View Full Version : Acceptable accuracy of shooter
Can someone give me an idea of what is acceptable accuracy for a small CCW type handgun.
Several threads are going on about precision and accuracy of a weapon but what is acceptable for the shooter.
My CCW is Walter PPS. By most all accounts this is an accurate weapon.
Here is where I stand and I would like to know just how much better an excellent shooter would be. I'm basically trying to figure out what the targets would look like if 10 different accomplished shooters did this.
No time limit. No stress. Standard over the counter ammo like WWB
10 shots
7.5 Yards - I can now keep 10 shots in the black on a target that has 5.5" black B-8(c) 25yrd Repair center to be exact. The final group will most likely fit in a 3.5" circle just not centered up so I still need that entire 5.5" ( I honestly believe I will be able to take an inch off that in the near future.
25yrds - 12" circle - I can land 8 of 10 in the circle. There will be no real rhyme or reason as to where they land and 8 of 10 is about the best I will do repeatedly.
So if you are a good shot, can you tell me what you expect from yourself if you walked up to either of these scenarios.
I've seen great shooters in BullsEye matches but i'm looking for what constitutes normal everyday results from a basic weapon so I can try to set some realistic goals and maybe start identifying my next level of what needs fixing.
Thanks for your help.
TB
One small problem with this... In regards to CCW, Time IS a factor. Stress IS a factor when it comes down to defensive shooting. There won't be any time for breathing and shaking the nerves out prior to pulling the trigger. That's why I train with a shot timer. One other thing I like to do is get my heart rate up prior to doing a drill.
As far as proficiency, at 7 yards, I can keep them in about the size of the bottom of a pop can at an accelerated rate of fire, but for the most part, if you hit what you are aiming at, and do it multiple times, in a short amount of time, that's what counts.
That's makes sense but I feel like I need a base line to demonstrate to myself that I have the basics down. I just don't know how good, "good" is.
I definitely can't hit the bottom of a coke can reliably. I especially could not it quickly and stressed.
I do have a shot timer but am yet to use it.
My concern was say having a paper plate and I could hit it reliably, quickly, etc.. I still would not know how small my group of shots should/could be without first getting my basics down solid.
So I do want to try what you are suggesting. Pushups or whatever to get my arms shaking, but I want to know what is a "good to very good everyday" basis to build from.
EDIT: and with regard to CCW, that is more a reference to a compact short barrel handgun. Compact Glock, PPS, small revolver, etc. NOT a larger more inherently accurate weapon.
"Good" to me is 600+ on this:
http://www.firearmstrainingandtactics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267
550 or better is probably just fine, but my goal is to break 650.
Being able to break 600 on demand, every time, is better than most.
Thanks, I'll try that one. Might have a problem with the prone. We have a low berm 3/4 way to the 25yrd backstop. I might can do it on the very end position.
That's makes sense but I feel like I need a base line to demonstrate to myself that I have the basics down. I just don't know how good, "good" is.
My advice is to stop comparing yourself to other shooters, and compare yourself to standards an instructor endorses.
I think these provide a good base line: http://www.combatshootingandtactics.com/standards.htm
And there are more here: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=16760
I follow the simple and easy rule that I need to be able to shoot 2.5-3" groups at 25yds. The reason for this is because everything doubles under stress (like someone trying to kill you). So that means that I will shoot 5-6 inches. Anything larger than that and I won't be able to put a round in the head. YMMV
C4
Damn, I've got a long way to go..
Now just to be clear again. You guys are doing this with compact guns?
I mean I've seen that guy on YouTube shoot the PPS out past 50 yards but what I'm hearing is I need to get my shots consistently into the 10 ring on a B-8 target at 25 yards no stress.
I can tell that's going to be quite an ordeal.
Damn, I've got a long way to go..
Now just to be clear again. You guys are doing this with compact guns?
I mean I've seen that guy on YouTube shoot the PPS out past 50 yards but what I'm hearing is I need to get my shots consistently into the 10 ring on a B-8 target at 25 yards no stress.
I can tell that's going to be quite an ordeal.
To be honest, you are talking to some guys on this forum (like coolbreeze) that shoot a lot, have a lot of training and just flat out have "ability". So this isn't your "average" gun forum where people struggle to hit dirt.
I shoot my PPS BETTER than I shoot my full size M&P. So yes, we are talking about guns with 2.5" barrels, 3" barrels, 4" barrels, etc.
I have shot my PPS at over 85yds and hit a 10X12 plate with ease (is almost boring how accurate this little gun is).
Take some training from instructors that stress accuracy. Vickers and Hackathorn would be my first two choices. Then practice. Then practice some more. Then after about a solid year of attending training classes and PRACTICING what you have learned, you will see pretty good growth in your ability.
C4
I have shot my PPS at over 85yds and hit a 10X12 plate with ease (is almost boring how accurate this little gun is).
Ok, you're just trying to make me feel bad now, lol.
No, I understand now. I just wasn't sure. Like I said, I've seen BullsEye targets and those guys "target" was basically the X ring. I just wasn't sure about everyday style guns.
On the subject of training and the PPS. Would you consider it an acceptable gun to take training with or would something with more capacity be a better choice?
This is kind of what I'm trying to get set up for. To prepare myself for a class or two.
Ok, you're just trying to make me feel bad now, lol.
No, I understand now. I just wasn't sure. Like I said, I've seen BullsEye targets and those guys "target" was basically the X ring. I just wasn't sure about everyday style guns.
On the subject of training and the PPS. Would you consider it an acceptable gun to take training with or would something with more capacity be a better choice?
This is kind of what I'm trying to get set up for. To prepare myself for a class or two.
Always compete against yourself. Don't worry about what other people are doing (or how well they shoot). To many people get consumed with this and it ruins the "fun" of shooting.
I would have no issue running a PPS in a basic pistol or CCW class. You are going to do a lot of mag changes though and might want to have eight or more mags before attending a class.
I teach a lot of NEW shooters (the kind that aren't really sure what all the buttons and switches are for on their gun) and I will tell you that it is BETTER to get proper training before you start to develop your bad habits into a routine (that will be hard to get out of at a later date).
Edited to add that you have some VSM instructors close by (one in VA and one in NC). So I would suggest looking at the VSM class postings and see what you can find. These classes are 100% geared towards a shooter like yourself and are priced very well.
https://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=170
C4
Always compete against yourself. Don't worry about what other people are doing (or how well they shoot). To many people get consumed with this and it ruins the "fun" of shooting.
That's pretty much all I do. Basically the reason for these questions. I'm just trying to figure how to set some goals for myself. I realize some of the answers I get here will be off the charts but I can temper them towards my reality.
VSM? I guess I need to hit the search. I'm drawing a blank on that.
I actually got some very beginner and basic instructions years ago but that guy has now moved away. He was/is a top notch shooter though. Very similar mindset to what I see discussed here.
I don't think I have many bad habits beyond beginner defects. I also have no problem doing whatever I'm told. If you told me I had to shoot left handed all day, I would do it. I might not like it but I would do it.
I wish there was someone here in Central VA. I'm pretty much stuck at going to Black Creek and practicing whatever I can on my own.
