View Full Version : Is 3x magnifier the standard?
I picked up an Aimpoint PRO and am trying to figure out what magnifier I might eventually get. I see they have their 3x one but that they also come in greater sizes. Is 3x standard or is there not really a standard? The most I'd envision shooting might be 400 yards. I'm relatively new to the world of optics so any help would be great. Thanks!
Off brands such as Primary Arms offer them in 5x and 8x also.
Magic_Salad0892
07-02-11, 01:59
You don't need any magnification to do hits out to 400m, you should be fine.
Magnifiers + RDS sucks anyway.
Unless you're looking to make those hits at speed, then magnification will require less training to do so.
You don't need any magnification to do hits out to 400m, you should be fine.
Magnifiers + RDS sucks anyway.
Unless you're looking to make those hits at speed, then magnification will require less training to do so.
Wow, really? Can you even see much of the target at 400 without magnification? So when would you need it then?
glockshooter
07-02-11, 07:46
You don't need any magnification to do hits out to 400m, you should be fine.
Magnifiers + RDS sucks anyway.
Unless you're looking to make those hits at speed, then magnification will require less training to do so.
Lets clarify. Apparently Magic doesn't need magnification to hit targets at distance and doesn't care for magnifiers. I dont know what your uses are but having magnificaton always help hit targets at longer distances. I understand his point that you dont have to have magnification to shoot 400 yards but it makes it easier and quicker. Which is usually the point of shooting so make the choice on what fills your needs.
Matt
Crow Hunter
07-02-11, 10:25
Wow, really? Can you even see much of the target at 400 without magnification? So when would you need it then?
Depends on what size your target is and how precise you want to be.
The disadvantage of a magnifier TO ME, is it makes the rifle heavier and more cumbersome without very much benefit. Do you know your holds for shooting a target at 400 yards with only a floating dot for reference? I don't. It absolutely can be done. I can walk shots out to 400 easily. But an optic that has magnification AND either turrets and/or reference marks (mils/bdc/something to reference to) will make it alot easier. The magnifier helps more on seeing small targets or making identification easier. It WON'T make you a better shot.
I have a magnifier 3x for my Aimpoint. I am now just waiting for my brother to pay me for it before I give it to him. I have shot my 6920 at 525 or so yards, with the magnifier and without. It didn't help at all with hitting the target, it did help with picking the target out from the background clutter. In actual shooting, it hindered me. I was shooting from rice paddy prone and kneeling. The recoil, though small, was enough to push me back slightly and I would lose track of the target with the magnifier. I couldn't see where my shots were landing and correct for it, I had to have my brother spot for me. With just the red dot alone, I could fire, see where the bullet hit and correct for it. Not to mention, I got popped in the eye a couple of times by the magnifier because of the relatively short eye relief when I climbed the stock too far.
If you are really wanting to shoot accurately at 400 yards all the time, you really need a different optic. If you are just going to be taking pot shots at targets but are planning on using your optic for 0-100 yards most of the time stay with the RDS.
If you are planning on spending all your time with your rifle laying across shooting bags squeezing of 1 shot a minute at a target 100 yards away trying to get less than a 1" group, you REALLY have the wrong optic. You will be frustrated more than happy with it.
Remember, choose your optic for what YOU will be using it for. Not what the military, police or competition shooters use it for. You will be much happier with your purchase.
Rolex_John
07-02-11, 18:38
I have the same optic. In my area, I don't know of a facility with over 100 yards available. But what optic is recommended for over 100 yards?
Depends on what size your target is and how precise you want to be.
The disadvantage of a magnifier TO ME, is it makes the rifle heavier and more cumbersome without very much benefit. Do you know your holds for shooting a target at 400 yards with only a floating dot for reference? I don't. It absolutely can be done. I can walk shots out to 400 easily. But an optic that has magnification AND either turrets and/or reference marks (mils/bdc/something to reference to) will make it alot easier. The magnifier helps more on seeing small targets or making identification easier. It WON'T make you a better shot.
