View Full Version : Industry Questions?
Leonidas77
06-27-11, 15:35
Why do gun manufacturers excel in some regards and in others fail miserably?
Examples:
Walther PPQ: This gun looks great. I like the ergonomics, trigger, etc of the gun. Almost every feature of the gun is exactly what a consumer needs. It's as if the engineers at Walther set out to design the perfect pistol. Then, at the last minute, they threw some adjustable sights on the gun, hoping no one would notice. I cannot think of a single person who wants adjustable sights on a combat handgun. Why would they do this?
HK P30 and HK45: Again, awesome guns. They are reliable, accurate, etc. But what's the deal with the stock sights?
M&P 9/40/45: Great guns. But what's the deal with the trigger? I know some people will say, "My stock M&P trigger is great," or "Give it a few thousand rounds and the trigger will 'clean up.'" That's not the point. A large number of people complain about the stock trigger. And a large number of people also pay for an aftermarket trigger job or assembly. Why not provide a great trigger out of the box?
Sig: There's no need to comment on the company's present strategy of selling blue and rainbow colored guns. Still, I've found that Sigs have very weak finishes. My German P228 rusts like crazy and it sits in a safe. My friend's P226 rusts as well. He literally has to clean it every week because it's his carry gun. If he doesn't, the gun turns orange from rust. My other guns don't experience these problems. Why not offer a better finish?
I'm not trying to cause problems on the forum. I hope this thread doesn't erupt into people screaming at each other over why their gun is the best and why it doesn't need anything. No gun is absolutely perfect. I understand that. I also understand the every person has their preferences. But what's the deal?
Is it about price point? Or faulty market research? Or bad management? Or do they just not care? What am I missing?
When something seems inexplicable to you and me, there's usually one of two answers:
1) Cost
2) We have demands, which although we perceive as reasonable, are different from the typical user.
I suspect the answers lie there.
I'm talking out of my ass that has a 200 level understanding of economics and business, but I believe that *most* products are designed with a price point and profit goal in mind first, I.E. the company decides that "we want to make $XXX,XXX/Year off of a $XXX firearm" not, "we want to make the most super awesome weapon evAr." Then looks at the competition at that price and develops its product to compete and meet their goals. If S&W is meeting or exceeding their sales goals in the $600 gun market with shitty triggers (or whatever, I've never used one, just an example) then why spend the hundreds of thousands of dollars developing something different? These guys are all businesses after all.
Hogsgunwild
06-27-11, 16:50
I know what you mean. Every gun I like usually has at least a few things that I would want to change if possible. I don't even mind spending the money on the upgrades but the HK P30 and HK45 for example would need sent out to Grey Guns for about five bills worth of trigger work and Heines which slows my acquisition pace for handguns way down.
I like to look at the glass half full though. The choices that we have now-a-days is evolving into some very fine weapons that are close to everything that I think I want in a handgun (short of a 25 ounce pocket grenade launcher).
The HK45 or P30 with the Walther PPQ trigger (from what I have read anyhow) and some Heine sights could be my handgun nirvana.
I think manufacturers are using consumer feedback and really starting to "get it" and are evolving in the right direction.
Ideally, in a few years, I can press a button on my IPhone for GPS guided air strikes and won't need to carry a gun around anymore.
PPQ: likely because of import points, Glocks compact and subcompacts are imported with adjustable sights too.
Hk P30: Legal rules in Europe from what I understand restricts night sights.
Sig: if it's older Sigs they are bluing over carbon steel. It will rust just like any other blued guns. Modern Sigs with the Nitron finsh have few rusting issues, even when I expose mine to rain only the night sights rust (which are hot blued by the night sight company.)
HK P30 and HK45: Again, awesome guns. They are reliable, accurate, etc. But what's the deal with the stock sights?
Tritium filled sights are illegal in Germany. Now that the HK45 and 45c are made in the US they may start offering true night sights from the factory.
Leonidas77
06-27-11, 20:09
Tritium filled sights are illegal in Germany. Now that the HK45 and 45c are made in the US they may start offering true night sights from the factory.
I got a P30 from Bud's with actual night sights. It was a special offer, but it didn't change the price of the gun. Why not offer it on all guns?
likely because of import points, Glocks compact and subcompacts are imported with adjustable sights too.
If Glock installs fixed sights when the pistols arrive from Austria, why can't Smith and Wesson do the same?
if it's older Sigs they are bluing over carbon steel. It will rust just like any other blued guns. Modern Sigs with the Nitron finsh have few rusting issues, even when I expose mine to rain only the night sights rust (which are hot blued by the night sight company.)
My friend's P226 is a recently manufactured gun. I'm not sure what's going on, but it seems to be a problem for Sig. I remember the K-Coat finish (I think that's how it's spelled) and it was terrible. I think they recognize there's a problem. They just don't know how to fix it.
If Glock installs fixed sights when the pistols arrive from Austria, why can't Smith and Wesson do the same?
then people would bitch about the cheap plastic sights. :o
MountainRaven
06-27-11, 23:06
Tritium filled sights are illegal in Germany. Now that the HK45 and 45c are made in the US they may start offering true night sights from the factory.
I don't know what happened, but all of the HK45s and HK45Cs I have seen of late have been marked 'Made in Germany', complete with German proof marks, &c.
If Glock installs fixed sights when the pistols arrive from Austria, why can't Smith and Wesson do the same?
Likely because they have a different relationship between the companies. S&W is an importer, and Walther might not want to have them modify the guns before delivery.
My friend's P226 is a recently manufactured gun. I'm not sure what's going on, but it seems to be a problem for Sig. I remember the K-Coat finish (I think that's how it's spelled) and it was terrible. I think they recognize there's a problem. They just don't know how to fix it.
