View Full Version : Your experience with recent "Bad QC"
A slight off-shoot thread from the "Sig Face-Palm" thread. Since QC seems to be down everywhere, could we maybe have a thread detailing your personal dealings with bad QC on NIB handguns since November 2008, and their current status?
Two for me:
Gen3 Glock 19. NVD prefix. Had a out of spec extractor from the factory. Caused 1 FTE, and failed to extract a empty case out of the chamber. Fixed with a new extractor.
Beretta PX4 SC. Left-side decocker/safety would not decock the hammer unless pressure was put on the top of the slide. Currently sitting in Accokeek being evaluated.
Worst: Placed an order for 28 Sig P229 pistols in 2009. When I inspected them, one had an out of spec rear dove tail and the sight literally just fell out. Two were missing guide rods, and all of them had shoddy plastic grips in which the right grip plate did not line up properly. On some of the pistols it looks like a factory worker took a grinding wheel and just ground down the back of the plate to make it look even cosmetically. However, it still shifted around and would not properly mate with the frame. We've had a number of other problems with these pistols since rounds have been put downrange.
Best: Ordered 12 H&K P30s earlier this year. No problems to speak of out of the box, and no problems since then.
jmlshooter
06-30-11, 13:43
January 2010: NIB Colt Lightweight Government Model.
One round discharged. Slide blew past slide stop, rendering weapon inoperable.
2009 Taurus: Refused to warranty PT-92. Muzzle crown machined at least a 45% angle to the center line of the bore. Corrected it and traded it off for XD.
2010 Springfield: Undetermined if it is a QC issue or what. Slide locking back in the middle of a mag. Start off as an isolated incident, but there has been a few more incidents leading me to believe somethings up. Maybe a weak spring?
Recently Colt: RG 1911 had issue barrel to slide fit causing stoppages and thumb safety ill fitted. Sent it in twice. The safety was replaced, but the barrel untouched. I had to fit it myself.
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Doc Safari
06-30-11, 14:53
I bought a couple of Glock 19's (Gen 3) with steel sights over several months. Both had the 'crimp type' steel front sight. Both sights were loose literally after one range session.
I decided to switch strictly to the G17, so I sold one to a friend and pointed out the defect. He didn't care because he planned to install different sights anyway. The other got sold on consignment.
I consider that crimp type front sight as much a design flaw as a QC problem. I broke two sight tools trying to recrimp and tighten them.
All larger calibers suggest use of a locking adhesive (per the sight tool's directions), but the 9mm evidently had no such locking adhesive.
RRA Upper receiver had a few places where the sharp burs were still on the receiver and pauperized that way. Cut myself more than once during the build. Also their A2 style front site post wasn't milled straight down the center, there's approx a .050" difference in thickness from one side to other. Rather disappointing:confused:.
M&P 40 Fullsize, recent production. Sporadic dead trigger issue, sight dots fell out.
M&P 9 Fullsize, 2yrs old, "new old stock" Broken striker, mags fell out randomly, slide rusting.
*Both above were fixed by S&W and then sold*
Glock 17, late 2010 production, sporadic ejection from new, brass going straight up, left, in my face, etc. Tried new recoil spring and variety of ammo, nothing helped. Started having failures to eject around 860rnds. Sold with disclosure.
I've had many many more displeasures with a variety of pistols, these being my most recent....and since it was already mentioned, SIG really needs a new vendor for their plastic grips. Most all of mine have sucked in the fit dept.
Patriot328
06-30-11, 17:13
Long time lurker, so I hate to make this my first post, but...
Best.. I bought two HKs. One HK45c and one P30.. Both LEMs and they have run like tops without a malfunction.
Worst.. An FN FNX 9mm that is currently at FN, hopefully getting fixed for this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-AGI_-a06E
When the gun is warm (as in sitting in the sun warm), it won't fire in DA mode. Not very pleased with it and there are a few people on the FN forums that are having the same problem. Hopefully it isn't widespread and hopefully they fix it for me properly.
Edit: I will say, FN did fix it correctly. They sent me new pistol. Tested it out in the heat (dry fire) and no problems. Good on them.
lloydkristmas
06-30-11, 18:33
Gen 3 Glock 17 that would stovepipe every couple hundred rounds or so.
FN FS2000 that would light strike 1 in 30 rounds, easy fix, but still....
I handled (I dont own it) a CZ P07 ( I think that was the designation) at my local shop, and the white Glock-style U shaped plastic insert in the rear sight fell out as I was holding it.
Like some others said, my HK pistols have always been flawless. I dont recall ever having a malfunction with any of the half dozen or so that Ive owned.
F-Trooper05
06-30-11, 19:48
My one and only SIG (a 2010 P226) had the rear sight drift almost all the way out of the dovetail during it's first trip to the range. That, and the fact that the mags kept leaving rust all over the mag-well convinced me to sell it soon thereafter.
Well,
About 2004 or 2005 local gun dealer ordered in several Remington 870's. All had to be sent back because the chamber's weren't finished.
One STAG .223 MG was causing rounds to impact sideways. It got sent back and fixed.