My next step is to take some video cameras to see if I pick up where I go wrong. I've reached the point, I can't "see" what I'm screwing up.
EDIT: Ok, VSM, yes, that class they just had in VaBeach would have been perfect for me. I'll keep tabs on those.
That's pretty much all I do. Basically the reason for these questions. I'm just trying to figure how to set some goals for myself. I realize some of the answers I get here will be off the charts but I can temper them towards my reality.
VSM? I guess I need to hit the search. I'm drawing a blank on that.
I actually got some very beginner and basic instructions years ago but that guy has now moved away. He was/is a top notch shooter though. Very similar mindset to what I see discussed here.
I don't think I have many bad habits beyond beginner defects. I also have no problem doing whatever I'm told. If you told me I had to shoot left handed all day, I would do it. I might not like it but I would do it.
I wish there was someone here in Central VA. I'm pretty much stuck at going to Black Creek and practicing whatever I can on my own.
My next step is to take some video cameras to see if I pick up where I go wrong. I've reached the point, I can't "see" what I'm screwing up.
VSM = Vickers Shooting Method
Follow the link I posted and it will take you to a listing of classes offered by the Regional VSM instructors.
C4
10-4, sorry, I missed the link. M4C site is not refreshing properly for me now. I'm getting text and a grey background making things a bit hard to read.
Yeah, looks like he is aiming for Aug/Sept again.
As I have been told by various instructors..
"If you have a nice small group you need to speed up. If your shots are all over the place you need to slow down."
Group size without some sort of time/stress factor is not really a great indicator of "acceptable accuracy" IMO.
As I have been told by various instructors..
"If you have a nice small group you need to speed up. If your shots are all over the place you need to slow down."
Group size without some sort of time/stress factor is not really a great indicator of "acceptable accuracy" IMO.
One of my favorite lines that I received from a Combat Vet: "No one will EVER need to tell you to shoot faster in a gun fight."
Speed comes naturally with practice. Too many people worry about how fast they can go, but don't shoot good groups. Always crawl, walk, run. Meaning, Shoot SLOW concentrated groups to improve your trigger manipulation. As the groups improve, you can try and do it in less time.
C4
I think that that saying was aimed at people who already have the basic skills but are content with nice tight groups with no concern at all for their speed.
If speed wasnt a factor or something to be "worked on" in balance with accuracy we wouldn't have timed standards or bother using shot timers. If you are a pure beginner I agree. Foucs on the fundamentals, work on "smootheness" and then the speed will come. But otherwise (IMO) you should be pushing your speed till you notice a change in your accuracy to see where your limits are.
I follow the simple and easy rule that I need to be able to shoot 2.5-3" groups at 25yds. The reason for this is because everything doubles under stress (like someone trying to kill you). So that means that I will shoot 5-6 inches. Anything larger than that and I won't be able to put a round in the head. YMMV
C4
A 2.5-3" group of how many rounds?
Magic_Salad0892
07-01-11, 17:07
A 2.5-3" group of how many rounds?
5, I'd assume. I try it with 10. I don't shoot for groups with a pistol that much though. I'd say I probably shoot a 10 round slow fire group to warm up, and the other 500 rounds are spent running drills.
Redback One qualification drills.
Ken Hackathorn's 1-2-3-4-5 drill, and variations of.
El Presidente.
FAST (twice at the end of the day)
15 rounds at 200m. (Newly adopted. Personal best 8-15 hits.)
Usually what I do.
Damn, I've got a long way to go..
Now just to be clear again. You guys are doing this with compact guns?
I shoot with a Glock 19, yes.
If you run a smaller gun with a shorter sight radius, it's going to be more of a challenge.
The Humber is good because it's a benchmark drill. Do it, write down your scores on each stage, and keep them. Keep checking back in on it and just make sure your scores go up, not down.
If you're starting out shooting a 425, so be it...at least you have measured where you're at currently. Use it to identify your weaknesses, then work on those weaknesses.
The simple/intro version is the 200...the slow fire portions, only. No sense in running the rapid fire stages if you're not getting 80% or better of your points during slow (un-timed) fire.
Many of our goals as shooters is to always improve. Many of us are not happy being "good enough", we know we can always learn and improve, so we work on it.
There are a lot of good benchmark drills of "good enough." 250 on the Hack, passing the Paul Howe pistol standards, the LAV "Sybol Drill", "The Test", etc.
The Humbler is just one of the best ways to track and improve your pure accuracy potential (read: sight alignment and trigger control).
Now just to be clear again. You guys are doing this with compact guns?
Yes.
G19 - it's all I own.
I think that that saying was aimed at people who already have the basic skills but are content with nice tight groups with no concern at all for their speed.
If speed wasnt a factor or something to be "worked on" in balance with accuracy we wouldn't have timed standards or bother using shot timers. If you are a pure beginner I agree. Foucs on the fundamentals, work on "smootheness" and then the speed will come. But otherwise (IMO) you should be pushing your speed till you notice a change in your accuracy to see where your limits are.
Speed comes naturally with practice. Yes, we have timed drills, but not as many as pure accuracy based drills though.
C4
A 2.5-3" group of how many rounds?
I shoot the 6 and 7rd mags with my PPS so typically that many rounds. Guns that hold more rounds, I shoot 10rd groups.
Today, I did some shooting and shot consistent 3.5-4" groups with the PPS and 2.5" groups with the PPQ.
C4
Well I have to say thanks and I admire how well you guys can shoot.
This gives me a reality basis to at least work towards.
@Backstop thanks for those links also. I need to do some more reading on that site.
I'm going to try some of all these suggestions and see if I can at least get on to the 25yrd target more reliably.
I would be ecstatic if I could get everything in the 10 ring of a B-8 at 7.5yrds and within the 8 ring at 25yrds in a fairly relaxed fashion by this Fall.
I shoot the 6 and 7rd mags with my PPS
Grant do like the 8 round mags? I'm not crazy about it. I mostly just shoot the 7rnd. I don;t have a 6rnd but was thinking of converting the 8 to a 6.
The 7 feels perfect to me and the 8 makes the grip feel too long.
Grant do like the 8 round mags? I'm not crazy about it. I mostly just shoot the 7rnd. I don;t have a 6rnd but was thinking of converting the 8 to a 6.
The 7 feels perfect to me and the 8 makes the grip feel too long.
I do not. I use and carry the 7rd mag the most. Reason being that I can put one in the chamber and then fully load and insert the 7rd mag (giving me 8 over all).
C4
Interesting. Maybe I should just convert it to 7 and just go with all 7s.
spamsammich
07-02-11, 03:33
Well I have to say thanks and I admire how well you guys can shoot.
This gives me a reality basis to at least work towards.
@Backstop thanks for those links also. I need to do some more reading on that site.
I'm going to try some of all these suggestions and see if I can at least get on to the 25yrd target more reliably.
I would be ecstatic if I could get everything in the 10 ring of a B-8 at 7.5yrds and within the 8 ring at 25yrds in a fairly relaxed fashion by this Fall.
