View Full Version : ND caught on film with 1911
Iraq Ninja
07-04-11, 15:57
Haven't seen this posted yet, so here is a ND caught on film at a range.
He was very lucky...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYvAxLX6OzE&feature=youtu.be
Death by Serpa holster...
That is such a dangerous design... It's right up there in the competition with the Sig forward grip / trigger activated light combo, for being the most unsafe "tactical" product ever...
8972
Just my .02
B
He should have shot the target still, at the very least. :D
Serpa was the culprit??
LowSpeed_HighDrag
07-04-11, 16:30
I wear a Serpa on Duty if I cant find my Safariland. The Serpa is not to blame. The idiot behind the gun is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gl_c0MMzHZI
And this classic gem:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIdGT...el_video_title
Or, how about this doozy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhSCTolAY1w
At least it was shot in HD!
ICANHITHIMMAN
07-04-11, 16:42
well at least he put the safety back on before he set the pistol down. Looks like it hurt most guys shoot them selvs in the hand trying that drill with out instruction.
It looks to me like a case of trying to shoot faster than you can think. smooth is fast and keep the finger off the trigger till your sights are on target.
At least HE was shot in HD!
Fixed.
Guy comes across as a bit of a goober, but I salute him for owning up, and putting his screwup out there for everyone else to learn from.
I wear a Serpa on Duty if I cant find my Safariland. The Serpa is not to blame. The idiot behind the gun is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gl_c0MMzHZI
And this classic gem:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIdGT...el_video_title
Or, how about this doozy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhSCTolAY1w
Haha. Check this one out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVIZv_CzEUc&NR=1
This guy is too much.
After hearing Kyle DeFoor and several other TigerSwan instructors discuss the problems associated with the Serpa, I'd never own one. They also demonstrated how easy it was to foul the release mechanism. Was kind of funny since there were several in class.
Hmmm
To those on some sites that say a 45 is better than a 9 or other smaller caliber cause it will blah blah blah compared to a 9
Shows it's all about placement more than caliber
Wonder if he was training with gold dot or something what the wound would be like though :)
Guess it shows that a 45 don't clean blow your leg off :)
He should have shot the target still, at the very least. :D
Serpa was the culprit??
Look at the 2:00 mark of the video where he is describing the incident and showing the holster, it is a Serpa and the motion he is describing is exactly how Glocks and M&Ps ND with that design also...
I wear a Serpa on Duty if I cant find my Safariland.
I strongly recommend that you reconsider that decision. Although ultimately the loose nut behind the trigger is responsible for the discharge, under stress bad things tend to happen with that design more than others...
Again, this is just my .02
B
Guy comes across as a bit of a goober, but I salute him for owning up,.
I'd like to feel the same, but he seems a little too proud of it and digs the attention shooting himself is getting. That's how it comes across to me at least.
ForTehNguyen
07-04-11, 17:52
operator error
Look at the 2:00 mark of the video where he is describing the incident and showing the holster, it is a Serpa and the motion he is describing is exactly how Glocks and M&Ps ND with that design also...
Yeah, I was pretty sure he was using the Serpa, but had the description of the 5.11 in there as some sort of "excuse"?
I'm still a little perplexed about the whole "disabled safety" on the draw stroke.
Dollars to donuts says he had safety off, cocked, round in the chamber trying to get speed at the cost of safety.
The safety off and "rock" on to target come at about the same time when shooting from retention with the 1911 for most people, as I recall.
Haven't seen this posted yet, so here is a ND caught on film at a range.
He was very lucky...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYvAxLX6OzE&feature=youtu.be
Posted it last night in the long drawn out "why Serpas are bad thread" but it probably deserves a thread of its own.
ForTehNguyen
07-04-11, 18:14
he disabled the 1911 safety because he was practicing earlier with the 5.11 thumbdrive but he swapped to the serpa in the actual exercise. He training scarred the 5.11 thumbdrive motion with the Serpa which disabled the 1911 thumb safety. Skip the video to 1:30, he talks about it. Whole incident was a combination of several things. The 5.11 thumb-drive mechanism + 1911 thumb safety seems like a bad idea
Death by Serpa holster...
That is such a dangerous design... It's right up there in the competition with the Sig forward grip / trigger activated light combo, for being the most unsafe "tactical" product ever...
8972
Just my .02
B
Some dipstick over in the AR pictures thread thinks trigger activated lights are good to go.
VooDoo6Actual
07-04-11, 18:31
operator error
+1 having your finger in trigger guard before your muzzle is on target is not a good idea as evidenced by this ND.
+1 having your finger in trigger guard before your muzzle is on target is not a good idea as evidenced by this ND.
Which speaks to the flaw in the Serpa design, under stress and speed the trigger finger, which activates the release, ends up in the trigger guard. It is a poor design, an unsafe design, pure and simple.
He training scarred the 5.11 thumbdrive motion with the Serpa which disabled the 1911 thumb safety.
I'm going on record as not buying that, but have no factual evidence to back it up. I'm a natural skeptic though, so there's that....
