View Full Version : Marines + HK M27 IAR = The Good Lord's Work
variablebinary
06-29-11, 00:31
Pics of Marines and the IAR are popping up.
Overall, looks like nice kit. Looking forward to hearing what boots on the ground think
http://militarytimes.com/blogs/battle-rattle/2011/06/27/exclusive-photos-the-m27-infantry-automatic-rifle-in-combat/
http://militarytimes.com/blogs/battle-rattle/files/2011/06/iar-afghanistan-1.jpg
http://militarytimes.com/blogs/battle-rattle/files/2011/06/iar-afghanistan-3.jpg
http://militarytimes.com/blogs/battle-rattle/files/2011/06/iar-afghanistan-2.jpg
Seems like it might be real good. I remember when it was just a rifle people heard about.. a few countries adopted it.. and now it's in the hands of the guys it was made for. - and the SEALS of course. (right?)
Just curious as to why you say it's The Good Lord's work?
How do any of us even know if that rifle is so amazing.
I'll take a SAW or Mk46 any day over an IAR. I've shot similar weapons, they fire, they go bang so does my M4.
But can it lay down suppressive fire at cyclic rate for 30seconds while one of my team flanks? I don't think so. It is limited to its mag size.
Oh and can it spit out 2x200 rnd boxes and then do a quick barrel change to facilitate the other 400 rnds I'm about to dump through it?
Oh, no it can't either.
Hm... well it weighs less. Oh, ok. I see.
I'm not trying to start a flame war but there is a reason we keep 2 belt-fed light machine guns in the squad.
Failure2Stop
06-29-11, 05:53
Just curious as to why you say it's The Good Lord's work?
How do any of us even know if that rifle is so amazing.
*snip*
I'm not trying to start a flame war but there is a reason we keep 2 belt-fed light machine guns in the squad.
Do not turn this into another ridiculous and ignorant bickering thread. If you want to piss on the IAR, go do it in the ongoing IAR thread. I'm tired of correcting misconceptions, misdirections, ignorance, and lies about the platform, it's job, and the other assets that are tied to the squad and platoon. The USMC ain't the Army. If you don't know why the USMC decided to go with the IAR, you are out of the loop, and your negative comments will do nothing but seed doubt in those that are actually using and being trained on how to use the real item in active combat against a determined and foul enemy.
ICANHITHIMMAN
06-29-11, 09:11
Im glad to finaly see some pics of its feilding now we just need to get them thouse 60 round surefire mags to complement it. I cant wait to here some storys from down range of rocking out with it.
Do not turn this into another ridiculous and ignorant bickering thread. If you want to piss on the IAR, go do it in the ongoing IAR thread. I'm tired of correcting misconceptions, misdirections, ignorance, and lies about the platform, it's job, and the other assets that are tied to the squad and platoon. The USMC ain't the Army. If you don't know why the USMC decided to go with the IAR, you are out of the loop, and your negative comments will do nothing but seed doubt in those that are actually using and being trained on how to use the real item in active combat against a determined and foul enemy.
Thank you.
I can see this weapon being a useful addition, but not replacing the m249/mk46 series of weapons. Adding the new M855A1 rounds and surefire 60 round mags it would be effective in an assault role and then transitioning to CQB to gain a foothold.
Kind of off topic here, but how does the Hk stock compare to a SOPMOD? Solid lockup, ease of movement on the receiver extension and durability wise.
From the hk-usa.com webshop, it has a lower MSRP and for me it looks attractive because I might be able to fit a chamber brush in the stock.
Littlelebowski
06-29-11, 09:56
Thanks to FTS for doing a preemptive strike on the DERP DERP factor.....
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-29-11, 10:14
http://militarytimes.com/blogs/battle-rattle/files/2011/06/iar-afghanistan-2.jpg
Someone forgot to tell him his gondola sank.
Is it common to have your radio on that side shoulder?
Have they fielded any of the higher cap mags?
I am guessing he has it up there because he is crossing a river. That and he appears to not have a hand mic so its easier just to tilt his head and talk into it.
I too am very curious to read what the Marines think about it. I was still in when they first were testing them out in 29 Palms, I'm almost a little surprised that they made it to the field so fast! I'm sure the grunts are happy to be rolling a little lighter.
ares armor
06-29-11, 10:59
I too am very curious to read what the Marines think about it. I was still in when they first were testing them out in 29 Palms, I'm almost a little surprised that they made it to the field so fast! I'm sure the grunts are happy to be rolling a little lighter.
My old battalion is one of the ones that have fielded it. Most like it but there are the dissenters. Just like on here it seems there are a lot of people with very strong love or hate opinions on it.
scoutfsu99
06-29-11, 11:40
Have they fielded any of the higher cap mags?
They can't right now due to HK's magwell.
They can't right now due to HK's magwell.
maybe a new HK ubermag?
scoutfsu99
06-29-11, 12:09
Lol, way out of my lane on that guess;)
I find it hard to believe the Krauts didn't take into account PMags considering there are hundred of thousands, if not millions in the system. It smacks of HK arrogance....but that might just be my annoyance with their magazines talking....
The SF 60rd mag seems perfect for the IAR concept. Maybe a little bit of tweaking on their part will get it running, but that's just a wish upon a star right now.
Lol, way out of my lane on that guess;)
I find it hard to believe the Krauts didn't take into account PMags considering there are hundred of thousands, if not millions in the system. It smacks of HK arrogance....but that might just be my annoyance with their magazines talking....
The SF 60rd mag seems perfect for the IAR concept. Maybe a little bit of tweaking on their part will get it running, but that's just a wish upon a star right now.
we are H und K and you suck! You veel use das schwartz magazines en za teufelhuden veapon!
Cannon_fodder11b
06-29-11, 14:56
Do not turn this into another ridiculous and ignorant bickering thread. If you want to piss on the IAR, go do it in the ongoing IAR thread. I'm tired of correcting misconceptions, misdirections, ignorance, and lies about the platform, it's job, and the other assets that are tied to the squad and platoon. The USMC ain't the Army. If you don't know why the USMC decided to go with the IAR, you are out of the loop, and your negative comments will do nothing but seed doubt in those that are actually using and being trained on how to use the real item in active combat against a determined and foul enemy.
The point of the IAR was because the military learned the first person to get shot at is the guy with the LMG. (Just like the reason the new sbiper rifle looks like an M16) The IAR in my mind is nothing more then a modified M16a1 capable of firing from open or closed bolt, with a rail kit to make it look sexy.
Theres nothing ground breaking about it. It just makes the automatic rifleman an ammo mooch.
I find it hard to believe the Krauts didn't take into account PMags considering there are hundred of thousands, if not millions in the system. It smacks of HK arrogance....but that might just be my annoyance with their magazines talking....
I agree with you that it was not a good idea to design an AR-type weapon that cannot use regular PMAGs.
But H&K designed their own plastic 5.56 magazine (very similar to the 417 mags), so that might be the reason they didnīt make the weapon work with PMAGs... They want you to buy their proprietary product of course :p
The Dumb Gun Collector
06-29-11, 15:02
Not to mention the 416 predates pmags and nobody who orders these rifles has asked them to modify it to fit non-GI sized mags.