I tried some ball and dummy drills out to 25 yards today during a quick trip to the range, talk about eye opening. It's gonna be a long while until I reach the level of these guys, I can't imagine adding time pressure at this point.
Grant is correct, Crawl, walk, run. I cannot stress this enough and it bears repeating. We implement this progression in almost everything we do in a specific learning progression to get desired results. Ideally we always want to learn and progress in this specific manner as we are building on the prior fundamental or skill in a correct learning progression. Do not skip around. If you are having problems, hit the reset button and start from the beginning or from scratch.
Having said the above, fundamentals are KING. Master the basic fundamentals in a slow un-timed rate of fire such as a one hole drill. A good speed or combat shooter is simply taking the basic fundamentals and applying them in a much more rapid manner. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast. Another cliche perhaps, but very true. Get your basics down in a correct manner and speed will come.
Take the progression of the fundamentals in a progressive order.
- Stance - I'd suggest a modern combat isosceles stance.
- Grip. Make sure your grip is correct. I'd suggest a modern combat or thumbs forward. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdDFA9EtFc4)
- Sight Alignment. Second most important factor. Sights must stay correctly aligned throughout the entire trigger pull process.
- Sight Picture. Hard front sight in-focus, blurry rear sight, blurry target. Placing this alignment and maintaining that on our target throughout the trigger pull.
- Breathing. Critical in pure accuracy or one hole drill type of shooting. Learn to shoot on the respiratory pause after the exhale.
- Trigger Control. Pulling the trigger straight to the rear with no sideways influence in a smooth motion while not disrupting your sight alignment / sight picture. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LmO3Cku3CI)Learning proper trigger manipulation is the most important fundamental with causes the greatest chance for accuracy issues. This also stems into pushing or flinching.
- Follow Through. Maintain our sight picture as the slide cycles keeping your head and shoulders down. Track your sights until they settle back on target. DO NOT LOOK UP AT THE TARGET TO SEE YOUR HOLE APPEAR. Raising your head will raise your shoulders which will raise your muzzle and send shots high.
One hole Drill. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFUyupthQPk)A nice small group under un-timed slow fire from say 5-7 yards will show a shooters mastery or proficiency in applying the basic fundamentals of marksmanship. Aim small, miss small. Get this down first. Once you have good mastery of the fundamentals we can increase the speeds and or distances. A good speed shooter is merely proficient with applying the basic fundamentals much more quickly. Of course practice and skill will allow a more skilled shooter more room to deviate on the basic fundamentals depending on what kind of accuracy that they wish to achieve at a particular distance in a given time frame.
After establishing your good base for fundamentals you can move on to finding your own balance between speed vs accuracy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzkzDxbmKY0) and how to progress with this.
As for shooting at distance (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMdKfZJry18), we should just think of shooting a smaller target at close range instead of shooting the same sized target at increasing distances. Often shooting as distance increases is mostly a mental block in many shooters. I would suggest starting at 5 yards then increasing at 5 yard increments out to 50+ yards. The center circle on say a pepper popper is a good target size to use. Once you start getting good hits at say 50 yards, 7-10 yards will seem like childs play.
Eventually when you get good out to say 50 yards you can progress out to say 200+ yards. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs1QxEs3MPE)If you can incorporate this into your normal training routine and get proficient, 50 and even 100 yards will seem simple. This concept of very exaggerated skills also applies to many other things. It goes along with the concept of how you perform under stress. If you will only perform at a certain percentage of your normal skill level while under stress, practice for more perfection. This extended distance or increased speed concept can apply to say shooting at distance, shooting on the move etc, etc, etc...
"Take the progression of the fundamentals in a progressive order."
On a scale of 1 - 10
- Stance - 8+
- Grip. - 8+
- Sight Alignment. - 6
- Sight Picture. - 6
- Breathing. - 8+
- Trigger Control. - 6 (recently after your videos though I will get some better pulls )
- Follow Through. - 7+
=================
I know what the sights are supposed to look like but trying to maintain picture and trigger control those three aspects ( sight, sight, Trigger ) interact so much it's like I'm juggling and one ball is always in the air. It's like I always have a three legged stool with only two legs once the shot breaks.
To some degree I have a spoked wheel but I really feel like most of the spokes are pretty tight and true but those three I can never seem to develop into solid foundation.
==========
PPS specific question. Generally speaking I have always like my sights to be a 6:00 hold or I think some may call it dotting the I?
For instance in your one hole drill with the 1" orange dot. I would prefer my sights look like three level bars with the bottom of that orange dot sitting on the center bar. This would result in a hole dead center of the orange.
On my PPS though, I sort of have to super-impose the center dot over the orange target dot AND create three level bars ( Rear - Front - Rear top surfaces ) AND keep the front centered between the two rear AND retain focus on front only.
What are your thoughts on that? I think I might have some sort of defect in my thinking with this particular setup but not sure how to work through it. On my other guns i just adjust the sights but they are blade type target sights and it's easily done.
EDIT - It is important that I stress that there is no replacement for a quality instructor who can observe and remediate on the spot. Having said that......
You rate your trigger control / sight alignment / sight picture, to be the lowest on your proficiency scale, when in reality they need to be THE highest in the above order. Perhaps simple dry fire drills where you pick a spot across the room and practice these skills to proficiency without the actual bang of the weapon. Of course at some point dry fire will only get you so far, but it is very important. It allows you to see any small imperfections in your sight picture as you pull the trigger. Dry fire drills will very much help you monitor your sight alignment while doing a proper trigger pull and follow through without the interruption of the gun actually going bang. The trigger pull method in my video will greatly help with maintaining good sight alignment and will help you to maintain all 3 legs on your stool. I have a raw video on dry fire drills / fixing flinches etc, but I haven't had the time to put it together and post it.
Bisecting the target, dotting the "i" or "lollypopping" your sights can be shooter preference, especially if you have adjustable or target sights. Knowing your point of aim / point of impact on combat sights is most important as there is often less adjustability in these sights. Always maintain the proper sight alignment, flat across the top, equal light or space between the FSP and rear notch.
Determining this POA/POI with the weapon is developed via consistency of sight alignment, aim point (bisect or dotted i) and repetition. In other words, pick whatever you chose as a preference for where you place your aligned sights in relation to the point of aim and do repetitive and correct practice. The main thing is that you have a consistent POA and a small group size first. Do not chase your hits around the target. Always maintain the exact POA, to get a small group size. Where your group prints on paper in relationship to the target or the POA is not of importance until you can maintain a small group. Once you establish consistency in small group sizes, you can adjust your aim point to bring the group into the center of the target or desired POI.
Of course we can more easily adjust left to right, or the windage of the combat sights, but the up / down adjustment is more difficult. Understanding your particular weapons POI, especially in regards to elevation, on combat sights will often make the determination of the type of hold that you use. Again the left to right is adjusted but "bisecting" or "dotting the i" etc, on a combat sight may be determined on a weapon to weapon basis and our own particular familiarity with that particular weapon and where it prints in regards to elevation.
Thanks Surf, I appreciate your time on this.
I think the next time I go out, I'm going to try some of those orange dot targets and simply try to do this....