"after the shot went off, my training took over......i called my parents....."
if there is one thing I am glad he retained from all that training... was the part where he calls his mom
Heavy Metal
07-04-11, 19:39
Some dipstick over in the AR pictures thread thinks trigger activated lights are good to go.
Lets see....if I pull one trigger will I pull the other one too under stress in a sympathetic response???
This is a great example of the disconnect between engineers, marketing and the end users Buck.
ForTehNguyen
07-04-11, 20:11
I'm going on record as not buying that, but have no factual evidence to back it up. I'm a natural skeptic though, so there's that....
skip to 1:30 in his video, he explains that he was practicing on his thumb drive + Glock, then swapped to a Serpa + 1911. That muscle memory to hit the thumbdrive unfortunately carried over to the Serpa + 1911 exercise with painful results when it deactivated his thumb safety. Sounds like classic training scar to me. Training scar + Serpa + 1911 thumb safety = ND in this case. Several specific things had to come together at the right time for this incident.
"after the shot went off, my training took over......i called my parents....."
if there is one thing I am glad he retained from all that training... was the part where he calls his mom
LOL at first I was giving him the benefit of the doubt, but after making that statement, it all flew out the window...err winder (?) :lol:
Are these the same holsters that Sig was giving away with a light for 10 bucks when you bought a pistol s few years back?
skip to 1:30 in his video, he explains that he was practicing on his thumb drive + Glock, then swapped to a Serpa + 1911. That muscle memory to hit the thumbdrive unfortunately carried over to the Serpa + 1911 exercise with painful results when it deactivated his thumb safety. Sounds like classic training scar to me. Training scar + Serpa + 1911 thumb safety = ND in this case. Several specific things had to come together at the right time for this incident.
Skip to 0:00 of this post to hear me on the record as believing that he never had the 1911 thumb safety ON to begin with....
:)
outrider627
07-04-11, 22:28
Farva needs to stop playing with guns and drink his litre of soda.
Littlelebowski
07-04-11, 22:36
Needs to take some formal training and to do some physical training. It's not that ****ing hard to to stay in shape.
theblackknight
07-04-11, 22:57
So your saying having 2 different holsters, one of which you thumb it out, and the other you push a button over the trigger guard , is bad when the 2 things I need to do with this gun is click a thumb saftey off and pull the trigger? MADNESS!
http://images.outdoorpros.com/images/prod/5/Safariland-6004-73-541-rw-25570-861.jpg
GermanSynergy
07-05-11, 00:06
This happened as a result of
*Going too fast for level of training/skill (disengaging the thumb safety on the 1911 while weapon was still in the holster, bad idea with a SERPA)
*Using a holster where retention must be manually disengaged with trigger finger
Combining these 2 factors, as well as using a pistol like the 1911 (with it's very short trigger travel/reset), is a recipe for total disaster. I'm not comfortable with the finger going on the trigger until the press out is being performed, and the SERPA's retention mechanism just invites bad things happening.
There's a reason why many reputable firearms trainers do not allow the SERPA holsters in their classes. This video illustrates why that is a prudent decision.
When carrying a gun, a quality holster is a must. This is not an area where you want to do it on the cheap.
Just my humble opinion.
This is why I use a Safariland ALS equipped holster when I need level 3 retention. That way my thumb deactivates all of the retention devices and my trigger finger never has to make a movement other than to naturally index on the frame until ready to fire.
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-05-11, 03:12
skip to 1:30 in his video, he explains that he was practicing on his thumb drive + Glock, then swapped to a Serpa + 1911. That muscle memory to hit the thumbdrive unfortunately carried over to the Serpa + 1911 exercise with painful results when it deactivated his thumb safety. Sounds like classic training scar to me. Training scar + Serpa + 1911 thumb safety = ND in this case. Several specific things had to come together at the right time for this incident.
I could buy his story if he weren't doing a contact drill. With out his commentary and background, if you just watched the video you would assume that he was rushing things because he was running a close drill- he snicked off the safety and his finger went to the trigger before he had a chance to rotate the gun. Occam's razor- I think this is the easiest and most likely reason. If he were to post more of his runs, I bet you'd see some of the same motions. Lot easier explanation than holster confusion.
I saw a thread about six months ago somewhere (not here IIRC) that something like 40% of 1911 shooters will take the safety off as soon as they clear the holster. Eeck!
Needs to take some formal training and to do some physical training. It's not that ****ing hard to to stay in shape.
I'm sure he would be touched that you are concerned about his health, but chubby fingers caused it?
Lucky he was practicing with FMJ, a HP might have tore him up a lot more.
"after the shot went off, my training took over......i called my parents....."
if there is one thing I am glad he retained from all that training... was the part where he calls his mom
Ditto
MOMMMMMMMY can hear her now saying you frigin idiot call 911 !!!!
His training took over???? It should have taken over before he shot himself!!! The whole video and his actions were soooo wrong on many levels. Like another member posted, he should quit playing with guns.
montanadave
07-05-11, 07:34
I'm not going to comment on this ND and the factors contributing to the accident, as there are members here with far more experience (both shooting and training) under different levels of stress with a variety of equipment than me. I'll let the experts perform the post-mortem.
