View Full Version : Reference "5.56 is bad for home defense 'cause' thread?
Have gotten myself into one of those debates in the "5.56 is bad for home defense because it over penetrates which is why handgun rnds are a better choice" type threads on another forum, and was hoping for the definitive thread would be a sticky here, but no luck.
Is there a definitive source to correct that fallacy, and can I make a suggestion it be made a sticky here or some other section? Or, due to lack of neurons, did I miss it?
This being M4C, and the above being one of the most common fallacies of the 5.56, a reference thread (as sticky?) would be helpful.
Eric Kozowski
07-04-11, 17:52
http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=14&Itemid=26
Yes, it's on the Oly Arms web site, but it's the best link I've found to R. K. Taubert's article.
http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=14&Itemid=26
Yes, it's on the Oly Arms web site, but it's the best link I've found to R. K. Taubert's article.
Thanx, will give it a read. Seems like it would be a great stick topic for Doc Roberts et al.
Have you tried this: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=44869?
Have you tried this: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=44869?
I did not! Thanx
It's funny how some guys claim that .223/5.56 is no good because it can't penetrate barriers, and can only kill chipmunks then say that it will kill your neighbors 10 houses over.
4thPointOfContact
07-05-11, 20:06
It's funny how some guys claim that .223/5.56 is no good because it can't penetrate barriers, and can only kill chipmunks then say that it will kill your neighbors 10 houses over.
That's because at close range the bullet is still rising, so it has less power. When the bullet starts dropping again it picks up power and that's when it can kill your neighbors just by passing within a foot of them.:lol:
I can't remember which show it was on (Personal Defense, Guns and Ammo, etc.) but they shot .223/5.56 @ a piece of dry wall @ like 5 yrds. It fragmented through the first wall into 3-4 pieces and I think 1 or 2 of those might have made it through the second piece of dry wall that was placed like 5 yrds away from the first. I'm pretty sure they weren't using a bonded softpoint.
Hispeedal2
07-07-11, 08:41
I used this NAVSEA video when I was an instructor to explain the importance of building description for micro-IPB. It should answer your questions regarding military ball penetration.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKhMOfaYwvE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w22M1DAQ59I&feature=related
Any idea what types of ammo are being used in this video?
whatever happened to the shotgun or the pistol?
The video is poorly done if you wish to assess terminal ballistics, as the testing FAILED to capture the projectiles in an adequate tissue simulant after they first penetrated through the intermediate barriers--without doing that, there is NO way to determine what kind of damage potential the projectiles retained.
Hispeedal2
07-07-11, 18:15
Any idea what types of ammo are being used in this video?
On the M16 part, I would assume standard M855 since we don't shoot anything else through M16s... generally. The video doesn't say, so that's just an assumption.
This is an old debate. I think it is impossible to know what will happen on the other side of a wall. There is entirely too many variables. Everything from 2x4 to wire to conduit could be in that wall. This inch may have little effect on the projectile and the next inch may stop a round cold.
Terminal velocity after penetration is a moot point when we are talking about people's family on the other side. No one wants ANY projectile to penetrate in that case, but that is the choice one has to make when presented that situation. Just be safe and keep in mind whats behind your back stop... there are no guarantees. That goes for carbines, pistols, or shottys.
When the job calls for penetrating a wall to stop a target, shoot until you have good reason to believe the target is down. The first round might not penetrate, but you will likely get through there eventually.
This is an old debate. I think it is impossible to know what will happen on the other side of a wall. There is entirely too many variables. Everything from 2x4 to wire to conduit could be in that wall. This inch may have little effect on the projectile and the next inch may stop a round cold.
When the job calls for penetrating a wall to stop a target, shoot until you have good reason to believe the target is down. The first round might not penetrate, but you will likely get through there eventually.
Yeah, I found this interesting to say the least but there are too many variables. I still would like to know what the most probable round what used in the .308. Copper/lead FMJ or steel penetrator? The video gives the impression that a few well armed guys hosing down a building with the right ammo could turn the structure into a pile of rubble if they kept dumping mags/belts into it. And with a .50bmg +/- 40mm launcher it could happen... :)
dookie1481
07-11-11, 20:28
I can't remember which show it was on (Personal Defense, Guns and Ammo, etc.) but they shot .223/5.56 @ a piece of dry wall @ like 5 yrds. It fragmented through the first wall into 3-4 pieces and I think 1 or 2 of those might have made it through the second piece of dry wall that was placed like 5 yrds away from the first. I'm pretty sure they weren't using a bonded softpoint.
Rob Pincus shooting? I saw that in my CCW course.
whatever happened to the shotgun or the pistol?
Nothing. The AR (can) give you better capability than either of these two weapons.
It does come down to personal preference, but if you are not comfortable using an AR for HD purposes, you might want to re-think this position.
C4
Nothing. The AR (can) give you better capability than either of these two weapons.
It does come down to personal preference, but if you are not comfortable using an AR for HD purposes, you might want to re-think this position.
C4
I was interested in there performance against the brick and cinder block...
Rob Pincus shooting? I saw that in my CCW course.
No idea. Sorry.
I was interested in there performance against the brick and cinder block...
Minimal is the answer.
my only argument against an AR for a home defense weapon (other than not owning one at the moment) is that i feel for me, at close ranges and around barriers i'm more proficient with a pistol. It's just a much easier weapon to use indoors, and i think something you'd be more likely to grab when you just hear a noise, as it's handier. ballistically the AR is obviously a much better platform.
my only argument against an AR for a home defense weapon (other than not owning one at the moment) is that i feel for me, at close ranges and around barriers i'm more proficient with a pistol. It's just a much easier weapon to use indoors, and i think something you'd be more likely to grab when you just hear a noise, as it's handier. ballistically the AR is obviously a much better platform.