1. dot the i
2. let the bullets go where they go
3. just try to focus on those big 3 of sight and trigger
and see if I end up with a smaller group.
Now that you mention it, I'm not convinced I know exactly where this thing hits in relation to POA and I may indeed be trying to chase things into the center.
"Take the progression of the fundamentals in a progressive order."
On a scale of 1 - 10
- Stance - 8+
- Grip. - 8+
- Sight Alignment. - 6
- Sight Picture. - 6
- Breathing. - 8+
- Trigger Control. - 6 (recently after your videos though I will get some better pulls )
- Follow Through. - 7+
To be honest here, the trigger pull is really the MOST important thing to master here. Reason is because in the real world, you might not have good stance, sight picture or grip, but will still have to make the shot. What makes this possible is trigger manipulation.
Before I ever attended a CQB/Room Clearing based training, I put a lot of emphasis on stance and sight picture. Then I learned that either on the move or in tight spaces, I might not have either, but still have to make the shot. This is where proper trigger manipulation comes into play and IS the most important aspect of pistol shooting.
So I think you need more time with this element (under supervision) than any of the others.
C4
Surf's comments about understanding where your gun's natural POA/POI is right on the money. You really must know where your gun shoots in order to hit what you are aiming at. Most people never figure this out because their don't know how to check it OR they don't shoot well enough to get a consistent grouping (which tells them where the guns POA/POI is). This is back to trigger manipulation again.
Ball and dummy drills will help a lot with a flinch. If you do not have a shooting partner, take dummy rounds and load them into your mag (more dummy rounds than live rounds is preferred). If possible, have someone else load your mags for you so you don't know exactly where they are.
C4
Thanks Grant, yes, I have to agree. I almost rated my Trigger at 5 because I think that single aspect pulls everything else down.
IOW if someone asked me to rate the items individually and demonstrate/repeat each 5 times.
I could get a 9/10 on them all individually except the trigger because I will invariably upset the gun in the course of pulling the trigger. Even in dry fire I can see tiny erratic movements sometimes.
I would say my second worst thing is good focus / retaining focus on the front sight. It's really hard to describe but my brain spends what I feel is an inordinate amount of time running through the "fundamental list" so to speak. It finally boils down to front sight / pull, FS/Pull, FS/Pull,.....and then I often do two things wrong. I feel like my wobble gets to big and I try to snap the shot as I "pass through" the X so to speak ( which I know is wrong ) AND I loose that FS focus at the most critical point in time.
I have watched Surfs - grip videos several times now and although I was already using that style grip I have made a couple minor improvements so my weak hand heel doesn't leave any gap now and this revised position actually feels better and more solid.
I've always shot two eyes open, left eye dominant, isosceles stance. I understand the breathing cycle, but all those things are not what I would say are done without thought. In fact, if I'm not mindful of them I will see my results deteriorate.
When things go out to distance my focus really starts to give me problems. I'm going to try surf's mindset of "it's not further away, it's just smaller" and see what happens.
I think I have about 50% too much internal dialog in my shooting and in dry fire practice I don't have nearly this going on.
I'm going to order some dummy rounds. That is only thing I have never really worked with. I can't seem to find any in the stores.
Anyway, I may make it to the range today and try these new thoughts/techniques and see if things get smaller. I have a target from last week which I consider my practical ability best so maybe I can shrink things down some.
spamsammich
07-03-11, 20:56
I usually don't shoot with a partner so what I have to do with my ball and dummy drills is to load 3 mags with between 5-6 rounds in each mag with a dummy or two interspersed in randomly in each mag. Then I take all 3 loaded mags and play the shell game with them while I'm focusing downrange so I don't know which mag has what load. I then load the gun, rack, and carefully holster. Then I load my mag holders on my belt by feel. This has GREATLY improved my shooting lately along with remedial dry fire should I snatch at the trigger.
Grant, would you recommend even more dummies in the mix? I also had a question about remedial dry fire, should I go all the way back to they holster every time I cock the striker, or just start from high or low ready?
Well I didn't improve my groups today but I did figure out one thing.
I -thought- that I occasionally would flinch, rock forward, or push the gun down. But in reality, it's the rare occasion that I actually hold steady and just pull the trigger.
The image with the black square I was aiming where I drew the red mark. Bottom of square basically. The little group of 4 holes is about 1/2". The strays are where I flinch or push or whatever you want to call it. I shoot 5, reload mag, shoot 5 more.
Same for the Orange dot. It was sitting on my front sight post. If I could remove the bottom two and top one shot, I would have been happy with that set. Or I should say, if I could have gotten those three shots in the boundary of the others.
I'm off to get some dummy rounds. At this point I'll be happier to pull the trigger on a dummy round and have the gun stay steady than to have a round fire and hit the X.
Right now it seems like I can only hit what I want maybe 50% and these were the good targets. The others were -really- embarrassing.
https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=8961&stc=1&d=1309752325
https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=8962&stc=1&d=1309752325
Grant while your shooting ability is impressive and far surpasses my own, I have to question the need to make headshots at 25 yards being a good "good enough" standard, all I can think of is the intervening thread.
What is the statistic, most self defense shootings are inside of 7 yards or something like that?
spamsammich
07-04-11, 03:02
Well I didn't improve my groups today but I did figure out one thing.
I -thought- that I occasionally would flinch, rock forward, or push the gun down. But in reality, it's the rare occasion that I actually hold steady and just pull the trigger.
The image with the black square I was aiming where I drew the red mark. Bottom of square basically. The little group of 4 holes is about 1/2". The strays are where I flinch or push or whatever you want to call it. I shoot 5, reload mag, shoot 5 more.
Same for the Orange dot. It was sitting on my front sight post. If I could remove the bottom two and top one shot, I would have been happy with that set. Or I should say, if I could have gotten those three shots in the boundary of the others.
I'm off to get some dummy rounds. At this point I'll be happier to pull the trigger on a dummy round and have the gun stay steady than to have a round fire and hit the X.
Right now it seems like I can only hit what I want maybe 50% and these were the good targets. The others were -really- embarrassing.
https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=8961&stc=1&d=1309752325
https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=8962&stc=1&d=1309752325
How are you prepping the trigger for follow up shots? I happened to be shooting with a couple new shooters today and they had a tendency to come all the way forward with their triggers, past the reset point and pulling all the way back to break the shot. In some cases they were slapping at the trigger while trying to maintain a good sight picture. It took a lot of work and persuasion to get them to pay more attention to sight picture than the target.
I'm going to try to talk them into taking a formal class and train with a more experience shooter. It was a bit shocking to go back to basics with guys that were honestly interested in improving, but shot so infrequently that they barely knew their guns manual of arms. It reminded me of how perishable this skill is and the saying that owning a grand piano doesn't make you a concert pianist.
Thanks Grant, yes, I have to agree. I almost rated my Trigger at 5 because I think that single aspect pulls everything else down.
IOW if someone asked me to rate the items individually and demonstrate/repeat each 5 times.
I could get a 9/10 on them all individually except the trigger because I will invariably upset the gun in the course of pulling the trigger. Even in dry fire I can see tiny erratic movements sometimes.