But drifting a tad off topic, I've noticed a trend in multiple threads (most recently this ND and another of a gun cleaning accident) for many to immediately decide that this "douche bag, ass clown, etc." has no business being around firearms and should devote his attentions to making macrame plant hangers or the like.
And, yet, many of these same members are also staunch proponents of the 2nd amendment, bristling at any hint of modifications or additions to current gun control laws. Many would likely argue for significant repeal of current restrictions. And almost all would condemn any legislation or regulation which required handgun training or demonstrated proficiency prior to the purchase of a handgun.
Shit happens. Accidents occur on a fairly routine basis (hang out at an ED over a holiday weekend). And some are easily preventable with a modicum of common sense or adult supervision. Others are just that, accidents.
But it strikes me as more than a little curious that some who would argue that anyone with a pulse (at least for the time being) should have a firearm are so quick to advocate taking that same gun away.
Needs to take some formal training and to do some physical training. It's not that ****ing hard to to stay in shape.
After she shot himself he "fell back on his training" which was to call his mom.
I am glad that he had the balls to post the video. Some may see it as furthering his vanity, but he had to know he was going to take a ration of shit for it. Lessons like these help everyone.
While I agree that this is predominately user-error, I am frankly surprised that nobody has sued Blackhawk over this design yet. I'm not saying I'd agree with the lawsuit, but we live in a world where people pour hot coffee on their hoo-ha and sue McDonalds as if it was a surprise, and this is surely no different.
I do not understand the attraction to, or popularity of, these holsters. As I see it they offer no advantage, and whatever perceived advantage comes at too high a potential cost. But for whatever reason those that cling to them, especially many of those that managed to get issued them, are rabidly attached to them... right up until they have a failure.
Heavy Metal
07-05-11, 09:58
After she shot himself he "fell back on his training" which was to call his mom.
I hope his Mom was the 911 Dispatch.
"I posted this because negligent discharges happen"
Out of everything he said, this was probably the the worst. Negligent discharges happen because of negligence, not just because they happen.
I thought the .45ACP was supposed to put people down with one shot :lol:
... for all you "9mm aint-no 45" guys.
After she shot himself he "fell back on his training" which was to call his mom.
Yeah, that's kind of where my "he should of at least engaged the target" comment came from...
The part that would save his life would be putting rounds on target, then collapsing in a heap while on the phone with his mom?
Any idea if he did a facebook status update before calling 911? :D
I'm not going to comment on this ND and the factors contributing to the accident, as there are members here with far more experience (both shooting and training) under different levels of stress with a variety of equipment than me. I'll let the experts perform the post-mortem.
But drifting a tad off topic, I've noticed a trend in multiple threads (most recently this ND and another of a gun cleaning accident) for many to immediately decide that this "douche bag, ass clown, etc." has no business being around firearms and should devote his attentions to making macrame plant hangers or the like.
And, yet, many of these same members are also staunch proponents of the 2nd amendment, bristling at any hint of modifications or additions to current gun control laws. Many would likely argue for significant repeal of current restrictions. And almost all would condemn any legislation or regulation which required handgun training or demonstrated proficiency prior to the purchase of a handgun.
Shit happens. Accidents occur on a fairly routine basis (hang out at an ED over a holiday weekend). And some are easily preventable with a modicum of common sense or adult supervision. Others are just that, accidents.
But it strikes me as more than a little curious that some who would argue that anyone with a pulse (at least for the time being) should have a firearm are so quick to advocate taking that same gun away.
I just read through this thread top to bottom and I fail to see where anyone explicitly states or even implies that they are advocating the enactment of legislation or regulation that would require the demonstration of proficiency with a handgun prior to purchase, or anything else related to the use of government force to prevent things like this from happening.
Saying that someone has no business around firearms and saying that the government should regulate who can buy/own a gun based on some theoretical proficiency standard are two very different things.
There may be other threads that actually show this suggested disconnect in stance, but I don't see it at all in this thread.
Yeah, that's kind of where my "he should of at least engaged the target" comment came from...
The part that would save his life would be putting rounds on target, then collapsing in a heap while on the phone with his mom?
Any idea if he did a facebook status update before calling 911? :D
I know, right? He had to send a tweet first though.;)
Death by Serpa holster...
That is such a dangerous design... It's right up there in the competition with the Sig forward grip / trigger activated light combo, for being the most unsafe "tactical" product ever...
8972
Just my .02
B
I'm going on about 10 years of daily carry and weekly training with a Serpa and no issues. Course I was taught to keep Mr. Finger off of Mr. Trigger until you are ready to fire.
To me the most dangerous holsters I've ever seen is the "push..then pull" retention holsters. I can't tell you how many LE guys I've seen fumble with them during stressful practice. They won't cause a ND, but they might cause an unintentional round received.
I'm going on about 10 years of daily carry and weekly training with a Serpa and no issues. Course I was taught to keep Mr. Finger off of Mr. Trigger until you are ready to fire.
To me the most dangerous holsters I've ever seen is the "push..then pull" retention holsters. I can't tell you how many LE guys I've seen fumble with them during stressful practice. They won't cause a ND, but they might cause an unintentional round received.