How is your accuracy? You should not look past how easy the carbine is to shoot at under 10 yards. At 10 yards, with a pistol, throwing a shot is very easy to do.
How is your accuracy? You should not look past how easy the carbine is to shoot at under 10 yards. At 10 yards, with a pistol, throwing a shot is very easy to do.
I agree. I spent some time training in a live fire shoot house with my AR and I was surprised how easy it was to maneuver and make accurate quick shots at "inside a home" distances. You may get slightly better maneuverability with a pistol, but I agree that it's easier to throw a shot with a pistol. With a little practice, an AR can be very maneuverable and gives you more preferable ballistic performance against a threat IMO.
Minimal is the answer.
Interesting enough even though we don't have all the details on the construction. I just remembered that the distance was like, what, 15 meters? Oh, and cookoff. Can't forget that. Kind of eliminates the whole reducing the structure to rubble w/ multiple shooters using small arms. In a quick manner that is.
my only argument against an AR for a home defense weapon (other than not owning one at the moment) is that i feel for me, at close ranges and around barriers i'm more proficient with a pistol. It's just a much easier weapon to use indoors, and i think something you'd be more likely to grab when you just hear a noise, as it's handier. ballistically the AR is obviously a much better platform.
To each their own. Speed/power is fine but accuracy is final.
How is your accuracy? You should not look past how easy the carbine is to shoot at under 10 yards. At 10 yards, with a pistol, throwing a shot is very easy to do.
10 yards is probably on the tail end of what could be considered justifiable defense. But from a low ready with a pistol i can ding an 8.5x11 sheet of paper at 10 yards inside of a second reliably. Inside of 1 yard it would seem the carbine would be a liability.
I'd certainly like a carbine and some time and training with one, but given that i have a pistol on me most of the time and a limited training budget, the time and effort goes into pistol shooting.
In the hands of someone who knows how to use ones, carbines are anything but a liability at close near contact distances.
10 yards is probably on the tail end of what could be considered justifiable defense.
10 yards? Not sure I understand.
An armed intruder is dangerous much further than 10 yards away.
Also, I don't know of any castle doctrine states that sets a range limit on what distance you can shoot an intruder in your house.
Now, in many homes you may not have more than 10 yards of distance from one point to another, but that is a different matter entirely.
Now, in many homes you may not have more than 10 yards of distance from one point to another, but that is a different matter entirely.
That was me lifting a random number from someone else.
Point is inside my house there could be shots long enough to outright miss a body. I do not know what my brain is going to do to me if I have to do something, but I know it will have a harder time ****ing me with a carbine.
Call me old school, but I also see a carbine as a far superior impact/striking weapon to a pistol. Especially since all my serious pistols are plastic framed.
10 yards is probably on the tail end of what could be considered justifiable defense.
Incorrect. A justified shoot is a justified shoot. Couple that with the fact that most states have some form of a castle doctrine you the distance really does not matter.
But from a low ready with a pistol i can ding an 8.5x11 sheet of paper at 10 yards inside of a second reliably. Inside of 1 yard it would seem the carbine would be a liability.
I have seen good "square range" shooters miss a full size human target in a shoot house from 6 feet away. How? They were surprised and jerk the hell out of the trigger.
As I have said many times on this forum, I am no longer impressed with people’s ability on the square range. Show me how well you move and shoot in a kill house.
I'd certainly like a carbine and some time and training with one, but given that i have a pistol on me most of the time and a limited training budget, the time and effort goes into pistol shooting.
A pistol is just fine, but if you have the time or ability, always switch to a long gun.
Remember that unless you have had room clearing training with your pistol, then you are most likely even to worse off with it than you would be with a carbine. Why? Because it is much easier to throw a round a close distances.
C4
Call me old school, but I also see a carbine as a far superior impact/striking weapon to a pistol. Especially since all my serious pistols are plastic framed.
There is not only that, but the retention aspects are much improved as well. Granted, there are more opportunities for them to grab it as well, but their hands on the gun should not impact function nearly as much as with a handgun.
There is not only that, but the retention aspects are much improved as well. Granted, there are more opportunities for them to grab it as well, but their hands on the gun should not impact function nearly as much as with a handgun.
A long gun with a good sling is better in terms of weapon retention. Our training actually teaches to let go of the long gun if a suspect grabs it (very hard to do, instinct is to death grip it). The idea is that they won't get it away from you if you have a good tactical sling and their hands will be tied up while yours are free to inflict as much damage as humanly possible on them (them grabbing the rifle is a deadly threat all by itself).
As for use for HD, a long gun is much easier to hit with under stress than a handgun. Much easier. I've spent some time in a shoot house as well as having done countless moving and shooting drills and the AR always wins. A mediocre rifle shooter will dominate a good handgun shooter every time.
If a handgun is what you have then by all means, train with it and use it. But if you have access to a long gun, train with it and go to it first.
In case you haven't noticed, I've used the term long gun alot. A shotgun is also much better than a handgun. I still prefer the AR to the shotgun, however, due to my level of training is higher with the AR and I don't care for the excessive penetration common with 12ga defensive loads.
I have seen good "square range" shooters miss a full size human target in a shoot house from 6 feet away.