I would say my second worst thing is good focus / retaining focus on the front sight. It's really hard to describe but my brain spends what I feel is an inordinate amount of time running through the "fundamental list" so to speak. It finally boils down to front sight / pull, FS/Pull, FS/Pull,.....and then I often do two things wrong. I feel like my wobble gets to big and I try to snap the shot as I "pass through" the X so to speak ( which I know is wrong ) AND I loose that FS focus at the most critical point in time.
I have watched Surfs - grip videos several times now and although I was already using that style grip I have made a couple minor improvements so my weak hand heel doesn't leave any gap now and this revised position actually feels better and more solid.
I've always shot two eyes open, left eye dominant, isosceles stance. I understand the breathing cycle, but all those things are not what I would say are done without thought. In fact, if I'm not mindful of them I will see my results deteriorate.
When things go out to distance my focus really starts to give me problems. I'm going to try surf's mindset of "it's not further away, it's just smaller" and see what happens.
I think I have about 50% too much internal dialog in my shooting and in dry fire practice I don't have nearly this going on.
I'm going to order some dummy rounds. That is only thing I have never really worked with. I can't seem to find any in the stores.
Anyway, I may make it to the range today and try these new thoughts/techniques and see if things get smaller. I have a target from last week which I consider my practical ability best so maybe I can shrink things down some.
I use these dummy rounds a lot: http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=9923/Product/SAF_T_TRAINERS
C4
I usually don't shoot with a partner so what I have to do with my ball and dummy drills is to load 3 mags with between 5-6 rounds in each mag with a dummy or two interspersed in randomly in each mag. Then I take all 3 loaded mags and play the shell game with them while I'm focusing downrange so I don't know which mag has what load. I then load the gun, rack, and carefully holster. Then I load my mag holders on my belt by feel. This has GREATLY improved my shooting lately along with remedial dry fire should I snatch at the trigger.
Grant, would you recommend even more dummies in the mix? I also had a question about remedial dry fire, should I go all the way back to they holster every time I cock the striker, or just start from high or low ready?
Typically I run more dummy rounds than real rounds.
It is never a bad thing to work on ones draw stroke, so by all means incorporate it into your draw firing.
C4
[QUOTE=tb-av;1038396]Well I didn't improve my groups today but I did figure out one thing.
I -thought- that I occasionally would flinch, rock forward, or push the gun down. But in reality, it's the rare occasion that I actually hold steady and just pull the trigger.
The image with the black square I was aiming where I drew the red mark. Bottom of square basically. The little group of 4 holes is about 1/2". The strays are where I flinch or push or whatever you want to call it. I shoot 5, reload mag, shoot 5 more.
Same for the Orange dot. It was sitting on my front sight post. If I could remove the bottom two and top one shot, I would have been happy with that set. Or I should say, if I could have gotten those three shots in the boundary of the others.
I'm off to get some dummy rounds. At this point I'll be happier to pull the trigger on a dummy round and have the gun stay steady than to have a round fire and hit the X.
Right now it seems like I can only hit what I want maybe 50% and these were the good targets. The others were -really- embarrassing.
What distance were you shooting at?
I see some consistency in your groups (which is a good thing). Dry firing, dummy rounds (ball and dummy drills) and practice will help over time.
C4
Grant while your shooting ability is impressive and far surpasses my own, I have to question the need to make headshots at 25 yards being a good "good enough" standard, all I can think of is the intervening thread.
What is the statistic, most self defense shootings are inside of 7 yards or something like that?
Think of being able to make head shots at 25yds as a tool that will help you shoot better groups at closer distances.
C4
Grant while your shooting ability is impressive and far surpasses my own, I have to question the need to make headshots at 25 yards being a good "good enough" standard, all I can think of is the intervening thread.
What is the statistic, most self defense shootings are inside of 7 yards or something like that?
If you can take out threats from a distance, you're safer there than you are up close. Distance favors the marksman.
Any retard can hit you at 3 yards...few can reliably hit you at 25, while you're behind cover.
If I have the option to shoot from 25 yards out, I'm going to take it.
Well on some of them, actually on all of them I pull the trigger and hold it back.
Now some strings I fire a shot and lower the muzzle to the bench, release trigger, raise and fire again as new.
On others, I fire, hold, obtain sights again, then sometime release pretty much just to where it resets.
I'm not doing anything fast. This is all slow and deliberate.
I'm going to video tape myself next time out. I want to see exactly what I am doing with regards to moving but someone once told me before that I need to go ahead an pull the trigger where I may be trying to go too slow I just need to commit to pulling it and do so.
I apparently have this horrible knee jerk anticipation problem. I knew I had is -some- but I had no idea it's as bad as it is. The ones where I jerk it away really badly, I know I've done it. But now I realize my "acceptable but wider shots" for lack of a better term are most likely also due to that. IOW, I don't think it's my wobble. I'm not wobbling that much. for instance the B-8 target. If I hit the outer edge of the 9 ring, that's not wobble. I would say maybe the 10/X rings might be wobble and I think that one target(orange dot) shows my side to side wobble is not that bad. In fact I move out to 15 yards and I was able to keep the orange dot pretty steady but the hits were again way off.
I'm convinced I have some psychological block of that gun going bang. Which is really a pisser because I don't mind shooting this gun at all. My .45 shoots about 1/2 the recoil of the PPS, the .38 even less, and the .22 is nothing but I do it with all.
I can sit at home and dry fire at a light switch down the hall and the gun will move a hair. The mechanical clicking might make it move and I can reason the hit would have landed on the edge of the switch lever ( not the wall plate, just the edge of the lever ).
To be honest I have never done dummy round practice except in a revolver and I could always tell which were which.
I have tried to psyche myself out every way I know how. "Pretend it's the light switch." "When it goes bang, it's same thing whether you jerk it around or hold it steady so just hold it steady"
I -might- also be squeezing my fingers tighter which also pulls things down. But I was very confident with stance, grip, sight picture, small wobble, finger to trigger alignment, focus ( that actually drifted out some, but generally was good ).
Are these ok..... http://www.amazon.com/ST-Action-Pro-Trainer-Rounds/dp/B004KZ357G
I think at this point, I actually only need two live rounds per mag.
I may have some other issues that could be tweaked out, but I'm convinced now I'm just jerking the gun around. It's almost always left or down. The southwest quadrant.
@Grant - That's only 7.5 yards.
TB-AV, shooting is a lot like holding a fire cracker with tweezers. Everyone flinches. The one that controls it the most wins.
So how to minimize flinching? Ball and dummy drills. A lot of them.
To be honest, if those groups are at 21ft, you have a good amount of work ahead of you. Be patient, get some quality instruction and practice.
Those dummy rounds are just fine.
C4
To be honest, if those groups are at 21ft, you have a good amount of work ahead of you.
Yeah, that's what I'm thinking too. I'm going into full on dummy round mode. I'm just wasting money slinging rounds.
At least now I've figured where the major problem is and I have much better idea of about where I need to get my results.
I do intend to get some professional help and I do understand how that personal attention does make a major difference from trying to do everything on your own by trial and error.
If you can take out threats from a distance, you're safer there than you are up close. Distance favors the marksman.