Cannon_fodder11b
06-29-11, 15:08
I too am very curious to read what the Marines think about it. I was still in when they first were testing them out in 29 Palms, I'm almost a little surprised that they made it to the field so fast! I'm sure the grunts are happy to be rolling a little lighter.
Theres nothing Light about "Light" Infantry for every pound they shave off the weight, they tack 10 more to the overall kit. Basic ammo load is 210 rounds. 1200 for a SAW gunner (Usually split into 100 round "Nut sacks" and stuffed into pouches, or kept in the 200 round drum.
How many mags will that grunt packing the IAR carry? do they cut what, 6lbs off the weight of the SAW, 12lbs by not making the gunner carry a spare barrel. add 3lbs fvor the rail system, 4lbs for all the other lickies and chewies they added to it, and all the pouches and loaded 30 round magazines, not to mention the other ghrunts packing extra mags to keep the IAR firing. 210 rounds doenst last very long. In Iraq I carried 15mags. ammo doesn't last very long, considering you need to supress and cover while a team flanks. 30 rounds out of an IAR lasts what 10 seconds? if the troop is well trained he has his kit setup and the training to do a 1 second mag change. If he's in the prone a 1 sec mag change isnt possible. (Yes its possible to do a 1 second mag change IF you practice and adjust your kit and put all your mags in the same direction. Somewhere on these forums is john a tacoma cop, and soldier in my unit he can attest to me taking troops olutside and having them adjust kits and attempt 1 sec mag changes.)
Lol, way out of my lane on that guess;)
I find it hard to believe the Krauts didn't take into account PMags considering there are hundred of thousands, if not millions in the system. It smacks of HK arrogance....but that might just be my annoyance with their magazines talking....
The SF 60rd mag seems perfect for the IAR concept. Maybe a little bit of tweaking on their part will get it running, but that's just a wish upon a star right now.
The point of the IAR was because the military learned the first person to get shot at is the guy with the LMG. (Just like the reason the new sbiper rifle looks like an M16) The IAR in my mind is nothing more then a modified M16a1 capable of firing from open or closed bolt, with a rail kit to make it look sexy.
Theres nothing ground breaking about it. It just makes the automatic rifleman an ammo mooch.
I agree with you that it was not a good idea to design an AR-type weapon that cannot use regular PMAGs.
But H&K designed their own plastic 5.56 magazine (very similar to the 417 mags), so that might be the reason they didnīt make the weapon work with PMAGs... They want you to buy their proprietary product of course :p
LOL, at least try to get your facts right before bashing the M27 HK 416 for no reason.
First of all the HK 416 was designed before Pmags came to existence. It will take any stagnag magazine which the Pmag isn't. Second the the HK416 does not fire from an open bolt. And last where did you get that information about the make believe plastic propietary mag.
I think it's great that finally the M27 is out on the field you could see the hapinness on the face of the Marine that was carrying it. Hopefully this will expand and every soldier can have his own IAR.
He does look kind of happy.
scoutfsu99
06-29-11, 16:19
I think the IAR is a good thing.
It would've been nice to have the magwell tweaked to accept all magazine like the M16FOW. The PMags are in the .mil supply system (IIRC) and they are in abundance throughout the services. From what I've read, not accepting PMags caught most people by surprise. I think it was over looked due to people not being familiar w/ the 416.
There is a very good thread over on LF about the IAR.
Failure2Stop
06-29-11, 16:33
The point of the IAR was because the military learned the first person to get shot at is the guy with the LMG. (Just like the reason the new sbiper rifle looks like an M16) The IAR in my mind is nothing more then a modified M16a1 capable of firing from open or closed bolt, with a rail kit to make it look sexy.
Theres nothing ground breaking about it. It just makes the automatic rifleman an ammo mooch.
Sorry, but no.
I am not going to rehash three years of posting in this thread.
Please do some research on the weapon and it's development.
"Looking forward to hearing what boots on the ground think" +1
What is the barrel lenght of the HK M27 IAR ? 16.0" ???
It's 16.5"
I like the fact that it's not sporting one of those godforsaken abortion-in-VFG-form GripPods in that photo.
ICANHITHIMMAN
06-29-11, 19:20
God I want to rock one of these makes me want to join the Marines
Cagemonkey
06-29-11, 19:39
I see envy and jealousy in the future. Why would any Marine want an A4 or M4 when they could have a M27.
Magic_Salad0892
06-29-11, 20:04
I see envy and jealousy in the future. Why would any Marine want an A4 or M4 when they could have a M27.
Funny. I'm thinking the total opposite.
...
However, I'd rather have a Mk. 18 than any of them.
variablebinary
06-30-11, 00:14
I see envy and jealousy in the future. Why would any Marine want an A4 or M4 when they could have a M27.
Good question.
The Marines have already said the M27 meets their accuracy requirements, and clearly the durability and reliability requirements were met.
The M27 is well positioned to replace the M4 and A4. It's been speculated many times that the M27 is really a Trojan horse weapon system to get a back door replacement for the M16.
Guess we will see if that is true over the next few years.
Though, what's better than two M27's per squad: eight M27's per squad. Just give one guy the uber mags.
vicious_cb
06-30-11, 01:13
Good question.
The Marines have already said the M27 meets their accuracy requirements, and clearly the durability and reliability requirements were met.
The M27 is well positioned to replace the M4 and A4. It's been speculated many times that the M27 is really a Trojan horse weapon system to get a back door replacement for the M16.
Guess we will see if that is true over the next few years.
Though, what's better than two M27's per squad: eight M27's per squad. Just give one guy the uber mags.
So will they change their motto to "Every Marine a machine gunner"? :D
Funny. I'm thinking the total opposite.
...
However, I'd rather have a Mk. 18 than any of them.
Depends on what you are going to do with it!
I do not think automatic suppressive fire with a mk18 at 300-500 meters is the most impressive aspect of it! :)
Besides, if you are shooting in 30 round bursts every 10 seconds, even 10 magazines is not going to last you longer than a few minutes or so.... I am not a SAW gunner, but I seem to remember them saying something about 5-7 round bursts here... Maybe my memory is bad.....
I seem to also remember one of the mods in the other thread saying that the M27 actually was FASTER shooting at night, because reloading a M249 with no light sometimes isn't very easy...
Good question.
It's been speculated many times that the M27 is really a Trojan horse weapon system to get a back door replacement for the M16.
Initially the IAR was to be an IAR only, however one comment made by everyone who has shot it is this is an extremely accurate weapon. When CMC decided to fully field the weapon he directed CD/I to do an assessment if the IAR should be standardized as the rifle/carbine of the ground combat forces.
Depends on what you are going to do with it!
I do not think automatic suppressive fire with a mk18 at 300-500 meters is the most impressive aspect of it! :)
Besides, if you are shooting in 30 round bursts every 10 seconds, even 10 magazines is not going to last you longer than a few minutes or so.... I am not a SAW gunner, but I seem to remember them saying something about 5-7 round bursts here... Maybe my memory is bad.....