BTDT. It's almost inconceivable to the human mind one can miss a human sized target literally from arms distance until you have actually done it yourself.
Once it's happened to you, and you have that "how the fu&% could I possibly have missed that??!!!" moment, one does not really appreciate the reality of your statement I think.
Poor light, target moving, you moving, pressure, etc, missing a human sized target from up close and personal distances is surprisingly common from what I have seen, but I'm far from LSHD type.
Point being as you said, anyone who thinks they can't/wont miss a human sized target right in front of them with that handgun is dead wrong in my experience.
exiledtoIA
07-14-11, 10:25
Grant, thanks for making this point. BTDT, first time in a class that had a shoothouse. I found out that it is possible to miss ( twice ) a target at a measured distance of 42". Had it been real life the target would have gotten his hair trimmed and maybe a few powder burns.
I have seen good "square range" shooters miss a full size human target in a shoot house from 6 feet away. How? They were surprised and jerk the hell out of the trigger.
As I have said many times on this forum, I am no longer impressed with people’s ability on the square range. Show me how well you move and shoot in a kill house.
deadlyfire
07-14-11, 12:32
Wouldn't an SBR be appropriate for a home-defense weapon, instead of a 16" long gun.
Wouldn't an SBR be appropriate for a home-defense weapon, instead of a 16" long gun.
Yes.
C4
Cincinnatus
07-14-11, 13:41
I remember reading an Ayoob article a few years back about a guy who shot two assailants with a Mini 14. Because it was a select fire weapon, he faced all sorts of extra BS in court because it was an "evil machinegun" that was used.
Depending on the state and the jury you get, this kind of thing could probably happen with an AR, too. Of course, having won the fight and survived is the more important consideration, but would an SBR or use of a suppressor, or even just an AR itself create this kind of problem more than would a pistol or shotgun? Just picture the prosecution holding up for the jury your "evil assault weapon."
If they can put you away for using an AR over a pistol you probably ****ed up in the first place.
Cincinnatus
07-14-11, 13:45
If they can put you away for using an AR over a pistol you probably ****ed up in the first place.
It would seem that way on the surface, but in the Ayoob article (wish I could fiind a link), it was clearly a justified shoot, but the prosecution used the fact that it was a select-fire weapon to demagogue the issue and make the defender look like the villain.
I know this has been back and forth in the past, but I will see to it that my overpriced lawyer knows that I chose my weapon based on what local LE would use.
But this could be (and is) a whole new thread.
Cincinnatus
07-14-11, 13:52
I know this has been back and forth in the past, but I will see to it that my overpriced lawyer knows that I chose my weapon based on what local LE would use.
But this could be (and is) a whole new thread.
Good call. I will start another thread on this topic and link to it here so as not to draw away from ballistics of 5.56 in HD scenarios.
Here is the new thread to discuss this other subject further: http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=1047454#post1047454
It would seem that way on the surface, but in the Ayoob article (wish I could fiind a link), it was clearly a justified shoot, but the prosecution used the fact that it was a select-fire weapon to demagogue the issue and make the defender look like the villain.
Anything is possible. With that said, I would lose ZERO sleep over using a suppressed SBR for HD.
C4
It would seem that way on the surface, but in the Ayoob article (wish I could fiind a link), it was clearly a justified shoot, but the prosecution used the fact that it was a select-fire weapon to demagogue the issue and make the defender look like the villain.
Anyone else tired of Ayoob's pole jumping over mouse turd histrionics?
Seriously, the guy just feeds off the unreasonable fears of gunowners and has made a serious living spreading terror and then cashing in on it.
Personally, I don't think much of the guy, as he is kind of a leach, who feeds off, creates, and magnifies people's fears.
While I think a long gun is definitely part of the home defense kit, in light of the Tucson shooting, it might not always be the default choice. I recently heard a knock at an upstairs door, off a deck, during the day. Long story short, it was the local Sheriff, and he saw the gate open, and dropped by to discuss something about responding to our alarm. I was carrying under concealment, and I know that I, and most likely the Sheriff, was happy that I didn't answer the door with an AR or 870 in hand.
Anyone else tired of Ayoob's pole jumping over mouse turd histrionics?
Seriously, the guy just feeds off the unreasonable fears of gunowners and has made a serious living spreading terror and then cashing in on it.
Personally, I don't think much of the guy, as he is kind of a leach, who feeds off, creates, and magnifies people's fears.
Ayoob's whole 'look bad in court" argument sates back 25-30 years when most cops were armed with revolvers and probably did not have hollowpoints.
Fast forward a few decades and now a high capacity handgun loaded with modern hollowpoints is standard issue to most police; AR's are now the most popular police rifle, and there are more companies that produce ARs in the US than any other longarm. Plus, you have more states now that have castle doctrine or will-issue concealled carry.
It is not the same environment.
When people on certain less sophisticated gun forums trot out a case of someone getting in legal trouble with a so-called assault gun, they typically did something very wrong that would ahve gotten them in trouble no matter what firearm they used.
There was a situation where two residents of an apartment complex had a long going feud and one threatened the other in the common hallway. The person who was threatened responded by returning to his apartment, retrieving an SKS, returning to the common hallway where he was threatened, and shot and killed the person who had threatened him. It's hard to argue self defense or unavoidability when you leave the scene of a dispute with someone you know to the safety of your apartment at which case the threat is over, retrieve a gun, return to the scene, and kill the person who you were having an ongoing dispute with.
anyway . . .