Any retard can hit you at 3 yards...few can reliably hit you at 25, while you're behind cover.
If I have the option to shoot from 25 yards out, I'm going to take it.
Any retard huh? Because theres about 100 police shootout videos that would say otherwise.
What if you have the option to get out of or avoid the situation that is almost 100 feet away as well as the option to try and make a stressful 25 yard headshot with a compact handgun? Then which do you choose?
I'm not saying we shouldn't all be striving to that point, I'm saying that if the question is how good do I need to be to be an asset and not a liability, 3" groups at 25 yards is too hard. For reference, every branch of the military only requires you to hit a man size target from that distance.
Any retard huh? Because theres about 100 police shootout videos that would say otherwise.
What if you have the option to get out of or avoid the situation that is almost 100 feet away as well as the option to try and make a stressful 25 yard headshot with a compact handgun? Then which do you choose?
I'm not saying we shouldn't all be striving to that point, I'm saying that if the question is how good do I need to be to be an asset and not a liability, 3" groups at 25 yards is too hard. For reference, every branch of the military only requires you to hit a man size target from that distance.
What do I care about what military service qualifications are? I'm not in the military, I don't get to lay down "covering fire" in neighborhoods, I don't go into battle with 7+ 30 round magazines, I don't have a squad of guys to cover my back, etc.
Are you suggesting that you are not safer being farther away from gunfire? Because that was my point. The further you are away from the other guys muzzle, the safer you are.
And yes, there isn't much skill required at 3 yards and in. Someone who has never shot a single box of ammo can easily get lucky from that close. Where are most good guys killed? It's not at distance...
Any retard huh? Because theres about 100 police shootout videos that would say otherwise.
What if you have the option to get out of or avoid the situation that is almost 100 feet away as well as the option to try and make a stressful 25 yard headshot with a compact handgun? Then which do you choose?
I'm not saying we shouldn't all be striving to that point, I'm saying that if the question is how good do I need to be to be an asset and not a liability, 3" groups at 25 yards is too hard. For reference, every branch of the military only requires you to hit a man size target from that distance.
I think you're missing the point. You're right that it's unlikely that as civilians, any of us will be trying for headshots at 25 yards. Diffusing the situation by escaping or calling the cops would be more likely.
I had the same attitude early on in my shooting because it was too hard to shoot that well at 25 yards. I looked much better making shots at 7-10 yards.
I consistently score around 85 out of 100 (10 round slow fire at 25 yards on a NRA bullseye). Every now and again I'll get a 90 or 91. So no, I still don't get 3" 10-shot groups at 25 yards (G19/G17), but the more I practice and improve at 25 yards, the more noticeable improvement I'm seeing up close.
By practicing the higher level of trigger control required to make hits at 25 yards, I've also found that it is helping me shoot more accurately while shooting fast.
Well on some of them, actually on all of them I pull the trigger and hold it back.
Now some strings I fire a shot and lower the muzzle to the bench, release trigger, raise and fire again as new.
On others, I fire, hold, obtain sights again, then sometime release pretty much just to where it resets.
I'm not doing anything fast. This is all slow and deliberate.
I'm going to video tape myself next time out. I want to see exactly what I am doing with regards to moving but someone once told me before that I need to go ahead an pull the trigger where I may be trying to go too slow I just need to commit to pulling it and do so.
I apparently have this horrible knee jerk anticipation problem. I knew I had is -some- but I had no idea it's as bad as it is. The ones where I jerk it away really badly, I know I've done it. But now I realize my "acceptable but wider shots" for lack of a better term are most likely also due to that. IOW, I don't think it's my wobble. I'm not wobbling that much. for instance the B-8 target. If I hit the outer edge of the 9 ring, that's not wobble. I would say maybe the 10/X rings might be wobble and I think that one target(orange dot) shows my side to side wobble is not that bad. In fact I move out to 15 yards and I was able to keep the orange dot pretty steady but the hits were again way off.
I'm convinced I have some psychological block of that gun going bang. Which is really a pisser because I don't mind shooting this gun at all. My .45 shoots about 1/2 the recoil of the PPS, the .38 even less, and the .22 is nothing but I do it with all.
I can sit at home and dry fire at a light switch down the hall and the gun will move a hair. The mechanical clicking might make it move and I can reason the hit would have landed on the edge of the switch lever ( not the wall plate, just the edge of the lever ).
To be honest I have never done dummy round practice except in a revolver and I could always tell which were which.
I have tried to psyche myself out every way I know how. "Pretend it's the light switch." "When it goes bang, it's same thing whether you jerk it around or hold it steady so just hold it steady"
I -might- also be squeezing my fingers tighter which also pulls things down. But I was very confident with stance, grip, sight picture, small wobble, finger to trigger alignment, focus ( that actually drifted out some, but generally was good ).
Are these ok..... http://www.amazon.com/ST-Action-Pro-Trainer-Rounds/dp/B004KZ357G
I think at this point, I actually only need two live rounds per mag.
I may have some other issues that could be tweaked out, but I'm convinced now I'm just jerking the gun around. It's almost always left or down. The southwest quadrant.
@Grant - That's only 7.5 yards.
I am not a great shot by any means, but I was where you are not too long ago. A few things that I have found to help...
Make sure you follow through as Surf has said. Obtain sight picture, fire, get a second sight picture. This really forces you to focus on the shot and increases your awareness of the front sight under recoil. If you're too busy looking to see where things landed, you're going to stop focusing the the sights and shift your body, sometimes prematurely, and this disturbs the shot.
I've been through the flinching you describe and it's impossible to fix completely with dry fire. Ball and dummy drills are the way to go on this. I'm still flinching/snatching, but with far less frequency.
Also, be careful if you are holding the trigger to the rear after breaking the shot. I've done this in the past and if I held/pressed it too hard, it actually pushed the muzzle down slightly, causing the low misses. I've also found that doing this contributed to my flinching because holding the trigger back became part of the ingrained firing sequence.
Resist the urge to agressively "FIRE" once you obtain the proper sight picture. By doing that, I'll frequently miss low because the trigger press wasn't as refined as it should have been.
Grant while your shooting ability is impressive and far surpasses my own, I have to question the need to make headshots at 25 yards being a good "good enough" standard, all I can think of is the intervening thread.
What is the statistic, most self defense shootings are inside of 7 yards or something like that?
An instructor somewhat local to me, whom I've taken a few pistol classes with has a wife who acts as an assistant instructor at his classes. Last year she won a 75 YARD pistol match using a glock with
irons. When she shoots at the classes she puts "holes in holes" at 20yrds. Forget about 7 yrds:D. I want to shoot like that!
Think Virginia Tech ,columbine shootings. Not that much imagination
needed, think active shooter at the mall, parking lot, school with an AK, or rifle of your choice and he's coming your way after mowing down (insert # here) people and theres no way out except through him. You wanna wait till he's 7 yards from you to engage?
Heck,from my bedroom door to my front door line of sight is 38ft.