I seem to also remember one of the mods in the other thread saying that the M27 actually was FASTER shooting at night, because reloading a M249 with no light sometimes isn't very easy...
Problem is as often been seen, a squad will put out several thousand rounds and won't hit anyone.
So will they change their motto to "Every Marine a machine gunner"? :D
Nope. M27 is not a machine gun. It is automatic rifle. So "Every Marine a rifleman" is safe :smile:
Magic_Salad0892
06-30-11, 09:43
In 10 years, when these improperly maintained weapons are all beat up, and shitty we'll hear about how the Marines are replacing it.
If they'd done it right the first time, nobody would have wanted to replace the M4.
In 10 years, when these improperly maintained weapons are all beat up, and shitty we'll hear about how the Marines are replacing it.
If they'd done it right the first time, nobody would have wanted to replace the M4.
Yeah right, the only reason the M4 is still around is because of Colt's influence on the senate.
HK needs to fix their stupid ****ing magwell. There was no problem with the old one, why create compatibility issues?
I hate HK.
HK needs to fix their stupid ****ing magwell. There was no problem with the old one, why create compatibility issues?
I hate HK.
There was problem with old one. With STANAG dimension magazine inserted Colt magwell allowed too much dust, sand, etc to enter into upper receiver, even with dust cover closed. HK could not control magazine dimensions, so they solved problem by making tighter and longer magwell, that reduced dust penetration into receiver.
Some time later other company designed magazine, that is not within STANAG dimensions, but is made to fill up and seal Colt magwell and prevent dust penetration. But when HK were designing 416 nobody even dreamed about P-mag.
USMC did not specify that IAR must use non mil spec magazines like P-mag, so there was no point for HK in reducing system reliability by going back to old magwell.
Kaasselslay
06-30-11, 11:12
They can't right now due to HK's magwell.
Lol, way out of my lane on that guess;)
I find it hard to believe the Krauts didn't take into account PMags considering there are hundred of thousands, if not millions in the system. It smacks of HK arrogance....but that might just be my annoyance with their magazines talking....
The SF 60rd mag seems perfect for the IAR concept. Maybe a little bit of tweaking on their part will get it running, but that's just a wish upon a star right now.
we are H und K and you suck! You veel use das schwartz magazines en za teufelhuden veapon!
I agree with you that it was not a good idea to design an AR-type weapon that cannot use regular PMAGs.
But H&K designed their own plastic 5.56 magazine (very similar to the 417 mags), so that might be the reason they didnīt make the weapon work with PMAGs... They want you to buy their proprietary product of course :p
HK needs to fix their stupid ****ing magwell. There was no problem with the old one, why create compatibility issues?
I hate HK.
"Beati pauperes spiritu quoniam ipsorum est regnum caelorum"
Littlelebowski
06-30-11, 11:13
HK needs to fix their stupid ****ing magwell. There was no problem with the old one, why create compatibility issues?
I hate HK.
Ever heard of "EMags?"
"Beati pauperes spiritu quoniam ipsorum est regnum caelorum"
google said that means something about riches being in the kingdom of heaven and not being caught up in materialism?
The M27 is well positioned to replace the M4 and A4. It's been speculated many times that the M27 is really a Trojan horse weapon system to get a back door replacement for the M16.
This is the part that makes me sceptical about the whole IAR. If the new IAR makes a good GP rifle/carbine why couldn't the old rifle/carbine be made into a good IAR?
This is the part that makes me sceptical about the whole IAR. If the new IAR makes a good GP rifle/carbine why couldn't the old rifle/carbine be made into a good IAR?
Barrel life and heat resistance? IAR is not SAW but must stand more FA fire than old rifle/carbine is capable.
Colt was in final stage with upgraded DI AR but HK was just better in tests.
I'm sceptical that the operating system, not cookoff temp, limits the ROF for a closed bolt machine gun.
Magic_Salad0892
06-30-11, 13:06
Yeah right, the only reason the M4 is still around is because of Colt's influence on the senate.
Are you saying the 416 is a better rifle than the M4?
Does anybody find it funny that the .civ MR556-A1 barrel profile is fatter than the HK IAR profile?
We already know that the M4A1 SOCOM profile can take the automatic fire. Other dudes on this board could speak more to that than me. (I for one like Kevin Boland's story about throwing 14 magazines through an M4 full auto after a PKM shit the bed in Iraq, or something to that effect.) So... why the IAR?
I would however, like to see the 416C adopted in small numbers.
Also, stop bitching about the magazine well. This is akin to bitching about why the G36 won't accept SIG 551 magazines. The gun was designed around NATO magazines, use NATO magazines, you didn't hear people bitching about the SCAR not being able to accept PMAGs.
Well.. you did, just not nearly as much.
I'm sceptical that the operating system, not cookoff temp, limits the ROF for a closed bolt machine gun.
I never mentioned operating system. USMC did not ask for specific operating system. They asked (beyond other things) for some accuracy and cookoff resistance for required ROF. In IAR procurement tests HK had better cookoff resistance than Colt (using heat sinks) or FN (bi-metal system that goes from closed bolt to open bolt when chamber gets hot), resistance that went over required ROF.
Is this better heat management in HK effect of operating system, using unobtanium or just some spells casted at midnight in Oberndorf - it's secondary. It worked, this is what counts.
When I mentioned barrel life, I had in mind that regular HK416 barrel went trough 15.000 rounds in 2 days and did not lost accuracy or velocity (and again at 20.000 and 25.000 rounds). This kind of durability makes barrel suitable for increased ROF needed in IAR, when there are no changing barrels. But again IAR is not LMG or MG and never will be.
scoutfsu99
06-30-11, 14:00
Also, stop bitching about the magazine well. This is akin to bitching about why the G36 won't accept SIG 551 magazines. The gun was designed around NATO magazines, use NATO magazines, you didn't hear people bitching about the SCAR not being able to accept PMAGs.
Well.. you did, just not nearly as much.
The SCAR absolutely takes PMags.
Give it some time. Bet me how long it'll be before IARs start showing up at depot maintenance with the front wall of the well chamfered like it oughta be (if nobody nuts up and makes it happen from the factory).
That thing's too damned expensive to buy across the board. If anybody thinks that that's gonna happen within or even immediately following the current administration....well, suffice to say that you have problems that I would need years of schooling and pharmacological training to solve.
Smuckatelli
06-30-11, 14:32
Though, what's better than two M27's per squad: eight M27's per squad. Just give one guy the uber mags.
One per fireteam.
When we had the A1s...we had a designated AR man, only problem was that everyone became an AR man as soon as targets appeared.
We were doing a platoon assault course with pop up targets on Tinian. One of those 'cat sized' rats ran across the course. Everyone tried to shoot the rat, the rat made it to the left lateral limit and escaped. We ran out of ammo and fixed bayonets...there were 12 - 14 targets left standing that weren't hit by fire. The platoon started the course with 6 loaded magazines, the AR bubbas had 12 loaded magazines.