I have a magnifier 3x for my Aimpoint. I am now just waiting for my brother to pay me for it before I give it to him. I have shot my 6920 at 525 or so yards, with the magnifier and without. It didn't help at all with hitting the target, it did help with picking the target out from the background clutter. In actual shooting, it hindered me. I was shooting from rice paddy prone and kneeling. The recoil, though small, was enough to push me back slightly and I would lose track of the target with the magnifier. I couldn't see where my shots were landing and correct for it, I had to have my brother spot for me. With just the red dot alone, I could fire, see where the bullet hit and correct for it. Not to mention, I got popped in the eye a couple of times by the magnifier because of the relatively short eye relief when I climbed the stock too far.
If you are really wanting to shoot accurately at 400 yards all the time, you really need a different optic. If you are just going to be taking pot shots at targets but are planning on using your optic for 0-100 yards most of the time stay with the RDS.
If you are planning on spending all your time with your rifle laying across shooting bags squeezing of 1 shot a minute at a target 100 yards away trying to get less than a 1" group, you REALLY have the wrong optic. You will be frustrated more than happy with it.
Remember, choose your optic for what YOU will be using it for. Not what the military, police or competition shooters use it for. You will be much happier with your purchase.
Thanks for the reply. I'm not going into combat with my rifle and don't envision needing to pick people off at 200 yards to save my life, nor do I need 1" groups at 100 yards (nice as it would be). I might take some courses next year where we shoot out farther, but most of my stuff is likely to be within 100 yards.
My first time out today with the rifle I was getting ~2.5" radius at 50 yards and maybe 6" radius at 100 yards with the Aimpoint pro. I could vaguely see what I was aiming at on the target (some 3" circles on an 8.6x11" piece of paper at 100 yards) but don't think I could have been very precise with them. Hopefully with practice things will come along though.
Overall though, I wasn't sure just how much close a 3x magnifier would bring things. I guess shooting at 100 yards with a magnifier would give a similar sight picture as a target at 33 yards without a magnifier?
I think magnifiers are neat to have. Definitely get an off brand though. Neat as they may be they aren't worth 4 or 500 clams.
sent via Android 3.1
Crow Hunter
07-03-11, 08:45
Overall though, I wasn't sure just how much close a 3x magnifier would bring things. I guess shooting at 100 yards with a magnifier would give a similar sight picture as a target at 33 yards without a magnifier?
Yep! (That and it makes the dot brighter, I usually had to turn it down 1 or 2 notches) :D
Again, if your PRIMARY usage is going to be taking to the range and laying it on a bench shooting at 100 yards. You aren't using the RDS for it's intended usage. You will be MUCH happier with a magnified optic of some sort. And there is nothing wrong with that at all.
If you are planning on using this rifle for self defense and are planning on taking courses with it, then stick with the RDS just don't expect it to be a bench rest optic and don't try to make it one. You will spend more money and still not get what you expect.
Crow Hunter
07-03-11, 09:04
I have the same optic. In my area, I don't know of a facility with over 100 yards available. But what optic is recommended for over 100 yards?
I am no expert but I can relay my experience.
A good question to ask yourself:
What are you wanting to shoot at over 100 yards and how precise do you want to be and how much farther than 100 yards do you want to shoot?
I don't really have much experience shooting that far away personally, so I would defer to others.
I have made shots on targets at 525 yards away with my Aimpoint M4s, but I had to walk them in (They weren't 1st round hits). I have read of others doing much better than that.
Think of a RDS as a "single plane" iron sight. If you could hit it with iron sights, you can hit it with a RDS.
As an aside, if you only have 100 yard ranges around, and I assume that you are restricted to shooting only at these ranges, why would you be interested in an optic for shooting at greater than 100 yards? No insult intended at all.
But to your question. If I were going to be shooting at more than 100 yards at targets that were smaller than a human torso, I would choose a variable optic. (it is what I have setup on my Colt 6724). If I were going to be shooting at human torso targets (which assumes "combat" related), I would choose an ACOG.
