View Full Version : My carrier key has good staking but wiggles ?
Compared to most here I'm a newb. I've got about 300 rounds on this Spikes upper. I can't figure out how to post pics as I'm using my phone here so you'll have to take my word on things that it is properly staked.
Last night I noticed some play though in the carier key. I don't know how to measure the amount of play to give you an exact idea of the amount, all I can say is it is tiny. So my newb question is this normal at all ? It seems like the screws weren't tightened all the way before it was staked. I don't see the screws being able to back out either so just shoot it or send it back to Spikes.
There should be NO PLAY in the key at all.
Staking is designed to keep it locked in place, the idea is to have it locked correctly in place, and it doesn't sound like yours is.
jonconsiglio
07-04-11, 10:14
You need to fix or replace it. You can either get new screws then torque and stake it correctly or call the manufacturer.
I figured as much but thought it wouldn't hurt to ask. I was gooing to shoot it today but I guess not. I'll be calling Spikes first thing Tuesday. Thannks. Happy 4th
4thPointOfContact
07-04-11, 10:38
I'm sure that if they could manufacture a one-piece bolt carrier with the carrier key as an integral part they would do so. Unfortunately it's not economically feasible.
The screws and staking are the next best alternative to being a single piece.
bleaman225
07-04-11, 11:07
I don't think it's physically possible to make it one piece.
The current design is perfectly fine as long as the installation is done properly.
If Spike's doesn't repair it, you can do it yourself. Remove the screws, clean the area underneath the key and carrier and then re-torque the screws. You can then stake it with a MOACKS or the improvised field method with a sharp punch. Some people like to apply a high temp thread locker as well.
Compared to most here I'm a newb. I've got about 300 rounds on this Spikes upper. I can't figure out how to post pics as I'm using my phone here so you'll have to take my word on things that it is properly staked.
Last night I noticed some play though in the carier key. I don't know how to measure the amount of play to give you an exact idea of the amount, all I can say is it is tiny. So my newb question is this normal at all ? It seems like the screws weren't tightened all the way before it was staked. I don't see the screws being able to back out either so just shoot it or send it back to Spikes.
jonconsiglio
07-04-11, 14:23
Don't quote me but doesn't milspec call for a thread locker between the carrier and gas key?
Also, I've heard it mentioned that you should use new screws once they've been torqued on the gas key, though I may be mistaken there.
Like others have said, there should be zero play in it. If it's staked properly and still moves, I'd be curious if the wrong head size was used on the screws.
Either way, replace with new screws.
Not that I am aware of nor could I find it in the TM. It states that you should replace the screws and carrier key (page 172). However, if it came loose that tells me that it wasn't torqued properly to begin with since he has stated it appears staked. So I would reuse them.
In the field I have tightened and reused the screws and then staked and the carrier was find. YMMV.
Don't quote me but doesn't milspec call for a thread locker between the carrier and gas key?
Also, I've heard it mentioned that you should use new screws once they've been torqued on the gas key, though I may be mistaken there.
jonconsiglio
07-04-11, 15:16
Not that I am aware of nor could I find it in the TM. It states that you should replace the screws and carrier key (page 172). However, if it came loose that tells me that it wasn't torqued properly to begin with since he has stated it appears staked. So I would reuse them.
In the field I have tightened and reused the screws and then staked and the carrier was find. YMMV.
Absolutey. I've tightened them once as well but then I think Grant posted about changing screws and then someone posted about the sealant between the key and carrier in the TDP though I don't believe anyone really does it, nor did I personally read that.
Thanks IG, be safe over there.
Ned Christiansen
07-04-11, 15:51
Here's a little illustration showing how you can have decent looking stakes and still the screws will come loose (left side)
http://www.louderthanwords.us/mediumfoto/picts/ulfls/04072011/14912737631.jpg
Everything, even the seemingly meaningless stuff, has a downstream effect. How could something like what kind of screws make a difference? Many are very roundy on top, and they kinda look like they're knurled, but it's actually very shallow and/or doesn't go to the top of the screw head. The military print actually calls these features out; on commercial screws, the knurling pattern is not an industry standard, it is as much each individual manufacturer's brand recognition feature and styling preference as much as anything.