For about a year (84-85), the AR man kept the A1 while everyone else had the A2. We still only had M-193 so it really didn't make a difference. The M-855 didn't start getting to us until the later part of 85 when we were issued M-249s.
Smuckatelli
06-30-11, 14:36
That thing's too damned expensive to buy across the board.
That reminded me of when Gen Mattis stopped by our shop while he had MCCDC. He was pissed because it is institutionally okay spend 8 grand on a plane tire but won't spend that kind of funds on grunt's gear.
Magic_Salad0892
06-30-11, 14:41
The SCAR absolutely takes PMags.
Not without modification to the gun, or magazines.
Paraclete comes
06-30-11, 14:43
Kind of off topic here, but how does the Hk stock compare to a SOPMOD? Solid lockup, ease of movement on the receiver extension and durability wise.
From the hk-usa.com webshop, it has a lower MSRP and for me it looks attractive because I might be able to fit a chamber brush in the stock.
I shot this stock quite a bit on a 416 and 417. I also have three SOPMODs and have to say I think the HK feels a bit better. I dont really like the look of it, but it locks up nice and tight. It also rolls right into my shoulder alot better than the sopmod. It just feels real nice and shoots great.
Im glad the Marines got a real AR back in the field. I was a SAW gunner in the Army and can say that it does not make a good AR but does cover the LMG role pretty well. Manuever under fire and urban combat can be a real pain in the ass with that gun.
In the firefights I have been in, I never saw a SAW used to its full potential and the job could have easily been cover by the IAR. But then again I never went to Afghanistan where the mountain fighting could make the SAW very useful.
Now how long until the Army likes what it sees? But then again they wont be able to say that the USMC got it right so they will spend millions researching the whole thing to only come to the same conclusion...... and then buy something different.:suicide2:
Is this better heat management in HK effect of operating system, using unobtanium or...
It is most likely the amount of steel in the barrel.
I hope they got the best weapon available for the mission, but I'm still interested to see how it does after the new car smell wears off. For the cost I have to ask what an M16/M4 with an auto FCG and 16" heavy barrel can do.
scoutfsu99
06-30-11, 15:25
Not without modification to the gun, or magazines.
Are you talking about the SCAR 17 or 16? The 16 100% takes PMags. If you're talking about the 17, sorry - I misunderstood.
That reminded me of when Gen Mattis stopped by our shop while he had MCCDC. He was pissed because it is institutionally okay spend 8 grand on a plane tire but won't spend that kind of funds on grunt's gear.
As of the winter of 10 the average Marine riflemen deploys with 27,000 dollars in gear.
Give it some time. Bet me how long it'll be before IARs start showing up at depot maintenance with the front wall of the well chamfered like it oughta be (if nobody nuts up and makes it happen from the factory).
This. Spot on, JSantoro.
Just to clarify some of the information in this thread:
1. The IAR program was initiated in 2005, long before the PMAG or SureFire quad stack mags existed. It is my understanding that the original requirement asked for high capacity magazines (50-100+ rounds), but only required compatibility with the standard issue USGI aluminum magazine. The HK 416 meets the threshold requirement.
2. As far as we can tell, the decision by HK to deviate from the milspec M4/M16 magazine well dimensions was driven by the blank firing SA80 magazine that HK designed for the British MOD when upgrading their L85 rifles and magazines. In order to make the HK blank firing magazine compatible with the 416, they had to mimic the SA80's magazine well geometry. Specific details can be found on page 3 of this thread, in a post by user "Magpul" toward the bottom of the page: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=1195246&page=3
3. When the PMAG was released in 2007, the HK 416 was virtually nonexistent within the U.S. military, so compatibility was of little concern as long as it functioned in all M4/M16 variants. When you consider the millions of M4/M16/AR15 weapon systems in inventory with U.S. military, as well as federal, state, and local law enforcement, it makes sense why optimized compatibility with so-called "milspec" magazine wells was the top priority in PMAG development.
4. When demand arose for a PMAG variant that would be compatible with foreign weapons such as the HK 416, SA80/L85, ARX-160, and others, Magpul developed the EMAG, or "Export Magazine". For the reason stated in #2 above, domestic demand has been very limited, but Magpul was awarded a contract for just over 1 million EMAGs by the British Ministry of Defence in 2010. The total contract has been fulfilled, and EMAGs are being issued as we speak to all deploying British forces for use in the L85A2 bullpup rifle.
5. The PMAG has been assigned two National Stock Numbers, NSN 1005-01-576-5159 (MAG211-BLK) & 1005-01-576-5164 (MAG210-BLK), and is being purchased in substantial quantities by all U.S. military branches, including the USMC, who was the earliest adopter.
6. The EMAG has been assigned two NSNs, both for P/N MAG241-BLK: 1005-01-591-6169 & 1005-99-667-5926, but the authorized users on these NSNs are foreign. At this time, there is no valid NSN to allow American military units to purchase the EMAG.
Unfortunately, as JSantoro mentions, it may be only a matter of time until Marines start taking files to their M27s to make them compatible with the magazines they trust. Trying to prohibit Marines from using PMAGs in theater, many of which have been purchased with personal money, is going to be nearly impossible. While one solution is to simply start selling EMAGs to Marines instead of PMAGs, this idea may still be problematic because: 1) there are already hundreds of thousands of PMAGs in service with the USMC and other branches of the military which cannot easily be rounded up and thrown out; 2) even if a ban is implemented, other branches are continuing to purchase PMAGs in large quantities, which may result in "cross contamination"; and 3) there are two NSNs on the EMAG, but the only authorized users are foreign, so there is no effective method for procurement at this time.
As you can see, no one organization/entity is directly to blame for this issue, and certainly no party involved is acting with malicious intentions. Magpul has a strong relationship with both MARCORSYSCOM and HK-D in the U.S., and we are confident that a solution will be reached quickly. Our company was founded by a Marine, and we have members from every branch of the military on staff - one of the primary reasons we got into this industry was to help ensure our men and women in uniform receive the equipment they need to accomplish their mission and come home safely. Rest assured that Magpul is doing everything in our power to help mitigate this issue and do what is best for the Marines who will soon be carrying the M27 IAR in combat.
Smuckatelli
06-30-11, 18:47
As of the winter of 10 the average Marine riflemen deploys with 27,000 dollars in gear.
How many tires does a plane deploy with?
Gen Mattis was using an example of one plane tire, he didn't include the cost of everything else that goes into the plane to make it operational.
8 grand for an individual tire.....27 grand to completely equip an Infantryman. Take a guess on who is getting the short end of the funding stick.
Magic_Salad0892
06-30-11, 20:02
Are you talking about the SCAR 17 or 16? The 16 100% takes PMags. If you're talking about the 17, sorry - I misunderstood.
I know for a fact the SCAR-17 can't take PMAGs, but I was referring to the SCAR-16, I've heard of TONS of them that couldn't except 5.56N PMAGS.
Go on YouTube and search ''SCAR PMAG Modification'' and see what comes up.