My .02
No, you guys are missing the point. You do not need to make 25 yard headshots to be "good enough." OP is asking about some kind of minimum acceptable standard and 25 yard headshits is vastly beyond that. Would it be great if we could all shoot like that? Yes. Should we all be striving for that? Yes. Is that some kind of unwritten qualification to own a gun? **** no it isn't. THATS the point.
No, you guys are missing the point. You do not need to make 25 yard headshots to be "good enough." OP is asking about some kind of minimum acceptable standard and 25 yard headshits is vastly beyond that. Would it be great if we could all shoot like that? Yes. Should we all be striving for that? Yes. Is that some kind of unwritten qualification to own a gun? **** no it isn't. THATS the point.
In post 1, the OP asked:
"Can someone give me an idea of what is acceptable accuracy for a small CCW type handgun."
"Several threads are going on about precision and accuracy of a weapon but what is acceptable for the shooter."
Then he listed some scenarios and said, "So if you are a good shot, can you tell me what you expect from yourself if you walked up to either of these scenarios."
Then in post 3 he said: "That's makes sense but I feel like I need a base line to demonstrate to myself that I have the basics down. I just don't know how good, "good" is."
Nowhere in this entire thread has anyone said that shooting 3" groups at 25 yards is "some kind of unwritten qualification to own a gun".
Everyone who has responded recognizes that the goal is to shoot as accurately as possible and the more accomplished shooters have told him how well they do to give him a point of reference. Everyone has been trying to give him suggestions to improve. There is no pissing match here aside from the one you're trying to start.
I have attempted nothing, maybe you should reread coolbreazes posts and see which side the fire is comming from.
spamsammich
07-05-11, 01:11
There is much butthurt over nothing.
Thanks again for all the replies.
@uwe1
Also, be careful if you are holding the trigger to the rear after breaking the shot. I've done this in the past and if I held/pressed it too hard, it actually pushed the muzzle down slightly, causing the low misses. I've also found that doing this contributed to my flinching because holding the trigger back became part of the ingrained firing sequence.
I'm not positive I'm following you here. Once the trigger breaks it is all the way back. At that point I'm not pressing hard but just holding.
IOW I'm trying to be slow and deliberate to be certain the foundation is there. I hold the trigger back as part of follow through. It's the last step. Some times I mentally review the shot and decide to lower the barrel to the bench at which time I release the trigger. I suppose I should stop doing that and release the trigger while the sights are still aligned on target.
========
As to the 25 yard head shot deal and what is good enough. I pretty much understand where everyone is coming from. I also understand that a lot of people here are beyond "good".
It seems my problem has more to do with consistency than "good". Until I start doing the same thing reliably I can forget about how small the group is or where it lands.
So I suppose I should have asked a side question as well. How consistent is "good" and apparently the answer is "very consistent".
I've ordered my dummy rounds so hopefully this will take me to a more consistent level.
EDIT: Also I meant to say. If I had a choice to shoot at 25 yards as oppose to 7 yards. I would choose 25 simply for the fact I hope the other guy might miss me. The sad reality is, and especially under stress if that half's the shooters potential.. I would be little more than a target at 25 yards because the odds are I would miss my shots. That's not good. That's not good enough. I would in effect be unarmed or maybe have a 20% chance of a good hit.
Any retard huh? Because theres about 100 police shootout videos that would say otherwise.
What if you have the option to get out of or avoid the situation that is almost 100 feet away as well as the option to try and make a stressful 25 yard headshot with a compact handgun? Then which do you choose?
I'm not saying we shouldn't all be striving to that point, I'm saying that if the question is how good do I need to be to be an asset and not a liability, 3" groups at 25 yards is too hard. For reference, every branch of the military only requires you to hit a man size target from that distance.
I think most wise CCW (Civy's) would tell that running is a good option. There are times however when were are not alone (wife/kids/etc). My wife knows that if something bad happens she is take the kids and run for the vehicle or help. I will stand and fight.
Trust me when I say that having the ability to put rounds into tight spaces gives you a very good feeling that you will be able to survive the fight.
If you think it is too hard or stupid to be able to shoot small groups at distance, that is on you so please don't tell the rest of us that we are wrong.
Just so you know, the 2.5-3 inch group requirement comes from Delta. Apparently they have learned that under stress, all groups double in size. So if you are a 6" group shooter then you are going to shoot 12" groups in a fight (or worse). This means that there is a good chance that you will miss center mass. The smaller the groups you can shoot, the more likely you will be able to put a round on target.
C4
No, you guys are missing the point. You do not need to make 25 yard headshots to be "good enough." OP is asking about some kind of minimum acceptable standard and 25 yard headshits is vastly beyond that. Would it be great if we could all shoot like that? Yes. Should we all be striving for that? Yes. Is that some kind of unwritten qualification to own a gun? **** no it isn't. THATS the point.
We all have different standards. The folks I shoot with laugh at 25yd head shots (boring). So me and others in this thread, that IS the acceptable accuracy standard.
Don't think of it so much as being able to make head shots, think about it in terms of hiting a bad guy that is using cover and you have a very small window into which to put a round. This is why we strive to shoot well as we do as we never know what can and will happen.
YMMV.
C4
I'm going into full on dummy round mode.
We usually do it with 20 live rounds each.
1. Set up one IDPA target at 10 yds for each shooter.
2. I'm shooting first, so I hand my empty gun to my partner.
3. He loads one live round, or one dummy round, and hands the gun back to me.
4. I pull the trigger.
5. If it's a live round, my turn is over, and I hand the gun back to him. If I hit the zero zone, that's plus one point for me.
6. If it's a dummy round and I flinch, it's minus one point. And since I flinched, I hand him my gun back, and he loads one live round or one dummy round. Repeat until either I don't flinch, or it's a live round.
7. If it's a dummy round and I don't flinch, that's plus one point for me, and my turn is over.
8. It's now his turn to shoot, and he hands me his empty gun.
Obviously this can be modified as you see fit.
And don't forget to have some fun.
Every so often, it's good - at least for me - to just go and shoot off the clock.
What we'll generally do with this is take a small pepper popper, rig it so it won't fall, and load 3 or 4 magazines. Start shooting at 25 yds, and walk, run, etc. toward the popper. Don't go in a straight line; zig zag, back up, etc. Sometimes we'll set up 4 or 5 barrels as mandatory-use cover for this.
This has kinda turned it a drills thread; I'll also post this in the appropriate thread.
spamsammich
07-05-11, 10:33
Thanks again for all the replies.
@uwe1
I'm not positive I'm following you here. Once the trigger breaks it is all the way back. At that point I'm not pressing hard but just holding.
IOW I'm trying to be slow and deliberate to be certain the foundation is there. I hold the trigger back as part of follow through. It's the last step. Some times I mentally review the shot and decide to lower the barrel to the bench at which time I release the trigger. I suppose I should stop doing that and release the trigger while the sights are still aligned on target.
...
Yes, please break this habit immediately. I spent a lot of time last time trying to get my shooting partner to stop checking his hits between trigger pulls. You should be able to track the sights through the recoil motion or at least see where they end up and get them back on target immediately. The habit of lowering the may form a training scar that gives the bad guy a chance to shoot back. My buddy's training scar ran so deep that he didn't even know he was dipping the gun and looking for his hits. After a while you'll be able to call your shots and know you hit without having to dip the barrel down to look.