So-- good staking and meets-industry-standards screw, but rounded head and no knurling there, may result in no actual metal to metal contact. Screws come loose.... they can't get out of the key but lift the key with them as they turn out. This is why I think the counter stake is important, and it can be done to a totally adequate level with a centerpunch or better, an automatic centerpuch.
Don't quote me but doesn't milspec call for a thread locker between the carrier and gas key?
Not that I am aware of nor could I find it in the TM
Yup.
The only TM/FM/whatever M instances I've seen regarding thread locker is when working with a rifle style stock where the stuff is present on the threads of the receiver extension screw that passes through the upper buttstock hole. Lower screw that retains the sling attachment is bare.
Gas key is staked, carbine receiver extension nut is staked, pistol grip has star type lock washer, muzzle device is crush or peel washers, old A1 muzzle device is split lock washer and barrel nut is moly grease.
MBUIS and other rail attached devices that have a set screw affixment come with a dot of locker on the threads but that's pretty much the only other instance beyond the rifle stock screw that it is mentioned or applied.
Spikes is rumored to have decent customer service and its waranteed for life so I'm just going to send it back, give them one more chance and chalk this up too bad luck as I've never heard this happening with any other people's keys.
If it happens again I will sell the entire rifle and move on to another brand.
Some edjucational stuff in this thread though and its why this forum is so valuable. I sold my WASR's last week and got a converted Saiga so if I have to sell this and pick up a DD or LMT so be it.
I'm only interested in rifles I can trust. i
Whootsinator
07-04-11, 21:09
I thought I remembered reading something about the thread locker in between the key and the carrier as well... I'm not going to say whether it's true or not, that would be way out of my lane, but it may be coming from here.
http://www.youngmanufacturing.net/stakekeys.php
Young claims the TDP (or I assume they're talking about the TDP, since it's not actually named) calls for a gasket sealer between the two surfaces, but they use thread locker instead.
I'll go with properly torqued and staked, myself...
Heavy Metal
07-04-11, 21:12
They are talking about permatex on the interface between the Key and Bolt Carrier, not the screw threads.
You want to lock the heads of the screws, not the shafts. I would want to be able to remove them without shearing the heads off. I would go for properly staked and avoid the thread locker.
Black Jeep
07-04-11, 22:25
I used an auto punch on a Del-Ton BCG that had a loose gas key (go figure). I put the BCG in my vice and then it took about five or so punches per side & screw, but after I squared it away it has been in working order.
I would love to see this in writing. I have seen hundreds of factory Colt M4's and M16A4's that were new and I have never seen Permatex used.
In addition I could find no reference in the current 9-1005-319-23&P which indictaes the use of any threadlocker on the the screws.
I thought I remembered reading something about the thread locker in between the key and the carrier as well... I'm not going to say whether it's true or not, that would be way out of my lane, but it may be coming from here.
http://www.youngmanufacturing.net/stakekeys.php
Young claims the TDP (or I assume they're talking about the TDP, since it's not actually named) calls for a gasket sealer between the two surfaces, but they use thread locker instead.
I'll go with properly torqued and staked, myself...
Another qustion I've had.... Another question answered.
Some edjucational stuff in this thread though and its why this forum is so valuable.
jonconsiglio
07-05-11, 09:00
I would love to see this in writing. I have seen hundreds of factory Colt M4's and M16A4's that were new and I have never seen Permatex used.
In addition I could find no reference in the current 9-1005-319-23&P which indictaes the use of any threadlocker on the the screws.
Ok, that explains a little more. Maybe what I read in a post came from that link.
Again, I was just curious which is why I brought it up. If I remember correctly, it was Grant that stated the screws should be replaced if retorqued. As you stated, it makes sense if they weren't torques properly in the first place there's no need to replace them.
Jonathan
Heavy Metal
07-05-11, 09:52
I would love to see this in writing. I have seen hundreds of factory Colt M4's and M16A4's that were new and I have never seen Permatex used.
In addition I could find no reference in the current 9-1005-319-23&P which indictaes the use of any threadlocker on the the screws.
IG, I actually have an old Colt Armorers Manual that recommends the use of Permetex.
Don't ask me to find it today but I will scan you the page in question when I do.