So the problem with the Serpa is a training issue, but the problem with the push/pull is something else? :confused:
Can you cite a specific make/model of holster you're talking about? Are you referring to the police-style triple retention holster like the Safariland Model 070 (http://www.safariland.com/DutyGear/product.aspx?pid=070)?
Suwannee Tim
07-05-11, 13:16
After she shot himself he "fell back on his training" which was to call his mom.
I wish I had of had some training when I shot myself. I didn't have any so I didn't know to call my mom. I just wrapped the wound up to stop the bleeding. 'Bout a week later it started bleeding again, a lot. The Principal who must have had some training called my Mom. As it happened my Dad was home and he came to see what the matter was. He examined the wound and rolled the imbedded bullet ( well, actually a BB ) around until it was under the hole, mashed a bit and popped the BB out like an overripe pimple. Got some blood and pus too. Didn't even earn me the rest of the day off. Good to have some training. So you know what to do when you shoot yourself.
.....Course I was taught to keep Mr. Finger off of Mr. Trigger until you are ready to fire....
I got some training there, I was taught to keep your booger hook off the bang switch until you are ready to fire. I guess that's the same thing.
I gotta get some more training.
What I liked was the way his britches inflated when he fired the shot.
He's lucky he didn't blow his damn knee off.
Farva needs to stop playing with guns and drink his litre of soda.
"Litre-A-Cola! Do we make Litre-a Cola?!"
titsonritz
07-05-11, 14:23
Can you cite a specific make/model of holster you're talking about? Are you referring to the police-style triple retention holster like the Safariland Model 070 (http://www.safariland.com/DutyGear/product.aspx?pid=070)?
I picture their Raptor Series.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gl_c0MMzHZI
And this classic gem:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIdGT...el_video_title
Or, how about this doozy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhSCTolAY1w
Middle link isn't working... That guy is a knucklehead and should devote a little more time to real training instead of trying to impress his "good friends" on Youtube.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
07-05-11, 16:14
Middle link isn't working... That guy is a knucklehead and should devote a little more time to real training instead of trying to impress his "good friends" on Youtube.
Woops. Here you go brother, enjoy the fine cuisine as Tex drinks a Grebner Mojito:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIdGTN4bAgI
Woops. Here you go brother, enjoy the fine cuisine as Tex drinks a Grebner Mojito:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIdGTN4bAgI
I can't possibly fathom the amount of some people's stupidity. About the only redeeming quality any of his videos have is the fact that he thanks LE and MIL at the end of each video. The only problem with that is watching everything he does before that.
GermanSynergy
07-05-11, 17:13
I wear a Serpa on Duty if I cant find my Safariland. The Serpa is not to blame. The idiot behind the gun is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gl_c0MMzHZI
And this classic gem:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIdGT...el_video_title
Or, how about this doozy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhSCTolAY1w
I feel dumber after watching those. I'll need an extra dose of fish oil to recoup my lost IQ points. :o
Suwannee Tim
07-05-11, 17:56
I just figured this out! This guy is a comedian! The ND was a gag!
ForTehNguyen
07-05-11, 18:02
I could buy his story if he weren't doing a contact drill. With out his commentary and background, if you just watched the video you would assume that he was rushing things because he was running a close drill- he snicked off the safety and his finger went to the trigger before he had a chance to rotate the gun. he was practicing with FMJ, a HP might have tore him up a lot more.
he said it in the video that he hit the 1911 safety before exiting the holster, because the thumbdrive holster (that he was messing around with earlier) was the almost the same motion. Thats why the safety went off earlier than its suppose to. Dunno how to make it clearer when he said it explicitly in the video. There was plenty of commentary in it, enough to make a conclusion of what happened.
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-05-11, 21:07
he said it in the video that he hit the 1911 safety before exiting the holster, because the thumbdrive holster (that he was messing around with earlier) was the almost the same motion. Thats why the safety went off earlier than its suppose to. Dunno how to make it clearer when he said it explicitly in the video. There was plenty of commentary in it, enough to make a conclusion of what happened.
Just because he said it, don't make it so.
He is rationalizing his actions and I think everyone can agree that he is not an expert on firearms and gear. I could do a voice over of the video and have you convinced that it was bad weapon manipulation. I'll even throw in the good ol'boy accent for free. :p
That's why I said just watch the video and believe your own eyes, not the story that Keyser Söze is spinning after the fact.
Occam's Razor- is it some kind of gun platform and holster interaction or did he flub a draw on a contact drill.
It's his opinion of what happened versus the fact of the situation.
5.11 doesn't make a holster for a 1911. Can we re-name this thread now?
ForTehNguyen
07-05-11, 21:21
and I watched the the video 10x, and it doesn't show anything that contradicts his account, cant even tell what the status of his weapon is before the draw because of the angle to support claims that it was already unsafe before the draw. It doesnt provide any new or contradictory information nor does it disprove the plausible training scar theory.
5.11 doesn't make a holster for a 1911. Can we re-name this thread now?
thumbdrive with a 1911 already sounds like a real bad idea.