You're saying this isn't true anymore?
variablebinary
06-30-11, 20:09
I know for a fact the SCAR-17 can't take PMAGs, but I was referring to the SCAR-16, I've heard of TONS of them that couldn't except 5.56N PMAGS.
Go on YouTube and search ''SCAR PMAG Modification'' and see what comes up.
You're saying this isn't true anymore?
My SCAR took PMAG's fine.
Magic_Salad0892
06-30-11, 20:11
My SCAR took PMAG's fine.
Maybe I'm stupid?.. I was hearing about tons of problems.
variablebinary
06-30-11, 20:14
Maybe I'm stupid?.. I was hearing about tons of problems.
The issue was not the SCAR taking PMAG's
The issue was PMAG's dropping free.
The older fatter PMAG's didn't drop free, but the new slimmer one's were fine for me.
The SCAR cycled reliably with both.
27 grand to completely equip an Infantryman.
...who, unlike any airplane/aircraft in the inventory, takes and holds ground, for all the money spent on them.
They're a force multiplier, but the force they multiply is the GCE. Foreverandeveramen.
Speaking back to the magwell, what I love the very most is that the very first time I heard it was from the mouth of an 03xx Corporal @ TBS, one of 6 cats helping out with a UE. Paraphrased:
-takes Pmags?
--no
-shit me?
--shit you not, you my favorite turd
-will once i file the shit outta THIS part !lulz!
--:blink: :nono:
scoutfsu99
06-30-11, 20:25
I know for a fact the SCAR-17 can't take PMAGs, but I was referring to the SCAR-16, I've heard of TONS of them that couldn't except 5.56N PMAGS.
Go on YouTube and search ''SCAR PMAG Modification'' and see what comes up.
You're saying this isn't true anymore?
It wasn't that they couldn't take a PMag. They always could. The back of the PMag pushed up on something (I can't remember off the top of my head) and the guy who noticed it thought that it might be able to eventually cause a problem. I also remember it being more of a non issue......people had been using PMags for a long time with no problems.
I've never had a problem w/ my rifle. As Variable said, some early one's wouldn't drop free....but they do that in my LMT lower too. A 16 will definitely work just fine with PMags.
ForTehNguyen
06-30-11, 20:44
Some Marine battalions allegedly ban the PMAG:
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2011/06/24/some-marine-battalions-allegedly-ban-the-pmag/
variablebinary
06-30-11, 20:58
The world does not revolve around the PMAG. The SCAR and HK416 were designed to work with properly spec'ed STANAG magazines. The problem is the PMAG, not the SCAR and 416
If military personnel are destroying their weapon to accommodate personally purchased, non-issue magazines, that is a serious lack of judgement, training and oversight.
NCO's need to rip out the colon and use it to strangle anyone caught going down this road.
Magic_Salad0892
06-30-11, 21:04
The world does not revolve around the PMAG. The SCAR and HK416 were designed to work with properly spec'ed STANAG magazines. The problem is the PMAG, not the SCAR and 416
If military personnel are destroying their weapon to accommodate personally purchased, non-issue magazines, that is a serious lack of judgement, training and oversight.
NCO's need to rip out the colon and use it to strangle anyone caught going down this road.
Agreed.
scoutfsu99
06-30-11, 21:05
Very true....however magazines (in the Army - the Marines can't be that much different) generally go along these lines.....nasty, thrashed GI mags you draw from Supply or the Arms room and turn in when you leave the unit, actual issued PMags, or personally bought PMags. There are hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of these magazines in the system. They're there, and they became so awesomely popular, b/c they were leaps and bounds better than the aluminum issued mags. IMO, PMag is synonymous with functioning magazine.
NickB's post is excellent.
variablebinary
06-30-11, 21:30
They're there, and they became so awesomely popular, b/c they were leaps and bounds better than the aluminum issued mags. IMO, PMag is synonymous with functioning magazine.
Irrelevant.
If I caught anyone destroying their weapon for any reason, I'd go out of my way to ensure they paid for that weapon out of pocket, saw a reduction in rank and got the worst detail in the military for a long time.
Exercising some due diligence and at very least getting the EMAG is what should be done if one simply must have Magpul magazines.
scoutfsu99
06-30-11, 21:40
How is a working magazine irrelevant? PMags are so popular because they ****ing work.....unlike the typical issued aluminum magazine.
I'm also not condoning filing down the magwell of an issued weapon. I didn't say that or even hint at it. I don't even want to guess at the fallout of some young stud doing that.
I think we're also drifting though. This thread isn't about the SCAR or PMags. Maybe another thread? Lol, if there's not already one.
IMO, the IAR is a good concept and I'm looking forward to hearing first hand accounts.
ETA: roger on the Emags.....problem is all the PMags already in service, issued and personally purchased.
If YOU looked and did some research the IAR fired from the closed bolt on single shot, and when switched to auto it would fire from the open bolt position http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YzGzeLh3mc
Hey, you poor benighted no-SA-having bucket of yuck...
I WORKED ON THAT PROGRAM. You don't tell me. I tell you.
LWRC was not selected. HK was selected. The HK M27 IAR is a closed bolt weapon.
Are you picking up what's getting put down, yet?
Speaking back to the magwell, what I love the very most is that the very first time I heard it was from the mouth of an 03xx Corporal @ TBS, one of 6 cats helping out with a UE. Paraphrased:
-takes Pmags?
--no
-shit me?
--shit you not, you my favorite turd
-will once i file the shit outta THIS part !lulz!
--:blink: :nono:
That had me rolling, man. :lol:
Thomas M-4
06-30-11, 21:57
Dang I swore I posted in this thread. I get up to fix a drink and its gone like a fart in the wind:lol:
scoutfsu99
06-30-11, 22:00
I WORKED ON THAT PROGRAM. You don't tell me. I tell you.
Quick question......was the topic of other mags such as the PMag ever brought up or was it a slight oversight due to most people not being very familiar w/ HK products? I know other knowledgeable guys on LF were caught by surprise.
variablebinary
06-30-11, 22:07
Quick question......was the topic of other mags such as the PMag ever brought up or was it a slight oversight due to most people not being very familiar w/ HK products? I know other knowledgeable guys on LF were caught by surprise.
They are surprised because they are stupid.
The HK416 pre-dates the PMAG
The 416 works with STANAG magazines. STANAG stands for Standardization Agreement. That aint the PMAG
scoutfsu99
06-30-11, 22:10
wow.......ok. Those guys are far from stupid.....you should know that from your time over there. Feel free to go tell them that.
Is the IAR THE 416 or a version of the 416?
I'm not being a dick or argumentative. I'm asking the man who worked on the program.
variablebinary
06-30-11, 22:16
Is the IAR THE 416 or a version of the 416?
Seeing is believing
http://www.hk-usa.com/-images/products/hk416/lg_hk416_1.jpg
http://world.guns.ru/userfiles/images/assault/as109/m27_iar.jpg
How is a working magazine irrelevant? PMags are so popular because they ****ing work.....unlike the typical issued aluminum magazine.