While I think a long gun is definitely part of the home defense kit, in light of the Tucson shooting, it might not always be the default choice. I recently heard a knock at an upstairs door, off a deck, during the day. Long story short, it was the local Sheriff, and he saw the gate open, and dropped by to discuss something about responding to our alarm. I was carrying under concealment, and I know that I, and most likely the Sheriff, was happy that I didn't answer the door with an AR or 870 in hand.
This is a good example of why a longarm isn't always the best choice for every situation.
On another note, if you think there is some type of threat that warrants you having a firearm on your person, I hope you have some way of determining it is safe to open the door before doing so--be it a peephole, nearby window, etc.
Anyone else tired of Ayoob's pole jumping over mouse turd histrionics?
Me. For that and his repeated denigration of wound ballistics experts like Dr. Fackler and for his support of energy transfer/stopping power idiots like Marshall and Sanow. Ayoob is a hack that should stick to policework and leave science and physiology to people who actually have training in those areas. His bullshit ammo tests were always such fun to read too. Amazing how any round in any caliber made by Cor-Bon had superior "stopping power" to anything else. :rolleyes:
Dirtyboy333
07-15-11, 01:44
I like rifles more than pistols but I wholeheartedly (but respectfully) disagree with the notion that a long gun is better in a normal HD situation.
I've been the victim of 2 home invasions (didnt know at the time, but i moved into an apartment that a local dealer just moved out of:mad: No, it wasnt your normal run-down crack house. It was a very nice place so obviously he didnt "get high on his own supply":p) and let me just say that it happens so fast that its hard to comprehend anything. I now carry concealed throughout my own house (different home though).
Remember, your not expecting anything, your in your boxers with no shoes, your sleeping, your in the shower, your on the couch concentrating on a tv show etc.
The first time it happened i didn't have time to get to my pistol 20 feet away and luckily i only got the shit kicked outta me. The second time i had just enough time to get the pistol beside my bed and rack the slide in one motion (which never would have happened if they didn't really screw up).
In my opinion, no amount of training (theres no time to think)would have prepared me for this. My instincts and reflex's kicked in and that was it.
Anyway, regarding a long gun vs. pistol.
The only way that i can see a rifle being successful most of the time is if you were to carry it everywhere you go throughout the house for every single normal activity you do. I realize that sometimes there are home invasions where the homeowner will hear something and have enough time to prepare himself but i wouldn't count on it. If i would have been carrying a rifle with me the 1st time i was invaded it probably would have gotten me killed because they were on my back (literally) before i knew what was happening. Now, i wrestled around for probably 15 seconds trying to free my backside while they had their arms wrapped around my front trying to throw me to the ground as well as about 3 hits to the back of the head. If i would have have my pistol on my inner waist (like i usually do) i could have easily pulled it and wrapped it around the side of my body since my arms were only restricted at chest height by their wrapped up arms. Basically everything below my mid-bicep was free.
Also, as far as maneuverability i also feel the pistol wins hands down. Im sure if you had time to think while getting robbed a trained individual would do very well with a rifle/carbine but with a pistol you can peak around corners, push open doors with one hand (but still be ready) and mainly push off an attacker while trying to back away to create space while still being in control of your weapon etc.
The only point i'm trying to make is that its been my experience that a normal home invasion happens so fast (to the victim) that its very likely there will be (or extremely close to being) physical contact all while being at a huge disadvantage by being surprised which would make the pistol a better choice. Of course YMMV
To give an example of how fast an everyday situation can turn bad: The 1st invasion started like this: very good friend called and was on his way over (5 min drive)..... Knock on the door, confident it was my friend i quickly looked through the window and saw a guy in a hood (daytime and cold outside) who i guess resembled my friend enough that i didn't notice anything strange in the quick glance i took before opening the door (I live in a low crime town so even if i would have saw the stranger i probably would have opened the door to see what he wanted anyway). From the split instant i remember opening the latch my memory goes from that point directly to trying to fight people off my back and nothing in between. It turns out (by the huge mark/bruising straight down my forehead) that the instant i leaned forward and unlatched the door the perp kicked it which smashed the corner of the door into my forehead. So, between being mentally unprepared and getting stunned by the impact, i have no recollection of the entry they made or how they got on my back. In fact, before the 1st punch was thrown to the back of my head i was under the impression it was my friend just pissing around with me (bc i didn't remember the door kick).
Anyway, sorry for the long story i'm just trying to remind people of how fast these things can (and usually) happen.
Pistols certainly have their place, but there is a reason why SWAT teams and military organizations use 5.56 mm carbines for indoors close quarters combat, even at contact distances...
I've been the victim of 2 home invasions (didnt know at the time, but i moved into an apartment that a local dealer just moved out of:mad: No, it wasnt your normal run-down crack house. It was a very nice place so obviously he didnt "get high on his own supply":p) and let me just say that it happens so fast that its hard to comprehend anything. I now carry concealed throughout my own house (different home though).
I'm sorry to hear about your experiences, and as they say in AA (AR's anonymous) thank you for sharing. I am NOT trying to talk down to you or lecture at your expense, as many home invasions begin with the victim opening the door. In your case you were expecting someone and mistakenly opened the door, but anyway . . .
I think what you wrote emphasizes the importance of having good locks/doors/alarms, etc. to deter and slow down any home invader as well as never opening the door unless you are positive of their identity.
it is easy to overlook the above when we get wrapped up in the discussion of defensive firearms.
