
1) It's temporary. Courts have upheld many restrictions of constitutional rights as reasonable as long as they are temporary and directly linked to maintenance of public safety. People v. Kearse among others.
2) Curfews are time manner and place restrictions, which are viewed as reasonable restrictions on first amendment rights. Depends on the wording of course.
I grew up in a city that had a 4 (yes FOUR) PM - 7am curfew on minors. It was practically non enforceable, though every so often they would 'crack down.' Mostly it just made every teenager an enemy of the local police. It was an ultra liberal college town too. Either way, I don't think curfews in CONUS are reasonable, it reeks of desperation on part of the local city council and sends a message that they can't keep law and order.
I spend alot of time thinking about this stuff and how it relates to COIN and I realy wish I was in a position to do something about it.
Do what about what? Apply military counter insurgency tactics in a domestic law enforcement capacity? Hopefully I am misunderstanding you.
Either way, I don't think curfews in CONUS are reasonable, it reeks of desperation on part of the local city council and sends a message that they can't keep law and order.
Apparently criminals don't commit crime during the day.
:D
This is another example of Dosomethingitis where politicians just want to look busy when something bad is happening, regardless of whether or not it is helping.
Now they want to make the curfews permanent and more restrictive. People should realize that no rule, law or anything of that nature is ever "temporary" it's simply testing the waters of the people's resistance. http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2011/09/22/mayor-nutter-to-send-curfew-plan-to-city-council/
NoveskeFan
09-22-11, 10:53
As with gun control, we know scum bags will follow the law :rolleyes:
Belmont31R
09-22-11, 11:33
Violates freedom of movement. Simple as that.
I will add what good are rights if any gov entity can just declare something, and wipe them off the slate? Rights are supposed to be there when you need them the most not just when its convenient to your local government. Like taking peoples guns after a natural disaster with looting and wide spread criminal activity. They ain't there just to look at when times are good.
Small towns are some of the worst offenders, too, because generally the people these types of actions effect don't have the money to fight them in court. Not always but many times the amount of justice you get corresponds to how large your bank account is.
GermanSynergy
09-22-11, 13:15
Hows about instead of a bullshit curfew they simply aggressively arrest and prosecute those who break the law in the first place? :confused:
Suwannee Tim
09-24-11, 18:19
.....Criminals don't fear the law, they are not punished anymore.....
Au contraire. 20 or so years ago Florida passed a law requiring felons to serve 85 percent of their sentence minimum. I have read of three murders in the last few days where the murderers had recently been released from decades of incarceration. No, they don't fear the law, they certainly don't fear going back to the joint for the rest of their lives. Maybe they want to go back. Can you imagine how hard it must be to start from scratch at age 45 with a felony record. At least in the joint you know you are going to get the basic necessities of life.
Moose-Knuckle
09-25-11, 17:48
Au contraire. 20 or so years ago Florida passed a law requiring felons to serve 85 percent of their sentence minimum. I have read of three murders in the last few days where the murderers had recently been released from decades of incarceration. No, they don't fear the law, they certainly don't fear going back to the joint for the rest of their lives. Maybe they want to go back. Can you imagine how hard it must be to start from scratch at age 45 with a felony record. At least in the joint you know you are going to get the basic necessities of life.
Going to prison and getting your college education paid for, all the homosexual sex you want, Playboy TV, three hot meals, hot running water, in a climate control cell is hardly "punishment" in IMHO. For many in the oxygen theif culture doing time is badge of honor. I'm talking about the good old days when we use to watch convicted prisoners get devoured by ravenous beasts for our amusement. ;)
Compliance through pain is a universal language.
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