I'm also not condoning filing down the magwell of an issued weapon. I didn't say that or even hint at it. I don't even want to guess at the fallout of some young stud doing that.
I think we're also drifting though. This thread isn't about the SCAR or PMags. Maybe another thread? Lol, if there's not already one.
IMO, the IAR is a good concept and I'm looking forward to hearing first hand accounts.
ETA: roger on the Emags.....problem is all the PMags already in service, issued and personally purchased.
I really doubt this is that big of a deal. Sell the pmags and either get newer emags or whatever you want. I realize buying 20+ magazines isn't cheap, but if I was infantry I would have new and working mags. I knew guys that could spend 300$ in one night drinking oveseas... It was not hard to drop 250$ in a night with dinner/drinks.... I doubt 300$ of magazines is really that big of a deal.
Honestly, even all of my issued mags were great. Do the grunts have really really crappy mags or something? All of mine were old and prebans with clear wear, but they worked great.
Kaasselslay
07-01-11, 00:33
google said that means something about riches being in the kingdom of heaven and not being caught up in materialism?
Google can't replace neither education nor can it replace intelligence. but both seem to be a hindrance on this site anyhow!
"Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven"
variablebinary
07-01-11, 00:42
Bro, I wouldn't be calling out a SME. The mods will ban you and they do not care how you feel.
I just disagreed with an SME and they gave me a warning...He didn't even take offense to what I said.... Calling out a SME like that is pretty much equal to saying that you want to be banned.
It's just really easy to stray out of your lane here because there are actual people here that have the inside story and have the experience to speak with authority. This is why the leash tends to be short.
Someone that plays Modern Warfare is not the same as someone that has actually played in a role in selecting and using kit that is life or death to guys on the ground.
You can see how easy it is to muddy the waters and everyone walks away dumber as a result.
You post here long enough, and you learn who to trust.
When someone goes off the reservation and gets a vacation from here, please don't repost and quote what they wrote, it makes thread clean up more difficult.
Thanks.
How many tires does a plane deploy with?
Gen Mattis was using an example of one plane tire, he didn't include the cost of everything else that goes into the plane to make it operational.
8 grand for an individual tire.....27 grand to completely equip an Infantryman. Take a guess on who is getting the short end of the funding stick.
I think the 8 grand was kind of a made up number by the good general to make a point. Lets face it the GCE is always going to get short changed when it comes to procurement. However there is a huge difference today compared to when I was enlisted or even a Lt. There is several times the money spent on the ground combat Marine than was ever spent before and all it takes is the fleet issuing an UUNS and they end up getting the item, whether it is a POR or not.
The issue was PMAG's dropping free.
The older fatter PMAG's didn't drop free, but the new slimmer one's were fine for me.
The SCAR cycled reliably with both.
My SCAR cycles reliably with both but the modification isn't for function but to not damage the rifle. The notch on the back of the PMag (right behind the feed lips) is more of a, 'U' shape instead of the square shape like on a USGI. Consequently, it pushes up on the bolt release, causing the bolt/BCG to drag on it. So, while it ran, it also damaged the rifle as it did so; not something you want to go out of your way to do with a rifle with proprietary parts. Some guns would short-stroke occasionally because of this and many users assumed it was a gas issue.
Regardless, takes like, 30 seconds with a dremel to mod a PMag (if you want to make it look pretty).
How is a working magazine irrelevant? PMags are so popular because they ****ing work.....unlike the typical issued aluminum magazine.
I must have far too many broken USGI's because they generally tend to work very well. Much of the reason some shitty mags are issued is because problematic magazines are not typically destroyed and stay in the system.
viperashes
07-01-11, 07:52
I really doubt this is that big of a deal. Sell the pmags and either get newer emags or whatever you want. I realize buying 20+ magazines isn't cheap, but if I was infantry I would have new and working mags. I knew guys that could spend 300$ in one night drinking oveseas... It was not hard to drop 250$ in a night with dinner/drinks.... I doubt 300$ of magazines is really that big of a deal.
Honestly, even all of my issued mags were great. Do the grunts have really really crappy mags or something? All of mine were old and prebans with clear wear, but they worked great.
There are still a lot of the old black follower magazines floating around. I really wish there would be some kind of mass turn-in to trade up to the newest tan anti-tilt follower Brownells mags. The green follower mags are somewhere in the middle and aren't AS notorious for failing in firefights, but none the less, I wouldn't trust my life with them if I didn't have to. And I don't. I refuse to give up my Pmags simply because I've been using them so long.
It's not so much about actually dropping the cash on new Emags, it's the principle of the matter, and actually having to go out and get new shit because the Corps adopted a weapon with compatibility issues. Everyone I've talked to that's issued an IAR right now loves it. I haven't hear much of anything negative about it, other than the reduced ammo capacity, and the Pmag/Emag arguement. Other than that, the IAR is pretty effin' awesome.
I think the 8 grand was kind of a made up number by the good general to make a point. Lets face it the GCE is always going to get short changed when it comes to procurement. However there is a huge difference today compared to when I was enlisted or even a Lt. There is several times the money spent on the ground combat Marine than was ever spent before and all it takes is the fleet issuing an UUNS and they end up getting the item, whether it is a POR or not.
There's a lot of procurement issues across the DoD. We're over-staffed and under-funded. Take the Afghan draw down for example. Right now, RC/SW (Regional Command/ Southwest, for those that don't know) is a MEF size element. That's HUGE. We shouldn't be any larger than a Brigade, and that's what they're trying to cut down to. When you have a force this size, funding has to cut corners. There won't be enough gear to effectively equip the war fighters on the ground, and there won't be enough gear in the rear to replace the stuff that breaks.
Are you saying the 416 is a better rifle than the M4?
Does anybody find it funny that the .civ MR556-A1 barrel profile is fatter than the HK IAR profile?
We already know that the M4A1 SOCOM profile can take the automatic fire. Other dudes on this board could speak more to that than me. (I for one like Kevin Boland's story about throwing 14 magazines through an M4 full auto after a PKM shit the bed in Iraq, or something to that effect.) So... why the IAR?
I would however, like to see the 416C adopted in small numbers.
Also, stop bitching about the magazine well. This is akin to bitching about why the G36 won't accept SIG 551 magazines. The gun was designed around NATO magazines, use NATO magazines, you didn't hear people bitching about the SCAR not being able to accept PMAGs.
Well.. you did, just not nearly as much.
Yes, I'm saying that.
If the updated DI Colt entry couldn't beat the HK what makes you thing think a regular M4 could.
Is the IAR THE 416 or a version of the 416?
I did not work at program, but as well know HKoolAid drinker and gunwriter I followed it.
IAR is HK416D165RS (as used by Norway or Polish 1.PSK) with following changes:
- 11" handguard
- can not accept slide on AG416 grenade launcher (no hole for mounting cross-pin on new handguard)
- new rail mounted sights
- bayonet lug separate from gas block and mounted on barrel in front of handguard
- grip-pod style vfg/bipod
I will gladly hear if I miss something or got something wrong from people who actually worked at program.