Dirtyboy333
07-15-11, 02:56
I'm sorry to hear about your experiences, and as they say in AA (AR's anonymous) thank you for sharing. I am NOT trying to talk down to you or lecture at your expense, as many home invasions begin with the victim opening the door. In your case you were expecting someone and mistakenly opened the door, but anyway . . .
I think what you wrote emphasizes the importance of having good locks/doors/alarms, etc. to deter and slow down any home invader as well as never opening the door unless you are positive of their identity.
it is easy to overlook the above when we get wrapped up in the discussion of defensive firearms.
Oh i agree......I made a stupid decision by opening the door without identifying the person. I never thought that it would happen to me haha I was just being careless. You can bet your ass that i check everything now. The 2nd incident i was sleeping in my bed and they kicked the door down (literally flat to the ground)
Doc: I completely understand your point about SWAT etc. using 5.56 etc. but they're prepared and have had time to prepare. As a citizen i would have a hard time carrying a carbine around the house with me.
BTW: Ive never had a chance to thank you for all your great write-ups on here. They're informationally priceless!!! Thank you;)
Oh i agree......I made a stupid decision by opening the door without identifying the person. I never thought that it would happen to me haha I was just being careless. You can bet your ass that i check everything now. The 2nd incident i was sleeping in my bed and they kicked the door down (literally flat to the ground)
And that is another opening even of home invasions and burglary--kicking the door in. There are products on the market you can buy that make it harder from steel doors and frams to wrought iron security storm doors that go outside to special locks to products like this doordevil that makes it harder to kick the door in. http://www.doordevil.com/. But these are expensive and may not be an option if you rent.
RE DOCGKR:
BTW: Ive never had a chance to thank you for all your great write-ups on here. They're informationally priceless!!! Thank you;)
Exactly right. The information and contributions he makes to this forum are invaluable.
I don't think anyone is advocating using only an AR carbine for home security. The carbine, shotgun and handgun all have their strengths & weaknesses
Oh i agree......I made a stupid decision by opening the door without identifying the person. I never thought that it would happen to me haha I was just being careless. You can bet your ass that i check everything now. The 2nd incident i was sleeping in my bed and they kicked the door down (literally flat to the ground)
Doc: I completely understand your point about SWAT etc. using 5.56 etc. but they're prepared and have had time to prepare. As a citizen i would have a hard time carrying a carbine around the house with me.
BTW: Ive never had a chance to thank you for all your great write-ups on here. They're informationally priceless!!! Thank you;)
I'm sorry to hear about your repeat home invasion problems and I want to first say I'm glad you're ok. I may be a cop but you certainly have more experience as the victim of home invasion than I do. I frequently speak to victims of home invasion, but I've never had it happen to me.
I take your point about time necessary to prepare. That is why most LE shootings are with handguns, not long guns. The whole idea behind a handgun is the ease of carry and portability that make it accessible 100% of the time. In no way did I suggest not using a handgun, I just meant that when given the option I would always choose a rifle.
Interestingly enough, if someone were to break into my home during the day I would likely only have a handgun as I carry one on my person and I would be relatively close the the likely entry points. If they break in at night I'm far more likely to have a rifle (with a good weapon light and optic BTW) as I keep one ready by my bed and my bedroom is not spacially close to the likely entry points.
As suggested, I have also hardened my home against intruders. Unfortunately it is becoming a more common threat for criminals to attempt to attack LEO's at their homes off duty. I take my family's safety very seriously. My wife wouldn't let me put bars on the windows (yes, I asked) but things like alarms, high security locks, re-inforced door frames, and entry resistant window film were ok. Just some things to think about, especially in your situation.
One last thing, can someone post a link to the Tuscon shooting referenced above?
The shooting referenced would be Jose Guerena. He came to the door with an AR and allegedly pointed it at LE just after they breached the front door, then was shot. There was a SWAT truck with lights running in the driveway, they ran the siren and announced before breaching. Going to the door with ANY gun at that point was a very bad idea so I don't get it being referenced here as a reason the AR is bad for HD.
I'm familiar with that incident. I didn't think it was the one referenced as I don't imagine the outcome would have been any different had the gun been a 30-30 or a S&W revolver. Regardless of what your thoughts are on the incident, I don't think the weapon type had anything to do with the outcome.
I don't imagine the outcome would have been any different had the gun been a 30-30 or a S&W revolver.
I agree but don't know of any other shooting there that involved an AR.
The shooting referenced would be Jose Guerena. He came to the door with an AR and allegedly pointed it at LE just after they breached the front door, then was shot. There was a SWAT truck with lights running in the driveway, they ran the siren and announced before breaching. Going to the door with ANY gun at that point was a very bad idea so I don't get it being referenced here as a reason the AR is bad for HD.
I was the person that referenced the Tucson shooting, and if you read my original post, I never said that an AR is bad for HD. In fact, I believe that an AR or 870 is ideal for HD, but that it may not be the best choice for every possible threat -- as in my recent experience with someone at an odd door, up my remote drive, turning out to be the Sheriff. There may be times that you want to be armed, but not visibly armed, and that is a bit harder with an AR in your hands. :)
Dirtyboy333
07-15-11, 18:23
I'm sorry to hear about your repeat home invasion problems and I want to first say I'm glad you're ok. I may be a cop but you certainly have more experience as the victim of home invasion than I do. I frequently speak to victims of home invasion, but I've never had it happen to me.