Black Jeep
07-05-11, 10:12
Honest question here...
Why would you need to replace a screw that was torqued to spec? I reuse screws/bolts on my Harley all the time that were torqued to spec and then after the maintenance are re-torqued to spec without worrying it will fall apart on me at highway speeds. If it is a hardened screw, why would it not withstand torquing it?
Now, I can see the need if the head and shoulders of the screw were misshapen as a result of the staking process, but not because it was torqued.
Ned Christiansen
07-05-11, 10:28
The Rock Island Arsenal prints I've seen did call out Permatex.
I don't doubt that there MAY be a reference somewhere, but things do change. If those screws are tightened properly and staked properly then they are not going to loosen. At least in my experience.
IG, I actually have an old Colt Armorers Manual that recommends the use of Permetex.
Don't ask me to find it today but I will scan you the page in question when I do.
Thomas M-4
07-05-11, 10:52
Honest question here...
Why would you need to replace a screw that was torqued to spec? I reuse screws/bolts on my Harley all the time that were torqued to spec and then after the maintenance are re-torqued to spec without worrying it will fall apart on me at highway speeds. If it is a hardened screw, why would it not withstand torquing it?
Now, I can see the need if the head and shoulders of the screw were misshapen as a result of the staking process, but not because it was torqued.
Torque to Yield Bolts
http://freeasestudyguides.com/a1_4.html
Let me add :
IDK if the gas key bolts are torque to yield bolts never had the need to take them apart. There may be other reasons for the recommended replacement.
I did want to show you they do have one time use bolts and what they are called. Most newer engines use torque to yield bolts for cylinder heads & crankshaft mains.
Heavy Metal
07-05-11, 10:58
I don't doubt that there MAY be a reference somewhere, but things do change. If those screws are tightened properly and staked properly then they are not going to loosen. At least in my experience.
IG, the Permetex isn't for the screws.
It is to provide a gas seal between the carrier key and the carrier.
It is do do what it is made to do, make a gasket.
Black Jeep
07-05-11, 11:07
Torque to Yield Bolts
http://freeasestudyguides.com/a1_4.html
Let me add :
IDK if the gas key bolts are torque to yield bolts never had the need to take them apart. There may be other reasons for the recommended replacement.
I did want to show you they do have one time use bolts and what they are called. Most newer engines use torque to yield bolts for cylinder heads & crankshaft mains.
I am familiar with those, but the gas key bolt doesn't look like any torque to yield bolts I have seen (doesn't mean they are not though). It seems to me they are standard hex head cap screws.
I wouldn't stress too much about reusing new screws that weren't tightened properly, but if torqued, staked and then put through many heat and cool cycles the temper can change a bit.
I'd not have faith that there wouldn't have been a bit of molecular change and wouldn't stretch the same and may even break instead of stretching under torque loading.
If properly torqued to start with, the stretch has already occured and threaded fixtures aren't noted for thier ability to spring back into shape once tension is released so you end up trying to further stretch something that had already been brought to it's limit.
A Harley engine has something that a bolt carrier and key doesn't: compressable gaskets.
Had a brainfart and I understand. But, as I said before. I have never seen it on any of the Milspec M16/M4's that I have worked on, seen or used. If you look at the carrier key and the carrier. They key sits in a "channel" on the BCG. If it is clean and smoot and you install the key, torque the screws and stake I don't see how an issue will develop. I'm not saying it can't "ever" happen. Simply that I have done exactly that and the weapon always functioned and continued to function to the best of my knowledge.
IG, the Permetex isn't for the screws.
It is to provide a gas seal between the carrier key and the carrier.
It is do do what it is made to do, make a gasket.
Here's a little illustration showing how you can have decent looking stakes and still the screws will come loose (left side) (PIC DELETED) Everything, even the seemingly meaningless stuff, has a downstream effect. How could something like what kind of screws make a difference? Many are very roundy on top, and they kinda look like they're knurled, but it's actually very shallow and/or doesn't go to the top of the screw head. The military print actually calls these features out; on commercial screws, the knurling pattern is not an industry standard, it is as much each individual manufacturer's brand recognition feature and styling preference as much as anything.