Smuckatelli
07-01-11, 09:12
I think the 8 grand was kind of a made up number by the good general to make a point.
No doubt...but he's one of those types that you don't want to pull a punk card on.
Same goes with Papa Gray, if he knows that you ever served in the Corps.....you're open for a love tap.
OCO funding is drying up rapidly, its good that we have the intial procurement completed on the M27. If JSantoro was just beginning his RFP on the system...the Marines would be screwed because of the panic going on about new start programs.
viperashes
07-01-11, 10:10
I did not work at program, but as well know HKoolAid drinker and gunwriter I followed it.
IAR is HK416D165RS (as used by Norway or Polish 1.PSK) with following changes:
- 11" handguard
- can not accept slide on AG416 grenade launcher (no hole for mounting cross-pin on new handguard)
- new rail mounted sights
- bayonet lug separate from gas block and mounted on barrel in front of handguard
- grip-pod style vfg/bipod
I will gladly hear if I miss something or got something wrong from people who actually worked at program.
These are pretty much standard issue across the Corps at this point though. I have one on my A4. The guy I ran into yesterday had switched out his grip-pod for a simple KAC vfg and a harris.
If JSantoro was just beginning his RFP on the system...the Marines would be screwed.
Altered slightly for validity. I'd have to get promoted well past my current, modest level of incompetence to be in a position to jack up a whole new program. I'll stick to training. :p
It's a cogent point, though. We're in a new Truman/Carter Era, and no conflict lasts forever. The pendulum is in that little pause it has right before it starts back the other direction. I had a friend give me a little talk on some of the big-blue-arrow money stuff, and it left me dizzy.
This is version 1 of the Saw-Lite, a 75 rd single drum, We just added the BHO and will have some new vids soon. We will have this in the same envelope but 100 rds in the future. If you study designs and how they differ, this is 2 row the Ultimax drum. It is an enhanced version with rotating plates that move with the cartridges to reduce friction more but in spirit it is the ultimax design, which sullivan copied from Blacker.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=965GFPnlNQM
Quad designs going through a funnel work, at first, remember the BETA is this same converging traffic design. You can drop granules of sand into the convergence point and totally change the game.
The 416 works with STANAG magazines. STANAG stands for Standardization Agreement. That aint the PMAG
Little problem being there is no such thing.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/12/11/stanag-4179-does-not-exist/
The proposed STANAG was based on the M16 and M16 mag. So if you take that, add in the number of M16/M4/C7 rifles (not even looking at the AR-15 numbers) compared to the number of HK 416 rifles the "standard" is quite clear. I'm not saying HK is wrong, but someone in the procurement process should have seen the possible issue and asked for a standard M16 magwell.
Hell, with all the M16A1's that are given away to LE maybe we should have just bought collapsible stocks and HK uppers to make them. But there is probably a bigger gold star given for procuring a new weapons "system" than saving money.
Magic_Salad0892
07-01-11, 12:00
This is version 1 of the Saw-Lite, a 75 rd single drum, We just added the BHO and will have some new vids soon. We will have this in the same envelope but 100 rds in the future. If you study designs and how they differ, this is 2 row the Ultimax drum. It is an enhanced version with rotating plates that move with the cartridges to reduce friction more but in spirit it is the ultimax design, which sullivan copied from Blacker.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=965GFPnlNQM
Quad designs going through a funnel work, at first, remember the BETA is this same converging traffic design. You can drop granules of sand into the convergence point and totally change the game.
I actually like it. :)
Magic_Salad0892
07-01-11, 12:02
Yes, I'm saying that.
If the updated DI Colt entry couldn't beat the HK what makes you thing think a regular M4 could.
I respectfully disagree with your assessment, but I must recontinue this argument when I learn some more stuff about what the ''Enhanced'' M4, and more details on the 416.
JSantoro. That was hilarious.
Magic_Salad0892
07-01-11, 12:05
Little problem being there is no such thing.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/12/11/stanag-4179-does-not-exist/
Wondered when somebody would bring that up.
Smuckatelli
07-01-11, 12:10
Altered slightly for validity. I'd have to get promoted well past my current, modest level of incompetence to be in a position to jack up a whole new program. I'll stick to training. :p
You see, you screwed up, now the cat is out of the bag.
Meet me outside the SYSCOM CP with a couple buckets of white paint. We'll paint all the rocks between SYSCOM & MCCDC, I'll take the left side and you take the right side of the road.
It's a cogent point, though. We're in a new Truman/Carter Era, and no conflict lasts forever. The pendulum is in that little pause it has right before it starts back the other direction. I had a friend give me a little talk on some of the big-blue-arrow money stuff, and it left me dizzy.
Col S gave out the Trasys budget back in March, it has been cut drastically. Funding for the 'holodeck' is elevating but many other programs are withering on the vine.
I hope that you guys had a chance to create a tight training package on the M27.
I don't think you could ever upgrade all the lowers with piston uppers because the TDP allowed too much slop for the way the DI uppers work. The piston guns try to stabilize by the rear of the carrier which will hang up in a stock tube if everything isn't right.
*The magazine fit thing, if you have access to it, some things from Rock Island-the c4 files, there are files for the MFG of a magazine that define gages that make the magazine good, being good means it will work with the TDP. There is one for the body dims, the mag catch...etc. The one gage is a square that goes over the body as a go no go, it has to go down a certain length. So there is proper gaging on the magazine itself to be compatible with the wide range of lowers, not "it fits in a Colt".
HK stayed within this envelope, but their designers didn't understand the 10 degree angle, it is because the cartridges have 1 deg of taper and there are 10 in a stack to get chamber ready and level. No engineer could ever defend that lower angle. I have heard multiple reasons.
James Sullivan was on the AR design, a protruding stack isn't good for high capacity, so you must minimize it as much as possible. The ultimax for example was like the AK and the rounds basically get plucked from the outer periphery. So he designed the mags for surefire to be optimized for the AR.
Pmags were an example of trying to push something on the verge of the TDP rules. They were going with more curvature and you know they wish they had just gone back and made it straight longer, and not fatter in that area, like the later Emag.
The HK guys wish they could go back and change things, I have hear some of them say it. It is a valuable lesson to us all. Stay within the confines of the TDP, and if they just published that thing to industry only without having to bid a contract they would have better products that are more accepting by them.
There are still a lot of the old black Right now, RC/SW (Regional Command/ Southwest, for those that don't know) is a MEF size element. That's HUGE. We shouldn't be any larger than a Brigade, and that's what they're trying to cut down to.
Working in PP&O I have got to kind of dispute that. With the force cap that is effect MEB-A and the RC-SW staff combined never get about half the size of a MEF, and that is during RIP/TOA with more units on deck than are operational.
Smuckatelli
07-01-11, 15:41
Working in PP&O
I feel for you brother.
theblackknight
07-01-11, 17:43
It's 16.5"
I like the fact that it's not sporting one of those godforsaken abortion-in-VFG-form GripPods in that photo.