The person in this video would not be viewed as a compelling witness for most things in life. The video only cements this conclusion.
So the problem with the Serpa is a training issue, but the problem with the push/pull is something else? :confused:
Can you cite a specific make/model of holster you're talking about? Are you referring to the police-style triple retention holster like the Safariland Model 070 (http://www.safariland.com/DutyGear/product.aspx?pid=070)?
You are correct about it being a training issue. I'm sure if a person trained regularly with that retention holster they could use it as effortlessly as I can use a Serpa.
I don't know the exact model, I didn't ask. I was training with a bunch of LE guys when I encountered it for the first time about 8 years ago.
Unlike the Serpa it just seemed very counter intuitive. To me, it seems natural to use a Serpa and the finger is in the correct position along the side after releasing the holster. But with the retention holster I'm talking about you go against your natural instinct and push the handgun down into the holster before it releases and can be drawn. It is NOT the Safariland you linked, I'm not even sure how the damn thing worked, it sounded like a serious contraption.
And the guy who had it, and supposedly had trained with it before and used it for a duty holster at work, he pulled rather than pushed on about three occasions when the drills got complex or he was under pressure.
To me that seems rather dangerous. When I and the few other guys using Serpas were put under stress during the same exercises we didn't have to stop and figure out the Serpa, and that includes the one guy who was using one for the first time.
So that is what I'm basing my opinions on.
And on a final note, maybe I am projecting.
Maybe because I use a Serpa with no problems I am assuming that must be true for everyone. And that simply isn't the case when it comes to guns, gear, stance and technique - these things are not one size fits all. People do that to me and I don't appreciate it, I should try and be mindful to not make the same kind of assumptions about others.
I use a 6004/6005 for 1911's and Glocks.
On more than one occasion, people have noted that the retention device does not seem to slow me down -- at all. I know I am not nearly the fastest draw of any of the people with whom I normally shoot, that also use a 6004.
I have been training with one since 2001 and there is something to be said about training, muscle memory and repetition with one system.
I'm sure the SERPA could be the same way, but the finger pressure near the trigger guard, trigger, frame above the trigger seems like a very bad idea to me, and continues to come up as an issue with even trained individuals. I'll pass.
Kudos to the fellow for showing it and explaining it and encouraging gun safety.
he disabled the 1911 safety because he was practicing earlier with the 5.11 thumbdrive but he swapped to the serpa in the actual exercise. He training scarred the 5.11 thumbdrive motion with the Serpa which disabled the 1911 thumb safety. Skip the video to 1:30, he talks about it. Whole incident was a combination of several things. The 5.11 thumb-drive mechanism + 1911 thumb safety seems like a bad idea
I dont buy his description of why he thinks he shot himself using the serpa vs the 5.11 thumbdrive. Do I think using the two different retention holsters during his range session contributed to the ND? Very slightly perhaps, but had his finger not pulled the trigger as he was drawing the pistol from the serpa he wouldn't have shot himself plain and simple. The design of the serpa requires the shooter to press his trigger finger in towards the trigger of the pistol while drawing from this holster. The actual "training scar" was caused by the design on the SERPA. It is a shitty design by any measure.
Beyond that, the entire holster is a cheap p.o.s. I have ripped them off of co-workers belts to prove the point, and have also seen them ripped-off of belts during training due to the flimsy mounting/attachment of the holster to the belt attachment.
The retention button has been shown to be very easily fouled/locked-up if anything (gravel, mud, snow, sand, etc.) gets into it while fighting/training on the ground.
Anyone who relies on a SERPA retention holster to carry their pistol on a daily basis for whatever reason: duty, concealed carry, range training etc. needs to accept the fact that the SERPA is a piece of garbage. Get over it. Get a quality holster for your pistol. The Safariland ALS 6377/6378 is what I recommend as a replacement for the SERPA. It is a far superior holster. No holster or piece of gear is fail proof, but the SERPA is about as bad as it gets.
Yeah, I know you CAN be perfectly safe with a Serpa. But I tried one and found that contrary to all of the training I've received, I was putting my finger too low. Sure I could manage it, but why? I'll stick with something that allows my training to be more consistent. Maybe I got the wrong training. Or, maybe the video says not so much.
ForTehNguyen
07-07-11, 19:23
I dont buy his description of why he thinks he shot himself using the serpa vs the 5.11 thumbdrive. Do I think using the two different retention holsters during his range session contributed to the ND? Very slightly perhaps, but had his finger not pulled the trigger as he was drawing the pistol from the serpa he wouldn't have shot himself plain and simple. The design of the serpa requires the shooter to press his trigger finger in towards the trigger of the pistol while drawing from this holster. The actual "training scar" was caused by the design on the SERPA. It is a shitty design by any measure.