So-- good staking and meets-industry-standards screw, but rounded head and no knurling there, may result in no actual metal to metal contact. Screws come loose.... they can't get out of the key but lift the key with them as they turn out. This is why I think the counter stake is important, and it can be done to a totally adequate level with a centerpunch or better, an automatic centerpuch.
A few years ago, I held a (verified) Colt BCG in my hands that had a properly staked, but seriously loose carrier key. Such a find was quite an anomaly, but there wasn't time for pics or closer scrutiny. At the time, the owner and I figured it was a QC miss, but I wonder if the info from Ned above was at play as well.
Black Jeep
07-05-11, 14:33
I wouldn't stress too much about reusing new screws that weren't tightened properly, but if torqued, staked and then put through many heat and cool cycles the temper can change a bit.
I'd not have faith that there wouldn't have been a bit of molecular change and wouldn't stretch the same and may even break instead of stretching under torque loading.
If properly torqued to start with, the stretch has already occured and threaded fixtures aren't noted for thier ability to spring back into shape once tension is released so you end up trying to further stretch something that had already been brought to it's limit.
A Harley engine has something that a bolt carrier and key doesn't: compressable gaskets.
FWIW, I'm not worried or stressed about my gas key screws. For some reason the gear head in me is fascinated about this. I can see where that would make sense.
I referenced my Harley because it was the first thing that I, someone who's life will not likely depend on the functionality of their AR, could think of where a spec torqued bolt would have significant bearing on one's life. I reuse factory bolts for wheels, brakes, handle bars, and so forth that would directly impact my life if they failed without worry. The key difference being, none of these face the extreme changes in temperature.
Are gas key screws hardened?
Guntrician
07-05-11, 20:07
Spikes is rumored to have decent customer service and its waranteed for life so I'm just going to send it back, give them one more chance and chalk this up too bad luck as I've never heard this happening with any other people's keys.
If it happens again I will sell the entire rifle and move on to another brand.
Some edjucational stuff in this thread though and its why this forum is so valuable. I sold my WASR's last week and got a converted Saiga so if I have to sell this and pick up a DD or LMT so be it.
I'm only interested in rifles I can trust. i
Don't sweat it. They will take care of you. I have a couple spikes rifles and trust them as much as my 6920s, BCMs, etc. I can only speak for more recent production though. Don't know the quality of their older stuff.
Here's a little illustration showing how you can have decent looking stakes and still the screws will come loose (left side)
http://www.louderthanwords.us/mediumfoto/picts/ulfls/04072011/14912737631.jpg
Everything, even the seemingly meaningless stuff, has a downstream effect. How could something like what kind of screws make a difference? Many are very roundy on top, and they kinda look like they're knurled, but it's actually very shallow and/or doesn't go to the top of the screw head. The military print actually calls these features out; on commercial screws, the knurling pattern is not an industry standard, it is as much each individual manufacturer's brand recognition feature and styling preference as much as anything.
So-- good staking and meets-industry-standards screw, but rounded head and no knurling there, may result in no actual metal to metal contact. Screws come loose.... they can't get out of the key but lift the key with them as they turn out. This is why I think the counter stake is important, and it can be done to a totally adequate level with a centerpunch or better, an automatic centerpuch.
Ned, thank you for the illustration and the technical details of what I was talking about. I should've said, 'head type/size' rather than just, 'head type'. Thanks again
I've got to believe the reason it's loose is that there's a tolerance mismatch between the thread pitch on the screw and in the carrier.
The proper head size allows proper staking, but the staking is there only to lock down the already "locked down" screw, which assumes it's already properly torqued, and that is achievable only when the threads mate together. If the thread pitches are off, or the screw diameter is a bit off, no head size change is going to make enough difference.
It's kind of like ammo manufacturing/reloading, the relationship between neck tension and crimp. While crimp is good, it is no substitute for inadequate neck tension. Take care of that first and then the crimp is just added insurance. Same with the degree of staking, no amount of staking will overcome mismatched threads or scew shaft and carrier thread sizing mismatches.