THANK YOU.
BTW, I wish dudes could use this on the KD range. Floating barrel makes everyone else butthurt and they complain.
variablebinary
07-01-11, 21:40
I'm not saying HK is wrong, but someone in the procurement process should have seen the possible issue and asked for a standard M16 magwell.
Why? The 416/IAR works as intended with issue magazines for an issue weapon.
This is a Magpul PMAG issue, which they remedied with the EMAG.
scoutfsu99
07-01-11, 22:07
PMags are also issued magazines now.
The EMag is not yet in the .mil supply system. The problem arises when unit issue PMags but they are incompatible with the IAR. It would have been nice/cost efficient if someone had caught it beforehand.
variablebinary
07-01-11, 22:23
PMags are also issued magazines now.
The EMag is not yet in the .mil supply system. The problem arises when unit issue PMags but they are incompatible with the IAR. It would have been nice/cost efficient if someone had caught it beforehand.
Are they issued to you? What unit are you in?
scoutfsu99
07-01-11, 22:24
My last unit issued the entire troop PMags.
A Troop 1-14 Cav, 3-2 SBCT.
variablebinary
07-01-11, 22:27
My last unit issued the entire troop PMags.
A Troop 1-14 Cav, 3-2 SBCT.
What generation of PMAG?
scoutfsu99
07-01-11, 22:35
I want to say Rev. M but I can't remember exactly. We received them about a month or two into our last tour.
We're not the only ones though. You even have the manufacturer saying they're issued items. I'm sure other people on this site have gotten them too.
ETA: I'm not arguing that these are THE issued mag. They're not, IMO. But units are issuing them out.
If you want to get my bonafides, roster number, or whatever it is you're asking when you want to know my unit - feel free to PM me.
Why? The 416/IAR works as intended with issue magazines for an issue weapon.
Even if the Marines are successful in stopping the use of the Pmag there are still times it could be an issue, like the month my Army Company spent OPCON to a Marine Battalion.
The pics Magpul referenced show the reason for the different HK magwell. The blank mags that don't allow live ammo are a good enough idea but if HK wants to sell many to the US military they will need to make one to work in an M16... and have a seperate one for the IAR...
It's not the end of the world but something a little more thought (and a few more chips in the machining process) could have made a complete non issue.
Everything the Germans build is perfect, just ask them, they'll tell you.
Magic_Salad0892
07-02-11, 00:43
Everything the Germans build is perfect, just ask them, they'll tell you.
New sig line. :D
viperashes
07-02-11, 00:45
Working in PP&O I have got to kind of dispute that. With the force cap that is effect MEB-A and the RC-SW staff combined never get about half the size of a MEF, and that is during RIP/TOA with more units on deck than are operational.
I'm not talking just Marines here though, I'm talking about total force structure. I'm assuming that since you work at PP&O you work in the MEF compound. I'm not exactly sure where you guys are at. What I'm talking about is mainly the fact that we have civilian contractors who essentially do absolutely nothing, but are on contract so they can't be sent home. Don't get me wrong, my firm belief is that we should keep as many war fighters out here as possible and thin out the staff sections. Prime example, me. By trade I'm a K9 handler. I'm stuck working in staff as a middle man. I report the same information that other people collect, only to send it to different people. Why not consolidate the position. I mean, it's probably pretty apparent that I spend a large majority of my day on the Nipr-net.
Other than my little tirade, downsizing the operational footprint we have out here would/will open up funding for other areas that are starving. Stop paying so many Marines and civilians hostile fire pay that are taking up space in a secure compound, and reroute the funding to things that can benefit. The Corps was never meant to be an occupational force, and that's what we're doing right now, fighting an occupational war. We don't have that expeditionary "kick the door in and kick their ass" momentum at this point with as many moving parts as there are out here.
Everything the Germans build is perfect, just ask them, they'll tell you.
But they aren't very good at telling jokes...
I thought the mag release on my HK45C was pretty funny. :lol:
GermanSynergy
07-02-11, 01:10
Everything the Germans build is perfect, just ask them, they'll tell you.
If that's true, what the hell happened to the USP series? Ergonomic as a brick...:D
And last where did you get that information about the make believe plastic propietary mag.
I didn`t "get that information" anywhere, I had it in my own hands and used it in training with the 416.
variablebinary
07-04-11, 13:47
I didn`t "get that information" anywhere, I had it in my own hands and used it in training with the 416.
And you'd be right
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h90/REMOV/Inne/_HK416_NewMag_01.jpg
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h90/REMOV/Inne/_HK416_NewMag_04.jpg
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h90/REMOV/Inne/_HK416_NewMag_02.jpg
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h90/REMOV/Inne/_HK416_NewMag_03.jpg
Notice the G35 STANAG adapter
http://altair.com.pl/files/news/2010/06/i-i10-06-058hk03.jpg
Thank you variablebinary!
I couldnīt find a picture online and I havenīt had a chance to take any myself. They are not standard issue (yet), we only had a couple of samples.
Hammertime
07-05-11, 14:38
.....
But can it lay down suppressive fire at cyclic rate for 30seconds while one of my team flanks? I don't think so. It is limited to its mag size.
Oh and can it spit out 2x200 rnd boxes and then do a quick barrel change to facilitate the other 400 rnds I'm about to dump through it?
This guy hit the nail on the head.
The IAR would be a compliment to a line unit, not a replacement for the SAW/MK 46 weapon. I would envision that a squad or team having SAWs would make contact, the SAWs get on line where the IARs would flank and hit the OBJ then hold the OBJ until the SAWS could regroup. Of course that all depends on where the the IARs and SAWs are in the squad and at what point and from what directions the fire is coming from. Would you have an IAR team or a SAW team? or a intermixed SAW IAR team?
Magic_Salad0892
07-05-11, 16:42
The IAR would be a compliment to a line unit, not a replacement for the SAW/MK 46 weapon. I would envision that a squad or team having SAWs would make contact, the SAWs get on line where the IARs would flank and hit the OBJ then hold the OBJ until the SAWS could regroup. Of course that all depends on where the the IARs and SAWs are in the squad and at what point and from what directions the fire is coming from. Would you have an IAR team or a SAW team? or a intermixed SAW IAR team?
And why can't an M4 do that?...
Also, call me stupid, but I actually like the plastic 416 magazine.
kaltesherz
07-05-11, 18:16
Are they issued to you? What unit are you in?
My old unit was issued 7 Rev M Black Windowed Pmags before they went over this last time, unit is in my sig line
To me this sounds like a liability issue. What good is a weapon if you can't load it or reload it using on hand materials? Sadly this looks like a cluster F waiting to go down.
Crap........ I am out of ammo. Can I get another mag? Crap its a Pmag and all everyone has on hand is a Pmag. Hold the firefight.... I need to reload my mags.
Failure2Stop
07-05-11, 19:58
The stupid is too much.
Believe me, all the clever little sniping comments have been thought of well before and planned around. I can't believe that so many would think that the United States ****ing Marine Corps doesn't know what it wants, why, or how to feed it.
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