Assuming the 1911 was on safe when holstered: Fudging the muscle memory of the 5.11 thumbdrive which is nearly the same motion as deactivating a 1911 thumb safety, its the serpas fault how? Clearly operator error
Assuming the 1911 wasn't on safe when holstered: its still the serpas fault if he NDed? Clearly operator error
In either case the gun is in the same status (unsafe) at the moment of the draw. Operator error, not the holster, is the primary contributor in either case by a foolish human defeating/bypassing the primary safety feature of that pistol in an unintended way. How is the serpa a training scar when he didnt even train on it? Training scars are the bad habits obtained through training that will show up in the actual exercise being trained for in a negative way. Guess what holster he trained on earlier in the day? It wasnt the Serpa. The serpa did indeed contribute to an already unsafe situation but can only contribute when the shooter deactivates the safety at the wrong time. Clearly the primary blame is the shooter himself which is the initiator of the unsafe event.
Assuming the 1911 was on safe when holstered: Fudging the muscle memory of the 5.11 thumbdrive which is nearly the same motion as deactivating a 1911 thumb safety, its the serpas fault how? Clearly operator error
Assuming the 1911 wasn't on safe when holstered: its still the serpas fault if he NDed? Clearly operator error
In either case the gun is in the same status (unsafe) at the moment of the draw. Operator error, not the holster, is the primary contributor in either case by a foolish human defeating/bypassing the primary safety feature of that pistol in an unintended way. How is the serpa a training scar when he didnt even train on it? Training scars are the bad habits obtained through training that will show up in the actual exercise being trained for in a negative way. Guess what holster he trained on earlier in the day? It wasnt the Serpa. The serpa did indeed contribute to an already unsafe situation but can only contribute when the shooter deactivates the safety at the wrong time. Clearly the primary blame is the shooter himself which is the initiator of the unsafe event.
"How is the serpa a training scar when he didnt even train on it?"
I am assuming that he has been using the SERPA for some extended period of time prior to testing the 5.11 holster on the day in question that he shot himself. So if this is the case then YES, he certainly did in-fact "train" with the SERPA for a longer period of time than he ever did with the 5.11 "Thumb Drive" holster.
I would argue that if the 5.11 Thumb Drive holster causes a "training scar" by creating a similar motion with the shooters thumb to release the retention button as required to deactivate the 1911's thumb safety, then the SERPA causes a far more serious "training scar" by relying on a similar motion used to release the retention button that is required to pull the trigger and fire the pistol. The action that caused the 1911 to fire was not the thumb safety, it was the finger pulling the trigger. This, in my opinion is the major design flaw of the SERPA holster. It causes a shooter using the SERPA holster to build the muscle memory of pushing the trigger finger in towards the trigger in-order to release the retention of the holster. In a slow, controlled environment this does not appear to be an issue. Add varying levels of stress & speed to the equation and you end up with numerous documented incidents of shooters pulling the trigger under duress, whether natural or fabricated, while drawing their pistols (regardless of pistol make or manual safety mechanism) and shooting themselves in the leg.
Safariland makes the 6300 series ALS retention holster for 1911's with the ALS retention release button located in a similar place as the 5.11 "Thumb Drive" holster. I have not heard of one single incident of anyone shooting them self while drawing a 1911 from a Safariland ALS holster. Why? Likely in-part because it does not require the shooter to push in towards the pistols trigger with the trigger finger in-order to release the pistol from the holster.
The term "training scar" does not have an absolute definition listed in Webster's dictionary that I am aware of. I understand it to mean a bad habit or poor technique that is introduced by a training method, a piece of gear, or any other means that causes a shooter to retain that bad habit via repetition/muscle memory. The SERPA requires you to push in with your trigger finger in-order to release the pistol from the holster. This is counter to everything I have been taught in-terms of firearms safety and in my opinion is a "training scar" on a good day. It could also contribute to you shooting yourself during a dynamic & stressful, deadly encounter while drawing your pistol in the fight of your life.
I have seen enough documented incidents of officers having "ND's" during training with the SERPA holster and incidents of civilian shooters shooting themselves on the range when drawing from a SERPA holster to form the opinion that it is not just simply a "training issue", but also a major flaw in the design of the SERPA holster.
The SERPA holster is a piece of crap.
Most of the well respected instructors in the training industry (Kyle Defoor, TigerSwan, Steve Fisher of MagPul, and others) either prohibit students attending their classes from using a SERPA holster, or highly recommend against using a SERPA during their classes and usually explain why they don't recommend the SERPA due to many of the same reasons that have been mentioned by myself and others in this thread. This should be a "Clue".
Check out the remix!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmQF0J1LhHE&feature=feedlik
Had me crackin' up.
Littlelebowski
07-09-11, 13:25
A Tactical Response Fighting Pistol class alumni (http://youtu.be/rXk0VSjlcf8).
A Tactical Response Fighting Pistol class alumni (http://youtu.be/rXk0VSjlcf8).
What's funny is even Yeager didn't let students use them in classes for a while.
Too funny.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
07-09-11, 13:53
A Tactical Response Fighting Pistol class alumni (http://youtu.be/rXk0VSjlcf8).
Did Yeager throw up after the review? He couldnt take "Tex" seriously no matter how hard he tried lol.
ForTehNguyen
07-09-11, 14:22
The SERPA holster is a piece of crap
no matter how advanced or well designed a holster is, it wont fix a stupid shooter that didn't have his weapon on safe when suppose to. If he had his weapon on safe when it should've been, an ND would not have happened even with Serpa's less than optimal design. Focusing the blame on the holster is like blaming a car accident on crappy brakes despite the driver driving 100+ mph at the wrong time. Completely missing the true cause of this accident.
