View Full Version : Search and Assess. What's the correct way?
Scanning with your head vs. an actual 360 turn of your body after an engagement.
I have always been trained to scan with your head, you can scan the entire area (almost 360) with just your head. When you do a 360 with your body, you are giving your back to the area where the threat was and most likely where other threats are.
Just wanted some of your input on the 360 body turn.
I think it's more important to be through, and actually SEE what's around, not just LOOK at what's around.
I don't see a need to turn 360, but I made damn sure I see 360. You can see 360 without picking up your feet.
I usually revert to a scanning posture kinda like this (shooter on the far left), after I've sufficiently resolved the problem I was initially shooting at...scanning like this over both shoulders.
http://i846.photobucket.com/albums/ab25/greygroupcommunity/Vickers%203%20Day%20Advanced%20Pistol-Carbine%20June%202011/IMG_0845.jpg
Agreed that's what I was saying, You don't need to do a complete 360 with your body to know your surrounding.
In most circumstances, I think turning the head is preferable. If you've engaged a suspect, he or she is either down or has fled. You can't guarantee that the suspect won't reanimate or reappear. I'd prefer to keep my body and weapon oriented toward the known threat area rather than the unknown threat area.
If people are operating as a team, howeve, it may not be a bad idea to have one (or more) team members turn completely around for a more thorough assessment of the unknown area.
Good discussion question.
After a scan to the front at high ready, I typically go to a SUL position and scan 360 with head only. I wouldn't turn my back on what was seconds ago a deadly threat.
on a side note anyone heard of this guy?
http://www.armeddynamics.com/
Scanning with your head vs. an actual 360 turn of your body after an engagement.
I have always been trained to scan with your head, you can scan the entire area (almost 360) with just your head. When you do a 360 with your body, you are giving your back to the area where the threat was and most likely where other threats are.
Just wanted some of your input on the 360 body turn.
PLEASE don't do a 360 turn on the range...
In all seriousness, I don't know about a 360 turn. Assuming you are advancing on the threat, you have likely already cleared your immediate rear.
In dynamic rapidly evolving situations, there are few absolutes. There are just to many variables. That's why they call it problem solving.
I scan with as little as I can which is the eyes, head, and maybe some shoulder shifting. That being said that is how I was originally taught in martial arts so didn't consider anything else, also with my range of motion I easily go beyond just seeing what is directly behind me looking one direction (if I scan to the right I can scan all the way to my back left, likewise if I scan left I go past behind and see my back right, so scanning right I see to 7 o'clock and left I go to 5 o'clock basically) so I don't have many issues seeing things 360 doing just the eyes and head so I might be more accepting.
NCPatrolAR
07-03-11, 23:07
on a side note anyone heard of this guy?
http://www.armeddynamics.com/
No; but his resume should give a good indicator as to what he teaches.
The "turn in a circle" 360 degree scan is something that Tactical Response was teaching as recently as 2009 and if the guy you linked to is teaching it; then that's where he got it.
After a scan to the front at high ready, I typically go to a SUL position and scan 360 with head only. I wouldn't turn my back on what was seconds ago a deadly threat.
I like scanning to the rear in a very high ready. I personally don't like how easy it is to jam the gun up in Sul (retention wise). If I'm turning and scanning because I'm not sure yet of what's around me, I don't like stacking my hands and not being able to protect myself from high-line strikes.
That's one reason why I'm a bigger fan of the high ready. Elevate the muzzle as required for the situation to not sweep others, but you can still keep that gun up close to your line of sight and keep your arms up high to protect you.
YMMV.
The only way I've been taught how to do it is to bring the pistol in tight to your body (chest), muzzle still pointed at where the threat was in a "combat"/shooting grip and look over both shoulders, which seems logical to me. I don't think turning 360 degrees is a good idea at all, though I have not researched the reasoning or the benefits of doing it.
misanthropist
07-06-11, 02:44
My personal approach is to simply make a conscious effort to have a good look around at everything that is going on in my area.
I don't worry so much about what technique I use to turn around...instead I ask myself questions like, "how many people are there behind the line right now?" or "what kind of hits did the guys just make on the lanes two or three or four over from me? How many people are on the line? Is anyone moving right now, or are all the shooters standing still?" That kind of thing.
I think a lot of people "scan". I'm not interested in "scanning" with the quotation marks attached. I want to actually scan the area and come up with enough information that if someone asked me what I was seeing, I could tell them something useful.
The important thing, as far as I'm concerned, is to be highly aware. The scan move is just an approximation. Keeping your brain engaged is the critical part (and often the aspect that gets ignored on the range in my experience).
Failure2Stop
07-06-11, 06:43
From an older thread:
Back to topic-
When it comes to the "Scan" phase, eyes-muzzle-target just doesn't pan out. It takes far too many assumptions as reality.
At the end of the day, the dude laying on the ground was trying to enact grevious bodily harm on someone, probably you. I am in no rush to impede my ability to deliver a second dose of lead-therapy should he not yet be completely incapacitated. Keep in mind that even destruction of the heart may not cause physiological incapacitation for upwards of 15 seconds, and a non-penetrating strike to the head or CNS can have the threat conscious in short order. The incidence of pistol shots causing permanent incapacitation is way below 100%. What this means is that there is a very high probability of the dude you shot to still be able to enact his will even if he isn't standing up (news flash- people can still pull a trigger when laying down) and can remain a lethal and grave threat at close range even when failing to aim.
Just somethin to ruminate over.