Colt Manual No. CM102 CH VI
2nd Edition
6-2.2 Bolt Carrier Group
When installing the bolt carrier key, apply a thin coat of selaing compound (table 2-2, item 12, page 4) to the underside of the key, being careful not to plug the gas port. Tighten the two socket head cap screws to a torque of 35-40 lb/in (3.95 -4.52 N . m) using the torque limiting wrench (P/N 94158) as shown in figure 6-4.1. The two socket head screws shall then be staked to the key at two points using the center punch (P/N 94146) as shown n Figure 6-4.2 below.
Sorry I am not drawing the pictures.
Table 2-2 - CONSUMABLE SUPPLIES REQUIREMENTS
Item No.
....snip
12........Sealing Compound, "Permatex No. 3D Aviation Form-A-Gasket" (Permatex Co, Brooklyn, N.Y.)
If this were me and it was my rifle I would toss your loose one in the trash. There is too much risk involved. How long did this go with it loose? Its possible the threads are weakened and out of spec by now. I know when bolts are loose and rattling around in any form threads tend to get messed up. Its just the nature of physics and metal wear.
A 100 dollar bolt is a lot cheaper than a plastic surgeon or an undertaker.
Honest question here...
Why would you need to replace a screw that was torqued to spec? I reuse screws/bolts on my Harley all the time that were torqued to spec and then after the maintenance are re-torqued to spec without worrying it will fall apart on me at highway speeds. If it is a hardened screw, why would it not withstand torquing it?
Now, I can see the need if the head and shoulders of the screw were misshapen as a result of the staking process, but not because it was torqued.
This depends on the bolt itself. If it is a stretch bolt then it must be replaced. Otherwise I would hope that the manufacturer chose a bolt of significant hardness to hold up to being torqued more than once.
Robb Jensen
07-05-11, 23:01
If the screw heads are tight and staking is good and the key still wiggles either 1, screws weren't torqued to spec or 2, the screws are broken.
Heavy Metal
07-05-11, 23:03
If this were me and it was my rifle I would toss your loose one in the trash. There is too much risk involved. How long did this go with it loose? Its possible the threads are weakened and out of spec by now. I know when bolts are loose and rattling around in any form threads tend to get messed up. Its just the nature of physics and metal wear.
A 100 dollar bolt is a lot cheaper than a plastic surgeon or an undertaker.
You would throw away an entire BCG because a cap screw is loose?
Why not replace the $0.50 cap screw?
If you would replace a BCG over this instead of fixing it or having it fixes, you really should consider a new hobby that requires a less anal outlook. You can carry it too far. This is carryng it too far.
You would throw away an entire BCG because a cap screw is loose?
Why not replace the $0.50 cap screw?
If you would replace a BCG over this instead of fixing it or having it fixes, you really should consider a new hobby that requires a less anal outlook. You can carry it too far. This is carryng it too far.
Heck yeah I would if I was worried about the threads. If that thing was rattling like that for a little bit while being fired, then count yourself lucky it did not damage your face somehow. Just think of that bolt rattling back and forth on the threads rounding them out. You may be able to tighten them down to what you think is good only to find the threads rip out later and boom.
Heavy Metal
07-05-11, 23:16
I tell you what. Anything like that happens, drop me an note and I will send you postage and take it off your hands for proper disposal.
Your face not mine. But to me a new BCG is insurance.
There are too many variables (how long it was loose, why did it loosen, perhaps stripped threads already?) I know a cheap way to eliminate those issues and their liabilities is to pony up and buy a new one. I would then sleep well knowing you didn't put a bandaid on the weakest link.
Guntrician
07-06-11, 01:01
OP, if you ask for Tom at spikes and request an exchange for new complete BCG, I'm certain he would be happy to send one. He will probably send it right out and have you return your old one whenever you get a chance.
I would do what Guntrician said and ask to Spikes to warranty replace it.
Absolutely. This upper is brand new with appr. 300 rounds through it, none of which were rapid fire (my range is ghey and frowns apon it). I did a thorough inspection of the gun with particular attention to the BCG when I first received it and the issue did not exsist so I didn't recive it this way. Must've happened after my last rainge trip.
I actually discovered it by feel when I had the BCG out to compare differances with my brothers Armalite BCG. The staking on mine was a little better but hell, his is still funtional at least.
So now that I know its completely unacceptable and abnormal, not to mention unsafe I'll take full advantage of the warranty and get a brand new one.