The weakest link in any accident is the human being, they will always find some way to screw something up even with the most well designed safety systems - whether it be lowsy training or bypassing safety equipment. This is a classic example.
Littlelebowski
07-09-11, 14:33
Did Yeager throw up after the review? He couldnt take "Tex" seriously no matter how hard he tried lol.
Couldn't tell you. Haven't trained with Yeager nor do I plan to.
no matter how advanced or well designed a holster is, it wont fix a stupid shooter that didn't have his weapon on safe when suppose to. If he had his weapon on safe when it should've been, an ND would not have happened even with Serpa's less than optimal design. Focusing the blame on the holster is like blaming a car accident on crappy brakes despite the driver driving 100+ mph at the wrong time. Completely missing the true cause of this accident.
The weakest link in any accident is the human being, they will always find some way to screw something up even with the most well designed safety systems - whether it be lowsy training or bypassing safety equipment. This is a classic example.
This holster is made for plenty of guns with no manual safetys, such as the m&p, Glocks, XD's, etc. Faulting the condition of the manual safety on the gun in this single example doesn't mean much. If the design didn't require the user to go smashing their finger towards the bang switch, it wouldn't matter if the thumb and grip safety were both disengaged.
no matter how advanced or well designed a holster is, it wont fix a stupid shooter that didn't have his weapon on safe when suppose to. If he had his weapon on safe when it should've been, an ND would not have happened even with Serpa's less than optimal design. Focusing the blame on the holster is like blaming a car accident on crappy brakes despite the driver driving 100+ mph at the wrong time. Completely missing the true cause of this accident.
The weakest link in any accident is the human being, they will always find some way to screw something up even with the most well designed safety systems - whether it be lowsy training or bypassing safety equipment. This is a classic example.
While what some of what you said is absolutely true, the safety on a 1911 does not cause the pistol to fire. You need to pull the trigger just like any other modern pistol. Disengaging the safety was not the cause of Tex shooting himself in the leg. Putting his finger on the trigger and pulling it during the draw-stroke was, plain & simple. The SERPA holster design makes this event much more likely to happen regardless of the type of pistol or placement of, or complete lack of manual safety on the pistol. The thumb safety is completely irrelevant to this incident in my opinion.
It's pretty much the definition of bad design. Smart people will find ways around bad design (or bad process for that matter). Good design ENHANCES process or activity. This clearly ain't it. Bad design hurts the activity, but is usually circumventable. This guy maybe wasn't smart enough. Some of you are. That still pretty much makes it bad design (I'm a VP of Engineering, so I either design things or manage people who design things for a living).
Has to be seen to believe:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DK4PhRAVhPA
From that vid, shooting himself was not an "if" but "when" thing. At least he didn't shoot his balls off showing the above. Someone who really gives gun owners a bad name and why not everyone should have access to the 'net!
On the ND vid, thought he was a harmless, albeit clueless guy, doing stupid human tricks on the net. Now, I think he's dangerous to others also. :rolleyes:
Has to be seen to believe:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DK4PhRAVhPA
From that vid, shooting himself was not an "if" but "when" thing. At least he didn't shoot his balls off showing the above. Someone who really gives gun owners a bad name and why not everyone should have access to the 'net!
On the ND vid, thought he was a harmless, albeit clueless guy, doing stupid human tricks on the net. Now, I think he's dangerous to others also. :rolleyes:
I don't think this guy should be the one to determine what is and isn't safe. Wonder what his username is on TOS.
GermanSynergy
07-15-11, 12:08
Has to be seen to believe:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DK4PhRAVhPA
From that vid, shooting himself was not an "if" but "when" thing. At least he didn't shoot his balls off showing the above. Someone who really gives gun owners a bad name and why not everyone should have access to the 'net!
On the ND vid, thought he was a harmless, albeit clueless guy, doing stupid human tricks on the net. Now, I think he's dangerous to others also. :rolleyes:
I don't get the camo cowboy hat schtick either.....
I don't get the camo cowboy hat schtick either.....
If you have Boar Spears on the wall, might as well have a camo cowboy hat.
+1 having your finger in trigger guard before your muzzle is on target is not a good idea as evidenced by this ND.
You're right, people are over complicating this. The guy was simply going too fast a stuck his finger on the trigger before he should have.
Cameron
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-15-11, 16:33
Has to be seen to believe:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DK4PhRAVhPA
From that vid, shooting himself was not an "if" but "when" thing. At least he didn't shoot his balls off showing the above. Someone who really gives gun owners a bad name and why not everyone should have access to the 'net!
On the ND vid, thought he was a harmless, albeit clueless guy, doing stupid human tricks on the net. Now, I think he's dangerous to others also. :rolleyes:
Can someone PLEASE buy this joker some sleeves???
At least have the common courtesy to wear a t-shirt and tuck it in your drawers so I don't have to look at the bottom of his belly button. Dude, get that mole looked at!