K-Coat was only put on CPO guns. Never owned a CPO gun so I have zero experience with them. He might be able to call them and convince them to refinish it in Nitron.
RE: HK
I 'd be happy if HK simply standardized the sight dovetails across their pistols, preferably to an existing standard dovetail so we'd have a choice.
Anyone who has looked to replace HK sights knows exactly what I'm saying.
Hard to see where that would cost HK much to accomplish.
Failing that, HK is missing an opportunity to market proprietary aftermarket sights.
Most decissions are made by executives in swivel chairs looking at the bottom line, going off of input from their design engineers.
There are not many "shooters" involved in this process, at most large companies.
What doesn't Crimson Trace do a high texture grip?
Why didn't Glock do an RTF 35?
Why did S&W create most of their rifles with 1:9 twist barrels and AR carriers?
Why was the P250 ever released?
Why didn't HK listen to LAV on the fullsize HK45 design feedback?
Answer: Bean counters in leadership positions.
RE: HK
I 'd be happy if HK simply standardized the sight dovetails across their pistols, preferably to an existing standard dovetail so we'd have a choice.
Anyone who has looked to replace HK sights knows exactly what I'm saying.
Hard to see where that would cost HK much to accomplish.
Failing that, HK is missing an opportunity to market proprietary aftermarket sights.
Looks like they did. All new pistols (P30/P30L/HK45/HK45C) use same dovetails. And older ones (P2000/P2000SK) have at least same front dovetails as new ones.
BTW Are Heinie sights for P30 little "tighter" than stock ones?
Skunk Pilot
07-13-11, 00:17
I'm talking out of my ass that has a 200 level understanding of economics and business, but I believe that *most* products are designed with a price point and profit goal in mind first, I.E. the company decides that "we want to make $XXX,XXX/Year off of a $XXX firearm" not, "we want to make the most super awesome weapon evAr." Then looks at the competition at that price and develops its product to compete and meet their goals. If S&W is meeting or exceeding their sales goals in the $600 gun market with shitty triggers (or whatever, I've never used one, just an example) then why spend the hundreds of thousands of dollars developing something different? These guys are all businesses after all.
I think this probably says it the best. Concerning the M&P triggers though (brand new are NOT good IMHO); If Apex can make such a great trigger, it shouldn't cost that much to do it right in the first place. Of course you have to take into account the f'in lawyers. But they should of made it like the DCAEK system and I'm sure Apex didn't spend too much money on it. But then again when it was brand new, it is much, much easier to say that then have them spend the time and money to do it right.
Even with the Apex FSS & Trigger which is really Awesome, a game changer really. I'm sure they didn't spend more than 50k doing it, well who knows really. But then I'm sure Randy doesn't fully take into account all his time since he's trying new things and trying to expand the business, which of course is easier when your smaller and your the owner.
Talking about the FSS & Trigger, post #12 from MP-Pistol (http://mp-pistol.com/boards/index.php?/topic/30671-apex-forward-set-sear/page__gopid__304451#entry304451) and then mine on there:
I have it. It is quite awesome. Trigger is probably better than that on my $2500 limited gun. There's slightly more travel in it than in my 1911, but it is lighter and smoother I think.
My comment:
WOW, now that says something. I'd assume on your 2.5k gun you have had the trigger tweaked the best you could to your liking. That speaks volumes. I was surprised how much better I liked the FSS & Trigger compared to my friends $900 SA 1911. I know he has the capability to change it a little bit with the hole in the trigger, but I can't remember what that does again off the top of my head. Well either way I know it wouldn't compare to a 2.5k limited guns trigger.
What I think a company like S&W needs to do is tap 1-2 engineers and/or gunsmiths and tell them to slowly start getting acquainted with triggers of Glocks, HK's, Sig's, XDM's, M&P's ... and then get the aftermarket triggers for them. See how they operate and how and why they really improved them. Now if they stay with the company for a long time this pays off, if there is a lot of turnaround then it won't really work. I mean your not going to come out with a whole new gun every 1-2 years. These are more side projects, otherwise you'd think if they had tons of engineers and gunsmiths on hand they would already do this. This way when the time comes for a new Revolver, semi-auto they know what the "best" aftermarket things that are out there. Then with their knowledge they can try to get it the best they can, up until the lawyers get involved.
F-Trooper05
07-13-11, 00:45
I cannot think of a single person who wants adjustable sights on a combat handgun.
Pat McNamara does. As do some TigerSwan instructors I believe. In any event, I've never found a handgun that I didn't want to immediately change the sights on. So for me that's a non issue.
I have an American made HK45CT. The barrel and slide are from Germany and the frame made in the US.
According to the HK rep I spoke with, the pistol came into the U.S. with the glow-in-the-dark sights and then HK installed the Meprolight tritium sights at the factory. The pistol was then shipped that way. He did say that tritium sights are now illegal in Europe. I'm not sure that's true, but he did say all of the slides coming in from Germany have the stock sights.
He did say that tritium sights are now illegal in Europe.
Tritium sights are illegal in Germany becouse enormous threat of nuclear radiation they posses. It will waste soil and mutate children. Eco-taliban at it's brightest.
Magic_Salad0892
07-13-11, 17:50
Tritium sights are illegal in Germany becouse enormous threat of nuclear radiation they posses. It will waste soil and mutate children. Eco-taliban at it's brightest.
See my signature for details.
About the PPQ, Don't the Trijcon and Mep replacement NS have fixed rear sights? I thought they were, someone correct me if I'm wrong..
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