Again, I am NOT A SME, altough I have owned all the above. A good search looking at comments from the SMEs would glean LOTS more useful information.
ETA: Particularly posts from JSantoro. He has forgotten more about optics and their usage, than I will ever know.
BearClaw Bigsby
07-04-11, 08:39
I think magnifiers are neat to have. Definitely get an off brand though. Neat as they may be they aren't worth 4 or 500 clams.
sent via Android 3.1
wrong, get a Mako magnifier and you may end up only enjoying one day at the range with it. I have found that you get what you pay for, especially when it comes to optics.
If you want a 3x, get an Aimpoint or an Eotech. I prefer the Aimpoint 3x with the Larue FTS mount.
wrong, get a Mako magnifier and you may end up only enjoying one day at the range with it. I have found that you get what you pay for, especially when it comes to optics.
If you want a 3x, get an Aimpoint or an Eotech. I prefer the Aimpoint 3x with the Larue FTS mount.
The magnifier has no effect on point of impact. I can't see any reason to spend $500 on one. All it does is magnify the target.
You don't need any magnification to do hits out to 400m, you should be fine.
Magnifiers + RDS sucks anyway.
Unless you're looking to make those hits at speed, then magnification will require less training to do so.
not for targets silhouetted in the open. but if I was going to be shooting at something in cover, the magnifier would allow me to determine what the "shape" I was shooting at was, or if it was behind a bush or cover.
the arguments about shooting at distance with a magnified RDS not being more accurate due to not having a ranging reticle seem valid, however, I don't see that having a better view will be necessarily worse...
I have one magnifier (Eotech 3xFTS) and I switch it between all of my rifles. I virtually never keep it on the rifle, only using it at the range for sighting in or occasionally at the 600-yard ARF pop-up when we have to qualify twice a year, but I find it useful enough to justify the cost even though I don't envision much other shooting beyond 50 yards.
wrong, get a Mako magnifier and you may end up only enjoying one day at the range with it. I have found that you get what you pay for, especially when it comes to optics.
If you want a 3x, get an Aimpoint or an Eotech. I prefer the Aimpoint 3x with the Larue FTS mount.
The magnifier has no effect on point of impact. I can't see any reason to spend $500 on one. All it does is magnify the target.
Perhaps he meant the the Mako QUALITY wasn't there and it fell apart after 1 range session, something that happens more often than not when you buy cheap knockoffs instead of something that is proven.
BearClaw Bigsby
07-04-11, 17:15
Perhaps he meant the the Mako QUALITY wasn't there and it fell apart after 1 range session, something that happens more often than not when you buy cheap knockoffs instead of something that is proven.
yes that is exactly what I meant.
PRGGodfather
07-04-11, 17:35
FWIW, I run Aimpoint 3x magnifiers behind my T1 RDSs, but I don't use the magnifier for increased accuracy -- as the red dot is sufficient for accuracy. As a proponent for keeping both eyes open, I prefer the non-magnified RDS for virtually everything.
The magnifier doesn't help me with accuracy, but it definitely enhances my ability to identify my target.
Having attended multiple courses, I found with realistic targets beyond 50-60 yards or so, it became very difficult for me to see what was in the target's hand -- e.g., a gun, knife, or even a hairbrush.
Flipping the 3x into position gave me the ability to identify what was happening with reasonable certainty, even up to 100 yards away, if necessary.
Additionally, several months ago, while responding to a possible bank takeover in the real world, I found myself in the forward position, not necessarily by design, but because my order of arrival put me in that spot.
Having taken a static position some 40 yards from the front of the bank, the use of my 3x magnifier enhanced my ability to look deeper into the interior of the bank, without having to resort to the use of binoculars. This allowed me to provide additional units real time intelligence as to what was (or wasn't) happening inside.