Out of a department full of G21SF's I think three had dead night sights upon opening the box. Later a fourth one joined them.
Mossbergs have always been a problem some way or another.
Alpha Sierra
07-01-11, 06:04
Glock 17 Gen 4. 2 FTEs within the first 350 rounds. This was an early model w/o the counterbore for the recoil spring.
Unmarked recoil spring replaced with 02 spring, FTEs gone.
02 recoil spring got bound up in the slide hole (just like the original), making field strip a hassle. 02 spring replaced with Glockmeister spring, which fixed that issue and still kept the pistol running reliably.
GM spring replaced with Glock 021 spring (which has a metal cup at the front end to enclose the first coil). 021 spring continues to run the gun reliably (just over 2500 rounds since last malf) and now pistol strips easily and w/o drama.
The 02 spring belongs in G17s with the slide counterbore. The 021 belongs in those without.
S&W - ordered a 686SSR. Noticed that the right grip panel was not sitting flush. The side plate screw underneath was not flush. It was the correct screw, but would not bottom out. Returned to S&W for repair. Service was prompt, but they had to replace the frame. Thank you S&W. How did it pass QC in the first place? Lost interest in the gun and tried to sell it. No one will touch it. Even though I have a letter from S&W that states that they replaced the frame, the box no longer matches the frame and everybody runs quickly away thinking that something is wrong. :(
sniperfrog
07-01-11, 07:52
2010 M&P9 FS.
I could not release the slide with the slide stop without using two thumbs and as much force as I could press.
I think this may have been done on purpose since S&W took some flak for auto forwarding slides and the cs guy told me they recommend the "grab the slide" method for dropping it on a reload. I sent it back and S&W fixed it. Now the gun won't auto forward unless I really slam the mag hard but it is still easy to drop the slide with the slide stop.
malignantbum
07-01-11, 09:29
I see the recurring theme of, "increase QC". This is a nice thought but have these individuals looked at the fact there are already numerous QC programs in place at SIG. First Pass Yield, VWI's for production workers, etc. What it all boils down to is your production employee. This is where quality really is, sure you can hire a boatload of production and manufacturing engineers, then expand your QC dept, implement even more programs and flowcharts, adopt and implement the latest ISO standards but what does this really do? It does provide for increased "catches", yet does not address the real problem, your floor employee who is not paying attention to what they are doing and have no pride in their work. A company relies on the floor employee, and management provides the direction. The two are a cohesive unit integral to success. I grow weary of individuals flamining management yet giving labor a pass.
I see the recurring theme of, "increase QC". This is a nice thought but have these individuals looked at the fact there are already numerous QC programs in place at SIG. First Pass Yield, VWI's for production workers, etc. What it all boils down to is your production employee. This is where quality really is, sure you can hire a boatload of production and manufacturing engineers, then expand your QC dept, implement even more programs and flowcharts, adopt and implement the latest ISO standards but what does this really do? It does provide for increased "catches", yet does not address the real problem, your floor employee who is not paying attention to what they are doing and have no pride in their work. A company relies on the floor employee, and management provides the direction. The two are a cohesive unit integral to success. I grow weary of individuals flamining management yet giving labor a pass.
That's a good point. This country needs more basic pride in one's workmanship. More emphasis on skilled labor and trades.
Managers assume anybody who doesn't have at least a 4 year degree to be a disposable wage-slave, barely worthy of flipping burgers.
Workers these days don't have the skills of past generations, and the culture does not reward people who seek those skills. If you try to become an expert at anything, management will try to get rid of you. Their MBA's tell them the road to profit means avoiding "irreplaceable" skilled workers. You can qualify yourself right out of a job if you're not careful.
Ruger SP101
Shot fine, but once it heated up after a few rounds, the cylinder release got harder and harder to push and it finally locked up, making it impossible to reload. Gunsmith got it open, and it was sent back to Ruger, fixed and returned.
It is my dad's pistol, but I have witnessed every round through it.
1. Upon taking my advice, my brother recently had a negative experience with a new, late model production 3rd gen G27. The recoil spring failed just as he began working on the second box of range ammo- 57 rounds. Replaced with a new OEM part and the same thing happened after another 148 rounds. Replaced once again and the pistol has been solid for about 1,200 rounds.
After looking at the recoil assembly it appears that the lip on both of the captive rods had simply failed. I understand that this not that uncommon?
2. Not a huge issue, but I purchased a new Ruger LC9 and immediately brought it to the range. Gun was so full of cosmoline or some other lubricant/preservative (as I later discovered) that the hammer began sticking after the tigger was pulled. Cleaned it up and it works fine. I cannot see how that much gunk got past any visual QC inspection. Now I thoroughly clean and relube all of my new firearms before going to the range.
Not hardly recent, but memorable to me. I was on official business over in the UK back in 1983 and among other things visited with the the London Metropolitan Police's firearms unit. We toured their armory and while there they showed me their Ruger Mini-14s. At least one had the hole in the rear sight aperture missing--just a solid rear face.
It was a little embarassing not only because I was an American, but a Ruger stockholder at the time as well. Pretty hard to put a good spin on a mistake like that...