I take your point about time necessary to prepare. That is why most LE shootings are with handguns, not long guns. The whole idea behind a handgun is the ease of carry and portability that make it accessible 100% of the time. In no way did I suggest not using a handgun, I just meant that when given the option I would always choose a rifle.
Interestingly enough, if someone were to break into my home during the day I would likely only have a handgun as I carry one on my person and I would be relatively close the the likely entry points. If they break in at night I'm far more likely to have a rifle (with a good weapon light and optic BTW) as I keep one ready by my bed and my bedroom is not spacially close to the likely entry points.
As suggested, I have also hardened my home against intruders. Unfortunately it is becoming a more common threat for criminals to attempt to attack LEO's at their homes off duty. I take my family's safety very seriously. My wife wouldn't let me put bars on the windows (yes, I asked) but things like alarms, high security locks, re-inforced door frames, and entry resistant window film were ok. Just some things to think about, especially in your situation.
One last thing, can someone post a link to the Tuscon shooting referenced above?
I appreciate you and Ed's security recommendations and I'm definately looking into it (I no longer rent). See the problem is that it happened like 6 or 7 years ago and now I live in a nice neighborhood so I have already gotten very complacent (+no kids, yet) I mean I no longer open doors without checking but I just keep procrastinating on the security upgradeds which is stupid. You guys have offered some good advice and this thread has jolted my memory so I see myself heading to Lowes this weekend.
I was like 21 or 22 when both instances happened so I'll just chalk up my bad moves to being a "dumbass kid". :sarcastic:
I went through 2 home invasions as well. Mine was slow motion though, and they were in our house for 27 minutes, pistol whipping a friend. I had two of my pistols and a shotgun behind the door. You cant say what you WILL do because you dont know. No one does.
I had to listen to all kinds of my stupid jackass friends saying "I would have done this" ...."Dude why didnt you just grab it".
I now carry in my home also. The really scary part though, was my girlfriend almost came over that night with her 17 month old daughter but I told her I was tired. Had she been there that night it would have ended different
You never know "For sure"
Dirtyboy333
07-16-11, 00:26
Sorry u had to go through that man. I used to have a roomate who kept a shotgun behind the front door but anytime I would see it there I would pick it up and put it under the couch (which was much farther inside the house) and then tell/yell at him about it. Lol it was after my two experiences.
The reason was because I lived upstairs in a neat loft (which was almost like a whole separate apartment) and we almost always were hanging out up there. Also, someone kicks the door in you can never get to it as well as there being a chance the bad guy gets it. I still know alot of "old-timers" that do this but they swear by it and have much more experience than I so i bite my lip.
Question: Just for a real world example, is that what happened in your case? ie: they barged in so fast that you either couldn't get to your gun or would have taken a major risk of getting shot/hurt if you would have went for it?
Also, neither of mine lasted anywhere near 27 min. but I know what you mean by slow motion bc that's how mine was too. The "fast" part I'm referring to is at the very first instant your being invaded and before my adrenaline was pumping. After that, the assault did seem like it was in slow motion. Both of mine were definately over in less than a minuet.
BufordTJustice
07-16-11, 04:08
Dirtyboy,
I am truly glad that you and BCMjunkie are okay. I say this, not just as a Deputy, but as another regular guy....and I say it without caveat.
I work in the Orlando area and I can tell you that, without any sarcasm, a home invasion cannot occur without entry being made (or granted) into the home.
Home hardening techniques are a mandatory first step. You can replace the screws in your door/lockplate/hinges with 2 &1/2" monster screws for cheap is an easy way to start that can be done even if you rent.
I once stayed in a VERY high crime area of Orlando for one year before becoming a cop, but after I started owning guns. I replaced every other screw in the door hinges, lock plate, deadbolt, and the door frame hinges with hardened 2.5" drywall screws (skinny enough to not require the drilling of pilot holes and still not split the wood frame). It was a metal door. I was out of town on business and returned a few days later to find an ENORMOUS foot-shaped dent in my door and my door jamb cracked, but still intact. The door had withstood a break-in attempt and remained secure.
I spoke with the property manager about it and he had never seen a door at that property withstand an attempt and hold fast.
This is just ONE thing that can be done to discourage home invaders. I can tell you that, if they are not successful in making a fast entry, 9 times out of 10 they will completely abort the effort. If you can harden your entry points enough to slow them down....your chances of success go through the roof.
Lastly, I do carry a handgun on or near me (literally, always within arms' reach) everywhere in my home. I spend a lot of free time on my couch, and I usually will place my AR leaned-up against the couch cushions next to me (stock on the floor).
An AR or shotgun is terminally superior in all aspects to a handgun for the purposes of killing a human being (and that's really what all this boils down to, doesn't it?). If I'm in a lethal encounter, I want the bigger gun, that shoots faster and more accurately, and creates superior terminal wounds in my enemy.
It's been said that you bring a handgun to an incident where you're not sure there is a gun...you bring a Rifle/shotgun to a gunfight. I'm not telling anybody how to run their lives, but some quality live training from a respected trainer would serve you well. You're obviously more well versed in personal armed conflicts than most. And, yes, you did revert to the level of your training, which was none. I'm not making fun of you...we ALL revert to the level of our training. That's why many train so hard to turn proper training into instinct. It can be done, brother.... and I encourage you to do so.
Be safe, be smart, and train hard.
Traveshamockery
07-16-11, 05:36
The shooting referenced would be Jose Guerena. He came to the door with an AR and allegedly pointed it at LE just after they breached the front door, then was shot. There was a SWAT truck with lights running in the driveway, they ran the siren and announced before breaching. Going to the door with ANY gun at that point was a very bad idea so I don't get it being referenced here as a reason the AR is bad for HD.