There are lots of ways to skin the potato, and circumstance may push you into different concepts and techniques.
Conceptually-
1- Point your gun where it is the most advantageous for you in the orientation that is most advantageous to the situation.
2- Look for and indentify people/things that can further hurt or help you and interact with them accordingly.
3- Make sure you are in a position that is to your advantage if possible.
4- Make sure you are ready to deal with more threats.
5- Do not be in a rush to get the gun out of the fight or assume that everyone on the other side is out of the fight.
Exactly how one accomplishes these tasks and to what depth will depend on many factors:
-Are you working in a team or alone?
-What weapons are being employed?
-What optical devices do you have?
-What illumination tools do you have?
-What is your ammo loadout?
-How close is help?
-What is the threat composition and density?
-What is your purpose?
The scan/search and assess/post-shot sequence will be different for a PSG pulling his principal out of an ambush than it will be for Rangers clearing a compound. The weight of necessity of the 5 concepts balanced against situational factors will determine what method will be most applicable and efficient.
Post above make great points.
Gabe Suarez advocates 360 degree scan so that if a bad guy does appear where you're scanning, your body is already oriented to the direction of the bad guy. So rather than turning your whole body to deal with the threat, bring up sights. Much more efficient. He does credit this technique for saving his life a few times.
I however, don't nescessarily turn my whole body into the direction on searching. I keep the gun (rifle or pistol) high port in the direction im scanning.
I don't know about turning the whole body being better for the above reasons. Moving whole body every time is less efficient then minimal head and upper body turning as it involves more energy and time where if there is a threat you will be slower to pick up on them which negates advantage of being oriented in that direction since you can snap to a target pretty quickly when identified. Also is the previously mentioned fact that the direction your facing is likely still the most dangerous so why slowly turn your back on it.
Gabe Suarez advocates 360 degree scan so that if a bad guy does appear where you're scanning, your body is already oriented to the direction of the bad guy. So rather than turning your whole body to deal with the threat, bring up sights. Much more efficient. He does credit this technique for saving his life a few times.
Probably in the shower at county.
theblackknight
07-12-11, 16:10
on a side note anyone heard of this guy?
http://www.armeddynamics.com/
He's taken a shitload of tactical response classes. Thats all I need to know.
Littlelebowski
07-12-11, 16:45
Probably in the shower at county.
Nice burn :D
Regardless of how you choose to scan for additional threats, do you guys stand still while you're doing it?
He's taken a shitload of tactical response classes. Thats all I need to know.
Damnit. I live in Philly, too. I was hoping to find someone nearby who teaches classes.
Guess I'll have to keep looking.
Damnit. I live in Philly, too. I was hoping to find someone nearby who teaches classes.
Guess I'll have to keep looking.
Sayoc Tactical Group runs classes from time to time in the Poconos. They're more well known for the edged weapon work within the .mil community, but they're firearms classes are good to go, too.
Lots of opportunities in Pittsburg, if you're willing to travel.
Littlelebowski
07-13-11, 09:54
Damnit. I live in Philly, too. I was hoping to find someone nearby who teaches classes.
Guess I'll have to keep looking.
This guy is somewhat near you (http://www.lowspeed-highdrag.com/). Vickers instructor.
There are other ways to get a 360 degree view of the battlefield without doing a full 360 degree turn...
I guess its a rule nowadays that badguys can only attack from 180 degrees and in :sarcastic:
There are other ways to get a 360 degree view of the battlefield without doing a full 360 degree turn...
I guess its a rule nowadays that badguys can only attack from 180 degrees and in :sarcastic:
Do you have neck/back problems?
I can scan 360 while seated in a chair (so long as it has a low enough back to it).
Littlelebowski
07-13-11, 21:14
There are other ways to get a 360 degree view of the battlefield without doing a full 360 degree turn...
I guess its a rule nowadays that badguys can only attack from 180 degrees and in :sarcastic:
Yes, it's a rule here. It's not safety related or anything.
Gabe Suarez advocates 360 degree scan so that if a bad guy does appear where you're scanning, your body is already oriented to the direction of the bad guy. So rather than turning your whole body to deal with the threat, bring up sights. Much more efficient. He does credit this technique for saving his life a few times.
Dude, please tell me your joking?
Dude, please tell me your joking?
I'm certainly not a comedian...
I have been trained both ways, and have adopted a hybrid method based on some of my real life experiences (both LE and from my military time)
After firing (or detaining a suspect at gunpoint) I lower my weapon enough that I can see whatever target I just engaged in full. I do a detailed scan of whatever I deem to be my most likely danger area, which at the range is where all the targets are, by turning my body and weapon simultaneously keeping GENERALLY eyes, muzzle(ish), (potential)target.
While keeping my weapon in hand and pointed in a safe direction I then scan a full 360; depending on what gear I am wearing, and what sort of objects are around me, and where any partners I may have are, I may move my whole body or I may just turn my head.
Reading that over, it sounds kind of clunky - but when practiced is very smooth.
Part of my reason for doing it in this manner is that in real shoot situations it has always been a very fluid situation, and as I scanned I observed things that made me have to change in mid scan.
NOTE:
As I was visualizing going through these procedures on the range it made me realize that I had never really quantified exactly HOW I do a search and assess after a critical incident - I just had naturally adopted this hybrid method.
Also, I realized that when on the range I dont think I have ever, not even once, used a light to better illuminate a target I have just engaged. I think I may start trying to incorporate that.
Great thread.
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