Yes, please break this habit immediately. I spent a lot of time last time trying to get my shooting partner to stop checking his hits between trigger pulls. You should be able to track the sights through the recoil motion or at least see where they end up and get them back on target immediately. The habit of lowering the may form a training scar that gives the bad guy a chance to shoot back. My buddy's training scar ran so deep that he didn't even know he was dipping the gun and looking for his hits. After a while you'll be able to call your shots and know you hit without having to dip the barrel down to look.
Agreed, every string of fire I shoot, I end it with a sight picture on target and a prepped trigger ready to fire again.
The shot timer stops when you fired your last shot...you can take all day to top off, scan, etc.
Always be ready to shoot again, IMO.
I'm not always able to rest "in recoil", but I'm always reset before my sights are settled back in again. As the sights are leveling out, the slack after the reset comes back out and I hold there until I decide to shoot again or abort the shot.
spamsammich
07-05-11, 11:12
Agreed, every string of fire I shoot, I end it with a sight picture on target and a prepped trigger ready to fire again.
The shot timer stops when you fired your last shot...you can take all day to top off, scan, etc.
Always be ready to shoot again, IMO.
I'm not always able to rest "in recoil", but I'm always reset before my sights are settled back in again. As the sights are leveling out, the slack after the reset comes back out and I hold there until I decide to shoot again or abort the shot.
Removing the slack from the trigger pull immediately after the initial recoil, as the sights are coming back down on target is how I've been taught to prep the trigger.
Yes, please break this habit immediately. I spent a lot of time last time trying to get my shooting partner to stop checking his hits between trigger pulls. You should be able to track the sights through the recoil motion or at least see where they end up and get them back on target immediately.
Ok, I can break this one.
I can't say I can track the sights through the entire shot. It's more like a light switch
1. On - sights aligned
2. Bang - switch flipped to Off
3. Switch flipped back to ON and sights are usually pretty well alligned.
So it's like someone flips a light switch really fast. Are you saying you can follow the muzzle going up then back down. You actually see and follow the entire recoil?
Just so you know, the 2.5-3 inch group requirement comes from Delta. Apparently they have learned that under stress, all groups double in size. So if you are a 6" group shooter then you are going to shoot 12" groups in a fight (or worse). C4
My favorite quote about this fact above comes from my father (a Vietnam vet.), who says, "You're only half as good in a gunfight, boys, as your best day on the range."
Ok, I can break this one.
I can't say I can track the sights through the entire shot. It's more like a light switch
1. On - sights aligned
2. Bang - switch flipped to Off
3. Switch flipped back to ON and sights are usually pretty well alligned.
So it's like someone flips a light switch really fast. Are you saying you can follow the muzzle going up then back down. You actually see and follow the entire recoil?
Many accomplished competetive shooters can watch the front sight lift and settle through the recoil cycle...I'm not one of them. I can usually see it start to move/lift, but then I usually loose it until it is all but leveled out again.
It's not a critical to being "good" or not, but if you're eyes work well enough and you can do it, it probably doesn't hurt.
I imagine it's a lot easier to track a bright green FO front sight on a Sig X5 than a black target sight on Glock 19. Slide speed, both eyes open versus one eye open, contrast of sights against environment, will make it easier or harder to see it move through the recoil pattern.
About holding the trigger back...
I noticed that if I developed a habit to hold the trigger to the rear, I would sometimes squeeze harder with my index finger, causing the muzzle to dip.
Now, after the shot breaks, I try to immediately let off the trigger to the reset point, which for me, has helped to reduce that hard trigger squeeze.
On some strings of fire, I can track the sights through the entire cycle, but this varies. I couldn't track it not too long ago because I realized that I would close my eyes right at the "bang". I've gotten better at that, but still have a lot of work to do.
Well guys I got those dummy rounds and they are quite an eye opener.
I shot maybe 150 rounds today and it was amazing what I was seeing. Rather than a bang and regather the sights, it was like watching a movie. Every time, I thought...oh ok, that's why they go over there, or that's why they go down there.
Anyway I had very few really bad strays, but still have a lot to eliminate. Generally speaking I'm down to about 4" circles. This target is one of the better ones. Those 4 low shots I could actually tell what I was doing. I really feel better about this now. I honestly think if I spend a lot of time with these dummy rounds I can get the groups to shrink. Anyway, it may not look great but I can see light at the end of the tunnel
https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=9057&stc=1&d=1310676140
arizonaranchman
07-22-11, 14:42
Keep it simple. Train as much as you are able and with time you'll cut the group sizes down. But realistically if you can put all your rounds onto a 8" or 10" paper plate at whatever ranges you anticipate working at then you're good to go for self defense purposes. Don't get all hung up on trying to shoot a 2" or 3" group at a man who's 10' away charging you with a knife or shooting at you. Fill him with holes until he stops his aggressive attack. Don't quit shooting until he stops. If you can routinely put your rounds on the pie plate in the center of a guy's chest and you can do it fast then you'll be doing fine for starters. Once you've gotten to that level then challenge yourself with increasingly smaller targets and faster and faster speeds until perhaps a coffee saucer is your goal.
Handguns regardless of caliber are poor stoppers so multiple hits are nearly always required. Center of mass as a point of aim is generally your best choice in self defense shooting. Focus heavily on point shooting also - with the gun up at/near eye level or mid-level where you can see it in your peripheral vision but yet are still focused on the bad guy and not your gun. You need to see HIM and what he's doing. In countless cases LE's who've been in close quarters gunfights nearly never remember consciously taking their eyes OFF the bad guy to look at their sights. It's nearly impossible to do in reality and against your natural survival instinct to take your eyes off of a threat that's just a few feet away from you to look at something else.
Point shooting is EXTREMELY effective at 3 to 5 yards and even to 7 yards with training. But it does take training and repetition. I strongly recommend you get a quality Airsoft pistol as similar to your's as possible. This will enable you to fire thousands of rounds point shooting for just a few dollars. You can do it in your back yard or basement. The Airsoft pellets can easily be seen hitting the target so you get immediate feedback as to where you're at. You can build up speed until you're literally firing 4 to 5 rounds per second and putting 100% of those rounds center mass even while you're moving. Again this is close quarters/room-sized ranges, but that's what 90+% of shootings involve anyway.
My agency trains in just this way and it's amazing how fast and accurate you can be point shooting if you train. With P226's we put 4 to 5 rounds per second on center mass.
This is not to discount proper marksmanship skills and accuracy, but you have to remember that you don't have time to square up and take a careful aim at a dirtbag who's blazing away at you from a distance of 10 feet. Get that gun on target and work that trigger as fast as you can... and MOVE dont just stand there. Moving and shooting will be your goal once you've got the basics down. Again the Airsoft makes this sort of training possible as public ranges won't allow any movement like this.
Once ranges get to beyond 7 yards or so then yes your sights and more deliberate fire discipline are necessary.
I can hit a man sized silouette at 100 yards with a 2" Chief Special. Small guns can shoot at longer distances, but it takes skill once you get past 10 yards.
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