I'm sorry for the thread diversion, but this is most definitely NOT what happened. He didn't come to the door - the SWAT officers kicked it in and fired over 70 shots at the two-tour Marine. I suggest anyone interested in the details of the Jose Guerena shooting check the following links.
Helmet cam video from the outside of Guerena's house (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XP0f00_JMak)
Summary of the story with links from Reason.com (http://reason.com/blog/2011/05/16/marine-survives-two-tours-in-i)
Again, apologies for the off topic response.
Dirtyboy333
07-16-11, 06:21
Points well taken BufordT. And yeah now that I'm older I see much more clearly on the home defense subject and instead of being lazy like I have been I'm actually going to do something about it.
I'm actually moments away from being an officer myself (hopefully) and I'll most likely see this kind of thing a good bit.
I was 21 or 22 when the first incident happened and I had just bought my 1st handgun (G19) and your right, I dint have any training at all. Although, I really don't know what firearms training would have done for me in that situation bc I wasn't armed but maybe they would have taught me to "always be armed" or "don't open the door like an idiot" :p and that sure would have helped.
I didn't yet mention it but on the second invasion i was much more prepared (after the 1st learning experience) to deal with the threat. I was still 21 or 22 with no formal training but my instincts did kick in and I feel they were pretty strong because the instant I became aware of the threat it was just 1 big reflex which included quickly ripping throwing the covers off me while at the same time rolling off the side of the bed, grabbing the gun while keeping my eyes on the two (maybe three) bad guys and racking the slide (yeah, now I know I shouts had it chambered but at the time I always had this stupid fear of sleep walking and shooting my GF or myself:suicide2:). Anyway, I was scared outta my mind and had the gun pointed right at them and I could have easily shot one but thank God I didn't. It was basically pitch black besides the very little ambient glow from the fish tank so when they either heard the slide rack or I just startled them by jumping outta bed so quickly, they had started their Turnaround to get the he'll outta there as fast as they could :eek: There was definately a few moments where they were facing me with gun pointed at them and honestly this was from like 7 or so feet away. Since they didn't come at me I luckily held my finger but I was right on the very edge of taking a shot. I had to check around two door corners before I could make out to the porch behind them but they were already 100-150 yards away getting in their car and with no car lights on I couldn't get their plates. My front porch was 15-20 feet tall with a long staircase leading up to it so they had to have been so scared the hurtled the railing and fell a good way because as fast as I checked the rooms (just quick head poke around the corner) and got to the porch there's no way they took the stairs and were that far away. Anyway, big cowboy footprint on my door which was laying on my kitchen floor. Landlord replaced it with a nice steel door but I moved out 3 days later.
Anyway, thanks for the tips and stay safe out there;)
Oh, forgot to mention, I'm MUCH more trained now then I was then but more is always better. Back then I was just a young punk who had an interest in guns and just enough money to get my 1st one. Ha
Sometimes I think people read these threads and think that the only weapon we advocate is a long gun- specifically AR. That isn't the case. But, if you have access to it and it is available then it would be the route to take.
I'm sure that the local LE wouldn't be happy if you answered the door with any firearm- long gun or pistol.
While I think a long gun is definitely part of the home defense kit, in light of the Tucson shooting, it might not always be the default choice. I recently heard a knock at an upstairs door, off a deck, during the day. Long story short, it was the local Sheriff, and he saw the gate open, and dropped by to discuss something about responding to our alarm. I was carrying under concealment, and I know that I, and most likely the Sheriff, was happy that I didn't answer the door with an AR or 870 in hand.
Sorry u had to go through that man. I used to have a roomate who kept a shotgun behind the front door but anytime I would see it there I would pick it up and put it under the couch (which was much farther inside the house) and then tell/yell at him about it. Lol it was after my two experiences.
The reason was because I lived upstairs in a neat loft (which was almost like a whole separate apartment) and we almost always were hanging out up there. Also, someone kicks the door in you can never get to it as well as there being a chance the bad guy gets it. I still know alot of "old-timers" that do this but they swear by it and have much more experience than I so i bite my lip.
Question: Just for a real world example, is that what happened in your case? ie: they barged in so fast that you either couldn't get to your gun or would have taken a major risk of getting shot/hurt if you would have went for it?
.
Well I was actually living with a co-worker, he always had people coming and going. One night Im sittin on the computer, about 15' from the door, behind me, my boss was sleeping in a chair, 20' back, another co-worker was ther, when I heard the knock I turned around and looked at my friend, it was really odd hearing a knock without a phone going off first.
I went to the door and looked through the window, two kids(black kids with hoods on) that looked like two kids that were over the night before, I opened the door and they asked for my boss, "ya come on in" Hey man someone here to see you, (wakes up) "what? who is it?" Then I hear 2 slides racking. ****.
So they start yelling "Where the **** the safe at!" Give us the cash get the safe!" Moved me to the couch with a pistol IN my face, It was a glock, 17 or 19, the other kid had a PPK. So Im on the couch at the far right side, the coworker to my left, and boss to my far left in a chair facing to my right.
He starts givin him money, my hands are up next to my head, pistol IN my forehead, they take him to the safe, come back a few minutes later, they start tellin us where the **** is the rest, that was all of it though. One gets on the coffe table and starts kickin him in the head over and over.