My new 9mm H&K P2000 (back in 2008) came with a .40 recoil spring. It wouldn't function for more then 2-3 rounds. HK did take care of me and replaced the spring as well as sending me a bunch of goodies.
Regarding the PX4SC in the OP.
Beretta sent me a call tag on the 6-6-11, and they had a brand new PX4SC for me on 6-27-11. That is counting the time of 2 days waiting on the shipping label plus 4 days to & from Accokeek.
Very happy with Beretta's CS. :smile:
2009- S&W MP40 (new in dealer's display) front sight installed backwards, only one magazine with pistol.
2008- S&W MP45 slide and magazines rusting (stolen!)
2010- Sig P238(? 1911ish .380) thumb safety that took two thumbs to depress or engage.
2010- Mossberg 590 magazine spring so weak it won't feed the last round from the tube (new in box)
Best QC: HK
7600+ rounds through my HK P30 V3 in 6 months without a single issue (had a hiccup on the first day of purchase when I used cheap, steel cased TULAmmo without cleaning or lubing). Flawless since then through mud, water, dirt, grass, buried, etc through a recent 2000 round challenge.
Worst QC: Taurus
Shot my buddy's Taurus outdoors. Shoots through the first magazine fine, then starts to jam almost every other round. We detail stripped the gun, cleaned and lubed it again. Still jams. I don't have much experience with Taurus pistols in general, but this sealed the deal for me on a relatively brand new gun. Wouldn't bet my life on it.
I grow weary of individuals flamining management yet giving labor a pass.
I grow weary of management allowing their labor to under-perform. That's the burden of leadership...you own the successes and failures of your people.
IF THE LABOR SUCKS, THE MANAGEMENT IS TO BLAME. SO EITHER WAY, THE PEOPLE WHO MAKE THE BIG BUCKS ARE AT FAULT
I have a broken disconnector spring on my Bersa Thunder 380. I removed the grip and confirmed that it was the problem. Apparently others have had the same issue. I think I'll send it for repairs this week.
The_War_Wagon
07-03-11, 12:01
I've been blessed to encounter nothing by GOOD QC on my firearm purchases of the past 18 years. Last crappy firearm I bought, was a Norinco 1911 I bought new in the spring of '93, that went Electrolux on me on it's SECOND magful of HARDBALL. :mad: I finally stopped buying suckerific & craptacular 1911's, and went Springfield Armory after that. Never looked back! :cool:
Well,
About 2004 or 2005 local gun dealer ordered in several Remington 870's. All had to be sent back because the chamber's weren't finished.
One STAG .223 MG was causing rounds to impact sideways. It got sent back and fixed.
Out of a department full of G21SF's I think three had dead night sights upon opening the box. Later a fourth one joined them.
Mossbergs have always been a problem some way or another.
I dont think we ever got through a shotgun qualifacation without breaking one of those 14" 590s. Usually a safty..
Kimber Custom II:
Bought 2008-May. First trip to the range, would not shoot under 20 MOA at 10 yards. Groups were spread around 12-16"+. (my Remington Rand 1911 with a BarSto barrel is under 1MOA always). I called Kimber, and they said it had to "break-in" and that the fault was with me and my "weak" grip. Two days later, they called me and told me that my serial number is from a batch with defective barrels with "unfinished" rifling. This should have been caught at the test firing QC check. Sent it back to Kimber and they replaced the barrel, barrel link, and bushing. At this point, it had 200 rounds through it.
2008-July: Grip safety broke. The firing pin (Schwartz) safety would not disengage, and the grip safety release tab was finished. Back to Kimber again. They replaced the grip safety, complete FP safety and springs. Round count 700 at this point.
2008 September: MIM hammer cracked where it hits the FP. Back to Kimber again. This time they replaced the hammer, sear, links, thumb safety, springs, FP, and MSH. It came back with the front sight loose and very heavy and deep scratches on the slide. When I got it back, I called Kimber and had to go to a senior manager to get them to replace the slide. Back to Kimber for a replacement slide and they through in a Custom shop action job for my "trouble". At this point it had 1030 rounds through it.
At this point, the Custom II was put up for sale and ended up being sold for basically what I paid for it. By this time, there were only 1200 rounds through it, but had accumulated 22,000 miles plus in shipping. I do have to say that Kimber was accommodating, but these are problems that could have been avoided in the first place with better QC and parts quality. I understand that "shit happens", but there's no reason to have so many problems with a proven, 100 year old design.
The QC model where profitablity of lower quality of parts and construction is balanced against products liability claims exposure is what shouldn't be followed, but is all too common these days.
I grow weary of management allowing their labor to under-perform. That's the burden of leadership...you own the successes and failures of your people.
IF THE LABOR SUCKS, THE MANAGEMENT IS TO BLAME. SO EITHER WAY, THE PEOPLE WHO MAKE THE BIG BUCKS ARE AT FAULT
Thank you. I got into a rather heated debate on this topic with another individual today over a similar topic.
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Poor QC is a management problem not a worker problem. We (America) have a "management" problem.
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