Some strange responses in this topic.
Remove the fasteners, clean the contact surfaces, reattach and torque properly, and restake. Not rocket science. People look at this staking stuff like it's some form of witchcraft. Just take care of it yourself in the five minutes it will take.
So now that I know its completely unacceptable and abnormal, not to mention unsafe I'll take full advantage of the warranty and get a brand new one.
That to me is the best solution. If it was staked properly as you say and did not move when you bought it, that is an indication to me that the threads are messed up on either the bolt or the screw going into the bolt. If it was me I would demand a new one. Providing you did not buy this a few years ago and only now got onto shooting it. But this to me seems like a manufacture defect.
That to me is the best solution. If it was staked properly as you say and did not move when you bought it, that is an indication to me that the threads are messed up on either the bolt or the screw going into the bolt. If it was me I would demand a new one. Providing you did not buy this a few years ago and only now got onto shooting it. But this to me seems like a manufacture defect.
It is far more likely that the bolt(s) just loosened up and are not actually staked as well as the Op thinks.
Perhaps it just loosened up, or perhaps it was became loose after 50 shots and was fired for another 250 bouncing around haphazard. Sideways inertia deflection and wobbling of the screws will mess up the threads real quick. Its not a light force being applied either. Threads are not designed to deal with off axis leverage when not tightened to spec. Something to consider too, perhaps it loosened up in the first place because the threads are stripped due to faulty manufacture or cross threading?
Now if I was in a battle situation, I would tighten it down and carry on. But in the real world I would get a new one and not worry about stripped thread issues. Something is not right and I would demand a replacement.
Wow. I just got back on the net tonight and I am reading the continuation of this thread, asking myself. Where the fcuk am I? This isn't rocket science and we aren't launching the space shuttle. We are talking about 2 screws, a carrier and a couple of minutes time.
Send the damn thing back and get a new one or donate it to someone who will fix it in 5 minutes and have a spare BC.
GeorgiaBoy
07-06-11, 16:46
Wow. I just got back on the net tonight and I am reading the continuation of this thread, asking myself. Where the fcuk am I? This isn't rocket science and we aren't launching the space shuttle. We are talking about 2 screws, a carrier and a couple of minutes time.
Send the damn thing back and get a new one or donate it to someone who will fix it in 5 minutes and have a spare BC.
Same thing I have been thinking. This thread is awfully long for such a simple issue.
Wow. I just got back on the net tonight and I am reading the continuation of this thread, asking myself. Where the fcuk am I? This isn't rocket science and we aren't launching the space shuttle. We are talking about 2 screws, a carrier and a couple of minutes time.
Send the damn thing back and get a new one or donate it to someone who will fix it in 5 minutes and have a spare BC.
That will teach you to take a break from the site. Bad moderator. no cookie!
Heavy Metal
07-06-11, 17:39
Wow. I just got back on the net tonight and I am reading the continuation of this thread, asking myself. Where the fcuk am I? This isn't rocket science and we aren't launching the space shuttle. We are talking about 2 screws, a carrier and a couple of minutes time.
Send the damn thing back and get a new one or donate it to someone who will fix it in 5 minutes and have a spare BC.
I tried IG, I tried! Lord knows I tried.........
Everybody please remember, my BCG disposal service is provided absolutely free of charge!!!
You are talking about a non professional who I have no clue if he could recognize a stripped thread or not. You are advising him to re-torque a part that is a high stress area that if broken could send shrapnel into his skull.
If you were an NCO right now, would you tell a private to re-torque it without checking yourself? Or would you tell him to send it to the armor for a replacement?
Now if someone qualified and knew what they were doing was inspecting it, sure. But they would not be asking for help on the net anyways.
Remember, you don't know what skill level the other person is. So always play it safe till you know.
No offense to the original poster at all. But look at the idiots who build ARs on Arfcom....
I had the same thing happen to my spikes rifle just giv Tom a call and you will have a new one in about 3 days
sent from my EVO using tapatalk
I had the same thing happen to my spikes rifle just give Tom a call and you will have a new one in about 3 days
sent from my EVO using tapatalk
The OP has been given advice. He can now run with it or not.
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