Then the kid with the gun in my face starts talkin about shooting one of us and they decide to pistol whip my boss. With one gun in my face, the other kid bends down about 5' away to un-chamber the round (no gun control or knowledge of a handgun)
For a split second I thought about grabbing the pistol in my face, he wasnt paying attention and his friend had no rounds in the chamber, but it left my head as fast as I thought about it, what if they didnt back me up. It would have been my fault if they got hurt.
After they pistol whipped him for a few minutes, the kid stood me up and decided to take me into a different room, It was staright up execution style, our hallway was super long and the end branched out into 3 other bedrooms, I got to the end and stopped, I said "where you want me homie". I seriously thought that was it.
Anyway they ended up shoving all 3 of us into a hall closet, the kind with accordian doors with the slats you can only see out". We could BARELY fit inside, Tupperware containers and shit breaking, the doors start closing and it was slow motion, I thought they were just gonna start unloading so they didnt have to watch it. But I heard footsteps and they ran out.
I watched the clock for 27 minutes and these ****S didnt even clear any of the other rooms. Sorry to hear about yours to man. It sucks and it totally changes the way you live. Im 32 now, this only happened 3 years ago. I kept logical, payed attention to everything, I didnt do anything stupid and no one got hurt.
BufordTJustice
07-16-11, 15:07
Points well taken BufordT. And yeah now that I'm older I see much more clearly on the home defense subject and instead of being lazy like I have been I'm actually going to do something about it.
I'm actually moments away from being an officer myself (hopefully) and I'll most likely see this kind of thing a good bit.
That's very cool. Best of luck to you! :)
Keep me update via PM on your status?
Dirtyboy333
07-16-11, 15:10
Well yeah, that's a really bad one to be involved in. Damn scary too!!! Well obviously u made the right choice. Good narration by the way, It almost felt like I was there. :eek
ETA: thanks BufordTjustice, I will!!!
Well yeah, that's a really bad one to be involved in. Damn scary too!!! Well obviously u made the right choice. Good narration by the way, It almost felt like I was there. :eek
ETA: thanks BufordTjustice, I will!!!
Lol ya it sucked, but "whatever dont kill you...".
I have been blessed with the gift of logic in really bad situations. No one should have to experience a home invasion. It totally ****s with you for quite awhile afterwords
Incorrect. A justified shoot is a justified shoot. Couple that with the fact that most states have some form of a castle doctrine you the distance really does not matter.
I have seen good "square range" shooters miss a full size human target in a shoot house from 6 feet away. How? They were surprised and jerk the hell out of the trigger.
As I have said many times on this forum, I am no longer impressed with people’s ability on the square range. Show me how well you move and shoot in a kill house.
A pistol is just fine, but if you have the time or ability, always switch to a long gun.
Remember that unless you have had room clearing training with your pistol, then you are most likely even to worse off with it than you would be with a carbine. Why? Because it is much easier to throw a round a close distances.
C4
good points...
very good points. thanks.
Dirtyboy333
07-17-11, 02:22
I'm sorry for the thread diversion, but this is most definitely NOT what happened. He didn't come to the door - the SWAT officers kicked it in and fired over 70 shots at the two-tour Marine. I suggest anyone interested in the details of the Jose Guerena shooting check the following links.
Helmet cam video from the outside of Guerena's house (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XP0f00_JMak)
Summary of the story with links from Reason.com (http://reason.com/blog/2011/05/16/marine-survives-two-tours-in-i)
Again, apologies for the off topic response.
WOW!!! Thanks for those links. I had no knowledge of this case because I had gotten so mad at all the news that i stopped watching it (feel much better:smile:).
most definitely NOT what happened. He didn't come to the door - the SWAT officers kicked it in...
"Guerena told his wife and son to hide inside a closet and he grabbed the AR-15 rifle, his wife said."
http://azstarnet.com/news/local/crime/article_d7d979d4-f4fb-5603-af76-0bef206f8301.html
I should have said he came towards/covered the door/entryway. He was not shot in the same room his wife was hiding in, according to her.
Again, I think the outcome would have been the same with any gun. Answering a knock at the door with a concealed handgun is quite different from allegedly pointing a gun at SWAT after the siren, knocking, and "sheriffs department-search warrant".
BufordTJustice
07-17-11, 18:49
I heard what happened to him. It was a HUGE, agency-ending level **** up. He didn't do anything wrong.
I would have been found dead with my rifle too. They executed him in his own home...the WRONG home.
That was a Kobayashi Maru (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobayashi_Maru).
Dirtyboy333
07-17-11, 22:07
"Guerena told his wife and son to hide inside a closet and he grabbed the AR-15 rifle, his wife said."
http://azstarnet.com/news/local/crime/article_d7d979d4-f4fb-5603-af76-0bef206f8301.html
I should have said he came towards/covered the door/entryway. He was not shot in the same room his wife was hiding in, according to her.
Again, I think the outcome would have been the same with any gun. Answering a knock at the door with a concealed handgun is quite different from allegedly pointing a gun at SWAT after the siren, knocking, and "sheriffs department-search warrant".
Correct, but the fact that you can answer the door with the handgun concealed in the first place gives it a huge advantage over the AR.
Yes, i agree that a long gun is going to be more effective ballistically and maybe thats what this is about. I like to mentally train myself that the handgun will be my primary(since it would be most likely what i'll have) home defense weapon and if i can get to my rifle, well that would be a bonus.
ETA: Thanks for the link: What a horrible case and screw up by the Sheriff's department.
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