I certainly cannot and would not speak for anyone else, but IMHO, the 3x magnifier in flip mount has worked for what I need it to do, and for most of the scenarios I have encountered. The additional weight was worth the capability.
YMMV.
Alaskapopo
07-07-11, 00:25
You don't need any magnification to do hits out to 400m, you should be fine.
Magnifiers + RDS sucks anyway.
Unless you're looking to make those hits at speed, then magnification will require less training to do so.
Umm hits on what. Barn doors sure. Full sized targets not using cover or firing back sure a RDS will work. But in real life a RDS is pretty much a 200 yard sight with 300 being max. Trying hitting a head sized target of a enemy firing at you from cover with a RDS using a 2 moa or a 4 moa dot. Good luck with that!
Pat
Thanks for the replies everyone. So does 3x seem to be enough for most people's needs? As opposed to 5 or 10x?
Crow Hunter
07-07-11, 19:18
Thanks for the replies everyone. So does 3x seem to be enough for most people's needs? As opposed to 5 or 10x?
You will need to answer this question for yourself.:D
Is your target appearing 3x closer going to give YOU what YOU need?
You should pick your optic based on what you need, not on what I (a mechanical engineer who just hunts) or Pat (A police officer in Alaska who also does 3-gun) or anyone else chooses.
Other than maybe picking someone who shoots the way you do and trying their optics combo 1st.
polymorpheous
07-07-11, 19:40
MHO...
Find yourself a surplus Hendsoldt 2X for around $20- $30.
Good glass for a good price.
As usual, PRGGodfather hit the proverbial nail on the head. Any time I am using an RDS equipped carbine primarily for outdoor work, it will have an Aimpoint 3x magnifier in a flip mount (LaRue LT649) so I can better identify targets and determine if they are a threat or not. As I mentioned in the AAR, during the recent Pat McNamara class here in California, Mac commented that for carbine use he prefers an RDS with a flip up 3x magnifier to any other optic, including the S&B 1-4x Short Dot that his former unit pioneered. When guys with his level of combat and training experience speak, I tend to listen...
Thanks for the replies everyone. So does 3x seem to be enough for most people's needs? As opposed to 5 or 10x?
3x seems to be the sweet spot. I got one of the 5x as a "proof of concept" and I find it to be more of a compromise than the 3x. I imagine 8x would be even worse...
also, remember, there is no reticle, only a dot so if you anticipate being able to use this combination like a "scope", I don't think the utility is completely there.
as was mentioned it's much better used for identification of the target...
.
I've seen several people mention using the Aimpoint 3X Multiplier with the Larue Pivot Mount (http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetactical/Detail.bok?no=511).
Has anyone tried the ADM Swing-Off Mount (http://www.americandefensemanufacturing.com/browse/category/mounts/opticmounts/magnifiermounts/)?
Just wondering how ADM compares.
.
Magic_Salad0892
07-08-11, 04:44
Umm hits on what. Barn doors sure. Full sized targets not using cover or firing back sure a RDS will work. But in real life a RDS is pretty much a 200 yard sight with 300 being max. Trying hitting a head sized target of a enemy firing at you from cover with a RDS using a 2 moa or a 4 moa dot. Good luck with that!
Pat
You (and others) provided good points, but I still interpret it as the wrong, or less than ideal tool for the job.
I'd rather have a real magnified sight, like an ACOG, NXS, or Short Dot.
It's easier (in my little experience - 4-5k rounds - I had one on loan) to learn to shoot close, and fast with magnification, than it is to learn how to shoot far with a magnifier shoehorned into a CQB sight.
When I was using the magnifier, it made the Aimpoint's dot bloom to the point it would cover the most of if not the entire target, and in lower light visibility was little to none.
I should add, that I didn't mean to come off as though I didn't need magnification at all, or that I was a better shooter than I am, I was merely implying that unless he was expecting to be shot at from 400m away, that a magnifier wasn't needed, or a better tool was needed.
I should have gone back and edited that post. Sorry, about that.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.