God love him for trying. Could the Pantaeo guys give him a lifetime subscription to help this guy?
We all make mistakes and stuff gets out of hand but this guy scares me the more we see of him.
From that youtube page:
ODgr33n
Wouldn't it be cross cunt carry for you?
Dislike•Flag 2 months ago Like•Reply 34 people like this
Sk8RJOSH94
lol I could make so many jokes about this, but seriously...dont shoot ur dick off
2 months ago Like•Reply 14 people like this
theblackknight
07-20-11, 19:26
Had a buddy last weekend put a round thru his thigh,knee, and toe @ a USPSA. I guess it was his first time with one of those skeleton race fag holsters.
I went to the beach cause she had sunday off, but I checked the local results. He got 2nd place at one match, and dqed with one hell of a limp on the 2nd match.
MarshallDodge
07-20-11, 22:46
I have a Serpa for my 1911 and it has served me well, including some serious trail riding on the dirt bike. Since then I have tried the Safariland ALS system and like it much better so the Serpa sits at the bottom of the holster drawer.
The shooter can blame this on whatever he wants but it was completely his fault. If you watch the slo-mo, his finger did not accidentally bump the trigger, it curled around and was on the trigger well after the gun had cleared the holster but still early enough to drill himself in the leg.
The release button on the Serpa does not put your finger over the trigger on a 1911 but above it, along the frame. Maybe not as high as most would like it to be, but still in a safe position. There have been many thousands of draws from Serpa holsters with guns that have no safeties and the shooters managed to do things right without shooting themselves. Lucky? I think not.
He is going to be on Tosh.O
http://tosh.comedycentral.com/video-clips/preview---uncensored---web-redemption---i-just-shot-myself?xrs=synd_facebook
ForTehNguyen
11-07-11, 17:12
Marines adopted the Serpa saying they didnt find any design flaw or trigger hooking problem. People just need to train.
http://militarygear.com/news/gear-scout-reviews-serpa-level-2-holster/
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2011/09/28/usmc-adopts-the-controversial-blackhawk-serpa-holster/
In an emailed response to Marine Corps Times’ questions, officials at MARCORSYSCOM said the holster was put through rigorous safety tests in July by Marines assigned to Quantico’s Weapons Training Battalion. After giving the holster to Marines of varied pistol-shooting abilities, from expert to novice, Weapons Training Battalion concluded the SERPA holster is safe for issue, according to MARCORSYSCOM.
“We did not see a trigger-hooking problem,” officials said. “We found the SERPA design allowed natural positioning of the trigger finger during the draw so that it was straight and off the trigger when drawn. … Weapons Training Battalion, our premier weapons trainers, oversaw the evaluation of the holsters and no safety concerns were identified by the users or the observers of the evaluation.”
I'm not making this video for sympathy and I'm not making it to be ridiculed.
ROFL!!! Too late for that dipshit!
Marines adopted the Serpa saying they didnt find any design flaw or trigger hooking problem.
First time in history the Marines have been wrong?
;)
Far too many highly regarded individuals in the firearms training industry point to the design as being problematic for me to throw out their opinions in exchange for the opinion of a bureaucratic evaluation and procurement process.
montanadave
11-07-11, 19:38
He is going to be on Tosh.O
http://tosh.comedycentral.com/video-clips/preview---uncensored---web-redemption---i-just-shot-myself?xrs=synd_facebook
Daniel Tosh asks, "If you were going to finish the job on yourself, what gun would you use?"
:lol:
Now I gotta watch to see what Tex said.
"after the shot went off, my training took over......i called my parents....."
if there is one thing I am glad he retained from all that training... was the part where he calls his mom
Hello Mom....... you know how you said always wear clean shorts in case of an accident.............:jester:
FromMyColdDeadHand
11-09-11, 00:19
Daniel Tosh asks, "If you were going to finish the job on yourself, what gun would you use?"
:lol:
Now I gotta watch to see what Tex said.
I was willing to give this guy a break, but I just watched/endured the Tosh.o segment. Good god that guy is a tool. Not much a 'redemption'.
Iraq Ninja
11-09-11, 07:55
Don't forget that Tex is directly involved in another accidental shooting now-
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d127/Iraqninja/tex.jpg
Heavy Metal
11-09-11, 09:07
Marines adopted the Serpa saying they didnt find any design flaw or trigger hooking problem. People just need to train.
http://militarygear.com/news/gear-scout-reviews-serpa-level-2-holster/
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2011/09/28/usmc-adopts-the-controversial-blackhawk-serpa-holster/
And how does an Argumentum ad Populum fallacy prove that 'people just need to train'? I guess people who drove Ford Pintos just needed to train to not get into accidents too?
The phrase that is coming to mind here is "Jumped the Shark" as in Marine Procurement has just.
You do undersand what gun and in what condition the Marines will be carrying in those holsters don't you? A Beretta Double Action with a Slide-Mounted safety.
.....and advocacy of "training" by an institution that does a pretty good job of paying nothing but lip-service to training with a pistol in the first place, and sees nothing wrong with handing the things out like confetti to those next-best-thing-to untrained in pistol use.
Man-tastic.
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